Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Martel732 wrote:
You can't even deep strike within flamer range. What a slap in the face.

Martel, why do you keep playing what you play? if you hate space marines this much why not play an army more your style?

A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.

I'm still not sold on the flamestorm idea. As much as I'd love that overwatch boost, the fact you can't even DS into range to fire it sucks and if you use the ITC building rules then a lot of threatening charge units can either LOS it or fairly reliably charge from outside the 8".

Given we're talking about the Intercessor+Aggressor combo here, how do you think it compares to Vets with SIA storm bolters? A few days ago I was all on the Aggressor train too, but, dang, unless you're getting off that not moved double tap, those SIA stormbolters have some serious firepower as well.

The main advantage I see to keeping with the Primaris is having as big a squad as possible if you're gonna burn CP to DS and then use the +1 to wound stratagem.

 grouchoben wrote:
A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.

You can take the stalker bolt rifle and move without penalty.

 Primark G wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.

You can take the stalker bolt rifle and move without penalty.

With only 1 shot per model though. It's not bad but I don't think I'm going to be taking that gun ever, especially with the increased cost for it.

 SputnikDX wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
A simple 5-man assault intercessor squad with a single aggressor attached is only 140pts. Really mobile troop choice that can spray a lot of dakka, run like crazy, cap objectives with obsec, kite, and get in people's faces.

You can take the stalker bolt rifle and move without penalty.

With only 1 shot per model though. It's not bad but I don't think I'm going to be taking that gun ever, especially with the increased cost for it.

Agreed. 2 shots are always better than one.

That’s why I’m torn on auto vs rapid fire bolt rifles. There are a number of legitimate advantages to both.

I think hellfire is often going to be the best option. Things like plaguebearers and orks don’t rely on armour at all, but have invulnerable saves instead. Auto rifles give you 9” of extra range for 2 helldire shots, as well as letting you advance and shoot (including “advancing” away from nearby enemies. I think auto rifles are clearly the best option against this kind of target.

On the other hand, ap certainly matters. Putting down dark reapers in cover is best done with good ap, and s4 is good enough. So rapid fire rifles are best here.

I think my approach would be to use rifles that matched other models in the unit. Auto rifles with 4 aggressors and an inceptor. Rapid fire with 4 hellblasters and an inceptor. Have the intergressor squads rush forward while the interblasters plod along behind.

Im also really interested in bikes. They seem a great way to get lots of dakka on a target. A squad of 5 with an extra storm bolter costs less than 150pts and can spit out 24 shots. That’s good dakka!

Edit: Is my enhanced edition codex right about the cost of the bolt carbine, or is it a misprint? It’s double the price of an identical auto bolt rifle. Seems odd.

I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

Mandragola wrote:


That’s why I’m torn on auto vs rapid fire bolt rifles. There are a number of legitimate advantages to both.

I think hellfire is often going to be the best option. Things like plaguebearers and orks don’t rely on armour at all, but have invulnerable saves instead. Auto rifles give you 9” of extra range for 2 helldire shots, as well as letting you advance and shoot (including “advancing” away from nearby enemies. I think auto rifles are clearly the best option against this kind of target.

On the other hand, ap certainly matters. Putting down dark reapers in cover is best done with good ap, and s4 is good enough. So rapid fire rifles are best here.

I think my approach would be to use rifles that matched other models in the unit. Auto rifles with 4 aggressors and an inceptor. Rapid fire with 4 hellblasters and an inceptor. Have the intergressor squads rush forward while the interblasters plod along behind.

Im also really interested in bikes. They seem a great way to get lots of dakka on a target. A squad of 5 with an extra storm bolter costs less than 150pts and can spit out 24 shots. That’s good dakka!

Edit: Is my enhanced edition codex right about the cost of the bolt carbine, or is it a misprint? It’s double the price of an identical auto bolt rifle. Seems odd.

I think this is about right. The Fortis teams that I've worked out are similar, either they are assault with Auto Bolt Rifles and Aggressors (and 5 Gravis Suits giving everything T5 is pretty worthwhile) and can focus on mobility, good firepower against most targets and decent melee with a bunch of power fists or you're using rapid fire for reduced mobility but more cost effective fire. I wouldn't count out the standard 5 man Intercessor squad with a Bolt Rifle though, it doesn't get any extra rules but SIA is enough to make them efficient for the cost.

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

 SputnikDX wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
Well, I guess passion counts for something, even if its misplaced and used to fuel far-reaching proclamations that are demonstrably false. You know who you are.

I'll clarify for others to understand, though - I didn't choose the Bolt Rifles on this squad because -1 AP doesn't overcome the loss of shooting for when I advance. And I want to advance. It does the most damage at 18'' and I also want to make sure it gets into cover or contest an objective. That's the role of this unit. My gamble was that the lack of -1 AP would be made up for by an extra couple round of shooting for both the Aggressors and the Intercessors.

If this Primaris anvil is what drew the ire of the fictional Hive Tyrant in this ever more confusion and nonsensically elaborate fake scenario - then I welcome it. Better it than my soft Vet squads, dreadnoughts, my Interblaster squad, etc. I see that as a win. He won't get through 10 models - simply not enough swings even if he runs the board on everything.

As for this fictional Trukk scenario - this is actually a great point in a vacuum. Transports are often perfect for soaking overwatch. If you fear this is going to happen, you have time to react with a unit this mobile, though. Transports telegraph their intentions really clearly.

What's the point in advancing? There aren't any objectives on the table, and if there were, you'd just deploy scouts onto all of them and they would be unable to be removed for the entire game. And without that additional -1 AP how are you ever going to beat 7 Guillimans with Wings in a fist fight?

Kidding aside, I think mobility is really great for Primaris and, having given it more thought, worth the trade. Plus, even though regular bolt rifles will be shooting twice at AP-2 at 18" with kraken rounds, the auto bolt rifles will... be shooting at AP-2 at 18" with vengeance rounds. You'll only see a payoff at closer range for the bolt rifles, which you'd probably want to avoid anyway, so advancing backwards and blasting dudes non-stop seems great. My only schtick is that by constantly advancing you're not utilizing those aggressors to full effectiveness, but I suppose that's just the trade-off. Now the real question is if it's worth the extra point to get all that.

That's true, in that situation you would give up the double fire - but I didn't ever feel like I needed to be that mobile as the game went on. I liked having the option, but it didn't turn out to be needed. The goal I set for myself early was to get my Intercessors and Aggressors in range to blast immediately, then castle up and dakka until silenced by relying on T5, 2+ cover save, and more threats in the backline. The real question is whether T5 was worth the cost of losing so many SIA shots. I'm going to try it again, but this time using 9 Intercessors with autos and 1 Aggressor. Going to grab some BA scouts to act as my screen in this next game as well, because they were so exposed a couple of Farseers could have smited them into oblivion.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.

The forgot to give DW a way to turn off forewarning, so don't forget that if you try to DS vs Aeldari, they will erase one unit before they get a shot off. That seems really bad for DW.

 Primark G wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.

Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.

Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.

The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.

Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.

The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.

Oh no 2 s4 ap-1 shots per guy. I just don't see the value in such a squad. If they had the sniper rule absolutely, but they don't and they just don't seem worth it at all for 20 points a model.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.

Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.

The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.

Oh no 2 s4 ap-1 shots per guy. I just don't see the value in such a squad. If they had the sniper rule absolutely, but they don't and they just don't seem worth it at all for 20 points a model.

This is DW, where weapon strength means nothing - they'll still wound on 2s with AP-1. Or they could hit S4 AP-3 at 24'', or S4 AP-2 at 36''. There's some value there for long range plinking.

If they received the sniper rule, they'd be downright ridiculous.

There is still the issue of how to engage crap like Disintegrator boats. These things are everywhere now.

Lemondish wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I could see a squad with stalkers as a good backfield camper.

I can't. I feel like deathwatch need to be used aggressively because they will not win any shootout with another shooty army. If you want backline take two and a half units of guardsmen. I'll take 20 flimsy and warm bodies for 5 beefy boy bodies.

Currently I am planning to run two veteran squads loaded with shotguns and frag cannons to clear out up close and a Primaris kill team with five Intercessors and five Hellblasters... I will prolly take bolt rifles. I could see someone wanting stalkers depending on the rest of their list though.

Why shotguns? I can't help but feel they are still inferior to a normal boltgun. I can see people doing the stalker thing as people mention it a lot, but the squads using them have really poor offensive output for their points both the primaris and normal variants.

The stalker boltgun is actually Heavy 2 bolt rifle, which I think is good when paired with SIA. I am actually thinking of using a normal kill team, with a Terminator taking SB and PF and bearing CML, a naked Vanguard in case enemy charges in, then as many Veteran as possible with as many Stalker Boltguns plus 1 ML. Put them in back field to act as fire base. When pairing the right ammo with the right Stratagems and Mission Tactics, it is perfect in "sniping" Flyrants, Malanthropes, Wraiths, and even those Elf and Necron vehicles.

Oh no 2 s4 ap-1 shots per guy. I just don't see the value in such a squad. If they had the sniper rule absolutely, but they don't and they just don't seem worth it at all for 20 points a model.

This is DW, where weapon strength means nothing - they'll still wound on 2s with AP-1. Or they could hit S4 AP-3 at 24'', or S4 AP-2 at 36''. There's some value there for long range plinking.

If they received the sniper rule, they'd be downright ridiculous.

They're ap0 if you use hellfire rounds. The primaris ones have built in ap-2, but have only 1 shot. You can pay 20 points for a chainsword stalker vet or 20 points for a intercessor with a better gun and superior statline.

Yeah fair point on the sniper thing. That would make them too good I agree.

Martel732 wrote:
The forgot to give DW a way to turn off forewarning, so don't forget that if you try to DS vs Aeldari, they will erase one unit before they get a shot off. That seems really bad for DW.

Drop pod.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

They're ap0 if you use hellfire rounds. The primaris ones have built in ap-2, but have only 1 shot. You can pay 20 points for a chainsword stalker vet or 20 points for a intercessor with a better gun and superior statline.

Yeah fair point on the sniper thing. That would make them too good I agree.

The Stalker Boltgun for DW Veterans are Heavy 2 AP-1. They really are Heavy 2 Bolt Rifles. I think the price is high but for a unit holding backfield objectives I can't think of a better gun for the basic boys. Volume of fire wins in all cases, so the Stalker Boltgun is a better gun than the Stalker Bolt Rifle. The extra wound is important though, don't get me wrong. I do think Veterans will be more suited to front line blasting and making sure they shoot everything on the board before they can be shot at and Primaris better suited to holding objectives.

 SputnikDX wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The forgot to give DW a way to turn off forewarning, so don't forget that if you try to DS vs Aeldari, they will erase one unit before they get a shot off. That seems really bad for DW.

Drop pod.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

They're ap0 if you use hellfire rounds. The primaris ones have built in ap-2, but have only 1 shot. You can pay 20 points for a chainsword stalker vet or 20 points for a intercessor with a better gun and superior statline.

Yeah fair point on the sniper thing. That would make them too good I agree.

The Stalker Boltgun for DW Veterans are Heavy 2 AP-1. They really are Heavy 2 Bolt Rifles. I think the price is high but for a unit holding backfield objectives I can't think of a better gun for the basic boys. Volume of fire wins in all cases, so the Stalker Boltgun is a better gun than the Stalker Bolt Rifle. The extra wound is important though, don't get me wrong. I do think Veterans will be more suited to front line blasting and making sure they shoot everything on the board before they can be shot at and Primaris better suited to holding objectives.

I double checked the codex and turns out you are correct on the ap-1 and I was wrong. I was just looking at battlescribe and alas she has failed me. Time to send that one in to be reviewed. Thank you spotting my error and correcting me.

That ap-1 is a big deal so yeah I suppose I am coming around a bit to a camping sniper squad firing off some rounds. I'm still not 100% sold on it for the points, but I can see your point better now.

Yeah, a drop pod does work. But do you bring it in your general list? Tough question.

Drop pods don't work for primaris, though. And they are the ones I would be most likely to use. I think the 1W boys are not viable.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, a drop pod does work. But do you bring it in your general list? Tough question.

Drop pods don't work for primaris, though. And they are the ones I would be most likely to use. I think the 1W boys are not viable.

T2 you can drop the first initial strike and a dreadnought to both clear out Aeldari that were planning on shooting your deep strike and possibly make them waste CP to shoot the dready. T3 you can drop the Primaris in. I know you don't like holding units for that long in reserves but I think possibly it might be worth your while depending on the mission type. If you're playing ITC you just need to Kill 1 Hold 1 for 2 turns. Then Turn 3 you come in with the big swing when your real force comes to party. I'm just so glad that Imperium finally has some deep striking units that can SHOOT besides Scions.

One thing I've noticed with Deep Strike is the new beta rules for reserves harms DW in a big way. Every single veteran or intercessor model is two power, so getting the half on/half off is going to be very, very tricky.

If the situation calls for it, I'll hold them.

ITC has three types of missions, so I'm not sure what Kill 1 Hold 1 is referring to. Clearly, I must not use that kind.

Agreed, some competition for scions is nice, but as you point out, the power thing is quite annoying.

Martel732 wrote:
If the situation calls for it, I'll hold them.

ITC has three types of missions, so I'm not sure what Kill 1 Hold 1 is referring to. Clearly, I must not use that kind.

Agreed, some competition for scions is nice, but as you point out, the power thing is quite annoying.

I just used the basic ITC rules, I don't know what other ones there are. You kill a unit on your turn you get a point. You hold an objective on your turn you get a point. That kinda thing.

Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh, I've never played that. I always do the combined arms missions. They are much more balanced it sounds like.

I don't think there's any standard format for tournaments. The ITC guys like to pretend that theirs is the definitive option but it's not used everywhere. Basically I find I have to alter my list for every tournament I go to, so as to meet whatever variant of army selection and victory condition rules they've gone with.

I think it's important that we nail down the names of the various kill team formats. I think Intergressors works well for the 5 intercessor, 4 aggressor, 1 inceptor squad. I would like to propose "Heltergressors" for 5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters and 1 inceptor. I'd initially gone with "Interblasters", but Heltergressors seems funnier to me, and therefore better.

I'm going with 5 intercessor, 3 aggressor, 2 inceptor first because I don't want to buy another box of aggressors atm.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going with 5 intercessor, 3 aggressor, 2 inceptor first because I don't want to buy another box of aggressors atm.

That makes sense. I'm wondering where I'll get all the shoulder pads for Inceptors and Aggressors. There are only two on the sprue. I might get starter sets, steal the pads and some gubbins to make my intercessors look more deathwatch-y and ebay the frag cannons and dreadnoughts to make my money back.

Oh and you seemed to question whether I was right about who won the UK GT. Weird to do that, as I was there and stuff. You can see the final positions here: https://scontent.flhr2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32370933_1961574817195322_8658989325293191168_o.png?_nc_cat=0&oh=9a1440500d58e2c1d9ef161b44d3f856&oe=5B8E1566

Did I? Didn't mean to.

Wait, I knew Orks won that one. I'm very confused.

Mandragola wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going with 5 intercessor, 3 aggressor, 2 inceptor first because I don't want to buy another box of aggressors atm.

That makes sense. I'm wondering where I'll get all the shoulder pads for Inceptors and Aggressors. There are only two on the sprue. I might get starter sets, steal the pads and some gubbins to make my intercessors look more deathwatch-y and ebay the frag cannons and dreadnoughts to make my money back.

Oh and you seemed to question whether I was right about who won the UK GT. Weird to do that, as I was there and stuff. You can see the final positions here: https://scontent.flhr2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/32370933_1961574817195322_8658989325293191168_o.png?_nc_cat=0&oh=9a1440500d58e2c1d9ef161b44d3f856&oe=5B8E1566

Few things I've noticed:
Start Collecting comes with an upgrade sprue for "free."
Deathwatch Venerable Dreadnoughts are just Venerable Dreadnought priced with the upgrade sprue for actually free.
Deathwatch Terminator Captain also comes with the upgrade sprue for actually free.
Deathwatch Intercessors are just Intercessors and the sprue with the exact cost of the sprue tacked on so... don't get cheated.