The Imperial Guard: Are the Lacking Right Now?

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**Vaktathi**

aka_mythos wrote:
vostroyan second born wrote:
Yes the am elite choises are a joke as well as the fast attack options.
It's unfortunately the GW rule that Marine must always be better, that limits IG. Where IG elites end up being about a single extreme which makes them so narrowly beneficial they're mostly overpriced. I like Ratlings and I think they're fairly priced. They've never won me any games but what IG unit consistently does?

Ratlings dont really pack enough oomf for for any meaningful role anymore, and equivalents from other armies are just plain better. Eldar Rangers for example have the exact same weapon and "shoot+run" rules, but have better stats, get Shrouded instead of Stealth, are ObSec Troops, have access to better support, and cost about the same.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

G00fySmiley wrote:
Honestly I see IG and their tanks as the orks or tyranids of humanity. All this talk about making them tougher and more savable... most of their stuff is over costed for what they get, but an "elite" IG makes very little sense to me, they should have a high model count and take large amounts of casualties to get the job done. some of the stuff floated here like making heavy weapons teams t7 with a 3+ cover... seriously for the points that is absurd. What makes HWT good is that you can take a gak ton of them, they should be about 1/2 the points cost so you get a ton of shots and a ton of models. The exemptions are leman russ tanks which should be pretty beefy per the fluff and are the oen thing that is not just thrown away in droves to get something done.

eh, there are some well grounded "elite-ish" IG forces. Things like a DKoK Assault Brigade or Stormtrooper company consisting of well equipped and elite mechanized forces (though obviously not on par with Space Marines).

**CragHack**

vostroyan second born wrote:
Yes the am elite choises are a joke as well as the fast attack options.

Not if you take Vultures. Vultures are pretty good for their price and what they do. Ofc, that they are not oficially in the codex that's another talk...

**Ignatius**

One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

I think an interesting mechanic that could be implemented revolves around the idea of giving all leaders in the army- that is sergeants, officers, commissars, etc.- a special rule. Essentially add up the number of these leaders at the beginning of every turn and your army gains a certain benefit or two. Imagine the Dark Eldar Power from Pain rule, but centered on the existence of the command structure. Essentially, the more leaders still alive the better your army functions (as it should).

I don't know I'm just spitballing here.

**Kanluwen**

Ignatius wrote:
One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

Yeah...it's a "fixation with the deletion of units" that I don't like.

Or maybe it's just I want them to friggin' clean up the Codex and get rid of the garbage. Rough Riders have not, will not, and never have been relevant. There were a few gimmick lists involving them at times but even then they were useless.
Ratlings are the same thing.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

It's not a "niche playstyle for Guard". Blobs of Infantry are well-known, and there's a reason that there's references online to the "Conscript Tarpit" where it's Conscripts with a Priest in there.

And really, saying that you play those lists doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I play my Raptors as the Raven Guard Talon Strike Force, and it's done pretty well for me despite constantly playing against Tau(who negate ALL of the advantages that the TSF and its components grant.

If you were, say, to mention that you played those lists against certain others or anything of that nature--that's helpful. That lets us have a data point to start comparing notes about(Straken+Rough Riders+Guard Blobs does well v. Orks but not Marines, for example).

As it stands? You just threw out the fact that you play a list a certain way. Not how the list does for you or what you take within the list or whatever.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

So what if he's been shifted to the LOW spot? Just take him as an Unbound LOW if you need the Crutch Commander.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

It leaves us with the simple fact that there's a ton of things that can be done which aren't just "lol reduce points". And notice that NOBODY has said anything about adding to the survival attributes for the basic Guardsmen. The discussion regarding survival has been strictly regarding Heavy Weapon Teams--which are, at this point, a joke when it comes to surviving anything.

Also "making them flatout better" wouldn't interfere at all with the fluff of the Guard, unless your only exposure to the fluff of the Guard is from reading bolterporn where their role is to die in droves to let the Mary Sues get their objectives done.

We're talking about professional soldiery here, not the friggin' PDF.

I think an interesting mechanic that could be implemented revolves around the idea of giving all leaders in the army- that is sergeants, officers, commissars, etc.- a special rule. Essentially add up the number of these leaders at the beginning of every turn and your army gains a certain benefit or two. Imagine the Dark Eldar Power from Pain rule, but centered on the existence of the command structure. Essentially, the more leaders still alive the better your army functions (as it should).

That's as useless as Orders are now.

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

I think it would be cool if IG got the option to purchase off-table artillery and the ability to call in shots on enemy units in LoS with their vox casters. Maybe limit it to 1 piece per platoon or something so it doesn't get too ridiculous. That way infantry would actually be somewhat dangerous - you'd better kill that vox operator quick or you're gonna have Earthshaker rounds raining down on your head.

I think that would be much more realistic than the tape recorder vox casters we have now. The radio is an infantryman's most deadly weapon afterall.

**aka_mythos**

Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I think it would be cool if IG got the option to purchase off-table artillery and the ability to call in shots on enemy units in LoS with their vox casters. Maybe limit it to 1 piece per platoon or something so it doesn't get too ridiculous. That way infantry would actually be somewhat dangerous - you'd better kill that vox operator quick or you're gonna have Earthshaker rounds raining down on your head.

I think that would be much more realistic than the tape recorder vox casters we have now. The radio is an infantryman's most deadly weapon afterall.

I like the idea because it speaks to the what distinguishes the IG... A space marine army is about a company's worth of forces but while SM can fight larger battles many times their forces are more greatly distributed dealing with things on the other side of the planet... but the IG are almost always this massive force, where the players army is realistically only a small element of that massive force. Somewhere miles and miles away from the main battle should be IG firebases with artillery lined up for shooting great ranges.

In practical terms it isn't much different than a vox-caster carrying guardsmen effectively being armed with a demo-charge.

**master of ordinance**

Well, I have just returned from my club where one of my friends has been relishing about all the things his 30K legion gets and all the things his new psychic powers can do....
Really, with all these buffs Eldar, Tau and Marines keep on getting and all these fancy new units I dont know why I even bother turning up. Hell, GW might as well make a mechanic whereby your opponent(s) role a D6 each turn and on a '6' the IG player automatically loses - the outcome would be the same.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I think it would be cool if IG got the option to purchase off-table artillery and the ability to call in shots on enemy units in LoS with their vox casters. .

The old Imperial Armour book 2 used to allow us to do this. You could purchase Artillery shots as HS choices and then, after rolling for them on reserves, call them in with your command section. It was really fun but was sadly removed. I did use them a while back against a certain opponent of mine. He wanted a game without tanks and kept coming up with reasons why there couldnt be any (Bad terrain, cant get them through the narrow streets, etc).
So I built my list as an unbound one with 1000 points worth of strikes in it.

He turned up with a Legion of the Damned list including homebrewed LotD Terminators and the like and some homebrewed mary sue character who got to start on the table turn one (so he couldnt auto lose). So his turn two rolls around and he makes most of his reserve rolls thanks to this characters abilities and teleports all these LotD models in right in front of my entrenched infantry with a few midfield to grab some objectives.
Oh boy, his gak eating grin was rage inducing..... Right up until the point I started rolling for my reserves:
"You have reserves"
'Yeah, just some off table strikes'

One phase later and over a quarter of his list had vanished. He raged about it and tried to come up with reasons why the could never be used ever again

**Ignatius**

Kanluwen wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

Yeah...it's a "fixation with the deletion of units" that I don't like.

Or maybe it's just I want them to friggin' clean up the Codex and get rid of the garbage. Rough Riders have not, will not, and never have been relevant. There were a few gimmick lists involving them at times but even then they were useless.
Ratlings are the same thing.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

It's not a "niche playstyle for Guard". Blobs of Infantry are well-known, and there's a reason that there's references online to the "Conscript Tarpit" where it's Conscripts with a Priest in there.

And really, saying that you play those lists doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I play my Raptors as the Raven Guard Talon Strike Force, and it's done pretty well for me despite constantly playing against Tau(who negate ALL of the advantages that the TSF and its components grant.

If you were, say, to mention that you played those lists against certain others or anything of that nature--that's helpful. That lets us have a data point to start comparing notes about(Straken+Rough Riders+Guard Blobs does well v. Orks but not Marines, for example).

As it stands? You just threw out the fact that you play a list a certain way. Not how the list does for you or what you take within the list or whatever.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

So what if he's been shifted to the LOW spot? Just take him as an Unbound LOW if you need the Crutch Commander.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

It leaves us with the simple fact that there's a ton of things that can be done which aren't just "lol reduce points". And notice that NOBODY has said anything about adding to the survival attributes for the basic Guardsmen. The discussion regarding survival has been strictly regarding Heavy Weapon Teams--which are, at this point, a joke when it comes to surviving anything.

Also "making them flatout better" wouldn't interfere at all with the fluff of the Guard, unless your only exposure to the fluff of the Guard is from reading bolterporn where their role is to die in droves to let the Mary Sues get their objectives done.

We're talking about professional soldiery here, not the friggin' PDF.

I think an interesting mechanic that could be implemented revolves around the idea of giving all leaders in the army- that is sergeants, officers, commissars, etc.- a special rule. Essentially add up the number of these leaders at the beginning of every turn and your army gains a certain benefit or two. Imagine the Dark Eldar Power from Pain rule, but centered on the existence of the command structure. Essentially, the more leaders still alive the better your army functions (as it should).

That's as useless as Orders are now.

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

Good lord man. I don't know what I did to draw such hostility.

I like Rough Riders, I like their idea, I like the models I've created for them, and I like how they fit into my army. Most importantly I like how they fit into the theme of the Guard, which I'm sure you've picked up, is the complete opposite of how you feel about them. The only difference between our opinions is our tone. Regardless of anyone disagreeing with yours, you still seem to imply your opinion is the "correct" one- if there were such a thing. I mean I don't like Ratlings or Ogryn, but I don't pretend to believe my view of them is any more correct than anyone else's.

My play style is important when you're talking in these kinds of threads, as it can give context to my opinions. I don't know about you but the less someone has to infer about me and my opinions the better. Some opinions make a lot more sense when they are given context in this sense, you're free to ignore it if you'd like, but I'm not sure that attacking the simple fact that I stated it is helping the thread either.

Commissars are leaders. They operate outside of the command structure but they are quite clearly leaders. Not necessarily in the same sense as an officer or sergeant, but they definitely lead.

The intent of my post was a harmless Segway to my later contribution to the thread.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack?

).

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

**Ignatius**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

With Eternal Warrior that would mean that a Heavy Weapon Team would tank a shot from basically any weapon that doesn't have strength D. I'm imagining a Deathstrike missile landing square on top of them and one guy exploding into nothing and the other guy just kind of looking around wondering what happened.

**generalchaos34**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

I dont think they would ever release thudd guns or earthshakers as their own plastic kits simply because thats kind of a classic forgeworld mainstay. I can see them however making an all new plastic artillery of some kind that may fall in between, maybe one that has different kinds of shells like a thunderfire but more in the mid strength range? (smoke shells for cover saves would be ballin!)

**Kanluwen**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

Off-table artillery is more of a starter than you might think. Remember that the Master of Ordnance is a thing, and the new Cadian Warlord Traits actually include a Warlord Trait that makes your Warlord into a Master of Ordnance.

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

**Vaktathi**

Thudd guns used to be a relatively mainstream imperial unit with a metal kit...alas now its FW while GW brought it back for SM's as the Thunderfire Cannon.

**ThirstySpaceMan**

Kanluwen wrote:
Ignatius wrote:
One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

Yeah...it's a "fixation with the deletion of units" that I don't like.

Or maybe it's just I want them to friggin' clean up the Codex and get rid of the garbage. Rough Riders have not, will not, and never have been relevant. There were a few gimmick lists involving them at times but even then they were useless.
Ratlings are the same thing.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

It's not a "niche playstyle for Guard". Blobs of Infantry are well-known, and there's a reason that there's references online to the "Conscript Tarpit" where it's Conscripts with a Priest in there.

And really, saying that you play those lists doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I play my Raptors as the Raven Guard Talon Strike Force, and it's done pretty well for me despite constantly playing against Tau(who negate ALL of the advantages that the TSF and its components grant.

If you were, say, to mention that you played those lists against certain others or anything of that nature--that's helpful. That lets us have a data point to start comparing notes about(Straken+Rough Riders+Guard Blobs does well v. Orks but not Marines, for example).

As it stands? You just threw out the fact that you play a list a certain way. Not how the list does for you or what you take within the list or whatever.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

So what if he's been shifted to the LOW spot? Just take him as an Unbound LOW if you need the Crutch Commander.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

It leaves us with the simple fact that there's a ton of things that can be done which aren't just "lol reduce points". And notice that NOBODY has said anything about adding to the survival attributes for the basic Guardsmen. The discussion regarding survival has been strictly regarding Heavy Weapon Teams--which are, at this point, a joke when it comes to surviving anything.

Also "making them flatout better" wouldn't interfere at all with the fluff of the Guard, unless your only exposure to the fluff of the Guard is from reading bolterporn where their role is to die in droves to let the Mary Sues get their objectives done.

We're talking about professional soldiery here, not the friggin' PDF.

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

**generalchaos34**

ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Ignatius wrote:

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

I like to think of commissars like modern day Warrant officers or LDOs (limited duty officers). They have all the rights and privileges of an officer but are not typically allowed general command of a ship or unit because they are classified as specialists instead of line officers. They are no way any less of an officer than any other, they just have a specific duty to fulfill (in the case of a commissar, that being discipline/morale) and if need be are more than capable of taking command. The fluff is replete with commissars leading the charge, being advisers to commanders then offing them for cowardice and taking command themselves, or simply gathering up disparate forces and making units out of them on the battlefield and leading them to victory. I would on principle argue that a commissar is far more worthy of command than your typical low ranking guard officer who is a green son/daughter of nobility, with the exception of the hardcore units that promote their officers from within like with DKoK or Catachan. Even the extra cowardly favorite Ciaphas Cain found himself leading forces into battle on occasion, although never keeping command.

**GreyCrow**

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

**Kanluwen**

ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

**Vaktathi**

TIL the single most "40k" character in the entire IG faction, who's been there since the very first IG codex, is a joke that should just be thrown out because it's not in one of the plastic Cadian infantry boxes...

**Abadabadoobaddon**

GreyCrow wrote:

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

Agree with your Instant Death point for Swarms !

Actually, how about making Instant Death based on Strength rather than Strength = Toughness x 2 ? Like S8 has the Instant Death special rule. Or S8+ deal 2 wounds per unsaved wound, +1 for AP2, +2 for AP1.

A bit of a side topic, but that'd balance the MC/Vehicle stuff quite a bit.

Ok, immunity to Instant death, but if they get hit by a blast or template each model takes a # of wounds = however many they have remaining. This rule could apply to attack bikes too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
TIL the single most "40k" character in the entire IG faction, who's been there since the very first IG codex, is a joke that should just be thrown out because it's not in one of the plastic Cadian infantry boxes...

You're forgetting the new fluff where all regiments really want to be Cadian and Ursarkar Creed is their spiritual liege.

**the_Armyman**

Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Are you seriously off your meds? Your IG cred is so slim right now, brother. The Hero of Armageddon, Commisar Yarrick should be binned because you don't like him?

**Ignatius**

generalchaos34 wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Ignatius wrote:

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

I like to think of commissars like modern day Warrant officers or LDOs (limited duty officers). They have all the rights and privileges of an officer but are not typically allowed general command of a ship or unit because they are classified as specialists instead of line officers. They are no way any less of an officer than any other, they just have a specific duty to fulfill (in the case of a commissar, that being discipline/morale) and if need be are more than capable of taking command. The fluff is replete with commissars leading the charge, being advisers to commanders then offing them for cowardice and taking command themselves, or simply gathering up disparate forces and making units out of them on the battlefield and leading them to victory. I would on principle argue that a commissar is far more worthy of command than your typical low ranking guard officer who is a green son/daughter of nobility, with the exception of the hardcore units that promote their officers from within like with DKoK or Catachan. Even the extra cowardly favorite Ciaphas Cain found himself leading forces into battle on occasion, although never keeping command.

Exactly, which is where the thought that they would count as "leaders" to the count. This is the way I have always interpreted their role.

GreyCrow wrote:

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

Agree with your Instant Death point for Swarms !

Actually, how about making Instant Death based on Strength rather than Strength = Toughness x 2 ? Like S8 has the Instant Death special rule. Or S8+ deal 2 wounds per unsaved wound, +1 for AP2, +2 for AP1.

A bit of a side topic, but that'd balance the MC/Vehicle stuff quite a bit.

**ThirstySpaceMan**

Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Why do you even play the guard if you hate all the fluff units? play a different game if you want realistic modern non fantasy military. Holy gak sir you have just been unyielding in your ideas for the AM and seem to be un able to understand that some people want fixes not the ax. You need to relax and enjoy the fluff or just play the game and keep your venom of fluff units to yourself

**Kanluwen**

the_Armyman wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Are you seriously off your meds? Your IG cred is so slim right now, brother. The Hero of Armageddon, Commisar Yarrick should be binned because you don't like him?

The "Hero of Armageddon" who was captured by an Ork and freed because the Ork wanted something to do.

If my "IG cred" in your mind requires me to like a terrible character, then I'm glad to have none.

Yarrick can be gone because too many new players immediately grab him and then do nothing but complain when they can't win using Yarrick or he doesn't "do Orders like the officers do".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Why do you even play the guard if you hate all the fluff units? play a different game if you want realistic modern non fantasy military. Holy gak sir you have just been unyielding in your ideas for the AM and seem to be un able to understand that some people want fixes not the ax. You need to relax and enjoy the fluff or just play the game and keep your venom of fluff units to yourself

And you need to understand that most of the "fixes" realistically involve axing the crappy stuff that's been around since forever. "Fixing" the Guard book isn't viable at this point, the whole book needs to be torn down and rebuilt.

The Skitarii are what Guard should have been, even with Doctrina Imperatives being limited to once per game outside of certain Formations. Every unit has a specific role and meshes well.

**Vaktathi**

Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

**TheCustomLime**

I have never seen Yarrick being played. I always thought he was overcosted for just being some guy with a fancy hat*. But I never knew he was such a controversial character!

*Rules wise. I think he is a great character. I love how Ghazgkull basically has a mancrush on him.

**Commissar Benny**

Vaktathi wrote:
Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

I don't really understand this either. Commissar Yarrick is a large reason why I am even interested in 40k. Back in 3rd edition, it was the Armageddon conflict & the rivalry between Yarrick & Ghaz that got me interested in the game. Me & my brother have been collecting for 15+ years now I think? I've been building my Steel Legion army, while my brother has been building his Waaaaagh. We have faced each other many times over the years, but never Yarrick vs Ghaz. One day we plan to have them meet in battle for the true battle of Armageddon. I like everything about him. I wish his rules were better but they are ok.

Regarding the comments to remove units such as rough riders etc from the codex, why in the world would anyone want that? We have lost so many units already that will likely never return & you want to remove more? Many of these units have models. If GW would just take the time to fix their rules, I think most would gladly field them. I see no reason to remove them, when the obvious solution is just to make them competitive or increase their effectiveness.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

NOW you've gone too far.

**generalchaos34**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

NOW you've gone too far.

How in holy hell is there nothing more FRAGGIN GUARD than Commissar Balls of Adamantium Yarrick? Look at this man and tell me there is something that says "I am the hammer of the emperor" more than this stone cold space pimp? He is the only man in the universe Orks respect, he has his own personal baneblade called the "Fortress of Arrogance" which he mounted an entire crusade just to get back.

Spoiler:

He is the most interesting man in the universe.

"I dont always slaughter millions, but when I do, I prefer Orks"

**Slayer-Fan123**

Yeah, I've NEVER heard of anyone hating on Yarrick since I've been in the hobby. That's maybe about over a decade.

**Selym**

Kanluwen wrote:
ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

I'm not sure you are an IG player.

Perhaps you are a closet ultrasmurf?