Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Easy E wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:


What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Yes, this thought process does confuse me.

I mean once you have the stuff to play a game, you always have the stuff to play the game.

That which is not dead can eternal lie. And after Strange Aeons even death may die.

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2017/10/random-that-is-not-dead-which-can.html

I call that "Confrontation" and "Chronopia"

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

I find it kind of entertaining that people say FFG doesn't support their games as well as GW does. I find GW to be pretty awful at supporting existing games/factions. Every new faction means that an existing faction goes yet another month with no support. I'm not a fan of Warmahordes, but I at least know that if I pick a specific faction, I'll probably get something new several times a year. With GW, my chosen faction may not get anything new for years at a time. My perception as a Necrons player is that in any given year, Necrons will probably be totally unsupported. As an Imperial X-Wing player, I'm confident that I'll get something new multiple times per year for my faction. I'm expecting the same support for Legion. I'm expecting new releases for each faction multiple times per year.

What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Horses for courses duder.

Me? I prefer GW's release schedule. Give me everything for my army in the space of a few weeks, and let me muddle through as I will.

PP's is equally valid, but not my preferred choice. I'm not a big fan of a constantly shifting meta. Simply put, I don't trust any company to not make the latest model for a faction a must have in the meta.

I find that at least with GW, what's good will remain good for a decent while.

FFG are probably my least favourite though, simply because of how they dish out their cards. When I first started X-Wing, I was massively enthused. I'm a Star Wars nut, a star fighter nut, and a gaming nut. And I picked up at least one of everything. But then, in my opinion, they started to extract the urine. The TIE Advanced, one of the Empire's most iconic ships, was absolutely awful. And they fixed that. If one coughed up £80 for the Imperial big ship. A big ship you might use once in a blue moon. The A-Wing was also bobbins - which was a shame as hands down that's my favourite Star Fighter ever. Unless you coughed up for the Rebel Aces pack, which included cards to fix that.

So whilst you're right to say they do offer ongoing releases for all factions, they do so in the most mercenary and money grubbing way I can think of. YMMV of course - my opinion is for me and me alone to agree with

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
I heard someone say he'd look at legion if FFG broke their "3 army rule", the lack of diversity does not help. Nor does the lack of trust in FFG to support the system.
Star Wars will always be difficult to expand because no gaming company has control of the universe/fluff. Warhammer can be added to as GW see fit (probably a big part of what caused AoS). Not to mention that said fluff is made for the game, so translates better too.

I find it kind of entertaining that people say FFG doesn't support their games as well as GW does. I find GW to be pretty awful at supporting existing games/factions. Every new faction means that an existing faction goes yet another month with no support. I'm not a fan of Warmahordes, but I at least know that if I pick a specific faction, I'll probably get something new several times a year. With GW, my chosen faction may not get anything new for years at a time. My perception as a Necrons player is that in any given year, Necrons will probably be totally unsupported. As an Imperial X-Wing player, I'm confident that I'll get something new multiple times per year for my faction. I'm expecting the same support for Legion. I'm expecting new releases for each faction multiple times per year.

What I think people mean when they say that FFG doesn't support their games is that they aren't confident that the games will be around 20 years from now. I've heard people say (paraphrased), "Why would I spend $15 on an X-Wing kit? FFG might cancel the game 5 years from now and then I'm out of luck." You have to live in the now. Today, despite GW cranking out more overall content, FFG does a better job of supporting existing factions within its games than GW does.

Horses for courses duder.

Me? I prefer GW's release schedule. Give me everything for my army in the space of a few weeks, and let me muddle through as I will.

PP's is equally valid, but not my preferred choice. I'm not a big fan of a constantly shifting meta. Simply put, I don't trust any company to not make the latest model for a faction a must have in the meta.

I find that at least with GW, what's good will remain good for a decent while.

FFG are probably my least favourite though, simply because of how they dish out their cards. When I first started X-Wing, I was massively enthused. I'm a Star Wars nut, a star fighter nut, and a gaming nut. And I picked up at least one of everything. But then, in my opinion, they started to extract the urine. The TIE Advanced, one of the Empire's most iconic ships, was absolutely awful. And they fixed that. If one coughed up £80 for the Imperial big ship. A big ship you might use once in a blue moon. The A-Wing was also bobbins - which was a shame as hands down that's my favourite Star Fighter ever. Unless you coughed up for the Rebel Aces pack, which included cards to fix that.

So whilst you're right to say they do offer ongoing releases for all factions, they do so in the most mercenary and money grubbing way I can think of. YMMV of course - my opinion is for me and me alone to agree with

Could be worse. They could always not fix things.

Yeah it just sucks to have to buy your fix when you have the maximum amount of a certain ship already. For example, buying Rebel Aces if you already had 6 A wings and 4 B wings would really suck, and I know a couple of players who had that happen. Or your fix comes in a different faction's ship, like autothrusters being only in starvipers for a while, or how way back push the limit only came with A-Wings.

If my guardsmen get a fix(or Nerf), I go out and buy a book for about $35, or it comes in a FAQ/Errata. I don't need to go out and buy 2-3 ork boy boxes or a "Guardsmen Aces" pack to get the cards I need to fix my guard army. I don't know if X-Wing has fixed that issue but it was absolutely a thing from launch to Wave VII when I played. You ended up having to buy ships you didn't care about at all to make the ones you liked playable. Again with a 40k comparison, this isn't much worse than having to buy new units because your old favorites suck, just a different kind of suck.

The biggest issue is cards really hold X-Wing back from a proper Version 2, which I feel it could really use. The game desperately needed a wider spread of dice, since the jump of just a single dice massively changes your power to attack or Dodge. Remember how FFG admitted they will never release a 1 attack dice ship again after they realized the HWK main gun was useless? Or how most ships end up with 3 attack dice because 2 is a bit wimpy and 4 base hits like a truck? You can fix a core mechanic like that pretty easy with 40k, by putting out a rulebook and however many codexes you need. For X-Wing you would need to reprint every single card and make them available somehow if you want to make any meaningful changes. Not to mention you invalidate your entire inventory. This isn't a big deal if you can do no wrong and have incredibly competent playtesters, but we know this isn't something FFG has since they are human like all of us. Soontir Fel, the jumpmaster and Phantom are three good examples I can come up with off the top off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more.

That's the issue with X-Wing style games, once they go on for long enough, it's quite possible they can't fix things. They can apply basic little patches here and there but they can never do core gameplay changes if it comes up. That's what people talk about when they mean longevity. X-Wing ten years from now will be the same core system it was when it started. Doesn't matter what problems it has, it will stay the same. We know this because the biggest shakeup FFG attempted, releasing an updated damage deck, was met with a rebellion, so it was made optional which defeated the point. Now people just choose which deck hurts them the least. With 40k you at least have hope (and a severe case of Sherlock Holmes syndrome) that a horribly worked ruleset like 7th can be reworked. I can see 40k, even with GW's pretty lackluster rules writing ability lasting another 30 years. I cant say the same for X-wing unless changes are made.

Which means Legion will never knock out 40k. Which means, going back to the point of this thread, that Star Wars will never take 40k's spot as the sci fi genre of choice for wargaming unless either a change in license holder is made or a new rules approach is adopted. There's not anything wrong with that, I always found "X-killers" (COD killers, WOW killers, Halo Killers) was a buzzword for marketing and if a game truly wanted to be great, it needed to forget the competition and do what worked for it. It will never be the best seller ever, but that's because to be the best seller you need to water down an experience to appeal to a wide playerbase. This is what 40k does, and we see the results of that on this forum all the time. As much as I dislike FFG's approach, it works for them and is different which let's them stand out. It just lacks long term life span, which to be fair it never had to begin with since it's a licensed game. I enjoyed my time with X-Wing and easily got my money's worth out of it and I'm cool with that. 20 years from now it'll be a game I look back on with fond memories as I have a few models on a shelf to look cool, just like my little Stormtroopers I have from that collectible miniatures game 10 years ago. But it definitely won't be around where I can get pickup games and go to tournaments like 40k has the potential to be.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Yeah it just sucks to have to buy your fix when you have the maximum amount of a certain ship already. For example, buying Rebel Aces if you already had 6 A wings and 4 B wings would really suck, and I know a couple of players who had that happen. Or your fix comes in a different faction's ship, like autothrusters being only in starvipers for a while, or how way back push the limit only came with A-Wings.

If my guardsmen get a fix(or Nerf), I go out and buy a book for about $35, or it comes in a FAQ/Errata. I don't need to go out and buy 2-3 ork boy boxes or a "Guardsmen Aces" pack to get the cards I need to fix my guard army. I don't know if X-Wing has fixed that issue but it was absolutely a thing from launch to Wave VII when I played. You ended up having to buy ships you didn't care about at all to make the ones you liked playable. Again with a 40k comparison, this isn't much worse than having to buy new units because your old favorites suck, just a different kind of suck.

The biggest issue is cards really hold X-Wing back from a proper Version 2, which I feel it could really use. The game desperately needed a wider spread of dice, since the jump of just a single dice massively changes your power to attack or Dodge. Remember how FFG admitted they will never release a 1 attack dice ship again after they realized the HWK main gun was useless? Or how most ships end up with 3 attack dice because 2 is a bit wimpy and 4 base hits like a truck? You can fix a core mechanic like that pretty easy with 40k, by putting out a rulebook and however many codexes you need. For X-Wing you would need to reprint every single card and make them available somehow if you want to make any meaningful changes. Not to mention you invalidate your entire inventory. This isn't a big deal if you can do no wrong and have incredibly competent playtesters, but we know this isn't something FFG has since they are human like all of us. Soontir Fel, the jumpmaster and Phantom are three good examples I can come up with off the top off the top of my head, and I'm sure there are more.

That's the issue with X-Wing style games, once they go on for long enough, it's quite possible they can't fix things. They can apply basic little patches here and there but they can never do core gameplay changes if it comes up. That's what people talk about when they mean longevity. X-Wing ten years from now will be the same core system it was when it started. Doesn't matter what problems it has, it will stay the same. We know this because the biggest shakeup FFG attempted, releasing an updated damage deck, was met with a rebellion, so it was made optional which defeated the point. Now people just choose which deck hurts them the least. With 40k you at least have hope (and a severe case of Sherlock Holmes syndrome) that a horribly worked ruleset like 7th can be reworked. I can see 40k, even with GW's pretty lackluster rules writing ability lasting another 30 years. I cant say the same for X-wing unless changes are made.

Which means Legion will never knock out 40k. Which means, going back to the point of this thread, that Star Wars will never take 40k's spot as the sci fi genre of choice for wargaming unless either a change in license holder is made or a new rules approach is adopted. There's not anything wrong with that, I always found "X-killers" (COD killers, WOW killers, Halo Killers) was a buzzword for marketing and if a game truly wanted to be great, it needed to forget the competition and do what worked for it. It will never be the best seller ever, but that's because to be the best seller you need to water down an experience to appeal to a wide playerbase. This is what 40k does, and we see the results of that on this forum all the time. As much as I dislike FFG's approach, it works for them and is different which let's them stand out. It just lacks long term life span, which to be fair it never had to begin with since it's a licensed game. I enjoyed my time with X-Wing and easily got my money's worth out of it and I'm cool with that. 20 years from now it'll be a game I look back on with fond memories as I have a few models on a shelf to look cool, just like my little Stormtroopers I have from that collectible miniatures game 10 years ago. But it definitely won't be around where I can get pickup games and go to tournaments like 40k has the potential to be.

In all fairness, FFG does show a capacity to learn and improve that GW doesn't show. X-Wing absolutely has it's flaws. The dice are definitely one of those. There is a massive jump in power between having one versus two attack dice. Same for defense. Armada's subsequent release had three types of attack dice, allowing for more flexibilty. Legion effectively has nine (basic, surge to hit and surge to crit for each of three colors) different types, allowing for even more flexibility. Each new edition of 40k is largely the same game, with similar flaws.

Being part of a licensed IP for FFG, the various Star Wars games definitely could end at any time. BUT... so long as FFG is making good money for Disney, they'll probably last. This is much the same way that so long as 40k is making good money for GW, it'll last. If the Star Wars IP or 40k stop making money, they'll stop being made.

Legion definitely won't kill 40k, but it will take away yet another slice of the overall market from GW. I've been playing 40k for a long time and am excited about the Custodes being released... but I'm not buying them. I'm spending my money on Legion instead. There are plenty of people like me out there. There are also plenty of people who will stick to 40k over anything else.

I see a surprising amount of excitement for this game in my area and on the social media groups. Lots of people making terrain, planning what to get and paint, etc...

I dunno, it’s no going to kill off 40k by any means, but I think at least at first it’s going to be big. That is, if the miniatures are nice. Some of the pictures I’ve seen have me a little worried. The vehicles look top shelf, but some of the infantry look a little meh.

Um Xwing is no where near 40k sales again. That one quarter it won was a period where there was 3 waves of xwing minis and zero new 40k releases. Since then 40k revamped and scales skyrocketed. Furthermore the initial xwing honeymoon wore off and fatigue set in.’the same happened to PP. ffs I’ll be surprised if xwing beats sigmar this quarter.

Finally people tend to forget try already released a Star Wars mini game that this new Star Wars mini game just undercut. I love Star Wars like most but it doesn’t have the volume of minis to make a variable large scale game. This is someone with almost $1,000 worth of xwing models sitting in a closet.

Kriswall wrote:
In all fairness, FFG does show a capacity to learn and improve that GW doesn't show. X-Wing absolutely has it's flaws. The dice are definitely one of those. There is a massive jump in power between having one versus two attack dice. Same for defense. Armada's subsequent release had three types of attack dice, allowing for more flexibilty. Legion effectively has nine (basic, surge to hit and surge to crit for each of three colors) different types, allowing for even more flexibility. Each new edition of 40k is largely the same game, with similar flaws.

Except you've just proven my point. I'm well aware that FFG is aware of the game's flaws. Their constant erratas and FAQ's are proof of that. FFG does care about it's games and listens to it's playerbase. What I'm pointing out is that they are powerless to fix it. You say it yourself, they learned their lesson and made sure to have a higher variety of dice in Armada and Legion. But that's Armada and legion, it does nothing to fix X-Wing. This would be like saying the issues with a Jeep liberty are no big deal because they fixed it on the Jeep Cherokee. That's cool but it doesn't help the Liberty owner any. This is a similar situation. X-Wing launched with the system it has and it doesn't matter that FFG knows it's screwy and has tons of math and examples to prove it, they're stuck with it. Meanwhile GW got every bit of fan feedback and proof that 7th was a raging dumpster fire and they were able to burn it down and start from scratch. It sounds insane to hear, but with 8th GW is at least trying to make the game better. They've still got a long way to go and are still learning what the heck a balanced ruleset is, but this is far from the dark days of 6th and 7th edition. The important bit though is that they can actually make those changes

This is the problem FFG's card based systems have. They're easy to start and can have easy to purchase releases, but they lack the ability to change the system in meaningful ways after release. An X-Wing V2 using the lessons they learned could be amazing, and could probably fix many of the ships that are functionally worthless (*cough*X-Wings*cough*) but because they are committed to this idea, the player as is stuck with a flawed core system in desperate need of an update. Almost like how 40k is still showing issues of them insisting on keeping skirmish scale rules in a mass battle game. The difference is GW can fix those rules (and it already fixed several with the jump to 8th by dropping armor facings, simplifying unit interactions, getting rid of challenges, and dropping USR's for unit specific ones) not all of these changes are popular, but they actually show GW is learning and trying to fix things. The problem GW has is that the game was so hilariously broken in 7th that even if they had a perfect team it would take years to fix it. Fantasy Flight cannot make these changes without lengthy and often clunky workarounds. Think about all the shenanigans it takes to make ordnance work, or the absolutely insane buff it took to make Kihraxes flyable, or the multitude of nerfs the phantom and jumpmaster needed. Think about all the other Tie Advances, A-Wings, Y-Wings, Slave I's, E-Wings, Tie Defenders, Scyks, etc. that were functionally terrible on arrival. Think about how many new players you talk to where you say "if you want to fly X, you need to buy Y and Z for upgrades to fix it". These are signs of a game that needs a V2. But with every passing release it gets less likely. Every blister is that many more cards and cardboard they need to reprint, making the task more Herculean and painful. This is what will keep any of these games FFG makes from killing 40k. They will claim marketshare for a bit, but eventually their very success will be what kills them.

In addition, the lack of material to draw from like 40k has means Star Wars is limited in what it can do. Once the cash cow releases are gone, aka your X-Wings, your Storm Troopers, etc. you're essentially spent. You can't just release an entirely new faction to the degree 40k can. FFG just doesn't have that kind of control over the star wars license. They can get the odd ship ok'd or made like the raider Corvette thing for empire, but they can't just say tomorrow "hey check out this new race for our game" unless it's getting made in a movie or something. Meanwhile GW can go nuts, pick some random thing that got two paragraphs in some book from ten years ago and say "screw it, they're an army now".

I do find it strange that the 40k lovers can claim their game can be 'reset' for rules but x-wing can't.

When GW do their regular reset, if you owned 3 armies, it would cost you a rulebook and 3 codices minimum. Probably about 125 ukp. All your old books are now outdated and no use. All you are really keeping over is the plastic figures.

Why couldn't FFG do the same to x-wing? You keep the plastic figures, all they need to do is reproduce a card set and the cardboard bases. I bet it would be way less than 125 for every model they've ever made. I mean, what's a MtG deck of 60 cards go for, 10 quid?

FFG absolutely could provide updates and fixes inexpensively if they wanted to. Look at Wyrd who release the cards separately from the minis periodically so that you can get the new rules without re-buying models.

FFG seem not to want to do that though.

Changing the card bases or dials is much harder though. Cardstock like that is really expensive, much more so than you'd think.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
I do find it strange that the 40k lovers can claim their game can be 'reset' for rules but x-wing can't.

When GW do their regular reset, if you owned 3 armies, it would cost you a rulebook and 3 codices minimum. Probably about 125 ukp. All your old books are now outdated and no use. All you are really keeping over is the plastic figures.

Why couldn't FFG do the same to x-wing? You keep the plastic figures, all they need to do is reproduce a card set and the cardboard bases. I bet it would be way less than 125 for every model they've ever made. I mean, what's a MtG deck of 60 cards go for, 10 quid?

Second editions can be a hard pill to swallow. Of the ones I've seen over the years, the ones that survive keep a high level of compatibility with the old material (40K, D&D, etc.)

Most likely, an edition change tends to cause only the most enthusiastic - or newcomers to survive the change.

The best example I can think of for what FFG would face is the fate of the Mechwarrior Clix game. It was pretty popular, up until 2.0 came out. The old mechs weren't invalidated (initially), but the new mechs were so much better - had so many more options - that the entire preceding catalog of mechs weren't worth using. Some of the older sets eventually were phased out from tournaments. Apparently, a lot of the players were like me - with fairly extensive collections that had cost several hundred dollars, now unusable. Within two releases, the Mechwarrior community was dead - maybe some six months had passed.

That is the sort of fate that FFG fears. I don't blame them; how do you revise the game in a way that manages to not make your customers depart en masse?

I've read through the thread but I can't see this information if anyone knows it at this point, but what size of battles is this game based around?

Is it closer to Necromunda or 40k in scale?

Looking at the UK prices it appears this will be in the price range of 40k, so if it's the same scale it won't get be a cheaper alternative. However looking at the US prices it certainly looks like it'll be cheaper there.

There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

It looks like the same sort of level as 2nd edition 40k; a character, a couple of squads, a vehicle or two. The preview articles for the AT-ST and airspeeder say that there's a fixed game points value (I don't know if this is just the "recommended" level like in X-Wing and Armada, of if it's literally the only size allowed) and a fixed limit of two heavy units. IIRC, a single AT-ST will be a quarter of your points allowance.

More than Necromunda - that's sort of what Imperial Assault is for - but you won't be fielding an AT-AT escorted by a squadron of AT-STs, either. You might be able to field a platoon of Stormtroopers (about 30 troops, IIRC, with a couple of crew-served heavy weapons).

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

This is the problem FFG's card based systems have. They're easy to start and can have easy to purchase releases, but they lack the ability to change the system in meaningful ways after release. An X-Wing V2 using the lessons they learned could be amazing, and could probably fix many of the ships that are functionally worthless (*cough*X-Wings*cough*) but because they are committed to this idea, the player as is stuck with a flawed core system in desperate need of an update.

I don't know. The 'card based' system can be tweaked and fixed and is, in fact, fully compatible with a living, and constantly updated system. Privateer press for example have done this. And have done it since the dawn of the previous edition with the 'mk2 update' card deck. Now, they have evolved this model to the point that the cards that define the model/unit profiles are integrated into their 'living game' system, or cid by having an online database with the most recent versions of that card available for download. It's no longer the case that once they're printed, you're stuck with them.Their war room app is also automatically updated with any card updates.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

In addition, the lack of material to draw from like 40k has means Star Wars is limited in what it can do. Once the cash cow releases are gone, aka your X-Wings, your Storm Troopers, etc. you're essentially spent. You can't just release an entirely new faction to the degree 40k can. FFG just doesn't have that kind of control over the star wars license. They can get the odd ship ok'd or made like the raider Corvette thing for empire, but they can't just say tomorrow "hey check out this new race for our game" unless it's getting made in a movie or something. Meanwhile GW can go nuts, pick some random thing that got two paragraphs in some book from ten years ago and say "screw it, they're an army now".

To be fair, ge just releases a new version of space marine, with new bling. Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

Deadnight wrote:
Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

True. GW offers so much. Blue marines, green marines, silver marines, grey marines, red marines, etc etc.

As 40k stands it is really just Imperium vs Aliens vs Chaos. Just a few disguised flavours to make it look more.

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

That rubbish is like claiming Apple dominates the computer market because there’s no Microsoft stores.

 Stormonu wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

That rubbish is like claiming Apple dominates the computer market because there’s no Microsoft stores.

Actually Microsoft Stores are a thing We have several in the California Bay Area.

There is the valid question of the respective size of the fan bases. Fans are always the best 'boots on the ground'

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

True. GW offers so much. Blue marines, green marines, silver marines, grey marines, red marines, etc etc.

As 40k stands it is really just Imperium vs Aliens vs Chaos. Just a few disguised flavours to make it look more.

Even lumping ALL marines (even spiky ones) and all Eldar in together you're looking at:

-Orks
-Necrons
-Tyranids (hell I'll lump GSC in with them)
-Tau
-Marines
-Daemons
-Knights
-Admech
-Imperial Guard
-Eldar

It's a bit disingenuous to say it's 3 factions with flavor. When any one "Alien" faction has as many options as any starwars faction. And that's generally just codex not counting Forge World. That's like saying starwars is really one faction (the galaxy) with a couple of disguised flavors. Ya know, like the stuff that makes them unique factions...

Personally with the resurgence of 8th I don't think Legion can supplant it. It's similar to Runewars. If they'd hit at the right time they'd have grabbed large chunks of the market but they didn't. Star Wars will do better due to name brand and science fiction than Runewars but it's going to be a similar situation I think. Which is decent sales numbers but nothing that'll actually compete with 40k.

 ChazSexington wrote:
There is one overwhelming reason they won't supplant GW's games: GW has boots on the ground. There are no FFG-only shops.

that can be a double edged sword though, GW's presence in my neck of the woods is anemic at best and they face outright hostility from mosts flgs who wont even carry their product, while FFG is supported very well in all of them. granted this is one place, but we have 1 gw, total, within 100 miles and when looking at their store finder, there is inaccurate information in there as well, like stores that have been closed for years and others (like my current flgs) that does not and never has carried GW products.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Me? I prefer GW's release schedule. Give me everything for my army in the space of a few weeks, and let me muddle through as I will.

Not so cool if you play Sisters. Or Dark Eldar at some point. Or Bretonnians. Or so many other examples…

Deadnight wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

This is the problem FFG's card based systems have. They're easy to start and can have easy to purchase releases, but they lack the ability to change the system in meaningful ways after release. An X-Wing V2 using the lessons they learned could be amazing, and could probably fix many of the ships that are functionally worthless (*cough*X-Wings*cough*) but because they are committed to this idea, the player as is stuck with a flawed core system in desperate need of an update.

I don't know. The 'card based' system can be tweaked and fixed and is, in fact, fully compatible with a living, and constantly updated system. Privateer press for example have done this. And have done it since the dawn of the previous edition with the 'mk2 update' card deck. Now, they have evolved this model to the point that the cards that define the model/unit profiles are integrated into their 'living game' system, or cid by having an online database with the most recent versions of that card available for download. It's no longer the case that once they're printed, you're stuck with them.Their war room app is also automatically updated with any card updates.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

In addition, the lack of material to draw from like 40k has means Star Wars is limited in what it can do. Once the cash cow releases are gone, aka your X-Wings, your Storm Troopers, etc. you're essentially spent. You can't just release an entirely new faction to the degree 40k can. FFG just doesn't have that kind of control over the star wars license. They can get the odd ship ok'd or made like the raider Corvette thing for empire, but they can't just say tomorrow "hey check out this new race for our game" unless it's getting made in a movie or something. Meanwhile GW can go nuts, pick some random thing that got two paragraphs in some book from ten years ago and say "screw it, they're an army now".

To be fair, ge just releases a new version of space marine, with new bling. Your point is correct though- the biggest weakness of the Star Wars game is the depth of factions available to ffg is far more limited than in 40k.

So how would you like to send out an email to everyone FLGS and distributor in the world saying "hey, you know every X-Wing box and blister in your store? All of their cards are outdated now."

Retailers would be storming Minneapolis with pitchforks and torches

And it needs the reboot, because the card patches only do so much. How many fixes have been released for X-Wings so far? I stopped caring after integrated astromechs. These title and upgrade shenanigans only help so much, it still doesn't ultimately address that the dice are too limited, or that ordnance sucks without ignoring half it's original rules. And at the end of the day, if the X-Wing's name doesn't say "Biggs", it's usually still considered trash outside of fringe situations with Wes and Wedge. That ship has been in the game for years and STILL isn't fixed. That proves my argument more than anything else.

And you really can't fix some of that without rebooting the rules. But you can't just slap together a V2 and call it a day like you can 8th edition where you make a new rulebook and some codexes. Unlike 40k, where for the most part rules are not packaged with models, FFG packs every rule for a unit in it's blister. So to update to a V2, FFG has two options

1. "Hard reboot": this is where you would burn everything down. Every ship card, every upgrade, every ship stat (which means all the cardboard inserts too) and core mechanics are updated. You now need to contend with over 10 waves worth of X-Wing ships and upgrades, and figure out a way to release hundreds of cards and cardboard base inserts, without costing more than maybe $40 at most or fanbase will rebel. You now also have to explain to every retailer that their product is essentially rotated out, as 90% of each blister is worthless chaff now. You also have to deal with the decision of do you release full playsets for every card/cardboard base (up to 8 copies each) or do you only put in 2-3 of each, so players need multiple "update packs". You also kill all those cool tournament prize exclusive cards over night. You also now need to decide if you can sell your ships at the same price as before even though most of the pack is worthless (angering playerbase) or do you drop the price to reflect the price that only the model and flight dial are useful now (angering retailers)

2. "Soft reboot" FFG tries to reboot the core rules without changing stats on cards. Almost impossible to do in all but the most basic changes. You don't infuriate the fanbase as much but end up with a half-hearted attempt that does little to fix the game. Odds of it ending up like the damage deck update are high.

The biggest point to my argument though, was the reaction to the force awakens starter. Normally gamers are excited for a new edition. Yet many X-Wing players were furious they had to buy it to get the new damage deck for tournaments (which was greatly improved and fixed the original's flaws) Then FFG caved to pressure and made it optional. If the community got that upset over a damage deck, being told they'd need to update to V2 would kill the game. This isn't 40k, where GW can change the game up overnight. A box of guardsmen is a box of guardsmen, they can jump to 8th and all retailers need to do is rotate codexes (that GW will credit them for) and the odd template or pack of cards. That box of Cadians from 4th edition still works in 8th and nothing neess to be changed fromm stocking level. A serious V2 would make it where all "V1" ships are good for is the ship and maybe the movement dials.

They cannot do it. That's simply the long and short of it. I know this sounds like I'm being paid by GW or something but if you know me you know I chew out GW all the time. In this one instance, this specific circumstance, GW has FFG beat. FFG cannot update in a serious way to learn from it's mistakes because its game literally would not survive the jump. 40k on the other hand can reboot and revitalize the game almost overnight. The card system only works if you 100% nail a system from the start and future proof everything. How on Earth can any human being future proof a game that will be played by hundreds of thousands of people with over 10 waves in the next 5 years (many of which aren't even a glimmer in his eye yet) and countless additions and exceptions to the rules? The system was showing strain even back in Wave II as people realized issues with the X-Wing and ordnance. Yet we still have those issues. Yes, they sell new packs to fix this, but this doesn't change the fact that a Y-Wing is useless in the pack it comes in, it needs upgrades from something like 3 other packs, some not even in it's faction, to make it a useable ship. That is not a system working, that is a mess that turns off new players and ramps up cost of entry significantly. This will eventually kill the game under it's own weight if FFG isn't careful, because they can't stop. They HAVE to keep releasing things, and they have to keep coming up with weird exceptions to rules and upgrades to justify it. Which only serve to stress the limits of the system and invalidate old ships. It is going to crush itself under it's own weight, and games like Armada and Legion risk a similar fate.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

So how would you like to send out an email to everyone FLGS and distributor in the world saying "hey, you know every X-Wing box and blister in your store? All of their cards are outdated now."

Retailers would be storming Minneapolis with pitchforks and torches

Genuinely - *shrug*. I doubt it. Again, privateer press and gw did/do this for all their new editions. No reason ffg can't do this either. And the player base lived through it. Some players got angry, some retailers got angry. But once that subsided they just returned the obselete stuff, and got on with it and ordered the new product for their customers. Maybe you don't play these games, so didn't experience it, but this model is entirely possible. Ffg is no different to pp - both deal entirely with third party retailers. If anything, privateer press was even more beholden to the card use aspect of the game than ffg and I feel if they can update their game/card/business model, then so can ffg.

In PP's case, they also went on a PR offensive abut the new edition, pushing all the positive aspects of it, as well as enhancing the aspect she of their marketing thst supported this - e.g. The new war room 2 army building app.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And it needs the reboot, because the card patches only do so much. How many fixes have been released for X-Wings so far? I stopped caring after integrated astromechs. These title and upgrade shenanigans only help so much, it still doesn't ultimately address that the dice are too limited, or that ordnance sucks without ignoring half it's original rules. And at the end of the day, if the X-Wing's name doesn't say "Biggs", it's usually still considered trash outside of fringe situations with Wes and Wedge. That ship has been in the game for years and STILL isn't fixed. That proves my argument more than anything else.

I've only played x-wing casually. Certainly not to the level where I understand all the nuances of the game, or can 'game' it, and at the end of the he day, I'm not all that bothered by it (not a Star Wars fan, nor a dog fighting fan) but I'll accept here that a reboot isn't a bad idea - I have no reason to doubt you.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

And you really can't fix some of that without rebooting the rules. But you can't just slap together a V2 and call it a day like you can 8th edition where you make a new rulebook and some codexes. Unlike 40k, where for the most part rules are not packaged with models, FFG packs every rule for a unit in it's blister. So to update to a V2, FFG has two options

See above. If privateer press can update their warmachine and hordes games and their attendant cards twice (mk3 now), and 'call it's a day', then so can ffg.

And yes, privateer press also made a new rule book and updated the cards/rules for,their games. Theirs is a model where the rules are also packaged with the models as well, just like ffg. And has been since mk1 - about 2001. How did they deal with it? Simple. Official announcement about the new edition, and that the mk2 cards were obselete. They would be updating them with mk3 cards which could be purchased as a 'faction deck' and would eventually be freely downloadable from their website (and this being the most up to date version of said cards). Also, their app - warroom would automatically update with any card updates so there really was no reason to worry.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

1. "Hard reboot": this is where you would burn everything down. Every ship card, every upgrade, every ship stat (which means all the cardboard inserts too) and core mechanics are updated. You now need to contend with over 10 waves worth of X-Wing ships and upgrades, and figure out a way to release hundreds of cards and cardboard base inserts, without costing more than maybe $40 at most or fanbase will rebel. You now also have to explain to every retailer that their product is essentially rotated out, as 90% of each blister is worthless chaff now. You also have to deal with the decision of do you release full playsets for every card/cardboard base (up to 8 copies each) or do you only put in 2-3 of each, so players need multiple "update packs". You also kill all those cool tournament prize exclusive cards over night. You also now need to decide if you can sell your ships at the same price as before even though most of the pack is worthless (angering playerbase) or do you drop the price to reflect the price that only the model and flight dial are useful now (angering retailers)

You need to look beyond gw and ffg. Refer to privateer press and their mk3 updates for warmachine and hordes. They managed all of this. And even evolved how they are going To continually update their rules as part of the changes to their game - refer to CID (community integrated development). It's definitely doable.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

2. "Soft reboot" FFG tries to reboot the core rules without changing stats on cards. Almost impossible to do in all but the most basic changes. You don't infuriate the fanbase as much but end up with a half-hearted attempt that does little to fix the game. Odds of it ending up like the damage deck update are high.

Again, no reason this couldn't be managed if they,chose to.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The biggest point to my argument though, was the reaction to the force awakens starter. Normally gamers are excited for a new edition. Yet many X-Wing players were furious they had to buy it to get the new damage deck for tournaments (which was greatly improved and fixed the original's flaws) Then FFG caved to pressure and made it optional. If the community got that upset over a damage deck, being told they'd need to update to V2 would kill the game. This isn't 40k, where GW can change the game up overnight. A box of guardsmen is a box of guardsmen, they can jump to 8th and all retailers need to do is rotate codexes (that GW will credit them for) and the odd template or pack of cards. That box of Cadians from 4th edition still works in 8th and nothing neess to be changed fromm stocking level. A serious V2 would make it where all "V1" ships are good for is the ship and maybe the movement dials.

I disagree.

And I have no doubt plenty people were excited about force awakens. I'm sure plenty were annoyed about it. No different to what gw or pp have. Ffg deal with the exact same community dynamics as gw. Essentially, people fear change. Plenty people gripe and moans and complain about a new codex/edition and how x and y and z will be obselete etc and how they'll need to buy more to stay relevant in the new edition. I can think of plenty examples of privateer press games for example where a new caster or release (for example, colossal), force a huge change on the meta and people were annoyed they had to buy new units/counters and adapt to a new meta. Plenty players of gw games have to deal with the same thing with new codices that forced a change on the game. Gamers are gamers.
It's just gw don't care about that and barrel on with their changes. I don't necessarily blame them. Because in a way, they're right. A lot of gamers crave that stamp of 'officialdom'. If a company's says 'these are the new rules', sooner or later, the community follows. If gw can release a new version of a game, so can ffg. If a box of guardsmen is a box of guardsmen, then an x-wing is still an x-wing by exactly the same argument. If retailers have to chuck/return obselete codices for 40k thanks to a new edition and do this, then there is no reason they can't/won't do the same for other big selling games. Again, they did this for warmachine/hordes. And pp had loads of books (like the forces of war 'kind-of-codex' books) and cards from mk2 that were obselete by the switch to mk3, and dealt with it. I fail to see why they wouldn't do the same for x-wing.

If ffg were serious about a hard reboot, they would need to understand that they need to bring as much of the old stuff over so it keeps its value. That's a challenge, but again, all part of the game, and it's not a challenge that is uniquely to them - again, refer to privateer press.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

They cannot do it. That's simply the long and short of it. I know this sounds like I'm being paid by GW or something but if you know me you know I chew out GW all the time. In this one instance, this specific circumstance, GW has FFG beat. FFG cannot update in a serious way to learn from it's mistakes because its game literally would not survive the jump. 40k on the other hand can reboot and revitalize the game almost overnight. The card system only works if you 100% nail a system from the start and future proof everything. How on Earth can any human being future proof a game that will be played by hundreds of thousands of people with over 10 waves in the next 5 years (many of which aren't even a glimmer in his eye yet) and countless additions and exceptions to the rules?

It's not that I think you are being paid by gw, but I do think you are rather oblivious to how other successful companies (such as Privateer Press) operate in this industry and how they have updated their games and have survived and thrived, often by doing precisely the things you claim ffg can't do. With respect, all your comments refer to gw, and I'm sorry, but gw are not the only horse in town, nor is theirs the only, or the proper way of doing things. 'how gw does it' is far from the be-all-and-end-all.

The long and the short of it is that I feel you are quite wrong in your blanket assertion that 'they cannot do it'.

Ffg can update in a serious way. Again, refer to pp. they have done everything you claim ffg can't. Ffg have more resources behind them, I find it hard to believe they can't take a leaf out of Matt wilsons book.
Ffg can update in a serious way and learn from its mistakes. It can be a 'living rulebook'. Again, refer to privateer press and CID and their bi-annual errata.
The card system can work. Companies can evolve their systems from x to y. Again, look at privateer press, who went from a 'card packaged in the box' model (because it was 2001...h to one where it is still card based and where the cards are regularly updated as required and where said updated cards cards are easily (and freely) available - either through the pp website downloads or via an app (because it's 2018...).

Regarding the question of How can you futureproof a game that will be played by load screen of people over 5 years with loads of waves? Well, (broken record) privateer press managed it. (A) implements systems To receive player feedback and (b) implement systems to integrate feedback into the game and (c) present updates rules/errata in a timely manner to 'fix' the game in an ongoing manner. Again, CID and regular errata. And there's no reason ffg can't release a new campaign pack with an announcement that this is how they're going to play this from now on. There is no reason to assume that just because rules are released that they must be monolithic never-changing things. The current gaming climate is one that is receptive to games that are continually tweaked with the aim of balance.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The system was showing strain even back in Wave II as people realized issues with the X-Wing and ordnance. Yet we still have those issues. Yes, they sell new packs to fix this, but this doesn't change the fact that a Y-Wing is useless in the pack it comes in, it needs upgrades from something like 3 other packs, some not even in it's faction, to make it a useable ship. That is not a system working, that is a mess that turns off new players and ramps up cost of entry significantly. This will eventually kill the game under it's own weight if FFG isn't careful, because they can't stop. They HAVE to keep releasing things, and they have to keep coming up with weird exceptions to rules and upgrades to justify it. Which only serve to stress the limits of the system and invalidate old ships. It is going to crush itself under it's own weight, and games like Armada and Legion risk a similar fate.

It's the nature of the game sadly. Privateer press have had some of the same issues - unit x needing unit y to synergies well and be 'good', some units needing a particular caster etc etc. Wargames are generally reliant upon selling the 'new wave/codex etc' to stay relevant. Ffg are no different to gw or privateer press. It may Be messy at times, but I also see this as a somewhat pragmatic mechanism for the company to (a) fill the release schedule with new stuff that (by) also solves problematic issues. At the end of the day, they have to sell things, and ttg's are a limited medium - there is only so far you can push any of them before they start to get overheated. I think for most companies, it's down To trying to manage and balance these issues which often compete (i.e. Keep old stuff relevant, whilst simultaneously releasing new stuff that appeals (because new stuff sells more, by all accounts), perform regular 'maintenance' and fix bugs, and trying to balance that maintenance using both errata and 'new stuff' to fix issues as leaning on one at the expense of the other Is problematic) as best as they can.

Fans of 40k - you don't need to worry about Legion taking 40k's spot.

But, a bit of healthy competition can only be a good thing. It will stop your game turning into the bag of gak that it was 7-8 years ago when GW was completely unchallenged in its dominance, and had nothing better to do than go after fan-sites, raise prices yearly and re-release rule and miniature changes that were pretty much exactly the same as the previous version with a 0.1 change.

Let FFG and others worry GW a little bit, it will be better for everyone.

 The Warp Forge wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It doesn't help there's still a fair few feeling rather hit by the Imperial Assault to Legions change.

It is interesting to see what will happen there.

Honestly looking at Legion now? I really don't see it overthrowing 40k for one simple reason.

FFG do not expand.

It doesn't even appear that they want to even invest in Rouge One, the closest they expanded in IA at least was the Rebels series. No Death Troopers, no Jyn Erso, No Krennick, nothing. Just the original trilogy.

Clone Wars? Mandalorians, Seperatists, The Republic, Genosian hives, Night Sisters, they have so much they could do but they sit on their Storm troopers instead. At least KM tried CW when they had the license for a short time.

40k maybe becoming HH.2-Avengers-Assemble but they have a rabid, zealous fan-base keeping them alive that believe GW can do no wrong. FFG don't.

If they want to even try to even attempt to overtake 40k with legion then they must expand into other eras once they get the bulk of the Galactic Civil War done.

Weirdly they have been expanding in the Card Game. Rogue One, Clone Wars have shown up in there alongside Rebels. They've even got a Jar Jar Destiny character card for oddballs sake.



Jar Jar, Rogue One, and Clone Wars characters.. It's very strange that they avoid such for their model based games however.

X-Wing is rather different to Warmachine, though. Warmachine has one card per unit that needs replaced with an edition change. Perhaps you'll need two or three for Warjacks or other units that require marking individual card. X-Wing, by contrast requires one card, dial and base insert per model - fly four X-Wings and you need four cards, four dials and four inserts. Then there's the upgrade cards. A set of replacement cards is gong to be the size of two house bricks, not a pack of fags like the WM decks. No-one would pay for that, and I doubt FFG could give them away free. Even PP got complaints from people who fielded more of a given unit than they got I the deck.

I suppose they could amend the tournament rules to only require a player has at least one copy of any given card, rather than as many copies as they have in play, but what about all the cardstock?

If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

 Marmatag wrote:
If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

I would jump in a heart beat in a prepainted (Or even not prepainted, just normal plastic game) Warcraft game, be it skirmish or actual battles like Kings of Wars. And if that means that they would expand the military component of all the races, even better.

 Marmatag wrote:
If anyone could knock 40k or AoS out completely it would be Blizzard. They could publish a miniatures game, and it would be immediately popular. They'd probably also sell pre-painted and assembled miniatures, which would immediately get people playing.

Didn’t Blizzard already try that? I know there was at least some sort of Warcraft CCG floating around at one time - before Hearthstone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, yes - found it. Apparently, it’s been out for 9 years, so no, it’s not killed 40K.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/34496/world-warcraft-miniatures-game

I don't think a game built on an external IP has the kind of staying power 40k has. Star Wars may be popular, Starcraft may be popular, but the core of these franchises are films and computer games, respectively. A miniatures game based on one of them is just a spin-off, and is hamstrung by the media on which it's built. The original medium still dictates what can be done with such a game.