People seem to forget this is like ffg 4th mini game version for Star Wars. The only one with relatively 40k strong sales was swing and even that game died down after it had its hey day. Which was only 2 quarters where it was the number one selling miniature game via retail sales and that was during the lull where 40k had only 1 new 40k release.

Sure a Star Wars game could but it won’t eapecially not right now with the huge amount of sales from 40k. I’d be surprised if xwing current outsells AoS, but we will find out in about a month when the new retail numbers come out.

iron_within88 wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

iron_within88 wrote:
That's.....alot of money for low budget models that are closer to those army men packets you buy from supermarkets for a few $ rather than games workshop quality.

Comparison

7 Stormtroopers in unit expansion is $24.95 USD
10 Dreadspears (dark elves) is $35 USD and vastly superior in quality.

Ah... I guess the Stormtroopers have some wide open flat areas that aren't quite up to GW lover standards... skulls, spikes or runes on every available surface.

If a model looks exactly like the film version it is copying, why is it considered a poor model?

if i ever feel like watching star wars again ill make sure to keep an eye out for those obvious mold lines on the storm troopers armour they just painted over.

There may be some, it depends if the prop makers were as lazy a modellers as you apparently are if you're criticising models for something that they practically all have, whether plastic resin or metal.

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

Interesting, but I would never have thought that Battletech once overtook 40k in popularity, so I guess this must have been from when I was a wee lad. However 40k was what introduced me to wargaming, as I suspect many others. Maybe not the boardgame for me, but at least the universe was worth talking about and a great introduction to armies and factions, etc.

I had no idea Battletech existed until I spotted it from a VLOG, so at least here in NZ 40k is "king".

 SirStudent wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

Interesting, but I would never have thought that Battletech once overtook 40k in popularity, so I guess this must have been from when I was a wee lad. However 40k was what introduced me to wargaming, as I suspect many others. Maybe not the boardgame for me, but at least the universe was worth talking about and a great introduction to armies and factions, etc.


yeah pretty much the 80's and early 90's, when there were btech simulotors in chicago, back then GW was a minor company at best. 40k was in its rogue trader/ 2nd ed era and was not even a blip on the radar of gaming.

I had no idea Battletech existed until I spotted it from a VLOG, so at least here in NZ 40k is "king".

Oh yeah, Sydney had a couple of BT simulator installations.
Linked 4 on 4 player games. About the time of the 3050 release (the return of the old Star League/clans) 1990ish.
It had a cartoon on TV, too (which featured the clans).

BT was big back in the late 80s and early 90s. Huuuuuge, the biggest. Biggly.

When 40k didn't have any plastic vehicles, it wasn't uncommon to see the odd BT model on 40k tables (There were a few 1:100 scale "Locust" walker mechs around - about "sentinel" sized).

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Ah... I guess the Stormtroopers have some wide open flat areas that aren't quite up to GW lover standards... skulls, spikes or runes on every available surface.

If a model looks exactly like the film version it is copying, why is it considered a poor model?

I feel the need to say "have you seen space marines?" I mean, the standard tac marine has even larger flat areas than a Storm Trooper. Thinking about it makes me want to convert a bunch of storm troopers with Space Wolves kitsch to see how they look.


But I think we all agree that Storm Troopers should look like they do in the movies, or something is wrong. They follow some very different design philosophies though (Storm Troopers are meant to be generic and faceless- much like Necrons).

Licensing is always a core issue and inevitably means a game has a limited lifespan (until the license runs out and isn't renewed).
Now, if the license holder, Disney itself, got into the business, then things would get interesting. That could be the real threat to GW: if the big boys like Hasbro and Disney decided to jump into that pond themselves with both feet, rather than just license things to smaller companies.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Licensing is always a core issue and inevitably means a game has a limited lifespan (until the license runs out and isn't renewed).
Now, if the license holder, Disney itself, got into the business, then things would get interesting. That could be the real threat to GW: if the big boys like Hasbro and Disney decided to jump into that pond themselves with both feet, rather than just license things to smaller companies.

That isn't going to happen - Disney don't directly produce any of the merchandise. They much prefer for other business to take all of the risk while they get a nice lump sum up front.

 thekingofkings wrote:


That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

The North America numbers are the only ones we really have. They indicate that 40k isn't selling more than X-Wing- but all contradicting information is literally just made up.


But the numbers suggest something else is going on- that GW's biggest competition in the rising generation isn't from X-Wing.


Games are booming right now. We've had about a decade of solid growth in the gaming industry- and throughout that time, GW kept claiming that their poor sales were in line with "market expectations." At the time, I wondered if it was just spin- trying to say "hey, no one is doing well right now" (when in reality Asmodee and CMON were growing like mad).

But the numbers back them up if you're specific. Tabletop miniatures games have not been leading the charge- those sales have been relatively flat.

It seems to me that a lot of potential tabletop miniatures gamers are getting into board games instead. FFG's advantage in this market is that they're a trusted brand for all of those board gamers if they want to make the jump.

GW has been putting out board games to compete with this- and they've been escalating. I think they've got a good strategy going- support their board games from here rather than try to make them all into 'gateway games.'

phillv85 wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

It is unlikely that something takes over 40k, but comparing it to Battletech, it can happen that 40k kills itself and something else is there to take the spot (like Warhammer took the place from Battletech and 40k from Warhammer)

 kodos wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

It is unlikely that something takes over 40k, but comparing it to Battletech, it can happen that 40k kills itself and something else is there to take the spot (like Warhammer took the place from Battletech and 40k from Warhammer)

FASA is a kind of unique situation. They didn't go down due to losses.

One of the main company owners was a father of Jordan Weissman one of the creative originators of Battletech. He fronted a lot of the money to found FASA and was a major player in the business side of the company.

He saw the downturn starting that wiped out a lot of the roleplay companies at the time and decided to cash in and retire while the going was good. FASA was big on roleplay as well as Battletech.

He and the other major stakeholders made a boat load of money selling off bits of FASA. Microsoft bought the software side to help launch the original X-box. Weissman used the BT IP to launch the Clickytech sysyem. The rest of the IPs were hived out to other interested parties. Mega money was made but in the process Battletech died as a leading wargame. Thankfully the original IP, game and fanbase was strong enough to claw itself back to life but as shadow of its former self.

It's probably a more lightly fate for GW than a competitor stealing all their business. Even then there's a massive difference between a corporate entity like GW and a privately owned company like FASA. Such a sellout mightn't even be feasible/possible.

FASA and GW did fight major battles for the science fiction wargaming players wallet in the Eighties and early Nineties. Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

The gaming-scape changes rapidly and often on a dime. To say 40k will never be overcome I don't think is accurate. Every empire has an end. 40k too will have an end where we discuss it like we do BT.

Will it be at the hands of Star Wars? I doubt it simply because the star wars IP changes hands so often and there have already been several star wars miniatures games that went absolutely nowhere.

But who knows?

niall78 wrote:
Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

Is it? Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days when GW was actually writing red numbers (i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby), especially in the US (but not only there).

And LoTR itself clearly had GW's own No.1 spot for 2-3 years there, before the bubble popped.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

(i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby),

Don't know where you got the impression those are separate eras, Kirby predates LOTR by some time, and has been involved with GW in a senior capacity since at least the early 90s when he led the buyout, and has been at GW since the 80s.

Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days

Always thought WMH was competing more with WHFB than 40k?
40k is sci fi (of whatever sub genre you want to label - gothic/dystopian likely), WMH/WHFB is hi/low fantasy?

Too many games, not enough free time.

I think this game will follow the same path than Rune Wars : lots of hype at first and plenty of people believing it would overthrow GW on its home lands, and we see what is the reality now - Rune Wars never really got off the ground.

X-Wings was popular in its time. Now, it's not the same thing. And let's not talk about Armada, shall we ?

Let's face it, FFG is unable to truly follow a game on long term to the same scales as 40k.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

niall78 wrote:
Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

Is it? Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days when GW was actually writing red numbers (i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby), especially in the US (but not only there).

This depends on the country, in Germany or better in the german speaking countries, Battletech was the big game (tournaments, leagues etc) before it died than came Warhammer Fantasy which was equal to BT's past glory mid/end 7th edition, and 40k's big time started with 5th edi.

PS:
Regarding LoTR it was nit a bubble that popped, it was just that the LoTR community was identical with the Warhammer community and therefore reacted a lot more sensitive to the new policy of reducing models per box and increase prices at the same time

niall78 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

It is unlikely that something takes over 40k, but comparing it to Battletech, it can happen that 40k kills itself and something else is there to take the spot (like Warhammer took the place from Battletech and 40k from Warhammer)

FASA is a kind of unique situation. They didn't go down due to losses.

One of the main company owners was a father of Jordan Weissman one of the creative originators of Battletech. He fronted a lot of the money to found FASA and was a major player in the business side of the company.

He saw the downturn starting that wiped out a lot of the roleplay companies at the time and decided to cash in and retire while the going was good. FASA was big on roleplay as well as Battletech.

He and the other major stakeholders made a boat load of money selling off bits of FASA. Microsoft bought the software side to help launch the original X-box. Weissman used the BT IP to launch the Clickytech sysyem. The rest of the IPs were hived out to other interested parties. Mega money was made but in the process Battletech died as a leading wargame. Thankfully the original IP, game and fanbase was strong enough to claw itself back to life but as shadow of its former self.

It's probably a more lightly fate for GW than a competitor stealing all their business. Even then there's a massive difference between a corporate entity like GW and a privately owned company like FASA. Such a sellout mightn't even be feasible/possible.

FASA and GW did fight major battles for the science fiction wargaming players wallet in the Eighties and early Nineties. Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

wasnt much of a fight, the fasa giant slapping around insignificant little 40k, hell most stores I went into had not even heard of 40k and warhammer was a minor thing as well. those old citadel miniatures were "meh" at best. I bought my first copy of rogue trader (with the shrink wrapped box of 30 marines) from the bargain bin of Waldenbooks, I dont think any more than one or two of the dozen or so games/comic shops even stocked it.

 kodos wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

niall78 wrote:
Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

Is it? Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days when GW was actually writing red numbers (i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby), especially in the US (but not only there).

This depends on the country, in Germany or better in the german speaking countries, Battletech was the big game (tournaments, leagues etc) before it died than came Warhammer Fantasy which was equal to BT's past glory mid/end 7th edition, and 40k's big time started with 5th edi.

PS:
Regarding LoTR it was nit a bubble that popped, it was just that the LoTR community was identical with the Warhammer community and therefore reacted a lot more sensitive to the new policy of reducing models per box and increase prices at the same time

Was pretty filthy when that happened with lotr, ok i can understand a price increase or reduce the model count but to reduce model count and price increase at the same time is just pushing it a bit to far and surely turned people off from making purchases, 20 man box of urak-hai went from $55 aus dollar to 10 man boxes at $35 each, that's no small change and borderline looks like they want to milk me.

So, new GW financial report. Sales up 50%, profit triple same period last year.

https://19485-presscdn-0-14-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/2017-18-Press-Statement-final-for-IR-site.pdf

I really don't think GW is in a period of decline ready to be replaced by a Star Wars game right now.

Warhammer will someday be taken out by a competitor but it wont be by a star wars miniature game. Star Wars Miniatures games have an uphill battle against their own fanbase in order to establish. There have been so many different versions of Star Wars skirmish level games that any player who feels the slightest bit unhappy with the ruleset can easily jump into a black hole of alternate systems.

We already see what happens with HH gives 7th ed lovers a route to play their 40k figures in an alternate ruleset. Many would rather move to HH than deal with the change. Star Wars Miniatures is the ultimate expression of that. A play group will start with legion, suddenly have half the players spin into an earlier system and then wonder why there aren't enough numbers for a tournament.

It doesn't help there's still a fair few feeling rather hit by the Imperial Assault to Legions change.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Warhammer will someday be taken out by a competitor but it wont be by a star wars miniature game. Star Wars Miniatures games have an uphill battle against their own fanbase in order to establish. There have been so many different versions of Star Wars skirmish level games that any player who feels the slightest bit unhappy with the ruleset can easily jump into a black hole of alternate systems.

We already see what happens with HH gives 7th ed lovers a route to play their 40k figures in an alternate ruleset. Many would rather move to HH than deal with the change. Star Wars Miniatures is the ultimate expression of that. A play group will start with legion, suddenly have half the players spin into an earlier system and then wonder why there aren't enough numbers for a tournament.

That's a very interesting point I've never thought about before but is absolutely rife in historical gaming systems. Then again historical gamers aren't as locked into one system as fantasy and sciene-fiction gamers seem to be. Jumping rule-sets in historical isn't mainly about finding the best system but finding different systems that offer differing experiences.

Of course the miniatures help in that. A Tiger tank is a Tiger tank. It's must be much more disconcerting and much more work converting a 40k army to use in Gates of Antares. Games with a strong IP in unique miniatures in many ways limit the gamer to the system they are designed for making jumping systems a very major undertaking.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It doesn't help there's still a fair few feeling rather hit by the Imperial Assault to Legions change.

It is interesting to see what will happen there.

Honestly looking at Legion now? I really don't see it overthrowing 40k for one simple reason.

FFG do not expand.

They just sit happy with the Galactic Civil War, maybe even push a little with the new trilogy but that's it. One of the major thing I noticed in my area is that SW games really died because of a lack of variety. EVERYONE wants to play the Empire. In previous Armada tournaments there was 2 rebel players and 8-12 Empire players. X-Wing? Just mirror matches all the time. IA appeared to be the only one that had variety, but YMMV.

It doesn't even appear that they want to even invest in Rouge One, the closest they expanded in IA at least was the Rebels series. No Death Troopers, no Jyn Erso, No Krennick, nothing. Just the original trilogy.

Clone Wars? Mandalorians, Seperatists, The Republic, Genosian hives, Night Sisters, they have so much they could do but they sit on their Storm troopers instead. At least KM tried CW when they had the license for a short time.

40k maybe becoming HH.2-Avengers-Assemble but they have a rabid, zealous fan-base keeping them alive that believe GW can do no wrong. FFG don't.

If they want to even try to even attempt to overtake 40k with legion then they must expand into other eras once they get the bulk of the Galactic Civil War done.

I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

gungo wrote:
People seem to forget this is like ffg 4th mini game version for Star Wars. The only one with relatively 40k strong sales was swing and even that game died down after it had its hey day. Which was only 2 quarters where it was the number one selling miniature game via retail sales and that was during the lull where 40k had only 1 new 40k release.

Sure a Star Wars game could but it won’t eapecially not right now with the huge amount of sales from 40k. I’d be surprised if xwing current outsells AoS, but we will find out in about a month when the new retail numbers come out.

I'm sure that 8th ed was a big boost to 40k sales, but Age of Sigmar sales haven't ever been all that great.


So that everyone is on the same page, ICv2 numbers (which measure sales through hobby channels in North America) have consistently reported that X-Wing has outsold Warhammer 40,000 since Fall of 2015. The most recent numbers they have are for Spring 2017, and they still show X-Wing on top. 8th edition's release in June may very well have put 40k back on top- we don't have those numbers yet.

Hordes and/or Warmachine are consistently in the top 5 (at least one or the other). Star Wars Armada has been a regular in the top 5, but has never outpaced 40k sales.

Age of Sigmar does not regularly make it into the top 5. I don't believe I've ever seen it pass up Warmachine, much less X-Wing.




It is telling that the many years when GW told us that their lagging sales were in line with market expectations, ICv2 reported growth in the gaming industry (tabletop miniatures games seemed much more level than board game sales and such). Overall, it seems like the Roundtree era will be characterized by a lack of the head in the sand strategy that has allowed 40k to slip.


And before we have the argument- yes, these numbers do not include sales funneled through GW's online store- but they will include online sales if the store also has a brick and mortar presence somewhere in North America. Also of note, GW is a big company, but they're actually not as large as Asmodee (the owners of Fantasy Flight) who primarily make a killing on board games.

 Ratius wrote:

Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days

Always thought WMH was competing more with WHFB than 40k?
40k is sci fi (of whatever sub genre you want to label - gothic/dystopian likely), WMH/WHFB is hi/low fantasy?

They're all competing with one another, really. Warmachine is all steam powered, but it the game features giant robots and wizards in power armor and troops with guns or power weapons (much like 40k). The more original the settings get, the more they are breaking out of the old dichotomy of Scifi and Fantasy.

ICv2 calls them all "non-collectible miniatures games" and I think that's a useful genre. I mean, if someone decides to quit playing 40k and get into another game, they probably aren't going with Heroclix, right?


But that's actually a better argument against X-Wing's top spot. The pre-painted nature of the game makes it inherently different from intense hobby games like 40k, and maybe aren't appealing to the same crowd (at least no more than the board games market is encroaching on 40k sales).


That makes me wonder what the top selling game is if you combine all of the charts. I would expect Magic sales to outpace 40k, and possibly some of the biggest board games (I think Catan is unreasonably popular).

 DarkBlack wrote:
I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

I find it kind of entertaining that people say FFG doesn't support their games as well as GW does. I find GW to be pretty awful at supporting existing games/factions. Every new faction means that an existing faction goes yet another month with no support. I'm not a fan of Warmahordes, but I at least know that if I pick a specific faction, I'll probably get something new several times a year. With GW, my chosen faction may not get anything new for years at a time. My perception as a Necrons player is that in any given year, Necrons will probably be totally unsupported. As an Imperial X-Wing player, I'm confident that I'll get something new multiple times per year for my faction. I'm expecting the same support for Legion. I'm expecting new releases for each faction multiple times per year.

What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

 Kriswall wrote:


What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Yes, this thought process does confuse me.

I mean once you have the stuff to play a game, you always have the stuff to play the game.

That which is not dead can eternal lie. And after Strange Aeons even death may die.

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/10/random-that-is-not-dead-which-can.html

 Easy E wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Yes, this thought process does confuse me.

I mean once you have the stuff to play a game, you always have the stuff to play the game.

That which is not dead can eternal lie. And after Strange Aeons even death may die.

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/10/random-that-is-not-dead-which-can.html

I call that "Confrontation" and "Chronopia"

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

I find it kind of entertaining that people say FFG doesn't support their games as well as GW does. I find GW to be pretty awful at supporting existing games/factions. Every new faction means that an existing faction goes yet another month with no support. I'm not a fan of Warmahordes, but I at least know that if I pick a specific faction, I'll probably get something new several times a year. With GW, my chosen faction may not get anything new for years at a time. My perception as a Necrons player is that in any given year, Necrons will probably be totally unsupported. As an Imperial X-Wing player, I'm confident that I'll get something new multiple times per year for my faction. I'm expecting the same support for Legion. I'm expecting new releases for each faction multiple times per year.

What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Horses for courses duder.

Me? I prefer GW's release schedule. Give me everything for my army in the space of a few weeks, and let me muddle through as I will.

PP's is equally valid, but not my preferred choice. I'm not a big fan of a constantly shifting meta. Simply put, I don't trust any company to not make the latest model for a faction a must have in the meta.

I find that at least with GW, what's good will remain good for a decent while.

FFG are probably my least favourite though, simply because of how they dish out their cards. When I first started X-Wing, I was massively enthused. I'm a Star Wars nut, a star fighter nut, and a gaming nut. And I picked up at least one of everything. But then, in my opinion, they started to extract the urine. The TIE Advanced, one of the Empire's most iconic ships, was absolutely awful. And they fixed that. If one coughed up £80 for the Imperial big ship. A big ship you might use once in a blue moon. The A-Wing was also bobbins - which was a shame as hands down that's my favourite Star Fighter ever. Unless you coughed up for the Rebel Aces pack, which included cards to fix that.

So whilst you're right to say they do offer ongoing releases for all factions, they do so in the most mercenary and money grubbing way I can think of. YMMV of course - my opinion is for me and me alone to agree with

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

I find it kind of entertaining that people say FFG doesn't support their games as well as GW does. I find GW to be pretty awful at supporting existing games/factions. Every new faction means that an existing faction goes yet another month with no support. I'm not a fan of Warmahordes, but I at least know that if I pick a specific faction, I'll probably get something new several times a year. With GW, my chosen faction may not get anything new for years at a time. My perception as a Necrons player is that in any given year, Necrons will probably be totally unsupported. As an Imperial X-Wing player, I'm confident that I'll get something new multiple times per year for my faction. I'm expecting the same support for Legion. I'm expecting new releases for each faction multiple times per year.

What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Horses for courses duder.

Me? I prefer GW's release schedule. Give me everything for my army in the space of a few weeks, and let me muddle through as I will.

PP's is equally valid, but not my preferred choice. I'm not a big fan of a constantly shifting meta. Simply put, I don't trust any company to not make the latest model for a faction a must have in the meta.

I find that at least with GW, what's good will remain good for a decent while.

FFG are probably my least favourite though, simply because of how they dish out their cards. When I first started X-Wing, I was massively enthused. I'm a Star Wars nut, a star fighter nut, and a gaming nut. And I picked up at least one of everything. But then, in my opinion, they started to extract the urine. The TIE Advanced, one of the Empire's most iconic ships, was absolutely awful. And they fixed that. If one coughed up £80 for the Imperial big ship. A big ship you might use once in a blue moon. The A-Wing was also bobbins - which was a shame as hands down that's my favourite Star Fighter ever. Unless you coughed up for the Rebel Aces pack, which included cards to fix that.

So whilst you're right to say they do offer ongoing releases for all factions, they do so in the most mercenary and money grubbing way I can think of. YMMV of course - my opinion is for me and me alone to agree with

Could be worse. They could always not fix things.

Yeah it just sucks to have to buy your fix when you have the maximum amount of a certain ship already. For example, buying Rebel Aces if you already had 6 A wings and 4 B wings would really suck, and I know a couple of players who had that happen. Or your fix comes in a different faction's ship, like autothrusters being only in starvipers for a while, or how way back push the limit only came with A-Wings.

If my guardsmen get a fix(or Nerf), I go out and buy a book for about $35, or it comes in a FAQ/Errata. I don't need to go out and buy 2-3 ork boy boxes or a "Guardsmen Aces" pack to get the cards I need to fix my guard army. I don't know if X-Wing has fixed that issue but it was absolutely a thing from launch to Wave VII when I played. You ended up having to buy ships you didn't care about at all to make the ones you liked playable. Again with a 40k comparison, this isn't much worse than having to buy new units because your old favorites suck, just a different kind of suck.

The biggest issue is cards really hold X-Wing back from a proper Version 2, which I feel it could really use. The game desperately needed a wider spread of dice, since the jump of just a single dice massively changes your power to attack or Dodge. Remember how FFG admitted they will never release a 1 attack dice ship again after they realized the HWK main gun was useless? Or how most ships end up with 3 attack dice because 2 is a bit wimpy and 4 base hits like a truck? You can fix a core mechanic like that pretty easy with 40k, by putting out a rulebook and however many codexes you need. For X-Wing you would need to reprint every single card and make them available somehow if you want to make any meaningful changes. Not to mention you invalidate your entire inventory. This isn't a big deal if you can do no wrong and have incredibly competent playtesters, but we know this isn't something FFG has since they are human like all of us. Soontir Fel, the jumpmaster and Phantom are three good examples I can come up with off the top off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more.

That's the issue with X-Wing style games, once they go on for long enough, it's quite possible they can't fix things. They can apply basic little patches here and there but they can never do core gameplay changes if it comes up. That's what people talk about when they mean longevity. X-Wing ten years from now will be the same core system it was when it started. Doesn't matter what problems it has, it will stay the same. We know this because the biggest shakeup FFG attempted, releasing an updated damage deck, was met with a rebellion, so it was made optional which defeated the point. Now people just choose which deck hurts them the least. With 40k you at least have hope (and a severe case of Sherlock Holmes syndrome) that a horribly worked ruleset like 7th can be reworked. I can see 40k, even with GW's pretty lackluster rules writing ability lasting another 30 years. I cant say the same for X-wing unless changes are made.

Which means Legion will never knock out 40k. Which means, going back to the point of this thread, that Star Wars will never take 40k's spot as the sci fi genre of choice for wargaming unless either a change in license holder is made or a new rules approach is adopted. There's not anything wrong with that, I always found "X-killers" (COD killers, WOW killers, Halo Killers) was a buzzword for marketing and if a game truly wanted to be great, it needed to forget the competition and do what worked for it. It will never be the best seller ever, but that's because to be the best seller you need to water down an experience to appeal to a wide playerbase. This is what 40k does, and we see the results of that on this forum all the time. As much as I dislike FFG's approach, it works for them and is different which let's them stand out. It just lacks long term life span, which to be fair it never had to begin with since it's a licensed game. I enjoyed my time with X-Wing and easily got my money's worth out of it and I'm cool with that. 20 years from now it'll be a game I look back on with fond memories as I have a few models on a shelf to look cool, just like my little Stormtroopers I have from that collectible miniatures game 10 years ago. But it definitely won't be around where I can get pickup games and go to tournaments like 40k has the potential to be.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Yeah it just sucks to have to buy your fix when you have the maximum amount of a certain ship already. For example, buying Rebel Aces if you already had 6 A wings and 4 B wings would really suck, and I know a couple of players who had that happen. Or your fix comes in a different faction's ship, like autothrusters being only in starvipers for a while, or how way back push the limit only came with A-Wings.

If my guardsmen get a fix(or Nerf), I go out and buy a book for about $35, or it comes in a FAQ/Errata. I don't need to go out and buy 2-3 ork boy boxes or a "Guardsmen Aces" pack to get the cards I need to fix my guard army. I don't know if X-Wing has fixed that issue but it was absolutely a thing from launch to Wave VII when I played. You ended up having to buy ships you didn't care about at all to make the ones you liked playable. Again with a 40k comparison, this isn't much worse than having to buy new units because your old favorites suck, just a different kind of suck.

The biggest issue is cards really hold X-Wing back from a proper Version 2, which I feel it could really use. The game desperately needed a wider spread of dice, since the jump of just a single dice massively changes your power to attack or Dodge. Remember how FFG admitted they will never release a 1 attack dice ship again after they realized the HWK main gun was useless? Or how most ships end up with 3 attack dice because 2 is a bit wimpy and 4 base hits like a truck? You can fix a core mechanic like that pretty easy with 40k, by putting out a rulebook and however many codexes you need. For X-Wing you would need to reprint every single card and make them available somehow if you want to make any meaningful changes. Not to mention you invalidate your entire inventory. This isn't a big deal if you can do no wrong and have incredibly competent playtesters, but we know this isn't something FFG has since they are human like all of us. Soontir Fel, the jumpmaster and Phantom are three good examples I can come up with off the top off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more.

That's the issue with X-Wing style games, once they go on for long enough, it's quite possible they can't fix things. They can apply basic little patches here and there but they can never do core gameplay changes if it comes up. That's what people talk about when they mean longevity. X-Wing ten years from now will be the same core system it was when it started. Doesn't matter what problems it has, it will stay the same. We know this because the biggest shakeup FFG attempted, releasing an updated damage deck, was met with a rebellion, so it was made optional which defeated the point. Now people just choose which deck hurts them the least. With 40k you at least have hope (and a severe case of Sherlock Holmes syndrome) that a horribly worked ruleset like 7th can be reworked. I can see 40k, even with GW's pretty lackluster rules writing ability lasting another 30 years. I cant say the same for X-wing unless changes are made.

Which means Legion will never knock out 40k. Which means, going back to the point of this thread, that Star Wars will never take 40k's spot as the sci fi genre of choice for wargaming unless either a change in license holder is made or a new rules approach is adopted. There's not anything wrong with that, I always found "X-killers" (COD killers, WOW killers, Halo Killers) was a buzzword for marketing and if a game truly wanted to be great, it needed to forget the competition and do what worked for it. It will never be the best seller ever, but that's because to be the best seller you need to water down an experience to appeal to a wide playerbase. This is what 40k does, and we see the results of that on this forum all the time. As much as I dislike FFG's approach, it works for them and is different which let's them stand out. It just lacks long term life span, which to be fair it never had to begin with since it's a licensed game. I enjoyed my time with X-Wing and easily got my money's worth out of it and I'm cool with that. 20 years from now it'll be a game I look back on with fond memories as I have a few models on a shelf to look cool, just like my little Stormtroopers I have from that collectible miniatures game 10 years ago. But it definitely won't be around where I can get pickup games and go to tournaments like 40k has the potential to be.

In all fairness, FFG does show a capacity to learn and improve that GW doesn't show. X-Wing absolutely has it's flaws. The dice are definitely one of those. There is a massive jump in power between having one versus two attack dice. Same for defense. Armada's subsequent release had three types of attack dice, allowing for more flexibilty. Legion effectively has nine (basic, surge to hit and surge to crit for each of three colors) different types, allowing for even more flexibility. Each new edition of 40k is largely the same game, with similar flaws.

Being part of a licensed IP for FFG, the various Star Wars games definitely could end at any time. BUT... so long as FFG is making good money for Disney, they'll probably last. This is much the same way that so long as 40k is making good money for GW, it'll last. If the Star Wars IP or 40k stop making money, they'll stop being made.

Legion definitely won't kill 40k, but it will take away yet another slice of the overall market from GW. I've been playing 40k for a long time and am excited about the Custodes being released... but I'm not buying them. I'm spending my money on Legion instead. There are plenty of people like me out there. There are also plenty of people who will stick to 40k over anything else.

I see a surprising amount of excitement for this game in my area and on the social media groups. Lots of people making terrain, planning what to get and paint, etc...

I dunno, it’s no going to kill off 40k by any means, but I think at least at first it’s going to be big. That is, if the miniatures are nice. Some of the pictures I’ve seen have me a little worried. The vehicles look top shelf, but some of the infantry look a little meh.

Um Xwing is no where near 40k sales again. That one quarter it won was a period where there was 3 waves of xwing minis and zero new 40k releases. Since then 40k revamped and scales skyrocketed. Furthermore the initial xwing honeymoon wore off and fatigue set in.’the same happened to PP. ffs I’ll be surprised if xwing beats sigmar this quarter.

Finally people tend to forget try already released a Star Wars mini game that this new Star Wars mini game just undercut. I love Star Wars like most but it doesn’t have the volume of minis to make a variable large scale game. This is someone with almost $1,000 worth of xwing models sitting in a closet.

Kriswall wrote:
In all fairness, FFG does show a capacity to learn and improve that GW doesn't show. X-Wing absolutely has it's flaws. The dice are definitely one of those. There is a massive jump in power between having one versus two attack dice. Same for defense. Armada's subsequent release had three types of attack dice, allowing for more flexibilty. Legion effectively has nine (basic, surge to hit and surge to crit for each of three colors) different types, allowing for even more flexibility. Each new edition of 40k is largely the same game, with similar flaws.

Except you've just proven my point. I'm well aware that FFG is aware of the game's flaws. Their constant erratas and FAQ's are proof of that. FFG does care about it's games and listens to it's playerbase. What I'm pointing out is that they are powerless to fix it. You say it yourself, they learned their lesson and made sure to have a higher variety of dice in Armada and Legion. But that's Armada and legion, it does nothing to fix X-Wing. This would be like saying the issues with a Jeep liberty are no big deal because they fixed it on the Jeep Cherokee. That's cool but it doesn't help the Liberty owner any. This is a similar situation. X-Wing launched with the system it has and it doesn't matter that FFG knows it's screwy and has tons of math and examples to prove it, they're stuck with it. Meanwhile GW got every bit of fan feedback and proof that 7th was a raging dumpster fire and they were able to burn it down and start from scratch. It sounds insane to hear, but with 8th GW is at least trying to make the game better. They've still got a long way to go and are still learning what the heck a balanced ruleset is, but this is far from the dark days of 6th and 7th edition. The important bit though is that they can actually make those changes

This is the problem FFG's card based systems have. They're easy to start and can have easy to purchase releases, but they lack the ability to change the system in meaningful ways after release. An X-Wing V2 using the lessons they learned could be amazing, and could probably fix many of the ships that are functionally worthless (*cough*X-Wings*cough*) but because they are committed to this idea, the player as is stuck with a flawed core system in desperate need of an update. Almost like how 40k is still showing issues of them insisting on keeping skirmish scale rules in a mass battle game. The difference is GW can fix those rules (and it already fixed several with the jump to 8th by dropping armor facings, simplifying unit interactions, getting rid of challenges, and dropping USR's for unit specific ones) not all of these changes are popular, but they actually show GW is learning and trying to fix things. The problem GW has is that the game was so hilariously broken in 7th that even if they had a perfect team it would take years to fix it. Fantasy Flight cannot make these changes without lengthy and often clunky workarounds. Think about all the shenanigans it takes to make ordnance work, or the absolutely insane buff it took to make Kihraxes flyable, or the multitude of nerfs the phantom and jumpmaster needed. Think about all the other Tie Advances, A-Wings, Y-Wings, Slave I's, E-Wings, Tie Defenders, Scyks, etc. that were functionally terrible on arrival. Think about how many new players you talk to where you say "if you want to fly X, you need to buy Y and Z for upgrades to fix it". These are signs of a game that needs a V2. But with every passing release it gets less likely. Every blister is that many more cards and cardboard they need to reprint, making the task more Herculean and painful. This is what will keep any of these games FFG makes from killing 40k. They will claim marketshare for a bit, but eventually their very success will be what kills them.

In addition, the lack of material to draw from like 40k has means Star Wars is limited in what it can do. Once the cash cow releases are gone, aka your X-Wings, your Storm Troopers, etc. you're essentially spent. You can't just release an entirely new faction to the degree 40k can. FFG just doesn't have that kind of control over the star wars license. They can get the odd ship ok'd or made like the raider Corvette thing for empire, but they can't just say tomorrow "hey check out this new race for our game" unless it's getting made in a movie or something. Meanwhile GW can go nuts, pick some random thing that got two paragraphs in some book from ten years ago and say "screw it, they're an army now".

I do find it strange that the 40k lovers can claim their game can be 'reset' for rules but x-wing can't.

When GW do their regular reset, if you owned 3 armies, it would cost you a rulebook and 3 codices minimum. Probably about 125 ukp. All your old books are now outdated and no use. All you are really keeping over is the plastic figures.

Why couldn't FFG do the same to x-wing? You keep the plastic figures, all they need to do is reproduce a card set and the cardboard bases. I bet it would be way less than 125 for every model they've ever made. I mean, what's a MtG deck of 60 cards go for, 10 quid?

FFG absolutely could provide updates and fixes inexpensively if they wanted to. Look at Wyrd who release the cards separately from the minis periodically so that you can get the new rules without re-buying models.

FFG seem not to want to do that though.

Changing the card bases or dials is much harder though. Cardstock like that is really expensive, much more so than you'd think.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I do find it strange that the 40k lovers can claim their game can be 'reset' for rules but x-wing can't.

When GW do their regular reset, if you owned 3 armies, it would cost you a rulebook and 3 codices minimum. Probably about 125 ukp. All your old books are now outdated and no use. All you are really keeping over is the plastic figures.

Why couldn't FFG do the same to x-wing? You keep the plastic figures, all they need to do is reproduce a card set and the cardboard bases. I bet it would be way less than 125 for every model they've ever made. I mean, what's a MtG deck of 60 cards go for, 10 quid?

Second editions can be a hard pill to swallow. Of the ones I've seen over the years, the ones that survive keep a high level of compatibility with the old material (40K, D&D, etc.)

Most likely, an edition change tends to cause only the most enthusiastic - or newcomers to survive the change.

The best example I can think of for what FFG would face is the fate of the Mechwarrior Clix game. It was pretty popular, up until 2.0 came out. The old mechs weren't invalidated (initially), but the new mechs were so much better - had so many more options - that the entire preceding catalog of mechs weren't worth using. Some of the older sets eventually were phased out from tournaments. Apparently, a lot of the players were like me - with fairly extensive collections that had cost several hundred dollars, now unusable. Within two releases, the Mechwarrior community was dead - maybe some six months had passed.

That is the sort of fate that FFG fears. I don't blame them; how do you revise the game in a way that manages to not make your customers depart en masse?

I've read through the thread but I can't see this information if anyone knows it at this point, but what size of battles is this game based around?

Is it closer to Necromunda or 40k in scale?

Looking at the UK prices it appears this will be in the price range of 40k, so if it's the same scale it won't get be a cheaper alternative. However looking at the US prices it certainly looks like it'll be cheaper there.

There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

It looks like the same sort of level as 2nd edition 40k; a character, a couple of squads, a vehicle or two. The preview articles for the AT-ST and airspeeder say that there's a fixed game points value (I don't know if this is just the "recommended" level like in X-Wing and Armada, of if it's literally the only size allowed) and a fixed limit of two heavy units. IIRC, a single AT-ST will be a quarter of your points allowance.

More than Necromunda - that's sort of what Imperial Assault is for - but you won't be fielding an AT-AT escorted by a squadron of AT-STs, either. You might be able to field a platoon of Stormtroopers (about 30 troops, IIRC, with a couple of crew-served heavy weapons).

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

This is the problem FFG's card based systems have. They're easy to start and can have easy to purchase releases, but they lack the ability to change the system in meaningful ways after release. An X-Wing V2 using the lessons they learned could be amazing, and could probably fix many of the ships that are functionally worthless (*cough*X-Wings*cough*) but because they are committed to this idea, the player as is stuck with a flawed core system in desperate need of an update.

I don't know. The 'card based' system can be tweaked and fixed and is, in fact, fully compatible with a living, and constantly updated system. Privateer press for example have done this. And have done it since the dawn of the previous edition with the 'mk2 update' card deck. Now, they have evolved this model to the point that the cards that define the model/unit profiles are integrated into their 'living game' system, or cid by having an online database with the most recent versions of that card available for download. It's no longer the case that once they're printed, you're stuck with them.Their war room app is also automatically updated with any card updates.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

In addition, the lack of material to draw from like 40k has means Star Wars is limited in what it can do. Once the cash cow releases are gone, aka your X-Wings, your Storm Troopers, etc. you're essentially spent. You can't just release an entirely new faction to the degree 40k can. FFG just doesn't have that kind of control over the star wars license. They can get the odd ship ok'd or made like the raider Corvette thing for empire, but they can't just say tomorrow "hey check out this new race for our game" unless it's getting made in a movie or something. Meanwhile GW can go nuts, pick some random thing that got two paragraphs in some book from ten years ago and say "screw it, they're an army now".

To be fair, ge just releases a new version of space marine, with new bling. Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

Deadnight wrote:
Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

True. GW offers so much. Blue marines, green marines, silver marines, grey marines, red marines, etc etc.

As 40k stands it is really just Imperium vs Aliens vs Chaos. Just a few disguised flavours to make it look more.

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

That rubbish is like claiming Apple dominates the computer market because there’s no Microsoft stores.

 Stormonu wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

That rubbish is like claiming Apple dominates the computer market because there’s no Microsoft stores.

Actually Microsoft Stores are a thing We have several in the California Bay Area.

There is the valid question of the respective size of the fan bases. Fans are always the best 'boots on the ground'

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

True. GW offers so much. Blue marines, green marines, silver marines, grey marines, red marines, etc etc.

As 40k stands it is really just Imperium vs Aliens vs Chaos. Just a few disguised flavours to make it look more.

Even lumping ALL marines (even spiky ones) and all Eldar in together you're looking at:

-Orks
-Necrons
-Tyranids (hell I'll lump GSC in with them)
-Tau
-Marines
-Daemons
-Knights
-Admech
-Imperial Guard
-Eldar

It's a bit disingenuous to say it's 3 factions with flavor. When any one "Alien" faction has as many options as any starwars faction. And that's generally just codex not counting Forge World. That's like saying starwars is really one faction (the galaxy) with a couple of disguised flavors. Ya know, like the stuff that makes them unique factions...

Personally with the resurgence of 8th I don't think Legion can supplant it. It's similar to Runewars. If they'd hit at the right time they'd have grabbed large chunks of the market but they didn't. Star Wars will do better due to name brand and science fiction than Runewars but it's going to be a similar situation I think. Which is decent sales numbers but nothing that'll actually compete with 40k.

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

that can be a double edged sword though, GW's presence in my neck of the woods is anemic at best and they face outright hostility from mosts flgs who wont even carry their product, while FFG is supported very well in all of them. granted this is one place, but we have 1 gw, total, within 100 miles and when looking at their store finder, there is inaccurate information in there as well, like stores that have been closed for years and others (like my current flgs) that does not and never has carried GW products.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Me? I prefer GW's release schedule. Give me everything for my army in the space of a few weeks, and let me muddle through as I will.

Not so cool if you play Sisters. Or Dark Eldar at some point. Or Bretonnians. Or so many other examples…

Deadnight wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

This is the problem FFG's card based systems have. They're easy to start and can have easy to purchase releases, but they lack the ability to change the system in meaningful ways after release. An X-Wing V2 using the lessons they learned could be amazing, and could probably fix many of the ships that are functionally worthless (*cough*X-Wings*cough*) but because they are committed to this idea, the player as is stuck with a flawed core system in desperate need of an update.

I don't know. The 'card based' system can be tweaked and fixed and is, in fact, fully compatible with a living, and constantly updated system. Privateer press for example have done this. And have done it since the dawn of the previous edition with the 'mk2 update' card deck. Now, they have evolved this model to the point that the cards that define the model/unit profiles are integrated into their 'living game' system, or cid by having an online database with the most recent versions of that card available for download. It's no longer the case that once they're printed, you're stuck with them.Their war room app is also automatically updated with any card updates.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

In addition, the lack of material to draw from like 40k has means Star Wars is limited in what it can do. Once the cash cow releases are gone, aka your X-Wings, your Storm Troopers, etc. you're essentially spent. You can't just release an entirely new faction to the degree 40k can. FFG just doesn't have that kind of control over the star wars license. They can get the odd ship ok'd or made like the raider Corvette thing for empire, but they can't just say tomorrow "hey check out this new race for our game" unless it's getting made in a movie or something. Meanwhile GW can go nuts, pick some random thing that got two paragraphs in some book from ten years ago and say "screw it, they're an army now".

To be fair, ge just releases a new version of space marine, with new bling. Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

So how would you like to send out an email to everyone FLGS and distributor in the world saying "hey, you know every X-Wing box and blister in your store? All of their cards are outdated now."

Retailers would be storming Minneapolis with pitchforks and torches

And it needs the reboot, because the card patches only do so much. How many fixes have been released for X-Wings so far? I stopped caring after integrated astromechs. These title and upgrade shenanigans only help so much, it still doesn't ultimately address that the dice are too limited, or that ordnance sucks without ignoring half it's original rules. And at the end of the day, if the X-Wing's name doesn't say "Biggs", it's usually still considered trash outside of fringe situations with Wes and Wedge. That ship has been in the game for years and STILL isn't fixed. That proves my argument more than anything else.

And you really can't fix some of that without rebooting the rules. But you can't just slap together a V2 and call it a day like you can 8th edition where you make a new rulebook and some codexes. Unlike 40k, where for the most part rules are not packaged with models, FFG packs every rule for a unit in it's blister. So to update to a V2, FFG has two options

1. "Hard reboot": this is where you would burn everything down. Every ship card, every upgrade, every ship stat (which means all the cardboard inserts too) and core mechanics are updated. You now need to contend with over 10 waves worth of X-Wing ships and upgrades, and figure out a way to release hundreds of cards and cardboard base inserts, without costing more than maybe $40 at most or fanbase will rebel. You now also have to explain to every retailer that their product is essentially rotated out, as 90% of each blister is worthless chaff now. You also have to deal with the decision of do you release full playsets for every card/cardboard base (up to 8 copies each) or do you only put in 2-3 of each, so players need multiple "update packs". You also kill all those cool tournament prize exclusive cards over night. You also now need to decide if you can sell your ships at the same price as before even though most of the pack is worthless (angering playerbase) or do you drop the price to reflect the price that only the model and flight dial are useful now (angering retailers)

2. "Soft reboot" FFG tries to reboot the core rules without changing stats on cards. Almost impossible to do in all but the most basic changes. You don't infuriate the fanbase as much but end up with a half-hearted attempt that does little to fix the game. Odds of it ending up like the damage deck update are high.

The biggest point to my argument though, was the reaction to the force awakens starter. Normally gamers are excited for a new edition. Yet many X-Wing players were furious they had to buy it to get the new damage deck for tournaments (which was greatly improved and fixed the original's flaws) Then FFG caved to pressure and made it optional. If the community got that upset over a damage deck, being told they'd need to update to V2 would kill the game. This isn't 40k, where GW can change the game up overnight. A box of guardsmen is a box of guardsmen, they can jump to 8th and all retailers need to do is rotate codexes (that GW will credit them for) and the odd template or pack of cards. That box of Cadians from 4th edition still works in 8th and nothing neess to be changed fromm stocking level. A serious V2 would make it where all "V1" ships are good for is the ship and maybe the movement dials.

They cannot do it. That's simply the long and short of it. I know this sounds like I'm being paid by GW or something but if you know me you know I chew out GW all the time. In this one instance, this specific circumstance, GW has FFG beat. FFG cannot update in a serious way to learn from it's mistakes because its game literally would not survive the jump. 40k on the other hand can reboot and revitalize the game almost overnight. The card system only works if you 100% nail a system from the start and future proof everything. How on Earth can any human being future proof a game that will be played by hundreds of thousands of people with over 10 waves in the next 5 years (many of which aren't even a glimmer in his eye yet) and countless additions and exceptions to the rules? The system was showing strain even back in Wave II as people realized issues with the X-Wing and ordnance. Yet we still have those issues. Yes, they sell new packs to fix this, but this doesn't change the fact that a Y-Wing is useless in the pack it comes in, it needs upgrades from something like 3 other packs, some not even in it's faction, to make it a useable ship. That is not a system working, that is a mess that turns off new players and ramps up cost of entry significantly. This will eventually kill the game under it's own weight if FFG isn't careful, because they can't stop. They HAVE to keep releasing things, and they have to keep coming up with weird exceptions to rules and upgrades to justify it. Which only serve to stress the limits of the system and invalidate old ships. It is going to crush itself under it's own weight, and games like Armada and Legion risk a similar fate.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

So how would you like to send out an email to everyone FLGS and distributor in the world saying "hey, you know every X-Wing box and blister in your store? All of their cards are outdated now."

Retailers would be storming Minneapolis with pitchforks and torches

Genuinely - *shrug*. I doubt it. Again, privateer press and gw did/do this for all their new editions. No reason ffg can't do this either. And the player base lived through it. Some players got angry, some retailers got angry. But once that subsided they just returned the obselete stuff, and got on with it and ordered the new product for their customers. Maybe you don't play these games, so didn't experience it, but this model is entirely possible. Ffg is no different to pp - both deal entirely with third party retailers. If anything, privateer press was even more beholden to the card use aspect of the game than ffg and I feel if they can update their game/card/business model, then so can ffg.

In PP's case, they also went on a PR offensive abut the new edition, pushing all the positive aspects of it, as well as enhancing the aspect she of their marketing thst supported this - e.g. The new war room 2 army building app.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And it needs the reboot, because the card patches only do so much. How many fixes have been released for X-Wings so far? I stopped caring after integrated astromechs. These title and upgrade shenanigans only help so much, it still doesn't ultimately address that the dice are too limited, or that ordnance sucks without ignoring half it's original rules. And at the end of the day, if the X-Wing's name doesn't say "Biggs", it's usually still considered trash outside of fringe situations with Wes and Wedge. That ship has been in the game for years and STILL isn't fixed. That proves my argument more than anything else.

I've only played x-wing casually. Certainly not to the level where I understand all the nuances of the game, or can 'game' it, and at the end of the he day, I'm not all that bothered by it (not a Star Wars fan, nor a dog fighting fan) but I'll accept here that a reboot isn't a bad idea - I have no reason to doubt you.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And you really can't fix some of that without rebooting the rules. But you can't just slap together a V2 and call it a day like you can 8th edition where you make a new rulebook and some codexes. Unlike 40k, where for the most part rules are not packaged with models, FFG packs every rule for a unit in it's blister. So to update to a V2, FFG has two options

See above. If privateer press can update their warmachine and hordes games and their attendant cards twice (mk3 now), and 'call it's a day', then so can ffg.

And yes, privateer press also made a new rule book and updated the cards/rules for,their games. Theirs is a model where the rules are also packaged with the models as well, just like ffg. And has been since mk1 - about 2001. How did they deal with it? Simple. Official announcement about the new edition, and that the mk2 cards were obselete. They would be updating them with mk3 cards which could be purchased as a 'faction deck' and would eventually be freely downloadable from their website (and this being the most up to date version of said cards). Also, their app - warroom would automatically update with any card updates so there really was no reason to worry.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

1. "Hard reboot": this is where you would burn everything down. Every ship card, every upgrade, every ship stat (which means all the cardboard inserts too) and core mechanics are updated. You now need to contend with over 10 waves worth of X-Wing ships and upgrades, and figure out a way to release hundreds of cards and cardboard base inserts, without costing more than maybe $40 at most or fanbase will rebel. You now also have to explain to every retailer that their product is essentially rotated out, as 90% of each blister is worthless chaff now. You also have to deal with the decision of do you release full playsets for every card/cardboard base (up to 8 copies each) or do you only put in 2-3 of each, so players need multiple "update packs". You also kill all those cool tournament prize exclusive cards over night. You also now need to decide if you can sell your ships at the same price as before even though most of the pack is worthless (angering playerbase) or do you drop the price to reflect the price that only the model and flight dial are useful now (angering retailers)

You need to look beyond gw and ffg. Refer to privateer press and their mk3 updates for warmachine and hordes. They managed all of this. And even evolved how they are going To continually update their rules as part of the changes to their game - refer to CID (community integrated development). It's definitely doable.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

2. "Soft reboot" FFG tries to reboot the core rules without changing stats on cards. Almost impossible to do in all but the most basic changes. You don't infuriate the fanbase as much but end up with a half-hearted attempt that does little to fix the game. Odds of it ending up like the damage deck update are high.

Again, no reason this couldn't be managed if they,chose to.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The biggest point to my argument though, was the reaction to the force awakens starter. Normally gamers are excited for a new edition. Yet many X-Wing players were furious they had to buy it to get the new damage deck for tournaments (which was greatly improved and fixed the original's flaws) Then FFG caved to pressure and made it optional. If the community got that upset over a damage deck, being told they'd need to update to V2 would kill the game. This isn't 40k, where GW can change the game up overnight. A box of guardsmen is a box of guardsmen, they can jump to 8th and all retailers need to do is rotate codexes (that GW will credit them for) and the odd template or pack of cards. That box of Cadians from 4th edition still works in 8th and nothing neess to be changed fromm stocking level. A serious V2 would make it where all "V1" ships are good for is the ship and maybe the movement dials.

I disagree.

And I have no doubt plenty people were excited about force awakens. I'm sure plenty were annoyed about it. No different to what gw or pp have. Ffg deal with the exact same community dynamics as gw. Essentially, people fear change. Plenty people gripe and moans and complain about a new codex/edition and how x and y and z will be obselete etc and how they'll need to buy more to stay relevant in the new edition. I can think of plenty examples of privateer press games for example where a new caster or release (for example, colossal), force a huge change on the meta and people were annoyed they had to buy new units/counters and adapt to a new meta. Plenty players of gw games have to deal with the same thing with new codices that forced a change on the game. Gamers are gamers.
It's just gw don't care about that and barrel on with their changes. I don't necessarily blame them. Because in a way, they're right. A lot of gamers crave that stamp of 'officialdom'. If a company's says 'these are the new rules', sooner or later, the community follows. If gw can release a new version of a game, so can ffg. If a box of guardsmen is a box of guardsmen, then an x-wing is still an x-wing by exactly the same argument. If retailers have to chuck/return obselete codices for 40k thanks to a new edition and do this, then there is no reason they can't/won't do the same for other big selling games. Again, they did this for warmachine/hordes. And pp had loads of books (like the forces of war 'kind-of-codex' books) and cards from mk2 that were obselete by the switch to mk3, and dealt with it. I fail to see why they wouldn't do the same for x-wing.

If ffg were serious about a hard reboot, they would need to understand that they need to bring as much of the old stuff over so it keeps its value. That's a challenge, but again, all part of the game, and it's not a challenge that is uniquely to them - again, refer to privateer press.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

They cannot do it. That's simply the long and short of it. I know this sounds like I'm being paid by GW or something but if you know me you know I chew out GW all the time. In this one instance, this specific circumstance, GW has FFG beat. FFG cannot update in a serious way to learn from it's mistakes because its game literally would not survive the jump. 40k on the other hand can reboot and revitalize the game almost overnight. The card system only works if you 100% nail a system from the start and future proof everything. How on Earth can any human being future proof a game that will be played by hundreds of thousands of people with over 10 waves in the next 5 years (many of which aren't even a glimmer in his eye yet) and countless additions and exceptions to the rules?

It's not that I think you are being paid by gw, but I do think you are rather oblivious to how other successful companies (such as Privateer Press) operate in this industry and how they have updated their games and have survived and thrived, often by doing precisely the things you claim ffg can't do. With respect, all your comments refer to gw, and I'm sorry, but gw are not the only horse in town, nor is theirs the only, or the proper way of doing things. 'how gw does it' is far from the be-all-and-end-all.

The long and the short of it is that I feel you are quite wrong in your blanket assertion that 'they cannot do it'.

Ffg can update in a serious way. Again, refer to pp. they have done everything you claim ffg can't. Ffg have more resources behind them, I find it hard to believe they can't take a leaf out of Matt wilsons book.
Ffg can update in a serious way and learn from its mistakes. It can be a 'living rulebook'. Again, refer to privateer press and CID and their bi-annual errata.
The card system can work. Companies can evolve their systems from x to y. Again, look at privateer press, who went from a 'card packaged in the box' model (because it was 2001...h to one where it is still card based and where the cards are regularly updated as required and where said updated cards cards are easily (and freely) available - either through the pp website downloads or via an app (because it's 2018...).

Regarding the question of How can you futureproof a game that will be played by load screen of people over 5 years with loads of waves? Well, (broken record) privateer press managed it. (A) implements systems To receive player feedback and (b) implement systems to integrate feedback into the game and (c) present updates rules/errata in a timely manner to 'fix' the game in an ongoing manner. Again, CID and regular errata. And there's no reason ffg can't release a new campaign pack with an announcement that this is how they're going to play this from now on. There is no reason to assume that just because rules are released that they must be monolithic never-changing things. The current gaming climate is one that is receptive to games that are continually tweaked with the aim of balance.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The system was showing strain even back in Wave II as people realized issues with the X-Wing and ordnance. Yet we still have those issues. Yes, they sell new packs to fix this, but this doesn't change the fact that a Y-Wing is useless in the pack it comes in, it needs upgrades from something like 3 other packs, some not even in it's faction, to make it a useable ship. That is not a system working, that is a mess that turns off new players and ramps up cost of entry significantly. This will eventually kill the game under it's own weight if FFG isn't careful, because they can't stop. They HAVE to keep releasing things, and they have to keep coming up with weird exceptions to rules and upgrades to justify it. Which only serve to stress the limits of the system and invalidate old ships. It is going to crush itself under it's own weight, and games like Armada and Legion risk a similar fate.

It's the nature of the game sadly. Privateer press have had some of the same issues - unit x needing unit y to synergies well and be 'good', some units needing a particular caster etc etc. Wargames are generally reliant upon selling the 'new wave/codex etc' to stay relevant. Ffg are no different to gw or privateer press. It may Be messy at times, but I also see this as a somewhat pragmatic mechanism for the company to (a) fill the release schedule with new stuff that (by) also solves problematic issues. At the end of the day, they have to sell things, and ttg's are a limited medium - there is only so far you can push any of them before they start to get overheated. I think for most companies, it's down To trying to manage and balance these issues which often compete (i.e. Keep old stuff relevant, whilst simultaneously releasing new stuff that appeals (because new stuff sells more, by all accounts), perform regular 'maintenance' and fix bugs, and trying to balance that maintenance using both errata and 'new stuff' to fix issues as leaning on one at the expense of the other Is problematic) as best as they can.

Fans of 40k - you don't need to worry about Legion taking 40k's spot.

But, a bit of healthy competition can only be a good thing. It will stop your game turning into the bag of gak that it was 7-8 years ago when GW was completely unchallenged in its dominance, and had nothing better to do than go after fan-sites, raise prices yearly and re-release rule and miniature changes that were pretty much exactly the same as the previous version with a 0.1 change.

Let FFG and others worry GW a little bit, it will be better for everyone.

 The Warp Forge wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It doesn't help there's still a fair few feeling rather hit by the Imperial Assault to Legions change.

It is interesting to see what will happen there.

Honestly looking at Legion now? I really don't see it overthrowing 40k for one simple reason.

FFG do not expand.

It doesn't even appear that they want to even invest in Rouge One, the closest they expanded in IA at least was the Rebels series. No Death Troopers, no Jyn Erso, No Krennick, nothing. Just the original trilogy.

Clone Wars? Mandalorians, Seperatists, The Republic, Genosian hives, Night Sisters, they have so much they could do but they sit on their Storm troopers instead. At least KM tried CW when they had the license for a short time.

40k maybe becoming HH.2-Avengers-Assemble but they have a rabid, zealous fan-base keeping them alive that believe GW can do no wrong. FFG don't.

If they want to even try to even attempt to overtake 40k with legion then they must expand into other eras once they get the bulk of the Galactic Civil War done.

Weirdly they have been expanding in the Card Game. Rogue One, Clone Wars have shown up in there alongside Rebels. They've even got a Jar Jar Destiny character card for oddballs sake.



Jar Jar, Rogue One, and Clone Wars characters.. It's very strange that they avoid such for their model based games however.

X-Wing is rather different to Warmachine, though. Warmachine has one card per unit that needs replaced with an edition change. Perhaps you'll need two or three for Warjacks or other units that require marking individual card. X-Wing, by contrast requires one card, dial and base insert per model - fly four X-Wings and you need four cards, four dials and four inserts. Then there's the upgrade cards. A set of replacement cards is gong to be the size of two house bricks, not a pack of fags like the WM decks. No-one would pay for that, and I doubt FFG could give them away free. Even PP got complaints from people who fielded more of a given unit than they got I the deck.

I suppose they could amend the tournament rules to only require a player has at least one copy of any given card, rather than as many copies as they have in play, but what about all the cardstock?

If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

 Marmatag wrote:
If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

I would jump in a heart beat in a prepainted (Or even not prepainted, just normal plastic game) Warcraft game, be it skirmish or actual battles like Kings of Wars. And if that means that they would expand the military component of all the races, even better.

 Marmatag wrote:
If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

Didn’t Blizzard already try that? I know there was at least some sort of Warcraft CCG floating around at one time - before Hearthstone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, yes - found it. Apparently, it’s been out for 9 years, so no, it’s not killed 40K.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/34496/world-warcraft-miniatures-game

I don't think a game built on an external IP has the kind of staying power 40k has. Star Wars may be popular, Starcraft may be popular, but the core of these franchises are films and computer games, respectively. A miniatures game based on one of them is just a spin-off, and is hamstrung by the media on which it's built. The original medium still dictates what can be done with such a game.

And you have the issue of renegotiation upon success. If star wars miniature game sales eclipsed GW in size world wide, then Disney is going to negotiate hard for a larger piece of the pie. So then if the manufacturer wants to maintain their operating margins, they either have to jack up prices or reduce quality to cut spending.

And there's always a risk of a third party putting in a bid on the license and scooping it all away from you.

 Marmatag wrote:
If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

How much of the World of Warcraft Miniatures game did you invest in? I seem to recall it dying a pretty ignominious death

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

How much of the World of Warcraft Miniatures game did you invest in? I seem to recall it dying a pretty ignominious death

I have a pretty good set of it. Mechanically its really pretty good, but its more of a board game really.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I do find it strange that the 40k lovers can claim their game can be 'reset' for rules but x-wing can't.

When GW do their regular reset, if you owned 3 armies, it would cost you a rulebook and 3 codices minimum. Probably about 125 ukp. All your old books are now outdated and no use. All you are really keeping over is the plastic figures.

Why couldn't FFG do the same to x-wing? You keep the plastic figures, all they need to do is reproduce a card set and the cardboard bases. I bet it would be way less than 125 for every model they've ever made. I mean, what's a MtG deck of 60 cards go for, 10 quid?

Yeah. FFG could do that. But that would be utterly against how they have historically structured their games.

Ideally they would break out of their mold and start doing business like an actual miniature game company instead of treating all their products like glorified board games.

 Stormonu wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

That rubbish is like claiming Apple dominates the computer market because there’s no Microsoft stores.

It's apples and oranges (pun intended). If we needed an Apple store, somewhere that stocks Apple products, or an Apple outlet of sorts at home to use Apple products, it'd be a completely different game.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

that can be a double edged sword though, GW's presence in my neck of the woods is anemic at best and they face outright hostility from mosts flgs who wont even carry their product, while FFG is supported very well in all of them. granted this is one place, but we have 1 gw, total, within 100 miles and when looking at their store finder, there is inaccurate information in there as well, like stores that have been closed for years and others (like my current flgs) that does not and never has carried GW products.

Oh, I agree. It's the same in Brazil (a nation of 200 million), with LFGSs outright refusing to stock GW because of their previous policies. I don't play at my local GW either, but I can still appreciate that most young players go there, which results in them being much more likely to play GW games than anything else. However, it serves to recruit a lot of players to GW games and immerse them in the lore rather than any other game. GW dominates the market and is drawing on that power.

 Cream Tea wrote:
The original medium still dictates what can be done with such a game.

Yes. Miniatures wargames generally set up the setting so that any faction has a half-decent excuse to fight any other (or themselves) and be in a perpetual stalemate (whether that be by being set in time like 40k was, or by an increasingly improbable plot like Warmachine ). Settings based on books or movies are there to tell a story with a beginning and end, and there might not be much room to look outside that story. With Star Wars, for example, FFG are already crowbarring in a third faction into the gaps between the Empire and Rebellion.

Not that its an usual thing. A Scum faction first showed up in the video game RTS Empires at War with the Zann Consortium being the stand in for a scum faction. There's also Galactic Battlegrounds which decided Gungans and Wookies needed factions too.

But if they really wanted to they could go with Galactic Republic and CIS/Seperatists.

I have significant doubts that this Star Wars game will do anything to 40k. Or even any other tabletop wargame.

They're gonna have to put a little bit more into it other than "Luke and the Rebels fighting Vader and Stormtroopers". I fully anticipate any 'expansions' to involve the New Chick with No Personality and Angry Mole-face Manchild in Black. We might get lucky enough to get Mannequin Skywalker and Clone Troopers with some Droids and other Droids.

A few ground units, but nothing but primarily infantry. We might get, what- an AT-ST?

This game's miniatures don't look so great, either.

I'm not sinking a dime into this. If they add some fun factions like Mandalorians, Black Sun, Sith Empire, Old Republic, etc.... then maybe. But even then, this will be the game where I put down unpainted models I pull out of a shoebox unless they improve the quality and add some more unit flavor.

They've already showed off the AT-ST.. As for the other non-infantry there's the Airspeeder (from Hoth), the Speeder Bikes, the Pilfered AT-RT's from clone wars.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
They've already showed off the AT-ST.. As for the other non-infantry there's the Airspeeder (from Hoth), the Speeder Bikes, the Pilfered AT-RT's from clone wars.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm expecting too much. I wouldn't mind a few other factions from other timelines. I'm pretty much 'ho-hum' about the whole New Hope-Current Dumpster Fire settings in the movies. I'm a much bigger fan of Old Republic or even Clone Wars era. The Rebels vs. Empire thing might be the 'safe' bet, but even this looks generic.

But then again, this is the franchise that flushed its own Expanded Universe (which IMHO was about 50% garbage) when they made the new moves (IMHO 100% garbage). So I can't get my hopes up too high.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

That rubbish is like claiming Apple dominates the computer market because there’s no Microsoft stores.

It's apples and oranges (pun intended). If we needed an Apple store, somewhere that stocks Apple products, or an Apple outlet of sorts at home to use Apple products, it'd be a completely different game.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

that can be a double edged sword though, GW's presence in my neck of the woods is anemic at best and they face outright hostility from mosts flgs who wont even carry their product, while FFG is supported very well in all of them. granted this is one place, but we have 1 gw, total, within 100 miles and when looking at their store finder, there is inaccurate information in there as well, like stores that have been closed for years and others (like my current flgs) that does not and never has carried GW products.

Oh, I agree. It's the same in Brazil (a nation of 200 million), with LFGSs outright refusing to stock GW because of their previous policies. I don't play at my local GW either, but I can still appreciate that most young players go there, which results in them being much more likely to play GW games than anything else. However, it serves to recruit a lot of players to GW games and immerse them in the lore rather than any other game. GW dominates the market and is drawing on that power.

I have not noticed them dominating the market here (I will say when I lived in England, yeah they were the big IT thing) especially when their one store is in a part of the city you just dont go after dark. Magic the Gathering is the dominant force in all the FLGS where I live and its unchallenged, then YU-Gi-oh? then X-wing, warmahordes, etc....The kids want their cards around here and minis are kinda third fiddle to cards and rpgs.

The hobby game market has been exploding, but the leader has been Board Games.

To be perfectly honest, I think a lot of people's Warhammer budgets have been relegated to Kickstarter instead.

Let's face it- there are a lot of really cool board games coming out that have really nice minis as well. And while you won't be expanding your board games as often as your 40k army, you can just get the next cool board game instead.