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Mandragola wrote:
If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.

Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.

Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.


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Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.

Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.

Bolt rifles are only better at 15'' when double tap gets involved. Intercessors with autobolters can provide their full damage potential at all times while maintaining the -1 to hit chapter tactic, which offers you more tactical flexibility. I'd say there's no clear cut winner, honestly. I've had success with both. You might wonder why not just take Reivers - well, Reivers aren't objective secured and I have better options to take for the points in the Elite slot.

Great point on the plasma scions. That's a good time to have bolt rifles since even if they try to drop 12.1'' away, you'll still be in rapid fire range next turn, and without double tap those scions aren't removing that unit.

For a 10-man squad w/4 plasma, and a tempestor prime for the order, you're looking at 198pts with no frills: it can expect to kill nearly 5 intercessors, if you include the hotshot.

So 200pts deepstriking and shooting plasma at 91pts of marines just about wipes the squad, and also loses two models from auspex if the marine player is CP happy. Looking at the maths, I'd say that's a pretty acceptable performance from the Primaris imo.

Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.

Well you could always intercept them. -1 to hit sure but hitting on 4s wounding on 3s on a small or big unit that may or may not be in rapid fire range because they sure will be.

edit: didnt realize the page scrolled.

but 10 man probably in RF, 20 shots, 10 hits, 6-7 wounds. at -1 ap assuming no cover saves would be 4ish dead guys. + or - depending on specific circumstances.

Note, if the Tempestus are shooting at an equal points amount of Intercessors (11 models), then the Intercessors will be left with around 7 or 8 models, because the Tempestus can expect to lose 5 models before they get to fire, from auspex array, probaly triggering another loss from morale... Ugly.


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Seeing that makes me think about ten-man intercessor squads seriously for the first time!

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.

Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.

Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.

Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.

Bolt rifles are only better at 15'' when double tap gets involved. Intercessors with autobolters can provide their full damage potential at all times while maintaining the -1 to hit chapter tactic, which offers you more tactical flexibility. I'd say there's no clear cut winner, honestly. I've had success with both. You might wonder why not just take Reivers - well, Reivers aren't objective secured and I have better options to take for the points in the Elite slot.

Bolt rifles double tap at 15" and Auto Bolt Rifles double-tap out to 18", but rifles can just plan shoot out to 30" and don't cost extra points. Even my close support intercessors have started taking standard bolt rifles just because of the point savings.

 grouchoben wrote:
Note, if the Tempestus are shooting at an equal points amount of Intercessors (11 models), then the Intercessors will be left with around 7 or 8 models, because the Tempestus can expect to lose 5 models before they get to fire, from auspex array, probaly triggering another loss from morale... Ugly.


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Seeing that makes me think about ten-man intercessor squads seriously for the first time!

They're not shooting equal points, though. And the IG player knows they are taking a slight loss on the deal. But they are pushing the enemy army back 9" or so on average against a list that sucks at moving and can't shoot worth a gak. Totally worth it. The bottom line to me is that the mere threat of overcharge plasma makes me balk on primaris.

I think the way I’d cut it would be intercessors with bolt rifles, and reivers with carbines if I wanted the assault option... which to be honest I don’t really.

A 10 man intercessor squad for auspex scan is interesting. Morale could be an issue.

By the way, scions don’t get to rapid fire their Laguna when they deep strike. They only have an 18” range, so they can’t rapid fire.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.

Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.

Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.

Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.

Bolt rifles are only better at 15'' when double tap gets involved. Intercessors with autobolters can provide their full damage potential at all times while maintaining the -1 to hit chapter tactic, which offers you more tactical flexibility. I'd say there's no clear cut winner, honestly. I've had success with both. You might wonder why not just take Reivers - well, Reivers aren't objective secured and I have better options to take for the points in the Elite slot.

Bolt rifles double tap at 15" and Auto Bolt Rifles double-tap out to 18", but rifles can just plan shoot out to 30" and don't cost extra points. Even my close support intercessors have started taking standard bolt rifles just because of the point savings.

Autobolters on Primaris are 24'' Assault 2, which gives you the incentive of being mobile from turn 1 by giving up 6'' of range. It's a bit more valuable for armies like RG because it means you're getting your full damage potential on that weapon while the mobility and speed maintains your chapter tactic. Like I said, though, it's tactical flexibility you're buying here for a unit who's primary job is to intercede. I like the auto bolter playstyle for being aggressive. But if you buy something far more valuable for the points you save in the rest of your list, then I'd say stick with the rifles.

Martel732 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Note, if the Tempestus are shooting at an equal points amount of Intercessors (11 models), then the Intercessors will be left with around 7 or 8 models, because the Tempestus can expect to lose 5 models before they get to fire, from auspex array, probaly triggering another loss from morale... Ugly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seeing that makes me think about ten-man intercessor squads seriously for the first time!

They're not shooting equal points, though. And the IG player knows they are taking a slight loss on the deal. But they are pushing the enemy army back 9" or so on average against a list that sucks at moving and can't shoot worth a gak. Totally worth it. The bottom line to me is that the mere threat of overcharge plasma makes me balk on primaris.

I've never been scared of overcharged plasma on Intercessors. Overcharged plasma always comes to me anyway, so my mobility is irrelevant. It's the long range autocannon equivalents that always hurt me the most.

Usually there's both because damage 2+ weapons are crazy cheap for the ig.

All you ever do is give testament to AM... they have taken quite a dip in the power curve. According to you they auto-trump SM but why run them when they are auto-trumped by other more powerful races now?

They only suffer in tournaments because of time limits. In my meta, we play to completion. Eldar and nids struggle vs ig with no artificial game ends. The firepower and durability of the ig is insane.

I play in several leagues and all games are played to completion. It is just not possible for competitive tournaments for slow players nor should it be IMO.

As it should be. But I've watched MANY bat reps, and that's how tournament goers are escaping the full wrath of the IG. IG turns take FOREVER. That doesn't help.

If an IG player is slow playing I’d immediately report them to a TO.

They are playing as fast as they can. But understand this:

Mortar team 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Wyvern 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Wyvern 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Wyvern 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Leman Russ 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, etc.

The very thing that makes them a nightmare to face kills them in timed play.

Martel732 wrote:
They are playing as fast as they can. But understand this:

Mortar team 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Wyvern 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Wyvern 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Wyvern 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Leman Russ 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, etc.

The very thing that makes them a nightmare to face kills them in timed play.

If only there was a dice app that sped all that up..at assault speed...

Also let it be known that I LOVE the concept of primaris. I'm just VERY disappointed by the crunch they've been assigned.

If units are shooting same target roll everything together. Anyways this is getting way off topic. I can imagine you with a Bassie beside your pillow at night.

Bottom line: I think IG are bad news for primaris. Primaris are really nice against lists that live at medium or short range or rely on mortal wounds. Long range multi wound is just such a terrible matchup, and they don't really have any way to mitigate that problem.

If you put that in your signature you dont have to keep repeating every other post.

My approach is to make an army that looks like it’s all primaris, but isn’t quite. So I put primaris guys driving my xiphon and stormraven, for example, and will do the same for my fire raptor. P

My “primaris” scouts are nearly done. I’m quite pleased with how they are coming out. It’s my first go at camo, and hasn’t come out perfectly, but looks ok I think.

Lookin good

Exalted.

That scout rocks!!!

Martel732 wrote:
They are playing as fast as they can. But understand this:

Mortar team 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Mortar team 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, opponent rolls to save, chooses losses

Wyvern 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Wyvern 2: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Wyvern 3: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, REROLLS to wound, oppoent saves, opponent chooses losses

Leman Russ 1: Rolls for shots, rerolls for catachan, rolls to hit, rolls to wound, etc.

The very thing that makes them a nightmare to face kills them in timed play.

Fast rolling makes this a small issue, it's the moving of massive amounts of models that seems to take forever.

That can't be it.. IG never moves

Rolling and re-rolling does take a long time. IG artillery that rerolls 1s to hit is a pain, even if all those mortars don’t really do anything to primaris in cover. My repulsors are a culprit here too to be honest, especially if my captain and lieutenant are around.

Glad you guys like the scouts

Really cool scouts!

In my mind scouts and the non-transport flyers are totally legit for a all Primaris army. Bobby G and Tigurius are exceptions depending on the strength of the other army.

Mandragola wrote:
Rolling and re-rolling does take a long time. IG artillery that rerolls 1s to hit is a pain, even if all those mortars don’t really do anything to primaris in cover. My repulsors are a culprit here too to be honest, especially if my captain and lieutenant are around.

Glad you guys like the scouts

I didn't get to basilisk and manticore phase in my post. And, yeah, that's a phase for IG. My favorite IG story: the manticore made a local cheesemonger RAEGQUIT because it wounded his FW nurgle demon on a 3+. Hilarious and sad at the same time. Yeah, your repulsors don't have a chance against them.

Martel732 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Rolling and re-rolling does take a long time. IG artillery that rerolls 1s to hit is a pain, even if all those mortars don’t really do anything to primaris in cover. My repulsors are a culprit here too to be honest, especially if my captain and lieutenant are around.

Glad you guys like the scouts

I didn't get to basilisk and manticore phase in my post. And, yeah, that's a phase for IG. My favorite IG story: the manticore made a local cheesemonger RAEGQUIT because it wounded his FW nurgle demon on a 3+. Hilarious and sad at the same time. Yeah, your repulsors don't have a chance against them.

No, I was saying it takes a long time to resolve the shooting of my two repulsors.

It's quite hard to calculate the average shots that a catachan basilisk will fire. I think it's slightly more than 4. Once you've hit, wounded and I've failed my save (or not) a basilisk averages out a little under 3 wounds per turn to a repulsor. A manticore is a bit better - around 4.4. That's with rerolls of 1s to hit, which Harker hands out. Between them, 3 basilisks and 3 manticores should take out a repulsor. That stuff costs about 805 points.

The problem the IG guy has is that I go first slightly more than 60% of the time. Between my two repulsors, fire raptor and hellblasters (if in range, which they might well be), I do a ton of damage to the manticores. And I also gun down a load of infantry at the same time with the small arms that covers my tanks. Maybe I have the fire raptor charge a tank or two, to further reduce the firepower coming back.

If my repulsors fire all their guns at a T7 3+ save tank, and are near my captain and lieutentant, they do 10.88 wounds, or 9.37 if they can't get within 18". I can improve that average by using a CP on a bad lascannon wound roll or something. These things have 11 wounds each, and only hit on a 6+ if they take 9 wounds. Likewise the fire raptor, if it fires all its guns at it, does 10.8 wounds - even without the aura buffs. So my first turn is pretty scary too.

The IG guy also has a problem with my fire raptor. It's the nastiest thing in my army for him but also the hardest to kill. Does he try and shoot it down while all his AT is still alive, but risk failing and leaving my repulsors to run amok, or does he ignore it?

My experience of fighting IG is that the person going first wins. Their tanks are dangerous but not hugely tough - including Leman Russ because lascannons don't care about T9. It really ruins their day if repulsors get into their lines because the IG tanks will hardly ever fire after that.

This is one of the reasons that IG don't tend to make a big splash at tournaments. They will sometimes maths people to death, but at other times they'll get swamped. For instance in my game against orks last weekend he cast da jump and got a charge off with 30 boyz, engaging a ton of my units in the consolidate move - and surrounding some so the boyz couldn't be shot. I recovered from that, by flying my tanks away and counter-charging with a load of Primaris guys to kill all the orks in melee. But for an IG guy I think that might well have been it for the game. Indeed I did lose to an IG guy, who had a shadowsword and 3 basilisks with Harker, because he went first, but it actually wasn't a big loss and I finished ahead of him in the end.