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It is just crazy how much better DW are for primaris. There is no way vanilla primaris can compete with DW primaris. Well count-as DW it is then I guess...

Martel732 wrote:
It took gw a while to figure out that intercessors are simply ignored every battle.

I keep hearing this juxtaposed alongside complaints that they die super quick because everybody has a million 2 damage weapons. I love the extremes.

 Crimson wrote:
It is just crazy how much better DW are for primaris. There is no way vanilla primaris can compete with DW primaris. Well count-as DW it is then I guess...

I think it's important to clarify this statement to mean mostly Intercessors and Reivers. They're clearly better in all ways. But Hellblasters, Aggressors, and Inceptors only gain the Mission Tactics component, which is achievable in every SM army using a LT while also providing a different chapter tactic. Those Primaris units end up functionally the same.

Sure, they do get the opportunity to serve as troops in kill teams, which is great for the CP, flexibility, and ablative wounds, but regular SM armies have benefits to offset that, like not having problems filling out troops slots thanks to scouts.

Likewise, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Repulsors don't really gain much from being DW over vanilla. The real winners here are Intercessors, the special characters with guns, and Reivers. I wouldn't say that counts as being best for ALL Primaris.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It took gw a while to figure out that intercessors are simply ignored every battle.

I keep hearing this juxtaposed alongside complaints that they die super quick because everybody has a million 2 damage weapons. I love the extremes.

Martel won't be happy until they get GW to wring out every last buff they can get for BA. Why their chosen method is complaining on DakkaDakka, I never know. I assume Martel keeps a similar campaign going on GW's facebook/email.

Intercessors are nice, but it's hard to say if they are costed properly when their direct analouges are tactical marines, which aren't costed properly at all. If tac marines were costed as to be a viable choice, I suspect we'd have a better idea if Intercessors are worth the points. I personally find them worth it, but I'm a new player who dumped his old marines at the first chance he got - not exactly an unbiased source

In my experience they do not die easily, it is just that their damage output is rather apathetic. DW fixes that.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

DraxiusII wrote:
Does anyone else feel the first codex pains with vanilla primaris marines? The lack of usable stratagems or relics is really starting to become noticeable now that more armies have their codex, and it's going to become even more apparent since battalions generate more CPs. I normally run Chapter Master since I really don't lose much by doing so, and I'll usually get a couple good Bolter Drills off with a squad of inceptors. Other than that, the reroll strat is really all there is, and space marines reroll almost everything anyway. Granted, I think it's fine that not all armies lean on their stratagems as much as Eldar, but we don't even really have situational stratagems other than Auspex Scan.

Just curious about how everyone else felt and what you guys are spending your CPs on.

I feel like Codex: SM came out with really strong chapter tactics and relics, but strategems that were soon passed out to almost every other faction in the game. That being said, if its true that DW primaris are almost the same cost as Codex:SM primaris there really won't be a reason to not switch.

We're going to be living in a darker time when everyone switches to Deathwatch. Before we were at "you can't lower the cost of Space Marines because Guilliman is too good!" Now we'll be at "you can't lower the cost of Space Marines because Deathwatch is too good!"

But I am pretty miffed that half of the Stratagems for Space Marines are so dependent on formations or are extremely particular to certain units, and the other half are terrible with only a few exceptions.


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Lemondish wrote:
I think it's important to clarify this statement to mean mostly Intercessors and Reivers. They're clearly better in all ways. But Hellblasters, Aggressors, and Inceptors only gain the Mission Tactics component, which is achievable in every SM army using a LT while also providing a different chapter tactic. Those Primaris units end up functionally the same.

Sure, they do get the opportunity to serve as troops in kill teams, which is great for the CP, flexibility, and ablative wounds, but regular SM armies have benefits to offset that, like not having problems filling out troops slots thanks to scouts.

Likewise, Redemptor Dreadnoughts and Repulsors don't really gain much from being DW over vanilla. The real winners here are Intercessors, the special characters with guns, and Reivers. I wouldn't say that counts as being best for ALL Primaris.

What Aggressors and Hellblasters gained was ablative wounds. Now not only are Intercessors going to be spitting some crazy strong firepower, they're going to have Aggressor and Hellblaster buddies that let them melt things and enjoy no penalty to movement and advancing. I think the big stick ballers of DW are going to be 5 Intercessors, 4 Hellblasters, and 1 Aggressor with Flamers to mulch anyone who feels like charging this disgusting firebase.

I don't think falling back and shooting will be incredibly helpful all of the time, but on some units it will be. For those who can't fall back, swing back with your 2 attacks per model and shoot them with your 2+ to wound or AP-2 bolt pistols.

Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.

Regardless of the exact makeup of the squad, I think it's pretty clear that it's a much better setup if they're costed the same as normal intercessors. Even a single hellblaster in the squad dramatically increases the squad’s damage output, for not that many more points.
It sucks because I really do like the specialist primaris squads, but if they aren't cheaper per model than the mixed deathwatch variant, there really isn't a reason to take them.

That's the whole trick to using intercessors, is to create a situation where your opponent has to target them. Why would you not add some teeth to the squad to make sure they aren’t ignored? The better stratagems for running DW is just icing on the cake.

"I keep hearing this juxtaposed alongside complaints that they die super quick because everybody has a million 2 damage weapons. I love the extremes"

They sure do, when they get around to shooting them after they've killed all the primaris that can actually do something. The two are not mutually exclusive. They can both be ignored and then die fast when targeted by the appropriate weapons. Hell, *I* don't care if my own intercessors are on the table, why should my opponent? The units getting evaporated first are hellblasters and inceptors. Because duh.


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 Crimson wrote:
In my experience they do not die easily, it is just that their damage output is rather apathetic. DW fixes that.

Both are true, unfortuantely. A terrible combination.

I think Sm have some good psychic powers I don’t really understand what some people want.

Might of Heroes - super buff to beat stick character or dread similar to Diabolic Strength

Veil of Time - unit always hits First in melee great deterrent with Heroic Intervention

Psychic Fortress - excellent defense versus mortal wounds

Null Zone is a total game winner. If you can’t cast it take Tiggy or burn a CP.


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“Martel won't be happy until they get GW to wring out every last buff they can get for BA. Why their chosen method is complaining on DakkaDakka, I never know. I assume Martel keeps a similar campaign going on GW's facebook/email.“

This made me LOL!

DraxiusII wrote:
Regardless of the exact makeup of the squad, I think it's pretty clear that it's a much better setup if they're costed the same as normal intercessors. Even a single hellblaster in the squad dramatically increases the squad’s damage output, for not that many more points.
It sucks because I really do like the specialist primaris squads, but if they aren't cheaper per model than the mixed deathwatch variant, there really isn't a reason to take them.

That's the whole trick to using intercessors, is to create a situation where your opponent has to target them. Why would you not add some teeth to the squad to make sure they aren’t ignored? The better stratagems for running DW is just icing on the cake.

The only reason you'd take them is to avoid the 100 point Intercessor tax (90 for models, 2ppm extra for Bolt Rifle and Bolt Pistol; estimated). I can see them being used, but not often.

 Primark G wrote:
I think Sm have some good psychic powers I don’t really understand what some people want.

Might of Heroes - super buff to beat stick character or dread similar to Diabolic Strength

Veil of Time - unit always hits First in melee great deterrent with Heroic Intervention

Psychic Fortress - excellent defense versus mortal wounds

Null Zone is a total game winner. If you can’t cast it take Tiggy or burn a CP.

I agree that the SM powers are pretty good, but it would have been nice to see some nice new fluffy DW ones. I suppose it makes sense given all these guys were trained in a normal SM chapter before induction.

bort wrote:
Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.

I feel like the 10 man ball is probably overkill. I know that's what GW is pushing but you don't need to minimize the number of intercessors since they're actually pretty nice with SIA and maximized squads make a juicier target for heavy weapons. I think squads like 5 intercessors/2 hellblasters or 5 Intercessors/1 Aggressor/1 Reiver will be more efficient.

novembermike wrote:

bort wrote:
Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.

I feel like the 10 man ball is probably overkill. I know that's what GW is pushing but you don't need to minimize the number of intercessors since they're actually pretty nice with SIA and maximized squads make a juicier target for heavy weapons. I think squads like 5 intercessors/2 hellblasters or 5 Intercessors/1 Aggressor/1 Reiver will be more efficient.

I've very, very rarely seen people wipe out an Intercessor squad entirely with 1 round of shooting, but it could be because I play Raven Guard. Even if someone is capable of doing it, having 5 Intercessors and 4 Hellblasters with 1 Aggressor means they'll need to get through 12 wounds before they even touch the real meat of your squad. It just seems to me that Deathwatch is going to be very deadly and still very sturdy.

I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.

You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.

You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.

To be fair the dark eldar are tailor made to kill primaris marines. Not every single army you play against will be dark eldar.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.

You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.

To be fair the dark eldar are tailor made to kill primaris marines. Not every single army you play against will be dark eldar.

You don't think competitive events will be crawling with these guys now?

novembermike wrote:

bort wrote:
Being able to fall back and shoot also seems a lot more useful if you’re going to run them as a 10man ball with 4 hell blasters. You don’t want them tied up.

I feel like the 10 man ball is probably overkill. I know that's what GW is pushing but you don't need to minimize the number of intercessors since they're actually pretty nice with SIA and maximized squads make a juicier target for heavy weapons. I think squads like 5 intercessors/2 hellblasters or 5 Intercessors/1 Aggressor/1 Reiver will be more efficient.

I think the primary argument in favor of big squads is maxing the efficiency of Stratagem usage. If I play the +1 to Wound DW strat, I'd rather it hit 4-5 Hellblasters instead of 1-2.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not RG, but I've had 5 hellblasters, 6 inceptors and 5 intercessors killed by Drukhari in ONE turn. That's 32 primaris wounds in one turn. They were running the ignore cover obsession, but still. How does anyone expect to stand against this? Drukhari always dictate engagement range, too. Would I have been better off with normal marines? I think so for this particular matchup.

You'll need to give up RG tactic to run DW, too.

To be fair the dark eldar are tailor made to kill primaris marines. Not every single army you play against will be dark eldar.

You don't think competitive events will be crawling with these guys now?

I don't think you should play any mono-marine force in competitive events.

He doesn’t use LoS blocking terrain. He will say he does but not really.

I think Deathwatch Primaris are good enough that I am actually scared to repaint all my stuff for fear of a future nerf. I highly doubt they will ever drop the points of Vanilla Primaris again, it would make more sense to add 3 more ppm to the DW ones or something.

That said they aren't too good on the scale of the game as a whole, we basically just have to hope that Space Marine players don't complain so much that GW nerf Deathwatch.

 Primark G wrote:
He doesn’t use LoS blocking terrain. He will say he does but not really.

Because Drukhari can't fly around a corner? Get real. Yeah, we have LoS blocking terrain, but it hurts marines almost more than anyone else. I've also played against 18 of the bugs with indirect fire. LoS blocking is a double-edged sword for marines for sure.


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 Malkyr wrote:
I think Deathwatch Primaris are good enough that I am actually scared to repaint all my stuff for fear of a future nerf. I highly doubt they will ever drop the points of Vanilla Primaris again, it would make more sense to add 3 more ppm to the DW ones or something.

That said they aren't too good on the scale of the game as a whole, we basically just have to hope that Space Marine players don't complain so much that GW nerf Deathwatch.

They're going to have to make base primaris cheaper, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
He doesn’t use LoS blocking terrain. He will say he does but not really.

Because Drukhari can't fly around a corner? Get real. Yeah, we have LoS blocking terrain, but it hurts marines almost more than anyone else. I've also played against 18 of the bugs with indirect fire. LoS blocking is a double-edged sword for marines for sure.


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 Malkyr wrote:
I think Deathwatch Primaris are good enough that I am actually scared to repaint all my stuff for fear of a future nerf. I highly doubt they will ever drop the points of Vanilla Primaris again, it would make more sense to add 3 more ppm to the DW ones or something.

That said they aren't too good on the scale of the game as a whole, we basically just have to hope that Space Marine players don't complain so much that GW nerf Deathwatch.

They're going to have to make base primaris cheaper, imo.

Naw, you get real. When somebody mentions terrain, they mean plural. Multiple pieces. Not hiding your whole army behind a single rock. That's hilarious. What games are you playing?

Sure, that Drukhari unit can fly around a corner - but then what. It blasts one super expendable unit? Oh man, what a bummer. Good thing you positioned properly and now their paper airplane is exposed gonna burst into flame next turn. I mean, you gotta position properly. GW isn't going to just drop the cost of your units to the point positioning doesn't. C'mon son, you know this.

Marines don't have super expendable units, and with a range of 36", disintegrators pick their target, you don't. This isn't melee.

With such huge movement rates, it's pretty easy for them to traverse multiple LoS blockers. And again, you just don't max out LoS blockers mindlessly because that's how you autolose to IG.

I recommend using ITC rules for terrain. It really helps Marines. Noting that Martel never has anything good to say about Space Marines only ever citing negative examples.

 Primark G wrote:
I recommend using ITC rules for terrain. It really helps Marines. Noting that Martel never has anything good to say about Space Marines only ever citing negative examples.

He makes a great PR guy for the dark eldar though.

I play almost exclusively ITC matchups. ITC makes it more difficult for slow units that are unable to clear the obstacles, I agree. Of course, who has more movement, Drukhari or marines? LoS blocking terrain cripples your precious hellblasters pretty well, so I'm surprised you're a fan.

I have plenty of positive example for BA, but they are mostly in matches against... marines. When there's one list that you can beat the crap out of over and over and over again, you begin to lose respect.

And Guard. Just saying.

Sometimes I wish I could witness Martel's meta for myself. It sounds completely unbelievable. Any photos or videos you can share Martel?

Yeah I feel the same way too. It’s atypical to say the least.

Zustiur wrote:
Sometimes I wish I could witness Martel's meta for myself. It sounds completely unbelievable. Any photos or videos you can share Martel?

Drukari being Drukhari are unbelievable? Two of the competitive guys quit, actually. I've actually won a lot more games in 8th, so it's nothing super special anymore, but the the last three codices are ball-busting for marines, esp primaris marines. The reality is that I'm hesitant to invest soup money. I've got a couple starter boxes of primaris and some reivers, and I'm pissed they keep publishing weapons that feth them over. If I had Eldar or something my win rate would quite high, actually. So it's not the meta, really.

Although I did just play vs 3 necron destroyer blobs. That was super unfun. The FAQ also did BA no favors when I was already struggling to survive IG lists. I"ll send pics the next time I play destroyer guy, but it's 17 destroyers in a list. There's also the guy with 200 3rd ed IG infantry. And the woman who's got eight shooty carnifexes.

The 7th ed meta was just guys practicing Eldar and SW super friends for tournaments. That's not really anything special, either, I was just unwillling to buy an Eldar army. Even in 7th, I bumbled into a win or two over Gladius, showing that marines were weaker than Eldar even at the zenith of marines, imo.