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People seem to forget this is like ffg 4th mini game version for Star Wars. The only one with relatively 40k strong sales was swing and even that game died down after it had its hey day. Which was only 2 quarters where it was the number one selling miniature game via retail sales and that was during the lull where 40k had only 1 new 40k release.

Sure a Star Wars game could but it won’t eapecially not right now with the huge amount of sales from 40k. I’d be surprised if xwing current outsells AoS, but we will find out in about a month when the new retail numbers come out.

iron_within88 wrote:

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

iron_within88 wrote:
That's.....alot of money for low budget models that are closer to those army men packets you buy from supermarkets for a few $ rather than games workshop quality.

Comparison

7 Stormtroopers in unit expansion is $24.95 USD
10 Dreadspears (dark elves) is $35 USD and vastly superior in quality.

Ah... I guess the Stormtroopers have some wide open flat areas that aren't quite up to GW lover standards... skulls, spikes or runes on every available surface.

If a model looks exactly like the film version it is copying, why is it considered a poor model?

if i ever feel like watching star wars again ill make sure to keep an eye out for those obvious mold lines on the storm troopers armour they just painted over.

There may be some, it depends if the prop makers were as lazy a modellers as you apparently are if you're criticising models for something that they practically all have, whether plastic resin or metal.

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

Interesting, but I would never have thought that Battletech once overtook 40k in popularity, so I guess this must have been from when I was a wee lad. However 40k was what introduced me to wargaming, as I suspect many others. Maybe not the boardgame for me, but at least the universe was worth talking about and a great introduction to armies and factions, etc.

I had no idea Battletech existed until I spotted it from a VLOG, so at least here in NZ 40k is "king".

 SirStudent wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

Interesting, but I would never have thought that Battletech once overtook 40k in popularity, so I guess this must have been from when I was a wee lad. However 40k was what introduced me to wargaming, as I suspect many others. Maybe not the boardgame for me, but at least the universe was worth talking about and a great introduction to armies and factions, etc.


yeah pretty much the 80's and early 90's, when there were btech simulotors in chicago, back then GW was a minor company at best. 40k was in its rogue trader/ 2nd ed era and was not even a blip on the radar of gaming.

I had no idea Battletech existed until I spotted it from a VLOG, so at least here in NZ 40k is "king".

Oh yeah, Sydney had a couple of BT simulator installations.
Linked 4 on 4 player games. About the time of the 3050 release (the return of the old Star League/clans) 1990ish.
It had a cartoon on TV, too (which featured the clans).

BT was big back in the late 80s and early 90s. Huuuuuge, the biggest. Biggly.

When 40k didn't have any plastic vehicles, it wasn't uncommon to see the odd BT model on 40k tables (There were a few 1:100 scale "Locust" walker mechs around - about "sentinel" sized).

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Ah... I guess the Stormtroopers have some wide open flat areas that aren't quite up to GW lover standards... skulls, spikes or runes on every available surface.

If a model looks exactly like the film version it is copying, why is it considered a poor model?

I feel the need to say "have you seen space marines?" I mean, the standard tac marine has even larger flat areas than a Storm Trooper. Thinking about it makes me want to convert a bunch of storm troopers with Space Wolves kitsch to see how they look.


But I think we all agree that Storm Troopers should look like they do in the movies, or something is wrong. They follow some very different design philosophies though (Storm Troopers are meant to be generic and faceless- much like Necrons).

Licensing is always a core issue and inevitably means a game has a limited lifespan (until the license runs out and isn't renewed).
Now, if the license holder, Disney itself, got into the business, then things would get interesting. That could be the real threat to GW: if the big boys like Hasbro and Disney decided to jump into that pond themselves with both feet, rather than just license things to smaller companies.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Licensing is always a core issue and inevitably means a game has a limited lifespan (until the license runs out and isn't renewed).
Now, if the license holder, Disney itself, got into the business, then things would get interesting. That could be the real threat to GW: if the big boys like Hasbro and Disney decided to jump into that pond themselves with both feet, rather than just license things to smaller companies.

That isn't going to happen - Disney don't directly produce any of the merchandise. They much prefer for other business to take all of the risk while they get a nice lump sum up front.

 thekingofkings wrote:


That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

The North America numbers are the only ones we really have. They indicate that 40k isn't selling more than X-Wing- but all contradicting information is literally just made up.


But the numbers suggest something else is going on- that GW's biggest competition in the rising generation isn't from X-Wing.


Games are booming right now. We've had about a decade of solid growth in the gaming industry- and throughout that time, GW kept claiming that their poor sales were in line with "market expectations." At the time, I wondered if it was just spin- trying to say "hey, no one is doing well right now" (when in reality Asmodee and CMON were growing like mad).

But the numbers back them up if you're specific. Tabletop miniatures games have not been leading the charge- those sales have been relatively flat.

It seems to me that a lot of potential tabletop miniatures gamers are getting into board games instead. FFG's advantage in this market is that they're a trusted brand for all of those board gamers if they want to make the jump.

GW has been putting out board games to compete with this- and they've been escalating. I think they've got a good strategy going- support their board games from here rather than try to make them all into 'gateway games.'

phillv85 wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

It is unlikely that something takes over 40k, but comparing it to Battletech, it can happen that 40k kills itself and something else is there to take the spot (like Warhammer took the place from Battletech and 40k from Warhammer)

 kodos wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

It is unlikely that something takes over 40k, but comparing it to Battletech, it can happen that 40k kills itself and something else is there to take the spot (like Warhammer took the place from Battletech and 40k from Warhammer)

FASA is a kind of unique situation. They didn't go down due to losses.

One of the main company owners was a father of Jordan Weissman one of the creative originators of Battletech. He fronted a lot of the money to found FASA and was a major player in the business side of the company.

He saw the downturn starting that wiped out a lot of the roleplay companies at the time and decided to cash in and retire while the going was good. FASA was big on roleplay as well as Battletech.

He and the other major stakeholders made a boat load of money selling off bits of FASA. Microsoft bought the software side to help launch the original X-box. Weissman used the BT IP to launch the Clickytech sysyem. The rest of the IPs were hived out to other interested parties. Mega money was made but in the process Battletech died as a leading wargame. Thankfully the original IP, game and fanbase was strong enough to claw itself back to life but as shadow of its former self.

It's probably a more lightly fate for GW than a competitor stealing all their business. Even then there's a massive difference between a corporate entity like GW and a privately owned company like FASA. Such a sellout mightn't even be feasible/possible.

FASA and GW did fight major battles for the science fiction wargaming players wallet in the Eighties and early Nineties. Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

The gaming-scape changes rapidly and often on a dime. To say 40k will never be overcome I don't think is accurate. Every empire has an end. 40k too will have an end where we discuss it like we do BT.

Will it be at the hands of Star Wars? I doubt it simply because the star wars IP changes hands so often and there have already been several star wars miniatures games that went absolutely nowhere.

But who knows?

niall78 wrote:
Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

Is it? Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days when GW was actually writing red numbers (i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby), especially in the US (but not only there).

And LoTR itself clearly had GW's own No.1 spot for 2-3 years there, before the bubble popped.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

(i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby),

Don't know where you got the impression those are separate eras, Kirby predates LOTR by some time, and has been involved with GW in a senior capacity since at least the early 90s when he led the buyout, and has been at GW since the 80s.

Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days

Always thought WMH was competing more with WHFB than 40k?
40k is sci fi (of whatever sub genre you want to label - gothic/dystopian likely), WMH/WHFB is hi/low fantasy?

Too many games, not enough free time.

I think this game will follow the same path than Rune Wars : lots of hype at first and plenty of people believing it would overthrow GW on its home lands, and we see what is the reality now - Rune Wars never really got off the ground.

X-Wings was popular in its time. Now, it's not the same thing. And let's not talk about Armada, shall we ?

Let's face it, FFG is unable to truly follow a game on long term to the same scales as 40k.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

niall78 wrote:
Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

Is it? Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days when GW was actually writing red numbers (i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby), especially in the US (but not only there).

This depends on the country, in Germany or better in the german speaking countries, Battletech was the big game (tournaments, leagues etc) before it died than came Warhammer Fantasy which was equal to BT's past glory mid/end 7th edition, and 40k's big time started with 5th edi.

PS:
Regarding LoTR it was nit a bubble that popped, it was just that the LoTR community was identical with the Warhammer community and therefore reacted a lot more sensitive to the new policy of reducing models per box and increase prices at the same time

niall78 wrote:

 kodos wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 thekingofkings wrote:

 SirStudent wrote:
No matter what happens GW will never be eclipsed by any company for at least the next 10 years. They are far too big to be eaten, BUT they will lose CHUNKS of their market.

Star Wars may be a popular IP, but it's going to take a combination of games from other companies (Warmachine from PP, Bolt Action from Warlord, etc) to "overthrow" 40k. Remember, 40k is the most popular game out there, and the only way to truly beat it is simply to be more popular than 40k, which is extremely unlikely in the wargaming area, even for Star Wars.

The best way to think of GW is simply as the Imperium of Man. It will always have competitors that will conquer it's worlds, but in the end it will all be nommed by the Tyranids.
You can put whatever preferred company as the Tyranids in this analogy, but point being GW will be slowly whittled away from the center stage. It's just going to take a LONG time.

much bigger and more popular companies have suffered that fate, GW is not immune. at its height battletech and FASA were lightyears more popular than 40 or gw. they crashed hard and fast.

That may be true for America, but I don't think that applies worldwide.

At this point I'd be amazed if anything can overtake 40k. It's going to take a lot of smaller games nibbling at the market share percentage to eat away at GW's dominance. If any license could do it, Star Wars is up there, but I think the licensing could be problematic if someone offers more money for it.

It is unlikely that something takes over 40k, but comparing it to Battletech, it can happen that 40k kills itself and something else is there to take the spot (like Warhammer took the place from Battletech and 40k from Warhammer)

FASA is a kind of unique situation. They didn't go down due to losses.

One of the main company owners was a father of Jordan Weissman one of the creative originators of Battletech. He fronted a lot of the money to found FASA and was a major player in the business side of the company.

He saw the downturn starting that wiped out a lot of the roleplay companies at the time and decided to cash in and retire while the going was good. FASA was big on roleplay as well as Battletech.

He and the other major stakeholders made a boat load of money selling off bits of FASA. Microsoft bought the software side to help launch the original X-box. Weissman used the BT IP to launch the Clickytech sysyem. The rest of the IPs were hived out to other interested parties. Mega money was made but in the process Battletech died as a leading wargame. Thankfully the original IP, game and fanbase was strong enough to claw itself back to life but as shadow of its former self.

It's probably a more lightly fate for GW than a competitor stealing all their business. Even then there's a massive difference between a corporate entity like GW and a privately owned company like FASA. Such a sellout mightn't even be feasible/possible.

FASA and GW did fight major battles for the science fiction wargaming players wallet in the Eighties and early Nineties. Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

wasnt much of a fight, the fasa giant slapping around insignificant little 40k, hell most stores I went into had not even heard of 40k and warhammer was a minor thing as well. those old citadel miniatures were "meh" at best. I bought my first copy of rogue trader (with the shrink wrapped box of 30 marines) from the bargain bin of Waldenbooks, I dont think any more than one or two of the dozen or so games/comic shops even stocked it.

 kodos wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

niall78 wrote:
Battletech is as close as there's ever been to a true competitor to 40k. It's a pity we never got to see the natural outcome of that fight due to daddy Weissman retiring.

Is it? Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days when GW was actually writing red numbers (i.e. post LoTR and pre Tom Kirby), especially in the US (but not only there).

This depends on the country, in Germany or better in the german speaking countries, Battletech was the big game (tournaments, leagues etc) before it died than came Warhammer Fantasy which was equal to BT's past glory mid/end 7th edition, and 40k's big time started with 5th edi.

PS:
Regarding LoTR it was nit a bubble that popped, it was just that the LoTR community was identical with the Warhammer community and therefore reacted a lot more sensitive to the new policy of reducing models per box and increase prices at the same time

Was pretty filthy when that happened with lotr, ok i can understand a price increase or reduce the model count but to reduce model count and price increase at the same time is just pushing it a bit to far and surely turned people off from making purchases, 20 man box of urak-hai went from $55 aus dollar to 10 man boxes at $35 each, that's no small change and borderline looks like they want to milk me.

So, new GW financial report. Sales up 50%, profit triple same period last year.

https://19485-presscdn-0-14-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/2017-18-Press-Statement-final-for-IR-site.pdf

I really don't think GW is in a period of decline ready to be replaced by a Star Wars game right now.

Warhammer will someday be taken out by a competitor but it wont be by a star wars miniature game. Star Wars Miniatures games have an uphill battle against their own fanbase in order to establish. There have been so many different versions of Star Wars skirmish level games that any player who feels the slightest bit unhappy with the ruleset can easily jump into a black hole of alternate systems.

We already see what happens with HH gives 7th ed lovers a route to play their 40k figures in an alternate ruleset. Many would rather move to HH than deal with the change. Star Wars Miniatures is the ultimate expression of that. A play group will start with legion, suddenly have half the players spin into an earlier system and then wonder why there aren't enough numbers for a tournament.

It doesn't help there's still a fair few feeling rather hit by the Imperial Assault to Legions change.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Warhammer will someday be taken out by a competitor but it wont be by a star wars miniature game. Star Wars Miniatures games have an uphill battle against their own fanbase in order to establish. There have been so many different versions of Star Wars skirmish level games that any player who feels the slightest bit unhappy with the ruleset can easily jump into a black hole of alternate systems.

We already see what happens with HH gives 7th ed lovers a route to play their 40k figures in an alternate ruleset. Many would rather move to HH than deal with the change. Star Wars Miniatures is the ultimate expression of that. A play group will start with legion, suddenly have half the players spin into an earlier system and then wonder why there aren't enough numbers for a tournament.

That's a very interesting point I've never thought about before but is absolutely rife in historical gaming systems. Then again historical gamers aren't as locked into one system as fantasy and sciene-fiction gamers seem to be. Jumping rule-sets in historical isn't mainly about finding the best system but finding different systems that offer differing experiences.

Of course the miniatures help in that. A Tiger tank is a Tiger tank. It's must be much more disconcerting and much more work converting a 40k army to use in Gates of Antares. Games with a strong IP in unique miniatures in many ways limit the gamer to the system they are designed for making jumping systems a very major undertaking.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It doesn't help there's still a fair few feeling rather hit by the Imperial Assault to Legions change.

It is interesting to see what will happen there.

Honestly looking at Legion now? I really don't see it overthrowing 40k for one simple reason.

FFG do not expand.

They just sit happy with the Galactic Civil War, maybe even push a little with the new trilogy but that's it. One of the major thing I noticed in my area is that SW games really died because of a lack of variety. EVERYONE wants to play the Empire. In previous Armada tournaments there was 2 rebel players and 8-12 Empire players. X-Wing? Just mirror matches all the time. IA appeared to be the only one that had variety, but YMMV.

It doesn't even appear that they want to even invest in Rouge One, the closest they expanded in IA at least was the Rebels series. No Death Troopers, no Jyn Erso, No Krennick, nothing. Just the original trilogy.

Clone Wars? Mandalorians, Seperatists, The Republic, Genosian hives, Night Sisters, they have so much they could do but they sit on their Storm troopers instead. At least KM tried CW when they had the license for a short time.

40k maybe becoming HH.2-Avengers-Assemble but they have a rabid, zealous fan-base keeping them alive that believe GW can do no wrong. FFG don't.

If they want to even try to even attempt to overtake 40k with legion then they must expand into other eras once they get the bulk of the Galactic Civil War done.

I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

gungo wrote:
People seem to forget this is like ffg 4th mini game version for Star Wars. The only one with relatively 40k strong sales was swing and even that game died down after it had its hey day. Which was only 2 quarters where it was the number one selling miniature game via retail sales and that was during the lull where 40k had only 1 new 40k release.

Sure a Star Wars game could but it won’t eapecially not right now with the huge amount of sales from 40k. I’d be surprised if xwing current outsells AoS, but we will find out in about a month when the new retail numbers come out.

I'm sure that 8th ed was a big boost to 40k sales, but Age of Sigmar sales haven't ever been all that great.


So that everyone is on the same page, ICv2 numbers (which measure sales through hobby channels in North America) have consistently reported that X-Wing has outsold Warhammer 40,000 since Fall of 2015. The most recent numbers they have are for Spring 2017, and they still show X-Wing on top. 8th edition's release in June may very well have put 40k back on top- we don't have those numbers yet.

Hordes and/or Warmachine are consistently in the top 5 (at least one or the other). Star Wars Armada has been a regular in the top 5, but has never outpaced 40k sales.

Age of Sigmar does not regularly make it into the top 5. I don't believe I've ever seen it pass up Warmachine, much less X-Wing.




It is telling that the many years when GW told us that their lagging sales were in line with market expectations, ICv2 reported growth in the gaming industry (tabletop miniatures games seemed much more level than board game sales and such). Overall, it seems like the Roundtree era will be characterized by a lack of the head in the sand strategy that has allowed 40k to slip.


And before we have the argument- yes, these numbers do not include sales funneled through GW's online store- but they will include online sales if the store also has a brick and mortar presence somewhere in North America. Also of note, GW is a big company, but they're actually not as large as Asmodee (the owners of Fantasy Flight) who primarily make a killing on board games.

 Ratius wrote:

Not thematically, but I would argue Warmachine came close in the mid to late 2000s during the late 3rd-4th edition dark days

Always thought WMH was competing more with WHFB than 40k?
40k is sci fi (of whatever sub genre you want to label - gothic/dystopian likely), WMH/WHFB is hi/low fantasy?

They're all competing with one another, really. Warmachine is all steam powered, but it the game features giant robots and wizards in power armor and troops with guns or power weapons (much like 40k). The more original the settings get, the more they are breaking out of the old dichotomy of Scifi and Fantasy.

ICv2 calls them all "non-collectible miniatures games" and I think that's a useful genre. I mean, if someone decides to quit playing 40k and get into another game, they probably aren't going with Heroclix, right?


But that's actually a better argument against X-Wing's top spot. The pre-painted nature of the game makes it inherently different from intense hobby games like 40k, and maybe aren't appealing to the same crowd (at least no more than the board games market is encroaching on 40k sales).


That makes me wonder what the top selling game is if you combine all of the charts. I would expect Magic sales to outpace 40k, and possibly some of the biggest board games (I think Catan is unreasonably popular).

 DarkBlack wrote:
I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

I find it kind of entertaining that people say FFG doesn't support their games as well as GW does. I find GW to be pretty awful at supporting existing games/factions. Every new faction means that an existing faction goes yet another month with no support. I'm not a fan of Warmahordes, but I at least know that if I pick a specific faction, I'll probably get something new several times a year. With GW, my chosen faction may not get anything new for years at a time. My perception as a Necrons player is that in any given year, Necrons will probably be totally unsupported. As an Imperial X-Wing player, I'm confident that I'll get something new multiple times per year for my faction. I'm expecting the same support for Legion. I'm expecting new releases for each faction multiple times per year.

What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

 Kriswall wrote:


What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Yes, this thought process does confuse me.

I mean once you have the stuff to play a game, you always have the stuff to play the game.

That which is not dead can eternal lie. And after Strange Aeons even death may die.

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/10/random-that-is-not-dead-which-can.html