Yeah I think Tigurius is an awesome escort for it. If I'm running a counts as Ultramarines, I'm totally willing to pay an extra 25 points for what he brings to the table over a normal Librarian. 2 per turn, 3 spells, a +1 to deny, and reroll of failed psychic tests is nice. Heck he's almost too good to not take. I already like the UM chapter tactics, so I think I may end up using them more often than not. Their selection of special characters is of course a great added bonus. My previous games I've used the Ravenguard tactic, which is also good, but my opponents often favor in your face armies anyway so I don't get much use out of it.
Trade_Prince wrote: Whichever you take though, Imperial Guard with 6 Primes, 6 LR tanks supported by Scions and Conscripts make a Repulsor or Raven look like a bit of a joke.
That's not even close to even on the points front lol
There's a pretty strong case for running Azrael with repulsors. He's not all that expensive, pretty good in his own right, and hands out a 4++ to everyone nearby. It's a pretty serious set of bonuses. You could potentially have a darkshroud too, though I think the enemy might take it down with smaller-arms (autocannons etc) before turning the big guns on the repulsors.
Given how armies need to be more mobile these days, especially Marines with their rather limited range, what is the opinion about switching Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons to the Assault variant and play Reivers as well to cover more of the board and put more pressure easier?
Trade_Prince wrote: Given how armies need to be more mobile these days, especially Marines with their rather limited range, what is the opinion about switching Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons to the Assault variant and play Reivers as well to cover more of the board and put more pressure easier?
Reivers are very good dispite the dakka hate. The assault version of weapons aren't worth it though. you can be plenty mobile with rapid fire as you suffer no penalty to hit and are rewarded with double damage when you get half range.
Trade_Prince wrote: Given how armies need to be more mobile these days, especially Marines with their rather limited range, what is the opinion about switching Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons to the Assault variant and play Reivers as well to cover more of the board and put more pressure easier?
There is really no point ever taking the auto bolt rifle. Reivers have the exact same weapon (bizarrely with different name and model) and cost less. (They don't get ob sec, but that's not really worth the price.)
Sure, you suffer no penalty for Rapid Fire, but you will fire only one shot for quite a while. Also, Assault 2 with the -1 from running is equal to 1 shot with -1AP against 3+ and better than the Rapid Fire one against 4+ and worse.
Also, what about the Assault 2 Hellblasters, provided you have AT fire from other models? More shots and being able to put more pressure on backfield campers earlier seems worth it to me.
While occasional cross fire and playing on hammer and anvil this might happen. but at 15" for most primarus weapons its going to be pretty rare to not get 2 taps.
argonak wrote:
I have not seen one in the flesh, could you post a pic comparing it to a rhino? Mine still hasn’t arrived.
Mandragola wrote:Its quite a bit bigger than a rhino - closer to a land raider really. It isn’t easy to hide.
It’s almost exactly the size of a LR. This is me seeing if it would fit into the KR slot for my LR:
It’s resting on the base/flight stand and the top of the hull is just about where the top of a LR would be. The turret, of course, will be higher then that. Slightly narrower due to the lack of sponsons, and a hair longer.
I've played Intercessor and hellblasters with the Assault weapons under White Scars rules. The Intercessors played meh to okay. The regular Bolt Rifle just gets more hits and wounds. The Hellblasters played good.
I gave up on them, as they still weren't quite fast enough to get where I wanted.
I could see assault Hellblasters maybe working as somewhat mobile MEQ hunters. In that role they could be effective without a captain babysitting them, as you wouldn't need to overcharge.
But the rapid fire ones are just so versatile, I'd probably realistically almost always take them regardless.
It is such a shame that when they gave Primaris these weapon options, thy bungled the rules so that the standard variant is clearly the best anyway. I guess they're not in any hurry to sell those multipart kits, as the Dark Imperium models are cheap and plentiful and come with the best guns...
duWhee wrote: I've played Intercessor and hellblasters with the Assault weapons under White Scars rules. The Intercessors played meh to okay. The regular Bolt Rifle just gets more hits and wounds. The Hellblasters played good.
I gave up on them, as they still weren't quite fast enough to get where I wanted.
What if the Primaris got a flying landspeeder razorback cross?
M14", T7, W10, armed with an onlslaught cannon and Icarus Rocket Pod. Carries 6 Primaris Marines. Not open-topped. 90 points, +16 for the OGC and 6 for the rocket pod bringing it to 112 points.
duWhee wrote: I've played Intercessor and hellblasters with the Assault weapons under White Scars rules. The Intercessors played meh to okay. The regular Bolt Rifle just gets more hits and wounds. The Hellblasters played good.
I gave up on them, as they still weren't quite fast enough to get where I wanted.
What if the Primaris got a flying landspeeder razorback cross?
M14", T7, W10, armed with an onlslaught cannon and Icarus Rocket Pod. Carries 6 Primaris Marines. Not open-topped. 90 points, +16 for the OGC and 6 for the rocket pod bringing it to 112 points.
What about that? Too cheap?
lol, in your dream man To be all honest, I think your proposal rightfully priced it, and it is what Primaris Marines desperately want: a decent priced transport. However, just compare it to a landspeeder of around 111pts (heavy bolter and assault cannon version), your transport have 1 more toughness, around 4 more wounds, a slight reduction in fire power but can transport 6 Primaris Marines, for just 1 point more expensive? GW would not like that. Given the fact that most of the Marine units are overpriced in 8th edition, I guess GW would price your proposal at minimum 140pts.
I used Rapid Fire Hellblasters as a primary source of anti tank, but this backfires as they become a primary target and the rise of -1 hurts them. Now I use LCs on the Repulsor, Razorbacks and FW vehicles, so that Hellblasters can hunt other stuff. This is why I recon Assault 2 without overcharging has merrits.
Trade_Prince wrote: I used Rapid Fire Hellblasters as a primary source of anti tank, but this backfires as they become a primary target and the rise of -1 hurts them. Now I use LCs on the Repulsor, Razorbacks and FW vehicles, so that Hellblasters can hunt other stuff. This is why I recon Assault 2 without overcharging has merrits.
It provides great flexibility and volume of fire, if nothing else.
Tried this setup today and actually crushed an Eldar I previously lost to. The running allowed me to get around LOS blockers really fast and disable Dark Reapers really well all while scoring. The reason you take them is to have maximum output as soon as possible. Marines do not stay long, so maximize the time they are on the board. The alpha strike was immense.
I guess I really underestimated the power of Assault 2 guns and moving with heavy weapons to get a better vantage point.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah honestly I think the assault hellblasters are the strongest. Against dark reapers that's obviously the case, as you even wound on a 2+.
Being able to get two shots at 24" range rather than 15" is a huge, huge improvement. It means you do it on turn one and from a much safer distance.
It is pretty questionable advantage though. Against many preferred targets of the plasma, strength 8 shots are drastically better than strength 6 or 7 shots.
I always use the standard hellblaster gun because of the superior range does let you reach out to distant targets and the assault variant is only better in the 16-24 in range. While this is common its not enough to make me pay more points and lose a very important strength point for it. I mean yeah it does let you advance and shoot, but if you overcharge thats very dangerous and on top of that I rarely ever find myself advancing with them. Usually they find cover, sit and shoot. In my games they are too heavily focused to not camp cover and having the extra range lets them do this better.
The rapid fire one does clearly have advantages. It's what I've been using myself so far. I find that they can very often disembark from their repulsor and double tap things on turn 1, especially if I'm going second.
Assault hellblasters have great synergy with ravenguard CTs though. They want to keep some distance from the enemy, and are therefore very happy to trade a point of strength against getting a second shot.
It's annoying how bad the heavy ones are. One shot means less damage against any target and that -1 to hit if they move is incredibly punishing for a plasma weapon. And for some reason they are the most expensive. Shame, as the backpacks are cool I think.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I always use the standard hellblaster gun because of the superior range does let you reach out to distant targets and the assault variant is only better in the 16-24 in range. While this is common its not enough to make me pay more points and lose a very important strength point for it. I mean yeah it does let you advance and shoot, but if you overcharge thats very dangerous and on top of that I rarely ever find myself advancing with them. Usually they find cover, sit and shoot. In my games they are too heavily focused to not camp cover and having the extra range lets them do this better.
You hunt different targets with the assault variant compared to the RF one. You're much more likely to be using them to move in and clear out dangerous back field infantry targets right from the beginning rather than overcharging on vehicles from range. Then they move around targeting tough multiwound infantry. That means you'll have to bring something else to put damage on vehicles because even though the assault guns will work in a pinch, they won't be the best source of AT. That's not to say the RF are the best at hunting tanks - they're good, but not the best. Either way, your opponent will focus them as if they are the best, so it's mostly irrelevant.
Which, in my experience, has resulted in the assault guys sticking around much much longer since they aren't the obvious primary target anymore, all while putting out more damage in the first turn than the RF ones were for me, then either being ignored a bit to deal with the big guns. If they do get focused, it's a blow, but not the huge impact it was when I was using the RF ones as part of a static gunline.
You hunt different targets with the assault variant compared to the RF one. You're much more likely to be using them to move in and clear out dangerous back field infantry targets right from the beginning rather than overcharging on vehicles from range. Then they move around targeting tough multiwound infantry. That means you'll have to bring something else to put damage on vehicles because even though the assault guns will work in a pinch, they won't be the best source of AT. That's not to say the RF are the best at hunting tanks - they're good, but not the best. Either way, your opponent will focus them as if they are the best, so it's mostly irrelevant.
But against what targets they're actually good against and are there enough such targets to warrant inclusion of this unit? I'm willing to be convinced as I'd like to have some variety on my lists, but S8 just seems too good to pass.
Which, in my experience, has resulted in the assault guys sticking around much much longer since they aren't the obvious primary target anymore, all while putting out more damage in the first turn than the RF ones were for me, then either being ignored a bit to deal with the big guns. If they do get focused, it's a blow, but not the huge impact it was when I was using the RF ones as part of a static gunline.
'They suck so much that the enemy doesn't bother to kill them' doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement to me...
Crimson wrote: I could see assault Hellblasters maybe working as somewhat mobile MEQ hunters. In that role they could be effective without a captain babysitting them, as you wouldn't need to overcharge.
But the rapid fire ones are just so versatile, I'd probably realistically almost always take them regardless.
It is such a shame that when they gave Primaris these weapon options, thy bungled the rules so that the standard variant is clearly the best anyway. I guess they're not in any hurry to sell those multipart kits, as the Dark Imperium models are cheap and plentiful and come with the best guns...
I got the 10 hellblaster box and use the heavy plasma on the model but I still play them as rapid fire.
But against what targets they're actually good against and are there enough such targets to warrant inclusion of this unit? I'm willing to be convinced as I'd like to have some variety on my lists, but S8 just seems too good to pass.
'They suck so much that the enemy doesn't bother to kill them' doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement to me...
Well, I'd find it hard taking you seriously with that comment - that clearly wasn't what I said.
Look at it this way - you put a lot of stock into Rapid Fire Hellblasters, that's clear, but their damage output is weaker outside of 15'' because of the nature of rapid fire weapons. Still nothing to scoff at, and if they can close within 15'', they'll double it. That's the true meaning of pain. But that also means that the perfect time to kill them is well before they get close enough when their damage is half of what it can be. It makes target priority easy. No question - Kill them before they can bring those RF blasters to bear on something valuable. The assault versions muddy the waters a little bit for your opponent as there is less of a time constraint there. They're going to bring their full damage potential to the forefront almost immediately, but it won't spike like it can with the rapid fire ones when they close in. They trade that for extra mobility. That has both a strategic and psychological benefit - the enemy won't expect them to be as dangerous as they actually are (just like you), but it also means those other targets worthy of their attention are now competing for their focus. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra tactical benefits - they have the ability to push deep towards the enemy's back line with that extra mobility. Of course, you'd want to avoid overcharging if you're going to advance, but the weapon's str and AP is enough to pressure the right targets - high toughness models, or ones in cover that need to be erased quickly. In the games I've played with both units, RF Hellblasters can carry games if they can get into double tap, but because of that they're going to attract a lot of attention early, so you either spend a boatload of points on protecting them with a Repulsor or you hide them in cover at range where their damage is neutered all game.
Look at it this way - you put a lot of stock into Rapid Fire Hellblasters, that's clear, but their damage output is weaker outside of 15'' because of the nature of rapid fire weapons. Still nothing to scoff at, and if they can close within 15'', they'll double it. That's the true meaning of pain. But that also means that the perfect time to kill them is well before they get close enough when their damage is half of what it can be. It makes target priority easy. No question - Kill them before they can bring those RF blasters to bear on something valuable. The assault versions muddy the waters a little bit for your opponent as there is less of a time constraint there. They're going to bring their full damage potential to the forefront almost immediately, but it won't spike like it can with the rapid fire ones when they close in. They trade that for extra mobility. That has both a strategic and psychological benefit - the enemy won't expect them to be as dangerous as they actually are (just like you), but it also means those other targets worthy of their attention are now competing for their focus. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra tactical benefits - they have the ability to push deep towards the enemy's back line with that extra mobility. Of course, you'd want to avoid overcharging if you're going to advance, but the weapon's str and AP is enough to pressure the right targets - high toughness models, or ones in cover that need to be erased quickly. In the games I've played with both units, RF Hellblasters can carry games if they can get into double tap, but because of that they're going to attract a lot of attention early, so you either spend a boatload of points on protecting them with a Repulsor or you hide them in cover at range where their damage is neutered all game.
Hmm... That is actually pretty decent analysis. I guess the worth of the assault guns highly depends on the prevalence of heavily armoured single wound models.
Look at it this way - you put a lot of stock into Rapid Fire Hellblasters, that's clear, but their damage output is weaker outside of 15'' because of the nature of rapid fire weapons. Still nothing to scoff at, and if they can close within 15'', they'll double it. That's the true meaning of pain. But that also means that the perfect time to kill them is well before they get close enough when their damage is half of what it can be. It makes target priority easy. No question - Kill them before they can bring those RF blasters to bear on something valuable. The assault versions muddy the waters a little bit for your opponent as there is less of a time constraint there. They're going to bring their full damage potential to the forefront almost immediately, but it won't spike like it can with the rapid fire ones when they close in. They trade that for extra mobility. That has both a strategic and psychological benefit - the enemy won't expect them to be as dangerous as they actually are (just like you), but it also means those other targets worthy of their attention are now competing for their focus. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra tactical benefits - they have the ability to push deep towards the enemy's back line with that extra mobility. Of course, you'd want to avoid overcharging if you're going to advance, but the weapon's str and AP is enough to pressure the right targets - high toughness models, or ones in cover that need to be erased quickly. In the games I've played with both units, RF Hellblasters can carry games if they can get into double tap, but because of that they're going to attract a lot of attention early, so you either spend a boatload of points on protecting them with a Repulsor or you hide them in cover at range where their damage is neutered all game.
Hmm... That is actually pretty decent analysis. I guess the worth of the assault guns highly depends on the prevalence of heavily armoured single wound models.
That's definitely true, but I think it's important to mention that each weapon shines in different ways without there being a clear superior option, I feel. Not to mention they can still be overcharged for the extra damage when you don't need to advance.
Tried the Assault versions several times now. The alpha is definitely stronger. With the Guilliman bonus to run and the re-rolls it allowed me to seal games T1. The extra shot early on beats having a stronger weapon at 15". Conaidering that the Bolters are equal to the RF ones against 3+ even if they ran should make the point well enough. Plus, the increased mobility at the price of giving up full re-rols was worth it in many cases, though it still hard to justify not taking Guilliman.
A note on the Hellblasters. Though their Assault weapons are worse against tanks, it made them less of a threat, which was very welcome.
One thing I haven't seen much in the assault vs rapid fire discussion is which chapter you use.
For Raven guard it seems to me that the assault is a much better choice if you want to make use of the -1 to hit bonus. Two shots at 24" range is better than 1, and staying at that range ensures the -1 bonus against most units. 15" means units are able to move up and fire at 12" or less which negates the -1 to hit. I think the extra 9" of double shot range is a bigger point in the discussion than the ability to advance and fire, though the extra mobility does help.
It is also of note that for those 9" the assault gun is better against all targets compared to the Rapid fire variant.
Even with Ravenguard I believe it comes down to alpha strike, though from a different perspective. RG is the only Chapter that can bring dudes into Rapid Fire range T1, meaning they will hit harder than others at the cost of staying power, as they will be too close to keep outside 12" consistently.
For all others it is alpha strike at an increased price.
My ravenguard-playing friend uses a squad of each type of hellblasters (not including the awful heavies).
He doesn’t often infiltrate them. They don’t especially need it and you give up in survivability as much as you gain in alpha. It’s pricey in cps too, as you need to send a captain with them.
The unit that really gains from sfts is aggressors. He can set up a squad of 5 just within 18” and fire an average of 95 shots. It does a hell of a lot of damage.
Trade_Prince wrote: Even with Ravenguard I believe it comes down to alpha strike, though from a different perspective. RG is the only Chapter that can bring dudes into Rapid Fire range T1, meaning they will hit harder than others at the cost of staying power, as they will be too close to keep outside 12" consistently.
For all others it is alpha strike at an increased price.
I get that but depending on target there isn't that big of a difference in output for that risk. Mostly it would matter against T8 models as those models tend to have a lot of wounds, the Rapid fire against those targets averages 19 wounds, the Assault variant only 12, so it likely won't wipe out the model. (though for super heavies this is true for both varients). T7 you are looking at 24 wounds from rapid fire and 19 from assault, most T7 models don't have that many wounds. Now if invul saves come into play that can make some difference as a 4+ save drops the assault version to 9-10 wounds, vs 12 wounds. So for things like hive tyrants that is relavant, but at that point you are largely trading your rapid fire squad for the tyrant which is likely not the best trade.
I'll need to play around with both a bit more, but I can see value on the extra range at the slightly lower damage output as it might ensure you getting 2 turns of fire.
It’s going to cost you somewhere between 700 and 750 points, depending on loadout. That’s a very significant investment when compared to some of the IG superheavies that come in from under 400. But the Astaeus is a better vehicle than they are. I guess it’s worth mentioning that you can’t take a squadron of 3 in 2k points – if anyone had been planning to.
The Astraeus has a load of new weapons on it, few of which have been seen elsewhere. What look like twin lascannon sponsons are actually las rippers, and what look like the Redemptor’s macro plasma incinerator is instead a plasma eradicator. In both cases they are weaker than they seem, though not useless. On the whole I think the las rippers might be better, though their 24” range is quite a limitation. It’s probably not a huge problem that the plasma eradicators can overheat, as you’d probably always want to have a captain near a thing like this anyway, but I don’t think they do enough damage.
As you’d expect, the main gun is a beast. It has a very high rate of fire and does 3 damage, though its strength 8 and AP -2 aren’t all that amazing. The effect is a gun that’s good for firing at virtually any target, which is a nice thing to have on a vehicle that’s probably the centrepiece of your army. It’s particularly good at killing stuff that flies as it ignores their abilities that penalise its hit rolls – meaning Alaitoc Hemlocks won’t last long against it at all.
Defensively you’ve got a 2+ save, T8, 24 wounds and 5+ void shields. The 2+ saves actually mean the void shields are largely irrelevant, as they only come into effect against stuff with a -4 save mod or better, and that’s quite rare. They also don’t do anything in cc.
This means that the Astraeus is quite actually fairly vulnerable to enemy fire, on a points per wound basis. For around the cost of 4 predators you’re getting an awful lot fewer wounds – albeit with a better toughness, save and void shields. But those things aren’t too relevant if a shadowsword takes a pop at you.
Assaulting the thing ought to be difficult, as you need to subtract 3” from the charge distance. Forget about deep strike assaults. The Astraeus is free to then fall back, shoot and charge something else if it wants. In fact it’s actually quite dangerous, with a load of attacks at S9 and a proper CCW. Against gunlines it may be sensible to have the Astraeus charge enemy tanks to prevent them from firing at it.
On the whole I think it’s a decent tank, but not gamebreaking or essential. Go ahead and get one if you like the model – though as with all the big FW stuff you should first consult your financial advisor.
Mandragola wrote: [...]Defensively you’ve got a 2+ save, T8, 24 wounds and 5+ void shields. The 2+ saves actually mean the void shields are largely irrelevant, as they only come into effect against stuff with a -4 save mod or better, and that’s quite rare. They also don’t do anything in cc.[...]
Void shields also work against Mortal wounds. So they're more useful than just against -4 AP wounds.
Mandragola wrote: [...]Defensively you’ve got a 2+ save, T8, 24 wounds and 5+ void shields. The 2+ saves actually mean the void shields are largely irrelevant, as they only come into effect against stuff with a -4 save mod or better, and that’s quite rare. They also don’t do anything in cc.[...]
Void shields also work against Mortal wounds. So they're more useful than just against -4 AP wounds.
Yeah true. I meant to include that. I guess the breakdown was long enough already though.
In general my point was that they don't do all that much, and I think that's correct. Even when they do work, they only give a 5++, which means they fail 2/3 of the time. And marines get a stratagem to give a vehicle a 5++ against mortal wounds.
Will we see a bit of a resurgence in Primaris forces with CA? The leaks look to be pretty legit now, which means a haircut for Agressors and Intercessors, and a big cut in Inceptor prices.
The really serious change (that we know about) is clearly to Inceptors. Inceptors are the unit that probably benefits least from the ravenguard CTs - which are currently probably the best CTs going. So this could have an effect of balancing out the relative power of the different chapters - at least up to a point.
The intercessor and aggressor price cuts are both welcome too, if not so significant. I ran 15 intercessors and 5 aggressors in my list for the GT, so that would save my army 60 points - which is enough to buy some useful new toys.
I'm not aware of any rules changes though. This means that the weapon options for these various units will probably remain the same - heavy intercessors and hellblasters will still be obviously the worst choices, for example.
I'm looking forward to using more dakka inceptors with my crimson fists. I'm considering a squad of 5. My army has been lacking a unit that can deep strike and these guys would more than fit the bill.
I might also be adding a bit of Forgeworld stuff here and there. I expect my Xiphon's price will go up (it definitely should!) but it's interesting to see that Sicarans are getting cheaper. I've always wanted a Venator and it would be a great fit for the ranged AT slot, where Primaris can currently be a bit weak.
That said, with the price cuts, Heavy Intercessors cost the same as the regular ones now.
I think there's something to be said for that at least. You save a few points when going that route now and ignore Conscript armor.
Plasma Inceptors are now pretty good looking to me. 6D3 plasma shots for 177pt (fingers crossed) buys them a seat at the top table as far as marine deepstrike options go...
It's true that heavy intercessors are cheaper, but so are intercessors with guns that don't suck. Unless there's a change in cost for the guns I can't see myself taking the heavies any time soon.
Plasma inceptors are a really tricky one to figure out for me. The problem is that, with an average of 4 shots each, they will explode a lot if overcharging - as in you can expect to lose two out of a squad of three.
So this means you need rerolls, and getting them isn't especially easy for a unit that deep strikes.
So overall I'm not sure if they are actually better than assault hellblasters. 175 buys you 10 shots, which is fewer and at a lower strength, but they are much easier to keep near a captain.
Ultramarine plasma inteptors using the reroll 1s stratagem are solid gold. Salamanders ones are a bit less insane.
Overall I think that plasma and dakka inceptors are extremely different units, performing different battlefield roles. Dakka inceptors in my crimson fist army will make a decent back field nuisance unit, good at hunting things like snipers, devastators etc. and clearing enemies of objectives. Plasma guys can instead be dropped in near a captain to unleash extreme firepower, killing tanks and heavy infantry.
Plasma inceptors are a really tricky one to figure out for me. The problem is that, with an average of 4 shots each, they will explode a lot if overcharging - as in you can expect to lose two out of a squad of three.
With the high number of shots they'll fry themselves pretty regularly even with re-rolls.
Mandragola wrote: It's true that heavy intercessors are cheaper, but so are intercessors with guns that don't suck. Unless there's a change in cost for the guns I can't see myself taking the heavies any time soon.
Plasma inceptors are a really tricky one to figure out for me. The problem is that, with an average of 4 shots each, they will explode a lot if overcharging - as in you can expect to lose two out of a squad of three.
So this means you need rerolls, and getting them isn't especially easy for a unit that deep strikes.
So overall I'm not sure if they are actually better than assault hellblasters. 175 buys you 10 shots, which is fewer and at a lower strength, but they are much easier to keep near a captain.
Ultramarine plasma inteptors using the reroll 1s stratagem are solid gold. Salamanders ones are a bit less insane.
Overall I think that plasma and dakka inceptors are extremely different units, performing different battlefield roles. Dakka inceptors in my crimson fist army will make a decent back field nuisance unit, good at hunting things like snipers, devastators etc. and clearing enemies of objectives. Plasma guys can instead be dropped in near a captain to unleash extreme firepower, killing tanks and heavy infantry.
It makes me really hopeful for the future possible release of Primaris Captains with Grav Chutes or Inceptor Jetpacks.
The only Plasma Inceptors I see working are those using the UM Stratagem or those dropping with a Captain or CM from the non-Primaris roster. Given how fast Guilliman can be, it might be possible to land them in bis 12” re-roll 1s bubble.
If you just want a harassement unit like Reivers, you are better off bullying infantry units with the Bolters instead of risking Plasmas.
Assault Plasmas, Assault Intercessors, Plasma Inceptors, Primaris are capable of a pretty vicious alpha strike outside of the Ravenguard Stratagem.
Here is the question though. What lists are capable of accommodating Aggressors and Inceptors of any kind? My mostly-Primaris Guilliman list, while 76pts more expensive, was already pretty stuffed. I ran Guilliman, Tiggy, PrimLib, 2 Las Razors, 2 units of 5 Scouts with HB, 10 Assault Intercessors, total of 6 HB Tarantulas, Primaris Ancient, dakka Repulsor and 6 Assault Hellblasters. Now this whole list need to be rebuilt from ground up. So yes, how do we incorporate and optimize Gravis armour in Primaris lists?
Also, @Mandragola, How did the 15 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors perform?
Trade_Prince wrote: The only Plasma Inceptors I see working are those using the UM Stratagem or those dropping with a Captain or CM from the non-Primaris roster. Given how fast Guilliman can be, it might be possible to land them in bis 12” re-roll 1s bubble.
If you just want a harassement unit like Reivers, you are better off bullying infantry units with the Bolters instead of risking Plasmas.
Assault Plasmas, Assault Intercessors, Plasma Inceptors, Primaris are capable of a pretty vicious alpha strike outside of the Ravenguard Stratagem.
Here is the question though. What lists are capable of accommodating Aggressors and Inceptors of any kind? My mostly-Primaris Guilliman list, while 76pts more expensive, was already pretty stuffed. I ran Guilliman, Tiggy, PrimLib, 2 Las Razors, 2 units of 5 Scouts with HB, 10 Assault Intercessors, total of 6 HB Tarantulas, Primaris Ancient, dakka Repulsor and 6 Assault Hellblasters. Now this whole list need to be rebuilt from ground up. So yes, how do we incorporate and optimize Gravis armour in Primaris lists?
Also, @Mandragola, How did the 15 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors perform?
Lots of points available if you dropped girlyman. Jus' sayin'
Sure, but I like the win the occasional competitive game
I tried running Captain and even Calgar + Lieutenant and it is no replacement. The re-rolls to hit isn't as important. The re-rolls to wound is what makes him so powerful. Elite armies suffer from extreme dice due to the low amount of rolls you make. Guilliman gives Primaris armies precisely what they are lacking in order to succeed, reliability.
Trade_Prince wrote: Sure, but I like the win the occasional competitive game
I tried running Captain and even Calgar + Lieutenant and it is no replacement. The re-rolls to hit isn't as important. The re-rolls to wound is what makes him so powerful. Elite armies suffer from extreme dice due to the low amount of rolls you make. Guilliman gives Primaris armies precisely what they are lacking in order to succeed, reliability.
I agree, sort of - devoting 385 points to a single model ensures you have a low amount of rolls, but increases the efficacy of those you do have. That's true. But the amount of rolls you get with those 385 points spent elsewhere is pretty high, too.
I hate Girlyman because he's the crutch that simultaneously props up the force while encouraging static play and boring thinking.
Trade_Prince wrote: Guilliman isn't even the topic right now. We are talking about how the new point will impact Primaris list composition.
I'm sorry, but that's not true. In the past few posts we moved on to finding ways to take advantage of the points reductions and how one would, with a specific current list, find a way to work in units affected by the reductions. So, naturally, the subject became about how much you gain by trading him out by specifically identifying what he brings and including those particular units at their new price point that mitigate that loss the most.
Seems perfectly on topic to me, mate. New lists will come out of these price drops, and I think it's fair to examine how to shift old, effective lists to take advantage.
Trade_Prince wrote: Guilliman isn't even the topic right now. We are talking about how the new point will impact Primaris list composition.
I'm sorry, but that's not true. In the past few posts we moved on to finding ways to take advantage of the points reductions and how one would, with a specific current list, find a way to work in units affected by the reductions. So, naturally, the subject became about how much you gain by trading him out by specifically identifying what he brings and including those particular units at their new price point that mitigate that loss the most.
Seems perfectly on topic to me, mate. New lists will come out of these price drops, and I think it's fair to examine how to shift old, effective lists to take advantage.
A'ight, let me put it a bit more specific. My personal question that I wanted to discuss did not necessarily include Guilliman. Of course he is on topic. Guilliman is always on topic in every topic. I just wanted to chat about how the point adjustments change the way we field Primaris and what other units may now be good to supplement those
The changes are really nice I think. The all primaris force still lacks in dedicated anti tank beyond hellblasters with their rapid fire gun. I think the best gain Primaris forces got was the ability to ally in more supportive fire power like guard tanks or heavy weapon teams.
Trade_Prince wrote: Also, @Mandragola, How did the 15 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors perform?
The intercessors have always performed well. They are cheap enough to use as a screen, tough enough to require serious firepower to remove and dangerous enough to justify bringing. Something that's often ignored is that they are as good in cc as a lot of dedicated assault units while also having a decent gun and two wounds. They do kill things, and they benefit quite a bit from ignoring cover with my CTs because the things they fight are enemy troops - who hide in cover a lot. They are kind of exactly what I want in a troop unit.
The aggressors are much more of a mixed bag. I actually brought them expecting to see loads of hordes and in the end never came up against them, meaning the aggressors never really did their proper job.
What I found was that they are difficult to deploy correctly. They want to cross the board because they are short ranged, but they aren't very good at it. This meant that they tended to work much more as a defensive unit if people were trying to rush me, which they didn't always do.
There were certainly times when they did very good things. When they got to stand still and fire they tended to kill whatever they were pointed at, even including knocking a lot of wounds off vehicles just with sheer weight of fire. They were often able to split their fire between different units and hose away problems. But on the other hand they die pretty easily for their cost and they don't have a threatening reach, so they felt pretty useless in games against mechanised gunlines. I ended up using them essentially as a distraction in a game against a dark angel parking lot, for example - which worked overall. I won the game.
I'm going to experiment more with putting some in a repulsor. I think there's a decent chance this could be the thing they need to get across the board and start wrecking faces. Only problem is that it prevents them from using auspex scan, but I'm not forced to deploy them aboard.
Having played the aggressors a few times i find that they are really hard to position or they get out maneuvered enough that i never ever get the opportunity to do the double shots.
kinda makes me sad. otherwise they still do put out a lot of bolter shots even without it and they have clutched some punches.
I have yet to play agressors, but they seem like they would only really work for raven guard, use the CP to infiltrate them to turn 1 not move and fire at the opponents chaff.
That said with the points drop, I think inceptors are the better unit due to their mobility, deepstrike and higher strength and AP gun.
For imperial fists they certainly are the better unit ignoring cover with AP -1.
Breng77 wrote: I have yet to play agressors, but they seem like they would only really work for raven guard, use the CP to infiltrate them to turn 1 not move and fire at the opponents chaff.
That said with the points drop, I think inceptors are the better unit due to their mobility, deepstrike and higher strength and AP gun.
For imperial fists they certainly are the better unit ignoring cover with AP -1.
This is, irritatingly, true.
For the price of 5 aggressors in a repulsor I can have more than twice that many inceptors deep striking to wherever they need to be. This is irritating because I've got two repulsors and some repulsors that I've painted up. Now I need to paint some inceptors and put a repulsor into semi-retirement. Or have someone else ride in it I guess.
iv run them a few times now and generally they have pulled there weight knocking a few MEQs out and putting out a decent amount of overwatch without even needing to double tap.
sure you are not getting absolute maximum advantage out of it but its still a decent amount of shooting. with a decent enough cc punch.
im thinking however that this may be because i dont fight gunlines as often.
I think Aggressors have their place. Maybe just take 3 dudes with Bolters and do not be afraid of mobility. They benefit from running as well as from standing still. Keep the unit small and move them tactically. If there are more distractions or high profile units around, they may just perform well. Maybe even just move up a flank and bully isolated units. The Power Fists are there for a reason, after all
Anyone found a trick to making reiver shock grenades work? That six inch range is just such a downer.
Also, how long does it last? It says until "the end of the turn," does that mean my turn or the game turn?
If I go first, does that mean my opponent on his half of the game turn is taking the -1 to hit? If I'm second, does that mean he never has that affect him?
argonak wrote: Anyone found a trick to making reiver shock grenades work? That six inch range is just such a downer.
Also, how long does it last? It says until "the end of the turn," does that mean my turn or the game turn?
If I go first, does that mean my opponent on his half of the game turn is taking the -1 to hit? If I'm second, does that mean he never has that affect him?
Game turns are known as battle rounds. If something says till the end of the turn that means it lasts until THAT turn is over not that battle round. So if say you use a shock grenade on your enemy it will only last until your turn is over meaning it will only be effective if the enemy unit affected by the grenade makes an attack in your turn.
I have not had much luck with them, but my friend who runs Raven Guard has gotten some solid use out of them entirely because of strike from the shadows. I am thinking they could also be really solid with Blood Angel tactics, but my only real concern is actually getting them in a fight. The best you can do is either put them in the expensive as balls repulsor or hope they make a 9 inch charge after deep striking in.
Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Have you had much success using this strat? It seems like it would be very setup dependent, and easily avoidable once your opponent knows you can do it. I want to like reivers: primaris are very immobile and a cheap, harassing unit would be welcome, but I'm having a hard time justifying them in my force. If the sergeant could get a power sword, it would make all the difference.
It works. Unless your opponent is willimg to set up play with a 9" bubble around all scenery of any depth, foresaking all cover saves and los blocks,, then theyll get their opportunity! Played them 3 times since i learned of this strat and had plenty of opportunities with them every game. It transforms their usefulness imo, and returns them to what they do best - delivering 16CC knifey attacks wherever you need them.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can you explain how can their charge roll be less than 9'', i don't get it.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can yu explain how can their charge roll can be less than 9'', i don't get it.
Let's say your opponent has ruins near a board edge. He deploys a unit on the third floor. You can then come in from reserves on the ground level off the board edge and be 9" inches away. However, when you move, you will disregard the height in measuring distances. So the enemy unit could be 9" away, but only 3" or 4" away when you disregard height in the calculation and only measure horizontally to determine charge range.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can yu explain how can their charge roll can be less than 9'', i don't get it.
Let's say your opponent has ruins near a board edge. He deploys a unit on the third floor. You can then come in from reserves on the ground level off the board edge and be 9" inches away. However, when you move, you will disregard the height in measuring distances. So the enemy unit could be 9" away, but only 3" or 4" away when you disregard height in the calculation and only measure horizontally to determine charge range.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can yu explain how can their charge roll can be less than 9'', i don't get it.
Let's say your opponent has ruins near a board edge. He deploys a unit on the third floor. You can then come in from reserves on the ground level off the board edge and be 9" inches away. However, when you move, you will disregard the height in measuring distances. So the enemy unit could be 9" away, but only 3" or 4" away when you disregard height in the calculation and only measure horizontally to determine charge range.
So do you measure to the base or top of the model for the reavers?
I measure from base: as they ignore height i treat them as on the same plain as the opposing unit. Quick note: you can also strike onto the top of a ruin if your opponemt didnt set up in them, for the same effect. Classic 40k scenery is great for reivers. Also, i take grav and grapple for110pts, to allow them to drop anywhere on the board.
Measurements are made base to base as long as models have a base. If the model doesn't have a base, measure to the model. Otherwise, certain units can specify this differently (i.e. hover tanks measure to the model even though it has a base).
From my perspective, reivers are a free upgrade over intercessors with assault bolters. The bolt carbine is identical, they gain heavy bolt pistols and terror troops, and the only thing you lose out on is objective secured.
Basically whenever I'm looking at a picture of a repulsor the marine gunner on top is painted red, is there a reason for this? Like is he a techmarine or some such in the fluff?
I realize I don't have to paint him like that either way but would just like to know if I'm doing some sort of a faux-pas by painting him in the same colour as the tank itself..
Basically whenever I'm looking at a picture of a repulsor the marine gunner on top is painted red, is there a reason for this? Like is he a techmarine or some such in the fluff?
I realize I don't have to paint him like that either way but would just like to know if I'm doing some sort of a faux-pas by painting him in the same colour as the tank itself..
Classically, red is the color of mars and techmarines. Which is why a lot of vehicle crews are sporting it. Not, as the orks would say, because it makes them go faster. You can find plenty of examples where crew members are in normal chapter colors, so I’d not sweat it if you want to go that route. I know I do.
From a Primaris specific POV, I’ve not heard anything that makes them any different then normal marines in this regard.
Okay, thanks. This all makes sense and sounds vaguely familiar but the fact that there are no techmarines for the primaris as of yet made me second guess myself I suppose.
Inceptors are so good now with the points changes, especially with some of the new dexs having very powerful synergy with them. Really happy I managed to pick up 30 a while ago!
Jpr wrote: Inceptors are so good now with the points changes, especially with some of the new dexs having very powerful synergy with them. Really happy I managed to pick up 30 a while ago!
30 Inceptors? Thats a lot!
I used two squads in my last game, one squad of Assault bolters and one squad of plasma. I was really expecting great things of the plasma, but I rolled very poorly on the number of shots (4 1s, seriously), and they ended up doing 4 measly wounds to a venerable dreadnought. And then I poorly positioned them, they had cover but they ended up in pretty decent charge range for the dreadnought and he cleaned their clocks in melee.
The assault bolters on the other hand more than earned their points. They knocked out 4 marines on their first turn, then took out another 5 on their second turn. Where they really earned their points was in withstanding enemy fire though, the T5 and inside a building was just rock hard. They also charged a marine squad later and did some damage in melee, but mostly just were a dangerous distraction. I need to make better use of their speed next time I think. I want to try this same combo again sometime and see if I can get some better luck on the plasma.
Gravis Captain was again man of the hour, facing down Azrael in hand to hand, although it took ages to kill him (came down to 1 wound versus 1 wound, and I got luckier on my invuln saves).
Primaris Librarian did some work as well, mostly with buff spells and motal wounds. If I recall correctly, he did nail Ezekiel for 1 wound with his bolter pistol with some hilarious luck at one point though.
I was seriously impressed with some of the Dark Angel book I saw in action however. Azrael is absolutely an auto take in my opinon. He should clump up with a pack of hellblasters and castle up in the middle of the battlefield I think.
I have my ten reivers built, gonna prime them and see if this whole grapple charge distance shenanigans actually comes up in a couple games. Gonna take a unit of ten.
grouchoben wrote: It works. Unless your opponent is willimg to set up play with a 9" bubble around all scenery of any depth, foresaking all cover saves and los blocks,, then theyll get their opportunity! Played them 3 times since i learned of this strat and had plenty of opportunities with them every game. It transforms their usefulness imo, and returns them to what they do best - delivering 16CC knifey attacks wherever you need them.
I don’t know how this could work, seeing as you have to set them up within 6” of a board edge and 9” away from enemy units. The chance that there is a high enough ruin in this limited area, and that there is a suitable target within charge distance, seems very low.
Indeed, Intercessors, Aggressors, Reivers, Inceptors, and Hellblasters have mostly shooty D1 weapons (up to supercharge plasma which is D2 and the obvious krak grenades). This will not be enough if you face a tank-heavy army.
Today, one needs about 40% of anti-tank/-monster in an army. Thus, taking a full Primaris army will not be sufficient to deal with all threats.
The Repulsor with las-talon (D3), two krak-storm grenade launchers (D3), and twin lascannon (D6) is an anti-tank vehicle, but very costly pointwise.
Indeed, Intercessors, Aggressors, Reivers, Inceptors, and Hellblasters have mostly shooty D1 weapons (up to supercharge plasma which is D2 and the obvious krak grenades). This will not be enough if you face a tank-heavy army.
Today, one needs about 40% of anti-tank/-monster in an army. Thus, taking a full Primaris army will not be sufficient to deal with all threats.
The Repulsor with las-talon (D3), two krak-storm grenade launchers (D3), and twin lascannon (D6) is an anti-tank vehicle, but very costly pointwise.
Yeah, primaris really need some sort of devestator type troop if they’re going to leave the shorties at home.
grouchoben wrote: It works. Unless your opponent is willimg to set up play with a 9" bubble around all scenery of any depth, foresaking all cover saves and los blocks,, then theyll get their opportunity! Played them 3 times since i learned of this strat and had plenty of opportunities with them every game. It transforms their usefulness imo, and returns them to what they do best - delivering 16CC knifey attacks wherever you need them.
I don’t know how this could work, seeing as you have to set them up within 6” of a board edge and 9” away from enemy units. The chance that there is a high enough ruin in this limited area, and that there is a suitable target within charge distance, seems very low.
Indeed, Intercessors, Aggressors, Reivers, Inceptors, and Hellblasters have mostly shooty D1 weapons (up to supercharge plasma which is D2 and the obvious krak grenades). This will not be enough if you face a tank-heavy army.
Today, one needs about 40% of anti-tank/-monster in an army. Thus, taking a full Primaris army will not be sufficient to deal with all threats.
The Repulsor with las-talon (D3), two krak-storm grenade launchers (D3), and twin lascannon (D6) is an anti-tank vehicle, but very costly pointwise.
Yeah, primaris really need some sort of devestator type troop if they’re going to leave the shorties at home.
grouchoben wrote: It works. Unless your opponent is willimg to set up play with a 9" bubble around all scenery of any depth, foresaking all cover saves and los blocks,, then theyll get their opportunity! Played them 3 times since i learned of this strat and had plenty of opportunities with them every game. It transforms their usefulness imo, and returns them to what they do best - delivering 16CC knifey attacks wherever you need them.
I don’t know how this could work, seeing as you have to set them up within 6” of a board edge and 9” away from enemy units. The chance that there is a high enough ruin in this limited area, and that there is a suitable target within charge distance, seems very low.
You can buy grappling hooks and grab chutes,
ah, didn't know that. Seems very expensive for a pretty ineffective unit though.
Indeed, Intercessors, Aggressors, Reivers, Inceptors, and Hellblasters have mostly shooty D1 weapons (up to supercharge plasma which is D2 and the obvious krak grenades). This will not be enough if you face a tank-heavy army.
Today, one needs about 40% of anti-tank/-monster in an army. Thus, taking a full Primaris army will not be sufficient to deal with all threats.
The Repulsor with las-talon (D3), two krak-storm grenade launchers (D3), and twin lascannon (D6) is an anti-tank vehicle, but very costly pointwise.
Yeah, primaris really need some sort of devestator type troop if they’re going to leave the shorties at home.
grouchoben wrote: It works. Unless your opponent is willimg to set up play with a 9" bubble around all scenery of any depth, foresaking all cover saves and los blocks,, then theyll get their opportunity! Played them 3 times since i learned of this strat and had plenty of opportunities with them every game. It transforms their usefulness imo, and returns them to what they do best - delivering 16CC knifey attacks wherever you need them.
I don’t know how this could work, seeing as you have to set them up within 6” of a board edge and 9” away from enemy units. The chance that there is a high enough ruin in this limited area, and that there is a suitable target within charge distance, seems very low.
You can buy grappling hooks and grab chutes,
ah, didn't know that. Seems very expensive for a pretty ineffective unit though.
If you were following along with the discussion, you might have noticed that those who used them have said the exact opposite - that they are effective in this configuration
With both grav and grapnels, they become a very versatile bully unit, just as they should be.
I'm not sold on reivers. I think that anything they can kill can be dealt with much more easily with dakka. Inceptors are the obvious alternative for getting rid of enemy infantry in hard to reach places. I might be biased because I play crimson fists, so ignore the enemy's cover.
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sold on reivers. I think that anything they can kill can be dealt with much more easily with dakka. Inceptors are the obvious alternative for getting rid of enemy infantry in hard to reach places. I might be biased because I play crimson fists, so ignore the enemy's cover.
Reivers are best at hitting dug-in targets behind cover. Cover isn't exactly the greatest but it still gives a pretty significant bonus against shooting that you can't really ignore. Things like camo cloak scouts, rangers, MEQ in cover, etc are all things you don't generally want to shoot at if you can get into CC with.
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sold on reivers. I think that anything they can kill can be dealt with much more easily with dakka. Inceptors are the obvious alternative for getting rid of enemy infantry in hard to reach places. I might be biased because I play crimson fists, so ignore the enemy's cover.
Reivers are best at hitting dug-in targets behind cover. Cover isn't exactly the greatest but it still gives a pretty significant bonus against shooting that you can't really ignore. Things like camo cloak scouts, rangers, MEQ in cover, etc are all things you don't generally want to shoot at if you can get into CC with.
Sure, but as I said I play crimson fists. Those kinds of units can actually be shot down pretty easily if I've got some infantry with some AP on their guns. If anything, inceptors are kind of overkill and my intercessors can often get the job done. Scout snipers in cover get a 5+ save instead of a 2+, for example.
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sold on reivers. I think that anything they can kill can be dealt with much more easily with dakka. Inceptors are the obvious alternative for getting rid of enemy infantry in hard to reach places. I might be biased because I play crimson fists, so ignore the enemy's cover.
To Me, Reivers seem more like crowd control than a "killy" unit, meant for disrupting shooty units without fly (like tanks). Not that they are bad in CC, but with no option for power weapons, their high number of attacks just ends up being a high number of armor saves. I wish they had an option for dual heavy bolt pistols, which besides looking awesome, having an extra shot at a -1 AP would make them a better threat against armored opponents.
Mandragola wrote: I'm not sold on reivers. I think that anything they can kill can be dealt with much more easily with dakka. Inceptors are the obvious alternative for getting rid of enemy infantry in hard to reach places. I might be biased because I play crimson fists, so ignore the enemy's cover.
Reivers are best at hitting dug-in targets behind cover. Cover isn't exactly the greatest but it still gives a pretty significant bonus against shooting that you can't really ignore. Things like camo cloak scouts, rangers, MEQ in cover, etc are all things you don't generally want to shoot at if you can get into CC with.
Sure, but as I said I play crimson fists. Those kinds of units can actually be shot down pretty easily if I've got some infantry with some AP on their guns. If anything, inceptors are kind of overkill and my intercessors can often get the job done. Scout snipers in cover get a 5+ save instead of a 2+, for example.
The main thing I'm looking at for them is an infantry blender unit that might make for a good Honor the Chapter target. Problem is that they do have quite limited effectiveness. The targets you want to send them against are things like cultists, Skitarii, Guardsmen, little bugs, etc. Those things aren't always available. Sometimes, given the matchups I get involved in, the squishiest target on the field is a Tau Battlesuit Commander, Plague Marines, things like that. Plague Marines laugh at Reivers.
I have just been running most Inceptors, Hellblasters, LT, Captain in Grav armor since the beginning of 8th ed. I haven't played with the latest rules though, so anything major I miss gents?
The last time I played I was debating about the anti-tank issue. I ran three dreads in addition to the above to mixed results, going to see if predators do any better.
So I've been staring at the Space Marine codex a bit too much instead of sleeping (largely due a combination of factors, like finding out that painting large amounts of gold is tedious for me, and seeing GW's video on painting Raptor OD Green Power Armour) and spent a fair amount of time to get fairly caught up on this thread. And since I didn't see any comments on relics, I figured I'd throw some in just because. I'm only touching over the vanilla ones because I haven't taken time to look over the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch or Space Wolf options enough to consider if anything in there really works for a pure Primaris army, sorry.
Now most obviously the Armour Indomitus is most people's first "go to", especially on a Gravis Armour Captain (or basically any warlord). Definitely very solid, but not the only option, though I rank it very highly.
We'll skip the Shield Eternal since no one has storm shields in a pure Primaris list and just say that if you're taking the Primaris Ancient to give you a chance to make your opponent mad with Hellblasters, then take this relic. Take it even if you need to spend a CP to fit it into your list. Ignoring Morale is helpful for any unit, and a 3+ to get to Overcharge a second time is basically the most hilariously awesome combo you can muster.
Teeth of Terra is sadly useless due to no one having Chainswords, as is the Primarch's Wrath since no one has a boltgun (boo!).
Burning Blade is definitely to be considered if you like to be more aggressive with your HQ and throw them into melee. We have a fair amount of access to power swords, and while the damage is lower than a Gravis Captain's MC Power Sword, the extra strength and -5AP means it'll wound more constantly, and with making you suffer penalties for punching with your fist if you're not trying to see if you can perforate tanks with your fists.
The Tome of Malcador is basically not worth it unless you're running a small army with only a Librarian HQ choice for a tournament and want to squeeze in an extra power for TAC purposes, and even then it's not your best choice since the Librarian has better options available.
Salamander's Mantle may be the other go-to relic for durability, and if you don't feel like running the Indomitus Armour and play Sallies this is worth a look. T6 Gravis armour means that S3 is basically worthless shooting at you, alternatively use it on a regular Captain or Lieutenant to give them the benefits of Gravis Armour, but without losing the Wargear.
Sadly the Iron Hands don't get a working Relic for an all Primaris force, and neither do the Raven Guard (at least until we see Tech Marines and Jump Pack HQs make the Primaris conversion sometime in the future).
Mantle of the Stormseer looks incredibly useful for preventing your Librarian from being denied as easilly, and ups your odds of passing your test to cast. Sadly it doesn't reduce your chance of perils (since that happens if you roll doubles, not based on your final total) so it's not an auto-include, but if your main reason to bring a Librarian is to cast Smite and deny then this isn't a bad choice.
Sadly the Boltstorm Gauntlet isn't a Power fist (despite hitting just like one, yay technicalities) so the Fist of Vengence is also a must pass at this time. Sorry Crimson Fists.
Are you playing Ultramarines? Did you take a Captain, or upgrade him to a Chapter Master? Then you should be taking the Santic Halo. Not only does it bump you to a 3++ (the only source of it outside of the Indomitus Armour's one turn 3++), but it also gives you extra denial chances during your turn, which is great for blunting your opponent's chances of hurting you with Smite, or casting negatives to hit abilities. Basically this is one of the other auto-includes for a lot of people, and heavily worth considering, even if you're leaning more towards that 2+ armour save.
Crusader's Helm doesn't look exceptional on it's own. Sure 9" for re-rolling 1s or even all missed to-hits is good, but Chaplains locking down your Morale isn't bad, nor is the Ancient's banner pushing out to 9" (allowing you more room in buffing things without being too tightly lumped together if you're trying to support multiple units with the ability to make shots as models die). Basically, while it doesn't make your warlord's beefier, it increases unit synergy and gives you more movement to play with in how they support each other (as well as spread out to prevent deep-strikers).
The Spartean (which I keep wanting to spell/pronounce as "Spartan") actually has a home on regular Primaris Captains (no Gravis for you though), Lieutenants, Librarians, and Primaris Ancient (though you can probably get away with it on a Primaris Apothecary since the Absolver is a "bolt pistol" it feels off to do so). For all of these guys it's a straight upgrade to go from a regular one shot pistol, to a two shot one that has -1AP and does 2 Damage. The bonus of being able to potshot hidden characters (like Commissars, or IG Officers) with it is handy as well.
So definitely some decent options and things worth considering sprinkling into your army, and at least half of them are actually viable. A couple aren't, and of course, for a Primaris pure player, the others are just left out due to missing wargear options (for now at least).
Another aspect for the pure Primaris player to consider is definitely Warlord Traits. A lot of options between the core book and the vanilla codex but not as many to really consider honestly.
To be upfront, the core rulebook Warlord Traits are basically worthless to us. Everything they give us we do better. Just ignore these.
Angel of Death: Only worth considering if you're a very aggressive player who hits deep into the enemy and can force those Battleshock tests. Basically ignore if you regularly play against armies that ignore morale to some extent or another though.
The Imperium's Sword: Don't really take if you're playing Black Templars because all it gives you is +1 attack, making you lose out on half the benefit. Otherwise it's a good choice for more aggressive players who like to see their warlord punch people in the face. Not a bad combo with the Burning Blade since it means more quality attacks in melee though.
Iron Resolve: Congrats, you're now an Iron Hands Warlord! Oh, and you got +1 wound too. Not bad, not exceptional. Probably worth putting on a Gravis Captain with a Salamander's Cloak if you feel like mocking your opponent with your now even harder to get rid of Warlord.
Storm of Fire: I honestly see a couple of good places to take this. First is with an HQ who is buffing Aggressors (especially with Raven Guard using SFTS to bring them in right next to something you want to make turn into a fine red mist), or with Hellblasters. Mostly because -1 for Aggressors is very helpful while -5 makes Hellblasters even scarier for stuff with decent armour saves. Basically take this on a Warlord who is buffing something shooty for maximum effect. Also hilarious to use it to buff a Repulsor since the volume of fire could easily mean getting 6s. I want to say this should stack with the Black Templar's Crusader Helm, and if so it's basically a strong shooting army choice. And no, the irony of Black Templars having strong gunline armies isn't lost on me. Imperial Fists may want to consider pairing this with Bolter Drill to try and stack additional shots (mainly from Aggressors who haven't moved for maximum effect), and the greater chance at boosting AP values.
Rites of War: Only consider if you run max sized units and often face armies that force your morale down (Night Lords, certain Eldar builds, ect) to force casualties through Battleshock. Otherwise we have better options.
Champion of Humanity: One of the other aggressive player choices. Sadly character hunting is not a Primaris strong suit, and this is best left off to the side for now.
Ultramarine's Adept of the Codex: Worth considering if you run Guilliman, or if you just like using CP a lot (likely for re-rolls since that's the most common usage). More situational for an all Primaris army than a regular Marine army though.
White Scar's Deadly Hunter: Without Primaris Bikes or Character Jump Packs we're not going to see this outside of the most aggressive armies. If you're regularly throwing your HQ into melee every single turn, then it's probably worth a try, but until we see bikes or at least a jump pack option this isn't going to be a very strong option for now.
Imperial Fists' Architect of War: Regularly fighting other Primaris armies? Or regularly getting pinged with -1 AP values? Basically only worth taking based on your local meta. For a more gunline based army like Imperial Fists, Storm of Fire is a stronger choice unless you need to make your warlord better at staying alive.
Crimson Fists' Tenacious Opponent: Do you like to play aggressively with your HQ and throw him into melee a lot? Really like stabbing people with burning swords? Basically, unless you're fighting Custodes armies on the regular, this will likely come into play more often. Especially if hordes are more common in your meta.
Black Templars' Oathkeeper: Another option to boost the Black Templar gunline as it allows your HQ to counter charge more easily when your shooty units get engaged in combat during the game. No, I don't know why GW gave the Templars all the shooting support rules either.
Salamanders' Anvil of Strength: Pair with a burning blade for an S8 warlord. Alternatively, hit at S10 with a Gravis Captain's fist. Either is pretty good if you need some extra punch in melee. Definitely promotes a more aggressive HQ option, or at least one who can help break tanks since we don't have a lot of ways to do it. Pairing with the Salamander's cloak and a burning blade with a Gravis Captain basically lets you make a Primarch Vulkan Hestan (minus his special rules, but you get what I'm going at here I think).
Raven Guard's Silent Stalker: Only use if you throw your Warlord into melee A. LOT. And even then, why aren't you just using Reivers to negate Overwatch, or charging after another unit has engaged, or charging from outside of Line of Sight (you only need to see to shoot, not charge after all)? Basically this is not a strong contender for a Primaris army if only for the lack of solid ways to throw an HQ into melee without some kind of support. Strike from the Shadows definitely makes it possible, but that just seems like a poor way to get your HQ into melee on it's own. Basically if your Warlord is getting into combat by himself as part of an Alpha Strike tactic you've done something horribly wrong and this won't help you enough anyways. Pass for something like the Imperium's Sword if you want an Alpha Striking HQ choice as re-rolls to charge are definitely more important if you want to Alpha Strike and tie up parts of your opponent's army early in the game. Better on a model like Shrike who has a jump pack to make crossing larger distances to set up for a charge easier and can rely instead on using this to lead the charge and protect other supporting units instead. On Primaris though the HQs lack the speed needed to make this work as effectively and basically it just falls short in an all Primaris list.
Iron Hands' Merciless Logic: Bonus attacks are never innately bad, and this is a lot better than wasting half of Iron Resolve, but this is a fairly weak option to consider. I presume it works for shooting attacks, and with a model that hits on 2s it can get a fair number of 6s over the course of a game, especially when paired with a Captain who allows you to re-roll those ones to hit. The lack of synergy with other parts of your army make this rank lower than Storm of Fire for me though.
ClockworkZion wrote: Sadly the Boltstorm Gauntlet isn't a Power fist (despite hitting just like one, yay technicalities) so the Fist of Vengence is also a must pass at this time. Sorry Crimson Fists.
This is actually incorrect. Since the release of the store birthday Primaris Captain we've been able to swap out a captain's equipment for a plasma pistol and power fist. This power fist can then be replaced with the fist of vengeance. The most recent FAQ adds the option to the codex. I've modeled mine waving an ork's head around - obviously.
The option to take this relic is arguably the main reason to play Crimson Fists at all. The normal Primaris Captain's equipment options are very lacklustre, but being able to take a fist with no penalty to hit and a fixed 3 damage changes that, a lot. For best results have your librarian cast might of heroes on the guy, and give him the warlord trait with +1A on the charge and rerolls of charge distances.
ClockworkZion wrote: Sadly the Boltstorm Gauntlet isn't a Power fist (despite hitting just like one, yay technicalities) so the Fist of Vengence is also a must pass at this time. Sorry Crimson Fists.
This is actually incorrect. Since the release of the store birthday Primaris Captain we've been able to swap out a captain's equipment for a plasma pistol and power fist. This power fist can then be replaced with the fist of vengeance. The most recent FAQ adds the option to the codex. I've modeled mine waving an ork's head around - obviously.
The option to take this relic is arguably the main reason to play Crimson Fists at all. The normal Primaris Captain's equipment options are very lacklustre, but being able to take a fist with no penalty to hit and a fixed 3 damage changes that, a lot. For best results have your librarian cast might of heroes on the guy, and give him the warlord trait with +1A on the charge and rerolls of charge distances.
Good summary otherwise.
Hm, I'll need to get that update since all I've got is the digital copies of the codex and chapter approved at the moment to work off of. Yeah, that makes it a LOT better for Crimson Fists and worth taking (as well as that model is worth taking).
I honestly haven't been paying a lot of attention to Marines until very recently so I missed that release (and the only one I've seen at my FLGS was the Veteran Sergent Primaris Model).
ClockworkZion wrote: Sadly the Boltstorm Gauntlet isn't a Power fist (despite hitting just like one, yay technicalities) so the Fist of Vengence is also a must pass at this time. Sorry Crimson Fists.
This is actually incorrect. Since the release of the store birthday Primaris Captain we've been able to swap out a captain's equipment for a plasma pistol and power fist. This power fist can then be replaced with the fist of vengeance. The most recent FAQ adds the option to the codex. I've modeled mine waving an ork's head around - obviously.
The option to take this relic is arguably the main reason to play Crimson Fists at all. The normal Primaris Captain's equipment options are very lacklustre, but being able to take a fist with no penalty to hit and a fixed 3 damage changes that, a lot. For best results have your librarian cast might of heroes on the guy, and give him the warlord trait with +1A on the charge and rerolls of charge distances.
Good summary otherwise.
Hm, I'll need to get that update since all I've got is the digital copies of the codex and chapter approved at the moment to work off of. Yeah, that makes it a LOT better for Crimson Fists and worth taking (as well as that model is worth taking).
I honestly haven't been paying a lot of attention to Marines until very recently so I missed that release (and the only one I've seen at my FLGS was the Veteran Sergent Primaris Model).
Note also that some points values changed in chapter approved. If you've got the enhanced edition codex then those values will have updated automatically. I'm not sure if the Epub did the same. My enhanced edition book doesn't seem to have updated yet with the captain's new wargear options (or those for Intercessor sergeants), but they are in the dark angel and blood angel books.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can yu explain how can their charge roll can be less than 9'', i don't get it.
Let's say your opponent has ruins near a board edge. He deploys a unit on the third floor. You can then come in from reserves on the ground level off the board edge and be 9" inches away. However, when you move, you will disregard the height in measuring distances. So the enemy unit could be 9" away, but only 3" or 4" away when you disregard height in the calculation and only measure horizontally to determine charge range.
Sorry to revisit this - do you are measuring vertical distance in the 9" away? e.g. a unit is 6" up in a building. Reivers can deploy 3" from buildings base?
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can yu explain how can their charge roll can be less than 9'', i don't get it.
Let's say your opponent has ruins near a board edge. He deploys a unit on the third floor. You can then come in from reserves on the ground level off the board edge and be 9" inches away. However, when you move, you will disregard the height in measuring distances. So the enemy unit could be 9" away, but only 3" or 4" away when you disregard height in the calculation and only measure horizontally to determine charge range.
Sorry to revisit this - do you are measuring vertical distance in the 9" away? e.g. a unit is 6" up in a building. Reivers can deploy 3" from buildings base?
You measure the distance between the models directly in a straight line, so if the enemy was 6" up you'd have to be more than 3" away horisontally (though I'm not going to bother doing the Pythagoras!).
But then when you come to charge you only measure the horisontal distance and ignore the vertical distance entirely. In theory, you can get some very short charge distances. In reality, it's pretty easy for your opponent to prevent by just putting someone else on the ground floor.
grouchoben wrote: Reivers need grapples and knives, they dont really work without them. Grapples allow you to deepstrike onto cover at 9", but charge at a lot less than 9, as you ignore height when measuring movement. Or DS onto groundlevel and assault units bunkered up in buildings for the same effect... My Reivers don't have to make more than 6" tops: Id rather keep them in reserve than roll 9+.
Can yu explain how can their charge roll can be less than 9'', i don't get it.
Let's say your opponent has ruins near a board edge. He deploys a unit on the third floor. You can then come in from reserves on the ground level off the board edge and be 9" inches away. However, when you move, you will disregard the height in measuring distances. So the enemy unit could be 9" away, but only 3" or 4" away when you disregard height in the calculation and only measure horizontally to determine charge range.
Sorry to revisit this - do you are measuring vertical distance in the 9" away? e.g. a unit is 6" up in a building. Reivers can deploy 3" from buildings base?
In your example of the 6" tall building, you'd deploy 9" away on a diagonal. So using maths (a^2+b^2=c^2, or in this case we use c^2-b^2=a^2 to work out the horizontal distance you'd need to be away to get the diagonal distance right), we can find that your charge distance would be 6.7" away, or a 6" charge (because of the free inch to complete charges you don't need to roll a 7 or better, just a 6 or better on 2d6 which gives you a 72.22% chance of making a charge, verses the 27.77% chance of making a 9" charge. Definitely a major improvement for the unit, even without re-rolls).
Spider guy, Spider guy, does whatever a spider guy does!
Seriously though, it definitely makes them actually useful. Dropping them onto a building with grav chutes and then grappel launching yourself into combat is basically the best way to use them.
So, it seems like the FAQ got updated today, and now I'm confused. It reads: ‘The Intercessor Sergeant may either replace their bolt rifle with a power sword, or take a power sword in addition to their other weapons."
So can they have both the bolt rifle AND the power sword, or must they replace it? Cause if they can't have both, I'll have to re-model my sergeants, which would be a pain in the .
I just used the link that was posted earlier in this thread. It was just updated today, so they probably haven't updated the community site yet.
But okay, if you can still take them all, why would you ever replace a bolt rifle with a power sword? A bolt rifle costs all of 0 points, so why not take it?
So I figured I'd do a quick rundown of the Primaris specific changes since that's mostly what we care about:
Page 141 – Primaris Captain, Wargear Options
Change the second bullet point to read:
‘This model may take a power sword, or replace its master-crafted auto bolt rifle and bolt pistol with a power fist and a plasma pistol.’
We knew about this one and it mostly benefits Crimson Fits since the Gravis Captain already had a power mitt of his own. That said, if you have the cool model then this will let you play him so it's not bad.
Page 148 – Intercessor Squad, Wargear Options
Change the third bullet point to read:
‘The Intercessor Sergeant may either replace their bolt rifle with a power sword, or take a power sword in addition to their other weapons.’
Not sure what this changed since I'm not sitting at home in front of my digital copy (seriously need to put that on my laptop too or just get the paper copy for when I'm not home), but I'm not sure why you'd swap his rifle for the sword. Basically, other than points for the most streamlined lists, this does nothing to really help your Sergeant.
Page 166 – Redemptor Dreadnought
Change the description to read:
‘A Redemptor Dreadnought is a single model equipped with a heavy onslaught gatling cannon, heavy flamer, two fragstorm grenade launchers and a Redemptor fist.’
Page 166 – Redemptor Dreadnought, Wargear Options
Add a new bullet point as follows:
‘This model may take an Icarus rocket pod.’
Looks like some minor ommission corrections I think, but someone correct me if I'm wrong since I don't have a codex happy for exact loadout options.
Page 196 – Born in the Saddle
Add the following sentence:
‘In addition, that unit does not suffer the penalty to hit rolls for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.’
White Scar Primaris just gained a new lease on life. Load up on Assault Weapons and run your twin hearts out. Still doesn't make us -fast- but it does at least give the army some more mobility, especially when compared to other foot lists.
Page 197 – Bolter Drill
Change the first two sentences to read:
‘Use this Stratagem just before an Imperial Fists Infantry unit attacks in the Shooting phase. Until the end of the phase, each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model from that unit firing a bolt weapon, that model can immediately make another hit roll using the same weapon at the same target (these bonus attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks).’
I feel like this is just a slight rewording to try and make the intent of how it works clearer. So basically no changed.
Page 197 – Flamecraft
Change the first two sentences to read:
‘Use this Stratagem just before a Salamanders unit attacks in the Shooting phase. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the wound rolls made for all of that unit’s flame weapons.’
More cleaning up intent, and likely shutting down using this on Overwatch if it didn't have that restriction before.
Page 202 – Librarius Discipline, Might of Heroes
Change the third sentence to read:
‘Until the start of your next Psychic phase, add 1 to that model’s Strength, Toughness and Attacks characteristics (if an attack hits a unit that has more than one Toughness characteristic, use the unit’s lowest Toughness characteristic when making the resultant wound roll).’
More clarification, though I'm not sure if we have any multiple toughness units left in the game since GW has pretty heavily split things up.
Q: Can successor Chapters use the Warlord Traits of their
founding Chapter?
A: No.
I find this, very, very silly. We have literally thousands of chapters and yet only founding chapters seem to be able to operate specific ways and have access to specific relics (are they really telling me the Raptors don't a nice Jump Pack of their own, or that an Ultramarines successor wouldn't be just as tactically competent as their parent chapter?). I mean I get this is to cut down on abuse of using armies to be a flavor of the month thing, but it still kicks less power-creep chasing players in the teeth a bit.
Yeah, the power sword one confuses me from a language standpoint, but the warlord trait change confuses me from a rule-writing standpoint.
It's like they are saying "Okay, you can make a successor chapter like always, but now you'll give up tactical benefits if you want to have your own name and color scheme."
I suspect the successor tactic one is to stop Black Templar players from using Imp Fist. stuff. And other later founding chapters that have been fleshed out with their own rules/stuff.
The sword bit is probably so stock models can be fielded WYSWYG with no converting. Not sure if there is one with that particular config though.
I've been rolling around an aggressive Raptors themed army plan. Since the Chapter Master doesn't mesh with Primaris I'm not really looking to mesh him up into a list for the sake of just trying to mesh him into a list since his only buff is slightly faster movement to the army and the CM reroll.
Basically I'm looking at SFTS both a Gravis Captain and Bolter Aggressors, dropping in Reivers and Inceptors normally during Turn 1, and supporting the army with a Repulsor paired with a Librarian and a squad of Hellblasters and Inceptors for support and anti-armour.
Though, I am considering sprinkling in Scouts depending how the list works on its own. While they don't have the Primaris rule, they do provide some some cheap screeners (and can be run with Sniper Rifles if you need to plink characters) and basically give the army some options it doesn't have baked in since there doesn't seem to be a fluff (or even rules) difference between Primaris Scouts and regular Scouts right now.
EDIT: I'm starting my army with the Know No Fear box plus a Combat Squad box of Reivers. It's not a lot, but it's a solid core and a fair number of points for the RF versions. I want to like the heavy bolter choice since it would fit the Raptor's theme of being good shots, but honestly it doesn't do enough to make me interested in it. Basically I'm coming down to either Assault or RF versions of the Hellblasters and Intercessors as being the best choice, but I haven't decided if kiting with Assault weapons is really better for the army than pushing in an shooting followed by charging to try and clean up targets I've shot up.
ClockworkZion wrote: White Scar Primaris just gained a new lease on life. Load up on Assault Weapons and run your twin hearts out. Still doesn't make us -fast- but it does at least give the army some more mobility, especially when compared to other foot lists.
ClockworkZion wrote: White Scar Primaris just gained a new lease on life. Load up on Assault Weapons and run your twin hearts out. Still doesn't make us -fast- but it does at least give the army some more mobility, especially when compared to other foot lists.
It only works on bikes...
Well that sucks the fun out of it. Also I don't look at White Scars often enough to know their rules clearly. I apparently need to fix that.
I don't see anything rules related that says you can't run any successor army you create as a "counts as X" army. Specifically calling your army a successor army essentially only gives flaws. The only time it's a successor chapter rules-wise is if you replace the faction keyword with your successor chapter. Is there any reason not to just run it as a "counts as" army? If you can have orange Ultramarines, why not anything else?
Here’s a list I’ve been working on. I think it has reasonably good amounts of dakka and AT. I’m not sure what to do about dark reapers, but I don’t think anyone else is so... ho hum. Maybe they’ll be nerfed in the March FAQs in time for the tournaments in May I’m planning on bringing these to. Or maybe my Tau will have their codex by then and be good.
Battalion (3CPs)
Captain with Fist of Vengeance and Plasma Pistol 106
Librarian with Null zone and Might of Heroes 101
Intercessors 91
Intercessors 91
Intercessors 91
5 dakka aggressors 185
3 dakka Inceptors 135
5 Rapid Fire Hellblasters 165
Las repulsor 336
Las repulsor 336
Fire Raptor 362
There’s a little bit of flexibility in how I deploy. I’ll usually have the aggressors in one repulsor and the hellblasters and characters in another. I can potentially have a couple of Intercessors squads in one though if I want the aggressors on the field - which I might against serious hordes. Most likely I’d want to keep them protected though, even then.
I’ve found repulsors to be good. The -2 to charge distances makes it much harder for people to get at them from deep strike, and they tend to survive anyway. They bring a lot of guns too. The fire raptor’s in there because it’s awesome. I’ll be converting mine to have Primaris crew, like I’ve done with my Stormraven and Xiphon. So it’s kind of not a full Primaris army, but it will look like it is.
I’m not 100% sure the inceptors are a good idea, but I need something that can drop in to threaten objectives and the units like devastators and dark reapers that tend to be found sat on them. Carbine reivers might be a possible alternative but their firepower is so much less.
I’d also consider putting some reivers in a repulsor with my characters instead of the aggressors, and swapping the inceptors out for 5 more hellblasters. Overall I don’t think that’s a great idea.
I'd honestly keep the Inceptors. They are one of the best Primaris units out there right now. They bring a lot of firepower to the table for the unit size, and with the DS capabilities to put them where you need them.
I like the idea of Aggressors but I find them to be a little wonky. Their rules are designed that you will only ever benefit from one of their two rules a turn. You either get the double shot or you get the advance + fire without penalty. They require a delivery system and ultimately don't really contribute that much other than throwing a bunch of regular bolter shots at something. They can math someone to death, but I think Inceptors cover the same job at a better efficiency. The best use I've seen from Aggressors is to use them as Raven Guard and deploy them next to enemies using the stratagem so you can double shot turn one, but this also requires you to go first which is not reliable at all.
You may want to look at dropping the Aggressors and adding another unit of Inceptors and maybe a few more Hellblasters. You can then put the Hellblasters in a Repulsor and another squad or two of Intercessors in the other for protection. You can look at Reivers as well, but I think outside of a dedicated CC style army like Blood Angels, they are lacking a bit of bite. Again, they deal with smaller lighter infantry units in CC but Primaris don't really struggle that much with anti-infantry as it is.
You could also look into squeezing in a Lieutenant. He increases the efficiency of your units, especially the Hellblasters. Being able to reroll 1's to hit and to wound is fantastic.
I’ve also found aggressors difficult to use. Putting them in the repulsor is supposed to help with finding them out of position, which happens quite a lot. In the right situation these guys have absurd firepower, but getting them there without first getting them shot can be difficult. When they do get to fire, especially when they double fire, all sorts of things die.
So I don’t think I’ll drop them, but I do see where you’re coming from. And yeah I could stick some intercessors, maybe with a sword, in a repulsor. The annoying thing about that, and about the reivers most of all, is that it makes me wish I played blood angels instead of crimson fists. BA reivers look like they might be almost viable. You could even arguably justify using the awesome Primaris Chaplain model with them, which never seems sensible with vanilla Primaris.
It would be nice to have a lieutenant, ideally as part of something like a vanguard or spearhead detachment for the extra cp. The only way to do that would be to drop the inceptors and one of my big vehicles though. I’m not sure that would be an improvement overall. While of course the lieutenant’s reroll aura is nice, I can instead just spend the points on some other guns. Overall it works out roughly the same I think.
Dreadnoughts would be a good way of getting some more elite or heavy support units to fill out detachments. I had a look at the index weapon options and I quite like the idea of an elite one with two auto cannons and two heavy bolters. Comes in at a non-crazy 120 points. It would be a good unit to pick off scoring units and maybe finish off damaged vehicles occasionally. Overall I think the Inceptors are better though, unless there are CPs on offer.
I don’t think I’ve necessarily got a perfect list yet, but it’s getting there I think.
I really like Aggressors. While their rules are a little wonky, I think what they do really well is area denial and distract. If you have a unit of Aggressors watching over an objective, most players won't want to just march in front of them, so they'll try and kill them before they go, or stay back to kill more urgent threats. Either way, you've held a mid field objective for longer. They're rather cheap as well for the amount of firepower they bring, and if all else fails, their T5 means they have to put either a lot of shots into them (especially a team of 5) or dedicate a more powerful unit or two into them, which is taking heat away from your Dreadnaughts or Repulsors.
They're also pretty meaty in melee, especially for BAngels
Actually, I was about to bring up Scouts this morning as well. I've flipped through everything I can about Primaris and basically nothing says they don't follow the same codex rules about having scout companies, nor do they have anything about not following the same timeline from being chosen to receive implants to eventually being deployed on the battlefield as a full Marine.
So as far as I'm concerned, Scouts (and their transport) are a legitimate choice for Primaris only armies/chapters at least until GW says otherwise and gives us Primaris Scouts or something.
Actually my understanding is that Primaris marines get spat out fully formed. Most of them have been in stasis for 10k years.
I read a book in which old Imperial Fists are grumbling because the new primaris guys have never been scouts - but impressed that some of them have met Rogal Dorn. Scouts weren’t a thing in the heresy era though.
Anyway I know about scouts and I prefer intercessors. I’d consider a unit of them at most. Intercessors actually do stuff.
Mandragola wrote: Actually my understanding is that Primaris marines get spat out fully formed. Most of them have been in stasis for 10k years.
I read a book in which old Imperial Fists are grumbling because the new primaris guys have never been scouts - but impressed that some of them have met Rogal Dorn. Scouts weren’t a thing in the heresy era though.
Anyway I know about scouts and I prefer intercessors. I’d consider a unit of them at most. Intercessors actually do stuff.
While the first Primaris were established as fully formed Marines, I disagree about all of the Primaris never being scouts. It's been over a hundred years since the Primaris were first established in the galaxy and Primaris only chapters need new recruits as they deal with casualties, and the established chapters could take scouts they have and give them the implants as part of their process to turn them into Primaris with little extra effort.
Basically at this point I'd say scouts, unless GW says otherwise, are a full part of a Primaris force.
lol I thought this was a tactics thread. Without scouts you cede all of no man's land to deep strikers. They're the best counter to alpha legion, tyranids, blood Angels, demons, Orks, etc.
axisofentropy wrote: lol I thought this was a tactics thread. Without scouts you cede all of no man's land to deep strikers. They're the best counter to alpha legion, tyranids, blood Angels, demons, Orks, etc.
It’s a tactics thread about primaris marines. It’s legitimate to ask what can be used in the army.
So far I’ve managed totally fine without scouts. They are good at that job, but nothing else really. As I said, I find my repulsors make a really good defence against anyone who wants to deep strike and charge. Meanwhile I can use my intercessors to make sure there’s nowhere for the enemy to drop in my deployment zone.
I've wondered why reivers didn't get scout deploy, they have stealth assisting armor, they have been trained in infiltration, and it would be thematic for them. I guess they left holes in primaris abilities to make certain units better for certain chapters. Like DA Hellblasters are top of the heap because of WFTDA, and raven guard reivers can use strike from the shadows for easy round 1 charges.
Grimgold wrote: I've wondered why reivers didn't get scout deploy, they have stealth assisting armor, they have been trained in infiltration, and it would be thematic for them. I guess they left holes in primaris abilities to make certain units better for certain chapters. Like DA Hellblasters are top of the heap because of WFTDA, and raven guard reivers can use strike from the shadows for easy round 1 charges.
They did it probably so they dont step on any toes of stuff like scouts.
Intersetors are like normal marines but are diffrent in that they have no specials options and they build more like 30k units
Hellblasters are pretty unique as a unit full of one type of special weapons (i guess kinda like sternguard but not really)
Reivers are kinda inbetween scouts and assault marines. they can buy some really cool movement abilities.
interceptors are like assault marines but focused on shooting only
and Aggressors are like centurions but focused on light weapons rather than being able to take specific heavy weapons like the grav or drill.
non of the primarus stuff are 1 to 1 in old marines.
The way I look at it is that regular Marines are basically just Marines, but the Primaris are more like tougher, better armed Eldar. Every unit is a specialist and has to be employed effectively to get the most impact.
What’s the best load out for Redemptor dreads? Not real keen on magnetize get and was thinking of going heavy gatling and small gatling as well as storm bolters to stay on the cheap.
I meant to add that I will most likely play Ultramarines as my wife bought me Roboute Gilliman for Christmas.
I like the heavy plasma incinerator, but then I'm dark angels so I might be biased. With OC and weapons from the dark ages. it's a little bit more effective than twin linked lascannons, and primaris marines are short on anti-vehicle weapons.
Grimgold wrote: I like the heavy plasma incinerator, but then I'm dark angels so I might be biased. With OC and weapons from the dark ages. it's a little bit more effective than twin linked lascannons, and primaris marines are short on anti-vehicle weapons.
I suppose I can see the plasma incinerator working ok for dark angels. If it stands still it shouldn’t blow itself up.
Trouble is, even using the stratagem you’re looking at around the firepower of a quad las predator. I guess that’s just from the main gun, not counting its other Gatling cannon, storm bolters and Icarus. It’s not too bad, I suppose.
Personally I think I’d want to take a decent-sized unit of hellblasters to use the stratagem on. It would be cool to get 10 or even 20 shots boosted to 3 damage each. Meanwhile a dread with Gatling gun can move around without worrying about burning its own arm off when it shoots.
You don't want all of your eggs in one basket, if hellblasters are your only anti-vehicle, then it's real easy to tie them up and make it so you can't take on vehicles. By bringing redundancy you make your opponents job harder, and it's not like the other weapons on a redemptor are bad at hordes, being 2 storm bolters and the equivalent of two heavy bolters.
My concern is that if you are short on vehicle style targets the redemptor will get focused early, which is why I'm thinking about grabbing the easy to build redemptor for a second vehicle on the the battle field.
Is the loadout on the Easy to build Redemptor Dreadnought any good? Its at a pretty hefty discount when compared to the normal kit. I'm not that concerned about wysiwyg, but it would be nice to know how good it is when its being enforced.
The real problem with Redemptors is it's one of two vehicles a primaris only army has access to. Thus they tend to get shot off the board because they are the only worthwhile target for heavy weapons. So against a lot of opponents they won't even make it off of the starting blocks. One of the unspoken rules of 8th ed is bring enough heavy targets to keep heavy weapons busy for a few turns or don't bring them at all.
Grimgold wrote: The real problem with Redemptors is it's one of two vehicles a primaris only army has access to. Thus they tend to get shot off the board because they are the only worthwhile target for heavy weapons. So against a lot of opponents they won't even make it off of the starting blocks. One of the unspoken rules of 8th ed is bring enough heavy targets to keep heavy weapons busy for a few turns or don't bring them at all.
Alternatively try and use more LOS Blocking terrain
they work out pretty well in a good city fight board.
Redemptors seem not quite right to me. The plasma gun seems a non-starter unless you like blowing up. The gat is good. But it wants to move so will very often have -1 to hit, even before it takes damage and degrades.
I think there’s a case for using one if you’ve got a couple of repulsors too. Those can carry your lascannons and it can do anti-horde, and also a bit of protection against melee.
I’d go for the proper kit. It’s got the right guns and is really fun to build - if you have the patience! The thing is incredibly poseable.
So I know this thread has languished for a bit but I am curious if people's opinions on what Chapters to use for an all Primaris army have changed.
Here's my thoughts on the options:
Ultramarines: Guilliman plus an ok chapter tactic for shooty Primaris
Ravenguard: SftS stratagem and probably the best Chapter Tactic
(I don't have anything much to say on the other Vanilla Chapters)
Blood Angels: Chapter Tactic is good for Reivers and potentially any unit that gets into combat. A stratagem lets you redeploy Inceptors mid-game.
Dark Angels: WFTDA is amazing on Hellblasters. The Chapter Tactic is underestimated imo, if you get to stand still the reroll 1s is great for Agressors and Hellblasters (saving need for captains) and the max 1 death to morale is not bad on expensive Primaris. Azreal if you break from all Primaris.
Space Wolves: True Grit seems good for Intercessors, basically if you survive being charged you can fight twice (with better AP) for 1CP. The Outflank stratagem is good for Agressors and Hellblasters though not as good as SftS. Codex to come could help more.
Anyone have any thoughts to add or input on the above? So far I feel like 90% of the Stratagems in the codexes don't work for Primaris which makes the Vanilla book a bit unattractive.
I think that's a decent summary. It'll be interesting to see what we get with the Deathwatch and SW codexes. Deathwatch sounds like it'll have some interesting new options.
I actually think the difference between different CTs isn't as huge as all that. While it's true that none of the vanilla chapters really stands out, at the same time they aren't awful, and many of them have good stuff that you can make work.
For example I run crimson fists, and my primaris captain with the fist of vengeance is a really great beatstick for his price. With might of heroes on, and often hitting targets affected by null zone, he can do huge damage. Ignoring cover isn't a huge issue but it does always make a difference, especially against small scoring units that are left to hold objectives.
Another example is iron hands. They have quite a decent chance of saving a wound from a 2 damage weapon, which significantly improves their durability.
A downside for marines is that vehicles (other than dreads) don't get CTs. But this also means CTs matter slightly less. I field a couple of repulsors for example, so that's a big chunk of my army where my CTs are irrelevant anyway.
So the point is that you can make an ok primaris army using pretty much any CTs. There are some things that are obviously good, like say a big unit of DA plasma inceptors, but often there are other chapters that ca ndo something equally good.
Point for point, bolter aggressors and bolter inceptors are pretty similar. aggressors get more shots, inceptors at higher strength. what aggressors don't get, is plasma.
The aggressor rules seem counter intuitive, but the option of a 8.5 inch move on average or double shots gives them a lot of flexibility. Inceptors obviously have the freedom of deployment without spending a CP on SftS, but even without ravenguard, aggressors have a fairly decent threat range with the advance and shoot move.
What i've been finding when using pure primaris is that repulsors and redemptors die quickly because they are the only tanks available, so i've ditched them altogether. This means i'm having to rely on plasma for anti tank. fortunately, primaris can pack a LOT of plasma. SftS is key for what i'm running, despite how useful the ultras strat would be:
HEAVY SUPPORT
Hellblasters - 5
Hellblasters - 5
Hellblasters - 5
so that's 12 CP. 6 of which gets spent on the hellblasters, captain and aggressors being deployed into midfield into the safe areas created by scouts.
Turn 1, clear chaff with aggressors, scouts and intercessors. Start hitting hard targets with hellblasters. Use the inceptors as drop and delete units. if i can leash them to the captain I will, but if they can get a bead on something worth more than their points, i'll happily sacrifice them to get the job done.
This is an opportune discussion because I'm currently on the horns of a dilemma as to which Chapter to go for. I'm planning an army with a solid core of intercessors with character support for board control, and then a mix of bolter and plasma inceptors dropping with a JP captain for punch.
I have narrowed it down to:
* Blood angels: Better toys; Intercessors can mix it in CC; I'd actually forgotten about the redeploy stratagem until Malkyr mentioned it, though their CTs don't really benefit Inceptors otherwise. Downside - Sanguinomancy (or whatever TH it's called) doesn't get Null Zone, even if it is better otherwise.
* Iron hands (Red Talons): FNP is always good; somewhat mitigates the overcharged plasma vulnerability that intercessors suffer from.
* Imperial fists: Yellow looks great on the tabletop. As Mandragola says, ignoring cover is almost always useful, if not amazing. Bolter drill is pretty weaksauce, though.
(Dark Angels could be another legit choice but I don't like them for lore reasons)
Ericthegreen wrote: Point for point, bolter aggressors and bolter inceptors are pretty similar. aggressors get more shots, inceptors at higher strength. what aggressors don't get, is plasma.
The aggressor rules seem counter intuitive, but the option of a 8.5 inch move on average or double shots gives them a lot of flexibility. Inceptors obviously have the freedom of deployment without spending a CP on SftS, but even without ravenguard, aggressors have a fairly decent threat range with the advance and shoot move.
What i've been finding when using pure primaris is that repulsors and redemptors die quickly because they are the only tanks available, so i've ditched them altogether. This means i'm having to rely on plasma for anti tank. fortunately, primaris can pack a LOT of plasma. SftS is key for what i'm running, despite how useful the ultras strat would be:
HEAVY SUPPORT
Hellblasters - 5
Hellblasters - 5
Hellblasters - 5
so that's 12 CP. 6 of which gets spent on the hellblasters, captain and aggressors being deployed into midfield into the safe areas created by scouts.
Turn 1, clear chaff with aggressors, scouts and intercessors. Start hitting hard targets with hellblasters. Use the inceptors as drop and delete units. if i can leash them to the captain I will, but if they can get a bead on something worth more than their points, i'll happily sacrifice them to get the job done.
Really interesting to see a brigade working for Primaris. That's definitely a good way to use them I think. Clearly, you've got to make some sacrifices to get there, so you don't have a lot of points to spare on luxuries, but overall it looks a good list.
I'd consider trying to get a librarian in there if possible, say by switching one of the plasma inceptor squads for bolters. But I'm not sure that would be an improvement overall. I'm actually thinking of dropping my own librarian for a lieutenant, as rerolling 1s to wound is such a big bonus - especially since my two repulsors and a couple of hellblaster squads are likely to be affected.
Well it's not really a "brigade working for Primaris" since it has Scouts to fill out those Troops slots. Still that's a lot of bodies with most of them being Primaris which I like.
I'd consider trying to get a librarian in there if possible, say by switching one of the plasma inceptor squads for bolters. But I'm not sure that would be an improvement overall. I'm actually thinking of dropping my own librarian for a lieutenant, as rerolling 1s to wound is such a big bonus - especially since my two repulsors and a couple of hellblaster squads are likely to be affected.
I would love to have a librarian in there. The initial variations of the list had bolter inceptors, gravis captain, librarian and 3 more aggressors. However, without th plasma, it just lacks the punch. I've chosen to sacrifice some of the quantity to up the quality, but it still have a fair chunk of bolter fire in there. the inceptors can always chose not to overcharge.
Mymearan wrote:Well it's not really a "brigade working for Primaris" since it has Scouts to fill out those Troops slots. Still that's a lot of bodies with most of them being Primaris which I like.
The risk of crippling alpha strike is so prevalent in 8th edition, I don't see how you can't have scouts in a marine army. if i'm going to make any sacrifice on "pure" primaris, i'd rather it be scouts than anything else.
The biggest boon to the brigade is being able to have so much SftS giving me strong board control options and early rapid fire from the hellblasters, without crippling my ability to react in game due to no CP.
Yeah my answer to that issue has been to make some "Primaris" scouts. I used reiver bodies, scraping away the armour from their legs above the boot and their arms, and then using GS to make unarmoured arms and legs. They have shotguns made from intercessor bolt guns merged with scout shotguns. I made them backpacks from GS and spare gubbins from the scout biker sprue - which I had loads of after some conversions I did years ago.
I don't have any good pics unfortunately, but they've come out quite well. I actually need to finish painting them. I got them to 3 colours for an event and they haven't been back to the painting table since.
Mandragola wrote: Redemptors seem not quite right to me. The plasma gun seems a non-starter unless you like blowing up. The gat is good. But it wants to move so will very often have -1 to hit, even before it takes damage and degrades.
I think there’s a case for using one if you’ve got a couple of repulsors too. Those can carry your lascannons and it can do anti-horde, and also a bit of protection against melee.
I’d go for the proper kit. It’s got the right guns and is really fun to build - if you have the patience! The thing is incredibly poseable.
The redemptor should be a candidate for a 4++ save standard at no additional point cost. Plus maybe some special rule to keep it shooting on the move or a bonus to shooting if it stays still. At it's current point cost it is a huge joke on space marine players.
I think the Redemptor is pretty bad compared to a Chaplain dreadnought. In a Primaris list its too expensive to where you can't spam it so the 1 or 2 you bring will take a lot of firepower and go down. It has the same problem the Repulsor has. They just cost too many points to synergize with the units they bring. The Redemptor to me is a really cool unit, but if I want a battle bot i'll just take a Chaplain Dreadnought.
My wishlist, aside from more Primaris, is for CTs to affect vehicles.
I know it'll just end up resulting in them being spammed even more than now, but imagine how absolutely fluffy it would be for RG to focus on flyer support with how hard to hit they'd be.
Or Iron Hands bringing tons of super durable tanks.
Or Ultra Razors and Raiders crashing into front lines to tie them up in combat, then disengaging to blast the next turn.
Or Imperial Fists...well, they like their infantry so I guess it doesn't matter.
Hi, lurking for a while and running primaris imperial fists. Thought I'd add my experiences just went 4-0 and took 1st in a small local tournament. The list i have been running at 2000pts is a battalion and vanguard:
HQ primaris captain(chapter master)
Lieutenant
Rhino primaris(only non primaris unit sort of)
Elite
Redemptor (storm bolters, onslaught cannons and pod)
5 Reivers (carbines, grav and grapples)
Primaris ancient ( relic banner)
3 aggressors ( flamers)
Troops
3x5 intercessors
Fast attack
6 bolter inceptors
Heavy
10 hellblasters
9 hellblasters
I run this exactly how you would expect everyone turtled around the captain and banner, with the intercessors working as my chaff. Overcharging plasma anytime the extra strength, wounds or shots would help. The chaptermaster and banner usually mitigate the burn outs but i do usually kill most of my hellblaster myself. Rerolling overwatch burning out guys then shooting again at full bs from the banner with rerolls is fun. If i dont feel like burning out guys i use the rhino to add+1 to hit on one of the hellblasters. I do like bolter drill situationally on the inceptors, the situation is dropping them within 6 of the warlord for rerolls, and +1 to hit from the rhino. Usually averages out to around 50 hits. Otherewise i usually combat squad them and just harrass stuff. The redemptor is a beast swinging in combat with chaptermaster and lietenant.
The only multi wound stuff i usually face is lascannons, krack missles etc pointed at my redemptor. I face mostly chaos marines and daemons and nids, not much 2d weapons outside of some laser destroyer mortar things. Hilarious to take 1d off a hellblaster with a lascannon.
Well played at the tournament. Interesting point on the multi-damage weapons. A lot of the stuff that's good in the meta right now is about 1 damage attacks - things like devourer flyrants. These don't really have a huge impact on primaris marines, especially if you can find cover.
Other things in the meta suck against primaris too like pinks and bloodletter bombs. 2 units of 20 pinks fully buffed failed to remove either unit of 5 intercessors. The lack of ap is great. The bloodletters managed to kill 5 intercessors but got wiped when they piled in on one of my big units of hellblasters.
Alot of the screen clearing people brought just didnt cut it against intercessors. Woulda killed like 50bguardsmen but only 8 intercessors.
Genestealers coming in killin most of 2 units of intercessors, fighting again and killing the rest. Intercessors still get to swing back on a 3+, killih a bunch. They piled into hellblasters and got punched half to death, the rest got moped up with small arms fire. Redemptor punched the mawloc and 2 carnis and most of ole one eye to death.
Rerolls to hit and 1s to wound are key for me like auxpex scanning 10 scarab occults with hellblasters, lost 2 hellblasters to overcharge but wiped the unit.
Primaris has been fun so far
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Mandragola wrote: Well played at the tournament. Interesting point on the multi-damage weapons. A lot of the stuff that's good in the meta right now is about 1 damage attacks - things like devourer flyrants. These don't really have a huge impact on primaris marines, especially if you can find cover.
The devourer tyrant on the side there put a single wound on the 5 man intercessor squad to the left, killed 3 in combat then got lit up by plasma
I've been running primaris with suprising success. I expected, based on the internet, for many armies to just walk through me, but the primaris prove really resilient. Its almost all primaris but for guilliman and a sicaran. My latest iteration is:
HQ Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor
Primaris Librarian
Troop
2x5 Intercessors
1x5 Intercessors with stalker bolters
Elite
3x bolter aggressors
Sicaran Battle Tank
Primaris Ancient
Redemptor with onslaughts, bolters, pod
Fast Attack
3x bolter inceptors
Heavy Support
2x5 Hellblasters
LOW
Roboute Guilliman
I took it to a local RTT and ended up winning, going 3-0. Played against a DA gun line with Azrael, Tzeentch Daemon army, another guilliman army. That last game was unfortunate for my opponent. His gman charged my gman and I hit with 5 shots in overwatch and he fails 4 saves and dies. I look forward to getting some reivers. Primaris have a hard time getting into the enemies deployment and they may fit that role.
Bonachinonin wrote: I've been running primaris with suprising success. I expected, based on the internet, for many armies to just walk through me, but the primaris prove really resilient. Its almost all primaris but for guilliman and a sicaran. My latest iteration is:
HQ Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor
Primaris Librarian
Troop
2x5 Intercessors
1x5 Intercessors with stalker bolters
Elite
3x bolter aggressors
Sicaran Battle Tank
Primaris Ancient
Redemptor with onslaughts, bolters, pod
Fast Attack
3x bolter inceptors
Heavy Support
2x5 Hellblasters
LOW
Roboute Guilliman
I took it to a local RTT and ended up winning, going 3-0. Played against a DA gun line with Azrael, Tzeentch Daemon army, another guilliman army. That last game was unfortunate for my opponent. His gman charged my gman and I hit with 5 shots in overwatch and he fails 4 saves and dies. I look forward to getting some reivers. Primaris have a hard time getting into the enemies deployment and they may fit that role.
the internet assumes every gun on the field is plasma always firing over charged always hitting etc
Bonachinonin wrote: I've been running primaris with suprising success. I expected, based on the internet, for many armies to just walk through me, but the primaris prove really resilient. Its almost all primaris but for guilliman and a sicaran. My latest iteration is:
HQ Primaris Captain in Gravis Armor
Primaris Librarian
Troop
2x5 Intercessors
1x5 Intercessors with stalker bolters
Elite
3x bolter aggressors
Sicaran Battle Tank
Primaris Ancient
Redemptor with onslaughts, bolters, pod
Fast Attack
3x bolter inceptors
Heavy Support
2x5 Hellblasters
LOW
Roboute Guilliman
I took it to a local RTT and ended up winning, going 3-0. Played against a DA gun line with Azrael, Tzeentch Daemon army, another guilliman army. That last game was unfortunate for my opponent. His gman charged my gman and I hit with 5 shots in overwatch and he fails 4 saves and dies. I look forward to getting some reivers. Primaris have a hard time getting into the enemies deployment and they may fit that role.
It is not a bad list on the standard of Marine of 8th edition tbh. I think I would suggest replacing the Captain with a second Librarian, especially Tigirius. For that one more chance of deny the witch to lessen the pain of smite spam. Not know what is your meta like, maybe it is just me always confronts tons of mortal wounds.........
Primaris are strong vs dakka and mortal wounds, but die miserably to multi-wound armies. Especially plasma. Plasma is just so efficient vs primaris, it cripples their viability, imo.
Did you have any success with those stalker bolters? I've done the same thing running 2x5 with bolt rifles and 1x5 with stalker bolters and they have done nothing for me except being resilient in cover on a objective.
Crimson_ wrote: Did you have any success with those stalker bolters? I've done the same thing running 2x5 with bolt rifles and 1x5 with stalker bolters and they have done nothing for me except being resilient in cover on a objective.
I've never used them because on paper they look like trash. They increase the point cost on a unit that is already there to eat shots and stand in front of other more important stuff. You lose half of your rate of fire in 15 inches and suffer -1 to hit when you move. If they had the sniper rule they would be worth considering for a unit designed to sit back and camp, but until then they are pretty bad.
Honestly it seems all (minus one possible exception) of the primaris weapon choices are bad. The stock loadouts (assuming aggressor stock is the bolter variant) are all cheaper and more efficient for their job. The biggest offender is the hellblaster I think. You pay more points for weaker guns. Like why do they even have options when the alternatives are so bad?
The stalker bolters do ok. I built them thinking they look cool. The perform like standard intercessors outside of rapid fire range. The longer range has come into play a few times and they help shooting people in cover. Honestly, the difference is so minor. I use them as a hard to remove unit in the back field to hold an objective.
Also, my main opponent is a thousand son army. So I get smited (smitten?) a lot. I found the librarian and the captain with the sanctic halo is good enough. The smiting is let through most of the time in an effort to stop the stronger powers like warptime or -1 to hit. Interestingly, I played iron hands a couple times, and the chapter tactic was really helpful.
Crimson_ wrote: Did you have any success with those stalker bolters? I've done the same thing running 2x5 with bolt rifles and 1x5 with stalker bolters and they have done nothing for me except being resilient in cover on a objective.
I've had a lot of success with Stalker Pattern Bolt Rifles, but they aren't really 'troop' choices at that point. You aren't going to be moving them if you can help it and they normally just sit still and shoot. -2AP is a sweet spot in this meta. I use 2 5 man DA squads with Stalkers but screen them with scouts and 2 squads of IH standard bolt rifle squads. I'd love to use Auto Bolt Rifles, but they aren't worth paying more points for.
Finished 1st in a local rtt of 20 people with my primaris army. Played sisters and then two daemon players. Some highlights include a 3 man aggressor unit shooting 67 times at a great unclean one, bringing it down to 2 wounds left. Killing scabbieathrax in a single turn, and killing 60 blood letters and 20 plaguebearers in a single turn (this was the last game, very intense).
Plasma/Fist is the best imo, with Gravis being a pretty woeful option. ... Or you can model a standard captain on a Primaris frame and get full access to what a Captain can be (Teeth of terra, storm shield, jumppack, etc). My cap is the only non-primaris unit I field, except dreads and the like.
grouchoben wrote: Plasma/Fist is the best imo, with Gravis being a pretty woeful option. ... Or you can model a standard captain on a Primaris frame and get full access to what a Captain can be (Teeth of terra, storm shield, jumppack, etc). My cap is the only non-primaris unit I field, except dreads and the like.
Wouldn't the normal Captain not be able to get in Primaris transports?
Yeah, he can't get in the repulsor, so your list goes up one drop. He can deepstrike to where he's need though, so there's no other restraint - which makes him great with plasceptors or RG Aggressors. And teeth of terra/jumppack/MC bolter is only 96pts, which is a lot better than any Primaris option, and cheaper than them all.
Sticking to the primaris theme, I use the gravis captain. Been playing around with the different chapter tactics. Salamanders relic (I think) for +1 T and then might of heroes for T7 on the captain is funny. I wish it allowed more customization. My captain almost always plays goal keeper, zoning out any assaulters.
Yeah I know a lot of people don't like the gravis models but I love them all. They look like bosses - so I wish the Gravis Cap was worth a damn! That +1T really isn't worth 30-odd points and -1", and he suffers, as you say, from a really stiff and un-optimised loadout. One day, he'll get a fresh lease of life, and will be a really fun beatstick...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but which is the best Captain choice to take? Gravis, plasma/fist, or the rifle Captain?
Have you considered taking a Primaris Lieutenant? Seriously the +1 to wound seems better that the tohit rerolls (especially for DA) and they are dirt cheap compared to a captain.
I like my plasma pistol and power fist guy. He isn’t too expensive and can hit really hard with the fist of vengeance – though that’s only relevant if you play crimson fists.
Otherwise the rifle guy is fine if you just want him to sit back and give out auras, especially if he has storm of fire.
The gravis guy is the best. It’s just a bit irritating that you have to buy him two close combat weapons, when he’ll hardly ever use his master crafted power sword. And it’s also annoying that the normal captain’s sword can’t be master crafted! Still, if you have the points to spare he’s decent. T5 is a pretty big improvement in his durability.
I find that my Cap normally attracts a lot of attention when he engages, and that his invuln makes a bigger difference than whether he's T4 or T5. That and his slower speed and bigger transport needs - and his +30pts - means he never sees the table for me anymore. Am I missing something Mandragola? Sell me on him, as I love his model!
My gravis captain usually has the sanctic halo when in my Ultramarine force with gman. The guy had celestine charge my front line. Gman rolls up and knocks her into the ground. She pops up behind my army to assassinate my gravis captain who is buffing nearby units and hiding from a vindicare. I make my gravis captain my warlord so I am less reluctant to fling gman at things. Anyways, she charges, 1 hit gets through. He hits her and does 6 damage in that round, killing her on my turn. Not bad as a backfield defender.
I guess so - but a teeth of terra barebones cap would have done pretty well in that match up too, at nearly half the price. I'd take 4+1d3 attacks at S5 -2 2D against celestine over 5 S8 -3 1d3 at -1 to hit any day of the week.
Expected damage vs Celestine, from the gravis with powerfist: 3.2. Expected damage from captain barebones: 4.
Primaris in Gravis is so much better in my opinion... more wounds and more T. And I have to tell you the AP for Teeth is really bad against anything with a good armor save... pretty much a butter knife against 2+ and 3+.
Primark G wrote: Primaris in Gravis is so much better in my opinion... more wounds and more T. And I have to tell you the AP for Teeth is really bad against anything with a good armor save... pretty much a butter knife against 2+ and 3+.
Interesting. I'm finding that strenght and wounds are more valuable than Ap beyond -2. So many models these days seem to rock a 4++ that high AP is kind of wasted.
I do think that the Gravis guy is strictly the best one. That's not the same as saying he's the most efficient. He's tough and he has a lot of wounds, but he pays for a sword that he's almost certainly never going to use. He apparently does this just to bully the normal primaris captain, who has to make do with an ordinary power sword.
My two favorite Primaris Captains are the Gravis and power fist with plasma pistol. For the Gravis variant I’d probably take the 2+ armor relic... versus AP1 it’s better than the Iron Halo and the same versus AP2.
Not disputing the teeth of terra captain being very good, but if we are looking at what the gravis captain can do, then I think we are underselling it a bit. I actually used the power sword in my above example. I have never been disappointed in having him.
Ok, but the power sword is mathematically worse than the fist against pretty much everything. They are equal against T3 and the sword is better against T2, but you want to use the fist against anything else (until T16 I guess). If fighting 2 wound T3 models it would make sense to use the sword. If you can boost the guy's strength, such as with might of heroes, that changes things quite a bit as the sword becomes probably the best option vs T4.
So basically it's annoying to pay 10 points for a weapon that you'll hardly ever use.
Mandragola wrote: Ok, but the power sword is mathematically worse than the fist against pretty much everything. They are equal against T3 and the sword is better against T2, but you want to use the fist against anything else (until T16 I guess). If fighting 2 wound T3 models it would make sense to use the sword. If you can boost the guy's strength, such as with might of heroes, that changes things quite a bit as the sword becomes probably the best option vs T4.
So basically it's annoying to pay 10 points for a weapon that you'll hardly ever use.
Yeah, pretty much agree, and Powerfist still pulls ahead of the sword against T2 Nurglings
Primark G wrote: Primaris in Gravis is so much better in my opinion... more wounds and more T. And I have to tell you the AP for Teeth is really bad against anything with a good armor save... pretty much a butter knife against 2+ and 3+.
I dont understand what you mean about -2 being terrible. It's the sweet spot. I mean, gravis does have +1 w&t. That's not nothing. And he's better against tanks and the like. But terra cap has more attacks, no minus to hit, better mobility and is so much cheaper it's not funny. He also has a 15pt jumppack option which is solid gold on him. And a stormshield if you want him tanky. Even with both he's still 20pts cheaper.
It's not just terra cap though - primaris cap with fist and plasma is almost the same model, except -1" move and +1 T. For 30pts.
I'd like to discuss other's experiences with not bringing scouts in an all primaris army. I played a guy who brought 76 blood letters, 30 plague bearers, 18 flamers with the supporting characters and then nurglings and brimstones for objectives. The only non primaris in my army was my sicaran, as I literally lacked the primaris models to get to 2k, and gman who I make an exception for. His list should have been titled Alpha Strike, the Army. He was going to reserve pretty much everything and drop it on me with 3d6 charge on multiple bloodletter units. Flamers to kill chaff. I was worried to be honest, but I had a few aces up my sleeve. Aggressors, null zone, and the redemptor as well as his poor leadership generally. My deployment was as such:
Spoiler:
He drops his flamers in turn 1 and tries to kill my intercessor screens, but the durability of the primaris shows here. He had flickering flame and another buff on one unit as well. He kills most of the center unit and only 1 or 2 from the other units. 2 squads of bloodletters and the characters deep strike in the building on the first floor where I can't see them(we doing ITC missions). My retaliation kills all the flamers. I push a little further to spread my dz out. This turn he comes at me with 3 bloodletter squads and the plague bearer squad, all make their charges. My brave intercessors die and a hellblaster unit goes too. But my turn flips the game as I am able to kill all 4 units. The Ultramarine retreat and shoot is key here. I am able to push back after this and slowly take the board.
Now I understand scouts are great for what they offer, but with the limited model range primaris have, has anyone else had success against alpha strike armies while trying to stick to the pure primaris.
Yes, basically. Same story as you had there. The difference between scout screens and intercessors is that intercessors tend to actually survive a turn or two. But scouts get to extend the screen outwards, which is very useful. They can attack shooting armies in ways intercessors can’t really.
I take a scout unit that I’ve converted out of reiver bodies, intercessor arms and scout squad gubbins. I shaved back the armour on the arms and legs, leaving the reiver boots, straps and pouches. I’ve also put primaris pilots in my planes. They have come out ok I think.
I'd just like to chip in with a couple of questions, I've always used Tactical Marines but only the last week or so ventured into Primaris. So far I have a squad of Intercessors and Reivers and was wondering.
1: What are the best weapons to have on both units? I've built them with a bit of a mix because I like the look of them, but I'm thinking the standard Bolt Rifles on the Intercessors and Knives on the Reivers.
2: With the Reivers, is it best to spend 20pts on Grapples or 1CP on the RG strategem to get them close?
Valkyrie wrote: I'd just like to chip in with a couple of questions, I've always used Tactical Marines but only the last week or so ventured into Primaris. So far I have a squad of Intercessors and Reivers and was wondering.
1: What are the best weapons to have on both units? I've built them with a bit of a mix because I like the look of them, but I'm thinking the standard Bolt Rifles on the Intercessors and Knives on the Reivers.
2: With the Reivers, is it best to spend 20pts on Grapples or 1CP on the RG strategem to get them close?
For me, I will always plan on spending the CP to Raven Guard the Reivers in. Sure, if you don’t get first turn you have to be more defensive, but, if they are there supporting other assault units in the first turn, their ability to deny overwatch comes in handy. And then, if they are that close, they might as well get the extra attacks from the Knife.
If I wasn’t running Raven Guard though, I’d prob always pay for the deep striking options, and then -maybe- consider the Carbine… But, at -1 AP, I’d still probably end up using the pistol more than the Carbine.
If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.
Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.
Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.
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Martel732 wrote: Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.
Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.
"Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire."
They don't have to get their points back, first of all. This is the IG we're talking about. They can afford a couple of unfavorable exchanges vs marines. Several, actually.
Auspex scan won't kill the plasma guns, which is all that really matters. And don't forget the scion strike is also backed up by battle cannons, manticores, etc. Your screen is dead, you are pushed 9" back, and you are playing a slow ass army. IG probably won maelstrom or the maelstrom component of ITC right there.
RG Intercessors are a really tough troop choice. I always run at least 2 squads in my marine lists. -1ap is a big deal compared to normal bolters; they're suprisingly solid in CC; the grenade launcher is sometimes handy at long-range punts, and in cover they're 2+ at -1 to hit with 2 wounds. Their natural enemy is overcharged plasma, so the -1 to hit synergises with them ever so well, as noone in their right minds is going to overcharge at -1 to hit just to wipe a squad of intercessors.
The best way to use them is to put them somewhere that your opponent can't ignore them, like at a choke point or holding an objective, otherwise they should and will be ignored, as they're too much hassle to bother with. Use them to *intercede*!
Their basic rifles are solid. Assault are meh but I could see a case for a single unit to run and gun; stalkers are a bit dissappointing.
Reivers are the weakest unit in the Primairis lineup as they stand. They desperately need some AP, as they just bounce off anything above chaff. I like them with grapples for shenanigans, as I'm loathe to spend a CP on them when I have Aggressors begging to be started up in my opponent's face.
(I know you didn't ask about them but Agressors are amazing. Their guns clear chaff so well, and their fists are great against higher value targets.)
Martel732 wrote: "Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire."
They don't have to get their points back, first of all. This is the IG we're talking about. They can afford a couple of unfavorable exchanges vs marines. Several, actually.
Auspex scan won't kill the plasma guns, which is all that really matters. And don't forget the scion strike is also backed up by battle cannons, manticores, etc. Your screen is dead, you are pushed 9" back, and you are playing a slow ass army. IG probably won maelstrom or the maelstrom component of ITC right there.
Right, but you said things get ugly for intercessors when triple plasma scions come knocking. My point is that isn't particularly accurate.
If the scions come down and kill the screens, then the screens have done their job. The purpose of screens is to stop the scions, and stuff like them, from shooting my valuable stuff. If the IG guy also wants to fire battlecannons and manticores at them then that's cool too.
Obviously there's other stuff in the IG army. Guess what? there's also other stuff in the marine army.
Also why won't auspex scan kill plasma guns? Are you talking about troop scion units with 2 plasma guns per squad? I thought you meant command squads with 4.
Movement and maelstrom is indeed an issue for Primaris. That's one of the reasons why SftS is so good, and having something to deep strike is so valuable. But on the other hand kill points are a nightmare for IG, so my experience is that they might pull ahead on maelstrom but they'll fall back on kill points.
I never play standard kill points. Only PL-based kill points. Yes, raven guard makes everything better for sure.
I was thinking 10 man scions with 4 plasma guns because i've been seeing that more lately.
Another point i guess is that against primaris, ig are in no rush so they can be greedy and take out the forward elements to game against maelstrom. Primaris can't hurt ig in the shooting phase much outside aggressors.
Mandragola wrote: If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.
Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.
Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.
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Martel732 wrote: Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.
Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.
Bolt rifles are only better at 15'' when double tap gets involved. Intercessors with autobolters can provide their full damage potential at all times while maintaining the -1 to hit chapter tactic, which offers you more tactical flexibility. I'd say there's no clear cut winner, honestly. I've had success with both. You might wonder why not just take Reivers - well, Reivers aren't objective secured and I have better options to take for the points in the Elite slot.
Great point on the plasma scions. That's a good time to have bolt rifles since even if they try to drop 12.1'' away, you'll still be in rapid fire range next turn, and without double tap those scions aren't removing that unit.
For a 10-man squad w/4 plasma, and a tempestor prime for the order, you're looking at 198pts with no frills: it can expect to kill nearly 5 intercessors, if you include the hotshot.
So 200pts deepstriking and shooting plasma at 91pts of marines just about wipes the squad, and also loses two models from auspex if the marine player is CP happy. Looking at the maths, I'd say that's a pretty acceptable performance from the Primaris imo.
Martel732 wrote: Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.
Well you could always intercept them. -1 to hit sure but hitting on 4s wounding on 3s on a small or big unit that may or may not be in rapid fire range because they sure will be.
edit: didnt realize the page scrolled.
but 10 man probably in RF, 20 shots, 10 hits, 6-7 wounds. at -1 ap assuming no cover saves would be 4ish dead guys. + or - depending on specific circumstances.
Note, if the Tempestus are shooting at an equal points amount of Intercessors (11 models), then the Intercessors will be left with around 7 or 8 models, because the Tempestus can expect to lose 5 models before they get to fire, from auspex array, probaly triggering another loss from morale... Ugly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seeing that makes me think about ten-man intercessor squads seriously for the first time!
Mandragola wrote: If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.
Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.
Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.
Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.
Bolt rifles are only better at 15'' when double tap gets involved. Intercessors with autobolters can provide their full damage potential at all times while maintaining the -1 to hit chapter tactic, which offers you more tactical flexibility. I'd say there's no clear cut winner, honestly. I've had success with both. You might wonder why not just take Reivers - well, Reivers aren't objective secured and I have better options to take for the points in the Elite slot.
Bolt rifles double tap at 15" and Auto Bolt Rifles double-tap out to 18", but rifles can just plan shoot out to 30" and don't cost extra points. Even my close support intercessors have started taking standard bolt rifles just because of the point savings.
grouchoben wrote: Note, if the Tempestus are shooting at an equal points amount of Intercessors (11 models), then the Intercessors will be left with around 7 or 8 models, because the Tempestus can expect to lose 5 models before they get to fire, from auspex array, probaly triggering another loss from morale... Ugly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seeing that makes me think about ten-man intercessor squads seriously for the first time!
They're not shooting equal points, though. And the IG player knows they are taking a slight loss on the deal. But they are pushing the enemy army back 9" or so on average against a list that sucks at moving and can't shoot worth a gak. Totally worth it. The bottom line to me is that the mere threat of overcharge plasma makes me balk on primaris.
I think the way I’d cut it would be intercessors with bolt rifles, and reivers with carbines if I wanted the assault option... which to be honest I don’t really.
A 10 man intercessor squad for auspex scan is interesting. Morale could be an issue.
By the way, scions don’t get to rapid fire their Laguna when they deep strike. They only have an 18” range, so they can’t rapid fire.
Mandragola wrote: If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.
Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.
Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.
Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.
Bolt rifles are only better at 15'' when double tap gets involved. Intercessors with autobolters can provide their full damage potential at all times while maintaining the -1 to hit chapter tactic, which offers you more tactical flexibility. I'd say there's no clear cut winner, honestly. I've had success with both. You might wonder why not just take Reivers - well, Reivers aren't objective secured and I have better options to take for the points in the Elite slot.
Bolt rifles double tap at 15" and Auto Bolt Rifles double-tap out to 18", but rifles can just plan shoot out to 30" and don't cost extra points. Even my close support intercessors have started taking standard bolt rifles just because of the point savings.
Autobolters on Primaris are 24'' Assault 2, which gives you the incentive of being mobile from turn 1 by giving up 6'' of range. It's a bit more valuable for armies like RG because it means you're getting your full damage potential on that weapon while the mobility and speed maintains your chapter tactic. Like I said, though, it's tactical flexibility you're buying here for a unit who's primary job is to intercede. I like the auto bolter playstyle for being aggressive. But if you buy something far more valuable for the points you save in the rest of your list, then I'd say stick with the rifles.
grouchoben wrote: Note, if the Tempestus are shooting at an equal points amount of Intercessors (11 models), then the Intercessors will be left with around 7 or 8 models, because the Tempestus can expect to lose 5 models before they get to fire, from auspex array, probaly triggering another loss from morale... Ugly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seeing that makes me think about ten-man intercessor squads seriously for the first time!
They're not shooting equal points, though. And the IG player knows they are taking a slight loss on the deal. But they are pushing the enemy army back 9" or so on average against a list that sucks at moving and can't shoot worth a gak. Totally worth it. The bottom line to me is that the mere threat of overcharge plasma makes me balk on primaris.
I've never been scared of overcharged plasma on Intercessors. Overcharged plasma always comes to me anyway, so my mobility is irrelevant. It's the long range autocannon equivalents that always hurt me the most.
All you ever do is give testament to AM... they have taken quite a dip in the power curve. According to you they auto-trump SM but why run them when they are auto-trumped by other more powerful races now?
They only suffer in tournaments because of time limits. In my meta, we play to completion. Eldar and nids struggle vs ig with no artificial game ends. The firepower and durability of the ig is insane.
I play in several leagues and all games are played to completion. It is just not possible for competitive tournaments for slow players nor should it be IMO.
As it should be. But I've watched MANY bat reps, and that's how tournament goers are escaping the full wrath of the IG. IG turns take FOREVER. That doesn't help.
If units are shooting same target roll everything together. Anyways this is getting way off topic. I can imagine you with a Bassie beside your pillow at night.
Bottom line: I think IG are bad news for primaris. Primaris are really nice against lists that live at medium or short range or rely on mortal wounds. Long range multi wound is just such a terrible matchup, and they don't really have any way to mitigate that problem.
My approach is to make an army that looks like it’s all primaris, but isn’t quite. So I put primaris guys driving my xiphon and stormraven, for example, and will do the same for my fire raptor. P
My “primaris” scouts are nearly done. I’m quite pleased with how they are coming out. It’s my first go at camo, and hasn’t come out perfectly, but looks ok I think.
Rolling and re-rolling does take a long time. IG artillery that rerolls 1s to hit is a pain, even if all those mortars don’t really do anything to primaris in cover. My repulsors are a culprit here too to be honest, especially if my captain and lieutenant are around.
In my mind scouts and the non-transport flyers are totally legit for a all Primaris army. Bobby G and Tigurius are exceptions depending on the strength of the other army.
Mandragola wrote: Rolling and re-rolling does take a long time. IG artillery that rerolls 1s to hit is a pain, even if all those mortars don’t really do anything to primaris in cover. My repulsors are a culprit here too to be honest, especially if my captain and lieutenant are around.
Glad you guys like the scouts
I didn't get to basilisk and manticore phase in my post. And, yeah, that's a phase for IG. My favorite IG story: the manticore made a local cheesemonger RAEGQUIT because it wounded his FW nurgle demon on a 3+. Hilarious and sad at the same time. Yeah, your repulsors don't have a chance against them.
Mandragola wrote: Rolling and re-rolling does take a long time. IG artillery that rerolls 1s to hit is a pain, even if all those mortars don’t really do anything to primaris in cover. My repulsors are a culprit here too to be honest, especially if my captain and lieutenant are around.
Glad you guys like the scouts
I didn't get to basilisk and manticore phase in my post. And, yeah, that's a phase for IG. My favorite IG story: the manticore made a local cheesemonger RAEGQUIT because it wounded his FW nurgle demon on a 3+. Hilarious and sad at the same time. Yeah, your repulsors don't have a chance against them.
No, I was saying it takes a long time to resolve the shooting of my two repulsors.
It's quite hard to calculate the average shots that a catachan basilisk will fire. I think it's slightly more than 4. Once you've hit, wounded and I've failed my save (or not) a basilisk averages out a little under 3 wounds per turn to a repulsor. A manticore is a bit better - around 4.4. That's with rerolls of 1s to hit, which Harker hands out. Between them, 3 basilisks and 3 manticores should take out a repulsor. That stuff costs about 805 points.
The problem the IG guy has is that I go first slightly more than 60% of the time. Between my two repulsors, fire raptor and hellblasters (if in range, which they might well be), I do a ton of damage to the manticores. And I also gun down a load of infantry at the same time with the small arms that covers my tanks. Maybe I have the fire raptor charge a tank or two, to further reduce the firepower coming back.
If my repulsors fire all their guns at a T7 3+ save tank, and are near my captain and lieutentant, they do 10.88 wounds, or 9.37 if they can't get within 18". I can improve that average by using a CP on a bad lascannon wound roll or something. These things have 11 wounds each, and only hit on a 6+ if they take 9 wounds. Likewise the fire raptor, if it fires all its guns at it, does 10.8 wounds - even without the aura buffs. So my first turn is pretty scary too.
The IG guy also has a problem with my fire raptor. It's the nastiest thing in my army for him but also the hardest to kill. Does he try and shoot it down while all his AT is still alive, but risk failing and leaving my repulsors to run amok, or does he ignore it?
My experience of fighting IG is that the person going first wins. Their tanks are dangerous but not hugely tough - including Leman Russ because lascannons don't care about T9. It really ruins their day if repulsors get into their lines because the IG tanks will hardly ever fire after that.
This is one of the reasons that IG don't tend to make a big splash at tournaments. They will sometimes maths people to death, but at other times they'll get swamped. For instance in my game against orks last weekend he cast da jump and got a charge off with 30 boyz, engaging a ton of my units in the consolidate move - and surrounding some so the boyz couldn't be shot. I recovered from that, by flying my tanks away and counter-charging with a load of Primaris guys to kill all the orks in melee. But for an IG guy I think that might well have been it for the game. Indeed I did lose to an IG guy, who had a shadowsword and 3 basilisks with Harker, because he went first, but it actually wasn't a big loss and I finished ahead of him in the end.
Fire Raptors aren't that dangerous to an army where everything is SO cheap. They should ignore it and swamp objectives.
AGainst most IG lists in my experience, you can't charge with the fire raptor, because there is no legal place to put said fire raptor within 12" of the artillery/tanks. It doesn't sound like your opponent is leveraging the 4 ppm absurdity correctly. Remember you have to move before you waste your time shooting guardsmen. I can count the number of times on one hand where my IG opponent has let me "jump over" anything. Too many models. Too much board coverage.
They only need to clip your repulsors with a couple lascannons to free up a LOT of artillery to nuke your 2W models off the table. IG are so cheap they CAN have it all. There's a reason I snicker everytime I see Repulsors. TOUGH AS A LEMAN RUSS! FOR TWICE THE POINTS! GLORIOUS!
For their price point, and inability to project long-range fire, repulsors need 2+ armor.
IG tanks do suffer a lot from degredation, but there's always 100 more where that came from. Meanwhile, you have 2 tanks.
Martel732 wrote: They are playing as fast as they can. But understand this:
Mortar team 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses
Mortar team 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses
Mortar team 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses
Just to chime in here, the catachan doctrine does not effect infantry based multi shot weapons, only tanks. Im not disagreeing howerver, the amount of re rolls (not just guard, all forces) is a bit excessive.
I'm pretty sure I've seen people rerolling for mortars too. I guess they should be S4 in combat instead. Oh well.
As for hiding manticores, sometimes that will be possibe, but not always and not for all of them. And it's near-impossible to hide from a fire raptor.
Ultimately, being shot at by guard is really nasty - but they aren't great at winning tournaments. They give up too many KPs and are awful at going to take objectives. As a result they aren't all that common on the tournament scene. It's a tricky one because you need to be able to take them on, but you shouldn't really build an army around doing it.
Honestly my approach vs guard is to zerg as much as possible, put intercessors in cover on objectives (which I'll place in cover, obvs), take cheap KPs where I can and hope the clock runs out if it looks like I'm getting tabled. I never slow play, but the simple fact is it's hard to finish games to a time limit with that much dice rolling and rerolling.
I’m not aware of any tournaments - in the UK at least - using PLKPs. Standard ITC, ETC and GW tournaments seem to use standard kill points.
PL could be used more. It would be interesting if in deployment you had to set up equal or over what the other guy had put down. And using it for KPs does make sense.
Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.
It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).
As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.
Colgado wrote: Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.
It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).
As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.
Thoughts?
In that approach, use Blood Angel, your Primaris Gravis Captain is wounding even Magnus / Mortarion on 2s on the charge with his 5 attacks (6 attacks if you use the stratagem to make him fall into black rage), while your 60 Intercessors will wound the Daemon Primarch on 4s with their a total 120 attacks in theory, LoL.
Colgado wrote: Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.
It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).
As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.
Thoughts?
In that approach, use Blood Angel, your Primaris Gravis Captain is wounding even Magnus / Mortarion on 2s on the charge with his 5 attacks (6 attacks if you use the stratagem to make him fall into black rage), while your 60 Intercessors will wound the Daemon Primarch on 4s with their a total 120 attacks in theory, LoL.
I think Blood Angels Primaris Grav Caps are solid, but Primaris can't use the Death Visions of Sanguinius stratagem to get Black Rage.
Unless it was FAQ'd... I haven't paid as much attention to the BA stuff.
Colgado wrote: Has anyone tried or thought about an almost swarm style approach to primaris lists? I'm talking 50-60 intercessors in 2 batallions or a brigade. That's a lot of wounds to deal with. In a 2K list you'd still have enough for hellblasters or plasma interceptors for harder targets.
It seems like it would be great at board control and in an ITC format you could run each squad at 9 man and give up virtually no secondaries besides head hunter. You would only run infantry to make AT weapons wasteful, and while D2 weapons aren't rare I haven't seen too many list that truly have it in abundance (there are exceptions).
As Dark Angels you have built in re-rolls, solve the morale issue, and have Wotda to make your plasma a serious threat.
As Ravenguard that is just a ton of -1 to hit wounds to chew through.
As Blood Angels you can hold your own in melee and straight bully any non-melee units.
Thoughts?
In that approach, use Blood Angel, your Primaris Gravis Captain is wounding even Magnus / Mortarion on 2s on the charge with his 5 attacks (6 attacks if you use the stratagem to make him fall into black rage), while your 60 Intercessors will wound the Daemon Primarch on 4s with their a total 120 attacks in theory, LoL.
I think Blood Angels Primaris Grav Caps are solid, but Primaris can't use the Death Visions of Sanguinius stratagem to get Black Rage.
Unless it was FAQ'd... I haven't paid as much attention to the BA stuff.
Oh..
Yeah, you are right, Looks like Primaris got their gene-seed fixed......
I've had some minor luck running Ultramarines as a Primaris horde.
Gravis Captain
Lt.
3-10 man intercessor squads
3-10 man Helblasters
FW Rapier and crew
Stormtalon with twin assault cannon and missile launcher
Hellblasters , captain, and Lt. castle up in area terrain, Intercessors provide cover and bubblewrap.
rapier pops mid-grade vehicles or monsters
Stormtalon takes out other fliers, smallish chaff units, or outliers.
So with the HB/MLDev buffs, I've broken, and modded Intercessors for a 5-man squad. 127pts for 3 HB, a SB & a ML, -1 to hit from RG, hugging cover all game, and giving me a way to translate CPs into mortal wounds is just too good a deal.
How about you? Have you cracked and used primaris bodies to mod out non-primaris units for your supposed Primaris army? If so, what units did you view as too good to pass up?
Took my primaris imperial fists to a tournament out of town last weekend and scored another best general, won best overall too on account of there being only 3 fully painted armies.
At 1850 i ran
Primaris capt w powersword
Lt
Rhino primaris
3x5 intercessors
6 inceptors
Gatling redeptor
Ancient with relic banner
5 reivers
3 bolter agressors
10 hellblasters
5 hellblasters
First game was relic against deathguard wiped morty and all thr poxwalkers and plaguemarines by turn 2, lost my relic carrying captain to typhus but still controlled it. Second game vs admech was a supply depoy with 6 objectives. Rolling at the start of the turn for a 6 to remove all the other objectives. A 6 never came up so it was a minor victory. 3rd game vs dark angels and the dude ran a unit of 10 bikers and a flyer right at my hellblasters so that was game. Not the most competitive meta but i got my name on a chainsword.
So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.
No, because they are still raped by 2 damage weapons.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: So Deathwatch appears to be the new go to for primaris armies. We also have confirmation that intercessors will get special issue ammunition. If that is an altered form or if they get a point hike is unknown atm. If it stays as is though intercessors are going to be SCARY.
No, because they are still raped by 2 damage weapons.
18 points for their durability and output is pretty good. Not every single weapon fired is 2 damage. I think you also have to factor in that because they would be actually a threat your opponent would want to devote firepower into taking them out which saves your other units like hellblasters aggressors or tanks a few wounds. Or if they ignore the intercessors they will be able to put some wounds on their targets.
You say that, but disintegrators are now only 15 pts and have easy access to ignore cover. Talos punch for 2. It adds up really fast, even though primaris are boss vs splinter.
Gravis armor needs to give a wound to even things out. That would help a LOT.
Primaris are getting hurt by other meta changes, too. The last game I had against primaris went even more poorly than usual for them because I"m shifting to a stalker/autocannon approach because of all the cheap invulns on Xeno stuff and crap like quantum shielding. This meta shift is disastrous for primaris. The Stalker killed 1.7 X its own points in inceptors easily.
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Primark G wrote: 2 DMG weapons don't make tactical Marines better - same old tired reply.
Actually it does. Because math. Your opponent is losing a damage.
I'll quit giving this reply when it stops being true.
"Or if they ignore the intercessors they will be able to put some wounds on their targets. "
Too slowly. The firepower of a 90 whatever intercessor unit is quite comical. Wounding the raiders on 5's. Yeah... they don't matter.
You say that, but disintegrators are now only 15 pts and have easy access to ignore cover. Talos punch for 2. It adds up really fast, even though primaris are boss vs splinter.
Gravis armor needs to give a wound to even things out. That would help a LOT.
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Primark G wrote: 2 DMG weapons don't make tactical Marines better - same old tired reply.
Actually it does. Because math. Your opponent is losing a damage.
I'll quit giving this reply when it stops being true.
"Or if they ignore the intercessors they will be able to put some wounds on their targets. "
Too slowly. The firepower of a 90 whatever intercessor unit is quite comical. Wounding the raiders on 5's. Yeah... they don't matter.
I absolutely agree Dissy cannons are tailor made to kill primaris. That specific gun in that specific army is amazing for killing primaris. I wouldn't even play my primaris force against dark eldar because of that gun. Thankfully, there are a lot of other armies that don't have access to that gun.
Intercessors with SIA would actually be rather killy against non-vehicle targets. They can double tap out to 18 inches at s4 ap-2 or wound on 2s against all none-vehicles and still have ap -1. Dark eldar seem to be a HARD counter to Primaris so I don't think its fair to compare everything Primairs against their hard counter. Not every army is dark eldar, not every army soups them in and not every army is tailor made to do 2 damage on all their guns.
Dude my army with a single stalker hard countered them like the little bitches they are. Oh, I had a pred autocannon too. And some missile launchers. After I killed the hell blasters, it was a giant sanguinary guard party. Reivers and intercessors have basically no way of stopping SG. Which are trivially murdered by the Drukhari.
" I wouldn't even play my primaris force against dark eldar because of that gun"
And that is when you a concept is a complete fail.
Dissy is super killing against a lot of things. If you said you arent going to play a unit coz there is a weapon that hurts them that is pretty silly plus no one competitive is running them since dark lance is overall much better. Martel used to complain about IGHWT with autocannons one shotting Primaris.
Martel732 wrote:Dude my army with a single stalker hard countered them like the little bitches they are. Oh, I had a pred autocannon too. And some missile launchers. After I killed the hell blasters, it was a giant sanguinary guard party. Reivers and intercessors have basically no way of stopping SG. Which are trivially murdered by the Drukhari.
" I wouldn't even play my primaris force against dark eldar because of that gun"
And that is when you a concept is a complete fail.
The concept of Primaris marines is great if you ask me. Finally we are seeing bigger and better marines that more accurately reflect the strength of a marine. Imagine if this was 7th and they still had 2 wounds. That would be a really big deal. The current rule set is punishing for them, but it is by no means a failed concept. Also note they are not yet a fully realized range of models and are baked into established codices. They were not designed to be ran as a pure army as of yet. They are only going to get more options and hopefully before long we will see an affordable transport for them as opposed to their garbage repulsor tank. They do have a significant weakness to certain army lists and weapons that is absolutely true, but if they do get SIA they will be in a much better spot than they are now.
Primark G wrote:Dissy is super killing against a lot of things. If you said you arent going to play a unit coz there is a weapon that hurts them that is pretty silly plus no one competitive is running them since dark lance is overall much better. Martel used to complain about IGHWT with autocannons one shotting Primaris.
Dissy cannons are an absolutely great weapon all around. As a Dark Eldar player I can verify their strength. If a person had a huge amount of them and I am pure Primaris I am very likely going to get steam rolled so I'd rather not bother playing that game. Its the same concept as fighting two primarchs in a 1000 point game as Primaris. It is just not going to work out for you. I would also contest that "nobody is running them" bit because 1. It is still very early on in the lifespan of the codex so its hard to say what works and what does not on a competitive level and they for sure have a niche alongside the dark lance.
IG with autocannons is super effective vs primaris. I stopped complaining because people got sick of it. But 48" s7 d2 -1 save is better than ever. And primaris struggle to neutralize hwts.
Dark lance is NOT better overall, esp vs t8.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Laugh all you want, a one wound marine does waste some damage potential for the disintegrator. Disparaging me doesn't improve your argument.
Lots of people. Look at the last three codices. Autocannons are arguably better tham lascannons now. I'm thinking about going to two stalkers and an autocannon russ because of meta shifts.
The ridiculous sensationalism spewed in this thread lately is too damn high.
Nobody seriously believes autocannon HWTs are a sufficient counter. Nobody would ever, ever run autocannon HWTs because they aren't worth it against literally everything else. That's just ridiculous I literally can't even
There are a large number of targets for which the autocannon, or anything similar is the optimal weapon now. The last three codices changes the landscape a LOT.
Martel732 wrote: There are a large number of targets for which the autocannon, or anything similar is the optimal weapon now. The last three codices changes the landscape a LOT.
The problem isn't the targets, it's a super ridiculously soft unit that will fold up and die to a sneeze. That's why mortars are superior, because contrary to popular opinion, this game is not played in a spreadsheet comparing damage output for a single turn.
But even if we wanted to, 3 squads of 3 HWTs with autocannons fires 18 shots, hits 9 times, causes 6 wounds, 3 of which are unsaved, killing 3 Primaris marines. All assuming the autocannons don't move and the Primaris aren't RG or in cover. Furthermore, they are exposed to return fire - all for exactly the same price as 9 Primaris Intercessors. They need to make it to turn 4 to start making back their points in Primaris kills. They will not make turn 2 with how easy they are to shut down.
Autocannons are decent against some targets. I do think there’s a case for bringing a few 2-ish damage, multiple shot guns. They are good for firing at things like necron vehicles and lighter stuff with invulnerables – so the various open-topped DE and harlequin skimmers and anything up to flyrants.
Fortunately, marines have access to plasma on hellblasters, which does this job pretty well. It’s not really optimal against stuff with invulnerables, but it still does a ton of damage to them. I’ve recently added a storm cannon-armed leviathan dread to my list to help out in this area.
I’ve still got a couple of las talons and twin lascannons on my repulsors as well, for an equivalent of 8 lascannons, but a mix of firepower is probably the best approach. I don’t think we’ll start seeing spammed autocannon HWTs any time soon, but they are probably the best weapon on things like autocannon sentinels.
Stalkers are probably reasonably good. I’d been thinking of taking one but haven't got round to it so far. They’d be a useful tool against elder and crons, and are also a pretty cheap way to fill out a spearhead or brigade.
I think we're getting hung up on hwts here. I just mentioned them because I've seen them recently. The IG has a lot of different ways to bring autocannons, and lots of armies have many ways to bring an equivalent weapon. If you look at the recent releases, these weapons are superior to lascannons for the most part against said releases.
Hellblasters are not good at this job because their range is poor in comparison and their 2 damage is conditional. I can spray and pray my stalker and Alaitoc and I don't even need a babysitter for it.
The disintegrator is basically the Drukhari autocannon and I've already seen lists with 12 of these things. Good luck with that.
I think 8 lascannons is total overkill at this point. Lascannons are ONLY necessary against IG in my view, as all the fieldable marine tanks are T7, and Xenos are rocking invulns for the most part now. I don't consider the repulsor or land raider a credible threat, and the repulsor dies readily enough to krak missiles/melta whatever.
Primark G wrote: Hellblasters have an effective range of 36" that’s pretty good IMO. Also if you’re not using LoS blocking terrain then shame on you.
Partially agree, but imo Space Marine units is only strong when they are in RF range, so in my eye, the effective range for Hellblasters are 21". Of course, if transported in a Repulsor, their effective range is 24" accounting the disembark distances, just make sure your enemy can't escape 24" away from the tank and you are awesome.
Well, GWjust confirmed how Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with SIA.
Coupled with the fact that the new DW chapter tactics allows rerolls of wounds of 1 against a specific battle role, I would say that Primaris gained a lot in effectiveness.
Sad that the autoboltstorm gaunlet is left out of the SIA, shooting twice with Aggressors with hellfire would have been fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pictures from the WC post.
Spoiler:
The Mission Tactics ability allows the Deathwatch to adjust their fighting style dependent on your opponent. At the start of the game, you’ll get to pick a Mission Tactic which corresponds to a Battlefield Role – Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, etc. – and your entire army will gain re-rolls of 1s to wound against that unit. Like Chapter Tactics, Mission Tactics applies to all your infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts, so you’ll be able to take advantage of a wide range of units.
Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with this ammunition, making Intercessors a very powerful choice. Kraken bolts, for example, help compensate for the lower AP of the auto bolt rifle, while a Reiver’s heavy bolt pistol firing vengeance rounds would have an AP of -3!
Automatically Appended Next Post: For reference to how Primaris are going to be affected by Deathwatch.
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CapRichard wrote: Well, GWjust confirmed how Auto bolt rifles, bolt carbines, stalker bolt rifles, standard bolt rifles and the absolvor bolt pistol can now be outfitted with SIA.
Coupled with the fact that the new DW chapter tactics allows rerolls of wounds of 1 against a specific battle role, I would say that Primaris gained a lot in effectiveness.
Sad that the autoboltstorm gaunlet is left out of the SIA, shooting twice with Aggressors with hellfire would have been fun.
I was also personally hoping for the Assault Bolters would get it as well, but it seems it only affects Intercessors and Reivers.
I'm not scared of max range hellblasters and my point about situational 2 damage was not addressed. It doesn't really matter if any particular poster agrees. Lots of players do agree and these kinds of weapons are becoming more common. Whicb hurts primaris. A lot.
I'm seriously considering swapping the DA half of my list for DW primaris. Stalker bolt pattern with SIA sounds really nice against all these invul save packing heavies I keep encountering.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not scared of max range hellblasters and my point about situational 2 damage was not addressed. It doesn't really matter if any particular poster agrees. Lots of players do agree and these kinds of weapons are becoming more common. Whicb hurts primaris. A lot.
Yeah, okay. Your point won't be addressed because the premise is false and you contradict yourself in the first sentence. Kind of difficult to argue against that - you've managed to gish gallup your way to a point, though, so that's something at least.
Disintegrators are certainly a problem. Autocannons much less so. A ravager firing at primris marines in the open kills 2.22 of them, and a stalker kills 1 - though it's better against inceptors.
Stalkers are a legitimately good pick vs dark eldar and necrons, for sure. I'd expect to see more of them, but it's not a huge worry.
Plasma isn't brilliant against dark eldar, but it's far from useless. Range is an issue, but fortunately the DE often want to come fairly close. You can still do really serious damage to them even at long range, because their planes are made out of nothing.
I nearly always overcharge plasma, except if there's a negative hit modifier in play. I sometimes use wisdom of the ancients to give me rerolls of 1, sometimes my captain, and sometimes if I really have to I just risk it.
Mandragola wrote: Disintegrators are certainly a problem. Autocannons much less so. A ravager firing at primris marines in the open kills 2.22 of them, and a stalker kills 1 - though it's better against inceptors.
Stalkers are a legitimately good pick vs dark eldar and necrons, for sure. I'd expect to see more of them, but it's not a huge worry.
Plasma isn't brilliant against dark eldar, but it's far from useless. Range is an issue, but fortunately the DE often want to come fairly close. You can still do really serious damage to them even at long range, because their planes are made out of nothing.
I nearly always overcharge plasma, except if there's a negative hit modifier in play. I sometimes use wisdom of the ancients to give me rerolls of 1, sometimes my captain, and sometimes if I really have to I just risk it.
Realize that Drukhari can hand out a -1 to hit willy nilly to all kinds of targets. Makes plasma very sad. Especially expensive marine plasma.
Also realize that autocannon damage doesn't fall off at all against gravis armor, which are the more expensive primaris models for the most part. If gravis gave +1 W, I'd agree with you a bit more on this point.
Drukhari planes have a -1 to be hit and a 5++ for starters, and can have a 6+ FNP and an additional -1 to be hit. Plasma is not a good choice against them.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not scared of max range hellblasters and my point about situational 2 damage was not addressed. It doesn't really matter if any particular poster agrees. Lots of players do agree and these kinds of weapons are becoming more common. Whicb hurts primaris. A lot.
Yeah, okay. Your point won't be addressed because the premise is false and you contradict yourself in the first sentence. Kind of difficult to argue against that - you've managed to gish gallup your way to a point, though, so that's something at least.
It's false that plasma is only 2 damage conditionally? What contradiction?
Dark eldar have always been SM killers... sounds like just about everything is now. DE flyers are paper aeroplanes... Inceptors can take them down in one hail just through volume of shots and do not need to supercharge if running exterminators.
They're surprisingly hard to kill, actually. T6 5++ -1 to be hit with possible 6+ FNP and additional -1 to be hit is no joke. The best method is melee, really.
Dark Eldar have always been thought of as Sm killers... that is a serious troll question in my opinion. Bolt rifles shred pretty much all Dark Eldar vehicles. A stiff breeze will drop them likely enough.
"Dark Eldar have always been thought of as Sm killers... that is a serious troll question in my opinion."
How long have you played this game? I was playing when DE were brand new. They were NOT always thought of as marine killers. You're thinking regular Eldar.
" Bolt rifles shred pretty much all Dark Eldar vehicles."
Primaris marines can't afford to wound on 5+. Bolt rifles are one of the worst weapons for downing Raiders.
No Dark Eldar have always been thought of as SM killers since their release in third edition. Google it. Bolters are Great due to weight of fire... much easier than wasting tanking busting firepower going for a single shot.
This is true. You aren't going to take out many DE planes with bolt rifles. 5 intercessors rapid firing does about 1.5 wounds.
It might be worth it if there's a damaged tank just about to die, but really you want to kill the plane with something else and have the intercessors shoot the little skinny guys who fall out. They make a bit of a mess of DE warriors in a shoot out and/or assault.
I find gravis marines a bit of a disappointment. They are only a tiny bit tougher than normal marines really. Point for point, intercessors seriously out perform aggressors in melee against most enemy infantry. I quite like dakka inceptors, but the FAQ has made them a lot worse.
Mixed Primaris Squads like the other kill teams, with buffs thrown out for everybody. Intercessors and Reivers get SIA, Reivers provide Terror Troops, and Aggressors provide a buff that removes the penalty to hit on assault weapons for advancing and heavy weapons for moving. Inceptors allow you to fall back and still shoot (no penalty). Hellblasters don't bring a buff, but being able to add plasma to a Primaris Intercessor squad is pretty freakin' sick.
Also a few suggestions on squad make-up. Kind of a fan of the use of Stalker Bolt Rifles now with an aggressor to remove that pesky movement issue.
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