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2017/08/11 06:58:06
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Firefox1 wrote: Leman Russes could need a buff.
- The weapons stabilizer (ignoring the -1 on the move) for Leman Russ non-turret weapons
- LasCannons choice for the sponsons to do a real Leman Russ Annihilator.
- Exterminator autocannon needs 8 shots
- Make the battle cannon have 2D3 shots instead of D6.
In general the game would benefit from fix numbers of shots (D3=2; D6=4).
I feel like they just need to put back lumbering behemoth
No move and shoot penalty
cannot advance.
They already have that for the turrets though. I guess putting it on the sponsons would be nice, but I don't think we should be buying a tank purely for the sponson weapons. Right now the main guns are just perception wise too weak. Analytically, I know it only costs 22 points and is generally far better than a lascannon, but it just feels weak.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
I think it'll come down to target selection. I would absolutely take battle cannons over lascannons in my own games, assuming I could put them on a heavy weapon squad. But on a LR it just feels disappointing. "I bought a tank and all I got was a weapon very similar to a lascannon" t-shirt sort of situation. But then my primary opponent is playing Thousand Sons.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 06:58:51
2017/08/11 08:31:20
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Of course the fact that we're even comparing the LRBT's main gun to a lascannon, especially when there is a twin lascannon turret option, just highlights the problem. The battle cannon is a heavy tank's main gun, it should be a lot more effective than a single infantry-scale heavy weapon.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2017/08/11 10:29:18
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Peregrine wrote: Of course the fact that we're even comparing the LRBT's main gun to a lascannon, especially when there is a twin lascannon turret option, just highlights the problem. The battle cannon is a heavy tank's main gun, it should be a lot more effective than a single infantry-scale heavy weapon.
Why? It's not a dedicated antitank weapon.
It's a generalist weapon. If you want it to be better against tanks than the dedicated anti-tank weapon, and better against infantry than the dedicated anti-infantry weapon (as it is), it should cost considerably more.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
He said "generally better," not "better against hard targets."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 10:31:43
2017/08/11 12:07:52
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
But I think we can all agree that many of the generalist weapons in this game are bad or overcosted, especially for a faction like the Guard where you can get things in bulk.
Grenade Lancher: better vs hard targets than lasgun, but less good than plasma, more cost efficient vs light infantry than plasma but less efficient than lasguns - Verdict: it's better to just take more lasguns and plasma guns than mess with this half-measure at 5pts a pop
Missile Launcher: better vs hard targets than heavy bolter/mortar, but less good than lascannons, better vs light infantry than lascannons but worse than heavy bolters and same as mortars - Verdict: it's better to just take more lascannons and heavy bolters/mortars than to pay 20pts for a missile launcher
Battle cannon: maybe about the same against hard targets as a lascannon, and better than heavy bolters/mortars, better against infantry than lascannon, but less efficient than heavy bolters or plasma - Verdict: you are paying 22 points for this, and anything you shoot it at it would have been better to shoot something else at that target. Given how many guns Guard can bring, just bring the right guns to point at the right targets and skip generalist stuff like this, especially when you are paying such a premium for the multirole capacity
2017/08/11 12:16:17
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Excellent verdict SuspiciousSucculent. I exalt you.
If we gained the flak missile stratagem would that make missile launchers more useful? I mean, mortal wounds on fliers seems pretty good and might give missile launchers a role. I know of a plague drone I'd like to down pretty easily.
In a similar line of thought, how about a smoke grenade stratagem for grenade launchers? Literally smoke launchers for infantry, except they can use them on any friendly unit within 24"? At least with stratagems like this these weapons would find a use.
2017/08/11 13:35:53
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Peregrine wrote: Of course the fact that we're even comparing the LRBT's main gun to a lascannon, especially when there is a twin lascannon turret option, just highlights the problem. The battle cannon is a heavy tank's main gun, it should be a lot more effective than a single infantry-scale heavy weapon.
Why? It's not a dedicated antitank weapon.
It's a generalist weapon. If you want it to be better against tanks than the dedicated anti-tank weapon, and better against infantry than the dedicated anti-infantry weapon (as it is), it should cost considerably more.
I wouldn't call it better than a Lascannon, actually. The point of strength and point of AP make a huge difference, and the D6 damage vs. D3 makes up for the fewer shots. I'll run the numbers for distributions tommorrow.
He said "generally better," not "better against hard targets."
Well, with D6 shots and BS4+, I'm going to laugh if you tell me it's worth anything against infantry targets.
What it does have, compared to a Lascannon, is a smaller chance of doing nothing and a smaller chance of doing a whole lot. It's "reliable".
Also, the damn thing isn't 22 points, it's 162 points and comes with a Heavy Bolter. For 162 points, the gun better be superior to a Lascannon.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 17:05:02
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2017/08/11 17:29:24
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Yea, you can get some heavy weapons teams cheap and put them in either individual teams or with a squad of guys for far cheaper the price of a battle cannon'd russ.
Feed the poor war gamer with money.
2017/08/13 03:09:55
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
You know, the high base cost is part of the reason why I kind of wish we could put lascannon sponsons on a LRBT so we can just really load it up with boom.
After all, if you're going to buy a 132 point steel brick, you might as well put it to work protecting another 100+ points of gun. Sticking just 30 points of gun on it almost feels like a waste.
Also just continues to remind me that I'd still like to see a "light tank" Chimera variant.
Say, ~65 points for the Chimera's stat line minus transport capacity, bringing the BC+HB combo up to 95 points total on that platform?
2017/08/13 04:01:48
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Non guard player here, but just want to ask about how the Leman Russ compares to a Predator tank? Predator can have Twin Lascannons and Heavy Bolter sponsons, while the Leman Russ presumably can have Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Seems like a similar armament, but presumably the Leman Russ is slower and tougher.
I wish they would add different weapon profiles for HE and AT rounds so the battle cannon isn't stuck in a weird inbeween.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2017/08/13 04:11:35
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
For anti tank the predator wins hands down. Even my Leman Russ tank commanders fail to do much damage consistently. But a predator can practically 1 shot a leman Russ.
5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech
2017/08/13 05:54:12
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Insectum7 wrote: Non guard player here, but just want to ask about how the Leman Russ compares to a Predator tank? Predator can have Twin Lascannons and Heavy Bolter sponsons, while the Leman Russ presumably can have Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Seems like a similar armament, but presumably the Leman Russ is slower and tougher.
The twin lascannons hitting on 3+ is definitely superior anti-tank than a lascannon at 4+ and a battlecannon at 4+, especially for the price of a predator. Bear in mind, yes, the battle cannon has more shots, but is dramatically less likely to do damage each shot (worse strength and AP, d3 damage instead of d6). Durability-wise, the russ has one more toughness and one more wound than the predator, but also loses its offensive capabilities far faster than a Predator does when damaged (the drop from 3+ to 4+ is a drop of 25% effectiveness; 4+ to 5+ is a 33% loss, and 5+ to 6+ is a 50% loss, relatively speaking. It is ALWAYS good to start off with a higher BS before reductions).
Points-wise, the predator you described is 30 points cheaper. A quad-las predator is the same 190 points, but does a massive amount of damage quite reliably against tanks such as the Leman Russ, while a dakka pred (pred AC and heavy bolters) does damage against infantry more reliably. Even the humble storm bolter is substantially better on a predator than a leman russ.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/13 05:55:54
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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2017/08/13 07:08:30
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Insectum7 wrote: Non guard player here, but just want to ask about how the Leman Russ compares to a Predator tank? Predator can have Twin Lascannons and Heavy Bolter sponsons, while the Leman Russ presumably can have Battle Cannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter Sponsons. Seems like a similar armament, but presumably the Leman Russ is slower and tougher.
The twin lascannons hitting on 3+ is definitely superior anti-tank than a lascannon at 4+ and a battlecannon at 4+, especially for the price of a predator. Bear in mind, yes, the battle cannon has more shots, but is dramatically less likely to do damage each shot (worse strength and AP, d3 damage instead of d6). Durability-wise, the russ has one more toughness and one more wound than the predator, but also loses its offensive capabilities far faster than a Predator does when damaged (the drop from 3+ to 4+ is a drop of 25% effectiveness; 4+ to 5+ is a 33% loss, and 5+ to 6+ is a 50% loss, relatively speaking. It is ALWAYS good to start off with a higher BS before reductions).
Points-wise, the predator you described is 30 points cheaper. A quad-las predator is the same 190 points, but does a massive amount of damage quite reliably against tanks such as the Leman Russ, while a dakka pred (pred AC and heavy bolters) does damage against infantry more reliably. Even the humble storm bolter is substantially better on a predator than a leman russ.
Thanks for the breakdown. Very suprising that the Leman Russ only has one more wound, although T 8 is good. I think the Battle Cannon is a decent weapon and I run 3 Defilers in my CSM, but yes, the BS 4+ hurts. Sounds like they're a bit in the expensive side.
Very minor issue, but I would like to see ratlings paired up into Elysian style sniper teams. Two models sharing a base with 2 wounds just like a heavy weapon team. You could give them a bonus to counter balance the downsides.
2017/08/14 18:39:34
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Want Melee Infantry options without jumping factions. They don't need to be any better than standard infantry, just need to be able to wield a melee/pistol combination.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
Future War Cultist wrote: Very minor issue, but I would like to see ratlings paired up into Elysian style sniper teams. Two models sharing a base with 2 wounds just like a heavy weapon team. You could give them a bonus to counter balance the downsides.
I'd rather see an actual Sniper Team for Guardsmen before Ratlings.
Seeing as how we've got Guard Special Weapon Teams with no Spotters and whatnot...
2017/08/14 21:29:51
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Up front, I have not played 40k and I have only painted a few many many years ago. I'm looking at the different armies and want to get into 40k mostly for the modelling. I like the underdog feel the the IG/AM has. Fluff wise they are stubborn fighters, and participate in many major battles. I wouldn't mind seeing more models, but also more regiments coming in plastic. Or a restructuring of the AM is needed... What do I know? Personally I could see myself building a AM army, if the regiment was not mass assault or tank spam.. Better infantry and light vehicles is what I want to see. But that's me..
2017/08/14 22:53:51
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
I know it would be a tall order to wish for the return of Doctrines but... I do wish that we got Doctrines. Oh, and while we're at it, renaming the faction to: "Imperial Guard".
What I don't want? New stuff. At least if they come at the cost of old stuff. We don't need Primaris Guardsmen. Even writing that makes me shudder.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/08/14 23:07:30
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
ChargerIIC wrote: Want Melee Infantry options without jumping factions. They don't need to be any better than standard infantry, just need to be able to wield a melee/pistol combination.
Technically command squads can do that, but I agree they should make it an option for Veterans as well.
But they should really just fix it by letting company commanders or platoon commanders buy a bike as an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melackholy wrote: Up front, I have not played 40k and I have only painted a few many many years ago. I'm looking at the different armies and want to get into 40k mostly for the modelling. I like the underdog feel the the IG/AM has. Fluff wise they are stubborn fighters, and participate in many major battles. I wouldn't mind seeing more models, but also more regiments coming in plastic. Or a restructuring of the AM is needed... What do I know? Personally I could see myself building a AM army, if the regiment was not mass assault or tank spam.. Better infantry and light vehicles is what I want to see. But that's me..
For better infantry and good light vehicles, Tempestus Militarum have you covered, my friend!
I know it would be a tall order to wish for the return of Doctrines but... I do wish that we got Doctrines. Oh, and while we're at it, renaming the faction to: "Imperial Guard".
What I don't want? New stuff. At least if they come at the cost of old stuff. We don't need Primaris Guardsmen. Even writing that makes me shudder.
My only concern about regimental doctrine is what it will do to including auxilia like scions, ogryns, and ratlings. I really enjoy having abhumans in an IG army. It gives it more character.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/14 23:09:19
2017/08/14 23:25:02
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
My only concern about regimental doctrine is what it will do to including auxilia like scions, ogryns, and ratlings. I really enjoy having abhumans in an IG army. It gives it more character.
They used to be pretty great when it comes to character. Different regiments like Catachans, Cadians, Tanith, Armageddon, Warhawks and heck, Kanak all had their distinctive combat styles. You could even mix and match to create your own regiment with its own specializations. I know, something like this doesn't sound very 8th edition-ish.
... Also, are you implying that Scions are abhumans? Jokes aside, at least Stormtroopers should be in good place. If they retain what they have now, they wouldn't need regimental doctrines. This would be both balancing and characterful since they do tend to come from outside of normal regiments.
Actual abhumans, though? I don't know... I've never felt like they would be my cup of tea. When I'm thinking about getting some snipers or CC-troops, I tend to look outside of IG.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/14 23:25:41
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/08/14 23:48:59
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
ChargerIIC wrote: Want Melee Infantry options without jumping factions. They don't need to be any better than standard infantry, just need to be able to wield a melee/pistol combination.
Technically command squads can do that, but I agree they should make it an option for Veterans as well.
But they should really just fix it by letting company commanders or platoon commanders buy a bike as an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melackholy wrote: Up front, I have not played 40k and I have only painted a few many many years ago. I'm looking at the different armies and want to get into 40k mostly for the modelling. I like the underdog feel the the IG/AM has. Fluff wise they are stubborn fighters, and participate in many major battles. I wouldn't mind seeing more models, but also more regiments coming in plastic. Or a restructuring of the AM is needed... What do I know? Personally I could see myself building a AM army, if the regiment was not mass assault or tank spam.. Better infantry and light vehicles is what I want to see. But that's me..
For better infantry and good light vehicles, Tempestus Militarum have you covered, my friend!
I know it would be a tall order to wish for the return of Doctrines but... I do wish that we got Doctrines. Oh, and while we're at it, renaming the faction to: "Imperial Guard".
What I don't want? New stuff. At least if they come at the cost of old stuff. We don't need Primaris Guardsmen. Even writing that makes me shudder.
My only concern about regimental doctrine is what it will do to including auxilia like scions, ogryns, and ratlings. I really enjoy having abhumans in an IG army. It gives it more character.
Your probably right. Maybe new units is what I seek, I don't know. The Elysian drop troops from FW has some alore but are maybe to light.
Restructure the whole thing, add new types of vehicles in the light(sentinels etc) and medium (chimaeras/Leman Russ) categories. I'm not a fan of the look of the heavies. Update infantry gear and guns some.
2017/08/15 16:22:51
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
What I would like to see? Actual model range diversity and support that's representitive of the faction within the lore/setting. So, complete plastic ranges released for;
"Complete" ranges being; a box of Infantry, a Command box, Heavy Weapons teams, all special weapon options, vehicle crew, and ideally at least one "hero" box consisting of a special character or unit per Regiment. They should also each come with their own Doctrine/Battle Tactic/etc to help flavour them up a bit and differentiate them. Oh and all plastic sprues should be as interchangable and kit-bashable as possible for people wanting to mix-and-match and/or make homebrew Regiments. Oh and they should include female models. Basically Victoria Miniatures should be what the GW Imperial Guard range should look like.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
2017/08/15 18:31:54
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
This so much. only things she doesn't make are Tallarn and and steel legion style heads. But if you take her Rausenburg Siege Corps bodies and Mad Robot Miniatures shocktroop heads its a dead ringer for Armageddon's finest
The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns.
2017/08/15 19:17:54
Subject: Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Pretty sure if they had anything on her, they'd have done it by now. As long as she avoids any blatant names (like Leman Russ) or imagery (like double-headed eagle) she should be fine.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
2017/08/15 19:54:31
Subject: Re:Imperial Guard--What would you like to see?
Future War Cultist wrote: Would you guys rather retain traditional command squads or go down the marines route and make the medic and standard bearers stand alone characters?
We do need a new plastic range though. One with all the options. The up and coming necromunda range shows what's possible.
I would rather they move all upgrade options from the command squad to the infantry squad, and just eliminate the command squads.
The Empire 
1500 pts
: 
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k
