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Terrible design.

Yeah, I rarely use the Burning Blade but since I already greenstuffed a custom flaming sword onto my Grav Captain I like to have the option for a more reliable swing.

Honestly I'm thinking maybe 1000 points of Primaris is all that's really needed. I have allied them to my Biel Tan Eldar a few times to great effect, so maybe I'll look into another ally? Perhaps Imperial Guard, always loved them Leman Russ tanks!

 darkcloak wrote:
Yeah, I rarely use the Burning Blade but since I already greenstuffed a custom flaming sword onto my Grav Captain I like to have the option for a more reliable swing.

Honestly I'm thinking maybe 1000 points of Primaris is all that's really needed. I have allied them to my Biel Tan Eldar a few times to great effect, so maybe I'll look into another ally? Perhaps Imperial Guard, always loved them Leman Russ tanks!

I mean it CAN just be a malfunctioning power sword. And now it's on fire!

 darkcloak wrote:

Honestly I'm thinking maybe 1000 points of Primaris is all that's really needed. I have allied them to my Biel Tan Eldar a few times to great effect, so maybe I'll look into another ally? Perhaps Imperial Guard, always loved them Leman Russ tanks!

Now that's some heresy!

Hi everyone.
Recently got back into painting and wanted to do an all-Primaris army (no Deathwatch!).

Although I've been painting for a while, I've never really played a lot so I don't have a general idea on what's good on tabletop.

I've been fiddling around with the army list and this is what i have planned for 1,750pts.




I've kind of based it on the models that you get from Dark Imperium (that's why the Intercessors and Inceptors have the default weapon choice)

Any advice on actually making the list even semi-viable would be great.

Oh and also haven't decided which Chapter Tactic to go for.

Lastly,
- What are the most optimal weapon choices for Units in general?
Since Intercessors and Inceptors and Hellblasters seem to have Assault, Rapid Fire and Heavy versions... wasn't sure really what to take.

Any help would be great!!

For intercessors and hellblasters the go to weapon is almost always the rapid fire with occasionally their being a use for the assault options (but that's mostly in deathwatch) and never a use for the heavy (they're garbage in both cases". The aggressor bolt version is strictly better than the incredibly limited flamer version. Inceptors have a use with both plasma and bolter. It largely depends on what you use them for, but typically I've gone with the bolter versions.

Repulsors as a unit are pretty bad. They're very expensive for what they do and as it has a credible amount of firepower it will get focused pretty heavily so its dead turn 1 or t2 if you're lucky. The redemptor dread is not awful, but its's not a standout choice by any means. Funnily enough it works best with the sneaky beaky raven guard boys due to the -1 to hit being a big deal for a vehicle in particular.

With that out of the way for chapter tactics we have a few solid options.

Raven Guard - The go to for most lists due to how universally useful the -1 to hit is. I hate -1 to hit and wish it was removed from the game, but as it is I suggest using it. The chapter tactic is very good and the stratagem can be MASSIVE as you can build your entire army around it. You could have a massive alpha strike using it and it has GROSS synergy with aggressors, hellblasters and the banner. Forward deploy a bunch of boyos and screen them with intercessors. If you go first you light everyone up with 19 shots an aggressor on average and 2 shots a hellblasters all re-rolling to hit (Use the chapter master upgrade for the captain) and re-rolling 1s to wound. Also you took the relic banner because you are a smart guy so if they do kill a guy he fires back on a 3+ so even if they do get first you can still put down serious damage. --- It's a very single minded strategy, but it can win you games.

Ultramarines can work based entirely off of the fact that they have the massive force multiplier that is Guiliman. If you don't want to use him then I'd avoid ultramarines as raven guard will do it better.

Deathwatch are the best option for pure Primaris I'd say. SIA makes intercessors a big threat and the ability to mix squads is very helpful for keeping your aggressors, inceptors and hellblasters alive. They also have access to better stratagems than the other options (outside the niche raven guard alpha set up).

Blood Angels I had a lot of fun with. Their superior melee skills can give intercessors a bit of boost and their relic banner grants a 5+++ aura of ignore wounds so that is cool. They gave great supporting characters and the librarian dread to flesh out your options a bit.

Also never forget the FW Chaplain dreadnought. It's a great HQ choice that can bring the hurt all the while being hidden via the character rule. It can also pack a twin lascannon to bring invaluable anti-tank to the Primaris line that largely lacks anti tank outside of over charged plasma.

I feel like there is a bit more nuance to the chapter tactics options, but as an Imperial Fists player that's likely my bias showing.

Deathwatch is undoubtably our top dog, no doubt. It has the flexibility to make our shooting effective, the mixed units give bonuses that we desperately need and basically they're Primaris+1. To be fair, they're supposed to be so I can't fault the army for that.

Next up would be Dark Angels, namely because they can do more for plasma than any other option we've got access to and since plasma is the main focus of our anti-tank and anti-elite this becomes fairly important.

Blood Angels makes our reasonably good (at least when compared to regular Marines) combat better, as does Space Wolves, but neither really does anything for our shooting which is what we need to build an army around. That said, if you like the armies playing aggressive and punching things when you charge after shooting will be better than the rest of the options in this list. Reivers look better for these guys than anyone else.

Raven Guard are basically one of the best choices for any marine army, but even more so for an all Primaris one. Since our CP usage is mostly reroll based (save for the use of Chapter Master) you can be very aggressive with this army and lay the hurt down fast. Plus due to when you place infiltrators you can place them somewhere defensive if you end up going second.

Ultramarines with Guilliman are our next best shooting option, basically forming a large bubble that moves up and claims ground and tries to hold it. Dropping Guilliman for a Chapter Master'd Primaris CPT basically gives you the same effect (rerolling everything) in a smaller bubble but is easier to fit into a list and frees up points for more bodies in your army. Just don't bother with trying to form a castle in your deployment zone unless you're playing against an aggressive melee focused army since you'll need to move in order to be in range with your guns.

Imperial Fists are the next option I see worth mentioning, namely because ignoring cover can help murder xenos and Guard more effectively. Basically one of the better offensive buffs, they basically play like the UM minus Guilliman, but with more teeth in uprooting stuff that likes to hang out in cover (snipers, guard, ect).

I feel like the Repulsor isn't as bad as mentioned, but that comes down to your meta. If you play somewhere that is still gearing up to kill hordes it'll do a good job as a means of reducing your drops and bringing solid fire support. If you play somewhere that is geared up more for killing Knights, then leave it at home and go MSU and fill as many slots as you can for as much CP as you can. Even if we don't have as many things we can spend CP on, a fair bit of what's left is pricy and it's worth having as much as you can to have some flexibility in how you use it.

Gotta mention Azrael along with Dark Angels. The 4++ bubble helps primaris a lot.

 axisofentropy wrote:
Gotta mention Azrael along with Dark Angels. The 4++ bubble helps primaris a lot.

True. I mean it's a strong Primaris army without him, but it's even stronger with him.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
For intercessors and hellblasters the go to weapon is almost always the rapid fire with occasionally their being a use for the assault options (but that's mostly in deathwatch) and never a use for the heavy (they're garbage in both cases".

Actually, I found a use for heavy bolt rifles. I agree with Tibs, except in the case that you, like me, are running pure infantry primaris. It's nice to have one or two units you can leave on your rear objective(s) while the rest of your army advances as a blob.
This concept could also work with hellblasters, but only if they are Dark angels, who won't need a captain as a baby sitter. Grim Resolve gives them the reroll they need.

Hi guys, has anybody had any experience running multiple redemptors? 3 to be exact, can they be effective? in either loadout?

thanks

Process wrote:
Hi guys, has anybody had any experience running multiple redemptors? 3 to be exact, can they be effective? in either loadout?

thanks

General rule for playing Marines for running the big stuff has been to run at minimum 2, but preferably 3 to ensure to dilute the effectiveness of your opponent's shooting.

That said, it's going to come down to how much big stuff you got in your list and how much anti-tank you regularly see in your local meta.

Process wrote:
Hi guys, has anybody had any experience running multiple redemptors? 3 to be exact, can they be effective? in either loadout?

thanks

I've run two. One quickbuild (which is an anti-hordes config) and one with the exact opposite options (which is a cheaper, crappier anti-hordes config) I generally deep strike them right next to the biggest model count units and have them dig in. Most of the units int eh game don't get better than a -1 to AP in melee, so a single redemptor can be a hell of a roadblock. The fact that they can drop and eat other light armor units with the STR14 melee attacks is pretty good.

I prefer the Heavy Onslaught cannon hands down - like most dreadnought plasma weapons, the plasma cannon just doesn't have enough attacks to make it worthwhile. The Icarus Rocket Pod is an auto-include as it can help mitigate a few bad attack rolls and threaten flyers.

I personally prefer a Redemptor (with onslaught cannon) and a dual melee contemptor. One drops against he biggest horde threat and the other against the biggest armor threat.

I expect anti tank to go through the roof with Knights about. I was thinking of running 3 with full gat and icarus loadout. I suppose my real worry is that its 600+pts gone in the first turn.

Process wrote:
I expect anti tank to go through the roof with Knights about. I was thinking of running 3 with full gat and icarus loadout. I suppose my real worry is that its 600+pts gone in the first turn.

The bigger worry is that a redemptor won't do much more than scratch the paint on a knight in the shooting phase and in melee it's about the same as the similar priced Contemptor but not as durable. The contemptor can also take a multi-melta, which can carve a chunk out of knight if it connects.

If you are Deathwatch you can deepstrike the dreadnoughts. Otherwise, you'll need to take advantage of as much terrain as you can or switch to fielding something like hellblasters that can do mass plasma damage.

S5 -1 AP with high-rof is not a terrible profile vs IKs. Much better than a single multi-melta.

Zustiur wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
For intercessors and hellblasters the go to weapon is almost always the rapid fire with occasionally their being a use for the assault options (but that's mostly in deathwatch) and never a use for the heavy (they're garbage in both cases".

Actually, I found a use for heavy bolt rifles. I agree with Tibs, except in the case that you, like me, are running pure infantry primaris. It's nice to have one or two units you can leave on your rear objective(s) while the rest of your army advances as a blob.
This concept could also work with hellblasters, but only if they are Dark angels, who won't need a captain as a baby sitter. Grim Resolve gives them the reroll they need.

Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

Process wrote:
I expect anti tank to go through the roof with Knights about. I was thinking of running 3 with full gat and icarus loadout. I suppose my real worry is that its 600+pts gone in the first turn.

The bigger worry is that a redemptor won't do much more than scratch the paint on a knight in the shooting phase and in melee it's about the same as the similar priced Contemptor but not as durable. The contemptor can also take a multi-melta, which can carve a chunk out of knight if it connects.

If you are Deathwatch you can deepstrike the dreadnoughts. Otherwise, you'll need to take advantage of as much terrain as you can or switch to fielding something like hellblasters that can do mass plasma damage.

Once again, please don't use the Multi-Melta. It's a bad weapon.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
With that out of the way for chapter tactics we have a few solid options.

Raven Guard - The go to for most lists due to how universally useful the -1 to hit is. I hate -1 to hit and wish it was removed from the game, but as it is I suggest using it. The chapter tactic is very good and the stratagem can be MASSIVE as you can build your entire army around it. You could have a massive alpha strike using it and it has GROSS synergy with aggressors, hellblasters and the banner. Forward deploy a bunch of boyos and screen them with intercessors. If you go first you light everyone up with 19 shots an aggressor on average and 2 shots a hellblasters all re-rolling to hit (Use the chapter master upgrade for the captain) and re-rolling 1s to wound. Also you took the relic banner because you are a smart guy so if they do kill a guy he fires back on a 3+ so even if they do get first you can still put down serious damage. --- It's a very single minded strategy, but it can win you games.

Deathwatch are the best option for pure Primaris I'd say. SIA makes intercessors a big threat and the ability to mix squads is very helpful for keeping your aggressors, inceptors and hellblasters alive. They also have access to better stratagems than the other options (outside the niche raven guard alpha set up).

I'm currently struggling to make the decision between Ravenguard, Deathwatch and Dark Angels for a pure primaris infantry army.

Gravis Captain (or watchmaster), libby, 3x assault intercessors, 3x bolter aggressors, 2x plasma inceptors, 3x assault hellblasters.

Ravenguard has the aggressors in double tap range turn 1 and the entire army is usually -1 to hit, and assault weapons help with kiting. Deathwatch is the more aggressive side - better bolters, aggressors deep striking. I'm not sure how to make up the mixed squads yet as its max size of 10 and what i'd really like to do is give the hellblasters an aggressor buddy so they can run and gun. Dark Angels is purely about WOTDA and using the extra range of the assault guns to enable more standing still. best set of psychic powers for them too.

I don't personally think 'better' covers the difference between a bolter and an SIA Stormbolter.

They are night and day in terms of threat. 10 vets with storm bolters and WM support can delete a Daemon Prince in one round of firing. Drop 9 damage on a Russ (using the doctrine). Kill 26 Boyz. DW vets are exponentially more deadly than any other marine troop choice. I think they're not making an impact in tournaments right now, but will when people start to integrate them into soup.

In terms of Primaris, I myself use primaris legs alongside vet bodies, heads, arms and weapons to make my vet killteams; they look a bit shorter than Primaris, but by the right amount. It's an option worth considering when you're weighing up your new army choice

 grouchoben wrote:
I don't personally think 'better' covers the difference between a bolter and an SIA Stormbolter.

They are night and day in terms of threat.

They are. The increase in firepower makes the army posted above a threat from every single unit, rather than giving the enemy the opportunity to ignore the intercessors.

HOWEVER, universal -1 to hit is very, very good. There's enough plasma there that the Dark Angels probably lose out, but it's a true toss up between ravenguard and deathwatch, even without the benefits of mixed squads.

Yeah deathwatch stormbolters are excellent. Not really anything to do with Primaris tactics, but that’s ok.

Someone I know ran an army with 3x10 squads of deathwatch vets. Each had 7 vets, a terminator, vanguard vet and bike. They all had stormbolters and three vets had stormshields. Together with a lot of other horrible stuff (a guard battalion and BA supreme command) they went 5:0 at heat 1 of the UKGT.

Deathwatch Primaris are in an odd state compared to the veterans. They don’t have any way to get invulnerable saves, which means they are arguably less durable than vets with storm shields – which can also be fearless thanks to their terminator. Compared to that Deathwatch intercessors look kind of ordinary.

Where deathwatch Primaris look good to me is with the option to deep strike hellblasters, and maybe aggressors. And meanwhile a 5 man intercessor squad becomes a pretty decent cheap-ish objective sitter, but nothing like the alpha striker that a veteran squad can be.

Mandragola wrote:
Where deathwatch Primaris look good to me is with the option to deep strike hellblasters, and maybe aggressors. And meanwhile a 5 man intercessor squad becomes a pretty decent cheap-ish objective sitter, but nothing like the alpha striker that a veteran squad can be.

At that point, the difference between Ravenguard and Deathwatch is pretty much offence vs defence and whether you want to infiltrate or deepstrike (that and the deathwatch specific stratagems are better than the marine ones)

Ericthegreen wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Where deathwatch Primaris look good to me is with the option to deep strike hellblasters, and maybe aggressors. And meanwhile a 5 man intercessor squad becomes a pretty decent cheap-ish objective sitter, but nothing like the alpha striker that a veteran squad can be.

At that point, the difference between Ravenguard and Deathwatch is pretty much offence vs defence and whether you want to infiltrate or deepstrike (that and the deathwatch specific stratagems are better than the marine ones)

You're not wrong, but I think there's a bit more to it than that. Part of the problem for ravenguard is that their troops aren't great. Ravenguard intercessors are hard to shift, but not very dangerous. But deathwatch combined squads are scary, and even their interecessors are pretty dangerous - albeit more expensive and less tough than ravenguard ones.

Ravenguard mainly want to use SftS on non-troop units, while for deathwatch a kill team is a good unit to deep strike. That means that for deathwatch the same units generate CPs and also use them, which is quite good news.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.

And still better than no shots or five shots at worse AP. We're talking about backfield objective campers here, it is not like there are better alternatives in a pure Primaris list.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.

And still better than no shots or five shots at worse AP. We're talking about backfield objective campers here, it is not like there are better alternatives in a pure Primaris list.

Honestly I think normal bolt rifles are better in that role - especially as the squad is 10 points cheaper.

Being able to move and shoot is really valuable. Having two shots instead of one is also really valuable. It's true that ap-2 is nice, but it's not all that much better than -1, and you can also do without the extra 6" of range.

Ultimately intercessors aren't really there to kill things with shooting, but t grab objectives and stay on them. It doesn't hugely matter what gun to give them, but since the cheapest gun is almost always also the best, I've never felt there was much argument about what to give them.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nah the Stalker is still terrible. 100 points for FIVE shots max is garbage.

And still better than no shots or five shots at worse AP. We're talking about backfield objective campers here, it is not like there are better alternatives in a pure Primaris list.

You'd literally be better off with Scouts with Sniper Rifles and a ML.

I know this is the Primaris discussion thread, but Stalker Rifles are just THAT bad. Not even Special Ammo and an Aggressor to make them move without penalty makes the weapon good.

What are everyone's load-outs for Reivers?

Combat Knife? Carbines?

Grapnel Launchers + Grav-chutes?

Recently got a box of them but not sure what the optimal loadout is

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd literally be better off with Scouts with Sniper Rifles and a ML.

I know this is the Primaris discussion thread, but Stalker Rifles are just THAT bad. Not even Special Ammo and an Aggressor to make them move without penalty makes the weapon good.

But if we are talking about Primaris models only, then scouts are not an option. Regular rifles are obviously the weapon to equip most of your squads, but it the squads purpose is to hold the backfield objective and they won't be in the rapid fire range anyway, you might as well take the extra AP and range. I agree that it is a bad weapon, it should have sniper rule. But it still can have a purpose in the very limited Primaris arsenal.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You'd literally be better off with Scouts with Sniper Rifles and a ML.

I know this is the Primaris discussion thread, but Stalker Rifles are just THAT bad. Not even Special Ammo and an Aggressor to make them move without penalty makes the weapon good.

But if we are talking about Primaris models only, then scouts are not an option. Regular rifles are obviously the weapon to equip most of your squads, but it the squads purpose is to hold the backfield objective and they won't be in the rapid fire range anyway, you might as well take the extra AP and range. I agree that it is a bad weapon, it should have sniper rule. But it still can have a purpose in the very limited Primaris arsenal.

It’s possible to imagine a scenario where stalker rifles would be marginally better than normal rifles. But it doesn’t come up in every game. In lots of games I need my intercessors to move forward to screen, or the enemy is rushing me and I need to be mobile.

So when I’m designing an army for an event there’d never be a case for including stalker rifles. There won’t always be an objective that needs a unit sat on it. Even if there is, I might well have a unit with some real firepower that’s better at the job. Even if I don’t, a unit with normal rifles is usually as good as or better than stalker rifles would be – for example if anything ever comes within 15” of them.

And so for all these reasons, I’d never put stalker rifles in my army. It’s true that they’d be better if they were sat on an objective between 30 and 36” from a target, but as far as I can see that’s the only time normal rifles aren’t better. They need to be heavy 2 or have the sniper rule or something.

I made myself a squad of scouts with shotguns out of some very heavily converted reivers. I think they came out pretty well, and maybe one day I'll make a scout squad. I might even base their guns on stalker bolt rifles with extended barrels.

Mandragola wrote:
It’s possible to imagine a scenario where stalker rifles would be marginally better than normal rifles. But it doesn’t come up in every game. In lots of games I need my intercessors to move forward to screen, or the enemy is rushing me and I need to be mobile.

So when I’m designing an army for an event there’d never be a case for including stalker rifles. There won’t always be an objective that needs a unit sat on it. Even if there is, I might well have a unit with some real firepower that’s better at the job. Even if I don’t, a unit with normal rifles is usually as good as or better than stalker rifles would be – for example if anything ever comes within 15” of them.

And so for all these reasons, I’d never put stalker rifles in my army. It’s true that they’d be better if they were sat on an objective between 30 and 36” from a target, but as far as I can see that’s the only time normal rifles aren’t better. They need to be heavy 2 or have the sniper rule or something.

I made myself a squad of scouts with shotguns out of some very heavily converted reivers. I think they came out pretty well, and maybe one day I'll make a scout squad. I might even base their guns on stalker bolt rifles with extended barrels.

Fair points. (they're better between 16 and 36 inches though.) I can certainly see that their role is so situational and benefit so small, so that they're not worth including. Oh, and excellent scouts, I was contemplating doing something similar, good to see that it works well!