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Martel732 wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
Sometimes I wish I could witness Martel's meta for myself. It sounds completely unbelievable. Any photos or videos you can share Martel?

Drukari being Drukhari are unbelievable? Two of the competitive guys quit, actually. I've actually won a lot more games in 8th, so it's nothing super special anymore, but the the last three codices are ball-busting for marines, esp primaris marines. The reality is that I'm hesitant to invest soup money. I've got a couple starter boxes of primaris and some reivers, and I'm pissed they keep publishing weapons that feth them over. If I had Eldar or something my win rate would quite high, actually. So it's not the meta, really.

Although I did just play vs 3 necron destroyer blobs. That was super unfun. The FAQ also did BA no favors when I was already struggling to survive IG lists. I"ll send pics the next time I play destroyer guy, but it's 17 destroyers in a list. There's also the guy with 200 3rd ed IG infantry. And the woman who's got eight shooty carnifexes.

The 7th ed meta was just guys practicing Eldar and SW super friends for tournaments. That's not really anything special, either, I was just unwillling to buy an Eldar army. Even in 7th, I bumbled into a win or two over Gladius, showing that marines were weaker than Eldar even at the zenith of marines, imo.

My play both Space Marines and Necrons, have to say that Necron Destroyers are the bane of Space Marines. They have awesome firepower but they also die quite easily (of course, they melt under the blade of Magnus, not to the piss poor marines anti infamtry firepower). And they might get their points hiked back to their Index level at the end of thus year which makes them unusable again, so, don't worry. Lol

7th Marine if properly built, like the Draigo - Tiggy conclave - Grav Centurion star can take on the well known infamous "too OP" Eldar army head on. Of course, it is kaput in 8th edition.

He keeps bringing them back on a 3+ reanimation roll. He can even do it if i wipe them some how.

Martel732 wrote:
He keeps bringing them back on a 3+ reanimation roll. He can even do it if i wipe them some how.

It is at most a 4+ RP roll iirc. can't get to 3+.....

The only way to get a wiped unit back is use Resseraction, a 1CP stratagem to bring a CHARACTER back in a way like Guilliman.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He keeps bringing them back on a 3+ reanimation roll. He can even do it if i wipe them some how.

It is at most a 4+ RP roll iirc. can't get to 3+.....

The only way to get a wiped unit back is use Resseraction, a 1CP stratagem to bring a CHARACTER back in a way like Guilliman.

Wait, is this the secret to Martel? Everyone in his meta cheats?

I believe the claim was a strat was stacking with a Cryptek. I've quit questioning Xeno claims.

Martel732 wrote:
I believe the claim was a strat was stacking with a Cryptek. I've quit questioning Xeno claims.

That's not very Space Marine of you

Our biggest asset is flexibility, so while we shouldn't be tailoring our lists, we should be tailoring our strategies to combat other armies, and to do that we need to know what they're capable of.

Or just start cheating yourself idk.

GW has broken me with the Xeno codices. The disintegrator costing 15 pts is fething nuts. It's a 35 point gun.

Everything that kills Primaris Marines kills everything else. We all have to deal with it.

A disintegrator shooting at guardsmen has a ceiling of 12 pts. Shooting at even intercessors has ceiling of 54 pts. With inceptors that goes to 135 pts. That's insane, and not a trivial thing to overcome.

Martel732 wrote:
A disintegrator shooting at guardsmen has a ceiling of 12 pts. Shooting at even intercessors has ceiling of 54 pts. With inceptors that goes to 135 pts. That's insane, and not a trivial thing to overcome.

And a disintegrator shooting at Obliterators has a ceiling of 65 points, or Custodes Jetbikes has a ceiling of 90 points. Or even shooting at a Dhrukari Venom for - wow - 65 points. 2D doesn't only effect marines, and it isn't as commonplace as you think it is. I think Dhrukari are busted as hell but hey - don't play against them, or at the very least don't run Primaris against them if you hate them that much.

You say that, yet I know a CSM guy already building a 17 autocannon list in preparation for DW primaris. If it's not common, I suspect it's coming.

You poison every thread you post in with the same message over and over. We’ve all got it now.

Martel732 wrote:
You say that, yet I know a CSM guy already building a 17 autocannon list in preparation for DW primaris. If it's not common, I suspect it's coming.

Let em. Each Autocannon costs as much as a DW Intercessor, and 2 shots at 3+ against marines out of cover only kills 1 40% of the time. This doesn't even count the cost of the models holding it, or the penalty for moving and shooting.

I think it's been trimmed down to 13. But you can never assume cover. That's a bad assumption.

Martel732 wrote:
I think it's been trimmed down to 13. But you can never assume cover. That's a bad assumption.

I said out of cover. And CA lists it at 15, so I guess they're getting a little more bang for their buck, but I still wouldn't worry. Take some tanks or dreadnoughts and laugh. Hell in this instance a Land Raider would be amazing. Wounding on 5s and still getting a 3+ armor save. All 17 autocannons will only deal 5 wounds even if they all focused it.

Autocannons bust up marine vehicles just fine.

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons bust up marine vehicles just fine.

Sure, okay, Martel. We get it, you're down on Primaris. You're down on marines. It'd be okay if you didn't ignore the math on these things, but I get it - you don't like em. That's fine.

But each time you talk you derail the thread from people who aren't in a meta where TFG runs 17 autocannons to target your army specifically.

Now that that's over with BACK ON TOPIC:

So the DW Intercessor squad doesn't actually limit weapon choices to all models added to the squad - it says "any Intercessor/Reiver/etc" rather than "all" like in C:SM. That means you could realistically have a flamer aggressor and a dakka aggressor in the same squad (probably not all that useful), or a plasma Inceptor alongside the bolter ones (gives the whole squad T5 while mixing in plasma and heavy bolter equivalent shots). Adds to the versatility of these squads at least.

You need plasma concentrated so you can get your babysitter buff. Primaris can't afford to give away free kills by having plasma blow up.

The most obvious benefit is having T5 units that lose intercessors as they get zorfed. Maybe that will help more than I think it will.

Lemondish wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons bust up marine vehicles just fine.

Sure, okay, Martel. We get it, you're down on Primaris. You're down on marines. It'd be okay if you didn't ignore the math on these things, but I get it - you don't like em. That's fine.

But each time you talk you derail the thread from people who aren't in a meta where TFG runs 17 autocannons to target your army specifically.

Now that that's over with BACK ON TOPIC:

So the DW Intercessor squad doesn't actually limit weapon choices to all models added to the squad - it says "any Intercessor/Reiver/etc" rather than "all" like in C:SM. That means you could realistically have a flamer aggressor and a dakka aggressor in the same squad (probably not all that useful), or a plasma Inceptor alongside the bolter ones (gives the whole squad T5 while mixing in plasma and heavy bolter equivalent shots). Adds to the versatility of these squads at least.

I think we'll see Flamer aggressors be used for DW exclusively. It allows you to keep your dakka squad while also having something nasty cooked up for anyone who feels like they want to charge it.

I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

If it’s a Primaris Kill Team your opponents will only ever charge you with units that inflict straight 2 damage and ignore armor saves right?

 Primark G wrote:
If it’s a Primaris Kill Team your opponents will only ever charge you with units that inflict straight 2 damage and ignore armor saves right?

Naw, they won't be charging you because they brought 47 Autocannons, remember?

I guess you can't stay on topic.

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.

I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.

I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.

Glad to hear that the unit performed well, as it's a configuration I'm thinking of using myself.

I'm definitely on the side of dakka aggressors. This unit looks like it should be extremely hard to get rid of and pours out a crazy amount of dakka. With a meta that's currently ruled by hordes, having some really serious anti-horde options has to be a good thing. I'd consider filling a battalion with these units, probably backed up by some IG shooty stuff - or maybe things like leviathan dreads.

There are a fair number of tricks you can do with this unit I think. Use the inceptor to slingshot the unit into an assault, for example. Have the aggressors in the rear "rank" of the unit, then you might be able to fall back without moving some of them, so they can fire twice (as you determine whether individual models, not units, have moved). You can also use the inceptor to make it hard to pin the unit in combat. He can fly out, hopefully leaving a gap for the other guys to run through.

One thing that I've found is that a chapter master really helps aggressors, particularly with overwatch. Where a normal captain's ability to reroll 1s helps a little, being able to reroll 1-5 almost doubles the effect of your overwatch fire. It also applies to things like leviathans, which are no fun at all to charge if a chapter master is nearby.

18" range is simply far superior to 8" . 18" is also the doubletap for kraken rounds.

Mandragola wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.

I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.

Glad to hear that the unit performed well, as it's a configuration I'm thinking of using myself.

I'm definitely on the side of dakka aggressors. This unit looks like it should be extremely hard to get rid of and pours out a crazy amount of dakka. With a meta that's currently ruled by hordes, having some really serious anti-horde options has to be a good thing. I'd consider filling a battalion with these units, probably backed up by some IG shooty stuff - or maybe things like leviathan dreads.

There are a fair number of tricks you can do with this unit I think. Use the inceptor to slingshot the unit into an assault, for example. Have the aggressors in the rear "rank" of the unit, then you might be able to fall back without moving some of them, so they can fire twice (as you determine whether individual models, not units, have moved). You can also use the inceptor to make it hard to pin the unit in combat. He can fly out, hopefully leaving a gap for the other guys to run through.

One thing that I've found is that a chapter master really helps aggressors, particularly with overwatch. Where a normal captain's ability to reroll 1s helps a little, being able to reroll 1-5 almost doubles the effect of your overwatch fire. It also applies to things like leviathans, which are no fun at all to charge if a chapter master is nearby.

In hindsight I definitely should have done a watchmaster instead, since the aggressive nature of this tactic meant he'd be near enough to the deep striking units that they'd be able to benefit from his aura as well. It was really only one test, but I think I disliked how broken up my army felt. I had a squad of half Intercessors/Hellblasters in the back with the dreads, and one tiny Vet squad with missile launchers, a stalker boltgun, and an infernus. At one point it was like having three separate fighting forces and had my opponent the foresight to predict this, I think my firebase back there could have been in a lot of trouble really quickly. The rapidfire Interblasters were midfield, and the Interaggressors (new label wooo) and Vets were dicking around two thirds of the way across the table. Kind of left the dreads and the vet squad exposed a bit.

Martel732 wrote:18" range is simply far superior to 8" . 18" is also the doubletap for kraken rounds.

Absolutely. I don't feel like anybody has the points to devote that much to a flamer without it being some sort of combiweapon - the Aggressor with flamers would just be a warm body taking up space without any ability to contribute at all. It's too bad - they seem like they could be fun if flamers weren't trash, or if the delivery options weren't going to double the price of the unit.

You can't even deep strike within flamer range. What a slap in the face.

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.

I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.

I agree dakka Aggressor are better choice. but TBH, with the change of edition, I really doubt the effectiveness of powerfists. Even you take 4 of them, they only have a total of 8A, with the new edition you hitting on 4s, so even with rerolls for near a watch master you are looking at only 5.32 hits, now you wound those MCs on 3s instead of 2s unless you pop a stratagem to give +1 to wound. Even doing so it yields 4.4 Wounds, and those big MCs usually have 4++ (Hive Tyrants, Tzeentch MCs, Ctans, etc all have such). That means only 2W goes through, resulting an average of 4D.... I think that is not likely to scare off those melee MCs. In reply, their high strength 2D/3D weapons all hit on 2s which can tore a big hole in those DW Primaris squad. Before fall back with Fly and then MW your squad to death.