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Yeah I think Tigurius is an awesome escort for it. If I'm running a counts as Ultramarines, I'm totally willing to pay an extra 25 points for what he brings to the table over a normal Librarian. 2 per turn, 3 spells, a +1 to deny, and reroll of failed psychic tests is nice. Heck he's almost too good to not take. I already like the UM chapter tactics, so I think I may end up using them more often than not. Their selection of special characters is of course a great added bonus. My previous games I've used the Ravenguard tactic, which is also good, but my opponents often favor in your face armies anyway so I don't get much use out of it.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Whichever you take though, Imperial Guard with 6 Primes, 6 LR tanks supported by Scions and Conscripts make a Repulsor or Raven look like a bit of a joke.

That's not even close to even on the points front lol

Not sure if people had clocked this. Primaris points costs and some (very slightly) modified rules for all non-codex chapters apart from GKs. https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads/K3ns3JDOGE2asjf/Primaris-week-4/IORF435R4_ENG_Primaris_Marines_Release_04_July_29th.pdf

There's a pretty strong case for running Azrael with repulsors. He's not all that expensive, pretty good in his own right, and hands out a 4++ to everyone nearby. It's a pretty serious set of bonuses. You could potentially have a darkshroud too, though I think the enemy might take it down with smaller-arms (autocannons etc) before turning the big guns on the repulsors.

Given how armies need to be more mobile these days, especially Marines with their rather limited range, what is the opinion about switching Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons to the Assault variant and play Reivers as well to cover more of the board and put more pressure easier?

I've made my lists less mobile. Far less mobile. There's no payoff for getting close.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Given how armies need to be more mobile these days, especially Marines with their rather limited range, what is the opinion about switching Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons to the Assault variant and play Reivers as well to cover more of the board and put more pressure easier?

Reivers are very good dispite the dakka hate. The assault version of weapons aren't worth it though. you can be plenty mobile with rapid fire as you suffer no penalty to hit and are rewarded with double damage when you get half range.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Given how armies need to be more mobile these days, especially Marines with their rather limited range, what is the opinion about switching Intercessor and Hellblaster weapons to the Assault variant and play Reivers as well to cover more of the board and put more pressure easier?

There is really no point ever taking the auto bolt rifle. Reivers have the exact same weapon (bizarrely with different name and model) and cost less. (They don't get ob sec, but that's not really worth the price.)

Sure, you suffer no penalty for Rapid Fire, but you will fire only one shot for quite a while. Also, Assault 2 with the -1 from running is equal to 1 shot with -1AP against 3+ and better than the Rapid Fire one against 4+ and worse.

Also, what about the Assault 2 Hellblasters, provided you have AT fire from other models? More shots and being able to put more pressure on backfield campers earlier seems worth it to me.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
but you will fire only one shot for quite a while.

While occasional cross fire and playing on hammer and anvil this might happen. but at 15" for most primarus weapons its going to be pretty rare to not get 2 taps.

argonak wrote:
I have not seen one in the flesh, could you post a pic comparing it to a rhino? Mine still hasn’t arrived.

Mandragola wrote:Its quite a bit bigger than a rhino - closer to a land raider really. It isn’t easy to hide.

It’s almost exactly the size of a LR. This is me seeing if it would fit into the KR slot for my LR:

It’s resting on the base/flight stand and the top of the hull is just about where the top of a LR would be. The turret, of course, will be higher then that. Slightly narrower due to the lack of sponsons, and a hair longer.

I've played Intercessor and hellblasters with the Assault weapons under White Scars rules. The Intercessors played meh to okay. The regular Bolt Rifle just gets more hits and wounds. The Hellblasters played good.

I gave up on them, as they still weren't quite fast enough to get where I wanted.

I could see assault Hellblasters maybe working as somewhat mobile MEQ hunters. In that role they could be effective without a captain babysitting them, as you wouldn't need to overcharge.

But the rapid fire ones are just so versatile, I'd probably realistically almost always take them regardless.

It is such a shame that when they gave Primaris these weapon options, thy bungled the rules so that the standard variant is clearly the best anyway. I guess they're not in any hurry to sell those multipart kits, as the Dark Imperium models are cheap and plentiful and come with the best guns...

duWhee wrote:
I've played Intercessor and hellblasters with the Assault weapons under White Scars rules. The Intercessors played meh to okay. The regular Bolt Rifle just gets more hits and wounds. The Hellblasters played good.

I gave up on them, as they still weren't quite fast enough to get where I wanted.

What if the Primaris got a flying landspeeder razorback cross?

M14", T7, W10, armed with an onlslaught cannon and Icarus Rocket Pod. Carries 6 Primaris Marines. Not open-topped. 90 points, +16 for the OGC and 6 for the rocket pod bringing it to 112 points.

What about that? Too cheap?

 argonak wrote:

duWhee wrote:
I've played Intercessor and hellblasters with the Assault weapons under White Scars rules. The Intercessors played meh to okay. The regular Bolt Rifle just gets more hits and wounds. The Hellblasters played good.

I gave up on them, as they still weren't quite fast enough to get where I wanted.

What if the Primaris got a flying landspeeder razorback cross?

M14", T7, W10, armed with an onlslaught cannon and Icarus Rocket Pod. Carries 6 Primaris Marines. Not open-topped. 90 points, +16 for the OGC and 6 for the rocket pod bringing it to 112 points.

What about that? Too cheap?

lol, in your dream man
To be all honest, I think your proposal rightfully priced it, and it is what Primaris Marines desperately want: a decent priced transport. However, just compare it to a landspeeder of around 111pts (heavy bolter and assault cannon version), your transport have 1 more toughness, around 4 more wounds, a slight reduction in fire power but can transport 6 Primaris Marines, for just 1 point more expensive? GW would not like that. Given the fact that most of the Marine units are overpriced in 8th edition, I guess GW would price your proposal at minimum 140pts.

The rise of the -1 to hit army-wide scheme basically ruins hellblasters. That's a serious problem.

I used Rapid Fire Hellblasters as a primary source of anti tank, but this backfires as they become a primary target and the rise of -1 hurts them. Now I use LCs on the Repulsor, Razorbacks and FW vehicles, so that Hellblasters can hunt other stuff. This is why I recon Assault 2 without overcharging has merrits.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
I used Rapid Fire Hellblasters as a primary source of anti tank, but this backfires as they become a primary target and the rise of -1 hurts them. Now I use LCs on the Repulsor, Razorbacks and FW vehicles, so that Hellblasters can hunt other stuff. This is why I recon Assault 2 without overcharging has merrits.

It provides great flexibility and volume of fire, if nothing else.

Tried this setup today and actually crushed an Eldar I previously lost to. The running allowed me to get around LOS blockers really fast and disable Dark Reapers really well all while scoring. The reason you take them is to have maximum output as soon as possible. Marines do not stay long, so maximize the time they are on the board. The alpha strike was immense.
I guess I really underestimated the power of Assault 2 guns and moving with heavy weapons to get a better vantage point.

Yeah honestly I think the assault hellblasters are the strongest. Against dark reapers that's obviously the case, as you even wound on a 2+.

Being able to get two shots at 24" range rather than 15" is a huge, huge improvement. It means you do it on turn one and from a much safer distance.

Mandragola wrote:
Yeah honestly I think the assault hellblasters are the strongest. Against dark reapers that's obviously the case, as you even wound on a 2+.

Being able to get two shots at 24" range rather than 15" is a huge, huge improvement. It means you do it on turn one and from a much safer distance.

It is pretty questionable advantage though. Against many preferred targets of the plasma, strength 8 shots are drastically better than strength 6 or 7 shots.

If paired with a lieutenant you are able to wound targets with tougness 4 more reliably when using the standard plasma

I always use the standard hellblaster gun because of the superior range does let you reach out to distant targets and the assault variant is only better in the 16-24 in range. While this is common its not enough to make me pay more points and lose a very important strength point for it. I mean yeah it does let you advance and shoot, but if you overcharge thats very dangerous and on top of that I rarely ever find myself advancing with them. Usually they find cover, sit and shoot. In my games they are too heavily focused to not camp cover and having the extra range lets them do this better.

The rapid fire one does clearly have advantages. It's what I've been using myself so far. I find that they can very often disembark from their repulsor and double tap things on turn 1, especially if I'm going second.

Assault hellblasters have great synergy with ravenguard CTs though. They want to keep some distance from the enemy, and are therefore very happy to trade a point of strength against getting a second shot.

It's annoying how bad the heavy ones are. One shot means less damage against any target and that -1 to hit if they move is incredibly punishing for a plasma weapon. And for some reason they are the most expensive. Shame, as the backpacks are cool I think.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
I always use the standard hellblaster gun because of the superior range does let you reach out to distant targets and the assault variant is only better in the 16-24 in range. While this is common its not enough to make me pay more points and lose a very important strength point for it. I mean yeah it does let you advance and shoot, but if you overcharge thats very dangerous and on top of that I rarely ever find myself advancing with them. Usually they find cover, sit and shoot. In my games they are too heavily focused to not camp cover and having the extra range lets them do this better.

You hunt different targets with the assault variant compared to the RF one. You're much more likely to be using them to move in and clear out dangerous back field infantry targets right from the beginning rather than overcharging on vehicles from range. Then they move around targeting tough multiwound infantry. That means you'll have to bring something else to put damage on vehicles because even though the assault guns will work in a pinch, they won't be the best source of AT. That's not to say the RF are the best at hunting tanks - they're good, but not the best. Either way, your opponent will focus them as if they are the best, so it's mostly irrelevant.

Which, in my experience, has resulted in the assault guys sticking around much much longer since they aren't the obvious primary target anymore, all while putting out more damage in the first turn than the RF ones were for me, then either being ignored a bit to deal with the big guns. If they do get focused, it's a blow, but not the huge impact it was when I was using the RF ones as part of a static gunline.

Lemondish wrote:

You hunt different targets with the assault variant compared to the RF one. You're much more likely to be using them to move in and clear out dangerous back field infantry targets right from the beginning rather than overcharging on vehicles from range. Then they move around targeting tough multiwound infantry. That means you'll have to bring something else to put damage on vehicles because even though the assault guns will work in a pinch, they won't be the best source of AT. That's not to say the RF are the best at hunting tanks - they're good, but not the best. Either way, your opponent will focus them as if they are the best, so it's mostly irrelevant.

But against what targets they're actually good against and are there enough such targets to warrant inclusion of this unit? I'm willing to be convinced as I'd like to have some variety on my lists, but S8 just seems too good to pass.

Which, in my experience, has resulted in the assault guys sticking around much much longer since they aren't the obvious primary target anymore, all while putting out more damage in the first turn than the RF ones were for me, then either being ignored a bit to deal with the big guns. If they do get focused, it's a blow, but not the huge impact it was when I was using the RF ones as part of a static gunline.

'They suck so much that the enemy doesn't bother to kill them' doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement to me...

 Crimson wrote:
I could see assault Hellblasters maybe working as somewhat mobile MEQ hunters. In that role they could be effective without a captain babysitting them, as you wouldn't need to overcharge.

But the rapid fire ones are just so versatile, I'd probably realistically almost always take them regardless.

It is such a shame that when they gave Primaris these weapon options, thy bungled the rules so that the standard variant is clearly the best anyway. I guess they're not in any hurry to sell those multipart kits, as the Dark Imperium models are cheap and plentiful and come with the best guns...

I got the 10 hellblaster box and use the heavy plasma on the model but I still play them as rapid fire.

 Crimson wrote:

But against what targets they're actually good against and are there enough such targets to warrant inclusion of this unit? I'm willing to be convinced as I'd like to have some variety on my lists, but S8 just seems too good to pass.

'They suck so much that the enemy doesn't bother to kill them' doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement to me...

Well, I'd find it hard taking you seriously with that comment - that clearly wasn't what I said.

Look at it this way - you put a lot of stock into Rapid Fire Hellblasters, that's clear, but their damage output is weaker outside of 15'' because of the nature of rapid fire weapons. Still nothing to scoff at, and if they can close within 15'', they'll double it. That's the true meaning of pain. But that also means that the perfect time to kill them is well before they get close enough when their damage is half of what it can be. It makes target priority easy. No question - Kill them before they can bring those RF blasters to bear on something valuable. The assault versions muddy the waters a little bit for your opponent as there is less of a time constraint there. They're going to bring their full damage potential to the forefront almost immediately, but it won't spike like it can with the rapid fire ones when they close in. They trade that for extra mobility. That has both a strategic and psychological benefit - the enemy won't expect them to be as dangerous as they actually are (just like you), but it also means those other targets worthy of their attention are now competing for their focus. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra tactical benefits - they have the ability to push deep towards the enemy's back line with that extra mobility. Of course, you'd want to avoid overcharging if you're going to advance, but the weapon's str and AP is enough to pressure the right targets - high toughness models, or ones in cover that need to be erased quickly. In the games I've played with both units, RF Hellblasters can carry games if they can get into double tap, but because of that they're going to attract a lot of attention early, so you either spend a boatload of points on protecting them with a Repulsor or you hide them in cover at range where their damage is neutered all game.

Lemondish wrote:

Look at it this way - you put a lot of stock into Rapid Fire Hellblasters, that's clear, but their damage output is weaker outside of 15'' because of the nature of rapid fire weapons. Still nothing to scoff at, and if they can close within 15'', they'll double it. That's the true meaning of pain. But that also means that the perfect time to kill them is well before they get close enough when their damage is half of what it can be. It makes target priority easy. No question - Kill them before they can bring those RF blasters to bear on something valuable. The assault versions muddy the waters a little bit for your opponent as there is less of a time constraint there. They're going to bring their full damage potential to the forefront almost immediately, but it won't spike like it can with the rapid fire ones when they close in. They trade that for extra mobility. That has both a strategic and psychological benefit - the enemy won't expect them to be as dangerous as they actually are (just like you), but it also means those other targets worthy of their attention are now competing for their focus. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra tactical benefits - they have the ability to push deep towards the enemy's back line with that extra mobility. Of course, you'd want to avoid overcharging if you're going to advance, but the weapon's str and AP is enough to pressure the right targets - high toughness models, or ones in cover that need to be erased quickly. In the games I've played with both units, RF Hellblasters can carry games if they can get into double tap, but because of that they're going to attract a lot of attention early, so you either spend a boatload of points on protecting them with a Repulsor or you hide them in cover at range where their damage is neutered all game.

Hmm... That is actually pretty decent analysis. I guess the worth of the assault guns highly depends on the prevalence of heavily armoured single wound models.

 Crimson wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Look at it this way - you put a lot of stock into Rapid Fire Hellblasters, that's clear, but their damage output is weaker outside of 15'' because of the nature of rapid fire weapons. Still nothing to scoff at, and if they can close within 15'', they'll double it. That's the true meaning of pain. But that also means that the perfect time to kill them is well before they get close enough when their damage is half of what it can be. It makes target priority easy. No question - Kill them before they can bring those RF blasters to bear on something valuable. The assault versions muddy the waters a little bit for your opponent as there is less of a time constraint there. They're going to bring their full damage potential to the forefront almost immediately, but it won't spike like it can with the rapid fire ones when they close in. They trade that for extra mobility. That has both a strategic and psychological benefit - the enemy won't expect them to be as dangerous as they actually are (just like you), but it also means those other targets worthy of their attention are now competing for their focus. That doesn't even take into consideration the extra tactical benefits - they have the ability to push deep towards the enemy's back line with that extra mobility. Of course, you'd want to avoid overcharging if you're going to advance, but the weapon's str and AP is enough to pressure the right targets - high toughness models, or ones in cover that need to be erased quickly. In the games I've played with both units, RF Hellblasters can carry games if they can get into double tap, but because of that they're going to attract a lot of attention early, so you either spend a boatload of points on protecting them with a Repulsor or you hide them in cover at range where their damage is neutered all game.

Hmm... That is actually pretty decent analysis. I guess the worth of the assault guns highly depends on the prevalence of heavily armoured single wound models.

That's definitely true, but I think it's important to mention that each weapon shines in different ways without there being a clear superior option, I feel. Not to mention they can still be overcharged for the extra damage when you don't need to advance.

Tried the Assault versions several times now. The alpha is definitely stronger. With the Guilliman bonus to run and the re-rolls it allowed me to seal games T1. The extra shot early on beats having a stronger weapon at 15". Conaidering that the Bolters are equal to the RF ones against 3+ even if they ran should make the point well enough. Plus, the increased mobility at the price of giving up full re-rols was worth it in many cases, though it still hard to justify not taking Guilliman.

A note on the Hellblasters. Though their Assault weapons are worse against tanks, it made them less of a threat, which was very welcome.