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Martel732 wrote:
18" range is simply far superior to 8" . 18" is also the doubletap for kraken rounds.

Aggressors do not have access to SIA.

Yeah, I know. I'm talking about the intercessor meat shields hanging out with said aggressors.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.

I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.

I agree dakka Aggressor are better choice. but TBH, with the change of edition, I really doubt the effectiveness of powerfists. Even you take 4 of them, they only have a total of 8A, with the new edition you hitting on 4s, so even with rerolls for near a watch master you are looking at only 5.32 hits, now you wound those MCs on 3s instead of 2s unless you pop a stratagem to give +1 to wound. Even doing so it yields 4.4 Wounds, and those big MCs usually have 4++ (Hive Tyrants, Tzeentch MCs, Ctans, etc all have such). That means only 2W goes through, resulting an average of 4D.... I think that is not likely to scare off those melee MCs. In reply, their high strength 2D/3D weapons all hit on 2s which can tore a big hole in those DW Primaris squad. Before fall back with Fly and then MW your squad to death.

Assuming you want to bring it down - you'll be running the relevant tactics, perhaps even the doctrine, and have your watchmaster nearby. By my count that squad with the watchmaster support would be causing closer to 8 damage to something like a Hive Tyrant, when accounting for those buffs and the inclusion of the watchmaster in that combat, and the other attackers in the unit. Not to mention about 2 more damage from the Overwatch. All averages, of course. Could swing either way, but considering that Tyrant will not have been reaching my marines unscathed, especially since I can wound it on 2+, I think that's pretty substantial considering they are not meant to be my monster hunters. This unit is still pretty resilient so I think they'll mostly survive a Tyrant wailing on them with monstrous rending claws or whatever.

Not sure, though - I'll have to try it out against the friendly neighbourhood Tyranid.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, I know. I'm talking about the intercessor meat shields hanging out with said aggressors.

In this case I was running autobolters so that I could advance up the field without giving up shooting. As such they always double tap, as it were. Vengeance rounds drop the bolters to the same range as the Aggressors, and I was really looking forward to using those, but it would have been a waste on the cultists.

I'm eager to get a game in against an actual xeno force, though.

I don't it's worth giving up the base -1 AP. Ever. The swing on damage cleared with hellfire rounds is too huge, imo. Keep the bolt rifles. Being able to tag annoying Xenos at 36" with -2 AP is pretty nice, too.

You do NOT want primaris in CC with a tyrant. They are doing flat 3 damage. You want guys like stormshield VV in there. Or a crazy BA character that squishes the bug.

Lemondish wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I would still use dakka aggressors. No one is assaulting you. And if they do, it's gonna be 40 wounds of grotesques at T6 or something like that. Or 2++ bullgryns. The flame gauntlets even cost more, for less range.

I have to disagree. The dakka aggressors are good for encouraging people to charge you, but the flamer aggressors are what makes them pay for it. 2d6-4d6 per model automatic hits are frag cannon levels of masscare.

Speaking of DW, I noticed the rules let you mix dakka aggressors and flame aggressors in an intercessor kill team. It's an evil number of points, but 2 flame aggressors, 1 dakka aggressor and a pair of inceptors in a fortis kill team seems like a pretty nasty squad to DS in as needed against big targets.

Ran a squad yesterday of 5 auto boltrifle Intercessors, 4 Dakka Aggressors, and a bolter Inceptor. Just shy of 300 points, but man was that an infantry mulching, screen clearing machine. They were stupidly hard to shift, especially since it took a ton of firepower just to kill 4 Intercessors at T5 with 2+ cover. May not be super efficient - but man was it fun.

I didn't take a flamer aggressor because I actually wanted the enemy's melee specialists to try and charge them. They weren't going to be silenced with the Inceptor in (if they survived), but a unit with this many power fists can really hit hard and figured that would be better than the flamer overwatch. Figured if anybody survived, they'd get to fallback and blast them away. Never had the privilege (I was super hot on my dice with a Ven dread blowing up a Rhino before the Berzerkers inside could make it close enough.

I would have ran regular bolt rifles honestly. Both Inceptors and Aggressors have 18" range, and that's the exact sweet spot for Kraken round Bolt Rifles. Seems like perfect synergy. Being able to advance doesn't seem like much for a unit I definitely would want to deep strike and sit tight for the Aggressor double tap. Maybe something like 6 Intercessors, 3 Hellblasters, 1 Aggressor would be a good unit if you want to be an advancing dakka force. I don't think there's much that S7 can accomplish that S6 can't, so the penalty to the Hellblasters doesn't seem that steep.

Martel732 wrote:
18" range is simply far superior to 8" . 18" is also the doubletap for kraken rounds.

Overwatch. People are going to want to charge this unit. Not to kill it, but to lock it up, especially if you have hellblasters or 4 dakka aggressors. 2d6 flamers in their mouth makes them think differently, or makes them pay for it. Yes, they could charge something that would shrug off flamers, but forcing your opponent to use a unit to eat overwatch is a big advantage. Again, it's a choice to make, so if you're only fighting autocannons then the flamers would be a waste, but if your opponent has orkz or nids or electropriests or vv's or harlequins... basically any 1W glass cannon melee models, they're gonna think twice. Especially orkz. I can't think of anything better than Flamer aggressors to pop that stratagem on.

Also, for the previous argument that "they're more expensive" ... it's 2 points dude.

Put in a single inceptor and then suddenly not care about assault at all.

The 1 W glass cannons won't survive my dakka phase. I don't need to overwatch them.

Melee is trash this edition, and gaming against it is folly most of the time. I'm not going to charge this unit; I'm probably going to shoot it.

2 pts more to reduce range from 18" to 8" seems like a poor trade.

Yeah I have to get onboard with the anti-flamer aggressors here. The extra range is HUGE for the bolter shots and synergizes extremely well with the 15-18 inch happy range the squad will want to be in. If I am going to be worried about assaults I'd rather take an inceptor to fallback and shoot over a flamer aggressor.

Aggressors do not have access to SIA. That is kind of a big deal.

They don't need it. They have million-shot-fu.

Intercessors needed a legit scheme and got one. Aggressors needed to not instantly die. Now they don't. The question is if this is enough improvement? Maybe.

Melee is not trash. Top tables of tournaments are full of hordes assaulting people. An army needs to be able to deal with 120+ plaguebearers, all conga-lined back to a tree and buff characters now. And it needs to be able to handle 200+ orks.

I was at the finals of the UK GT this weekend. It was won by orks, with a big focus on numbers of models on the board and getting them where they were needed.

I did ok with my crimson fists. Lost m first game against the Ynnari list that came 2nd - and went first against me. He had 25 shining spears and 20 dark reapers (10 in webway, 10 in plasma obliterator). Not a great start to the event!

Also lost against a 120 plaguebearer list, due to failing to pin a unit. Smashed a couple of guard armies and some custodes. 3:2 in the end wasn't too bad, given how things started out.

I ran my leviathan for the first time at a competitive event. I'm not 100% sold on it. Ony the Ynnari killed it, but it spent an awful lot of time in cc. Against the nurgle army it took no damage but only got fo fire once - at a unit of nurglings.

First turn is so crucial in 40k right now. I easily could have lost to the IG but I had fewer drops so went first and was able to pull the teeth out of both armies before they really got going. But the Ynnari had done the same to me. It's honestly a big problem with the game as a whole, and a shame they didn't do anything about it when they switched to 8th. I don't think anyone would now design a shooting game like 40k and use the "I go you go" turn sequence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Assuming he's correct, just put in one flamer boy then. It's still better to engage hordes at range than rely on overwatch. If they feed you a trukk, your flamers look foolish.

My personal theory is that Orks benefit from time limits, as they never have the potential to get tabled like in a FLGS match. Likewise, IG are not provided the time to table their opponents with their grinding, methodical firepower, so they are very negatively impacted by the time limits.

Mandragola wrote:

One thing that I've found is that a chapter master really helps aggressors, particularly with overwatch. Where a normal captain's ability to reroll 1s helps a little, being able to reroll 1-5 almost doubles the effect of your overwatch fire.

this is a really important point, and a big part of why Aggressors are so good next to Azrael or guilliman or a Watch Master. Rerolling all misses means nearly double overwatch.

Pro tip:

Don't feed the troll. This is the same guy that trashes Primaris on a daily basis.

I own a bunch of primaris models; I'm not trolling.

Martel732 wrote:
Assuming he's correct, just put in one flamer boy then. It's still better to engage hordes at range than rely on overwatch. If they feed you a trukk, your flamers look foolish.

Yeah that's the idea. You only need one.

Also "just fall back and shoot" isn't following the proper logic of the order the turns go in. Overwatch means you deal damage BEFORE the enemy does, JUST for charging. Falling back and shooting means you're only dealing damage after you've been chopped up, and there might not be much left to shoot with after that.

In fact, maths. All will be assuming you miss with everything in overwatch except the flamers, which are 2D6 autohits at S4 AP0 - rerolling wound rolls of 1. I'm using http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com/ to get my maths.
Khorne Berzerkers - 1.35 wounds or 74.6% chance to deal 1 wound. Each wound removes 8 attacks or 1.19 wounds from the fight phase.
Ork Boyz - 3.40 wounds or 67% chance to deal at least 3 wounds. Each wound removes 4 attacks to a total of 12, or 1.33 wounds from the fight phase. (if you don't just use the stratagem to stop them entirely in their tracks.)
Genestealers - 2.72 wounds or 76.2% chance to deal at least 2 wounds. Each wound removes 4 attacks to a total of 8, or 1.56 wounds from the fight phase.

All of this gets doubled if you didn't move in the previous phase. There's a few things this wouldn't be effective against - like anyone who can reliably charge outside of deep strike range - but a few wounds like these can save your ass and keep units that don't want to get roasted at bay.

Or someone who has a rhino nearby.

Orks cannot charge a squad with to flame-aggressors.

Sure they can. Just send a trukk first.

Martel732 wrote:
Sure they can. Just send a trukk first.

You have a turn or two to kill that trukk. If you can't do it, you deserve to get your overwatch ate.

It's not always that easy. Especially with low model count, low firepower lists like marines. It really depends on the composition of each list.

Martel always comes up with crazy scenarios that defy any sense of game experience... for example it is possible the trukk could make every single ramshackle save.

I do the same thing all the time. It's not crazy. Using a vehicle to soak overwatch is assault 101. It's crazy to you because you are all in on gunlines evidently.

I think that most of what you say doesn't really make any sense. You dream up some random thing and belligerently say it makes something unplayable.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not always that easy. Especially with low model count, low firepower lists like marines. It really depends on the composition of each list.

Trukks are on like the lowest tier of "vehicles that are hard to deal with." If you can't slag a trukk in 1 turn it's no wonder everything gives you so much trouble. I'd love to see how you'd deal with a gargantuan squiggoth.

Don't take the flamers. Live in a world where everything is 18" away from you and never gets any closer, where no one charges you, and autocannons grow on trees. Keep thinking only in increments of one turn, where the entire game rides on 1 squad losing to a hard counter.

Nothing I post is random. I'm probably playing against lists and tactics you haven't experienced. Like 14 autocannons (CSM) or 18 disintegrators (Drukhari).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SputnikDX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's not always that easy. Especially with low model count, low firepower lists like marines. It really depends on the composition of each list.

Trukks are on like the lowest tier of "vehicles that are hard to deal with." If you can't slag a trukk in 1 turn it's no wonder everything gives you so much trouble. I'd love to see how you'd deal with a gargantuan squiggoth.

Don't take the flamers. Live in a world where everything is 18" away from you and never gets any closer, where no one charges you, and autocannons grow on trees. Keep thinking only in increments of one turn, where the entire game rides on 1 squad loses to a hard counter.

Given that I'm rocking BA, I would hope that stuff gets closer than 18".

The trukk in a vacuum is not the issue. It's called target saturation. Something that marines struggle with, but other lists do quite effectively.

You are fixating on the unit "trukk". It could be anything; Squiggoth, deff dred, Morkanaut. Anything that flamers aren't effective against. Which is a pretty long list, actually. Flamers don't deter me, I don't see why they'd deter superior lists.

The bottom line is that I prefer the ranged attacks, because then I get to pick the target. With overwatch, I have to shoot what they give me. I don't like that.

Well, I guess passion counts for something, even if its misplaced and used to fuel far-reaching proclamations that are demonstrably false. You know who you are.

I'll clarify for others to understand, though - I didn't choose the Bolt Rifles on this squad because -1 AP doesn't overcome the loss of shooting for when I advance. And I want to advance. It does the most damage at 18'' and I also want to make sure it gets into cover or contest an objective. That's the role of this unit. My gamble was that the lack of -1 AP would be made up for by an extra couple round of shooting for both the Aggressors and the Intercessors.

If this Primaris anvil is what drew the ire of the fictional Hive Tyrant in this ever more confusion and nonsensically elaborate fake scenario - then I welcome it. Better it than my soft Vet squads, dreadnoughts, my Interblaster squad, etc. I see that as a win. He won't get through 10 models - simply not enough swings even if he runs the board on everything.

As for this fictional Trukk scenario - this is actually a great point in a vacuum. Transports are often perfect for soaking overwatch. If you fear this is going to happen, you have time to react with a unit this mobile, though. Transports telegraph their intentions really clearly.

Maybe it works out. Maybe not. I don't care for the AP 0 intercessor weapon, though.

Weren't you the one who brought monstrous creatures into the conversation?

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe it works out. Maybe not. I don't care for the AP 0 intercessor weapon, though.

Weren't you the one who brought monstrous creatures into the conversation?

Naw, was responding to Neophyte. Thought it was a fun little distraction until everybody started to take the whole thing seriously.

If it makes you feel any better, I really enjoyed the bolt rifle on the Intercessor squad that had Hellblasters mixed in. The bolt rifle is honestly the best SIA gun, I feel. I just valued the mobility more for the Aggressor rush.

I need more games with this unit to see if I want to keep it doing its thing. Still a lot of points.

Lemondish wrote:
Well, I guess passion counts for something, even if its misplaced and used to fuel far-reaching proclamations that are demonstrably false. You know who you are.

I'll clarify for others to understand, though - I didn't choose the Bolt Rifles on this squad because -1 AP doesn't overcome the loss of shooting for when I advance. And I want to advance. It does the most damage at 18'' and I also want to make sure it gets into cover or contest an objective. That's the role of this unit. My gamble was that the lack of -1 AP would be made up for by an extra couple round of shooting for both the Aggressors and the Intercessors.

If this Primaris anvil is what drew the ire of the fictional Hive Tyrant in this ever more confusion and nonsensically elaborate fake scenario - then I welcome it. Better it than my soft Vet squads, dreadnoughts, my Interblaster squad, etc. I see that as a win. He won't get through 10 models - simply not enough swings even if he runs the board on everything.

As for this fictional Trukk scenario - this is actually a great point in a vacuum. Transports are often perfect for soaking overwatch. If you fear this is going to happen, you have time to react with a unit this mobile, though. Transports telegraph their intentions really clearly.

What's the point in advancing? There aren't any objectives on the table, and if there were, you'd just deploy scouts onto all of them and they would be unable to be removed for the entire game. And without that additional -1 AP how are you ever going to beat 7 Guillimans with Wings in a fist fight?

Kidding aside, I think mobility is really great for Primaris and, having given it more thought, worth the trade. Plus, even though regular bolt rifles will be shooting twice at AP-2 at 18" with kraken rounds, the auto bolt rifles will... be shooting at AP-2 at 18" with vengeance rounds. You'll only see a payoff at closer range for the bolt rifles, which you'd probably want to avoid anyway, so advancing backwards and blasting dudes non-stop seems great. My only schtick is that by constantly advancing you're not utilizing those aggressors to full effectiveness, but I suppose that's just the trade-off. Now the real question is if it's worth the extra point to get all that.

It's a lot of points, but it can engage both hordes and bigger monster-types. And, it's VERY hard to kill without the right weapons. So you need a way to keep the right weapons pointed somewhere else.

The other downside is board with many objectives.