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Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut






I'm a little confused. If there are already so many people with a hatred of GW in general, then surely they're not playing 40K anyway and are already funnelling that money into other sources?

When Legion comes out and if they back it, GW won't be losing anything from those people because they're already not playing/buying?
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





East Coast, USA

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I'm a little confused. If there are already so many people with a hatred of GW in general, then surely they're not playing 40K anyway and are already funnelling that money into other sources?

When Legion comes out and if they back it, GW won't be losing anything from those people because they're already not playing/buying?


Kind of true.

Let's say you have 10 gamers in a store. 7 of them play 40k and the other 3 sit in the back corner and complain about everything. A new player comes in and is looking to start a game. He sees 7 people playing 40k and nobody playing anything else. He's probably going to try 40k.

Now, let's say you have the same 10 gamers. 7 are still playing 40k. The other 3 are playing Legion. A new player comes in and is looking to start a new game. He might try 40k... or he might try Legion. He doesn't know much about 40k, but man are those Stormtroopers just like in the movie! Plus, Darth Vader!

Gamers tend to self organize into communities and generally have limited time to spend on gaming. Establishing a competing community can be both good and bad. It tends to make the dominant community a little smaller, but also tends to increase the overall number of gamers in the area.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Bloodthirsty Chaos Knight




Louisville KY

Gamers play what everyone else is playing.

40k has a large player base. Thats how it escapes falling due to its bad rules and high cost.

A good chunk of our players that play 40k hate 40k, but they know if they get into another game they risk not having people to play with. Its a self-sustaining cycle.

Their hope is that enough people back Legion that 40k bleeds its playerbase off.

http://narrativewargaming.com

Home of Grand Crusade and Azyr Empires
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Kriswall wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I'm a little confused. If there are already so many people with a hatred of GW in general, then surely they're not playing 40K anyway and are already funnelling that money into other sources?

When Legion comes out and if they back it, GW won't be losing anything from those people because they're already not playing/buying?


Kind of true.

Let's say you have 10 gamers in a store. 7 of them play 40k and the other 3 sit in the back corner and complain about everything. A new player comes in and is looking to start a game. He sees 7 people playing 40k and nobody playing anything else. He's probably going to try 40k.

Now, let's say you have the same 10 gamers. 7 are still playing 40k. The other 3 are playing Legion. A new player comes in and is looking to start a new game. He might try 40k... or he might try Legion. He doesn't know much about 40k, but man are those Stormtroopers just like in the movie! Plus, Darth Vader!

Gamers tend to self organize into communities and generally have limited time to spend on gaming. Establishing a competing community can be both good and bad. It tends to make the dominant community a little smaller, but also tends to increase the overall number of gamers in the area.

In my experience, the idea of gamers "self-organizing into communities" precludes the fact that many times when people start up these little groups of their own they aren't exactly welcoming to newcomers--or even really interested in "growing" a community.

They say they're a club/group to get space at shops but never actively recruit. It's a big reason why Mantic's stuff has been kind of a big flop local to me. There's one or two guys who run a "club" but don't ever seem to engage with anyone who seems to be interested.
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





East Coast, USA

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I'm a little confused. If there are already so many people with a hatred of GW in general, then surely they're not playing 40K anyway and are already funnelling that money into other sources?

When Legion comes out and if they back it, GW won't be losing anything from those people because they're already not playing/buying?


Kind of true.

Let's say you have 10 gamers in a store. 7 of them play 40k and the other 3 sit in the back corner and complain about everything. A new player comes in and is looking to start a game. He sees 7 people playing 40k and nobody playing anything else. He's probably going to try 40k.

Now, let's say you have the same 10 gamers. 7 are still playing 40k. The other 3 are playing Legion. A new player comes in and is looking to start a new game. He might try 40k... or he might try Legion. He doesn't know much about 40k, but man are those Stormtroopers just like in the movie! Plus, Darth Vader!

Gamers tend to self organize into communities and generally have limited time to spend on gaming. Establishing a competing community can be both good and bad. It tends to make the dominant community a little smaller, but also tends to increase the overall number of gamers in the area.

In my experience, the idea of gamers "self-organizing into communities" precludes the fact that many times when people start up these little groups of their own they aren't exactly welcoming to newcomers--or even really interested in "growing" a community.

They say they're a club/group to get space at shops but never actively recruit. It's a big reason why Mantic's stuff has been kind of a big flop local to me. There's one or two guys who run a "club" but don't ever seem to engage with anyone who seems to be interested.


Definitely a YMMV type of situation. Not everyone recognizes the need for community building or is good at it. Fortunately, FFG provides a solid framework for community building by making organized play kits and tight enough tournament rules that no house rules are ever needed. You can play a game of X-Wing or Armada with a random stranger in a random store pretty much anywhere in the world and you don't have to negotiate before the game on how certain rules will be interpreted or how army construction will be handled. If you go to an event, you don't have to research which tournament house rules will be used.

FFG games lend themselves to community building. You need a store to order an OP kit and a single player to judge the event. Advertise on local Facebook gaming groups and people will generally show up.

Check out my website. Editorials! Tutorials! Fun Times To Be Had! - kriswallminis.com


https://www.thingiverse.com/KrisWall/about


Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hmm really depends.

The biggest "depends" is going to be what armies Disney lets them make. As people have noticed currently FFG is very restricted in what it can make in X-wing due to Disney not allowing Clone Wars or Expanded universe ships anymore. If that continues to legion then kinda screwed cause 2 factions don't cut it very well. Now if they expand rapidly and do something like Rebellion, Galactic Empire, Scum, Galactic Republic, Separatists, First Order, and Resistance. And you have a solid 7 factions then you have enough to work with.

I love Star Wars as a setting much more then 40k. And if I had a true Stars Wars minatures game when I was a teenager you can bet I would have jumped into it very quickly over 40k. Now the big question is how fast it can grow and take off. If you have no one to play against then all the previous is moot. In my area Warmachine had a decent run then died. 40k is going strong atm. X-wing has seen a dip(Though that might just be cause new stores opened and its split across more stores now). Its just a matter of getting that kickstart to where you have a sustainable group. I remember X-wing being so big at time we would have 20 players on a regular X-wing night and the Tournaments where huge. By the same token....I haven't seen anyone play Armada since the release of Wave 2... I understand that a few people play a game every now and then but...yeah.

So could it? Certainly. FFG writes good rules and Star Wars is a great IP. It just has to catch on everywhere. That the thing about 40k. People play it everywhere. We will have to see.
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think for me that legion is in a strange halfway house. The minis we have seen so far are nothing better than adequate, but they are not painted. I think the people who love the ip and play x-wing will be put off by the painting side of the hobby. Those who love painting will want better models to spend their time on.
I was excited when I first heard of this game but the minis left me cold.

I also think that legion will do a lot better in America than the rest of the world.
I have seen very little buzz around rune wars so far.
Legion will of course do much better but I don't think it will sell as well as x-wing let alone 40k.

One last thing is the part about x-wing outselling 40k. The chart that everyone uses for this info only covers North America and only covers what GW would call trade which is just over a third of their business (according to their latest financial results). GW retail stores and the GW online store is not included. X-wing may be selling so well that it is actually number one but there is no way to prove that.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 14:05:47


 
   
Made in us
Charging Wild Rider







After seeing this game first hand at GenCOn, it feels to me like a rules set slapped together with parts of rules sets from their other games in order to sell Star Wars miniatures.

Movement tools (X-wing/ Armada), Upgrade Cards (same), 2 actions but you can only do move twice (Descent/ IA) combined with the odd "the unit leader is the only guy who means anything" left me unimpressed.

Expansion seems limited, how do you differentiate Snow Troopers from Storm Troopers other than a better or different attack dice?

I am a fan of a lot of many games for the innovative things they bring to the tabletop. I don't see this game doing that. Having said that, I'm sure it will sell a ton because it's Star Wars but I don't think 40K is in jeopardy.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 16:16:55


And so, due to rising costs of maintaining the Golden Throne, the Emperor's finest accountants spoke to the Demigurg. A deal was forged in blood and extensive paperwork for a sub-prime mortgage with a 5/1 ARM on the Imperial Palace. And lo, in the following years the housing market did tumble and the rate skyrocketed leaving the Emperor's coffers bare. A dark time has begun for the Imperium, the tithes can not keep up with the balloon payments and the Imperial Palace and its contents, including the Golden Throne, have fallen into foreclosure. With an impending auction on the horizon mankind holds its breath as it waits to see who will gain possession of the corpse-god and thus, the fate of humanity...... 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





SoCal

I suspect the terrain kits, if FFG releases any, will be the biggest successes.

   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





 auticus wrote:
Gamers play what everyone else is playing.

40k has a large player base. Thats how it escapes falling due to its bad rules and high cost.

A good chunk of our players that play 40k hate 40k, but they know if they get into another game they risk not having people to play with. Its a self-sustaining cycle.

Their hope is that enough people back Legion that 40k bleeds its playerbase off.


I mean this is essentially the reason it won't kill 40k. The most important thing in any game is the ability to play it. Which requires players. Most gamers aren't interested in building a community that plays a game, they want to be able to show up and get a game. Players are also very much into keeping their investment, so if I play 40k it would take a lot for me to want to not play that and instead play another game, especially with fewer players. X-wing is different because it is essentially a quick pick-up style game and as such is not really a direct 40k competitor (it feels closer to playing MTG than it does to 40k). Legion in the end won't bleed off enough of the player base as many other games (Warmahordes, Malifaux, etc) it will develop smaller player bases and will catch on in some areas, but for the most part 40k will be the easiest game to find games for and as such will persist.
   
Made in au
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Melbourne .au

 auticus wrote:
I think that here anyway Legion will destroy 40k. There are a lot of people chomping at the bit to see GW go down and they are already prepared to back Legion 200%. And its not an insubstantial number of people, its half of a city's worth of wargamers or more that refuse to touch GW and want it dead.
I think that the biggest thing is that the models are NOT pre-painted, and I think that will stint what Legion could be. A great majority of xwing players I know do not like painting and love that their ships come prepainted.
Even if the paint job is fugly... they'd be happy that they don't have to paint anything. Having to paint models is a turn off for a great many people and I think for FFG to "sink 40k" they'll need to have prepainted options.


I love posts like this. Your gaming circle is half of the gamers in your city? They all "want GW dead"? Hyperbole much? According to google, you've got a GW store in Louisville, KY, as well as a number of stockists, so it seems to me that they're doing ok enough in your locality to have an actual branded store there.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khadorstompy wrote:
Hmm really depends.

The biggest "depends" is going to be what armies Disney lets them make. As people have noticed currently FFG is very restricted in what it can make in X-wing due to Disney not allowing Clone Wars or Expanded universe ships anymore.


Do you have a source for this? Sounds interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/01 21:55:45


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I would have thought that the imminent release of the Assault Gunboat for X-Wing is evidence to the contrary.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I would have thought that the imminent release of the Assault Gunboat for X-Wing is evidence to the contrary.

Or that the K-Wing, ARC-170, and a few others all came out after Disney acquired the Star Wars property...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/01 22:13:28


 
   
Made in de
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller



Aachen

auticus wrote:I think that here anyway Legion will destroy 40k. There are a lot of people chomping at the bit to see GW go down and they are already prepared to back Legion 200%. And its not an insubstantial number of people, its half of a city's worth of wargamers or more that refuse to touch GW and want it dead.
I think that the biggest thing is that the models are NOT pre-painted, and I think that will stint what Legion could be. A great majority of xwing players I know do not like painting and love that their ships come prepainted.
Even if the paint job is fugly... they'd be happy that they don't have to paint anything. Having to paint models is a turn off for a great many people and I think for FFG to "sink 40k" they'll need to have prepainted options.

Why exactly do people want 40k dead? I don't get it. If you don't like it don't fething play it. I don't like Armada (I do like and play X-Wing though), but I don't want it to fail either. I've seen that kind of thinking a lot with Age of Sigmar, and I just don't get it. Play whatever you like, but leave people alone that like to play games you don't like.

@Azazelx: Sorry mate, fixed the quotes now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 11:52:50


 
   
Made in au
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Melbourne .au

Your quotes. They are (fething) broken. You are attributing to myself things that auticus said that I was arguing against.

   
Made in de
Dakar





Rhein Main Gebiet

Star Wars is everywhere, I think the success of Legion will depend on how many non-wargamers it can attract.

I may be tempted to get some Storm Troopers, but the rebels just look lame... but that may just be because the pic is of Rebels in Forest camo on Tatooine.

"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I'd look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange it for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden and Vir, In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






 StygianBeach wrote:
Star Wars is everywhere, I think the success of Legion will depend on how many non-wargamers it can attract.

I may be tempted to get some Storm Troopers, but the rebels just look lame... but that may just be because the pic is of Rebels in Forest camo on Tatooine.


The rebels looked like they were painted a beige/brown. On a desert world. With generally brown buildings. Seems viable to me.

My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

Chikout wrote:
One last thing is the part about x-wing outselling 40k. The chart that everyone uses for this info only covers North America and only covers what GW would call trade which is just over a third of their business (according to their latest financial results). GW retail stores and the GW online store is not included. X-wing may be selling so well that it is actually number one but there is no way to prove that.

And that chart doesn't even have any data to back it up - it's the results of a survey (and they decline to show us the questions or provide any data about response rate, etc.) and some interviews - i.e. anecdotal at best.
   
Made in us
Dangerous Outrider






I think 40k will be fine, but there will always a change on the top contender depending on releases and how people feeling at the time.

The thing is everyone is very interested in Legion and if I know Fantasy Flight they will do the game right. That will push other games down,
X-wing will continue to be on the board, but games like War machine will start to fall off the charts. There is just so much room in peoples hobby
collection.

With Privateer Press after the one two punch of releasing a subpar new edition of the game and completely destroying the Press Ganger program
that was there main support system, now games like Legion can come in and weaken them even more at the time they are needing to gain
more support.


 
   
Made in us
Ambitious Space Wolves Initiate






Until we see what other sets they will release and how often they plan on releasing them we won't know the market impact. X-Wing players won't jump on this game for the same reason they didn't jump on Runewars. Painting and assembling is expensive and time consuming. X-Wing is neither expensive nor time consuming.
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






I think the factions is going to be the real issue.

While starwars has a vast cast of rich characters that everyone recognizes and wants to put on the table, they really don't have much in the way of armies

Smugglers as a cohesive force isn't much of anything. You essentially have Empire vs Rebels. You could make a Clone army and a Droid army if you want to dip into the much hated prequel era. But who the hell wants to put Anakin on the table and how different is Clones really going to be from Empire? First Order and Resistance... again, play wise basically a reskin of the first 2. All the way back to Old Republic vs Sith Empire? So... Rebels vs Empire with more light sabres.

You could make a Mandalorian army... neat!

Bounty Hunter and Smuggler and Merc neutral units to add to any army.

By my count that means armies that actually have distinct play styles/units outside of characters amounts to Empire, Rebles, Droids, and Mandalorians. 4. In all the eras of Starwars we have 4 armies. Great...

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The answer to the OP is- No.

FFG is not a tabletop miniatures company and are pushing the limit with the IA stuff they do have out. I mean seriously, I see the deal with selling them in "Booster Packs" of 1 or 2 unpainted figs for 15-20 bucks per pack, but THAT is not seriously going to fly with a game in expansion to IA.

I'm honestly interested in IA, and even though I have several of the fig boxes, I am not a real fan of their gak to go all in, just yet. I picked up a side box set, with a couple of tiles, and some figures, as well as picked up some singles, and some boosters of C3PO and R2D2, and a couple of the regular stormtroopers and rebels.I went in 50 bucks for a handful of fugly figs to start with, but lost the taste after I primed them.... Gakshow.

Same as the "Prepainted" X wing game- as I said way back when, the game is limited, and unfortunately, I am also going to call it that the new movie is a Gakshow. I am afraid that it is going to hamstring the "New" tabletop game... I'm honestly waiting to get my FFG Star Wars stuff in the bargain bin when it come time. As of now, in both of my usual shops, the Star Wars gaming is gathering dust, and sits in wait.

From what I have seen for this new "Tabletop" game, it has promise, but I'm not ready to go all in on it, until I can see some of the figures in the flesh. I'm less then impressed with FFG's idea of tabletop, and the quality of their meeples is meh. and 15-20 bucks per pack? no thanks, I'll wait and get them out of the bargain bin in a couple of months.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in de
Dakar





Rhein Main Gebiet

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
 StygianBeach wrote:
Star Wars is everywhere, I think the success of Legion will depend on how many non-wargamers it can attract.

I may be tempted to get some Storm Troopers, but the rebels just look lame... but that may just be because the pic is of Rebels in Forest camo on Tatooine.


The rebels looked like they were painted a beige/brown. On a desert world. With generally brown buildings. Seems viable to me.


I guess you are right, I think I was just looking for a reason for why I thought they looked lame...

I guess they just look lame then.

"What do you want?"
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I'd look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange it for me, Mr. Morden?"
Morden and Vir, In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Grot 6 wrote:
FFG is not a tabletop miniatures company


{citation needed}

For a company that is "not a tabletop miniatures company" they sure do have a lot of miniatures games.

I mean seriously, I see the deal with selling them in "Booster Packs" of 1 or 2 unpainted figs for 15-20 bucks per pack, but THAT is not seriously going to fly with a game in expansion to IA.


Why isn't it going to fly? $15 per model is cheaper than a lot of GW stuff, and unlike with GW games you get all of the rules/tokens/etc included with the model. If this kind of pricing was a fatal flaw then we wouldn't see X-Wing, Warmachine, etc, having so much success.

Same as the "Prepainted" X wing game- as I said way back when, the game is limited, and unfortunately, I am also going to call it that the new movie is a Gakshow.


X-Wing sure seems to have been around for a long time for a "limited" game, and has made a whole lot of money. And don't you think it's pretty early to pass judgement on the gaming potential of a movie that is still months away from release day?

As of now, in both of my usual shops, the Star Wars gaming is gathering dust, and sits in wait.


As of now, in my usual shops, the FFG Star Wars games are thriving while GW's games are barely stocked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:
In all the eras of Starwars we have 4 armies. Great...


How many armies do you really need? X-Wing and Armada work just fine with 2-3 factions, you don't need GW-style design with 500 different special snowflake factions to have an enjoyable game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/03 07:10:42


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in au
Painting Within the Lines





Newcastle NSW

I don't think GW has anything to worry about. While the Star Wars background will appeal to a lot of people, the target audience won't be gamers, it'll be parents buying something for their kids at Xmas. The kids will either get board of it and go back to their consoles or they'll more onto a tabletop game with more range. While FFG have put out some good games they are not a tabletop miniature company, they are a gaming company and should stick to what they know, pre-painted models for a game that can be thrown in a box after a quick 30min game. Wyrd, Privateer Press, GW and countless others already produce vastly superior models for their games and having a certain IP isn't going help just look at Spartan Games and the Halo IP.

The Four Winds Tribe has returned to claim the Underhive for House Escher 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Peregrine wrote:
Let me nitpick you to death..



Like I said. No.

1. The tabletop game for Star Wars isn't going to work out. When you see it with the discussion of what it uses, and how its played, it isn't going to work out. We'll see on the price, as for cheaper- NO. It is not. FFG has games with miniatures, Runewars, and that new Star Wars game is a step in the tabletop mass battle game direction.

2. The new movie is a gakshow. If you saw the first one and thought you were cheated, your really going to love this one. It is a sales gimmick, at best. As for "Gaming potential"... your going to be disappointed, to put it politely.

3. Tabletop, as in mass battle table top game. HOW many fighters do you use in a regular game, 50? 100? Or do you use up to about 5 or 10 per side, like the other players that I have seen playing it? I've been looking at the other FFG games, as well, I don't even think you see 50 or 100 in Armada. I know I haven't seen near that many in IA, when I see it played. As for FFG, what do YOU consider a tabletop wargame? I'm thinking, and looking as Warhammer/ 40K, Warmachine, or Malfaux, or even The new Star Wars tabletop game. X wing? I see maybe ten ships for X wing. Do you use those ships in other games?

4. The price is not going to do it any favors. As opposed to the rubber plastic, I expect more for the cash. at least 5-10 figures, tops. hell, even a squad of 5 would be in the ballpark- for 10 bucks. WHAT do YOU think the squad boxes are going to go for in FFG's new game? $40.00? $50.00?

5. And Speaking of price- 15 dollars for a rubberized ship is not a good price. and for 1? Not worth the price. 20 dollars for 2-3 figures is not worth the price, these are rubberized meeples, that are not even painted. MY citation is that the box that I bought- the Tatoonie one, had a couple of figures, and some tiles in the box, ( A expansion called Twin Shadows.) You have to buy all of the additional figures, or use the ... cardboard chits. I also bought a couple of additional stormtroopers, a rebel pilot, C3PO, and R2D2, and some alien. all told, around 100 bucks.
The best price I saw for these FFG Star Wars games? MAYBE Armada. Depending on your scale, you can throw down a fleet, for the price.
1 Armada expansion= 1 2-3 man IA game= 1-2 X-wing models ( if that)


And for "Armies", How many do you need?
YMMV, but most games survive with additional choices. I'm partial to a stormtrooper army, so I'm easy. Others might want wookies, or any of the hundred other aliens out there. After the "Force awakens..." yeah... how many armies do you need... o.O Maybe 1 or 2 for starters, then add in the additional ones, seeing as there were at least 10 + in the Rebels show, the Original movies, the prequel movies, the clone wars.... the wookies, the Hutt crime networks, the video games, the old Wizkids books....etc.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Rolsheen wrote:
I don't think GW has anything to worry about. While the Star Wars background will appeal to a lot of people, the target audience won't be gamers, it'll be parents buying something for their kids at Xmas. The kids will either get board of it and go back to their consoles or they'll more onto a tabletop game with more range. While FFG have put out some good games they are not a tabletop miniature company, they are a gaming company and should stick to what they know, pre-painted models for a game that can be thrown in a box after a quick 30min game. Wyrd, Privateer Press, GW and countless others already produce vastly superior models for their games and having a certain IP isn't going help just look at Spartan Games and the Halo IP.


You are aware that FFG has produced successful miniatures games that appeal to gamers, many of them former GW customers, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grot 6 wrote:
1. The tabletop game for Star Wars isn't going to work out. When you see it with the discussion of what it uses, and how its played, it isn't going to work out. We'll see on the price, as for cheaper- NO. It is not. FFG has games with miniatures, Runewars, and that new Star Wars game is a step in the tabletop mass battle game direction.


{citation needed}

That seems like a pretty strong statement for a game that hasn't even been released yet. Have you actually played it yet? Or are you just assuming that because the per-model cost is somewhere between GW's cheapest bulk infantry and GW's most expensive single models that it must somehow be doomed?

2. The new movie is a gakshow. If you saw the first one and thought you were cheated, your really going to love this one. It is a sales gimmick, at best. As for "Gaming potential"... your going to be disappointed, to put it politely.


Again, what exactly are you basing this on? You haven't seen the movie yet, so why should this opinion be at all credible?

And no, I don't think I'm going to be disappointed by its gaming potential. It doesn't matter if the new movie has story flaws or poor acting or whatever, if the new ships/weapons/etc are interesting then that's all that a game needs. And so far the new designs seem at least as interesting as the old EU stuff that people fanboy over.

3. Tabletop, as in mass battle table top game. HOW many fighters do you use in a regular game, 50? 100? Or do you use up to about 5 or 10 per side, like the other players that I have seen playing it? I've been looking at the other FFG games, as well, I don't even think you see 50 or 100 in Armada. I know I haven't seen near that many in IA, when I see it played. As for FFG, what do YOU consider a tabletop wargame? I'm thinking, and looking as Warhammer/ 40K, Warmachine, or Malfaux, or even The new Star Wars tabletop game. X wing? I see maybe ten ships for X wing. Do you use those ships in other games?


"Tabletop" and "exactly like GW games" are not synonyms. X-Wing may only have ~3-5 ships per side, but there are plenty of games that have model counts of 10 or less per side that still count as "tabletop miniatures games". The fact that FFG has not yet produced a GW-style game with hundreds of cannon fodder models cluttering up the table does not mean that they aren't a miniatures company.

4. The price is not going to do it any favors. As opposed to the rubber plastic, I expect more for the cash. at least 5-10 figures, tops. hell, even a squad of 5 would be in the ballpark- for 10 bucks. WHAT do YOU think the squad boxes are going to go for in FFG's new game? $40.00? $50.00?


Again, prices at $15 per model are comparable with the models that people buy for other games. I don't see how you can make a credible argument that the prices that people accept in other games are going to magically kill this one.

5. And Speaking of price- 15 dollars for a rubberized ship is not a good price. and for 1? Not worth the price. 20 dollars for 2-3 figures is not worth the price, these are rubberized meeples, that are not even painted. MY citation is that the box that I bought- the Tatoonie one, had a couple of figures, and some tiles in the box, ( A expansion called Twin Shadows.) You have to buy all of the additional figures, or use the ... cardboard chits. I also bought a couple of additional stormtroopers, a rebel pilot, C3PO, and R2D2, and some alien. all told, around 100 bucks.
The best price I saw for these FFG Star Wars games? MAYBE Armada. Depending on your scale, you can throw down a fleet, for the price.
1 Armada expansion= 1 2-3 man IA game= 1-2 X-wing models ( if that)


I'm not sure what your point here is. There are no "rubberized ships" in FFG games, the X-Wing and Armada ships are normal hard plastic just like anything GW produces. Maybe the IA models aren't as nice, but do you have confirmation that the new game is going to use the same plastic type and not the higher-quality plastic like their other miniatures games?

And beyond that, what makes you think that people won't pay that much? There have been successful miniatures games with pre-painted trash made out of even worse plastic, and judging by the way that many 40k players treat their models I don't think quality is a major concern for them. The people that throw heaps of unpainted 40k models into a cardboard box for transport, breaking off random parts in the process, are not going to care about the difference between plastic types. If it's a reasonably nice looking model, as even the IA models are, that's enough to play the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/03 08:22:27


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745932.page]SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS[/url] 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






Yes, i think you do need more than 4 "potential" armies to keep the game interesting. Keeping in mind that it's more likely to just be 2. 40k gets dull as dirt when your always playing against the same few lists. The best way to break that up is variety of armies. You don't need gws 14+. But 6-8.. 8 seems like a great level of variety.

But unlike Starcraft where each army has vastly different tech and units Starwars has everyone gunning around with the exact same levels of tech. gaks gunna get real dull real fast unless they find some real interesting ways to differentiate the armies and their possible builds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/03 09:36:13


   
Made in gb
Captain




London

 Rolsheen wrote:
I don't think GW has anything to worry about. While the Star Wars background will appeal to a lot of people, the target audience won't be gamers, it'll be parents buying something for their kids at Xmas. The kids will either get board of it and go back to their consoles or they'll more onto a tabletop game with more range. While FFG have put out some good games they are not a tabletop miniature company, they are a gaming company and should stick to what they know, pre-painted models for a game that can be thrown in a box after a quick 30min game. Wyrd, Privateer Press, GW and countless others already produce vastly superior models for their games and having a certain IP isn't going help just look at Spartan Games and the Halo IP.


Seeing as parents buying stuff for the kids is the target GW customer base, then perhaps GW should be worried?
   
Made in at
Privateer




Austria

I don't see anything killing 40k in general

But any game has the chance to replace 40k as tournament game if done right.

If Legion can do it depends on some basic things.
First is diversity in Wave 1 and 2. If all viable lists are identical regarding models and just differ in upgrades it won't have players switching over from 40k

The other thing is about rules and missions
if it is just X-WING on ground and all about wipe out the other army, no need to play it

last thing is the upgrade system
cards to replace WYSIWYG is ok, but if cards are not available without models or you need to get models you don't want just for cards it is not really attractive for the usual TT gamer


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lance845 wrote:

By my count that means armies that actually have distinct play styles/units outside of characters amounts to Empire, Rebles, Droids, and Mandalorians. 4. In all the eras of Starwars we have 4 armies. Great...


Going that why, 40k has 3 different ones regarding play style, and are just different how the models look
so already an advantage here if there are 4

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/03 10:11:48


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
 
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