Firefox1 wrote: Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
I feel like they just need to put back lumbering behemoth
No move and shoot penalty
cannot advance.
They already have that for the turrets though. I guess putting it on the sponsons would be nice, but I don't think we should be buying a tank purely for the sponson weapons. Right now the main guns are just perception wise too weak. Analytically, I know it only costs 22 points and is generally far better than a lascannon, but it just feels weak.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
I think it'll come down to target selection. I would absolutely take battle cannons over lascannons in my own games, assuming I could put them on a heavy weapon squad. But on a LR it just feels disappointing. "I bought a tank and all I got was a weapon very similar to a lascannon" t-shirt sort of situation. But then my primary opponent is playing Thousand Sons.
Of course the fact that we're even comparing the LRBT's main gun to a lascannon, especially when there is a twin lascannon turret option, just highlights the problem. The battle cannon is a heavy tank's main gun, it should be a lot more effective than a single infantry-scale heavy weapon.
Peregrine wrote: Of course the fact that we're even comparing the LRBT's main gun to a lascannon, especially when there is a twin lascannon turret option, just highlights the problem. The battle cannon is a heavy tank's main gun, it should be a lot more effective than a single infantry-scale heavy weapon.
Why? It's not a dedicated antitank weapon.
It's a generalist weapon. If you want it to be better against tanks than the dedicated anti-tank weapon, and better against infantry than the dedicated anti-infantry weapon (as it is), it should cost considerably more.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
He said "generally better," not "better against hard targets."
But I think we can all agree that many of the generalist weapons in this game are bad or overcosted, especially for a faction like the Guard where you can get things in bulk.
Grenade Lancher: better vs hard targets than lasgun, but less good than plasma, more cost efficient vs light infantry than plasma but less efficient than lasguns - Verdict: it's better to just take more lasguns and plasma guns than mess with this half-measure at 5pts a pop
Missile Launcher: better vs hard targets than heavy bolter/mortar, but less good than lascannons, better vs light infantry than lascannons but worse than heavy bolters and same as mortars - Verdict: it's better to just take more lascannons and heavy bolters/mortars than to pay 20pts for a missile launcher
Battle cannon: maybe about the same against hard targets as a lascannon, and better than heavy bolters/mortars, better against infantry than lascannon, but less efficient than heavy bolters or plasma - Verdict: you are paying 22 points for this, and anything you shoot it at it would have been better to shoot something else at that target. Given how many guns Guard can bring, just bring the right guns to point at the right targets and skip generalist stuff like this, especially when you are paying such a premium for the multirole capacity
Excellent verdict SuspiciousSucculent. I exalt you.
If we gained the flak missile stratagem would that make missile launchers more useful? I mean, mortal wounds on fliers seems pretty good and might give missile launchers a role. I know of a plague drone I'd like to down pretty easily.
In a similar line of thought, how about a smoke grenade stratagem for grenade launchers? Literally smoke launchers for infantry, except they can use them on any friendly unit within 24"? At least with stratagems like this these weapons would find a use.
Peregrine wrote: Of course the fact that we're even comparing the LRBT's main gun to a lascannon, especially when there is a twin lascannon turret option, just highlights the problem. The battle cannon is a heavy tank's main gun, it should be a lot more effective than a single infantry-scale heavy weapon.
Why? It's not a dedicated antitank weapon.
It's a generalist weapon. If you want it to be better against tanks than the dedicated anti-tank weapon, and better against infantry than the dedicated anti-infantry weapon (as it is), it should cost considerably more.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
He said "generally better," not "better against hard targets."
Well, with D6 shots and BS4+, I'm going to laugh if you tell me it's worth anything against infantry targets.
What it does have, compared to a Lascannon, is a smaller chance of doing nothing and a smaller chance of doing a whole lot. It's "reliable".
Also, the damn thing isn't 22 points, it's 162 points and comes with a Heavy Bolter. For 162 points, the gun better be superior to a Lascannon.
Yea, you can get some heavy weapons teams cheap and put them in either individual teams or with a squad of guys for far cheaper the price of a battle cannon'd russ.
You know, the high base cost is part of the reason why I kind of wish we could put lascannon sponsons on a LRBT so we can just really load it up with boom.
After all, if you're going to buy a 132 point steel brick, you might as well put it to work protecting another 100+ points of gun. Sticking just 30 points of gun on it almost feels like a waste.
Also just continues to remind me that I'd still like to see a "light tank" Chimera variant.
Say, ~65 points for the Chimera's stat line minus transport capacity, bringing the BC+HB combo up to 95 points total on that platform?
Non guard player here, but just want to ask about how the Leman Russ compares to a Predator tank? Predator can have Twin Lascannons and Heavy Bolter sponsons, while the Leman Russ presumably can have Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Seems like a similar armament, but presumably the Leman Russ is slower and tougher.
For anti tank the predator wins hands down. Even my Leman Russ tank commanders fail to do much damage consistently. But a predator can practically 1 shot a leman Russ.
Insectum7 wrote: Non guard player here, but just want to ask about how the Leman Russ compares to a Predator tank? Predator can have Twin Lascannons and Heavy Bolter sponsons, while the Leman Russ presumably can have Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Seems like a similar armament, but presumably the Leman Russ is slower and tougher.
The twin lascannons hitting on 3+ is definitely superior anti-tank than a lascannon at 4+ and a battlecannon at 4+, especially for the price of a predator. Bear in mind, yes, the battle cannon has more shots, but is dramatically less likely to do damage each shot (worse strength and AP, d3 damage instead of d6). Durability-wise, the russ has one more toughness and one more wound than the predator, but also loses its offensive capabilities far faster than a Predator does when damaged (the drop from 3+ to 4+ is a drop of 25% effectiveness; 4+ to 5+ is a 33% loss, and 5+ to 6+ is a 50% loss, relatively speaking. It is ALWAYS good to start off with a higher BS before reductions).
Points-wise, the predator you described is 30 points cheaper. A quad-las predator is the same 190 points, but does a massive amount of damage quite reliably against tanks such as the Leman Russ, while a dakka pred (pred AC and heavy bolters) does damage against infantry more reliably. Even the humble storm bolter is substantially better on a predator than a leman russ.
Insectum7 wrote: Non guard player here, but just want to ask about how the Leman Russ compares to a Predator tank? Predator can have Twin Lascannons and Heavy Bolter sponsons, while the Leman Russ presumably can have Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Seems like a similar armament, but presumably the Leman Russ is slower and tougher.
The twin lascannons hitting on 3+ is definitely superior anti-tank than a lascannon at 4+ and a battlecannon at 4+, especially for the price of a predator. Bear in mind, yes, the battle cannon has more shots, but is dramatically less likely to do damage each shot (worse strength and AP, d3 damage instead of d6). Durability-wise, the russ has one more toughness and one more wound than the predator, but also loses its offensive capabilities far faster than a Predator does when damaged (the drop from 3+ to 4+ is a drop of 25% effectiveness; 4+ to 5+ is a 33% loss, and 5+ to 6+ is a 50% loss, relatively speaking. It is ALWAYS good to start off with a higher BS before reductions).
Points-wise, the predator you described is 30 points cheaper. A quad-las predator is the same 190 points, but does a massive amount of damage quite reliably against tanks such as the Leman Russ, while a dakka pred (pred AC and heavy bolters) does damage against infantry more reliably. Even the humble storm bolter is substantially better on a predator than a leman russ.
Thanks for the breakdown. Very suprising that the Leman Russ only has one more wound, although T 8 is good. I think the Battle Cannon is a decent weapon and I run 3 Defilers in my CSM, but yes, the BS 4+ hurts. Sounds like they're a bit in the expensive side.
Very minor issue, but I would like to see ratlings paired up into Elysian style sniper teams. Two models sharing a base with 2 wounds just like a heavy weapon team. You could give them a bonus to counter balance the downsides.
Want Melee Infantry options without jumping factions. They don't need to be any better than standard infantry, just need to be able to wield a melee/pistol combination.
Future War Cultist wrote: Very minor issue, but I would like to see ratlings paired up into Elysian style sniper teams. Two models sharing a base with 2 wounds just like a heavy weapon team. You could give them a bonus to counter balance the downsides.
I'd rather see an actual Sniper Team for Guardsmen before Ratlings.
Seeing as how we've got Guard Special Weapon Teams with no Spotters and whatnot...
Up front, I have not played 40k and I have only painted a few many many years ago. I'm looking at the different armies and want to get into 40k mostly for the modelling. I like the underdog feel the the IG/AM has. Fluff wise they are stubborn fighters, and participate in many major battles. I wouldn't mind seeing more models, but also more regiments coming in plastic. Or a restructuring of the AM is needed... What do I know? Personally I could see myself building a AM army, if the regiment was not mass assault or tank spam.. Better infantry and light vehicles is what I want to see. But that's me..
I know it would be a tall order to wish for the return of Doctrines but... I do wish that we got Doctrines. Oh, and while we're at it, renaming the faction to: "Imperial Guard".
What I don't want? New stuff. At least if they come at the cost of old stuff. We don't need Primaris Guardsmen. Even writing that makes me shudder.
ChargerIIC wrote: Want Melee Infantry options without jumping factions. They don't need to be any better than standard infantry, just need to be able to wield a melee/pistol combination.
Technically command squads can do that, but I agree they should make it an option for Veterans as well.
But they should really just fix it by letting company commanders or platoon commanders buy a bike as an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melackholy wrote: Up front, I have not played 40k and I have only painted a few many many years ago. I'm looking at the different armies and want to get into 40k mostly for the modelling. I like the underdog feel the the IG/AM has. Fluff wise they are stubborn fighters, and participate in many major battles. I wouldn't mind seeing more models, but also more regiments coming in plastic. Or a restructuring of the AM is needed... What do I know? Personally I could see myself building a AM army, if the regiment was not mass assault or tank spam.. Better infantry and light vehicles is what I want to see. But that's me..
For better infantry and good light vehicles, Tempestus Militarum have you covered, my friend!
I know it would be a tall order to wish for the return of Doctrines but... I do wish that we got Doctrines. Oh, and while we're at it, renaming the faction to: "Imperial Guard".
What I don't want? New stuff. At least if they come at the cost of old stuff. We don't need Primaris Guardsmen. Even writing that makes me shudder.
My only concern about regimental doctrine is what it will do to including auxilia like scions, ogryns, and ratlings. I really enjoy having abhumans in an IG army. It gives it more character.
My only concern about regimental doctrine is what it will do to including auxilia like scions, ogryns, and ratlings. I really enjoy having abhumans in an IG army. It gives it more character.
They used to be pretty great when it comes to character. Different regiments like Catachans, Cadians, Tanith, Armageddon, Warhawks and heck, Kanak all had their distinctive combat styles. You could even mix and match to create your own regiment with its own specializations. I know, something like this doesn't sound very 8th edition-ish.
... Also, are you implying that Scions are abhumans? Jokes aside, at least Stormtroopers should be in good place. If they retain what they have now, they wouldn't need regimental doctrines. This would be both balancing and characterful since they do tend to come from outside of normal regiments.
Actual abhumans, though? I don't know... I've never felt like they would be my cup of tea. When I'm thinking about getting some snipers or CC-troops, I tend to look outside of IG.
ChargerIIC wrote: Want Melee Infantry options without jumping factions. They don't need to be any better than standard infantry, just need to be able to wield a melee/pistol combination.
Technically command squads can do that, but I agree they should make it an option for Veterans as well.
But they should really just fix it by letting company commanders or platoon commanders buy a bike as an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melackholy wrote: Up front, I have not played 40k and I have only painted a few many many years ago. I'm looking at the different armies and want to get into 40k mostly for the modelling. I like the underdog feel the the IG/AM has. Fluff wise they are stubborn fighters, and participate in many major battles. I wouldn't mind seeing more models, but also more regiments coming in plastic. Or a restructuring of the AM is needed... What do I know? Personally I could see myself building a AM army, if the regiment was not mass assault or tank spam.. Better infantry and light vehicles is what I want to see. But that's me..
For better infantry and good light vehicles, Tempestus Militarum have you covered, my friend!
I know it would be a tall order to wish for the return of Doctrines but... I do wish that we got Doctrines. Oh, and while we're at it, renaming the faction to: "Imperial Guard".
What I don't want? New stuff. At least if they come at the cost of old stuff. We don't need Primaris Guardsmen. Even writing that makes me shudder.
My only concern about regimental doctrine is what it will do to including auxilia like scions, ogryns, and ratlings. I really enjoy having abhumans in an IG army. It gives it more character.
Your probably right. Maybe new units is what I seek, I don't know. The Elysian drop troops from FW has some alore but are maybe to light.
Restructure the whole thing, add new types of vehicles in the light(sentinels etc) and medium (chimaeras/Leman Russ) categories. I'm not a fan of the look of the heavies. Update infantry gear and guns some.
What I would like to see? Actual model range diversity and support that's representitive of the faction within the lore/setting. So, complete plastic ranges released for;
"Complete" ranges being; a box of Infantry, a Command box, Heavy Weapons teams, all special weapon options, vehicle crew, and ideally at least one "hero" box consisting of a special character or unit per Regiment. They should also each come with their own Doctrine/Battle Tactic/etc to help flavour them up a bit and differentiate them. Oh and all plastic sprues should be as interchangable and kit-bashable as possible for people wanting to mix-and-match and/or make homebrew Regiments. Oh and they should include female models. Basically Victoria Miniatures should be what the GW Imperial Guard range should look like.
This so much. only things she doesn't make are Tallarn and and steel legion style heads. But if you take her Rausenburg Siege Corps bodies and Mad Robot Miniatures shocktroop heads its a dead ringer for Armageddon's finest
Pretty sure if they had anything on her, they'd have done it by now. As long as she avoids any blatant names (like Leman Russ) or imagery (like double-headed eagle) she should be fine.
Future War Cultist wrote: Would you guys rather retain traditional command squads or go down the marines route and make the medic and standard bearers stand alone characters?
We do need a new plastic range though. One with all the options. The up and coming necromunda range shows what's possible.
I would rather they move all upgrade options from the command squad to the infantry squad, and just eliminate the command squads.
I'd be happy for the medic and standard bearers to become characters in the elites section. Same for the storm trooper variants. However, making platoon standards and medic packs an upgrade for the regular squads could also work.
Command squads are too easy to kill to be worth using as anything but suicide plasma.
"Oh, you upgrade that 4 man unit of T3 1W 5+ guardsman? Yeah I shoot them off the table first turn."
Another guard player is going to nuke them with cheapo mortars right off the bat, and they'll just be dead. At least if you stick the banner or medic in an infantry squad there's an extra 6 or 7 wound buffer there.
And I don't think the character option doesn't work particularly well, because guard characters are going to be barely worth the name. What stats are a bannerman going to have, a medic? How much will they cost 20 points? Is anyone going to pay 20 points for a +1 ld bubble for guardsman? or a 1 wound per turn healing medic?
I just can't see anyone ever taking these things if you have to bring another elite slot character along to do so.
But throw them in as options for an infantry squad, and I'd probably bring the odd banner or medic.
Can confirm. Sisters players don't bother to pay 15 points for a +1ld score and ours gets a 3+ save. Nor do we bother to pay 30 points for our medic, wouldn't likely do it ofr ten...
What if Platoon Commanders were given the banners as an upgrade option? That with a slight points decrease might make platoon Commanders a more viable option when compared to company Commanders. Historically ensigns carried the standards anyway and this old fashioned approach suits the guard well.
The only way for command squads to actually function as a command squads, and not BS3+ special weapon squads, is to give them the character rule, or some other method to avoid being targeted. They're simply shockingly fragile.
As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Not until our Special Weapon Squads stop sucking. You keep posting this idea and I'm going to keep replying with that statement.
Also, keep your stupid Commissars out of the Guard. They got their own faction now, let them rot there.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
No offense, but that just seems really overly complicated. I'd rather we stick with simple solutions. Although I do really like removing range limitation on vox and making the medic an auto-heal. I'm guessing you miss the platoons from previous editions? I mostly missed out on editions 3-6, so I'm really digging the more simplistic 8th edition setup.
Why couldn't they just make the medic have a 6+FNP aura like the Krieg Quartermaster? Price him appropriately and he would be great. As said above medics are currently total garbage.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Not until our Special Weapon Squads stop sucking. You keep posting this idea and I'm going to keep replying with that statement.
Also, keep your stupid Commissars out of the Guard. They got their own faction now, let them rot there.
Huh? Political officers are integral to the character of the Imperial Guard.
And why do our special weapons squads suck? At least, why do they suck more than a CCS?
I'm just going to point out that CCS's are basically worthless as Special Weapons platforms anyway, the only useful special weapons platform is SCS.
argonak wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
No offense, but that just seems really overly complicated. I'd rather we stick with simple solutions. Although I do really like removing range limitation on vox and making the medic an auto-heal. I'm guessing you miss the platoons from previous editions? I mostly missed out on editions 3-6, so I'm really digging the more simplistic 8th edition setup.
Yes. I liked platoons.
I also like the idea of the CCS being a collection of officers, each of which grants a different buff.
Otto von Bludd wrote: Why couldn't they just make the medic have a 6+FNP aura like the Krieg Quartermaster? Price him appropriately and he would be great. As said above medics are currently total garbage.
This would be a lot better, and probably simpler too. And more consistent. And since I value all these things I say yes. Although there's something to be said for keeping it as it is and just making it automatic.
And yes to vox casters removing the range altogether.
I still think the standards should become an upgrade for junior officers. It gives them just that little extra purpose. Medics though...I can't decide if they should become a squad upgrade or a separate character. My instinct says squad upgrade.
Colonel Cross wrote:That sounds pretty cool and viable. Don't see that ever happening though with the trouble they went through with characters.
I can't believe the medic upgrade is so expensive just for a 4+ on a T3 model. It's garbage.
Otto von Bludd wrote:Why couldn't they just make the medic have a 6+FNP aura like the Krieg Quartermaster? Price him appropriately and he would be great. As said above medics are currently total garbage.
Yes at it is it´s garbage. Auto-restore is needed.
Please no save after save, yes an aura would be stronger than one auto-restored HP, but that save after save mechanic is one of the worst.
Perhaps make units in the auro gain +1 on their saves or something like that.
As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
In general i like that idea. But we need a proper SWS.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Not until our Special Weapon Squads stop sucking. You keep posting this idea and I'm going to keep replying with that statement.
And why do our special weapons squads suck? At least, why do they suck more than a CCS?
I'm just going to point out that CCS's are basically worthless as Special Weapons platforms anyway, the only useful special weapons platform is SCS.
I agree that SCS are better special weapons units than both but i´m really suprised that you ask why SWS suck. 6 models and only 3 can take weapons and then they hit only at 4+.
Such a squad simply has to consists only of veterans and of course everyone needs to wield a special weapon.
And if your version of the CCS comes true, the SWS also need a Vox options.
CCS and SWS took the most hit with with loosing the firepoints on the chimera. Without a transport with a firedeck those units will die the turn they disembark.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be upgraded to Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Why is there no option for Heavy Weapons?
Because a lascannon you can't shoot at would be OP.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: As I said, delete the ability for Command Squads to take more than 1 special weapon, attach the entire thing to the officer, and make all 5 models have the "Character" keyword.
Not until our Special Weapon Squads stop sucking. You keep posting this idea and I'm going to keep replying with that statement.
And why do our special weapons squads suck? At least, why do they suck more than a CCS?
I'm just going to point out that CCS's are basically worthless as Special Weapons platforms anyway, the only useful special weapons platform is SCS.
I agree that SCS are better special weapons units than both but i´m really suprised that you ask why SWS suck. 6 models and only 3 can take weapons and then they hit only at 4+.
Such a squad simply has to consists only of veterans and of course everyone needs to wield a special weapon.
And if your version of the CCS comes true, the SWS also need a Vox options.
CCS and SWS took the most hit with with loosing the firepoints on the chimera. Without a transport with a firedeck those units will die the turn they disembark.
I was more observing that the CCS isn't particularly magically better than the SWS. They're virtually identical, and both not very useful.
I would probably change it to 4 Guardsmen with Special Weapons and 1 Sergeant, with one Guardsman with Special Weapon able to upgrade to also carry a Vox Caster.
I would also add the option for one of the Heavy Weapons Teams in a Heavy Weapons Squad to have a Vox.
vipoid wrote:
Why is there no option for Heavy Weapons?
Because a lascannon you can't shoot at would be OP.
So it's neither realistic nor useful. It's just an arbitrary tax on IGHQs. Fantastic.
I don't look at it last way. I think it's a fluffy way to make the useless guys useful and give them protection with the entire blob as a Character. I tried to make their effects definitely desirable to have, so it's not a useless block. After all it's not a bad deal if you actually want a stack of buffs.
I guess it's not super terriblly OP, actually. With a base unit cost of 55 points, and losing out of two supporting officers to get a Lascannon for 20 points, that's not exactly the same sort of thing as 40 sanctioned psykers casting Smite.
Company Command Section:
1 Captain, 4 Veteran Guardsmen
The Captain may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Captain may issue two orders each turn.
One Veteran may be replaced with a First Lieutenant. The First Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Lieutenant may issue a single order each turn, in addition to the Company Commander's two orders.
One Veteran may be replaced with a Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Veteran may be replaced with a Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Veteran may be replaced with a First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Veteran may be replaced with a Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Veteran not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon
Two Veterans not already upgraded may be formed into a Veteran Heavy Weapons Team. The Veteran Heavy Weapons Team has 2 wounds, 2 Lasguns, and must take a Heavy Weapon.
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
Platoon Command Section:
1 Second Lieutenant, 4 Guardsmen
The Second Lieutenant may take a Ranged Weapon and a Close Combat Weapon. The Second Lieutenant may issue one order each turn.
One Guardsman may be replaced with a Communications Sergeant. The Communications Sergeant has a Vox Caster, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. While the Communications Sergeant is alive, Orders may be issued to any other unit with a Vox Caster, regardless of distance.
One Guardsman may be replaced with a Medical Sergeant. The Medical Sergeant has a medi-pack, and may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. The Medical Sergeant may restore a single previously slain model to a friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY unit at the end of each movement phase.
One Guardsman may be replaced with a First Sergeant. The First Sergeant has a Battle Standard, and may take a Ranged Weapon, Close Combat Weapon, and Special Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> INFANTRY units re-roll failed morale checks while within 6" of the First Sergeant.
One Guardsman may be replaced with a Quartermaster. The Quartermaster may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon. Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of the Quartermaster may re-roll a single roll in each shooting phase.
Any Guardsman not already upgraded may be upgraded to Bodyguard, gaining an extra wound. A Bodyguard may take a Ranged Weapon and Close Combat Weapon.
Two Guardsmen not already upgraded may be formed into a Heavy Weapons Team. The Heavy Weapons Team has 2 wounds, 2 Lasguns, and must take a Heavy Weapon.
A Commissar may be added to the squad.
I'd love if the codex reflected the fact that the Guard is the most varied fignting force in the galaxy, reflected by either regiments, or by specialisations (Chapter tactics style). Last few editions it was the SM who are the most varied force avalible. Ideally a chart that would allow you to create your own regiment bonuses and drawbacks.
Also, tons of various relic wargear for Commanders and Tank commanders.
Return of Fire Ports for Chimeras (2 like in previous, maybe with -1 to hit if the vehicle had moved), Doctrines for Veterans. (Sentries have -1 being hit, Grenadiers have +1Sv, maybe add paratroopers instead of demolitions, idk, many posiblilties)
Buff Vanquishers (Reroll for wound, 2D6 damage or 3D3 damage instead of roll 2 and pick the highest) Vanquisher is the ultimate tank killer for the Guard, not a unreliable paint scratcher as it is today, outprformed by every other weapon. (may corellate with tank commander relic wargear)
Make Exterminators Heavy 8 or 6 at least, Heavy 4 is too weak. Or give it a reroll misses like it had last edition.
Eradicator could make 2D6 shots but have 1D, as a thing for blasting infantry in cover to hell...
Good idea for the tanks. A vanquisher should stand a chance of wrecking a tank in one shot, and eradicators should be an infantry buster. Eight shots for an exterminator sounds good too.
Actually, how's this for an idea: all four regular Russ tanks can inflict a possible 18 damage on the target unit, but how they do it is different. The regular russ has d6 attacks that do d3 damage, while the vanquisher has 1 attack that does 3d6 damage (no reroll), the exterminator has 9 attacks with 2 damage, and the eradicator has 3D6 attacks that do 1 damage. Bump the eradicators range up to 48 and I think the tanks main guns would be in a good place. Having said that, I'd still prefer if the blast weapons had a fixed number of attacks (6 and 18 respectively). The reroll should be
the variable.
Hawky wrote:I'd love if the codex reflected the fact that the Guard is the most varied fignting force in the galaxy, reflected by either regiments, or by specialisations (Chapter tactics style). Last few editions it was the SM who are the most varied force avalible. Ideally a chart that would allow you to create your own regiment bonuses and drawbacks.
The problem we have with the current IG codex is that it has been built on the basis of the whines of the Marine players. Dont believe me? Well, look up some of the threads from last year/early this year. Guard players where talking about how we wanted a varied codex with plenty of flexibility, but Marine players kept on butting in to the threads and telling us how our army should be "masses of faceless bods, hordes of basic infantry drowning the enemy in numbers, Marines are the elite army so you cant be".
Ironically we now have threads full of those self same players whining on about how IG numbers are overpowered and Guard players should not be able to bring so many models, which is a vast heap of hypocritical irony. On a side note, the salt industry is apparently very profitable.
Also, tons of various relic wargear for Commanders and Tank commanders.
Please yes! Something that gave us an invun save, or expanded the number of orders available, Artificer Hull's for that extra wound......
Return of Fire Ports for Chimeras (2 like in previous, maybe with -1 to hit if the vehicle had moved), Doctrines for Veterans. (Sentries have -1 being hit, Grenadiers have +1Sv, maybe add paratroopers instead of demolitions, idk, many posiblilties)
Yes to Chimeras, they need a lot of love. As for doctrines, we need to see them return for Veterans along with a points decrease for Veteran units. As things stand Veterans are useless. Add in paratroops instead of replacing Demolitions with it though - I really miss my Sturmpioneers from 7th.
Buff Vanquishers (Reroll for wound, 2D6 damage or 3D3 damage instead of roll 2 and pick the highest) Vanquisher is the ultimate tank killer for the Guard, not a unreliable paint scratcher as it is today, outprformed by every other weapon. (may corellate with tank commander relic wargear)
Make Exterminators Heavy 8 or 6 at least, Heavy 4 is too weak. Or give it a reroll misses like it had last edition.
Eradicator could make 2D6 shots but have 1D, as a thing for blasting infantry in cover to hell...
Yes to all of the above, Eradicators need to have at least 8 shots, and given that it is the premier tank destroyer in the fluff the Vanquisher really flops on the table top.
Colonel Cross wrote:If you could shoot out of Chimeras, their high cost would probably be worthwhile.
Not really - even with 2 firepoits they would be naff. Chimeras need some way to avoid the penalty for shooting after they move, they need the return of the Lasgun arrays from 7th, they need the firepoints from the hatch, they need to be amphibious again and finally they need a points reduction. All together that might just be enough to make them viable once more.
Future War Cultist wrote:A vanquisher should stand a chance of wrecking a tank in one shot, and eradicators should be an infantry buster.
Precisely, although the Exterminator should be good against infantry and light vehicles. The Punisher should be a dedicated infantry killer.
I would also say that Doctrines have to return. The marines (both loyalist and traitor) have their own version and we're supposed to be even more varied than them.
Future War Cultist wrote: I would also say that Doctrines have to return. The marines (both loyalist and traitor) have their own version and we're supposed to be even more varied than them.
No, they do not have anything like "Doctrines".
I'm sorry but every time I hear someone say that things like Chapter Traits are similar to Doctrines it bothers me immeasurably. Doctrines were a huge deal that no army has really replicated since.
It affected the way your army was built(Ratlings, Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Heavy Weapon Squads, Techpriests, Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, and Rough Riders were locked out and took up Doctrine slots for example), it affected the way your basic infantry were built(Warrior Weapons mandated you take CCW+Laspistols in lieu of Lasguns, Carapace gave them a 4+ save, Cybernetic Enhancement gave them an Invulnerable save), and it affected the way the army played(rerolling hit rolls of 1s via Sharpshooter, Iron Discipline's benefits, etc...)
You guys really need to know that Doctrines were cool...but they were also exceedingly restrictive.
Future War Cultist wrote: I would also say that Doctrines have to return. The marines (both loyalist and traitor) have their own version and we're supposed to be even more varied than them.
No, they do not have anything like "Doctrines".
I'm sorry but every time I hear someone say that things like Chapter Traits are similar to Doctrines it bothers me immeasurably. Doctrines were a huge deal that no army has really replicated since.
It affected the way your army was built(Ratlings, Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Heavy Weapon Squads, Techpriests, Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, and Rough Riders were locked out and took up Doctrine slots for example), it affected the way your basic infantry were built(Warrior Weapons mandated you take CCW+Laspistols in lieu of Lasguns, Carapace gave them a 4+ save, Cybernetic Enhancement gave them an Invulnerable save), and it affected the way the army played(rerolling hit rolls of 1s via Sharpshooter, Iron Discipline's benefits, etc...)
You guys really need to know that Doctrines were cool...but they were also exceedingly restrictive.
I think they where on about Veteran Doctrines from the last couple of books.
That said I want the army wide ones to come back.
Future War Cultist wrote: I would also say that Doctrines have to return. The marines (both loyalist and traitor) have their own version and we're supposed to be even more varied than them.
No, they do not have anything like "Doctrines".
I'm sorry but every time I hear someone say that things like Chapter Traits are similar to Doctrines it bothers me immeasurably. Doctrines were a huge deal that no army has really replicated since.
It affected the way your army was built(Ratlings, Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Heavy Weapon Squads, Techpriests, Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, and Rough Riders were locked out and took up Doctrine slots for example), it affected the way your basic infantry were built(Warrior Weapons mandated you take CCW+Laspistols in lieu of Lasguns, Carapace gave them a 4+ save, Cybernetic Enhancement gave them an Invulnerable save), and it affected the way the army played(rerolling hit rolls of 1s via Sharpshooter, Iron Discipline's benefits, etc...)
You guys really need to know that Doctrines were cool...but they were also exceedingly restrictive.
I think they where on about Veteran Doctrines from the last couple of books.
That said I want the army wide ones to come back.
Honestly?
I don't want either one back. They became crutches.
More Tanks, Better tanks, more Effective tanks (BATTLECANNON NOT EFFECTIVE AS BEFORE! SADFACE).
I want a tank larger than a Baneblade. Like....
Leman Russ -> Malcador -> Macharius > Baneblade -> Something bigger -> EVEN BIGGER TANK -> Levthiathan -> Capitolis Imperialis -> Battleship tank on par with an Emperor CLass Titan because TANKS.
Future War Cultist wrote: I would also say that Doctrines have to return. The marines (both loyalist and traitor) have their own version and we're supposed to be even more varied than them.
No, they do not have anything like "Doctrines".
I'm sorry but every time I hear someone say that things like Chapter Traits are similar to Doctrines it bothers me immeasurably. Doctrines were a huge deal that no army has really replicated since.
It affected the way your army was built(Ratlings, Stormtroopers, Ogryn, Heavy Weapon Squads, Techpriests, Special Weapon Squads, Veterans, and Rough Riders were locked out and took up Doctrine slots for example), it affected the way your basic infantry were built(Warrior Weapons mandated you take CCW+Laspistols in lieu of Lasguns, Carapace gave them a 4+ save, Cybernetic Enhancement gave them an Invulnerable save), and it affected the way the army played(rerolling hit rolls of 1s via Sharpshooter, Iron Discipline's benefits, etc...)
You guys really need to know that Doctrines were cool...but they were also exceedingly restrictive.
I think they where on about Veteran Doctrines from the last couple of books.
That said I want the army wide ones to come back.
Honestly?
I don't want either one back. They became crutches.
The army wide ones, with some effort put in, could become amazing, allowing each player to customise their force as they desire. Think about it, you could have doctrines that let you play anything from mounted heavy infantry to fast light infiltrators and guerrillas to heavy infantry to anything!
As to the Veteran ones, there was nothing wrong with them when we had them and they gave Veteran units a bit more flexibility. What is wrong with having them back?
The army wide ones, with some effort put in, could become amazing, allowing each player to customise their force as they desire. Think about it, you could have doctrines that let you play anything from mounted heavy infantry to fast light infiltrators and guerrillas to heavy infantry to anything!
Would much rather get a Light Infiltrator list, a Heavy Infantry list, and mounted infantry(note that Steel Legion did NOT have Grenadiers OR Carapace Armor) list.
As to the Veteran ones, there was nothing wrong with them when we had them and they gave Veteran units a bit more flexibility. What is wrong with having them back?
No they didn't. They gave them essentially one set of options that anyone ever took and the rest just rotted. You might as well just give us Grenadiers and call it a day.
The army wide ones, with some effort put in, could become amazing, allowing each player to customise their force as they desire. Think about it, you could have doctrines that let you play anything from mounted heavy infantry to fast light infiltrators and guerrillas to heavy infantry to anything!
Would much rather get a Light Infiltrator list, a Heavy Infantry list, and mounted infantry(note that Steel Legion did NOT have Grenadiers OR Carapace Armor) list.
Okay, that is an idea, but what is wrong with having doctrines? Maybe something that reduces the ROF os Lasguns, or removes FRFSRF but allows you to reroll 1's for hitting with +6" of range? Or something that allows your army to infiltrate at the cost of never being able to take carapace armour and no more than one vehicle Heavy Support choice? Something that makes Chimeras cheaper/buffs them in some way, but all infantry units must take a transport?
As to the Veteran ones, there was nothing wrong with them when we had them and they gave Veteran units a bit more flexibility. What is wrong with having them back?
No they didn't. They gave them essentially one set of options that anyone ever took and the rest just rotted. You might as well just give us Grenadiers and call it a day.
Grenadiers was an auto-take because it was the only way to ensure that your expensive unit would not be wiped off the board the moment the first MEQ/AP5 or better unit looked in its general direction. With save modifiers as they are now Grenadiers will not always be an autotake. And the other doctrines where useful as well. Demolitions gave the unit a point blank surprise and some great tank hunting abilities whilst Forward Sentries was great for fighting in dense terrain.
Absolutely! If they bring back doctrines then the tanks should get in on this. That could be a way to bring back relic plating (which I thought was a cool concept). Say the whole regiment itself is known for interning dead crew into their vehicles to ward off evil spirits. Another doctrine idea; the tanks can retreat and shoot in the same turn but suffer -1 to hit rolls. I'm sure you could get enough of them to make a decent set to choose from.
Ruberu wrote: Plastic old Storm Troopers or Kasrkin and Steel Legion would make me a happy camper.
You have good taste! Here are my Steel Legion stormtroopers:
I just hope if they update any of the old regiments to plastic, they keep it simple. So many of the models coming out these days are overly ornate & end up looking ridiculous. Like the new space marines with bones underneath their junk. The scions suffer from this as well:
I can't really describe why I don't like their new aesthetic, I just don't.
Maybe it's because every helmet and chest plate is different? That kinda bugs me for some reason. Contrast with the Primus marines and their smooth universal suits. I don't mind the gothic aesthetic of them, but I do wish they had greaves. If you're going for the knightly look you should go the whole hog.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I miss the old doctrines of the 4th edition armoured company list.
Tanks that could change ammunition types!
The current Overwatch before it ever existed!
Improved armour!
Close combat attacks before Close Combat tanks were a thing!
And more besides!
Oh god yes, and things like anti magnetid mine paste - basically Zimmerit - to protect against melta bombs. Even modelled it on my Jagdpanther look-a-like Destroyer Tank Hunter.
Of all the different types of armored company (and equivalent) lits I've used over the 5 editions I've played, that one was the most fun. I also liked the morale rules that list had, that if more than half the tanks were destroyed or immobilized, no tank could move towards the opponents board edge unless a Commissar tank was nearby.
- Named Catachan characters as a special veteran squad like the dirty dozen
They basically already exist though not Catachan specific.
Praetorians are unlikely though incredibly popular, just not popular enough (or serious enough for modern 40k) to warrant a model range. However 3rd Party companies have got this niche very well covered so its not something worth fighting for IMO.
Be interesting if they went back to 2nd/3rd addition ascthetic, have different units from different regiments obstensibly so you build a balanced mixed army but with the flexibility of plastic box sets (and hopefully in-codex) to make "all-X" armies.
Anyone know if there's any substance to Steel Legion rumours or is it just an version of IG player longing for greatcoats? With Cadia gone and the approach to SM/CSM release, I could see GW releasing the Ork and IG codexes together with fluff focusing around Armageddon. Would be nice.
I said before that if Armageddon is becoming more important in the fluff, they should make plastic steel legion. And releasing the IG along side the orks would be great.
Future War Cultist wrote: I said before that if Armageddon is becoming more important in the fluff, they should make plastic steel legion. And releasing the IG along side the orks would be great.
I think you could get a lot of mileage with just a head and backpack for steel legion. Even with the death of Cadia, I don't think the cadian models are going anywhere, although it would be nice to get a refresh the way tacticals did.
Future War Cultist wrote: I said before that if Armageddon is becoming more important in the fluff, they should make plastic steel legion. And releasing the IG along side the orks would be great.
The Armageddon campaign back in 3rd edition was the ! I still think it is the best campaign book ever written. The rivalry between Yarrick & Ghazghkull Thraka, the scale of conflict, # of armies involved, named characters die, the setting, & neither side "wins". Its everything I want in a campaign. Even with Thraka repelled from the world (Got bored/called away by Gork/Mork) the ork presence on the planet is still massive. Hell the conflict has been going on for 17+ real life years & has only gotten worse. Hive cities, hive gangs, mad max type atmosphere, its got it all.
Not to mention Armageddon is Ullanor. Everyone is familiar with this picture:
Know where this is? Present day Armageddon. Where Horus was named Warmaster. How is this possible?
Shortly after the death of Koorland, Maximus Thane led a third and final Imperial invasion of Ullanor. During this attack, the Imperials used redirected asteroids to devastate the planet. Using the Sisters of Silence in conjunction with a captured Ork Psyker, The Beast was slain.[5] After the war Thane, now Lord Commander, ordered that the Adeptus Mechanicus enact Exterminatus on Ullanor to erase it from history and prevent a new Beast from ever arising. However Fabricator-General Kubik coveted the Greenskin artifacts on the world, and instead used his reverse-engineered Ork teleportation technology to teleport Ullanor to a secret location in Segmentum Solar, which later became Armageddon.
Something lies hidden on Armageddon. Something so important that the Mechanicus teleported a planet to preserve it, so important that Gork & Mork want it as well as Chaos. What is it? Who knows.
Anyhow, if they release plastic Steel Legion I will definitely be dropping a lot of money.
Shortly after the death of Koorland, Maximus Thane led a third and final Imperial invasion of Ullanor. During this attack, the Imperials used redirected asteroids to devastate the planet. Using the Sisters of Silence in conjunction with a captured Ork Psyker, The Beast was slain.[5] After the war Thane, now Lord Commander, ordered that the Adeptus Mechanicus enact Exterminatus on Ullanor to erase it from history and prevent a new Beast from ever arising. However Fabricator-General Kubik coveted the Greenskin artifacts on the world, and instead used his reverse-engineered Ork teleportation technology to teleport Ullanor to a secret location in Segmentum Solar, which later became Armageddon.
Something lies hidden on Armageddon. Something so important that the Mechanicus teleported a planet to preserve it, so important that Gork & Mork want it as well as Chaos. What is it? Who knows.
It's Horus's 'Passwords to the Solar Defense grid' notebook. He's been trying to find that thing for Ages
Indeed, the cadains are painfully dated these days and the catachans are...
The steel legion have an awesome look to them. My only request is that they increase their '40kish' by about 10% or so, just so that they don't look like historical wargames miniatures carrying strange looking guns. It's...complicated to explain.
By the way, this whole idea reminds me of something somebody said before 8th came out. Just as age of Sigmar has its realms, 40k could have its war zones. The eye of terror is one, and Armageddon could be another. You could have one out in the east between the tau and the nids and so on.
Future War Cultist wrote: The steel legion have an awesome look to them. My only request is that they increase their '40kish' by about 10% or so, just so that they don't look like historical wargames miniatures carrying strange looking guns. It's...complicated to explain.
Please, please, please, please, please, please do, but NO ornate armour, Scion style. It looks awful an out of place.
Looks alright to distinguish Scions from the rest of the Guard. Might not fight on for the Steel Legion, but it would not be out of place for Vostroyan First Born or some other fancy geared regiments from the FFG books.
Kanluwen wrote: Cadia isn't gone though. Read the main rulebook; there's fighting going on in the system and even on flipping chunks of the destroyed planet.
Furthermore, even if the entire system were gone, Cadian Shock Troops are one of - if not the - Imperium's most prolifically raised and widely dispersed Regiments. There's plenty of scope for Cadian armies kicking around, both in high numbers and long years after Cadia's fall.
Future War Cultist wrote: The steel legion have an awesome look to them. My only request is that they increase their '40kish' by about 10% or so, just so that they don't look like historical wargames miniatures carrying strange looking guns. It's...complicated to explain.
Good God, no. I've seen enough of GW's modern "improved updates" to not trust them from it up and going too far/overboard.
Are you sure? We could have Primaris Guardsmen, who are a somewhat larger scale version of Cadians. They could be wearing a bit more armor and have better guns, and they'd be elite forces of the guard. Maybe also have implants and genetic manipulation and stuff like that.
daedalus wrote: Are you sure? We could have Primaris Guardsmen, who are a somewhat larger scale version of Cadians. They could be wearing a bit more armor and have better guns, and they'd be elite forces of the guard. Maybe also have implants and genetic manipulation and stuff like that.
Okay, I have posted but I don't think I listed my wants:
I want different regiment types to be available. Not different regiments, per se (i.e. cadian vs death korps vs steel legion) but rather different regiment types.
At least one of each of the following regimental types have been included in the fluff, and I will stick a 'chapter tactics' style rule to them to indicate how it might be accomplished:
Infantry Regiment: Primary Bonus: Units of Astra Militarum <Regiment> Infantry gain the Sustained Assault special rule. Secondary Bonus: Units of Astra Militarum <Regiment> Infantry with the Voice of Command special rule may issue the Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire order for free once per turn in addition to their normal amount of orders.
Armoured Regiment: Primary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Leman Russ may roll two dice and pick the highest when deciding the numbers of shots fired by any weapons on the vehicle. Vehicles without random-shot weapons instead gain the Grinding Advance rule for all their weapons instead of just the turret. Secondary Bonus:Astra Militarum Techpriest Enginseers may replace the <Forge World> keyword with the <Regiment> keyword.
Reconnaissance Regiment: Primary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Sentinels in the army ignore the cover bonus enemies gain against their attacks, and may fire as if stationary even if they moved or Advanced in the movement phase. Secondary Bonus:Astra Militarum <Regiment> Veterans in the army may take Camo Cloaks, adding +2 to their save for cover rather than the normal +1.
Veteran Regiment: Primary Bonus:Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Veterans become troops choices for the army. Secondary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Veterans increase their armour save to a 4+
Superheavy Regiment: Primary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Titanic unit may move and shoot without the penalty for firing heavy weapons. Secondary Bonus: One Astra Militarum <Regiment> Titanic unit per Superheavy Detachment may upgrade its ballistic skill to 3+ as the unit command tank.
Air Defense Regiment: Primary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Hydras or Manticore Sky Eagles gain an additional +1d3 damage bonus to all their weapons against units with Fly. Secondary Bonus: Every enemy unit with Fly destroyed by an Astra Militarum <Regiment> Hydra or Manticore Sky Eagle grants the Astra Militarum player one Victory Point.
Siege Regiment: Primary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> unit ignores the cover bonus gained by enemies at which it shoots, and may re-roll damage results against buildings for random damage weapons. Secondary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> Infantry unit may take a Demolition Charge.
Airborne Regiment: Primary Bonus: Every Valkyrie, Vendetta, Vulture, and Officer of the Fleet in the army trades the Aeronautica Imperialis keyword for the <Regiment> keyword. Any unit that does so may Deep Strike, as per the Scion special rule. Secondary Bonus: The army may select Astra Militarum Veterans as troops choices.
Composite Regiment: Primary Bonus: The Regiment may select any two Secondary Bonuses from any other regiment type. Secondary Bonus: None.
Artillery Regiment: Primary Bonus: Any Astra Militarum <Regiment> unit that can fire a weapon that does not require Line of Sight may re-roll 1s to wound. Secondary Bonus: Any <Regiment> Master of Ordnances may be HQ choices instead of elites in an Artillery Regiment detachment.
Added some stuff to my list of regiments, but any input or ideas would be welcome! The staggering diversity of regiments in the galaxy makes me excited!
I think it also encourages people to run different regiments in a battlegroup if they make a competitive list, which is also fluffly.
E.g. a Flyer Wing Air Wing detachment supporting a Spearhead Detachment Artillery Regiment with a Battalion Detachment Infantry Regiment as a 3-regiment tournament army.
Alternatively, you can lump everything together to make a huge Brigade, but just lose some bonuses on some stuff while gaining CP, or take one of the more general regimental types (e.g. Siege or Composite)
daedalus wrote: Are you sure? We could have Primaris Guardsmen, who are a somewhat larger scale version of Cadians. They could be wearing a bit more armor and have better guns, and they'd be elite forces of the guard. Maybe also have implants and genetic manipulation and stuff like that.
That could be super cool, right? Right?
We could call them sons of the storm, Tempestus Scions even.
daedalus wrote: Are you sure? We could have Primaris Guardsmen, who are a somewhat larger scale version of Cadians. They could be wearing a bit more armor and have better guns, and they'd be elite forces of the guard. Maybe also have implants and genetic manipulation and stuff like that.
That could be super cool, right? Right?
We could call them sons of the storm, Tempestus Scions even.
Google 'fallout: new vegas' ranger to get an idea of what I mean.
Okay. But I don't really see how this design (cool as it may be);
Spoiler:
Is "10% more 40K" than this design;
Spoiler:
Is it the six-shooter? Or the red glare in the goggles? Did you want them to look more like post-apoc cowboys in space, rather than WW1/2 army troops in space?
@argonak
Problem is that the Skitarii torsos are quite hard to convert, so you would need to cut the Cadin legs into half, position each leg individually and then cover it up with GS.
If you choose the othe way around, you need to cut off the armour, hoses and Skitarii legs under their knees and replace with cadian legs. Not mentioning the cog mechanicus on the chest, that needs to be removed too.
But in the end, yes, it might end up looking very much as the NCR ranger.
! I still think it is the best campaign book ever written. The rivalry between Yarrick & Ghazghkull Thraka, the scale of conflict, # of armies involved, named characters die, the setting, & neither side "wins". Its everything I want in a campaign. Even with Thraka repelled from the world (Got bored/called away by Gork/Mork) the ork presence on the planet is still massive. Hell the conflict has been going on for 17+ real life years & has only gotten worse. Hive cities, hive gangs, mad max type atmosphere, its got it all.
