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Plasma/Fist is the best imo, with Gravis being a pretty woeful option. ... Or you can model a standard captain on a Primaris frame and get full access to what a Captain can be (Teeth of terra, storm shield, jumppack, etc). My cap is the only non-primaris unit I field, except dreads and the like.

 grouchoben wrote:
Plasma/Fist is the best imo, with Gravis being a pretty woeful option. ... Or you can model a standard captain on a Primaris frame and get full access to what a Captain can be (Teeth of terra, storm shield, jumppack, etc). My cap is the only non-primaris unit I field, except dreads and the like.

Wouldn't the normal Captain not be able to get in Primaris transports?

Yeah, he can't get in the repulsor, so your list goes up one drop. He can deepstrike to where he's need though, so there's no other restraint - which makes him great with plasceptors or RG Aggressors. And teeth of terra/jumppack/MC bolter is only 96pts, which is a lot better than any Primaris option, and cheaper than them all.

Sticking to the primaris theme, I use the gravis captain. Been playing around with the different chapter tactics. Salamanders relic (I think) for +1 T and then might of heroes for T7 on the captain is funny. I wish it allowed more customization. My captain almost always plays goal keeper, zoning out any assaulters.

Yeah I know a lot of people don't like the gravis models but I love them all. They look like bosses - so I wish the Gravis Cap was worth a damn! That +1T really isn't worth 30-odd points and -1", and he suffers, as you say, from a really stiff and un-optimised loadout. One day, he'll get a fresh lease of life, and will be a really fun beatstick...

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I don't know if it's been mentioned here, but which is the best Captain choice to take? Gravis, plasma/fist, or the rifle Captain?

Have you considered taking a Primaris Lieutenant? Seriously the +1 to wound seems better that the tohit rerolls (especially for DA) and they are dirt cheap compared to a captain.

I like my plasma pistol and power fist guy. He isn’t too expensive and can hit really hard with the fist of vengeance – though that’s only relevant if you play crimson fists.

Otherwise the rifle guy is fine if you just want him to sit back and give out auras, especially if he has storm of fire.

The gravis guy is the best. It’s just a bit irritating that you have to buy him two close combat weapons, when he’ll hardly ever use his master crafted power sword. And it’s also annoying that the normal captain’s sword can’t be master crafted! Still, if you have the points to spare he’s decent. T5 is a pretty big improvement in his durability.

I find that my Cap normally attracts a lot of attention when he engages, and that his invuln makes a bigger difference than whether he's T4 or T5. That and his slower speed and bigger transport needs - and his +30pts - means he never sees the table for me anymore. Am I missing something Mandragola? Sell me on him, as I love his model!

My gravis captain usually has the sanctic halo when in my Ultramarine force with gman. The guy had celestine charge my front line. Gman rolls up and knocks her into the ground. She pops up behind my army to assassinate my gravis captain who is buffing nearby units and hiding from a vindicare. I make my gravis captain my warlord so I am less reluctant to fling gman at things. Anyways, she charges, 1 hit gets through. He hits her and does 6 damage in that round, killing her on my turn. Not bad as a backfield defender.

I guess so - but a teeth of terra barebones cap would have done pretty well in that match up too, at nearly half the price. I'd take 4+1d3 attacks at S5 -2 2D against celestine over 5 S8 -3 1d3 at -1 to hit any day of the week.

Expected damage vs Celestine, from the gravis with powerfist: 3.2. Expected damage from captain barebones: 4.

Primaris in Gravis is so much better in my opinion... more wounds and more T. And I have to tell you the AP for Teeth is really bad against anything with a good armor save... pretty much a butter knife against 2+ and 3+.

 Primark G wrote:
Primaris in Gravis is so much better in my opinion... more wounds and more T. And I have to tell you the AP for Teeth is really bad against anything with a good armor save... pretty much a butter knife against 2+ and 3+.

Interesting. I'm finding that strenght and wounds are more valuable than Ap beyond -2. So many models these days seem to rock a 4++ that high AP is kind of wasted.

I do think that the Gravis guy is strictly the best one. That's not the same as saying he's the most efficient. He's tough and he has a lot of wounds, but he pays for a sword that he's almost certainly never going to use. He apparently does this just to bully the normal primaris captain, who has to make do with an ordinary power sword.

My two favorite Primaris Captains are the Gravis and power fist with plasma pistol. For the Gravis variant I’d probably take the 2+ armor relic... versus AP1 it’s better than the Iron Halo and the same versus AP2.

Not disputing the teeth of terra captain being very good, but if we are looking at what the gravis captain can do, then I think we are underselling it a bit. I actually used the power sword in my above example. I have never been disappointed in having him.

Ok, but the power sword is mathematically worse than the fist against pretty much everything. They are equal against T3 and the sword is better against T2, but you want to use the fist against anything else (until T16 I guess). If fighting 2 wound T3 models it would make sense to use the sword. If you can boost the guy's strength, such as with might of heroes, that changes things quite a bit as the sword becomes probably the best option vs T4.

So basically it's annoying to pay 10 points for a weapon that you'll hardly ever use.

Mandragola wrote:
Ok, but the power sword is mathematically worse than the fist against pretty much everything. They are equal against T3 and the sword is better against T2, but you want to use the fist against anything else (until T16 I guess). If fighting 2 wound T3 models it would make sense to use the sword. If you can boost the guy's strength, such as with might of heroes, that changes things quite a bit as the sword becomes probably the best option vs T4.

So basically it's annoying to pay 10 points for a weapon that you'll hardly ever use.

Yeah, pretty much agree, and Powerfist still pulls ahead of the sword against T2 Nurglings

 Primark G wrote:
Primaris in Gravis is so much better in my opinion... more wounds and more T. And I have to tell you the AP for Teeth is really bad against anything with a good armor save... pretty much a butter knife against 2+ and 3+.

I dont understand what you mean about -2 being terrible. It's the sweet spot. I mean, gravis does have +1 w&t. That's not nothing. And he's better against tanks and the like. But terra cap has more attacks, no minus to hit, better mobility and is so much cheaper it's not funny. He also has a 15pt jumppack option which is solid gold on him. And a stormshield if you want him tanky. Even with both he's still 20pts cheaper.

It's not just terra cap though - primaris cap with fist and plasma is almost the same model, except -1" move and +1 T. For 30pts.

To me the sweet spot is AP3 it wrecks 2-3+ armor and I’m okay with d3 damage the average is the same as straight 2.

I'd like to discuss other's experiences with not bringing scouts in an all primaris army. I played a guy who brought 76 blood letters, 30 plague bearers, 18 flamers with the supporting characters and then nurglings and brimstones for objectives. The only non primaris in my army was my sicaran, as I literally lacked the primaris models to get to 2k, and gman who I make an exception for. His list should have been titled Alpha Strike, the Army. He was going to reserve pretty much everything and drop it on me with 3d6 charge on multiple bloodletter units. Flamers to kill chaff. I was worried to be honest, but I had a few aces up my sleeve. Aggressors, null zone, and the redemptor as well as his poor leadership generally. My deployment was as such:



He drops his flamers in turn 1 and tries to kill my intercessor screens, but the durability of the primaris shows here. He had flickering flame and another buff on one unit as well. He kills most of the center unit and only 1 or 2 from the other units. 2 squads of bloodletters and the characters deep strike in the building on the first floor where I can't see them(we doing ITC missions). My retaliation kills all the flamers. I push a little further to spread my dz out. This turn he comes at me with 3 bloodletter squads and the plague bearer squad, all make their charges. My brave intercessors die and a hellblaster unit goes too. But my turn flips the game as I am able to kill all 4 units. The Ultramarine retreat and shoot is key here. I am able to push back after this and slowly take the board.

Now I understand scouts are great for what they offer, but with the limited model range primaris have, has anyone else had success against alpha strike armies while trying to stick to the pure primaris.

Yes, basically. Same story as you had there. The difference between scout screens and intercessors is that intercessors tend to actually survive a turn or two. But scouts get to extend the screen outwards, which is very useful. They can attack shooting armies in ways intercessors can’t really.

I take a scout unit that I’ve converted out of reiver bodies, intercessor arms and scout squad gubbins. I shaved back the armour on the arms and legs, leaving the reiver boots, straps and pouches. I’ve also put primaris pilots in my planes. They have come out ok I think.

@ Bonachinonin- I pretty do the same thing. It works really good but I think most people wouldn't believe it if you just told them.

I have one scout squad but I use it as bait not a screen.

Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.

If I ran AM as a Detachment it would be all Scions and Taurox... money.

I'd just like to chip in with a couple of questions, I've always used Tactical Marines but only the last week or so ventured into Primaris. So far I have a squad of Intercessors and Reivers and was wondering.

1: What are the best weapons to have on both units? I've built them with a bit of a mix because I like the look of them, but I'm thinking the standard Bolt Rifles on the Intercessors and Knives on the Reivers.

2: With the Reivers, is it best to spend 20pts on Grapples or 1CP on the RG strategem to get them close?

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'd just like to chip in with a couple of questions, I've always used Tactical Marines but only the last week or so ventured into Primaris. So far I have a squad of Intercessors and Reivers and was wondering.

1: What are the best weapons to have on both units? I've built them with a bit of a mix because I like the look of them, but I'm thinking the standard Bolt Rifles on the Intercessors and Knives on the Reivers.

2: With the Reivers, is it best to spend 20pts on Grapples or 1CP on the RG strategem to get them close?

For me, I will always plan on spending the CP to Raven Guard the Reivers in. Sure, if you don’t get first turn you have to be more defensive, but, if they are there supporting other assault units in the first turn, their ability to deny overwatch comes in handy. And then, if they are that close, they might as well get the extra attacks from the Knife.

If I wasn’t running Raven Guard though, I’d prob always pay for the deep striking options, and then -maybe- consider the Carbine… But, at -1 AP, I’d still probably end up using the pistol more than the Carbine.

If I was playing ravenguard I’d use intercessors with bolt rifles, not reivers at all. Reivers are mainly good because of their deployment options, which ravenguard kind of beat anyway.

Bolt rifles are pretty clearly the best option for intercessors. If you like auto rifles then maybe do take reivers - who are identical (and have some minor bonuses) but cheaper.

Of course, ravenguard are best off using SftS on aggressors and hellblasters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Sometimes, intercessor screens are okay. But then triple plasma scions come knocking. It gets ugly. Fast.

Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire.

"Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire."

They don't have to get their points back, first of all. This is the IG we're talking about. They can afford a couple of unfavorable exchanges vs marines. Several, actually.

Auspex scan won't kill the plasma guns, which is all that really matters. And don't forget the scion strike is also backed up by battle cannons, manticores, etc. Your screen is dead, you are pushed 9" back, and you are playing a slow ass army. IG probably won maelstrom or the maelstrom component of ITC right there.

RG Intercessors are a really tough troop choice. I always run at least 2 squads in my marine lists. -1ap is a big deal compared to normal bolters; they're suprisingly solid in CC; the grenade launcher is sometimes handy at long-range punts, and in cover they're 2+ at -1 to hit with 2 wounds. Their natural enemy is overcharged plasma, so the -1 to hit synergises with them ever so well, as noone in their right minds is going to overcharge at -1 to hit just to wipe a squad of intercessors.

The best way to use them is to put them somewhere that your opponent can't ignore them, like at a choke point or holding an objective, otherwise they should and will be ignored, as they're too much hassle to bother with. Use them to *intercede*!

Their basic rifles are solid. Assault are meh but I could see a case for a single unit to run and gun; stalkers are a bit dissappointing.

Reivers are the weakest unit in the Primairis lineup as they stand. They desperately need some AP, as they just bounce off anything above chaff. I like them with grapples for shenanigans, as I'm loathe to spend a CP on them when I have Aggressors begging to be started up in my opponent's face.

(I know you didn't ask about them but Agressors are amazing. Their guns clear chaff so well, and their fists are great against higher value targets.)

Martel732 wrote:
"Plasma scions don’t get their points back deep striking against intercessors. An intercessor squad won’t be wiped by a scion squad, and can use auspex scan to kill half the scions before they fire."

They don't have to get their points back, first of all. This is the IG we're talking about. They can afford a couple of unfavorable exchanges vs marines. Several, actually.

Auspex scan won't kill the plasma guns, which is all that really matters. And don't forget the scion strike is also backed up by battle cannons, manticores, etc. Your screen is dead, you are pushed 9" back, and you are playing a slow ass army. IG probably won maelstrom or the maelstrom component of ITC right there.

Right, but you said things get ugly for intercessors when triple plasma scions come knocking. My point is that isn't particularly accurate.

If the scions come down and kill the screens, then the screens have done their job. The purpose of screens is to stop the scions, and stuff like them, from shooting my valuable stuff. If the IG guy also wants to fire battlecannons and manticores at them then that's cool too.

Obviously there's other stuff in the IG army. Guess what? there's also other stuff in the marine army.

Also why won't auspex scan kill plasma guns? Are you talking about troop scion units with 2 plasma guns per squad? I thought you meant command squads with 4.

Movement and maelstrom is indeed an issue for Primaris. That's one of the reasons why SftS is so good, and having something to deep strike is so valuable. But on the other hand kill points are a nightmare for IG, so my experience is that they might pull ahead on maelstrom but they'll fall back on kill points.

I never play standard kill points. Only PL-based kill points. Yes, raven guard makes everything better for sure.

I was thinking 10 man scions with 4 plasma guns because i've been seeing that more lately.

Another point i guess is that against primaris, ig are in no rush so they can be greedy and take out the forward elements to game against maelstrom. Primaris can't hurt ig in the shooting phase much outside aggressors.