I like how now with DW we can build.... "tactical squads with primaris".
The special weapon and heavy weapons lot are taken by the Hellblasters, the heavy melee specialist by the Aggressor with its fists and so on.
I also wonder what profile will they use. The Primaris Sergeants whould be stand in for "veterans" so maybe all DW Primaris will get 3 attack base? Nah, onle can only wish
I think it might be good to mix an aggressor with assault hellblasters. It doesn't look like it benefits rapid fire weapons at all though, so I suppose it's going to be best to use auto bolt rifles.
The occasional reiver makes sense, and is actually a good way to get a cheaper, better intercessor with auto bolt rifle.
I'm not sure whether to go with plasma or dakka inceptors. Plasma combos well with aggressors, but if he blows up you lose your ability to fall back and shoot.
A concern I have is that the squads all seem to be based on 5 intercessors. That's not a bad thing as such, but it does mean units could get big, and expensive, pretty easily. On the other hand, all the other guys really benefit from having the intercessors there to catch bullets for them, and the intercessors themselves are vastly improved by SIA. If those auto bolt rifles get to spit out hellfire, rerolling 1s to wound a lot of the time, things will be seriously hurt.
Primark G wrote: I believe you don't have to take five Intercessors.
You might not have to, but the kill teams in the preview all have at least 5 intercessors.
Wasn't that the system in the old book too? You got 5 vets and then added other guys. I'm curious to see how many other guys you're allowed, as some examples use more than one of a particular type of guy.
Anyway I can see intercessors with SIA being pretty great, so having to take some doesn't look like being a huge hardship. Depending on their price they might actually be spammable, and a battalion of them could easily be a solid choice. You'd need AT from somewhere, but not a lot else.
Primark G wrote: I believe you don't have to take five Intercessors.
You might not have to, but the kill teams in the preview all have at least 5 intercessors.
Wasn't that the system in the old book too? You got 5 vets and then added other guys. I'm curious to see how many other guys you're allowed, as some examples use more than one of a particular type of guy.
Anyway I can see intercessors with SIA being pretty great, so having to take some doesn't look like being a huge hardship. Depending on their price they might actually be spammable, and a battalion of them could easily be a solid choice. You'd need AT from somewhere, but not a lot else.
Yeah, you start with 5 highly customizable vets, one of which could be a Black Shield and the other a Sgt.
Fortis Kill Teams are best thought of as ways to make your Intercessor squads way more killy.
From today's Warhammer Live Stream about the Deathwatch codex:
Primaris can not ride in a Corvus Blackstar, Repulsers are in the Codex though.
Intercessors are only 18 points a piece, but the Stalker Bolt Rifle is up to 3 points. They didn't mention regular Bolt Rifles.
I feel like if the points are the same or only 1 more Deathwatch now has the strictly better Primaris army thanks to Special Ammunition and all the +1/reroll 1 to wound strats.
Malkyr wrote: From today's Warhammer Live Stream about the Deathwatch codex:
Primaris can not ride in a Corvus Blackstar, Repulsers are in the Codex though.
Intercessors are only 18 points a piece, but the Stalker Bolt Rifle is up to 3 points. They didn't mention regular Bolt Rifles.
I feel like if the points are the same or only 1 more Deathwatch now has the strictly better Primaris army thanks to Special Ammunition and all the +1/reroll 1 to wound strats.
Well on the bright side they made it to where I won't be spending money on the Corvus so at least there is that!
Kinda ticked that Primaris won't be able to take the blackstar. It was a dumb piece of legacy ruling in the first place and now they are doubling down on it.
I think a battalion of death watch might be a legitimately good detachment now. I'm thinking assault bolters, with an aggressor and maybe an inceptor in each squad. Even some assault hellblasters, potentially.
20 points for an inceptor with an assault bolter and specialist ammo isn't really that much. And you never know, they might get access to some decent relics or something.
You do end up with large expensive squads, which is awkward. It does mean you can have quite a lot of guys though. It's going to be pretty interesting. Shame if everyone just plays death watch marines now - which seems a distinct possibility.
Mandragola wrote: I think a battalion of death watch might be a legitimately good detachment now. I'm thinking assault bolters, with an aggressor and maybe an inceptor in each squad. Even some assault hellblasters, potentially.
20 points for an inceptor with an assault bolter and specialist ammo isn't really that much. And you never know, they might get access to some decent relics or something.
You do end up with large expensive squads, which is awkward. It does mean you can have quite a lot of guys though. It's going to be pretty interesting. Shame if everyone just plays death watch marines now - which seems a distinct possibility.
Assault bolters aren't on the list of SIA weapons according to the screenshot on BOLS
Mandragola wrote: I think a battalion of death watch might be a legitimately good detachment now. I'm thinking assault bolters, with an aggressor and maybe an inceptor in each squad. Even some assault hellblasters, potentially.
20 points for an inceptor with an assault bolter and specialist ammo isn't really that much. And you never know, they might get access to some decent relics or something.
You do end up with large expensive squads, which is awkward. It does mean you can have quite a lot of guys though. It's going to be pretty interesting. Shame if everyone just plays death watch marines now - which seems a distinct possibility.
Assault bolters aren't on the list of SIA weapons according to the screenshot on BOLS
They are called auto bolt rifles. Second on the list, and bolt carbines (identical guns for reivers) are second. The master-crafted versions that lieutenants and captains have are also on the list.
There might be something to be said for a vanguard detachment of reivers instead of a battalion of intercessors. One less HQ to take, and reivers are better intercessors for 1 ppm less. But you can't then mix things up in kill teams that way, and obviously you get 4 fewer CPs. It would give you some flexibility in what you took as well, so you might have dreadnoughts or something instead of reivers, if you didn't want so many infantry.
Intercessors are probably the best option though. I think that the really big thing you get from death watch is the option to take troops that are actually quite dangerous - which is very unusual for a marine army. You might well want to bring 30+ of these guys, and they'd form the core of a decent army I think.
Mandragola wrote: I think a battalion of death watch might be a legitimately good detachment now. I'm thinking assault bolters, with an aggressor and maybe an inceptor in each squad. Even some assault hellblasters, potentially.
20 points for an inceptor with an assault bolter and specialist ammo isn't really that much. And you never know, they might get access to some decent relics or something.
You do end up with large expensive squads, which is awkward. It does mean you can have quite a lot of guys though. It's going to be pretty interesting. Shame if everyone just plays death watch marines now - which seems a distinct possibility.
Assault bolters aren't on the list of SIA weapons according to the screenshot on BOLS
They are called auto bolt rifles. Second on the list, and bolt carbines (identical guns for reivers) are second. The master-crafted versions that lieutenants and captains have are also on the list.
There might be something to be said for a vanguard detachment of reivers instead of a battalion of intercessors. One less HQ to take, and reivers are better intercessors for 1 ppm less. But you can't then mix things up in kill teams that way, and obviously you get 4 fewer CPs. It would give you some flexibility in what you took as well, so you might have dreadnoughts or something instead of reivers, if you didn't want so many infantry.
Intercessors are probably the best option though. I think that the really big thing you get from death watch is the option to take troops that are actually quite dangerous - which is very unusual for a marine army. You might well want to bring 30+ of these guys, and they'd form the core of a decent army I think.
No, auto bolt rifles are carried by Intercessors. Inceptors and Aggressors do not get SIA, because they carry different weapons, which is what I was referring to in the comment I quoted.
Malkyr wrote: From today's Warhammer Live Stream about the Deathwatch codex:
Primaris can not ride in a Corvus Blackstar, Repulsers are in the Codex though.
Intercessors are only 18 points a piece, but the Stalker Bolt Rifle is up to 3 points. They didn't mention regular Bolt Rifles.
I feel like if the points are the same or only 1 more Deathwatch now has the strictly better Primaris army thanks to Special Ammunition and all the +1/reroll 1 to wound strats.
Mandragola wrote: I think a battalion of death watch might be a legitimately good detachment now. I'm thinking assault bolters, with an aggressor and maybe an inceptor in each squad. Even some assault hellblasters, potentially.
20 points for an inceptor with an assault bolter and specialist ammo isn't really that much. And you never know, they might get access to some decent relics or something.
You do end up with large expensive squads, which is awkward. It does mean you can have quite a lot of guys though. It's going to be pretty interesting. Shame if everyone just plays death watch marines now - which seems a distinct possibility.
Assault bolters aren't on the list of SIA weapons according to the screenshot on BOLS
They are called auto bolt rifles. Second on the list, and bolt carbines (identical guns for reivers) are second. The master-crafted versions that lieutenants and captains have are also on the list.
There might be something to be said for a vanguard detachment of reivers instead of a battalion of intercessors. One less HQ to take, and reivers are better intercessors for 1 ppm less. But you can't then mix things up in kill teams that way, and obviously you get 4 fewer CPs. It would give you some flexibility in what you took as well, so you might have dreadnoughts or something instead of reivers, if you didn't want so many infantry.
Intercessors are probably the best option though. I think that the really big thing you get from death watch is the option to take troops that are actually quite dangerous - which is very unusual for a marine army. You might well want to bring 30+ of these guys, and they'd form the core of a decent army I think.
No, auto bolt rifles are carried by Intercessors. Inceptors and Aggressors do not get SIA, because they carry different weapons, which is what I was referring to in the comment I quoted.
You're right. I meant to talk about intercessors too, but wrote inceptors. Not sure if it was autocorrect or just a brain fart that caused that. I know inceptors don’t get special ammo - and cost 45 points rather than 20. My bad sorry.
To be clear, I think a battalion of intercessors with auto bolt rifles would be good. I probably wouldn’t add other guys to the squads - I’d just have lots of them. Paying 45 points to give a 100 point unit the ability to fall back and shoot doesn’t seem worth it.
Reivers might be good, essentially as a way to get more of the same. Reivers are identical to intercessors, but have a few little bonuses and cost a point less.
Whether or not to add hellblasters is a harder question. It might be harder to get all of them in a reroll bubble if they are spread through loads of squads - though otherwise it’s a good thing.
Another thing in favour of deathwatch over normal marines is that they do actually get a chapter tactics equivalent, in their reroll 1s to wound thing. So SIA is a bonus on top of that - at the princely sum of 1ppm.
Or for 2ppm you can get a SIA storm bolter. That’s going to force a reassessment of bikes, terminators and maybe even normal deathwatch vets. They would still be glass cannons compared to intercessors, and more points apparently, but the extra shots would be great.
I too think Reivers are finally going to be really nice, when in DW. They've been utterly uninspiring up til now, but that AP on the SIA totally changes the unit. Grapple Reivers with SIA are going to be legit.
I think bolt carbines might be the way to go actually. They get SIA, as do their heavy bolt pistols. It gives you a ton of options. 30” assault 2 with kraken if you need it, for example.
The standard bolt rifle intercessor also looks really good. Vengeance rounds doing ap-3 at 12”, kraken for -2 at 18”, hellfire for tough or unarmoured things. They look like they are going to be great.
Does anyone else feel the first codex pains with vanilla primaris marines? The lack of usable stratagems or relics is really starting to become noticeable now that more armies have their codex, and it's going to become even more apparent since battalions generate more CPs. I normally run Chapter Master since I really don't lose much by doing so, and I'll usually get a couple good Bolter Drills off with a squad of inceptors. Other than that, the reroll strat is really all there is, and space marines reroll almost everything anyway. Granted, I think it's fine that not all armies lean on their stratagems as much as Eldar, but we don't even really have situational stratagems other than Auspex Scan.
Just curious about how everyone else felt and what you guys are spending your CPs on.
DraxiusII wrote: Does anyone else feel the first codex pains with vanilla primaris marines? The lack of usable stratagems or relics is really starting to become noticeable now that more armies have their codex, and it's going to become even more apparent since battalions generate more CPs. I normally run Chapter Master since I really don't lose much by doing so, and I'll usually get a couple good Bolter Drills off with a squad of inceptors. Other than that, the reroll strat is really all there is, and space marines reroll almost everything anyway. Granted, I think it's fine that not all armies lean on their stratagems as much as Eldar, but we don't even really have situational stratagems other than Auspex Scan.
Just curious about how everyone else felt and what you guys are spending your CPs on.
I feel like Codex: SM came out with really strong chapter tactics and relics, but strategems that were soon passed out to almost every other faction in the game. That being said, if its true that DW primaris are almost the same cost as Codex:SM primaris there really won't be a reason to not switch.
DraxiusII wrote: Does anyone else feel the first codex pains with vanilla primaris marines? The lack of usable stratagems or relics is really starting to become noticeable now that more armies have their codex, and it's going to become even more apparent since battalions generate more CPs. I normally run Chapter Master since I really don't lose much by doing so, and I'll usually get a couple good Bolter Drills off with a squad of inceptors. Other than that, the reroll strat is really all there is, and space marines reroll almost everything anyway. Granted, I think it's fine that not all armies lean on their stratagems as much as Eldar, but we don't even really have situational stratagems other than Auspex Scan.
Just curious about how everyone else felt and what you guys are spending your CPs on.
I feel like Codex: SM came out with really strong chapter tactics and relics, but strategems that were soon passed out to almost every other faction in the game. That being said, if its true that DW primaris are almost the same cost as Codex:SM primaris there really won't be a reason to not switch.
That's really my point I suppose. I'm willing to run dark blue deathwatch if they really turn out to be that much better (which is how things are starting to look), it's just a shame that primaris got so little from the marine codex by comparison.
It is just crazy how much better DW are for primaris. There is no way vanilla primaris can compete with DW primaris. Well count-as DW it is then I guess...
Martel732 wrote: It took gw a while to figure out that intercessors are simply ignored every battle.
I keep hearing this juxtaposed alongside complaints that they die super quick because everybody has a million 2 damage weapons. I love the extremes.
Crimson wrote: It is just crazy how much better DW are for primaris. There is no way vanilla primaris can compete with DW primaris. Well count-as DW it is then I guess...
I think it's important to clarify this statement to mean mostly Intercessors and Reivers. They're clearly better in all ways. But Hellblasters, Aggressors, and Inceptors only gain the Mission Tactics component, which is achievable in every SM army using a LT while also providing a different chapter tactic. Those Primaris units end up functionally the same.
Sure, they do get the opportunity to serve as troops in kill teams, which is great for the CP, flexibility, and ablative wounds, but regular SM armies have benefits to offset that, like not having problems filling out troops slots thanks to scouts.
Likewise, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Repulsors don't really gain much from being DW over vanilla. The real winners here are Intercessors, the special characters with guns, and Reivers. I wouldn't say that counts as being best for ALL Primaris.
Martel732 wrote: It took gw a while to figure out that intercessors are simply ignored every battle.
I keep hearing this juxtaposed alongside complaints that they die super quick because everybody has a million 2 damage weapons. I love the extremes.
Martel won't be happy until they get GW to wring out every last buff they can get for BA. Why their chosen method is complaining on DakkaDakka, I never know. I assume Martel keeps a similar campaign going on GW's facebook/email.
Intercessors are nice, but it's hard to say if they are costed properly when their direct analouges are tactical marines, which aren't costed properly at all. If tac marines were costed as to be a viable choice, I suspect we'd have a better idea if Intercessors are worth the points. I personally find them worth it, but I'm a new player who dumped his old marines at the first chance he got - not exactly an unbiased source
DraxiusII wrote: Does anyone else feel the first codex pains with vanilla primaris marines? The lack of usable stratagems or relics is really starting to become noticeable now that more armies have their codex, and it's going to become even more apparent since battalions generate more CPs. I normally run Chapter Master since I really don't lose much by doing so, and I'll usually get a couple good Bolter Drills off with a squad of inceptors. Other than that, the reroll strat is really all there is, and space marines reroll almost everything anyway. Granted, I think it's fine that not all armies lean on their stratagems as much as Eldar, but we don't even really have situational stratagems other than Auspex Scan.
Just curious about how everyone else felt and what you guys are spending your CPs on.
I feel like Codex: SM came out with really strong chapter tactics and relics, but strategems that were soon passed out to almost every other faction in the game. That being said, if its true that DW primaris are almost the same cost as Codex:SM primaris there really won't be a reason to not switch.
We're going to be living in a darker time when everyone switches to Deathwatch. Before we were at "you can't lower the cost of Space Marines because Guilliman is too good!" Now we'll be at "you can't lower the cost of Space Marines because Deathwatch is too good!"
But I am pretty miffed that half of the Stratagems for Space Marines are so dependent on formations or are extremely particular to certain units, and the other half are terrible with only a few exceptions.
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Lemondish wrote: I think it's important to clarify this statement to mean mostly Intercessors and Reivers. They're clearly better in all ways. But Hellblasters, Aggressors, and Inceptors only gain the Mission Tactics component, which is achievable in every SM army using a LT while also providing a different chapter tactic. Those Primaris units end up functionally the same.
Sure, they do get the opportunity to serve as troops in kill teams, which is great for the CP, flexibility, and ablative wounds, but regular SM armies have benefits to offset that, like not having problems filling out troops slots thanks to scouts.
Likewise, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Repulsors don't really gain much from being DW over vanilla. The real winners here are Intercessors, the special characters with guns, and Reivers. I wouldn't say that counts as being best for ALL Primaris.
What Aggressors and Hellblasters gained was ablative wounds. Now not only are Intercessors going to be spitting some crazy strong firepower, they're going to have Aggressor and Hellblaster buddies that let them melt things and enjoy no penalty to movement and advancing. I think the big stick ballers of DW are going to be 5 Intercessors, 4 Hellblasters, and 1 Aggressor with Flamers to mulch anyone who feels like charging this disgusting firebase.
I don't think falling back and shooting will be incredibly helpful all of the time, but on some units it will be. For those who can't fall back, swing back with your 2 attacks per model and shoot them with your 2+ to wound or AP-2 bolt pistols.
Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.
Regardless of the exact makeup of the squad, I think it's pretty clear that it's a much better setup if they're costed the same as normal intercessors. Even a single hellblaster in the squad dramatically increases the squad’s damage output, for not that many more points.
It sucks because I really do like the specialist primaris squads, but if they aren't cheaper per model than the mixed deathwatch variant, there really isn't a reason to take them.
That's the whole trick to using intercessors, is to create a situation where your opponent has to target them. Why would you not add some teeth to the squad to make sure they aren’t ignored? The better stratagems for running DW is just icing on the cake.
"I keep hearing this juxtaposed alongside complaints that they die super quick because everybody has a million 2 damage weapons. I love the extremes"
They sure do, when they get around to shooting them after they've killed all the primaris that can actually do something. The two are not mutually exclusive. They can both be ignored and then die fast when targeted by the appropriate weapons. Hell, *I* don't care if my own intercessors are on the table, why should my opponent? The units getting evaporated first are hellblasters and inceptors. Because duh.
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Crimson wrote: In my experience they do not die easily, it is just that their damage output is rather apathetic. DW fixes that.
Both are true, unfortuantely. A terrible combination.
I think Sm have some good psychic powers I don’t really understand what some people want.
Might of Heroes - super buff to beat stick character or dread similar to Diabolic Strength
Veil of Time - unit always hits First in melee great deterrent with Heroic Intervention
Psychic Fortress - excellent defense versus mortal wounds
Null Zone is a total game winner. If you can’t cast it take Tiggy or burn a CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: “Martel won't be happy until they get GW to wring out every last buff they can get for BA. Why their chosen method is complaining on DakkaDakka, I never know. I assume Martel keeps a similar campaign going on GW's facebook/email.“
DraxiusII wrote: Regardless of the exact makeup of the squad, I think it's pretty clear that it's a much better setup if they're costed the same as normal intercessors. Even a single hellblaster in the squad dramatically increases the squad’s damage output, for not that many more points.
It sucks because I really do like the specialist primaris squads, but if they aren't cheaper per model than the mixed deathwatch variant, there really isn't a reason to take them.
That's the whole trick to using intercessors, is to create a situation where your opponent has to target them. Why would you not add some teeth to the squad to make sure they aren’t ignored? The better stratagems for running DW is just icing on the cake.
The only reason you'd take them is to avoid the 100 point Intercessor tax (90 for models, 2ppm extra for Bolt Rifle and Bolt Pistol; estimated). I can see them being used, but not often.
Primark G wrote: I think Sm have some good psychic powers I don’t really understand what some people want.
Might of Heroes - super buff to beat stick character or dread similar to Diabolic Strength
Veil of Time - unit always hits First in melee great deterrent with Heroic Intervention
Psychic Fortress - excellent defense versus mortal wounds
Null Zone is a total game winner. If you can’t cast it take Tiggy or burn a CP.
I agree that the SM powers are pretty good, but it would have been nice to see some nice new fluffy DW ones. I suppose it makes sense given all these guys were trained in a normal SM chapter before induction.
bort wrote: Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.
I feel like the 10 man ball is probably overkill. I know that's what GW is pushing but you don't need to minimize the number of intercessors since they're actually pretty nice with SIA and maximized squads make a juicier target for heavy weapons. I think squads like 5 intercessors/2 hellblasters or 5 Intercessors/1 Aggressor/1 Reiver will be more efficient.
bort wrote: Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.
I feel like the 10 man ball is probably overkill. I know that's what GW is pushing but you don't need to minimize the number of intercessors since they're actually pretty nice with SIA and maximized squads make a juicier target for heavy weapons. I think squads like 5 intercessors/2 hellblasters or 5 Intercessors/1 Aggressor/1 Reiver will be more efficient.
I've very, very rarely seen people wipe out an Intercessor squad entirely with 1 round of shooting, but it could be because I play Raven Guard. Even if someone is capable of doing it, having 5 Intercessors and 4 Hellblasters with 1 Aggressor means they'll need to get through 12 wounds before they even touch the real meat of your squad. It just seems to me that Deathwatch is going to be very deadly and still very sturdy.
I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.
You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.
To be fair the dark eldar are tailor made to kill primaris marines. Not every single army you play against will be dark eldar.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.
You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.
To be fair the dark eldar are tailor made to kill primaris marines. Not every single army you play against will be dark eldar.
You don't think competitive events will be crawling with these guys now?
bort wrote: Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.
I feel like the 10 man ball is probably overkill. I know that's what GW is pushing but you don't need to minimize the number of intercessors since they're actually pretty nice with SIA and maximized squads make a juicier target for heavy weapons. I think squads like 5 intercessors/2 hellblasters or 5 Intercessors/1 Aggressor/1 Reiver will be more efficient.
I think the primary argument in favor of big squads is maxing the efficiency of Stratagem usage. If I play the +1 to Wound DW strat, I'd rather it hit 4-5 Hellblasters instead of 1-2.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.
You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.
To be fair the dark eldar are tailor made to kill primaris marines. Not every single army you play against will be dark eldar.
You don't think competitive events will be crawling with these guys now?
I don't think you should play any mono-marine force in competitive events.
I think Deathwatch Primaris are good enough that I am actually scared to repaint all my stuff for fear of a future nerf. I highly doubt they will ever drop the points of Vanilla Primaris again, it would make more sense to add 3 more ppm to the DW ones or something.
That said they aren't too good on the scale of the game as a whole, we basically just have to hope that Space Marine players don't complain so much that GW nerf Deathwatch.
Primark G wrote: He doesn’t use LoS blocking terrain. He will say he does but not really.
Because Drukhari can't fly around a corner? Get real. Yeah, we have LoS blocking terrain, but it hurts marines almost more than anyone else. I've also played against 18 of the bugs with indirect fire. LoS blocking is a double-edged sword for marines for sure.
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Malkyr wrote: I think Deathwatch Primaris are good enough that I am actually scared to repaint all my stuff for fear of a future nerf. I highly doubt they will ever drop the points of Vanilla Primaris again, it would make more sense to add 3 more ppm to the DW ones or something.
That said they aren't too good on the scale of the game as a whole, we basically just have to hope that Space Marine players don't complain so much that GW nerf Deathwatch.
They're going to have to make base primaris cheaper, imo.
Primark G wrote: He doesn’t use LoS blocking terrain. He will say he does but not really.
Because Drukhari can't fly around a corner? Get real. Yeah, we have LoS blocking terrain, but it hurts marines almost more than anyone else. I've also played against 18 of the bugs with indirect fire. LoS blocking is a double-edged sword for marines for sure.
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Malkyr wrote: I think Deathwatch Primaris are good enough that I am actually scared to repaint all my stuff for fear of a future nerf. I highly doubt they will ever drop the points of Vanilla Primaris again, it would make more sense to add 3 more ppm to the DW ones or something.
That said they aren't too good on the scale of the game as a whole, we basically just have to hope that Space Marine players don't complain so much that GW nerf Deathwatch.
They're going to have to make base primaris cheaper, imo.
Naw, you get real. When somebody mentions terrain, they mean plural. Multiple pieces. Not hiding your whole army behind a single rock. That's hilarious. What games are you playing?
Sure, that Drukhari unit can fly around a corner - but then what. It blasts one super expendable unit? Oh man, what a bummer. Good thing you positioned properly and now their paper airplane is exposed gonna burst into flame next turn. I mean, you gotta position properly. GW isn't going to just drop the cost of your units to the point positioning doesn't. C'mon son, you know this.
Marines don't have super expendable units, and with a range of 36", disintegrators pick their target, you don't. This isn't melee.
With such huge movement rates, it's pretty easy for them to traverse multiple LoS blockers. And again, you just don't max out LoS blockers mindlessly because that's how you autolose to IG.
I recommend using ITC rules for terrain. It really helps Marines. Noting that Martel never has anything good to say about Space Marines only ever citing negative examples.
Primark G wrote: I recommend using ITC rules for terrain. It really helps Marines. Noting that Martel never has anything good to say about Space Marines only ever citing negative examples.
He makes a great PR guy for the dark eldar though.
I play almost exclusively ITC matchups. ITC makes it more difficult for slow units that are unable to clear the obstacles, I agree. Of course, who has more movement, Drukhari or marines? LoS blocking terrain cripples your precious hellblasters pretty well, so I'm surprised you're a fan.
I have plenty of positive example for BA, but they are mostly in matches against... marines. When there's one list that you can beat the crap out of over and over and over again, you begin to lose respect.
Zustiur wrote: Sometimes I wish I could witness Martel's meta for myself. It sounds completely unbelievable. Any photos or videos you can share Martel?
Drukari being Drukhari are unbelievable? Two of the competitive guys quit, actually. I've actually won a lot more games in 8th, so it's nothing super special anymore, but the the last three codices are ball-busting for marines, esp primaris marines. The reality is that I'm hesitant to invest soup money. I've got a couple starter boxes of primaris and some reivers, and I'm pissed they keep publishing weapons that feth them over. If I had Eldar or something my win rate would quite high, actually. So it's not the meta, really.
Although I did just play vs 3 necron destroyer blobs. That was super unfun. The FAQ also did BA no favors when I was already struggling to survive IG lists. I"ll send pics the next time I play destroyer guy, but it's 17 destroyers in a list. There's also the guy with 200 3rd ed IG infantry. And the woman who's got eight shooty carnifexes.
The 7th ed meta was just guys practicing Eldar and SW super friends for tournaments. That's not really anything special, either, I was just unwillling to buy an Eldar army. Even in 7th, I bumbled into a win or two over Gladius, showing that marines were weaker than Eldar even at the zenith of marines, imo.
Zustiur wrote: Sometimes I wish I could witness Martel's meta for myself. It sounds completely unbelievable. Any photos or videos you can share Martel?
Drukari being Drukhari are unbelievable? Two of the competitive guys quit, actually. I've actually won a lot more games in 8th, so it's nothing super special anymore, but the the last three codices are ball-busting for marines, esp primaris marines. The reality is that I'm hesitant to invest soup money. I've got a couple starter boxes of primaris and some reivers, and I'm pissed they keep publishing weapons that feth them over. If I had Eldar or something my win rate would quite high, actually. So it's not the meta, really.
Although I did just play vs 3 necron destroyer blobs. That was super unfun. The FAQ also did BA no favors when I was already struggling to survive IG lists. I"ll send pics the next time I play destroyer guy, but it's 17 destroyers in a list. There's also the guy with 200 3rd ed IG infantry. And the woman who's got eight shooty carnifexes.
The 7th ed meta was just guys practicing Eldar and SW super friends for tournaments. That's not really anything special, either, I was just unwillling to buy an Eldar army. Even in 7th, I bumbled into a win or two over Gladius, showing that marines were weaker than Eldar even at the zenith of marines, imo.
My play both Space Marines and Necrons, have to say that Necron Destroyers are the bane of Space Marines. They have awesome firepower but they also die quite easily (of course, they melt under the blade of Magnus, not to the piss poor marines anti infamtry firepower). And they might get their points hiked back to their Index level at the end of thus year which makes them unusable again, so, don't worry. Lol
7th Marine if properly built, like the Draigo - Tiggy conclave - Grav Centurion star can take on the well known infamous "too OP" Eldar army head on. Of course, it is kaput in 8th edition.
Martel732 wrote: I believe the claim was a strat was stacking with a Cryptek. I've quit questioning Xeno claims.
That's not very Space Marine of you
Our biggest asset is flexibility, so while we shouldn't be tailoring our lists, we should be tailoring our strategies to combat other armies, and to do that we need to know what they're capable of.
A disintegrator shooting at guardsmen has a ceiling of 12 pts. Shooting at even intercessors has ceiling of 54 pts. With inceptors that goes to 135 pts. That's insane, and not a trivial thing to overcome.
Martel732 wrote: A disintegrator shooting at guardsmen has a ceiling of 12 pts. Shooting at even intercessors has ceiling of 54 pts. With inceptors that goes to 135 pts. That's insane, and not a trivial thing to overcome.
And a disintegrator shooting at Obliterators has a ceiling of 65 points, or Custodes Jetbikes has a ceiling of 90 points. Or even shooting at a Dhrukari Venom for - wow - 65 points. 2D doesn't only effect marines, and it isn't as commonplace as you think it is. I think Dhrukari are busted as hell but hey - don't play against them, or at the very least don't run Primaris against them if you hate them that much.
Martel732 wrote: You say that, yet I know a CSM guy already building a 17 autocannon list in preparation for DW primaris. If it's not common, I suspect it's coming.
Let em. Each Autocannon costs as much as a DW Intercessor, and 2 shots at 3+ against marines out of cover only kills 1 40% of the time. This doesn't even count the cost of the models holding it, or the penalty for moving and shooting.
Martel732 wrote: I think it's been trimmed down to 13. But you can never assume cover. That's a bad assumption.
I said out of cover. And CA lists it at 15, so I guess they're getting a little more bang for their buck, but I still wouldn't worry. Take some tanks or dreadnoughts and laugh. Hell in this instance a Land Raider would be amazing. Wounding on 5s and still getting a 3+ armor save. All 17 autocannons will only deal 5 wounds even if they all focused it.
Sure, okay, Martel. We get it, you're down on Primaris. You're down on marines. It'd be okay if you didn't ignore the math on these things, but I get it - you don't like em. That's fine.
But each time you talk you derail the thread from people who aren't in a meta where TFG runs 17 autocannons to target your army specifically.
Now that that's over with BACK ON TOPIC:
So the DW Intercessor squad doesn't actually limit weapon choices to all models added to the squad - it says "any Intercessor/Reiver/etc" rather than "all" like in C:SM. That means you could realistically have a flamer aggressor and a dakka aggressor in the same squad (probably not all that useful), or a plasma Inceptor alongside the bolter ones (gives the whole squad T5 while mixing in plasma and heavy bolter equivalent shots). Adds to the versatility of these squads at least.
Sure, okay, Martel. We get it, you're down on Primaris. You're down on marines. It'd be okay if you didn't ignore the math on these things, but I get it - you don't like em. That's fine.
But each time you talk you derail the thread from people who aren't in a meta where TFG runs 17 autocannons to target your army specifically.
Now that that's over with BACK ON TOPIC:
So the DW Intercessor squad doesn't actually limit weapon choices to all models added to the squad - it says "any Intercessor/Reiver/etc" rather than "all" like in C:SM. That means you could realistically have a flamer aggressor and a dakka aggressor in the same squad (probably not all that useful), or a plasma Inceptor alongside the bolter ones (gives the whole squad T5 while mixing in plasma and heavy bolter equivalent shots). Adds to the versatility of these squads at least.
I think we'll see Flamer aggressors be used for DW exclusively. It allows you to keep your dakka squad while also having something nasty cooked up for anyone who feels like they want to charge it.
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
Primark G wrote: If it’s a Primaris Kill Team your opponents will only ever charge you with units that inflict straight 2 damage and ignore armor saves right?
Naw, they won't be charging you because they brought 47 Autocannons, remember?
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.
I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.
I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.
Glad to hear that the unit performed well, as it's a configuration I'm thinking of using myself.
I'm definitely on the side of dakka aggressors. This unit looks like it should be extremely hard to get rid of and pours out a crazy amount of dakka. With a meta that's currently ruled by hordes, having some really serious anti-horde options has to be a good thing. I'd consider filling a battalion with these units, probably backed up by some IG shooty stuff - or maybe things like leviathan dreads.
There are a fair number of tricks you can do with this unit I think. Use the inceptor to slingshot the unit into an assault, for example. Have the aggressors in the rear "rank" of the unit, then you might be able to fall back without moving some of them, so they can fire twice (as you determine whether individual models, not units, have moved). You can also use the inceptor to make it hard to pin the unit in combat. He can fly out, hopefully leaving a gap for the other guys to run through.
One thing that I've found is that a chapter master really helps aggressors, particularly with overwatch. Where a normal captain's ability to reroll 1s helps a little, being able to reroll 1-5 almost doubles the effect of your overwatch fire. It also applies to things like leviathans, which are no fun at all to charge if a chapter master is nearby.
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.
I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.
Glad to hear that the unit performed well, as it's a configuration I'm thinking of using myself.
I'm definitely on the side of dakka aggressors. This unit looks like it should be extremely hard to get rid of and pours out a crazy amount of dakka. With a meta that's currently ruled by hordes, having some really serious anti-horde options has to be a good thing. I'd consider filling a battalion with these units, probably backed up by some IG shooty stuff - or maybe things like leviathan dreads.
There are a fair number of tricks you can do with this unit I think. Use the inceptor to slingshot the unit into an assault, for example. Have the aggressors in the rear "rank" of the unit, then you might be able to fall back without moving some of them, so they can fire twice (as you determine whether individual models, not units, have moved). You can also use the inceptor to make it hard to pin the unit in combat. He can fly out, hopefully leaving a gap for the other guys to run through.
One thing that I've found is that a chapter master really helps aggressors, particularly with overwatch. Where a normal captain's ability to reroll 1s helps a little, being able to reroll 1-5 almost doubles the effect of your overwatch fire. It also applies to things like leviathans, which are no fun at all to charge if a chapter master is nearby.
In hindsight I definitely should have done a watchmaster instead, since the aggressive nature of this tactic meant he'd be near enough to the deep striking units that they'd be able to benefit from his aura as well. It was really only one test, but I think I disliked how broken up my army felt. I had a squad of half Intercessors/Hellblasters in the back with the dreads, and one tiny Vet squad with missile launchers, a stalker boltgun, and an infernus. At one point it was like having three separate fighting forces and had my opponent the foresight to predict this, I think my firebase back there could have been in a lot of trouble really quickly. The rapidfire Interblasters were midfield, and the Interaggressors (new label wooo) and Vets were dicking around two thirds of the way across the table. Kind of left the dreads and the vet squad exposed a bit.
Martel732 wrote:18" range is simply far superior to 8" . 18" is also the doubletap for kraken rounds.
Absolutely. I don't feel like anybody has the points to devote that much to a flamer without it being some sort of combiweapon - the Aggressor with flamers would just be a warm body taking up space without any ability to contribute at all. It's too bad - they seem like they could be fun if flamers weren't trash, or if the delivery options weren't going to double the price of the unit.
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.
I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.
I agree dakka Aggressor are better choice. but TBH, with the change of edition, I really doubt the effectiveness of powerfists. Even you take 4 of them, they only have a total of 8A, with the new edition you hitting on 4s, so even with rerolls for near a watch master you are looking at only 5.32 hits, now you wound those MCs on 3s instead of 2s unless you pop a stratagem to give +1 to wound. Even doing so it yields 4.4 Wounds, and those big MCs usually have 4++ (Hive Tyrants, Tzeentch MCs, Ctans, etc all have such). That means only 2W goes through, resulting an average of 4D.... I think that is not likely to scare off those melee MCs. In reply, their high strength 2D/3D weapons all hit on 2s which can tore a big hole in those DW Primaris squad. Before fall back with Fly and then MW your squad to death.
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.
I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.
I agree dakka Aggressor are better choice. but TBH, with the change of edition, I really doubt the effectiveness of powerfists. Even you take 4 of them, they only have a total of 8A, with the new edition you hitting on 4s, so even with rerolls for near a watch master you are looking at only 5.32 hits, now you wound those MCs on 3s instead of 2s unless you pop a stratagem to give +1 to wound. Even doing so it yields 4.4 Wounds, and those big MCs usually have 4++ (Hive Tyrants, Tzeentch MCs, Ctans, etc all have such). That means only 2W goes through, resulting an average of 4D.... I think that is not likely to scare off those melee MCs. In reply, their high strength 2D/3D weapons all hit on 2s which can tore a big hole in those DW Primaris squad. Before fall back with Fly and then MW your squad to death.
Assuming you want to bring it down - you'll be running the relevant tactics, perhaps even the doctrine, and have your watchmaster nearby. By my count that squad with the watchmaster support would be causing closer to 8 damage to something like a Hive Tyrant, when accounting for those buffs and the inclusion of the watchmaster in that combat, and the other attackers in the unit. Not to mention about 2 more damage from the Overwatch. All averages, of course. Could swing either way, but considering that Tyrant will not have been reaching my marines unscathed, especially since I can wound it on 2+, I think that's pretty substantial considering they are not meant to be my monster hunters. This unit is still pretty resilient so I think they'll mostly survive a Tyrant wailing on them with monstrous rending claws or whatever.
Not sure, though - I'll have to try it out against the friendly neighbourhood Tyranid.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, I know. I'm talking about the intercessor meat shields hanging out with said aggressors.
In this case I was running autobolters so that I could advance up the field without giving up shooting. As such they always double tap, as it were. Vengeance rounds drop the bolters to the same range as the Aggressors, and I was really looking forward to using those, but it would have been a waste on the cultists.
I'm eager to get a game in against an actual xeno force, though.
I don't it's worth giving up the base -1 AP. Ever. The swing on damage cleared with hellfire rounds is too huge, imo. Keep the bolt rifles. Being able to tag annoying Xenos at 36" with -2 AP is pretty nice, too.
You do NOT want primaris in CC with a tyrant. They are doing flat 3 damage. You want guys like stormshield VV in there. Or a crazy BA character that squishes the bug.
Martel732 wrote: I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.
I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.
Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.
Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.
I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.
I would have ran regular bolt rifles honestly. Both Inceptors and Aggressors have 18" range, and that's the exact sweet spot for Kraken round Bolt Rifles. Seems like perfect synergy. Being able to advance doesn't seem like much for a unit I definitely would want to deep strike and sit tight for the Aggressor double tap. Maybe something like 6 Intercessors, 3 Hellblasters, 1 Aggressor would be a good unit if you want to be an advancing dakka force. I don't think there's much that S7 can accomplish that S6 can't, so the penalty to the Hellblasters doesn't seem that steep.
Martel732 wrote: 18" range is simply far superior to 8" . 18" is also the doubletap for kraken rounds.
Overwatch. People are going to want to charge this unit. Not to kill it, but to lock it up, especially if you have hellblasters or 4 dakka aggressors. 2d6 flamers in their mouth makes them think differently, or makes them pay for it. Yes, they could charge something that would shrug off flamers, but forcing your opponent to use a unit to eat overwatch is a big advantage. Again, it's a choice to make, so if you're only fighting autocannons then the flamers would be a waste, but if your opponent has orkz or nids or electropriests or vv's or harlequins... basically any 1W glass cannon melee models, they're gonna think twice. Especially orkz. I can't think of anything better than Flamer aggressors to pop that stratagem on.
Also, for the previous argument that "they're more expensive" ... it's 2 points dude.
Yeah I have to get onboard with the anti-flamer aggressors here. The extra range is HUGE for the bolter shots and synergizes extremely well with the 15-18 inch happy range the squad will want to be in. If I am going to be worried about assaults I'd rather take an inceptor to fallback and shoot over a flamer aggressor.
Intercessors needed a legit scheme and got one. Aggressors needed to not instantly die. Now they don't. The question is if this is enough improvement? Maybe.
Melee is not trash. Top tables of tournaments are full of hordes assaulting people. An army needs to be able to deal with 120+ plaguebearers, all conga-lined back to a tree and buff characters now. And it needs to be able to handle 200+ orks.
I was at the finals of the UKGT this weekend. It was won by orks, with a big focus on numbers of models on the board and getting them where they were needed.
I did ok with my crimson fists. Lost m first game against the Ynnari list that came 2nd - and went first against me. He had 25 shining spears and 20 dark reapers (10 in webway, 10 in plasma obliterator). Not a great start to the event!
Also lost against a 120 plaguebearer list, due to failing to pin a unit. Smashed a couple of guard armies and some custodes. 3:2 in the end wasn't too bad, given how things started out.
I ran my leviathan for the first time at a competitive event. I'm not 100% sold on it. Ony the Ynnari killed it, but it spent an awful lot of time in cc. Against the nurgle army it took no damage but only got fo fire once - at a unit of nurglings.
First turn is so crucial in 40k right now. I easily could have lost to the IG but I had fewer drops so went first and was able to pull the teeth out of both armies before they really got going. But the Ynnari had done the same to me. It's honestly a big problem with the game as a whole, and a shame they didn't do anything about it when they switched to 8th. I don't think anyone would now design a shooting game like 40k and use the "I go you go" turn sequence.
Assuming he's correct, just put in one flamer boy then. It's still better to engage hordes at range than rely on overwatch. If they feed you a trukk, your flamers look foolish.
My personal theory is that Orks benefit from time limits, as they never have the potential to get tabled like in a FLGS match. Likewise, IG are not provided the time to table their opponents with their grinding, methodical firepower, so they are very negatively impacted by the time limits.
One thing that I've found is that a chapter master really helps aggressors, particularly with overwatch. Where a normal captain's ability to reroll 1s helps a little, being able to reroll 1-5 almost doubles the effect of your overwatch fire.
this is a really important point, and a big part of why Aggressors are so good next to Azrael or guilliman or a Watch Master. Rerolling all misses means nearly double overwatch.
Martel732 wrote: Assuming he's correct, just put in one flamer boy then. It's still better to engage hordes at range than rely on overwatch. If they feed you a trukk, your flamers look foolish.
Yeah that's the idea. You only need one.
Also "just fall back and shoot" isn't following the proper logic of the order the turns go in. Overwatch means you deal damage BEFORE the enemy does, JUST for charging. Falling back and shooting means you're only dealing damage after you've been chopped up, and there might not be much left to shoot with after that.
In fact, maths. All will be assuming you miss with everything in overwatch except the flamers, which are 2D6 autohits at S4 AP0 - rerolling wound rolls of 1. I'm using http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/ to get my maths.
Khorne Berzerkers - 1.35 wounds or 74.6% chance to deal 1 wound. Each wound removes 8 attacks or 1.19 wounds from the fight phase.
Ork Boyz - 3.40 wounds or 67% chance to deal at least 3 wounds. Each wound removes 4 attacks to a total of 12, or 1.33 wounds from the fight phase. (if you don't just use the stratagem to stop them entirely in their tracks.)
Genestealers - 2.72 wounds or 76.2% chance to deal at least 2 wounds. Each wound removes 4 attacks to a total of 8, or 1.56 wounds from the fight phase.
All of this gets doubled if you didn't move in the previous phase. There's a few things this wouldn't be effective against - like anyone who can reliably charge outside of deep strike range - but a few wounds like these can save your ass and keep units that don't want to get roasted at bay.
Martel always comes up with crazy scenarios that defy any sense of game experience... for example it is possible the trukk could make every single ramshackle save.
I do the same thing all the time. It's not crazy. Using a vehicle to soak overwatch is assault 101. It's crazy to you because you are all in on gunlines evidently.
Martel732 wrote: It's not always that easy. Especially with low model count, low firepower lists like marines. It really depends on the composition of each list.
Trukks are on like the lowest tier of "vehicles that are hard to deal with." If you can't slag a trukk in 1 turn it's no wonder everything gives you so much trouble. I'd love to see how you'd deal with a gargantuan squiggoth.
Don't take the flamers. Live in a world where everything is 18" away from you and never gets any closer, where no one charges you, and autocannons grow on trees. Keep thinking only in increments of one turn, where the entire game rides on 1 squad losing to a hard counter.
Nothing I post is random. I'm probably playing against lists and tactics you haven't experienced. Like 14 autocannons (CSM) or 18 disintegrators (Drukhari).
Martel732 wrote: It's not always that easy. Especially with low model count, low firepower lists like marines. It really depends on the composition of each list.
Trukks are on like the lowest tier of "vehicles that are hard to deal with." If you can't slag a trukk in 1 turn it's no wonder everything gives you so much trouble. I'd love to see how you'd deal with a gargantuan squiggoth.
Don't take the flamers. Live in a world where everything is 18" away from you and never gets any closer, where no one charges you, and autocannons grow on trees. Keep thinking only in increments of one turn, where the entire game rides on 1 squad loses to a hard counter.
Given that I'm rocking BA, I would hope that stuff gets closer than 18".
The trukk in a vacuum is not the issue. It's called target saturation. Something that marines struggle with, but other lists do quite effectively.
You are fixating on the unit "trukk". It could be anything; Squiggoth, deff dred, Morkanaut. Anything that flamers aren't effective against. Which is a pretty long list, actually. Flamers don't deter me, I don't see why they'd deter superior lists.
The bottom line is that I prefer the ranged attacks, because then I get to pick the target. With overwatch, I have to shoot what they give me. I don't like that.
Well, I guess passion counts for something, even if its misplaced and used to fuel far-reaching proclamations that are demonstrably false. You know who you are.
I'll clarify for others to understand, though - I didn't choose the Bolt Rifles on this squad because -1 AP doesn't overcome the loss of shooting for when I advance. And I want to advance. It does the most damage at 18'' and I also want to make sure it gets into cover or contest an objective. That's the role of this unit. My gamble was that the lack of -1 AP would be made up for by an extra couple round of shooting for both the Aggressors and the Intercessors.
If this Primaris anvil is what drew the ire of the fictional Hive Tyrant in this ever more confusion and nonsensically elaborate fake scenario - then I welcome it. Better it than my soft Vet squads, dreadnoughts, my Interblaster squad, etc. I see that as a win. He won't get through 10 models - simply not enough swings even if he runs the board on everything.
As for this fictional Trukk scenario - this is actually a great point in a vacuum. Transports are often perfect for soaking overwatch. If you fear this is going to happen, you have time to react with a unit this mobile, though. Transports telegraph their intentions really clearly.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe it works out. Maybe not. I don't care for the AP 0 intercessor weapon, though.
Weren't you the one who brought monstrous creatures into the conversation?
Naw, was responding to Neophyte. Thought it was a fun little distraction until everybody started to take the whole thing seriously.
If it makes you feel any better, I really enjoyed the bolt rifle on the Intercessor squad that had Hellblasters mixed in. The bolt rifle is honestly the best SIA gun, I feel. I just valued the mobility more for the Aggressor rush.
I need more games with this unit to see if I want to keep it doing its thing. Still a lot of points.
Lemondish wrote: Well, I guess passion counts for something, even if its misplaced and used to fuel far-reaching proclamations that are demonstrably false. You know who you are.
I'll clarify for others to understand, though - I didn't choose the Bolt Rifles on this squad because -1 AP doesn't overcome the loss of shooting for when I advance. And I want to advance. It does the most damage at 18'' and I also want to make sure it gets into cover or contest an objective. That's the role of this unit. My gamble was that the lack of -1 AP would be made up for by an extra couple round of shooting for both the Aggressors and the Intercessors.
If this Primaris anvil is what drew the ire of the fictional Hive Tyrant in this ever more confusion and nonsensically elaborate fake scenario - then I welcome it. Better it than my soft Vet squads, dreadnoughts, my Interblaster squad, etc. I see that as a win. He won't get through 10 models - simply not enough swings even if he runs the board on everything.
As for this fictional Trukk scenario - this is actually a great point in a vacuum. Transports are often perfect for soaking overwatch. If you fear this is going to happen, you have time to react with a unit this mobile, though. Transports telegraph their intentions really clearly.
What's the point in advancing? There aren't any objectives on the table, and if there were, you'd just deploy scouts onto all of them and they would be unable to be removed for the entire game. And without that additional -1 AP how are you ever going to beat 7 Guillimans with Wings in a fist fight?
Kidding aside, I think mobility is really great for Primaris and, having given it more thought, worth the trade. Plus, even though regular bolt rifles will be shooting twice at AP-2 at 18" with kraken rounds, the auto bolt rifles will... be shooting at AP-2 at 18" with vengeance rounds. You'll only see a payoff at closer range for the bolt rifles, which you'd probably want to avoid anyway, so advancing backwards and blasting dudes non-stop seems great. My only schtick is that by constantly advancing you're not utilizing those aggressors to full effectiveness, but I suppose that's just the trade-off. Now the real question is if it's worth the extra point to get all that.
It's a lot of points, but it can engage both hordes and bigger monster-types. And, it's VERY hard to kill without the right weapons. So you need a way to keep the right weapons pointed somewhere else.
A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.
I'm still not sold on the flamestorm idea. As much as I'd love that overwatch boost, the fact you can't even DS into range to fire it sucks and if you use the ITC building rules then a lot of threatening charge units can either LOS it or fairly reliably charge from outside the 8".
Given we're talking about the Intercessor+Aggressor combo here, how do you think it compares to Vets with SIA storm bolters? A few days ago I was all on the Aggressor train too, but, dang, unless you're getting off that not moved double tap, those SIA stormbolters have some serious firepower as well.
The main advantage I see to keeping with the Primaris is having as big a squad as possible if you're gonna burn CP to DS and then use the +1 to wound stratagem.
grouchoben wrote: A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.
You can take the stalker bolt rifle and move without penalty.
grouchoben wrote: A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.
You can take the stalker bolt rifle and move without penalty.
With only 1 shot per model though. It's not bad but I don't think I'm going to be taking that gun ever, especially with the increased cost for it.
grouchoben wrote: A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.
You can take the stalker bolt rifle and move without penalty.
With only 1 shot per model though. It's not bad but I don't think I'm going to be taking that gun ever, especially with the increased cost for it.
Agreed. 2 shots are always better than one.
That’s why I’m torn on auto vs rapid fire bolt rifles. There are a number of legitimate advantages to both.
I think hellfire is often going to be the best option. Things like plaguebearers and orks don’t rely on armour at all, but have invulnerable saves instead. Auto rifles give you 9” of extra range for 2 helldire shots, as well as letting you advance and shoot (including “advancing” away from nearby enemies. I think auto rifles are clearly the best option against this kind of target.
On the other hand, ap certainly matters. Putting down dark reapers in cover is best done with good ap, and s4 is good enough. So rapid fire rifles are best here.
I think my approach would be to use rifles that matched other models in the unit. Auto rifles with 4 aggressors and an inceptor. Rapid fire with 4 hellblasters and an inceptor. Have the intergressor squads rush forward while the interblasters plod along behind.
Im also really interested in bikes. They seem a great way to get lots of dakka on a target. A squad of 5 with an extra storm bolter costs less than 150pts and can spit out 24 shots. That’s good dakka!
Edit: Is my enhanced edition codex right about the cost of the bolt carbine, or is it a misprint? It’s double the price of an identical auto bolt rifle. Seems odd.
That’s why I’m torn on auto vs rapid fire bolt rifles. There are a number of legitimate advantages to both.
I think hellfire is often going to be the best option. Things like plaguebearers and orks don’t rely on armour at all, but have invulnerable saves instead. Auto rifles give you 9” of extra range for 2 helldire shots, as well as letting you advance and shoot (including “advancing” away from nearby enemies. I think auto rifles are clearly the best option against this kind of target.
On the other hand, ap certainly matters. Putting down dark reapers in cover is best done with good ap, and s4 is good enough. So rapid fire rifles are best here.
I think my approach would be to use rifles that matched other models in the unit. Auto rifles with 4 aggressors and an inceptor. Rapid fire with 4 hellblasters and an inceptor. Have the intergressor squads rush forward while the interblasters plod along behind.
Im also really interested in bikes. They seem a great way to get lots of dakka on a target. A squad of 5 with an extra storm bolter costs less than 150pts and can spit out 24 shots. That’s good dakka!
Edit: Is my enhanced edition codex right about the cost of the bolt carbine, or is it a misprint? It’s double the price of an identical auto bolt rifle. Seems odd.
I think this is about right. The Fortis teams that I've worked out are similar, either they are assault with Auto Bolt Rifles and Aggressors (and 5 Gravis Suits giving everything T5 is pretty worthwhile) and can focus on mobility, good firepower against most targets and decent melee with a bunch of power fists or you're using rapid fire for reduced mobility but more cost effective fire. I wouldn't count out the standard 5 man Intercessor squad with a Bolt Rifle though, it doesn't get any extra rules but SIA is enough to make them efficient for the cost.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Lemondish wrote: Well, I guess passion counts for something, even if its misplaced and used to fuel far-reaching proclamations that are demonstrably false. You know who you are.
I'll clarify for others to understand, though - I didn't choose the Bolt Rifles on this squad because -1 AP doesn't overcome the loss of shooting for when I advance. And I want to advance. It does the most damage at 18'' and I also want to make sure it gets into cover or contest an objective. That's the role of this unit. My gamble was that the lack of -1 AP would be made up for by an extra couple round of shooting for both the Aggressors and the Intercessors.
If this Primaris anvil is what drew the ire of the fictional Hive Tyrant in this ever more confusion and nonsensically elaborate fake scenario - then I welcome it. Better it than my soft Vet squads, dreadnoughts, my Interblaster squad, etc. I see that as a win. He won't get through 10 models - simply not enough swings even if he runs the board on everything.
As for this fictional Trukk scenario - this is actually a great point in a vacuum. Transports are often perfect for soaking overwatch. If you fear this is going to happen, you have time to react with a unit this mobile, though. Transports telegraph their intentions really clearly.
What's the point in advancing? There aren't any objectives on the table, and if there were, you'd just deploy scouts onto all of them and they would be unable to be removed for the entire game. And without that additional -1 AP how are you ever going to beat 7 Guillimans with Wings in a fist fight?
Kidding aside, I think mobility is really great for Primaris and, having given it more thought, worth the trade. Plus, even though regular bolt rifles will be shooting twice at AP-2 at 18" with kraken rounds, the auto bolt rifles will... be shooting at AP-2 at 18" with vengeance rounds. You'll only see a payoff at closer range for the bolt rifles, which you'd probably want to avoid anyway, so advancing backwards and blasting dudes non-stop seems great. My only schtick is that by constantly advancing you're not utilizing those aggressors to full effectiveness, but I suppose that's just the trade-off. Now the real question is if it's worth the extra point to get all that.
That's true, in that situation you would give up the double fire - but I didn't ever feel like I needed to be that mobile as the game went on. I liked having the option, but it didn't turn out to be needed. The goal I set for myself early was to get my Intercessors and Aggressors in range to blast immediately, then castle up and dakka until silenced by relying on T5, 2+ cover save, and more threats in the backline. The real question is whether T5 was worth the cost of losing so many SIA shots. I'm going to try it again, but this time using 9 Intercessors with autos and 1 Aggressor. Going to grab some BA scouts to act as my screen in this next game as well, because they were so exposed a couple of Farseers could have smited them into oblivion.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.
The forgot to give DW a way to turn off forewarning, so don't forget that if you try to DS vs Aeldari, they will erase one unit before they get a shot off. That seems really bad for DW.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.
Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.
Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.
The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.
Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.
The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.
Oh no 2 s4 ap-1 shots per guy. I just don't see the value in such a squad. If they had the sniper rule absolutely, but they don't and they just don't seem worth it at all for 20 points a model.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.
Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.
The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.
Oh no 2 s4 ap-1 shots per guy. I just don't see the value in such a squad. If they had the sniper rule absolutely, but they don't and they just don't seem worth it at all for 20 points a model.
This is DW, where weapon strength means nothing - they'll still wound on 2s with AP-1. Or they could hit S4 AP-3 at 24'', or S4 AP-2 at 36''. There's some value there for long range plinking.
If they received the sniper rule, they'd be downright ridiculous.
Primark G wrote: I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.
I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.
Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.
Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.
The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.
Oh no 2 s4 ap-1 shots per guy. I just don't see the value in such a squad. If they had the sniper rule absolutely, but they don't and they just don't seem worth it at all for 20 points a model.
This is DW, where weapon strength means nothing - they'll still wound on 2s with AP-1. Or they could hit S4 AP-3 at 24'', or S4 AP-2 at 36''. There's some value there for long range plinking.
If they received the sniper rule, they'd be downright ridiculous.
They're ap0 if you use hellfire rounds. The primaris ones have built in ap-2, but have only 1 shot. You can pay 20 points for a chainsword stalker vet or 20 points for a intercessor with a better gun and superior statline.
Yeah fair point on the sniper thing. That would make them too good I agree.
Martel732 wrote: The forgot to give DW a way to turn off forewarning, so don't forget that if you try to DS vs Aeldari, they will erase one unit before they get a shot off. That seems really bad for DW.
They're ap0 if you use hellfire rounds. The primaris ones have built in ap-2, but have only 1 shot. You can pay 20 points for a chainsword stalker vet or 20 points for a intercessor with a better gun and superior statline.
Yeah fair point on the sniper thing. That would make them too good I agree.
The Stalker Boltgun for DW Veterans are Heavy 2 AP-1. They really are Heavy 2 Bolt Rifles. I think the price is high but for a unit holding backfield objectives I can't think of a better gun for the basic boys. Volume of fire wins in all cases, so the Stalker Boltgun is a better gun than the Stalker Bolt Rifle. The extra wound is important though, don't get me wrong. I do think Veterans will be more suited to front line blasting and making sure they shoot everything on the board before they can be shot at and Primaris better suited to holding objectives.
Martel732 wrote: The forgot to give DW a way to turn off forewarning, so don't forget that if you try to DS vs Aeldari, they will erase one unit before they get a shot off. That seems really bad for DW.
They're ap0 if you use hellfire rounds. The primaris ones have built in ap-2, but have only 1 shot. You can pay 20 points for a chainsword stalker vet or 20 points for a intercessor with a better gun and superior statline.
Yeah fair point on the sniper thing. That would make them too good I agree.
The Stalker Boltgun for DW Veterans are Heavy 2 AP-1. They really are Heavy 2 Bolt Rifles. I think the price is high but for a unit holding backfield objectives I can't think of a better gun for the basic boys. Volume of fire wins in all cases, so the Stalker Boltgun is a better gun than the Stalker Bolt Rifle. The extra wound is important though, don't get me wrong. I do think Veterans will be more suited to front line blasting and making sure they shoot everything on the board before they can be shot at and Primaris better suited to holding objectives.
I double checked the codex and turns out you are correct on the ap-1 and I was wrong. I was just looking at battlescribe and alas she has failed me. Time to send that one in to be reviewed. Thank you spotting my error and correcting me.
That ap-1 is a big deal so yeah I suppose I am coming around a bit to a camping sniper squad firing off some rounds. I'm still not 100% sold on it for the points, but I can see your point better now.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, a drop pod does work. But do you bring it in your general list? Tough question.
Drop pods don't work for primaris, though. And they are the ones I would be most likely to use. I think the 1W boys are not viable.
T2 you can drop the first initial strike and a dreadnought to both clear out Aeldari that were planning on shooting your deep strike and possibly make them waste CP to shoot the dready. T3 you can drop the Primaris in. I know you don't like holding units for that long in reserves but I think possibly it might be worth your while depending on the mission type. If you're playing ITC you just need to Kill 1 Hold 1 for 2 turns. Then Turn 3 you come in with the big swing when your real force comes to party. I'm just so glad that Imperium finally has some deep striking units that can SHOOT besides Scions.
One thing I've noticed with Deep Strike is the new beta rules for reserves harms DW in a big way. Every single veteran or intercessor model is two power, so getting the half on/half off is going to be very, very tricky.
ITC has three types of missions, so I'm not sure what Kill 1 Hold 1 is referring to. Clearly, I must not use that kind.
Agreed, some competition for scions is nice, but as you point out, the power thing is quite annoying.
I just used the basic ITC rules, I don't know what other ones there are. You kill a unit on your turn you get a point. You hold an objective on your turn you get a point. That kinda thing.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.
I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.
I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.
Martel732 wrote: I'm going with 5 intercessor, 3 aggressor, 2 inceptor first because I don't want to buy another box of aggressors atm.
That makes sense. I'm wondering where I'll get all the shoulder pads for Inceptors and Aggressors. There are only two on the sprue. I might get starter sets, steal the pads and some gubbins to make my intercessors look more deathwatch-y and ebay the frag cannons and dreadnoughts to make my money back.
Martel732 wrote: I'm going with 5 intercessor, 3 aggressor, 2 inceptor first because I don't want to buy another box of aggressors atm.
That makes sense. I'm wondering where I'll get all the shoulder pads for Inceptors and Aggressors. There are only two on the sprue. I might get starter sets, steal the pads and some gubbins to make my intercessors look more deathwatch-y and ebay the frag cannons and dreadnoughts to make my money back.
Few things I've noticed:
Start Collecting comes with an upgrade sprue for "free."
Deathwatch Venerable Dreadnoughts are just Venerable Dreadnought priced with the upgrade sprue for actually free.
Deathwatch Terminator Captain also comes with the upgrade sprue for actually free.
Deathwatch Intercessors are just Intercessors and the sprue with the exact cost of the sprue tacked on so... don't get cheated.
No worries. It's hard to get tone of voice on the internet sometimes. Possibly my misreading of what you said.
I'm not sure whether to make deathwatch or orks for my next army. It would be fun to make something totally different, and to smash ynnari in their stupid faces. I'm not sure there's an imperial list that can do that. Hordes can.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.
I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.
I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.
I'm going to run 5 intercessors and 5 inceptors just so I can finally just call it an Interceptor squad.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.
I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.
I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.
I'm going to run 5 intercessors and 5 inceptors just so I can finally just call it an Interceptor squad.
Well to be fair, that's what most people have been calling inceptors anyway. I get where you're coming from but to be honest I don't think that's a great squad. Deathwatch inceptors aren't great, other than for letting a unit fall back.
I'm going to run Intercessors and Inceptors JUST so I can call them Interceptors. So everyone who says "they're intercessors" or "they're inceptors" can be immediately talked down to. There is no changing my mind.
Also FYI Battlescribe has the Inceptor prices wrong for DW, since they need to pay for 2 weapons and Battlescribe only has them paying for 1.
I'm going to run Intercessors and Inceptors JUST so I can call them Interceptors. So everyone who says "they're intercessors" or "they're inceptors" can be immediately talked down to. There is no changing my mind.
Also FYI Battlescribe has the Inceptor prices wrong for DW, since they need to pay for 2 weapons and Battlescribe only has them paying for 1.
Oh, I do understand, and I approve of your plan in a way. It's obviously a very silly thing to do, but wins points for bloody-mindedness.
I'm not sure what the point of battlescribe is, other than helping people to create illegal army lists, accidentally cheat their friends and get disqualified at events. I find excel far more reliable.
If I do breakdown and go DW over RG, I think I'm going to end up leaving all my Primaris shoulders as the default, though I shudder at having to try to freehand all the icons. Just too much to buy all those large pads and too many of my Primaris are the snap fit.
I'd probably start with 2 units of the intergressors and 1 of the blasters...Though, I'm still considering going 1 unit of Vets over the Aggressors cause rapid firing SIA storm bolters is so nice, but they'd also die so much faster...
Martel732 wrote: Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.
I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.
I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.
I'm going to run 5 intercessors and 5 inceptors just so I can finally just call it an Interceptor squad.
Well to be fair, that's what most people have been calling inceptors anyway. I get where you're coming from but to be honest I don't think that's a great squad. Deathwatch inceptors aren't great, other than for letting a unit fall back.
Well that's much better than calling them incestors which is pretty close to that too lol.
Martel732 wrote: Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.
I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.
I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.
I'm going to point out that Heltergressors as a label is misleading on account of there being no actual Aggressor involved.
So, naturally, I'm on board with it. Confuse the xenos
Martel732 wrote: Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.
I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.
I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.
I'm going to point out that Heltergressors as a label is misleading on account of there being no actual Aggressor involved.
So, naturally, I'm on board with it. Confuse the xenos
A valid point. It should really be Heltercessors, not Heltergressors. I guess Heltergressors might involve assault plasma incinerators with an aggressor, but that feels like a bit of a mess of a unit to me.
I tend to dislike the flamer Aggressors out of principal... I just hate guns that are so easy to be made useless... but something to consider with them is that in overwatch they always get to double tap since the preceding movement phase is your opponents. So they probably didn't move then ^-^ Even with that it isn't too hard to make an 8" charge roll to make that 8.1" charge you need to keep them from shooting you.
Captain Garius wrote: I tend to dislike the flamer Aggressors out of principal... I just hate guns that are so easy to be made useless... but something to consider with them is that in overwatch they always get to double tap since the preceding movement phase is your opponents. So they probably didn't move then ^-^ Even with that it isn't too hard to make an 8" charge roll to make that 8.1" charge you need to keep them from shooting you.
That’s not how the rule works. Aggressors can fire twice if they remained stationary during their turn, not in the preceding movement phase. They don’t necessarily get to double shoot for overwatch.
In any case, as you say, it’s fairly easy to prevent overwatch if your opponent’s paying attention. If anything, a flamer aggressor is at its worst in a big unit, as the enemy can easily charge from a position that’s outside of 8” of him, but a lot closer to other members of the squad.
Captain Garius wrote: I tend to dislike the flamer Aggressors out of principal... I just hate guns that are so easy to be made useless... but something to consider with them is that in overwatch they always get to double tap since the preceding movement phase is your opponents. So they probably didn't move then ^-^ Even with that it isn't too hard to make an 8" charge roll to make that 8.1" charge you need to keep them from shooting you.
That’s not how the rule works. Aggressors can fire twice if they remained stationary during their turn, not in the preceding movement phase. They don’t necessarily get to double shoot for overwatch.
In any case, as you say, it’s fairly easy to prevent overwatch if your opponent’s paying attention. If anything, a flamer aggressor is at its worst in a big unit, as the enemy can easily charge from a position that’s outside of 8” of him, but a lot closer to other members of the squad.
Yet another example as to why flamers are overcosted and underutilized. Poor Aggressors don't even get to do anything with themselves when out of range, whereas models carrying things like combi-flamers or the infernus heavy bolter aren't just standing around admiring the scenery. If flamers were cheaper, I think they'd be worth sprinkling around for overwatch purposes in those combi forms, but not as a primary weapon until they look at their ranges. My assumption is that GW is backed into a hard place on flamers because it seems to me they don't like the idea of deep striking flamers (even though that sounds so bloody cool and cinematic) and are concerned about the impact of flamers against flying vehicles (because admittedly that is kind of silly).
But alas, that's a discussion for another time and place.
Morale of the story - Flamegressors are bad and they should feel bad
Flamers neeed to be expanded to 10" range. The game desperately needs some anti-horde weaponry worth taking, and 10" flamers might make a dent in the problem.
I'm debating Deathwatch atm. But I can't bring myself to do a repaint and it feels.....wrong.....not to have Deathwatch colours. That and my next big tournament is at WHW and they get picky about that stuff.
Which brings me to: Pure Primaris at 1750 for GT Heat 3. I'm thinking of scaling down my brigade list to the following:
gravis captain
lt with bolter
3x5 intercessors
3x3 aggressors
3x3 inceptors (bolter)
3x5 hellblasters (assault)
will suck against tanks but its a lot of bodies and dakka for the points
Ericthegreen wrote: I'm debating Deathwatch atm. But I can't bring myself to do a repaint and it feels.....wrong.....not to have Deathwatch colours. That and my next big tournament is at WHW and they get picky about that stuff.
Which brings me to: Pure Primaris at 1750 for GT Heat 3. I'm thinking of scaling down my brigade list to the following:
gravis captain
lt with bolter
3x5 intercessors
3x3 aggressors
3x3 inceptors (bolter)
3x5 hellblasters (assault)
will suck against tanks but its a lot of bodies and dakka for the points
That's not enough for a brigade. You need another HQ and 3 more troops - or is that already factored in?
It's an army that could work, unless you come up against IG... or quite a few other things to be honest. Not sure I would recommend it for a qualifier.
That's not enough for a brigade. You need another HQ and 3 more troops - or is that already factored in?
It's an army that could work, unless you come up against IG... or quite a few other things to be honest. Not sure I would recommend it for a qualifier.
apologies. My brigade list is posted a couple of pages back. its this plus a libby and 3 scout units (and rapid fire on the hellblasters instead of assault)
This is a straight battalion.
It's not going to be hugely competitive. But mid table mediocrity with 5 good games i'll be happy with. Like I said, toying with Deathwatch and lumping the aggressors and hellblasters in with inceptor squads but as the army will be painted in chapter colours not deathwatch, i'm sure someone will have an issue with it
EDIT: and have just read the Deatchwatch rules properly. You don't have to mix squads. And they all have combat squads so squad bloat isn't that much of an issue.
That's not enough for a brigade. You need another HQ and 3 more troops - or is that already factored in?
It's an army that could work, unless you come up against IG... or quite a few other things to be honest. Not sure I would recommend it for a qualifier.
apologies. My brigade list is posted a couple of pages back. its this plus a libby and 3 scout units (and rapid fire on the hellblasters instead of assault)
This is a straight battalion.
It's not going to be hugely competitive. But mid table mediocrity with 5 good games i'll be happy with. Like I said, toying with Deathwatch and lumping the aggressors and hellblasters in with inceptor squads but as the army will be painted in chapter colours not deathwatch, i'm sure someone will have an issue with it
Fair enough then. I think that if I were you I'd move fully away from the brigade. You've got units in there now that are paying taxes that you don't need to. You could drop some stuff and add in some anti-tank.
Fair enough then. I think that if I were you I'd move fully away from the brigade. You've got units in there now that are paying taxes that you don't need to. You could drop some stuff and add in some anti-tank.
Oh indeed. That list was built before the upgrades in CP to battalions and brigades. The reason for the brigade was to start the hellblasters and aggressors in double tap range.
As in the edited post above. Having fully read the deathwatch rules - holy hell i might have to swtich
grouchoben wrote: Flamers neeed to be expanded to 10" range. The game desperately needs some anti-horde weaponry worth taking, and 10" flamers might make a dent in the problem.
Flame weapons need the grav-flux bombard rule. 1D3 shots. Every 5 models in a unit = another 1D3 shots. 5 man mobs get hit with 2D3 auto hits. 10 man get 3D3. 30 man gets 7D3, and so on.
I'm finally giving in and I'm about to start work on my Primaris Rainbow Warriors, and I'm wondering how far I'll get with the models I currently own. Obviously this is not a complete army, so I'd like to know what the next recommendations are:
-Anniversary Primaris Captain with Dirty Great Fist
-25th Anniversary Veteran Sergeant ('Brother-Sergeant Birthday Boy')
-12 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles
-5 Terminators from the 7th Edition Starter Box (Dark Vengeance?)
My other armies are Sisters and Chaos Marines so obviously I'm expecting this to be a bit of a change, but how do the new Marines actually play? I've read through the codex enough to see that the best anti-armour options appear to be Heavy Plasma Incinerators from the Helblasters and Grenade Launchers are an automatic take for any squad of intercessors, but otherwise I'm clueless. I'm not really a fan of the Reivers as models, but otherwise I'm open to trying anything with a 'Primaris' in the name!
If it's any help, I usually play with power levels and my regular opponent is Tau and Tyranids.
EDIT: Oh, does anyone have any idea what chapter tactics the Rainbow Warriors should draw from? I think the modern interpretation is that they're successors from the White Scars but until Primaris Bicycles come out I can't really go for that.
According to this http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Rainbow_Warriors they are Ultramarines successors. Ultramarines are a decent tactic. The Ld buff hasn't come into play much for me, but Fall Back and shoot is situationally powerful. Plus you have the option of using Primarch Roboute.
If you build Hellblasters, do not make them Heavy Plasma. The other two options have their pros and cons, but the Heavy 1 profile is not worth the bonus to Strength as far as I'm concerned. Take lascannons instead.
The terminators: can you convert them to TH/SS? Because SB termies are usually underwhelming. But you're right about grenade launchers being an auto-include.
Ultramarine tactic is super strong on stuff like aggressors and leviathan dreads. If there was some way to get it on intercessors with SIA, it woudl be good for them. I'd say use a battalion of DW to get your troops, and then go from there.
Hey, it's your call how you run your rainbow warriors. They may be a UM successor chapter, but you can really choose whatever tactics you want, game by game. Great choice of Chapters, by the way.
i know the hotness is trying to get majority toughness 5, but that's very points expensive and i've been thinking of a slightly different approach. I've had a load of primaris marines on sprues for some time and never finished them because i kept thinking how much more i'd prefer them if the hellblasters were in the squads of intercessors instead of their own thing. Rather than set the goal as going for the majority toughness 5, i'm looking at just making better generalist intercessor squads. intercessors are what benefits from special issue ammo so i wanted to capitalize on that more.
What do you think about;
5 intercessors, 2 hellblasters, 1 aggressor - all with the assault variants of their guns and a sword on the sarg, makes for a 218 point unit. so doesn't break the bank, can advance every turn to help mitigate the lack of transports for primaris, and feels like it would be a well rounded squad. Sure it doesn't have tough 5 and a bazillion guns, but 3 of them is only 654 pts, instead of 1000 pts like many kill teams.
i've also considered instead of running 3, running 2 of these and the 3rd being the exact same thing, just swap out all the guns for the heavy variants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ericthegreen wrote: I'm debating Deathwatch atm. But I can't bring myself to do a repaint and it feels.....wrong.....not to have Deathwatch colours. That and my next big tournament is at WHW and they get picky about that stuff.
Which brings me to: Pure Primaris at 1750 for GT Heat 3. I'm thinking of scaling down my brigade list to the following:
gravis captain
lt with bolter
3x5 intercessors
3x3 aggressors
3x3 inceptors (bolter)
3x5 hellblasters (assault)
will suck against tanks but its a lot of bodies and dakka for the points
This is a bit off topic, but do they really get picky about what color your marines are? I thought the only person who said "you can't use the blood angels codex because your dudes aren't red" was that one creep at every gaming store that no one wants to play against. Hell for mine i'm not going to go buy several $100 in upgrade sprues, i'm painting mine however i see fit, either grey and blue, or possible totally-not-alpha-legion green/blue, call them whatever chapter i make up fluff for, and use the deathwatch codex. As long as you don't try to use fluff to break codex rules and use the codex rules as is I see no way anyone can complain.
I agree on the colours, but it still feels weird. I'm thinking of repurposing my primaris chapter, keeping my yellow scheme, buying more DW pads, and painting the arm/pad black. It would be so much easier, but something's telling me to start a classic black-scheme team.
I've been having fun with all the Fortis possibilities. The truth is, the DW intercessor is such a solid model that it's hard to build a bad squad!
I've enjoyed a barebones squad with just one aggressor in there, as if they reach where you want them to be they can put down roots; your opponent will feel pressure to chew through them to stop that double-tap aggressor who's going to put out 20 shots on his own next round. 137pts is an amount I can live with.
That's an interesting idea, grouchoben. Aggressors are still very efficient even compared to intercessors, so I might want 5 intercessors and 2 aggressors but just adding a few aggressors does a good job of evening out the squad.
Converted my primaris list to pure DeathWatch. Ran my first game and dropped against what is normally my death - a 6 leman russ list backed by drop troopers. Some squads I ran and my results:
5 Intercessors, 3 Agressor (flame), 2 Inceptor:
I had two of these and used the teleportarium stratagem to drop them in round 2. The Intercessors are little more than bullet sponges unfortunately, but the inceptors performed wonderfully. I think it would be better to only have 2 aggressors instead of 3. Then the squad will go to T5 after my first casualty.
5 intercessors, 5 hellblasters
So good. The Intercessors take the initial hits and clean up the dangerous soft targets looking to engage the hellblasters. The hellblasters just blew up one tank after another. It was horrific what 5 hellblasters in rapid fire range can do.
10 stalker bolt rifle intercessors
This was my star squad for killing heavy infantry in the old list. They actually underperform in deathwatch as they get no benefit from kraken rounds and the standard bolter intercessors can match them for range with vengence rounds. Going to try them with the hellblasters, but it might be time to pry off those stalker clips...
10 intercessor bolt rifle intercessors
This squad absorbed a lot of fire once they starting unleashing kraken rounds. They performed pretty well before 1000+pts of Astra Militarum opened up on them.
I miss having the advantage of chapter tactics, but the watch master performed well with the damage boost to his stalker rifle.
i'm currently torn on weapon options for hellblasters with RG chapter tactics.
SftS is better for the rapid fire version, but when you have other units that want to SftS (lookin' at you aggressors), the assault plasma seems to get the most out of the chapter tactics and be throwing shots downfield early.
general consensus seems to be all rapid fire all the time. Is that other people's experience?
ChargerIIC wrote: 5 intercessors, 5 hellblasters
So good. The Intercessors take the initial hits and clean up the dangerous soft targets looking to engage the hellblasters. The hellblasters just blew up one tank after another. It was horrific what 5 hellblasters in rapid fire range can do.
Were you fighting Leman Russes? Were the Hellblasters alone enough to deal with them? How many did you take total? How did you mitigate your marines exploding under Gets Hot?
Really trying to get my Deathwatch army together and anti-vehicle is what I'm struggling to deal with. Would love some pointers.
grouchoben wrote: I agree on the colours, but it still feels weird. I'm thinking of repurposing my primaris chapter, keeping my yellow scheme, buying more DW pads, and painting the arm/pad black. It would be so much easier, but something's telling me to start a classic black-scheme team.
The fun thing about Deathwatch is since they come from so many different Chapters, you can make a few HQs that come from your own custom chapter to really keep them as Your Guys.
ChargerIIC wrote: 5 intercessors, 5 hellblasters
So good. The Intercessors take the initial hits and clean up the dangerous soft targets looking to engage the hellblasters. The hellblasters just blew up one tank after another. It was horrific what 5 hellblasters in rapid fire range can do.
Were you fighting Leman Russes? Were the Hellblasters alone enough to deal with them? How many did you take total? How did you mitigate your marines exploding under Gets Hot?
Really trying to get my Deathwatch army together and anti-vehicle is what I'm struggling to deal with. Would love some pointers.
grouchoben wrote: I agree on the colours, but it still feels weird. I'm thinking of repurposing my primaris chapter, keeping my yellow scheme, buying more DW pads, and painting the arm/pad black. It would be so much easier, but something's telling me to start a classic black-scheme team.
The fun thing about Deathwatch is since they come from so many different Chapters, you can make a few HQs that come from your own custom chapter to really keep them as Your Guys.
Leman Russ tanks - mix of 2 battlecannon and 2 plasma cannon models, with the dreaded (for marines) autocannon turret rounding it out. The hellblasters were good for a tank apiece when in rapid fire range (15"), but before that the stalkers were stripping off the last few wounds to finish the job.
I think 2 hellblaster/intercessor teams is the right amount. I used one, but having a second to do the job of finishing off long range targets or nailing some MEQ would have been nice. I do not recommend stalker pattern bolt rifles. I brought them over from my primaris marine list, but they really don't get much use out of SIA since they hit the AP caps easily enough. My standard bolt rifle marines were generally getting a better use of the SIA rules.
Leman Russ tanks - mix of 2 battlecannon and 2 plasma cannon models, with the dreaded (for marines) autocannon turret rounding it out. The hellblasters were good for a tank apiece when in rapid fire range (15"), but before that the stalkers were stripping off the last few wounds to finish the job.
I think 2 hellblaster/intercessor teams is the right amount. I used one, but having a second to do the job of finishing off long range targets or nailing some MEQ would have been nice. I do not recommend stalker pattern bolt rifles. I brought them over from my primaris marine list, but they really don't get much use out of SIA since they hit the AP caps easily enough. My standard bolt rifle marines were generally getting a better use of the SIA rules.
Sweet. I'll have to give more Hellblasters a shot. I only have 1 squad and they're from Dark Imperium, which means no popping the shoulder pads off. Maybe another 1k game is in order.
As for Deathwatch Intercessor loadouts, I had a lot of success with regular rifles. S4 is always going to be somewhat crummy, but the Rifle profile means you can use hellfire rounds and still give some kind of penalty to armor, which is super sweet, and Kraken rounds were popping dudes from 36" away, much to the frustration of my opponent to get plinked from clear across the table. Also, although this isn't a Deathwatch thread, don't sleep on Stalker Boltguns (30" Heavy 2 S4 AP-1) for the regular veterans. You get half the wounds but twice the firepower of your Intercessors at the same range, assuming they don't move.
ChargerIIC wrote: 5 Intercessors, 3 Agressor (flame), 2 Inceptor:
I had two of these and used the teleportarium stratagem to drop them in round 2. The Intercessors are little more than bullet sponges unfortunately, but the inceptors performed wonderfully. I think it would be better to only have 2 aggressors instead of 3. Then the squad will go to T5 after my first casualty.
That unit actually starts at T5 in the first place. When there's an equal number of mixed toughness, you choose.
Why choose the flamer Aggressors, though? They can't fire the turn they drop in. I think the bolt Aggressors would be better, and with the ablative wounds from the Intercessors, you'll likely be able to fire twice with em. Good to hear the Inceptors did well, though I'm surprised they did so well when the rapid fire Intercessors in that unit have more shots and the same AP, while wounding on 2s.
ChargerIIC wrote: 5 Intercessors, 3 Agressor (flame), 2 Inceptor:
I had two of these and used the teleportarium stratagem to drop them in round 2. The Intercessors are little more than bullet sponges unfortunately, but the inceptors performed wonderfully. I think it would be better to only have 2 aggressors instead of 3. Then the squad will go to T5 after my first casualty.
That unit actually starts at T5 in the first place. When there's an equal number of mixed toughness, you choose.
Why choose the flamer Aggressors, though? They can't fire the turn they drop in. I think the bolt Aggressors would be better, and with the ablative wounds from the Intercessors, you'll likely be able to fire twice with em. Good to hear the Inceptors did well, though I'm surprised they did so well when the rapid fire Intercessors in that unit have more shots and the same AP, while wounding on 2s.
I only own the flamer agressors :p They are primarily there for the power fists and anti-charge (auto-hit 2d6 per model in overwatch). I'm considering the swap to bolter, but the guns aren't much use when the kill team should be in melee as much as possible.
Inceptors are 2d3 shots per model with 2 damage per shot (when supercharging) compared to the 2 shots, 1 damage per intercessor. The ability to just fall back from an annoying counter charge is a plus.
On the mixed toughnes:, if I dropped an aggressor, I'd go down to 4 t5 models and 5 t4 models. I'd be T4 until the first intercessor dropped
ChargerIIC wrote: 5 Intercessors, 3 Agressor (flame), 2 Inceptor:
I had two of these and used the teleportarium stratagem to drop them in round 2. The Intercessors are little more than bullet sponges unfortunately, but the inceptors performed wonderfully. I think it would be better to only have 2 aggressors instead of 3. Then the squad will go to T5 after my first casualty.
That unit actually starts at T5 in the first place. When there's an equal number of mixed toughness, you choose.
Why choose the flamer Aggressors, though? They can't fire the turn they drop in. I think the bolt Aggressors would be better, and with the ablative wounds from the Intercessors, you'll likely be able to fire twice with em. Good to hear the Inceptors did well, though I'm surprised they did so well when the rapid fire Intercessors in that unit have more shots and the same AP, while wounding on 2s.
I only own the flamer agressors :p They are primarily there for the power fists and anti-charge (auto-hit 2d6 per model in overwatch). I'm considering the swap to bolter, but the guns aren't much use when the kill team should be in melee as much as possible.
Inceptors are 2d3 shots per model with 2 damage per shot (when supercharging) compared to the 2 shots, 1 damage per intercessor. The ability to just fall back from an annoying counter charge is a plus.
On the mixed toughnes:, if I dropped an aggressor, I'd go down to 4 t5 models and 5 t4 models. I'd be T4 until the first intercessor dropped
Why would that squad be in melee? They do way better damage outside of melee...
Sorry, thought you had bolter Inceptors. You also mentioned you'd drop an Aggressor to fit in another Inceptor - that's 5 and 5.
Has anyone tried the Repulsor? Has anyone actually used the model and done something besides look at it and go "too expensive" or "it'll just die?" Cuz I'm looking at it a little more closely - especially with Deathwatch and their (probable) relic rule that lets vehicles get Mission Tactics with their Tome of the Ectoclades - and this thing is sporting a stupid amount of firepower, as well as being able to carry mixed intercessors with Deathwatch. 5 Intercessors, 4 Hellblasters, 1 Librarian.
I'm looking at a loadout of twin lascannon, 18 S5 shots from the gatling cannons, 2D6+9-15 S4 shots from 3 storm bolters, 2 fragstorm launchers, and heavy stubber (with a nifty -1 AP), and a silly 2 S6 shots from the krakstorm launcher.
It's slow, but it just means footslogging HQs can keep it in their auras. What do you think?
The repulsor might work if you bring a Deredeo, too. That makes it more comparable to an IK. But having no invuln and 300+ points for 16W is not great.
I believe Insectum uses them and does quite well. I used to use one before my first 8th edition SM army was stolen. They can lay down an amazing amount of dakka. My advice is take as many fragstorm launchers as possible. The repulsor field is a nice little trick as well.
The base repulsor will catch every high AP weapon the enemy has, especially while loaded, because some unlucky 1's kill expensive primaris marines. Crap like the Doomsday Ark and Broadside teams make this thing a real gamble. The 5++ from the Deredeo is like giving it a total of 24W. Totally worth it. The repulsor need to be at least 50 pts cheaper to operate on its own.
You cannot run a Repulsor on its own. You want him in a reroll bubble, make use of its transport capacity to reduce your drops and have other vehicles in your army so it isnt your only tank.
I have him with Guilliman, Tigurius and a Fire Raptor. That way i can get -1 to hit or MoH for that sweet T9 on him. The Repulsor usually carries Hellblasters, a Lieutenant and an Ancient. If you are going Primaris only it is your only source for lascannons.
I run a Repulsor a lot with my RG primaris, and Martel is right, the lack of invuln makes it a bit of a piñata. It is a great tank thugh, having said that.
I normally run it with lascannons, double gatlings, 3 stormbolters and 2 fraglaunchers for 334pts. It lets you tuck away your hqs to get minimum drops, and with support is a really good gun platform. I personally think you have to commit it to a flank, to reduce the amount of shots it will take. It melts to parking lot guard.
Hate to bring it back to DW again, but the shield relic on a cap is a BIG deal for the repuslor, so that when you lose initiative it has that sweet 5++. Finally, Might of Heroes is obligatory on the guy, as T9 is a big deal for you opponent.
Other things I like about it: it's so mobile, and can't be tied down in cc.
Hellblasters do great work against tanks. I have not run them against Leman Russes, though I have against Land Raiders which should give similar results. I had 1 unit of 10 that super-charged with a Chapter Master buff. 4 of them were in Rapid Fire and the other 6 were not and I brought the Land Raider down to 2 wounds remaining in one volley.
My plan is to run Intercessors with 1 Plasma Inceptor and some Hellblasters and see how that works. Not sure on the number of Hellblasters yet, but I will probably start with 4 and work down from there.
grouchoben wrote: @Mandragola plays two at GT level, and he's had a bit of success with them. I think 2 certainly helps, so it ain't crazy-sounding to me!
It just seems that running 1/3 of your list as two tanks with no invuln save at all is completely nuts. Repulsors cost so much that almost every Str 5 weapon in the game is cost effective against them.
grouchoben wrote: @Mandragola plays two at GT level, and he's had a bit of success with them. I think 2 certainly helps, so it ain't crazy-sounding to me!
It just seems that running 1/3 of your list as two tanks with no invuln save at all is completely nuts. Repulsors cost so much that almost every Str 5 weapon in the game is cost effective against them.
Sounds worth testing:
340 points is the cost of the Repulsor kit I like, so we'll pit 340 points worth of S5 weapons and see how much damage we can deal. I'm not going to include the cost of the models carrying them, because that would be unfair. For the sake of hilarity, I'll add some S6 and S7 weapons as well.
I'm not sure that's the best analysis, but I'm actually shocked at how many wounds those weapons actually cause. Turns out that when the target is over 20 pts/wound, lots of weapons are cost effective.
Compare to what's cost effective vs Leman Russ sitting at a paltry 13 ish pts/W for an average build. The answer is a lot fewer options.
The repulsor needs to be down closer the Russ in terms of pts/W to be a viable choice, imo.
grouchoben wrote: @Mandragola plays two at GT level, and he's had a bit of success with them. I think 2 certainly helps, so it ain't crazy-sounding to me!
It just seems that running 1/3 of your list as two tanks with no invuln save at all is completely nuts. Repulsors cost so much that almost every Str 5 weapon in the game is cost effective against them.
Same goes for all those 3-7 flyer lists, yet we keep seeing the darn things. Must be something to bringing that much solid metal to the table.
Having 1/3 of the list be 2 models vs 3-7 models is VERY different. Those flyers are bringing FAR more wounds to the table and many have -1 to hit. The repulsor enjoys no such benefits without sinking even more points into the adventure. Like Tiggy, who can only buff one chapter. It's also worth noting that T9 doesn't help vs S5-7 weapons at all, which are the evolving meta.
I'd feel better about the repulsor if it also made the occupants immune to explosion death. But the guy who lost 4 hellblasters to repulsor explosion conceded on the spot. "Insta slay" mechanics are super harsh for primaris.
Primaris are close. They need the meta steered away from 2 damage spam, and some more mobility options. And maybe a couple more units. Heavy weapons that AREN'T plasma for starters.
In my play group, quantum shields tipped the meta completely against primaris. 2-3 damage spam is the new king, because no one wants to bring expensive weapons that can't demech Necrons.
Martel732 wrote: I'm not sure that's the best analysis, but I'm actually shocked at how many wounds those weapons actually cause. Turns out that when the target is over 20 pts/wound, lots of weapons are cost effective.
Compare to what's cost effective vs Leman Russ sitting at a paltry 13 ish pts/W for an average build. The answer is a lot fewer options.
The repulsor needs to be down closer the Russ in terms of pts/W to be a viable choice, imo.
Maybe when the Repulsor can't fly or transport units, only hits on 4s, and only has at most 4 guns. You pay for a dakkabox.
Primark G wrote: When I ran a Repulsor Tigirius made it -1 to hit and T9. Good times.
That sounds disgusting. I'm hoping to keep mine near a Watch Master for reroll hits and giving him the tome of ectoclades to give them access to the mission tactics.
"Maybe when the Repulsor can't fly or transport units, only hits on 4s, and only has at most 4 guns. You pay for a dakkabox."
Those things just aren't worth it. Not to go from 13 pts/W to over 20 pts/W. None of the repulsor's special abilities help it survive incoming fire, and that just kills it. I'm not even sure how effective the repulsor's armament is in the current meta. It needs to be a lot cheaper, or gun lines need to pay more for their guns.
Leman Russes are hot garbage. All you have to do is charge them and they can't shoot next turn. Harlequins completely shut them down. They are not worth any points and pretty much just for casual play so you can make pew pew sounds.
So Onegars and razorbacks and predators and devs and reapers and immortals and obliterators are all "hot garbage" too, because "All you have to do is charge them and they can't shoot next turn"?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel, I agree that Repulsors need a defensive buff - that's why I think they might work quite well in DW, with the Storm shield relic for the 5++, and 1s rerolls, on a jumpcap.
grouchoben wrote: @Mandragola plays two at GT level, and he's had a bit of success with them. I think 2 certainly helps, so it ain't crazy-sounding to me!
It just seems that running 1/3 of your list as two tanks with no invuln save at all is completely nuts. Repulsors cost so much that almost every Str 5 weapon in the game is cost effective against them.
Same goes for all those 3-7 flyer lists, yet we keep seeing the darn things. Must be something to bringing that much solid metal to the table.
Primark G wrote: Leman Russes are hot garbage. All you have to do is charge them and they can't shoot next turn. Harlequins completely shut them down. They are not worth any points and pretty much just for casual play so you can make pew pew sounds.
I respectfully disagree in anything but top tier competitive play. Leman Russ Conquerors are an amazing unit and I read in many places people complaining about how solid of a unit the Russ is. It's cheap for how durable it is and not at all a horrible unit. When you bring 6+ with proper amounts of chaff you can't tie them all down.
depends on your local meta, but the games in this area, over past few months (with a few exceptions) folks have stoped takeing vehicles for the most part, the las-cannon spam is just insane. Repulsor is nice, but most of the time, mine is dead by end of turn 1, even I have stoped bringing any sort of vehicle, or even dreadnaught.
Nowadays i run an ultramarine primaris(mostly) infantry brigade
HQ= Primaris Captain, Librarian, Lieutenant
Troops= 6x intercessor squads (5)
Elites= 2x riever squads(5), 1 primaris Ancient
FA= 3x Inceptor Squads (3)
HS= it WAS 3x hellblaster squads,but they tended to get shot off the board by turn 1 majority of the time, recently ive used old school devestator squads with 2 lascannons, 1 missile launcher, 1 heavy bolter in each
dont get me wrong, hellblasters are nice, but are serious bullet magnets and lack the RANGE and punch of a lascannon
missile launcher/heavy bolter opend up the hellfire shell/flakk missile stratagemns, and now starting out with 15 command points makes these extremly viable options
because of the way the game has evolved in my local meta, ive also gone with nothing but assault bolters on the inceptors
I rate assault bolter inceptors. For their price, they put out some serious dakka.
My brigade list is posted a couple of pages back. How do you find 6 intercessor squads? I used 3 scouts/3 intercessor split to give me pockets to deep strike in and avoidance of the alpha strike.
I also love me some aggressors, so the cheaper scouts paid for upgrading those reivers and ancient to be gun buddies.
Of course, raven guard chapter tactics helped, but run and gun aggressors with ultras still do some work
I've finally had a couple of games with my primaris army. I need to take time to reflect on the games properly but I have made two observations so far.
1) auxiliary grenade launchers are over hyped. I just ran the math on them against the targets I thought everyone was using them for. 1 in 9 shots becomes a failed save on T7 3+. So, identical to the bolt rifle single shot prior to considering damage.
2) I need to put the objectives in the middle of the table because my army needs to move forward and push the enemy into their deployment zone. Hanging back in my own zone to hold objectives prevents me ever double tapping with all of my rapid fire guns.
For reference, I am using all infantry primaris crimson fists.
Allowing an enemy to stay far away from me is bad. I need to be in the middle.
S6 is decent right now. Your math being focused on t7 is skewing your conclusion. Run it against a custodes list or drukhari or knights (3 v. Common factions) and it has much better damage, for 1pt.
Circling back very quickly to the repulsor tank discussion, if you're all that bothered about it not having an invuln save, one could park a deredeo dreadnought near it.
Admitted it's more points and isn't a primaris only unit, but it can be handy. I'm looking at one in general for my primaris raven guard force, figuring a dread with similar stats to a redemptor dread isn't too bad a departure from the all primaris all the time theme. It shouldn't look out of place anyway.
Just got done reading this thread....(quite the read)
I'm curious about some of you vets out there about your thoughts on the Primaris Lieutenants. What's the usual limit for you for a 1500-2000 pt force? How do you use them?
Would maxing out a Supreme Command Detachment of Primaris LTs be a bit much?
Zustiur wrote: I've finally had a couple of games with my primaris army. I need to take time to reflect on the games properly but I have made two observations so far.
1) auxiliary grenade launchers are over hyped. I just ran the math on them against the targets I thought everyone was using them for. 1 in 9 shots becomes a failed save on T7 3+. So, identical to the bolt rifle single shot prior to considering damage.
2) I need to put the objectives in the middle of the table because my army needs to move forward and push the enemy into their deployment zone. Hanging back in my own zone to hold objectives prevents me ever double tapping with all of my rapid fire guns.
For reference, I am using all infantry primaris crimson fists.
Allowing an enemy to stay far away from me is bad. I need to be in the middle.
Aux Grenade Launchers are just a point. It isn't overhyped at all. Just don't shoot the Krak at single wound targets and use the Frag on gaunt equivalents or daemon troops.
grouchoben wrote: S6 is decent right now. Your math being focused on t7 is skewing your conclusion. Run it against a custodes list or drukhari or knights (3 v. Common factions) and it has much better damage, for 1pt.
Very true. It's being skewed because I keep facing a mechanized list. If I fight drukhari things might be completely different. I'm sick of wave serpents.
I'm curious about some of you vets out there about your thoughts on the Primaris Lieutenants. What's the usual limit for you for a 1500-2000 pt force? How do you use them?
Would maxing out a Supreme Command Detachment of Primaris LTs be a bit much?
In my experience thus far, having 2 is more than I really need. They're not doing enough for me right now. Perhaps if they had stalker rifles, or if I ever got into combat I might feel differently.
I'm curious about some of you vets out there about your thoughts on the Primaris Lieutenants. What's the usual limit for you for a 1500-2000 pt force? How do you use them?
Would maxing out a Supreme Command Detachment of Primaris LTs be a bit much?
Primaris Lieutenants are massively overpriced. Compare to a standard Captain. For four points more, you get +1 BS, +1 Ld, 4+ invulnerable save, better aura and much better weapon options. It is ludicrous. Only reason to ever take a Lieutenat is that if you want to combine his aura with that of the Captain, or you need to put him into a Repulsor and absolutely cannot afford the 17 points for a Primaris Captain upgrade. This leads to a strange situation (from fluff perspective) where the army is more likely to have multiple Captains than multiple Lieutenants.
For the reasons pointed out above I would never take a Primaris LT if I was not really going pure Primaris 100%. The re-roll to wound aura is solid and does come up a lot so its a great tool to have, but the paying the extra 14 or so points on top of a standard LT is not worth it.
If you’re running repulsors then Primaris Lieutenants (and captains) are a decent option. They can deploy in the repulsors, thereby reducing your drop count. You’ll also tend to have a lot of stuff in their buff auras, once you count the tanks and whoever else was inside them at the start of the game.
Lieutenants are better in partnership with a special character, so that they can have a relic. A friend plays dark angels and runs Azrael, so his lieutenant has a great relic power sword. There isn’t really a great selection of weapons to give to a vanilla lieutenant unfortunately, though the 2+/3++ (once) armour is ok.
The downside is that so far none of the special characters are Primaris, meaning they don’t combo all that well with repulsors. That said, chapter master buffs are really good news for repulsors, and marke them extremely difficult to charge.
I'm curious about some of you vets out there about your thoughts on the Primaris Lieutenants. What's the usual limit for you for a 1500-2000 pt force? How do you use them?
Would maxing out a Supreme Command Detachment of Primaris LTs be a bit much?
Primaris Lieutenants are massively overpriced. Compare to a standard Captain. For four points more, you get +1 BS, +1 Ld, 4+ invulnerable save, better aura and much better weapon options. It is ludicrous. Only reason to ever take a Lieutenat is that if you want to combine his aura with that of the Captain, or you need to put him into a Repulsor and absolutely cannot afford the 17 points for a Primaris Captain upgrade. This leads to a strange situation (from fluff perspective) where the army is more likely to have multiple Captains than multiple Lieutenants.
Thats exactly why im bringing thjs up...from a fluff perspective. I've always been a fluff player and it just sounds to me that Robbie G is busting balls across the galaxy with his new Primaris boys. Probably surrounded by a trusty cohort of LTs doing his bidding. I was seriously considering building a "Hero" Ultramarine army like a Custodies force, but without the Golden Boys. Corny, but with character.
Thats exactly why im bringing thjs up...from a fluff perspective. I've always been a fluff player and it just sounds to me that Robbie G is busting balls across the galaxy with his new Primaris boys. Probably surrounded by a trusty cohort of LTs doing his bidding. I was seriously considering building a "Hero" Ultramarine army like a Custodies force, but without the Golden Boys. Corny, but with character.
Well, you can do it, but it is probably massively suboptimal even in a casual setting. The point of Lt's is to buff other units, they gotta have those units to buff. As melee beatsticks they're really underwhelming, as GW refuses to give the primaris characters proper weapon options.
I'm curious about some of you vets out there about your thoughts on the Primaris Lieutenants. What's the usual limit for you for a 1500-2000 pt force? How do you use them?
Would maxing out a Supreme Command Detachment of Primaris LTs be a bit much?
Primaris Lieutenants are massively overpriced. Compare to a standard Captain. For four points more, you get +1 BS, +1 Ld, 4+ invulnerable save, better aura and much better weapon options. It is ludicrous. Only reason to ever take a Lieutenat is that if you want to combine his aura with that of the Captain, or you need to put him into a Repulsor and absolutely cannot afford the 17 points for a Primaris Captain upgrade. This leads to a strange situation (from fluff perspective) where the army is more likely to have multiple Captains than multiple Lieutenants.
A supreme command detachment of lieutenants would be mad. The point of them is the buffs they hand out - not the damage they do, which is negligible. Plus it’s sometimes handy to have a character running around, in missions like the relic or ascension.
On the other hand, running a Primaris captain and lieutenant can provide a bubble of buffs not unlike Bobby G’s, for far fewer points. This allows you to spend more on guns. They also use up the two HQ slots of a battalion, usefully. My crimson fist primaris captain with fist of vengeance is a proper beatstick character, for only 106 points, and 180 once you add the LT. Between them they can buff an awful lot of things, especially since I started giving the captain the chapter master upgrade.
My favourite load-out was 2x5 rapid fire hellblasters in a repulsor, with 4 aggressors and my two characters in a second repulsor. All that stuff gets buffed by both auras, resulting in some pretty serious firepower.
On the other hand Bobby G costs 400 points and you still have to fill your HQ allowance, with characters whose buffs are somewhat superfluous.
Corennus wrote: Has anyone considered using Primaris Rhinos? they're an HQ option...
I use a primaris rhino with my imperial fists, the +1 to hit in the shooting phase is neat. Aggressors proccing bolter drill on a 5+ rerolling 1,2s is more hits than dice i own. Safe overcharging with hellblasters is sweet too.
Is anyone else finding it difficult to hug their deployment zone? It's probably an artefact of running all infantry, but I keep getting out ranged. And with nearly every model having rapid fire, I really need to be in the middle of the board to get within 15".
Zustiur wrote: Is anyone else finding it difficult to hug their deployment zone? It's probably an artefact of running all infantry, but I keep getting out ranged. And with nearly every model having rapid fire, I really need to be in the middle of the board to get within 15".
Marines (primaris and otherwise) don't want to hold *all* the way back. They want to be within rapid fire range against shooting armies and just out of charge range against melee armies. Expect to do a lot of turn 1 walking forward followed by a couple turns of walking backwards to force your opponent to eat more shooting. The vehicles are en exception of course, but most of the non-dreadnoughts ones barely fit amongst the terrain anyway.
I feel like the Primaris LT can help buff the army a bit more if you run the Storm of Fire Warlord trait. Getting more 6s for even better AP is never a bad thing after all.
That said, it comes down to how concentrated your army is. If you're running a small bubble of some kind, then it's going to benefit you more to cram more stuff in there. If you only support a unit with re-rolls as needed, then cramming him into a list isn't as helpful.
That said, the other possible use for him would to be buffing Hellblasters to make them better at taking down high toughness targets. Especially good if you run Assault Plasma as S6 starts to struggle at higher toughnesses.
at 1750, I was running a gravis captain and primaris lt. It worked OK, but when i switched my 9 bolter inceptors to 6 plasma inceptors, I had spare points left over to make that lt a libby. I haven't regretted it yet.
So here is a question, one I'm sure is heard on every faction tactic thread ad nauseum, where do I go from here? I have both little starter kits, plus easy build Intercessor and Reiver kits and the big honkin Redemptor. This is how I've been running it for about 1000 points.
Grav Captain w/Burning Blade
Primaris Lieutenant w/ MC Stalker Rifle
7x Intercessors w/ Bolt Rifles
6x Reivers w/ HB-Pistols & CCBs
5x Helblasters w/ Plasma Incinerators
3x Inceptors w/ Assault Bolters
Redemptor w/ Onslaught Gatling Cannons, ofc!
I painted them gold and called them Ultramarine spec-ops. Basically the super secret chapter Gulliman uses when gak needs done and the UM name can't be tarnished, but UM godliness is still required. So I use the UM CT for them... I basically just castle my gunline with my reroll support and when the enemy closes I fall back and blast em. It's cheeky, frustrating and when the Grav Captain heroics in for a beatdown people hate me, but... it's not all that. How do I expand? Obviously the choices are limited since the line is so small but what are my best options? Should I get moar P-Marines or just use these guys as an allied detachment and build 1000 points of some other Imperium army?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also for what it's worth I feel like I get the best mileage out of the vanilla versions of the bolt rifle and plasma gun. The variants are kinda nice, like the Heavy 1 Stalker on the leiutenant who rarely moves is good, but the AP and rapid fire of the Bolt Rifle just seems like the all around best. At worst it negates cover and at best it drops termies to a 3+, not too shabby. Same goes for the plasma gun, the Heavy and assault versions are situationally good but the rapid fire is simply better against more targets.
Don't bother with The Burning Blade. At all. You have a Power Fist with that Master Crafted Sword. The Ultramarine relic for the 3++ or the 2+ armor would serve you better.
SputnikDX wrote: Has anyone tried the Repulsor? Has anyone actually used the model and done something besides look at it and go "too expensive" or "it'll just die?" Cuz I'm looking at it a little more closely - especially with Deathwatch and their (probable) relic rule that lets vehicles get Mission Tactics with their Tome of the Ectoclades - and this thing is sporting a stupid amount of firepower, as well as being able to carry mixed intercessors with Deathwatch. 5 Intercessors, 4 Hellblasters, 1 Librarian.
I'm looking at a loadout of twin lascannon, 18 S5 shots from the gatling cannons, 2D6+9-15 S4 shots from 3 storm bolters, 2 fragstorm launchers, and heavy stubber (with a nifty -1 AP), and a silly 2 S6 shots from the krakstorm launcher.
It's slow, but it just means footslogging HQs can keep it in their auras. What do you think?
I run 2 all dakka repulsors, 3 predators with autocannon and heavy bolters, Bobby G, Techmarine, 2 BA captains, 3 BA scouts. It is absolutely brutal. At ATC I couldn’t run the BA so took an Ultramarine smash Captain, 3 Scouts and a Thunderfire cannons. I scored tons of points all weekend. I was paired against 2 knight armies that weekend and killed 5/6 Knights. I faced one horde army and cleared the table of all but 2 small units. I faced an Eldar/DE army and left him with a raider in the corner of the board and a warlock.
The Bobby G rerolls on the dakka repulsors just put a ton of wounds on everything. Knights were losing 7-10 wounds each shooting phase from repulsor (max str 5 guns, no lascannon). Killshot on the predators made them a priority target, but the repulsor did all the work.
Keep in mind the repulsor flies and never gets shut down by tagging it in Assault. As a fly vehicle it can go up levels in ruins and avoid assaults by non fly units, non infantry units. Anything assaulting a repulsor is -2 to charge it. This is huge.
At 311pts the Repulsor is well worth the points, but only with Bobby G. There was a noticeable drop off in productivity whenever one strayed away from his reroll aura.
Yeah, I rarely use the Burning Blade but since I already greenstuffed a custom flaming sword onto my Grav Captain I like to have the option for a more reliable swing.
Honestly I'm thinking maybe 1000 points of Primaris is all that's really needed. I have allied them to my Biel Tan Eldar a few times to great effect, so maybe I'll look into another ally? Perhaps Imperial Guard, always loved them Leman Russ tanks!
darkcloak wrote: Yeah, I rarely use the Burning Blade but since I already greenstuffed a custom flaming sword onto my Grav Captain I like to have the option for a more reliable swing.
Honestly I'm thinking maybe 1000 points of Primaris is all that's really needed. I have allied them to my Biel Tan Eldar a few times to great effect, so maybe I'll look into another ally? Perhaps Imperial Guard, always loved them Leman Russ tanks!
I mean it CAN just be a malfunctioning power sword. And now it's on fire!
Honestly I'm thinking maybe 1000 points of Primaris is all that's really needed. I have allied them to my Biel Tan Eldar a few times to great effect, so maybe I'll look into another ally? Perhaps Imperial Guard, always loved them Leman Russ tanks!
Repulsor [16 PL, 316pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Auto Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Ironhail Heavy Stubber, 2x Krakstorm Grenade Launcher, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon
++ Total: [100 PL, 1750pts] ++
I've kind of based it on the models that you get from Dark Imperium (that's why the Intercessors and Inceptors have the default weapon choice)
Any advice on actually making the list even semi-viable would be great.
Oh and also haven't decided which Chapter Tactic to go for.
Lastly,
- What are the most optimal weapon choices for Units in general?
Since Intercessors and Inceptors and Hellblasters seem to have Assault, Rapid Fire and Heavy versions... wasn't sure really what to take.
For intercessors and hellblasters the go to weapon is almost always the rapid fire with occasionally their being a use for the assault options (but that's mostly in deathwatch) and never a use for the heavy (they're garbage in both cases". The aggressor bolt version is strictly better than the incredibly limited flamer version. Inceptors have a use with both plasma and bolter. It largely depends on what you use them for, but typically I've gone with the bolter versions.
Repulsors as a unit are pretty bad. They're very expensive for what they do and as it has a credible amount of firepower it will get focused pretty heavily so its dead turn 1 or t2 if you're lucky. The redemptor dread is not awful, but its's not a standout choice by any means. Funnily enough it works best with the sneaky beaky raven guard boys due to the -1 to hit being a big deal for a vehicle in particular.
With that out of the way for chapter tactics we have a few solid options.
Raven Guard - The go to for most lists due to how universally useful the -1 to hit is. I hate -1 to hit and wish it was removed from the game, but as it is I suggest using it. The chapter tactic is very good and the stratagem can be MASSIVE as you can build your entire army around it. You could have a massive alpha strike using it and it has GROSS synergy with aggressors, hellblasters and the banner. Forward deploy a bunch of boyos and screen them with intercessors. If you go first you light everyone up with 19 shots an aggressor on average and 2 shots a hellblasters all re-rolling to hit (Use the chapter master upgrade for the captain) and re-rolling 1s to wound. Also you took the relic banner because you are a smart guy so if they do kill a guy he fires back on a 3+ so even if they do get first you can still put down serious damage. --- It's a very single minded strategy, but it can win you games.
Ultramarines can work based entirely off of the fact that they have the massive force multiplier that is Guiliman. If you don't want to use him then I'd avoid ultramarines as raven guard will do it better.
Deathwatch are the best option for pure Primaris I'd say. SIA makes intercessors a big threat and the ability to mix squads is very helpful for keeping your aggressors, inceptors and hellblasters alive. They also have access to better stratagems than the other options (outside the niche raven guard alpha set up).
Blood Angels I had a lot of fun with. Their superior melee skills can give intercessors a bit of boost and their relic banner grants a 5+++ aura of ignore wounds so that is cool. They gave great supporting characters and the librarian dread to flesh out your options a bit.
Also never forget the FW Chaplain dreadnought. It's a great HQ choice that can bring the hurt all the while being hidden via the character rule. It can also pack a twin lascannon to bring invaluable anti-tank to the Primaris line that largely lacks anti tank outside of over charged plasma.
I feel like there is a bit more nuance to the chapter tactics options, but as an Imperial Fists player that's likely my bias showing.
Deathwatch is undoubtably our top dog, no doubt. It has the flexibility to make our shooting effective, the mixed units give bonuses that we desperately need and basically they're Primaris+1. To be fair, they're supposed to be so I can't fault the army for that.
Next up would be Dark Angels, namely because they can do more for plasma than any other option we've got access to and since plasma is the main focus of our anti-tank and anti-elite this becomes fairly important.
Blood Angels makes our reasonably good (at least when compared to regular Marines) combat better, as does Space Wolves, but neither really does anything for our shooting which is what we need to build an army around. That said, if you like the armies playing aggressive and punching things when you charge after shooting will be better than the rest of the options in this list. Reivers look better for these guys than anyone else.
Raven Guard are basically one of the best choices for any marine army, but even more so for an all Primaris one. Since our CP usage is mostly reroll based (save for the use of Chapter Master) you can be very aggressive with this army and lay the hurt down fast. Plus due to when you place infiltrators you can place them somewhere defensive if you end up going second.
Ultramarines with Guilliman are our next best shooting option, basically forming a large bubble that moves up and claims ground and tries to hold it. Dropping Guilliman for a Chapter Master'd Primaris CPT basically gives you the same effect (rerolling everything) in a smaller bubble but is easier to fit into a list and frees up points for more bodies in your army. Just don't bother with trying to form a castle in your deployment zone unless you're playing against an aggressive melee focused army since you'll need to move in order to be in range with your guns.
Imperial Fists are the next option I see worth mentioning, namely because ignoring cover can help murder xenos and Guard more effectively. Basically one of the better offensive buffs, they basically play like the UM minus Guilliman, but with more teeth in uprooting stuff that likes to hang out in cover (snipers, guard, ect).
I feel like the Repulsor isn't as bad as mentioned, but that comes down to your meta. If you play somewhere that is still gearing up to kill hordes it'll do a good job as a means of reducing your drops and bringing solid fire support. If you play somewhere that is geared up more for killing Knights, then leave it at home and go MSU and fill as many slots as you can for as much CP as you can. Even if we don't have as many things we can spend CP on, a fair bit of what's left is pricy and it's worth having as much as you can to have some flexibility in how you use it.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: For intercessors and hellblasters the go to weapon is almost always the rapid fire with occasionally their being a use for the assault options (but that's mostly in deathwatch) and never a use for the heavy (they're garbage in both cases".
Actually, I found a use for heavy bolt rifles. I agree with Tibs, except in the case that you, like me, are running pure infantry primaris. It's nice to have one or two units you can leave on your rear objective(s) while the rest of your army advances as a blob.
This concept could also work with hellblasters, but only if they are Dark angels, who won't need a captain as a baby sitter. Grim Resolve gives them the reroll they need.
Process wrote: Hi guys, has anybody had any experience running multiple redemptors? 3 to be exact, can they be effective? in either loadout?
thanks
General rule for playing Marines for running the big stuff has been to run at minimum 2, but preferably 3 to ensure to dilute the effectiveness of your opponent's shooting.
That said, it's going to come down to how much big stuff you got in your list and how much anti-tank you regularly see in your local meta.
Process wrote: Hi guys, has anybody had any experience running multiple redemptors? 3 to be exact, can they be effective? in either loadout?
thanks
I've run two. One quickbuild (which is an anti-hordes config) and one with the exact opposite options (which is a cheaper, crappier anti-hordes config) I generally deep strike them right next to the biggest model count units and have them dig in. Most of the units int eh game don't get better than a -1 to AP in melee, so a single redemptor can be a hell of a roadblock. The fact that they can drop and eat other light armor units with the STR14 melee attacks is pretty good.
I prefer the Heavy Onslaught cannon hands down - like most dreadnought plasma weapons, the plasma cannon just doesn't have enough attacks to make it worthwhile. The Icarus Rocket Pod is an auto-include as it can help mitigate a few bad attack rolls and threaten flyers.
I personally prefer a Redemptor (with onslaught cannon) and a dual melee contemptor. One drops against he biggest horde threat and the other against the biggest armor threat.
I expect anti tank to go through the roof with Knights about. I was thinking of running 3 with full gat and icarus loadout. I suppose my real worry is that its 600+pts gone in the first turn.
Process wrote: I expect anti tank to go through the roof with Knights about. I was thinking of running 3 with full gat and icarus loadout. I suppose my real worry is that its 600+pts gone in the first turn.
The bigger worry is that a redemptor won't do much more than scratch the paint on a knight in the shooting phase and in melee it's about the same as the similar priced Contemptor but not as durable. The contemptor can also take a multi-melta, which can carve a chunk out of knight if it connects.
If you are Deathwatch you can deepstrike the dreadnoughts. Otherwise, you'll need to take advantage of as much terrain as you can or switch to fielding something like hellblasters that can do mass plasma damage.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: For intercessors and hellblasters the go to weapon is almost always the rapid fire with occasionally their being a use for the assault options (but that's mostly in deathwatch) and never a use for the heavy (they're garbage in both cases".
Actually, I found a use for heavy bolt rifles. I agree with Tibs, except in the case that you, like me, are running pure infantry primaris. It's nice to have one or two units you can leave on your rear objective(s) while the rest of your army advances as a blob.
This concept could also work with hellblasters, but only if they are Dark angels, who won't need a captain as a baby sitter. Grim Resolve gives them the reroll they need.
Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.
Process wrote: I expect anti tank to go through the roof with Knights about. I was thinking of running 3 with full gat and icarus loadout. I suppose my real worry is that its 600+pts gone in the first turn.
The bigger worry is that a redemptor won't do much more than scratch the paint on a knight in the shooting phase and in melee it's about the same as the similar priced Contemptor but not as durable. The contemptor can also take a multi-melta, which can carve a chunk out of knight if it connects.
If you are Deathwatch you can deepstrike the dreadnoughts. Otherwise, you'll need to take advantage of as much terrain as you can or switch to fielding something like hellblasters that can do mass plasma damage.
Once again, please don't use the Multi-Melta. It's a bad weapon.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: With that out of the way for chapter tactics we have a few solid options.
Raven Guard - The go to for most lists due to how universally useful the -1 to hit is. I hate -1 to hit and wish it was removed from the game, but as it is I suggest using it. The chapter tactic is very good and the stratagem can be MASSIVE as you can build your entire army around it. You could have a massive alpha strike using it and it has GROSS synergy with aggressors, hellblasters and the banner. Forward deploy a bunch of boyos and screen them with intercessors. If you go first you light everyone up with 19 shots an aggressor on average and 2 shots a hellblasters all re-rolling to hit (Use the chapter master upgrade for the captain) and re-rolling 1s to wound. Also you took the relic banner because you are a smart guy so if they do kill a guy he fires back on a 3+ so even if they do get first you can still put down serious damage. --- It's a very single minded strategy, but it can win you games.
Deathwatch are the best option for pure Primaris I'd say. SIA makes intercessors a big threat and the ability to mix squads is very helpful for keeping your aggressors, inceptors and hellblasters alive. They also have access to better stratagems than the other options (outside the niche raven guard alpha set up).
I'm currently struggling to make the decision between Ravenguard, Deathwatch and Dark Angels for a pure primaris infantry army.
Ravenguard has the aggressors in double tap range turn 1 and the entire army is usually -1 to hit, and assault weapons help with kiting. Deathwatch is the more aggressive side - better bolters, aggressors deep striking. I'm not sure how to make up the mixed squads yet as its max size of 10 and what i'd really like to do is give the hellblasters an aggressor buddy so they can run and gun. Dark Angels is purely about WOTDA and using the extra range of the assault guns to enable more standing still. best set of psychic powers for them too.
I don't personally think 'better' covers the difference between a bolter and an SIA Stormbolter.
They are night and day in terms of threat. 10 vets with storm bolters and WM support can delete a Daemon Prince in one round of firing. Drop 9 damage on a Russ (using the doctrine). Kill 26 Boyz. DW vets are exponentially more deadly than any other marine troop choice. I think they're not making an impact in tournaments right now, but will when people start to integrate them into soup.
In terms of Primaris, I myself use primaris legs alongside vet bodies, heads, arms and weapons to make my vet killteams; they look a bit shorter than Primaris, but by the right amount. It's an option worth considering when you're weighing up your new army choice
grouchoben wrote: I don't personally think 'better' covers the difference between a bolter and an SIA Stormbolter.
They are night and day in terms of threat.
They are. The increase in firepower makes the army posted above a threat from every single unit, rather than giving the enemy the opportunity to ignore the intercessors.
HOWEVER, universal -1 to hit is very, very good. There's enough plasma there that the Dark Angels probably lose out, but it's a true toss up between ravenguard and deathwatch, even without the benefits of mixed squads.
Yeah deathwatch stormbolters are excellent. Not really anything to do with Primaris tactics, but that’s ok.
Someone I know ran an army with 3x10 squads of deathwatch vets. Each had 7 vets, a terminator, vanguard vet and bike. They all had stormbolters and three vets had stormshields. Together with a lot of other horrible stuff (a guard battalion and BA supreme command) they went 5:0 at heat 1 of the UKGT.
Deathwatch Primaris are in an odd state compared to the veterans. They don’t have any way to get invulnerable saves, which means they are arguably less durable than vets with storm shields – which can also be fearless thanks to their terminator. Compared to that Deathwatch intercessors look kind of ordinary.
Where deathwatch Primaris look good to me is with the option to deep strike hellblasters, and maybe aggressors. And meanwhile a 5 man intercessor squad becomes a pretty decent cheap-ish objective sitter, but nothing like the alpha striker that a veteran squad can be.
Mandragola wrote: Where deathwatch Primaris look good to me is with the option to deep strike hellblasters, and maybe aggressors. And meanwhile a 5 man intercessor squad becomes a pretty decent cheap-ish objective sitter, but nothing like the alpha striker that a veteran squad can be.
At that point, the difference between Ravenguard and Deathwatch is pretty much offence vs defence and whether you want to infiltrate or deepstrike (that and the deathwatch specific stratagems are better than the marine ones)
Mandragola wrote: Where deathwatch Primaris look good to me is with the option to deep strike hellblasters, and maybe aggressors. And meanwhile a 5 man intercessor squad becomes a pretty decent cheap-ish objective sitter, but nothing like the alpha striker that a veteran squad can be.
At that point, the difference between Ravenguard and Deathwatch is pretty much offence vs defence and whether you want to infiltrate or deepstrike (that and the deathwatch specific stratagems are better than the marine ones)
You're not wrong, but I think there's a bit more to it than that. Part of the problem for ravenguard is that their troops aren't great. Ravenguard intercessors are hard to shift, but not very dangerous. But deathwatch combined squads are scary, and even their interecessors are pretty dangerous - albeit more expensive and less tough than ravenguard ones.
Ravenguard mainly want to use SftS on non-troop units, while for deathwatch a kill team is a good unit to deep strike. That means that for deathwatch the same units generate CPs and also use them, which is quite good news.
Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.
And still better than no shots or five shots at worse AP. We're talking about backfield objective campers here, it is not like there are better alternatives in a pure Primaris list.
Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.
And still better than no shots or five shots at worse AP. We're talking about backfield objective campers here, it is not like there are better alternatives in a pure Primaris list.
Honestly I think normal bolt rifles are better in that role - especially as the squad is 10 points cheaper.
Being able to move and shoot is really valuable. Having two shots instead of one is also really valuable. It's true that ap-2 is nice, but it's not all that much better than -1, and you can also do without the extra 6" of range.
Ultimately intercessors aren't really there to kill things with shooting, but t grab objectives and stay on them. It doesn't hugely matter what gun to give them, but since the cheapest gun is almost always also the best, I've never felt there was much argument about what to give them.
Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.
And still better than no shots or five shots at worse AP. We're talking about backfield objective campers here, it is not like there are better alternatives in a pure Primaris list.
You'd literally be better off with Scouts with Sniper Rifles and a ML.
I know this is the Primaris discussion thread, but Stalker Rifles are just THAT bad. Not even Special Ammo and an Aggressor to make them move without penalty makes the weapon good.
You'd literally be better off with Scouts with Sniper Rifles and a ML.
I know this is the Primaris discussion thread, but Stalker Rifles are just THAT bad. Not even Special Ammo and an Aggressor to make them move without penalty makes the weapon good.
But if we are talking about Primaris models only, then scouts are not an option. Regular rifles are obviously the weapon to equip most of your squads, but it the squads purpose is to hold the backfield objective and they won't be in the rapid fire range anyway, you might as well take the extra AP and range. I agree that it is a bad weapon, it should have sniper rule. But it still can have a purpose in the very limited Primaris arsenal.
You'd literally be better off with Scouts with Sniper Rifles and a ML.
I know this is the Primaris discussion thread, but Stalker Rifles are just THAT bad. Not even Special Ammo and an Aggressor to make them move without penalty makes the weapon good.
But if we are talking about Primaris models only, then scouts are not an option. Regular rifles are obviously the weapon to equip most of your squads, but it the squads purpose is to hold the backfield objective and they won't be in the rapid fire range anyway, you might as well take the extra AP and range. I agree that it is a bad weapon, it should have sniper rule. But it still can have a purpose in the very limited Primaris arsenal.
It’s possible to imagine a scenario where stalker rifles would be marginally better than normal rifles. But it doesn’t come up in every game. In lots of games I need my intercessors to move forward to screen, or the enemy is rushing me and I need to be mobile.
So when I’m designing an army for an event there’d never be a case for including stalker rifles. There won’t always be an objective that needs a unit sat on it. Even if there is, I might well have a unit with some real firepower that’s better at the job. Even if I don’t, a unit with normal rifles is usually as good as or better than stalker rifles would be – for example if anything ever comes within 15” of them.
And so for all these reasons, I’d never put stalker rifles in my army. It’s true that they’d be better if they were sat on an objective between 30 and 36” from a target, but as far as I can see that’s the only time normal rifles aren’t better. They need to be heavy 2 or have the sniper rule or something.
I made myself a squad of scouts with shotguns out of some very heavily converted reivers. I think they came out pretty well, and maybe one day I'll make a scout squad. I might even base their guns on stalker bolt rifles with extended barrels.
Mandragola wrote: It’s possible to imagine a scenario where stalker rifles would be marginally better than normal rifles. But it doesn’t come up in every game. In lots of games I need my intercessors to move forward to screen, or the enemy is rushing me and I need to be mobile.
So when I’m designing an army for an event there’d never be a case for including stalker rifles. There won’t always be an objective that needs a unit sat on it. Even if there is, I might well have a unit with some real firepower that’s better at the job. Even if I don’t, a unit with normal rifles is usually as good as or better than stalker rifles would be – for example if anything ever comes within 15” of them.
And so for all these reasons, I’d never put stalker rifles in my army. It’s true that they’d be better if they were sat on an objective between 30 and 36” from a target, but as far as I can see that’s the only time normal rifles aren’t better. They need to be heavy 2 or have the sniper rule or something.
I made myself a squad of scouts with shotguns out of some very heavily converted reivers. I think they came out pretty well, and maybe one day I'll make a scout squad. I might even base their guns on stalker bolt rifles with extended barrels.
Fair points. (they're better between 16 and 36 inches though.) I can certainly see that their role is so situational and benefit so small, so that they're not worth including. Oh, and excellent scouts, I was contemplating doing something similar, good to see that it works well!
Recently got a box of them but not sure what the optimal loadout is
For 40k? Knife, Pistol, Grapnel Launcher. 4 shots/attacks in melee and the ability to occasionally abuse the vertical movement for a less than 9" charge. Pop into flanking hordes. They do great so long as nobody brings any AP. Then they start dieing no matter what you do.
For Kill Team? Carbines all the way. They act as speedy little intercessors with nice assault guns.
If stalkers were heavy 2 then they would be actually useful. 110 points as Deathwatch to sit back and shoot away with 36" -2ap wounding non-vehicles on 2s and be a beefy objective holder is not bad at all.
Charger is spot on - that's the only effective way of running Reivers imo too. I used to run them with carbines but phew, they do a whole lot of nothing.
Mandragola wrote: It’s possible to imagine a scenario where stalker rifles would be marginally better than normal rifles. But it doesn’t come up in every game. In lots of games I need my intercessors to move forward to screen, or the enemy is rushing me and I need to be mobile.
So when I’m designing an army for an event there’d never be a case for including stalker rifles. There won’t always be an objective that needs a unit sat on it. Even if there is, I might well have a unit with some real firepower that’s better at the job. Even if I don’t, a unit with normal rifles is usually as good as or better than stalker rifles would be – for example if anything ever comes within 15” of them.
And so for all these reasons, I’d never put stalker rifles in my army. It’s true that they’d be better if they were sat on an objective between 30 and 36” from a target, but as far as I can see that’s the only time normal rifles aren’t better. They need to be heavy 2 or have the sniper rule or something.
I made myself a squad of scouts with shotguns out of some very heavily converted reivers. I think they came out pretty well, and maybe one day I'll make a scout squad. I might even base their guns on stalker bolt rifles with extended barrels.
Fair points. (they're better between 16 and 36 inches though.) I can certainly see that their role is so situational and benefit so small, so that they're not worth including. Oh, and excellent scouts, I was contemplating doing something similar, good to see that it works well!
It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.
I've built a five man squad of stalkers to run as Salamanders to hang out at the back for the backfield, and the chapter trait really gives them some more reliability for putting on wounds. It's more of a ranged hornet, it'll plink away a few models here and there, great for finishing off squads, but your opponent will have to really dedicate some firepower to shifting them, leaving some other units unharmed.
Same thing again for an LT with a stalker and salamanders. With a two damage weapon like that, he's going to be almost guaranteed to be forcing a save on something once per turn.
It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.
I hope they at least address the price in the next CA. It is such a shame that most Primaris weapon options are just not worth using.
At least the Assault Bolt Rifle has more use to the Stalker, but I cannot defend any of the Plasma weapons that aren't the Rapid Fire version.
I think there's a case for the assault plasma incinerators, for ravenguard. These guys can put a pretty respectable amount of hurt on people from far away, usually meaning that any return fire is at -1 to hit.
They are in a bit of trouble if the enemy rushes you, but they aren't too bad even then. They are cheap enough that a RG army can include quite a lot of them if it really wants to.
CaptainValtos wrote: I've built a five man squad of stalkers to run as Salamanders to hang out at the back for the backfield, and the chapter trait really gives them some more reliability for putting on wounds. It's more of a ranged hornet, it'll plink away a few models here and there, great for finishing off squads, but your opponent will have to really dedicate some firepower to shifting them, leaving some other units unharmed.
Same thing again for an LT with a stalker and salamanders. With a two damage weapon like that, he's going to be almost guaranteed to be forcing a save on something once per turn.
That's more like a black ant trying to bite you. It really doesn't have bite.
It also isn't like they're free weapons either. Were they only 1 point I'd say it's a situational benefit, but at 2? No thanks.
I hope they at least address the price in the next CA. It is such a shame that most Primaris weapon options are just not worth using.
At least the Assault Bolt Rifle has more use to the Stalker, but I cannot defend any of the Plasma weapons that aren't the Rapid Fire version.
I think there's a case for the assault plasma incinerators, for ravenguard. These guys can put a pretty respectable amount of hurt on people from far away, usually meaning that any return fire is at -1 to hit.
They are in a bit of trouble if the enemy rushes you, but they aren't too bad even then. They are cheap enough that a RG army can include quite a lot of them if it really wants to.
That jump from an Overcharged S7 to S8 is pretty darn significant. I'll concede it does keep them pretty safe with more shots though.
Ericthegreen wrote: assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.
Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh
Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.
Well it’s 5 points, so not really.
A deathwatch squad build that works fairly well is 5 intercessors with auto rifles, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. They can advance without penalties to hit and fire after falling back. They can fight reasonably well in combat too, as the aggressors have power fists. It’s a decent anti-horde unit, though pretty vulnerable if it comes up against the wrong things. At least the intercessors can tank for the expensive guys.
Ericthegreen wrote: assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.
Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh
Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.
Well it’s 5 points, so not really.
A deathwatch squad build that works fairly well is 5 intercessors with auto rifles, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. They can advance without penalties to hit and fire after falling back. They can fight reasonably well in combat too, as the aggressors have power fists. It’s a decent anti-horde unit, though pretty vulnerable if it comes up against the wrong things. At least the intercessors can tank for the expensive guys.
I supported the agressor/auto rifle blob for a long time, but I found I was paying points for a trick that wasn't getting me a lot of points killed. The Agressors are good at melee, but the Intercessors are a dead weight. The Intercessors are good at shooting, but the Aggressors need to be just outside enemy charge range to work. Worse, those power fists only hit on a 4+ with 2 attacks per aggressor. That's not great for a 39 point model. If you use the Inceptor the math gets worse as they don't want to get in melee at all and metor charge is a red herring.
The math gets slightly better if you pay the 1 CP to combat squad, but then why not just teleport a 6 man agressor squad?
Ericthegreen wrote: assault bolt rifle that can advance and shoot with no penalty is great for deathwatch.
Assault versions on Ravenguard I can see. everyone else...meh
Seems like a lot of points to pay so you can lose -1 AP.
Well it’s 5 points, so not really.
A deathwatch squad build that works fairly well is 5 intercessors with auto rifles, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. They can advance without penalties to hit and fire after falling back. They can fight reasonably well in combat too, as the aggressors have power fists. It’s a decent anti-horde unit, though pretty vulnerable if it comes up against the wrong things. At least the intercessors can tank for the expensive guys.
I supported the agressor/auto rifle blob for a long time, but I found I was paying points for a trick that wasn't getting me a lot of points killed. The Agressors are good at melee, but the Intercessors are a dead weight. The Intercessors are good at shooting, but the Aggressors need to be just outside enemy charge range to work. Worse, those power fists only hit on a 4+ with 2 attacks per aggressor. That's not great for a 39 point model. If you use the Inceptor the math gets worse as they don't want to get in melee at all and metor charge is a red herring.
The math gets slightly better if you pay the 1 CP to combat squad, but then why not just teleport a 6 man agressor squad?
The problem with that is then the aggressors are out in the wide open and vulnerable to getting blasted away with nothing to protect them. However if you put them in a larger squad then morale becomes an issue funnily enough. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Have we considered a Combat Squad at the beginning of the game?
I know I've discussed the idea of 5 Vets with their Stalkers and a squad of 4 Bikers with a Shield Vanguard, and you combat squad to keep the Stalkers in cover and the Bikers to quickly venture forth. 5 Intercessors (which are fine with just the Bolt Rifle as is), then 4 Aggressors and a Inceptor separated from them wouldn't seem necessarily bad. Combat Squad and you can rush forward with advancing, with the Inceptor not losing accuracy because of the Aggressors conferring their rule, and the power for Aggressors to fall back and shoot could be pretty nasty.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Have we considered a Combat Squad at the beginning of the game?
I know I've discussed the idea of 5 Vets with their Stalkers and a squad of 4 Bikers with a Shield Vanguard, and you combat squad to keep the Stalkers in cover and the Bikers to quickly venture forth. 5 Intercessors (which are fine with just the Bolt Rifle as is), then 4 Aggressors and a Inceptor separated from them wouldn't seem necessarily bad. Combat Squad and you can rush forward with advancing, with the Inceptor not losing accuracy because of the Aggressors conferring their rule, and the power for Aggressors to fall back and shoot could be pretty nasty.
All you do is make your more valuable models more vulnerable by getting rid of their meat shields.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Have we considered a Combat Squad at the beginning of the game?
I know I've discussed the idea of 5 Vets with their Stalkers and a squad of 4 Bikers with a Shield Vanguard, and you combat squad to keep the Stalkers in cover and the Bikers to quickly venture forth. 5 Intercessors (which are fine with just the Bolt Rifle as is), then 4 Aggressors and a Inceptor separated from them wouldn't seem necessarily bad. Combat Squad and you can rush forward with advancing, with the Inceptor not losing accuracy because of the Aggressors conferring their rule, and the power for Aggressors to fall back and shoot could be pretty nasty.
All you do is make your more valuable models more vulnerable by getting rid of their meat shields.
Not to mention, T5 Intercessors are great, and obsec Aggressors are too.
Martel732 wrote: Reivers became special again. But no dissy cannon nerf so does it matter?
We also got access to protection against shooting on turn 1, which is pretty dang important for Marines. Counting as being in cover allows us to negate AP a bit more when going second which gives us some ability to tank turn 1 shooting better when we go second (which we do fairly often due to not having a lot of ways to decrease our drops).
Yep, I'm very happy to see the new stratagem, given that I typically go second and have CPs to spare because there are so few stratagems I can actually use.
Hellblasters x5
Heavy Plasma Incinerator
Total: 175
TOTAL: 1982/2000 = 18 points remaining
With a Brigade I have all the CP I can spend (most of it being reroll based), the list has 62 models running 137 wounds (not counting Chapter Master upgrade) and the MSU basically prevents most morale problems are negated and I feel like the list has most of the tools it needs to run a good game.
That said it's 17 drops and that means dropping a couple CP for getting second (meaning that if I take Chapter Master I effectively only have 10 CP to spend on re-rolls, which means if I keep it to 2 a turn I can do it for 5 turns). I'm up for some ideas on things I should consider changing, or things that could be done differently. That said I'm likely to keep the Reivers just because the list needs some support to go dig out stuff like Big Mek guns or Mortar teams.
I think some of the points in your list are off. Inceptors are 135 and plasma inceptors are 177 (You need to take 2 of each gun).
Here is my list:
Spoiler:
HQs:
Helbrecht (170)
Primaris Lieutenant w/ Power Sword (74)
Techmarine (57) (cheapest HQ) (Could remove 4 powerswords to take a 2nd lieutenant)
Troops:
Intercessors w/ grenade launcher and power sword (95) x 6
Elites:
Primaris Ancient w/ Super banner (69)
Primaris Apoth (68)
Reivers w/ no upgrades (90)
Fast Attack:
Inceptors w/ Assault bolters (135) x 3
Heavy support:
Hellblasters (165) x 3
urzaplanewalker wrote: I think some of the points in your list are off. Inceptors are 135 and plasma inceptors are 177 (You need to take 2 of each gun).
It's quite possible I've screwed up somewhere. It'd help if they just sold you things you can only buy in pairs as a pair instead of buy the each so it doesn't get screwed up by people like me.
I know im bending/completely braking the rules a little with this list but im gonna take the stance that everything in my army is modeled as primaris and vehicles and scouts don't count in my brain
So heres my fists fluff first list;
Battalion
Captain - SS + CS with teeth of terra relic - chapter master upgrade straight off the bat - WL trait undecided between the storm of fire and the fists specific one
Captain - MC bolter + PF
3x 5man intercessor squad with PS and Grenade
7man scout squad with HB and storm bolter +CS for sarge
5man Aggressor squad with BS 2x Redemptor dread with gats, storm bolters and icarus
venerable dread with 2x AC
5man inceptor squad with dakka
Spearhead
lieutenant with PS
5man HB squad with standard incinerator
2x thunderfire cannon
Comes to 1993 - could probably use the remaining to bumb the lieutenants CC weapon up
So the plan would be to create a long range static firebase with the chapter master and lieut using the ven dread, thunderfire cans and hellblasters plus a maybe intercessors. Then a more aggressive contingent made up of the second cap plus redemptors and aggressors who will push up to meet the deepstriking inceptors.
I love the the Primaris models, and plan to create my own chapter that works closely with a local AM tank regiment... The upshot being a pure Primaris Battalion allied to an AM Spearhead.
So my question is: what AM tanks would work well supporting Primaris infantry? What covers their weaknesses best?
Cheers
Automatically Appended Next Post: Separate question: 500th store birthday lieutenant w/stalker bolt rifle... Useful?!
I love the the Primaris models, and plan to create my own chapter that works closely with a local AM tank regiment... The upshot being a pure Primaris Battalion allied to an AM Spearhead.
So my question is: what AM tanks would work well supporting Primaris infantry? What covers their weaknesses best?
Primaris have natively little anti-tank, so any tanks which are good at that would be my firs choice. So Leman Russ annihilators, probably.
Separate question: 500th store birthday lieutenant w/stalker bolt rifle... Useful?!
Not really. Lieutenant has BS 3+, no on is scared his one shot rifle. I'd always give them the sword, they've got WS 2+ and four attacks. Even if their main role was to support shooty units (as it often is) with a sword they can at least offer some CC threat in case enemy melee units come to harass you. If you want to use the model without converting it, it might be best to use it as an Intercessor sergeant.
