My point was that why is it ok for Russ to get a pass when he gets tricked into serving chaos, but not anyone else?
Because he wasn't tricked - he followed the chain of command exactly as he was supposed to?
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w1zard wrote: and have given multiple examples in the lore where other people were punished harshly for unwittingly aiding chaos. Magnus being the prime example.
Magnus was punished first and foremost for disobeying the emperor. Regardless of being tricked by chaos he knowingly disobeyed a crystal clear edict from the emperor.
The emperor totally meant for Prospero to be destroyed and Magnus to be killed, so instead of ordering it (like he presumably did twice before) he instead orders Russ to arrest Magnus, knowing that Magnus would resist and get himself killed... He did this convoluted gak for seemingly no reason. The fact that Horus intervened and convinced Russ to do something that would benefit chaos is completely irrelevant and probably what the Emperor wanted anyway...
This is your argument? You can't be serious...
Scott-S6 wrote: Because he wasn't tricked - he followed the chain of command exactly as he was supposed to?
It doesn't matter. I have also given examples where the people involved were doing exactly that and still harshly "dealt with" afterwards if what they did hurt the Imperium.
Magnus was "WANTED" for a capital offense. Magnus refused to come quietly. Magnus used deadly force to resist. Deafly force would naturally be required to respond. This was always one (LIKELY) way his arrest could have gone, independently of Horus's intervening orders. It's for that reason that the Emperor explictly dispatched his Anti-Primarch Primarch to do this job.
I'm not arguing that the Emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus in order that Russ would kill Magnus. I'm saying that the warrant was necessarily made out to bring him in dead or alive. Escape was not something Russ could allow, so the ball was naturally in Magnus's court: if Magnus was truly loyal then he would have submitted to the authority of the Emperor - if not, Russ would force Magnus submit, up to and including killing him if Russ had to.
(2) destruction of Prospero
You're going to have to first make a case as to why the Emperor would even care about the destruction of Propsero before any of us need to explain why he wouldn't.
The emperor totally meant for Prospero to be destroyed and Magnus to be killed, so instead of ordering it (like he presumably did twice before) he instead orders Russ to arrest Magnus, knowing that Magnus would resist and get himself killed... He did this convoluted gak for seemingly no reason. The fact that Horus intervened and convinced Russ to do something that would benefit chaos is completely irrelevant and probably what the Emperor wanted anyway...
This is your argument? You can't be serious...
Scott-S6 wrote: Because he wasn't tricked - he followed the chain of command exactly as he was supposed to?
It doesn't matter. I have also given examples where the people involved were doing exactly that and still harshly "dealt with" afterwards.
No, that isn't my argument, I don't know what is so hard to understand. The Emperor wanted Magnus taken alive, then Russ got new orders from Horus to kill him, then Russ kills him. The Emperor then condoned what Russ did, obviously from reading reports made by Russ about what happened on Prospero. I don't know why you are confused. The lore states this, the Emperor wanted him taken alive, after it all happened he then condoned Russ' actions, he changed his mind, its fact. You aren't making any sense.
Again why would Russ be punished if the Emperor condoned what he did.
Even considering that the Emperor's preferred scenario was Russ bringing Magnus to Terra alive, there was always the high probability that Magnus would die resisting. In other words, the Emperor had to be comfortable with the possible outcome of Magnus's death in order to send Russ in the first place.
No, that isn't my argument, I don't know what is so hard to understand. The Emperor wanted Magnus taken alive, then Russ got new orders from Horus to kill him, then Russ kills him. The Emperor then condoned what Russ did, obviously from reading reports made by Russ about what happened on Prospero.
But, WHY?
"Oh hey Emps, yeah I didn't arrest Magnus like you asked me to, instead I carpet bombed his world, killed every innocent person there and tried to kill him. Why? Because Horus told me to of course. Oh, Horus is leading a rebellion against you? Uh... what I did is totally justified I swear, and you can take my word for it that I did what needed to be done."
No.
I think it is far more likely that the Emperor completely intended Magnus to be arrested and brought back to Terra to sit on the golden throne. Russ overstepped his directive and acted on a very old vendetta with the sanction of Horus. The Emperor realized this and thought to himself that Magnus was probably a lost cause anyway and there was no use crying over spilled milk, and then post-facto pardoned Russ because it was important Russ be on his side for the coming Heresy and not having to deal with being censured. Either that or the Emperor was too busy with the political situation or sitting on the Golden Throne to deal with it. That is the simplest and most plausible explanation in my mind.
I'm not arguing that the Emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus in order that Russ would kill Magnus. I'm saying that the warrant was necessarily made out to bring him in dead or alive. Escape was not something Russ could allow, so the ball was naturally in Magnus's court: if Magnus was truly loyal then he would have submitted to the authority of the Emperor - if not, Russ would force Magnus submit, up to and including killing him if Russ had to.
No the warrant was to SPECIFICALLY bring him alive.
Proof:
Spoiler:
By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV" Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be.
Nowhere in there does it say. "Kill him if he resists" It says bring him alive by any means necessary. Russ very specifically and very purposely did not do that, nor attempted to.
Manchu wrote: You're going to have to first make a case as to why the Emperor would even care about the destruction of Propsero before any of us need to explain why he wouldn't.
Because it was a planet full of loyal Imperial citizens. I already brought up the examples of Curze and Perturabo destroying their homeworlds and getting into massive trouble for it, and their homeworlds were in open rebellion which means they had more of an excuse than Russ did.
No, that isn't my argument, I don't know what is so hard to understand. The Emperor wanted Magnus taken alive, then Russ got new orders from Horus to kill him, then Russ kills him. The Emperor then condoned what Russ did, obviously from reading reports made by Russ about what happened on Prospero.
But, WHY?
"Oh hey Emps, yeah I didn't arrest Magnus like you asked me to, instead I carpet bombed his world, killed every innocent person there and tried to kill him. Why? Because Horus told me to of course. Oh, Horus is leading a rebellion against you? Uh... what I did is totally justified I swear, and you can take my word for it that I did what needed to be done."
No.
I think it is far more likely that the Emperor completely intended Magnus to be arrested and brought back to Terra to sit on the golden throne. Russ overstepped his directive and acted on a very old vendetta with the sanction of Horus. The Emperor realized this and thought to himself that Magnus was probably a lost cause anyway and there was no use crying over spilled milk, and then post-facto pardoned Russ because it was important Russ be on his side for the coming Heresy and not having to deal with being censured. Either that or the Emperor was too busy with the political situation or sitting on the Golden Throne to deal with it. That is the simplest and most plausible explanation in my mind.
I'm not arguing that the Emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus in order that Russ would kill Magnus. I'm saying that the warrant was necessarily made out to bring him in dead or alive. Escape was not something Russ could allow, so the ball was naturally in Magnus's court: if Magnus was truly loyal then he would have submitted to the authority of the Emperor - if not, Russ would force Magnus submit, up to and including killing him if Russ had to.
No the warrant was to SPECIFICALLY bring him alive.
Proof:
Spoiler:
By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV" Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be.
Nowhere in there does it say. "Kill him if he resists" It says bring him alive by any means necessary. Russ very specifically and very purposely did not do that, nor attempted to.
Manchu wrote: You're going to have to first make a case as to why the Emperor would even care about the destruction of Propsero before any of us need to explain why he wouldn't.
Because it was a planet full of loyal Imperial citizens. I already brought up the examples of Curze and Perturabo destroying their homeworlds and getting into massive trouble for it, and their homeworlds were in open rebellion which means they had more of an excuse than Russ did.
Why, because in Magnus' last act he turned to sorcery and chaos. The Emperor most likely knew he'd never stop using sorcery from that and decided that Russ did the right thing. Again Russ never had words with the Emperor about it. Russ did not overstep his directive, and he didn't act on his vendetta as already proven as he originally wanted to take Magnus alive. I'm not going to argue with you if you don't accept facts and continue to be dishonest, you have been shown that Russ was only following orders and that he wasn't acting on a vendetta, even in Nikaea he wanted him to have a very limited and weak punishment.. You are just biased and you aren't accepting facts there is no point arguing anymore.
COERCIVE POWER is when you make someone do what you want by threatening them with violence, up to and including killing them.
The problem with COERCIVE POWER is that if someone would rather die than do what you want them to then you end up killing them and still not getting what you want.
The Emperor, through Leman Russ, tried to assert COERCIVE POWER over Magnus. Because he was an arrogant traitor, Magnus was (initially) prepared to fight to the death rather than submit. Not being stupid, the Emperor would have understood and accepted this possible outcome before deciding to send Russ.
Being willing and authorized to kill Magnus is a necessary and essential component of Russ's mission, just as a matter of logic. It can in no way form the basis of any censure against Russ.
It seems like what you are really asking is more simple: why didn't the Emperor censure Russ for being tricked by Horus? That's, hopefully, self evident.
Regarding Propsero, I don't believe the Emperor cared about "loyal subjects" one way or the other. Even had Magnus submitted and gone quietly when Russ arrived, the probable outcome would be
(1) Magnus enthroned
(2) XVth Legion destroyed to the last man
(3) Prospero purged of any memory of Magnus and the XVth Legion, possibly up to Exterminatus
BrianDavion wrote: Also the emperor was basicly stuck in the dungeon at the time. he may have intended to discuss the matter with Russ but obviously preventing deamons from eating earth took precidance
Sure, but that still means Russ got off the hook because of the political situation.
Daemons don't tend to do politics
Well, unless they're of the moustache-twirling Tzeentch variety, anyway.
Manchu wrote: Today you will learn about COERCIVE POWER.
COERCIVE POWER is when you make someone do what you want by threatening them with violence, up to and including killing them.
The problem with COERCIVE POWER is that if someone would rather die than do what you want them to then you end up killing them and still not getting what you want.
The Emperor, through Leman Russ, tried to assert COERCIVE POWER over Magnus. Because he was an arrogant traitor, Magnus was (initially) prepared to fight to the death rather than submit. Not being stupid, the Emperor would have understood and accepted this possible outcome before deciding to send Russ.
Being willing and authorized to kill Magnus is a necessary and essential component of Russ's mission, just as a matter of logic. It can in no way form the basis of any censure against Russ.
No.
What part of "take him alive by any means necessary" don't you understand? That didn't give Russ carte blanche to kill him if he resists, and your assertions that the Emperor intended for Russ to kill Magnus if he resisted are speculative at best.
All that is a moot point however, because of the fact that Magnus was never offered the chance to surrender. Russ came into the system guns blazing with no intention of taking Magnus back alive.
Manchu wrote: It seems like what you are really asking is more simple: why didn't the Emperor censure Russ for being tricked by Horus? That's, hopefully, self evident.
No.
There have been plenty of other Imperials throughout history that have followed orders in good faith and have had no reason to doubt them, and it turns out those orders were being given by corrupted superiors with the intention of serving chaos. These individuals were dealt with harshly, with no regard to their actual intentions. Why is Russ so special that he warrants such treatment?
Manchu wrote: Regarding Propsero, I don't believe the Emperor cared about "loyal subjects" one way or the other. Even had Magnus submitted and gone quietly when Russ arrived, the probable outcome would be
(1) Magnus enthroned
(2) XVth Legion destroyed to the last man
(3) Prospero purged of any memory of Magnus and the XVth Legion, possibly up to Exterminatus
Now THIS is speculation. The crux of your argument seems to be "well Magnus deserved it and it was probably going to happen anyway, so Russ really didn't do anything wrong". All of that is irrelevant.
The point I am trying to make, is that killing a man on death row is still considered murder. (So to speak)
Well, unless they're of the moustache-twirling Tzeentch variety, anyway.
What I mean by "political situation" is the realities of what is happening at the time regardless of whether or not they actually have to do with politics. But I get your point
First, let's deal with this alleged argument that it's fine that Russ killed Magnus because Magnus was a dead man walking anyhow. I totally agree that it's a bad argument. So let's just get past the mistaken notion that I'm making that argument.
Next, let's go over this point about coercive power and deadly force once more. Don't even think about Magnus and Russ, put them out of your mind for a moment. Just reflect on this simple narrative example. Imagine a police officer pursuing a suspect. The officer catches up with the suspect. The suspect opens fire on the officer. The officer returns fire, killing the suspect. The police officer is not guilty of murder. The death of dangerous fugitives is always a foreseeable possible outcome of pursuing them.
Likewise the death of Magnus would necessarily be a foresseable possible outcome of sending a giant military expedition, armed to the ever-loving teeth, to capture him. To be clear, this point is NOT meant to justify Russ attacking Prospero. All this establishes is that the Emperor necessarily must have known that it was reasonably possible that Magnus would die as a result of the Emperor sending Russ to capture Magnus.
Finally, as to the fate of Prospero had Magnus duly surrendered to Russ and been taken back to Terra. It is NOT speculation to assert that the Emperor would have destroyed Magnus - killing him or lobotomizing him and/or shackling him to the Golden Throne. And the XVth Legion would likewise be destroyed. This was made explicit by the Emperor himself at Nikaea:
If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time.
The allusion there is obviously to the IInd and XIth Legions. It is speculative to suggest that as part of eliminating the XVth from history, Prospero would be purged or even simply annhiliated. But it is not unfounded or even improbable.
Manchu wrote: Next, let's go over this point about coercive power and deadly force once more. Don't even think about Magnus and Russ, put them out of your mind for a moment. Just reflect on this simple narrative example. Imagine a police officer pursuing a suspect. The officer catches up with the suspect. The suspect opens fire on the officer. The officer returns fire, killing the suspect. The police officer is not guilty of murder. The death of dangerous fugitives is always a foreseeable possible outcome of pursuing them.
Likewise the death of Magnus would necessarily be a foresseable possible outcome of sending a giant military expedition, armed to the ever-loving teeth, to capture him. To be clear, this point is NOT meant to justify Russ attacking Prospero. All this establishes is that the Emperor necessarily must have known that it was reasonably possible that Magnus would die as a result of the Emperor sending Russ to capture Magnus.
Your analogy is flawed.
Your hypothetical police officer was ordered by the police chief to apprehend the criminal alive by any means necessary.
Also, in order to be completely accurate... your hypothetical police officer showed up at the scene with his gun already drawn and no intention of following those orders after speaking to a dirty supervisor beforehand. (Again we don't know what Horus said to Russ)
Manchu wrote: It is speculative to suggest that as part of eliminating the XVth from history, Prospero would be purged or even simply annhiliated. But it is not unfounded or even improbable.
Even if that was to be Prospero's ultimate fate (and I still maintain that it is speculation to assume that it was), that was not Russ' prerogative to enact. The executioner in a prison isn't supposed to just start offing death row inmates willy nilly, even though that is ultimately his job. There are procedures and clear sequences of events that need to take place before something like that can be done and still have it considered "just". The emperor had not ordered it yet.
You're not reading carefully enough. The fact that the arrest of Magnus could have always entailed the death of Magnus is unrelated to what Russ thought his orders were by the time he arrived at Prospero.
There is no fluff anywhere, so far as I know, indicating that the Emperor personally approved or did not approve of each deployment of the exterminatus sanction.
To bring this back into focus, your question was: why didn't the Emperor censure Russ?
But you have not established why the question would even arise, other than censuring Russ for being tricked by Horus. The Emperor would be hard pressed to criticize Russ for being deceived by Horus, considering the Emperor was also apparently deceived.
Manchu wrote: You're not reading carefully enough. The fact that the arrest of Magnus could have always entailed the death of Magnus is unrelated to what Russ thought his orders were by the time he arrived at Prospero.
And you aren't understanding my point. The emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, ALIVE. Assuming that the Emperor meant for Russ to kill Magnus if he resisted is pure speculation, and arguably not even good speculation as the orders specifically said ALIVE.
Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ to get him to disobey the Emperor's directive, but disobey he did.
Continuing your police analogy... you can't justify killing a suspect who fought back, when you never gave them the chance to surrender in the first place and never intended to.
Manchu wrote: There is no fluff anywhere, so far as I know, indicating that the Emperor personally approved or did not approve of each deployment of the exterminatus sanction.
But there IS fluff that says that Primarchs aren't allowed to enact exterminatus sanction without permission from the emperor, at least on Imperial worlds. Curze was arrested for it, and Perturabo would have been had he not joined Horus in exchange for a pardon if Horus won.
What you have to understand is, it may not have been possible to bring Magnus back alive. Magnus and the XVth Legion are extremely dangerous. That's why the Emperor sent a literal army. This is the nature of coercive power: sometimes threats are eefective but the ultimate threat sometimes must be carried out.
Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.
Manchu wrote: Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.
Sure, but exterminatus is worse than what happened to Olympia an Perturabo was still going to get the Curze treatment for it, it was the entire plot point behind why Perturabo turned traitor.
You have to admit, just exterminatus-ing a loyal Imperial planet because they happen to be in your way is not something the Emperor would have accepted, even from Primarchs.
I can accept that Russ was manipulated or fooled by Horus into thinking that what he was doing had Imperial sanction. I can even accept that Magnus might have even been needed to killed, or maybe even deserved it. But the fact of the matter was that Magnus was never given a chance to surrender, and thus fighting back was his only option. You cannot then use his fighting back as a justification for trying to kill him in the first place. Not only that, but what Russ did to the people of Propsero was jumping the gun at BEST, or a warcrime that could have gotten him treated like Curze otherwise. The fact of the matter is that the Emperor condoned it afterward, and so we have to accept the fact that Russ didn't do anything wrong from an Imperial perspective. I am just curious as to why Russ seems to have gotten off so easily from a debacle that could (or should) have gotten him declared a traitor.
Manchu wrote: Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.
Sure, but exterminatus is worse than what happened to Olympia an Perturabo was still going to get the Curze treatment for it, it was the entire plot point behind why Perturabo turned traitor.
You have to admit, just exterminatus-ing a loyal Imperial planet because they happen to be in your way is not something the Emperor would have accepted, even from Primarchs.
I can accept that Russ was manipulated or fooled by Horus into thinking that what he was doing had Imperial sanction. I can even accept that Magnus might have even been needed to killed, or maybe even deserved it. But the fact of the matter was that Magnus was never given a chance to surrender, and thus fighting back was his only option. You cannot then use his fighting back as a justification for trying to kill him in the first place. Not only that, but what Russ did to the people of Propsero was jumping the gun at BEST, or a warcrime that could have gotten him treated like Curze otherwise. The fact of the matter is that the Emperor condoned it afterward, and so we have to accept the fact that Russ didn't do anything wrong from an Imperial perspective. I am just curious as to why Russ seems to have gotten off so easily from a debacle that could (or should) have gotten him declared a traitor.
Yes and no - Magnus however did know the fleet was coming, he could have surrended himself at any point but he did willfully set up the whole battle, making his own forces as weak as possible but not actually surrendering himself or them.
Even with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence I am not sure that Russ could have taken him alive and if the Legion and all its assets had been on full battle alert the battle could have gone either way.
Instead, Magnus made sure that his people and Legion were devestated. Even some of his own Legion balme him for what happened.
Mr Morden wrote: Yes and no - Magnus however did know the fleet was coming, he could have surrended himself at any point but he did willfully set up the whole battle, making his own forces as weak as possible but not actually surrendering himself or them.
Even with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence I am not sure that Russ could have taken him alive and if the Legion and all its assets had been on full battle alert the battle could have gone either way.
Instead, Magnus made sure that his people and Legion were devestated. Even some of his own Legion balme him for what happened.
Magnus felt (through the use of his psychic powers) that Russ was coming to kill him and not take him prisoner, instead of surrendering (which was impossible from his perspective, he was going to be killed by the Imperium one way or another) he did the next best thing by disabling the orbital defense grid and making sure that nobody knew the Space Wolf fleet was coming. I also highly doubt that trying to bust into Russ' head to psychically communicate with him, or to break the wards on Russ' flagship to appear and psychically communicate with him would have gone over well, especially after the webway incident. Russ was also not known as the greatest of listeners, and from Magnus' perspective wouldn't have stopped to listen anyway. There was also the pride thing, Magnus surrendering to his brother whom he considered the most ignorant and savage of his contemporaries... the idea galled him.
Mr Morden wrote: Yes and no - Magnus however did know the fleet was coming, he could have surrended himself at any point but he did willfully set up the whole battle, making his own forces as weak as possible but not actually surrendering himself or them.
Even with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence I am not sure that Russ could have taken him alive and if the Legion and all its assets had been on full battle alert the battle could have gone either way.
Instead, Magnus made sure that his people and Legion were devestated. Even some of his own Legion balme him for what happened.
Magnus felt (through the use of his psychic powers) that Russ was coming to kill him and not take him prisoner, instead of surrendering (which was impossible from his perspective, he was going to be killed by the Imperium one way or another) he did the next best thing by disabling the orbital defense grid and making sure that nobody knew the Space Wolf fleet was coming. I also highly doubt that trying to bust into Russ' head to psychically communicate with him, or to break the wards on Russ' flagship to appear and psychically communicate with him would have gone over well, especially after the webway incident. Russ was also not known as the greatest of listeners, and from Magnus' perspective wouldn't have stopped to listen anyway. There was also the pride thing, Magnus surrendering to his brother whom he considered the most ignorant and savage of his contemporaries... the idea galled him.
Have you read A thousands Sons - all this is covered.
No I think Magnus was looking to die - and his Legion and people with him - he killled Ulthizzar when he went to warn his brothers and then for a week he had .
... almost given in to his self-destructive yrges and turned his powers upon himself
As to comunicating with Russ and co and breaking the wards - he and Amon travelled and stood on the bridge of the Russ's own ship, the Hrafnkel flagship of the fleet and watched them as they approached!
He refuses to do anything to defend the planet but also does not surrender himself in that moment despite also saying he and the Legion should accept whatever punishment that the Emperor will dish out to prove their loyalty. He choses not to do anyting other than accept the attack
As the bombardment begins he says:
Now I know how you felt father......I am here. Do what you will.
Its clear as far as Magnus is concerned this is all rightful punishment by the Emperor! But wants someone to take his life and expunge his mistakes - granting him some form of salvation
Lastly he could have simply gone to meet them in a ship boradcasting his surrender.....
Mr Morden wrote: No I think Magnus was looking to die - and his Legion and people with him - he killled Ulthizzar when he went to warn his brothers and then for a week he had
Oh yes, definitely. But he didn't know that surrender was an option, nor that the emperor ordered his arrest not his death. All he saw was Russ coming to kill him. Even if he did know that surrender was an option he was most likely going to be put to death anyway so why bother?
Mr Morden wrote: As to comunicating with Russ and co and breaking the wards - he and Amon travelled and stood on the bridge of the Russ's own ship, the Hrafnkel flagship of the fleet and watched them as they approached!
I don't ever remember this happening in any of the depictions of the battle of Prospero. Can you please post a quote? I highly doubt that Russ would let Magnus aboard his flagship during the battle, only to allow him to leave and start the fight on the surface.
Mr Morden wrote: He refuses to do anything to defend the planet but also does not surrender himself in that moment despite also saying he and the Legion should accept whatever punishment that the Emperor will dish out to prove their loyalty. He choses not to do anyting other than accept the attack
Because he thought the attack WAS the punishment. It wasn't, it was Russ acting out a vendetta with the sanction of Horus. The emperor wanted Magnus arrested, not killed, Magnus did not know this. He only knew Russ was coming to kill him, not why.
Mr Morden wrote: Lastly he could have simply gone to meet them in a ship boradcasting his surrender.....
Remember, Russ was not there to arrest Magnus, he was there to kill him. There was no safe way for Magnus to surrender himself once the shooting started, which it did the second the Space Wolves entered the system.
If Magnus boarded a shuttle and flew toward the Space Wolf fleet broadcasting surrender on all channels, he would have been most likely shot out of the sky.
He and Amon travel to the flagship before it even arrives in system: A Thousand Sons p 462 - 465
The book describes them entering the Warp and reaching the fleet in transit in it
Leading them was a feral blade of a ship
long bit describing the fleet and the Hrafnkel
The two pass through all the defences -
the protectove shields that kept void-predators at bay no match for travellers of such power
They "stand" and lisen to the masters of the fleet discuss the destruction of Prospero, but do nothing alhough Magnus answers the question to his companion
The Council of Nikea were they right to name us warlocks
with
I fear they may have been but only now do i undertand that
He could have revelaed himself there and then.
He comfirms that he has "Blinded " the Thousand Sons and that both he and the Legion (and presumably the planet) should accept the punishment. The TS fleet is ordered to disperse some days later.
Note at this point he could have minimised casulties - even ecavuated part of the planet.
Even if he did know that surrender was an option he was most likely going to be put to death anyway so why bother?
Because his planet and Legion might be spared? or at lest the latter. He makes no attempt to do anyhing to save the planet and all his people only enacting a final safeguard to save Legionaries at the last moment when he finally turns to Chaos in his heart.
He comfirms that he has "Blinded " the Thousand Sons and that both he and the Legion (and presumably the planet) should accept the punishment. The TS fleet is ordered to disperse some days later.
Note at this point he could have minimised casulties - even ecavuated part of the planet.
I think you are reaching here. Magnus was using his powers to scry, and may not have been able to communicate. Any attempt to breach the minds of the Space Wolves or Russ may have been construed as an attack anyway.
Regardless, you said it yourself, Magnus initially wanted to accept the Emperor punishment. He just thought that the Emperor's punishment was his death and the death of his legion and world. When it really wasn't. What good would surrendering have done if Russ was under orders to kill him and his planet anyway? Evacuating or trying to hide his forces could have been construed as trying to escape his punishment. If the police are coming for you, it's best to let them come to you instead of rushing out to meet them or trying to hide.
Continuing with the police analogy from before... Police officer shows up who has no intention of arresting suspect and plans on shooting him on sight. *Police officer shoots suspect* Police officer says "He was resisting arrest, it was a justified shooting". My response: "You can't call it a justified shooting when you never gave him a chance to surrender in the first place". Your response: "Well he should have tried harder to evade the police or something, or surrendered himself to the police officer who had no intention of trying to take him alive, it's his fault".
Manchu wrote: Olympia did not suffer exterminatus. Curze was meant to be brought to heel for a whole pattern of psychotic behavior, including his destruction of Nostramo.
Sure, but exterminatus is worse than what happened to Olympia an Perturabo was still going to get the Curze treatment for it, it was the entire plot point behind why Perturabo turned traitor.
You have to admit, just exterminatus-ing a loyal Imperial planet because they happen to be in your way is not something the Emperor would have accepted, even from Primarchs.
I can accept that Russ was manipulated or fooled by Horus into thinking that what he was doing had Imperial sanction. I can even accept that Magnus might have even been needed to killed, or maybe even deserved it. But the fact of the matter was that Magnus was never given a chance to surrender, and thus fighting back was his only option. You cannot then use his fighting back as a justification for trying to kill him in the first place. Not only that, but what Russ did to the people of Propsero was jumping the gun at BEST, or a warcrime that could have gotten him treated like Curze otherwise. The fact of the matter is that the Emperor condoned it afterward, and so we have to accept the fact that Russ didn't do anything wrong from an Imperial perspective. I am just curious as to why Russ seems to have gotten off so easily from a debacle that could (or should) have gotten him declared a traitor.
would what Russ did qualify as exterminatus? Extermintus is defined as whiping out all life on the world, did Russ do that or just crack all the cities?
BrianDavion wrote: would what Russ did qualify as exterminatus? Extermintus is defined as whiping out all life on the world, did Russ do that or just crack all the cities?
Spoiler:
Taking up orbit themselves, the Space Wolves' vessels commenced saturation orbital strikes upon the entire planet. Magma Bombs, directed energy-weapons, mass-drivers and even ballistic cannons were unleashed upon the surface of Prospero, in an assault that literally changed the surface of the world forever: mountains were levelled, valleys filled with their rubble; the seas were boiled away, flashed into steam; the very bedrock of Prospero was pounded and heated into new shapes, like metal upon the anvil; boiling hot winds swept across the world, bringing with them the smell of heated metals and oils.
This bombardment was so sudden and so strong that moments after it began, only one population centre still survived on Prospero: a standing unit of Thousand Sons from the Raptora Cult kept a telekinetic shield generated over the city of Tizca. This shield, as hard and impenetrable as those generating it could mentally conceive, proved completely proof against the fearsome orbital bombardment directed at Tizca, even though sympathetic damage to the kine-shield killed several members of the cult maintaining the shield.
Russ set out from Terra to bring back Magnus alive, something that might not actually be possible and could result in Magnu's death (or Russ's death for that matter). By the time Russ reached Propsero, thanks to Horus's intervening orders, Russ understood his mission to be, to paraphrase the Emperor on Nikaea, visit destruction on Magnus and strike the XVth Legion from history. So the police officer metaphor only works when we're talking about the Emperor's initial orders. If we're talking about what Russ believed he was ordered to do after Horus contacted him, we're not dealing with anything like a police action. Rather, we're talking about an execution. Even so, Leman Russ wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender. The only shred of insubordination Russ possibly showed was in hoping his brother was not as bad as Horus must have made him out to be.
Manchu wrote: Russ set out from Terra to bring back Magnus alive, something that might not actually be possible and could result in Magnu's death (or Russ's death for that matter). By the time Russ reached Propsero, thanks to Horus's intervening orders, Russ understood his mission to be, to paraphrase the Emperor on Nikaea, visit destruction on Magnus and strike the XVth Legion from history. So the police officer metaphor only works when we're talking about the Emperor's initial orders. If we're talking about what Russ believed he was ordered to do after Horus contacted him, we're not dealing with anything like a police action. Rather, we're talking about an execution. Even so, Leman Russ wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender. The only shred of insubordination Russ possibly showed was in hoping his brother was not as bad as Horus must have made him out to be.
Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ. It could be something as simple as "I know the emperor ordered you to do this, but I think Magnus is too dangerous to be kept alive, so if you go kill him like I know you want to, I'll back you up politically."
All we know is Horus spoke to Russ and then afterward, Russ disobeyed the emperor's directives. If you want to make that argument... Russ' culpability is tied to what was said between them. Since we do not know this... From the way I see it we can only judge Russ on his actions. I don't think Russ would intentionally betray the Emperor or the Imperium... but I do think that his prejudice toward Magnus allowed Horus to easily manipulate him, and caused him to be way too 'trigger happy' with the whole situation.
Exterminatus-ing Propsero was also needlessly brutal.
Manchu wrote: You won't find any reasonable person willing to take that silly bait.
we know from Russ' own lips whatever Horus told him was eneugh to provoke a more agressive response, perhaps Horus simply told him the truth? that Magnus' actions directly threatened Terra, that he has been consorting with and making deals with denzines of the warp. The truth, the FULL truth about Magnus would be IMHO eneugh to damn him
He comfirms that he has "Blinded " the Thousand Sons and that both he and the Legion (and presumably the planet) should accept the punishment. The TS fleet is ordered to disperse some days later.
Note at this point he could have minimised casulties - even ecavuated part of the planet.
I think you are reaching here. Magnus was using his powers to scry, and may not have been able to communicate. Any attempt to breach the minds of the Space Wolves or Russ may have been construed as an attack anyway.
Regardless, you said it yourself, Magnus initially wanted to accept the Emperor punishment. He just thought that the Emperor's punishment was his death and the death of his legion and world. When it really wasn't. What good would surrendering have done if Russ was under orders to kill him and his planet anyway? Evacuating or trying to hide his forces could have been construed as trying to escape his punishment. If the police are coming for you, it's best to let them come to you instead of rushing out to meet them or trying to hide.
Continuing with the police analogy from before... Police officer shows up who has no intention of arresting suspect and plans on shooting him on sight. *Police officer shoots suspect* Police officer says "He was resisting arrest, it was a justified shooting". My response: "You can't call it a justified shooting when you never gave him a chance to surrender in the first place". Your response: "Well he should have tried harder to evade the police or something, or surrendered himself to the police officer who had no intention of trying to take him alive, it's his fault".
Hmm I am pretty sure level of power that Magnus has allows him to manifest and communicate. You don;t need to breech minds to do that - he was standing right there - having breached all the wards and such that you were worried about before and when the fleet was weeks away. They could not have done much to a image - maybe the sisters of silence could have disrupted his sending but that's about it.
From the same part of the book, Magnus repeatedly states its HIS punishment and his legionaries ask - why do we have to suffer it?
He did send the entire fleet away already and he does have a backup plan to save some of his Legion - or perhaps a part of him does. If he had stayed and been broadcasting we surrender on all channels - he might have got a response - I am not sure he would have but he never tried. Whether that's pride, self destruction, shame or the fact that his legion would not have stood for it - as they didn't despite his specific orders not to resist.
I need to read the companion book and see what Russ and co thought was happening at the same time.
If Magnus and his Legion had been on full battle muster and resisted - I do really think that the outcome was in doubt.
I don't think that the police analogy works that well given that this is military dominated state ruled by an old testament style God.
Continuing with the police analogy from before... Police officer shows up who has no intention of arresting suspect and plans on shooting him on sight. *Police officer shoots suspect* Police officer says "He was resisting arrest, it was a justified shooting". My response: "You can't call it a justified shooting when you never gave him a chance to surrender in the first place". Your response: "Well he should have tried harder to evade the police or something, or surrendered himself to the police officer who had no intention of trying to take him alive, it's his fault
It more. "A emissary of God is on his way to you, you know you have gravely offended Him and that the penalty he has decreed for this is death. You use your forbidden powers to view the armada and the leaders but this does nothing more than confirm your guilt and the punishment that is coming. As such a grave sinner you have several options - repent and throw yourself on the mercy of the emissary - knowing that they may have none or resist and confirm your heresy.
He kinda tries to do both but succeeds at neither - its a pretty human reaction but his culpability is clear in all respects.
Mr Morden wrote: It more. "A emissary of God is on his way to you, you know you have gravely offended Him and that the penalty he has decreed for this is death. You use your forbidden powers to view the armada and the leaders but this does nothing more than confirm your guilt and the punishment that is coming. As such a grave sinner you have several options - repent and throw yourself on the mercy of the emissary - knowing that they may have none or resist and confirm your heresy.
He kinda tries to do both but succeeds at neither - its a pretty human reaction but his culpability is clear in all respects.
Fair enough... I think that is a pretty accurate portrayal of the situation, I touched on this early in the thread but from my point of view Magnus was faced with a choice:
-Turn to chaos
OR
-Die an ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders (although Magnus did not know this at the time, he finds out later)
I do not want to remark on whether Magnus' choices were right or wrong though. This is about Russ' actions. I suppose you can wrap everything up in "Russ was tricked by Horus and he is absolved of all responsibility for everything that went wrong on Prospero" but I don't buy that. There was some really deep drama between Magnus and Russ that played a huge part in what happened, and Russ is absolutely to blame for that.
Manchu wrote: It seemed to me that w1zard was suggesting treachery on tye part of Russ, which is fan fiction levels of absurd.
Then you aren't reading hard enough... I said:
w1zard wrote: I don't think Russ would intentionally betray the Emperor or the Imperium... but I do think that his prejudice toward Magnus allowed Horus to easily manipulate him, and caused him to be way too 'trigger happy' with the whole situation.
Exterminatus-ing Propsero was also needlessly brutal.
In fairness though "needlessly brutal" is the Wolves MO. I return to my earlier statement that given who and what Russ and his Legion where, given the state of relations between the Space Wolves and the 1K sons and their primarchs respectivly the Emperor HAD to know that this could blow up horriably continueing the police analogy, a domestic dispute has been called in, and the officer you send in to deal with it, is the man the husband is accusing his wife of having an affair with.
now this is eaither (another) example of "the emperor was a total moron" or he didn't really care too much if Magnus and the 1k sons all died anyway because he choose the 1 legion most likely to provoke them to resist
BrianDavion wrote: now this is eaither (another) example of "the emperor was a total moron" or he didn't really care too much if Magnus and the 1k sons all died anyway because he choose the 1 legion most likely to provoke them to resist
Then why did he order Magnus arrested and not killed? Or even said "if he resists, kill him" or something along those lines?
We know from prior incidents that the emperor had a tendency to involve "rival" legions whenever censuring was involved, and the Wolves were the "rival" legion to the Sons.
But the Emperor ordered Magnus arrested and brought back to Terra ALIVE "by any means necessary". It kinda doesn't mesh with the "I don't care what happens to Magnus theory". (I agree, Magnus' legion was probably expendable though).
Manchu wrote: Russ set out from Terra to bring back Magnus alive, something that might not actually be possible and could result in Magnu's death (or Russ's death for that matter). By the time Russ reached Propsero, thanks to Horus's intervening orders, Russ understood his mission to be, to paraphrase the Emperor on Nikaea, visit destruction on Magnus and strike the XVth Legion from history. So the police officer metaphor only works when we're talking about the Emperor's initial orders. If we're talking about what Russ believed he was ordered to do after Horus contacted him, we're not dealing with anything like a police action. Rather, we're talking about an execution. Even so, Leman Russ wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender. The only shred of insubordination Russ possibly showed was in hoping his brother was not as bad as Horus must have made him out to be.
Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ. It could be something as simple as "I know the emperor ordered you to do this, but I think Magnus is too dangerous to be kept alive, so if you go kill him like I know you want to, I'll back you up politically."
All we know is Horus spoke to Russ and then afterward, Russ disobeyed the emperor's directives. If you want to make that argument... Russ' culpability is tied to what was said between them. Since we do not know this... From the way I see it we can only judge Russ on his actions. I don't think Russ would intentionally betray the Emperor or the Imperium... but I do think that his prejudice toward Magnus allowed Horus to easily manipulate him, and caused him to be way too 'trigger happy' with the whole situation.
Exterminatus-ing Propsero was also needlessly brutal.
You are seriously reaching here. We don't need to know what Horus said, we simply need to know that Russ followed chain of command. Let's not forget another major name in this battle was Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian, who also went along with the lie that Horus told. The Emperor's most loyal servant followed the Warmaster's change of plan, so that means that even the Custodes recognise the authority of the Warmaster in the Great Crusade Which makes sense, as the Emperor decreed that Horus' orders were to be followed as if they were spoken, again quoting this for the 50th time "from mine own mouth."
Horus does not need to make political backings with Russ and its arguable that it would have no sway on Russ, who grew up feral and whose idea of rule are very viking in nature. He values strength, loyalty and honour, the political sway holds little appeal to him. The only way Horus was going to be able to change the order and keep with Russ' character is if he said "Magnus is too dangerous to capture alive and bringing him to Terra would endanger that world, so the Emperor has sanctioned his extermination. The Emperor commands you to enforce the Edict of Nikaea on Magnus the Red."
However we also know from Prospero Burns that Russ tried to reach out for a peaceful solution through Hawser but the message didn't get received because Hawser was a pawn of chaos. This at least shows that Russ was willing to offer mercy and capture Magnus, but Magnus, through his own actions by making no meaningful attempt to reach out and surrender, signed his own Death warrant.
Exterminatus was entirely warranted. Again, the Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Considering the entire planet of Prospero were followers of Magnus, being the society he was raised in and later would become ruler of, that surely qualifies them as being marked for death. Further, he said '"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time." Wiping all record of the Thousand Sons and Magnus would be a little hard with a bunch of Psykers just left to pick up the pieces of Magnus' body. We know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are honour bound from speaking of the missing Legions, with even Horus refusing to break that vow during a Traitor's war council. But human followers of that Legions are just as likely to go spread the word and make records of the lost XVth Legion. Especially ones that value recording and knowledge
w1zard - There's no need to speculate. Horus told Russ his new orders were to kill Magnus. Anything else implies Russ knowingly colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. Speculatively, Horus most probably elaborated with details of Magnus's alleged (but, in fact, not merely alleged) misdeeds, tantamount to Traffick With Ye Warp, to make the new "orders" seem even more plausible.
BrianD - the Emperor knew that Magnus disobeyed his most solemn order under peril of personal destruction as well as destruction of the XVth Legion. If Magnus was so far gone as to disregard the seriousness of the Edict, and the Emperor's own personal warning directly to the Cyclops, then the Emperor could safely conclude that Magnus would most probably resist to his full ability. Hence another full Legion would have to be sent to deal with this and, not coincidentally, the Emperor had made a Legion with this sort of thing in mind, which he further supplemented with anti-psyker capability plus sending the master of his own Custodes just to show without any confusion that Russ's mission enjoyed the full authority of the Emperor himself. In short, Magnus was either going to die at Propsero resisting Leman Russ or be subdued by Russ and taken back to Terra for a fate likely worse than death. It wasn't that the Emperor didn't care whether Prospero might burn or whether the XVth Legion would be stricken. Magnus had already sealed the fate of all his works, including his adoptive homeworld, his adoptive people, and his own Thousand Sons, when he refused to obey the Emperor's Edict. Would things have been much different if Horus had not intervened? Perhaps the whole thing would have been "resolved" over a longer period, but I doubt the result would have been different for Prospero.
Deadshot wrote: You are seriously reaching here. We don't need to know what Horus said, we simply need to know that Russ followed chain of command. Let's not forget another major name in this battle was Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian, who also went along with the lie that Horus told. The Emperor's most loyal servant followed the Warmaster's change of plan, so that means that even the Custodes recognise the authority of the Warmaster in the Great Crusade...
Valdor initially protested and said "this isn't what the Emperor wanted" or something similar before being overruled by Russ. Russ told Valdor that if he didn't like it he could go back to Terra. Valdor reluctantly declined and said he would follow Russ' lead.
Proof:
Spoiler:
The early stages of the Prospero campaign were to open a rift between the two champions of the Imperium, ironically due to the iron-clad loyalty of both commanders. For where Russ had concluded that to best serve the Imperium Magnus must die, Valdor would not deviate from the Emperor’s orders to take the Crimson King alive. While Valdor would eventually defer to Russ as the Emperor’s chosen commander of the Censure fleet, relations between the two commanders would remain strained during the fighting on the Thousand Sons’ home world of Prospero.
Tellingly, those of the Remembrancer Order who had accompanied Valdor were dismissed and returned to Terra under Russ' orders long before the fleet departed on the final leg of its journey.
Deadshot wrote: Exterminatus was entirely warranted. Again, the Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Considering the entire planet of Prospero were followers of Magnus, being the society he was raised in and later would become ruler of, that surely qualifies them as being marked for death. Further, he said '"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time." Wiping all record of the Thousand Sons and Magnus would be a little hard with a bunch of Psykers just left to pick up the pieces of Magnus' body. We know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are honour bound from speaking of the missing Legions, with even Horus refusing to break that vow during a Traitor's war council. But human followers of that Legions are just as likely to go spread the word and make records of the lost XVth Legion. Especially ones that value recording and knowledge
And again, the Emperor did not order it and it's not Russ' place to enact that without the Emperor's go ahead.
Both the law and the consquence of breaking the law were laid down by the Emperor himself at Nikaea, which Russ personally attended among other primarchs.
Manchu wrote: Both the law and the consquence of breaking the law were laid down by the Emperor himself at Nikaea, which Russ personally attended among other primarchs.
The penalty for murder in some states is the death penalty. That doesn't mean police officers get to shoot murder suspects on sight.
By the same token the Emperor promised to damn Magnus if he broke the edict, but it is not Russ' place to enforce that edict unless the emperor orders him to, which he explicitly did not.
Manchu wrote: Russ reasonably believed the Emperor had ordered precisely that.
Again, we don't know that, because we don't know what Horus said to Russ. There is also the fact that Valdor initially argued with Russ, saying Magnus' execution was not what the Emperor wanted. See my quote a couple of posts up.
Manchu wrote: w1zard - There's no need to speculate. Horus told Russ his new orders were to kill Magnus. Anything else implies Russ knowingly colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. Speculatively, Horus most probably elaborated with details of Magnus's alleged (but, in fact, not merely alleged) misdeeds, tantamount to Traffick With Ye Warp, to make the new "orders" seem even more plausible.
BrianD - the Emperor knew that Magnus disobeyed his most solemn order under peril of personal destruction as well as destruction of the XVth Legion. If Magnus was so far gone as to disregard the seriousness of the Edict, and the Emperor's own personal warning directly to the Cyclops, then the Emperor could safely conclude that Magnus would most probably resist to his full ability. Hence another full Legion would have to be sent to deal with this and, not coincidentally, the Emperor had made a Legion with this sort of thing in mind, which he further supplemented with anti-psyker capability plus sending the master of his own Custodes just to show without any confusion that Russ's mission enjoyed the full authority of the Emperor himself. In short, Magnus was either going to die at Propsero resisting Leman Russ or be subdued by Russ and taken back to Terra for a fate likely worse than death. It wasn't that the Emperor didn't care whether Prospero might burn or whether the XVth Legion would be stricken. Magnus had already sealed the fate of all his works, including his adoptive homeworld, his adoptive people, and his own Thousand Sons, when he refused to obey the Emperor's Edict. Would things have been much different if Horus had not intervened? Perhaps the whole thing would have been "resolved" over a longer period, but I doubt the result would have been different for Prospero.
Deadshot - you 100% nailed it.
thats what I mean by didn't care. the Emperor knew that in all likelyhood the 1k sons would resist, and it seems didn't much care eaither way.
As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.
We know from prior incidents that the emperor had a tendency to involve "rival" legions whenever censuring was involved, and the Wolves were the "rival" legion to the Sons.
We do? when did the Emperor employ rival legions to censor one another? And don't use Monarchia, because that was where the rivalry between the Word bearers and Ultramarines began, a VERY one sided rivialry I might add. to the Ultramarines the entire incident was simply a regretable case of just doing their job.
BrianD - I see, you meant "didn't care" in the sense that the Emperor resigned himself to the fact that Prospero and its people would likely be collaterally damaged in the attempt to bring Magnus to heel and, furthermore, would probably need to be wiped out anyhow. Sorry for the confusion.
Deadshot wrote: You are seriously reaching here. We don't need to know what Horus said, we simply need to know that Russ followed chain of command. Let's not forget another major name in this battle was Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian, who also went along with the lie that Horus told. The Emperor's most loyal servant followed the Warmaster's change of plan, so that means that even the Custodes recognise the authority of the Warmaster in the Great Crusade...
Valdor initially protested and said "this isn't what the Emperor wanted" or something similar before being overruled by Russ. Russ told Valdor that if he didn't like it he could go back to Terra. Valdor reluctantly declined and said he would follow Russ' lead.
Proof:
Spoiler:
The early stages of the Prospero campaign were to open a rift between the two champions of the Imperium, ironically due to the iron-clad loyalty of both commanders. For where Russ had concluded that to best serve the Imperium Magnus must die, Valdor would not deviate from the Emperor’s orders to take the Crimson King alive. While Valdor would eventually defer to Russ as the Emperor’s chosen commander of the Censure fleet, relations between the two commanders would remain strained during the fighting on the Thousand Sons’ home world of Prospero.
Tellingly, those of the Remembrancer Order who had accompanied Valdor were dismissed and returned to Terra under Russ' orders long before the fleet departed on the final leg of its journey.
Deadshot wrote: Exterminatus was entirely warranted. Again, the Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Considering the entire planet of Prospero were followers of Magnus, being the society he was raised in and later would become ruler of, that surely qualifies them as being marked for death. Further, he said '"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time." Wiping all record of the Thousand Sons and Magnus would be a little hard with a bunch of Psykers just left to pick up the pieces of Magnus' body. We know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are honour bound from speaking of the missing Legions, with even Horus refusing to break that vow during a Traitor's war council. But human followers of that Legions are just as likely to go spread the word and make records of the lost XVth Legion. Especially ones that value recording and knowledge
And again, the Emperor did not order it and it's not Russ' place to enact that without the Emperor's go ahead.
The Emperor DID order it because Horus ordered it. "From mine own mouth" is the words the Emperor used. Meaning "If Horus says jump, treat it as if I personally commanded you to leap and smash your skull on the nearest moon." The chain of command specifically laid out by the Emperor was that what Horus says goes. Its not even a case of "if our orders differ" because the assumption was that the orders would never differ. Horus was the "Mouth of the Emperor," kind of how the Mouth of Sauron from Return of the King is used - his lord and master speaks through him, he is simply a mouthpiece for the overlord's words.
If Valdor had truly believed that what Russ was doing was not sanctioned, that Russ was disobeying an order from the Emperor, he would have cut down Russ there and then. Its his job and in his core psyche. He simply disagreed that killing was the best bet, and differed. BUT, if he had suspected Horus was not on side, and that Russ was disobeying, which he wasn't, Valdor would have stopped Russ.
Manchu wrote: Russ reasonably believed the Emperor had ordered precisely that.
Again, we don't know that, because we don't know what Horus said to Russ. There is also the fact that Valdor initially argued with Russ, saying Magnus' execution was not what the Emperor wanted. See my quote a couple of posts up.
Again, his argument was that "That wasn't what the Emperor told me," not "We don't do that sort of thing." To which Russ undoubtedly replied "Well Horus said to do it and if Horus said it, it must be true," to which Valdor replied "Okay, makes sense!"
Manchu wrote: As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.
Why? I agree that it is unlikely, but it is a possibility. To say that is impossible would be fanboyism. I for one could definitely see Russ disobeying an order from the Emperor if he REALLY believed in something. He was the kind of person who believed in honor above anything else, even following orders.
I suppose you can wrap everything up in "Russ was tricked by Horus and he is absolved of all responsibility for everything that went wrong on Prospero" but I don't buy that. There was some really deep drama between Magnus and Russ that played a huge part in what happened, and Russ is absolutely to blame for that.
How is the ill will between Russ and Magnus to be laid exclusively on Russ's shoulders?
To the extent that you're saying Russ was actually a traitor and betrayed the Emperor in order to pursue a vendetta against Magnus, it seems to play into the larger fanboy theme you (and, to be fair, many others over the years) are proposing that Magnus was actually loyal. The fact is, Magnus was very clearly disloyal whereas Russ was very clearly loyal. Fans who want to revise and rehabilitate the character of Magnus always get around to running down Russ, eventually.
It's ironic to imply Russ disobeyed the Emperor when the only hint of disobedience he actually showed in the matter was, when he believed his mission was to kill Magnus, he still wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender - that is, explicitly contrary to the vendetta smear.
Manchu wrote: As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.
Why? I agree that it is unlikely, but it is a possibility. To say that is impossible would be fanboyism. I for one could definitely see Russ disobeying an order from the Emperor if he REALLY believed in something. He was the kind of person who believed in honor above anything else, even following orders.
No he wasn't. In fact it was just the oppisite and the books make numerous referance to this, that Russ knew he was the "executioner" it was a dirty busniess, where he and his legion did "the jobs no one else wanted/where willing to do" it was only after Prosperio that Russ and the Space Wolves additude shifted to "do what we think is right and damn anyone who tries to tell us differently" one which is perfectly understandable as they've already been tricked into doing something by someone who claims to be speaking for the Emperor
Manchu wrote: How is the ill will between Russ and Magnus to be laid exclusively on Russ's shoulders?
it isn't and I never claimed it was. Let me turn that around on you, how is the ill will between Russ and Magnus to be laid exclusively on Magnus' shoulders?
Manchu wrote: To the extent that you're saying Russ was actually a traitor and betrayed the Emperor in order to pursue a vendetta against Magnus, it seems to play into the larger fanboy theme you (and, to be fair, many others over the years) are proposing that Magnus was actually loyal.
Magnus was not loyal. Everything he did was for the good of his legion and the Imperium as a whole but he broke a whole lot of rules including the big one laid down at Nikaea and in general was an arrogant ass. This isn't about what Magnus did though, this is about Russ' actions.
Manchu wrote: The fact is, Magnus was very clearly disloyal whereas Russ was very clearly loyal. Fans who want to revise and rehabilitate the character of Magnus always get around to running down Russ, eventually.
It's ironic to imply Russ disobeyed the Emperor when the only hint of disobedience he actually showed in the matter was, when he believed his mission was to kill Magnus, he still wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender.
It is funny that you are so dismissive of the possibility that Russ placed his own vendetta above his orders from the Emperor despite it being intentionally left vague by the authors. It is also funny that you believe being tricked by Horus seems to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions, despite Valdor's protestations, despite similar actions having large repercussions when done by others, and despite the fact that others have been condemned as traitors for being tricked by chaos in the same manner.
If anyone is guilty of fanboyism it isn't me.
BrianDavion wrote: ...Russ knew he was the "executioner" it was a dirty busniess, where he and his legion did "the jobs no one else wanted/where willing to do" it was only after Prosperio that Russ and the Space Wolves additude shifted to "do what we think is right and damn anyone who tries to tell us differently" one which is perfectly understandable as they've already been tricked into doing something by someone who claims to be speaking for the Emperor
Which is a whole lot of introspection for a chapter who believes the 1K sons got what they deserved and that Russ was totally justified. Which is to say that I don't buy that. The Space Wolves had always had those tendencies.
They were tricked by someone they completely trusted. Being tricked doesn't make the person who was tricked wrong. But it does make them less trusting. And not being wrong doesn't mean they don't regret being tricked.
Manchu wrote: At this point, you are calling me a fanboy for re-stating to you what actually happened in the story. So, I guess we've reached an impasse.
Likewise, you are calling me a fanboy for simply pointing out that "Russ did nothing wrong" is just as wrong as "Magnus did nothing wrong". What happened on Prospero is not as simple as "Wolves good guy, Thousand Sons bad guys", and trying to break it down to that is an insult to the narrative. It is a lot more ambiguous than that. I suppose if we have not reached common ground in 12 pages that we will have to agree to disagree.
Manchu wrote: You won't find any reasonable person willing to take that silly bait.
we know from Russ' own lips whatever Horus told him was eneugh to provoke a more agressive response, perhaps Horus simply told him the truth? that Magnus' actions directly threatened Terra, that he has been consorting with and making deals with denzines of the warp. The truth, the FULL truth about Magnus would be IMHO eneugh to damn him
Quite. The emperor made a very clear decree as to what would happen to anyone (but very obviously magnus in particular) that continued those practices.
Manchu wrote: At this point, you are calling me a fanboy for re-stating to you what actually happened in the story. So, I guess we've reached an impasse.
Likewise, you are calling me a fanboy for simply pointing out that "Russ did nothing wrong" is just as wrong as "Magnus did nothing wrong". What happened on Prospero is not as simple as "Wolves good guy, Thousand Sons bad guys", and trying to break it down to that is an insult to the narrative. It is a lot more ambiguous than that. I suppose if we have not reached common ground in 12 pages that we will have to agree to disagree.
I entirely disagree. The fact is, Imperium = good, Chaos = bad, and therefore Wolves are entirely the good guys. Russ DID do nothing wrong while Magnus' arrogancr and ambition led to his own distruction. He may be a tragic figure but certainly not a tragic hero. He knew the rules and broke them willingly for his own vision of the Greater good and was punished for it. That's all the narrative boils down to. How he was punished, or why he was punished so severely, is a seperate argument entirely.
Manchu wrote:What did Russ do wrong?
Like every kid in detention for doing as their father said and hitting the bully back - winning the fight. Not just Prospero, but being on a winning side. The further into the 21st century we get, the more edgy people try to be, picking holes in hero characters and trying to subvert characters into a more anti-hero or anti-villain because they just dont like their favourite character being a bad guy or loser. Primarchs and the Emperor especially because they are pinnacle humanity, and readers cant accept that it really is as simple as Good vs Bad. The Emperor is constantly labelled a benevolent tyrant as an insult rather than a fact, and how withdraw and aloof he wad, rather than recognise the necessity of his actions as part of a greater plan. Likewise, people fail to understand that Magnus single-handedly doomed humanity to an eternity of being prayed on by Daemons like Odyssian sea beasts, while also almost costing the Loyalists the Heresy, and all of it through his own ambitions.
Russ' crime was that GW made his Legion into a Space Marines BUT BETTER chapter, and that he won the Battle of Prospero.
False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'
and also
A Thousand Sons, p535.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.
I strongly agree with you, Deadshot. I cannot tell you how frequently I have rolled my eyes reading comments to the effect that the Emperor was/is stupid, hypocritical, evil, unable to undertsand basic social interaction, etc, etc. And even if we can say that the Imperium at large is more than a little sinister, the Space Wolves stand out as compassionate and heroic. Like a pizza cutter, speculation that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves somehow betrayed the Emperor at Prospero is all edge and no point.
Furthermore, the story of Propsero - indeed the story of Magnus more generally - is not morally complex. Magnus never even considered obeying the Edict of Nikaea. There was no struggle in his conscience between doing what he should and doing what he wanted. He disregarded the Edict because he was confident that he knew better than everyone else, including the Emperor. All the talk about the betterment of humanity and the brave pursuit of knowledge is so much rationalization of pride. His warning about Horus was not motivated by loyalty to the Imperium, but his all-consuming lust to prove himself right and the Emperor wrong. When it blew up in his face, he still didn't have the moral courage to accept the consequences, even as he claimed that was exactly what he was doing. Instead, he buried his head in the sand and left his supposedly-beloved legion twisting in the wind until the Space Wolves had finally wreaked enough carnage that the Cyclops felt justified in actually fighting. And then he lost and, rather than face death with dignity, he made the final deal with Tzeentch to save himself, all the while rationalizing it as a last-ditch effort to save his Legion, which were only in need of saving because of his own faults. And then he spent how many thousands of years locked away on the Sorcerer's Planet, bemoaning his fate.
BrianDavion wrote: Almost like they have deep complicated feelings on the matter like real people often do.
I don't understand how someone can be ashamed of something, and yet simultaneously hold the view that they did nothing wrong.
You can feel bad about something even if you didn't think what you did was wrong. Russ mostly came to regret that he was wasting time fighting the thousand sons while Horus and company murdered three legions on Isstavan. He did what he was ordered to do and Magnus was ultimately an arrogant heretic who thought he was the smartest guy in the room when he had basically been played since the beginning
Deadshot wrote: ...The further into the 21st century we get, the more edgy people try to be, picking holes in hero characters and trying to subvert characters into a more anti-hero or anti-villain because they just dont like their favourite character being a bad guy or loser. Primarchs and the Emperor especially because they are pinnacle humanity, and readers cant accept that it really is as simple as Good vs Bad. The Emperor is constantly labelled a benevolent tyrant as an insult rather than a fact, and how withdraw and aloof he wad, rather than recognise the necessity of his actions as part of a greater plan. Likewise, people fail to understand that Magnus single-handedly doomed humanity to an eternity of being prayed on by Daemons like Odyssian sea beasts, while also almost costing the Loyalists the Heresy, and all of it through his own ambitions.
Or it is just that people are accepting the idea that 100% good heroes and 100% bad villians makes for a bad and boring story. People IRL are not 100% good or bad. Even the most "moral" individuals like Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa have done questionable things in their life, and even individuals that we consider the worst of the worst like Adolf Hitler aren't totally evil and depraved in every possible way. Part of what gives nuance and depth to any setting is looking at ways in which the good guys might not always be in the right, and the bad guys being misguided but ultimately having a point or an understandable reason for doing the things that they do.
Manchu wrote: ... the Space Wolves stand out as compassionate and heroic. Like a pizza cutter, speculation that Leman Russ and the Space Wolves somehow betrayed the Emperor at Prospero is all edge and no point.
That is not how this works. You don't get to be the "execution legion" whose reputation for brutality was second only to the World Eaters and be involved in sketchy situations involving unsanctioned exterminatuses and "dissapearing legions/Primarchs", whilst simultaneously claiming to be morally superior to every other legion/group in the setting. The Space Wolves of 40K are a different beast entirely from the Space Wolves of 30K... Largely due to the absence of Russ and the leadership of Logan Grimnar.
Manchu wrote: Furthermore, the story of Propsero - indeed the story of Magnus more generally - is not morally complex. Magnus never even considered obeying the Edict of Nikaea...
This isn't about what Magnus did before Prospero, this is about Prospero and what happened between the Wolves, 1K sons, and the people of Prospero. You can be a total monster and still be wronged by others. Likewise, you can be a good person and have done a terrible thing that you regret immensely.
A Thousand Sons, p535.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.
It was my understanding that Valdor was initially against Russ executing Magnus, but when Russ "committed" and started getting cold feet, Valdor pushed him to finish what he started and not back out.
Proof:
Spoiler:
The early stages of the Prospero campaign were to open a rift between the two champions of the Imperium, ironically due to the iron-clad loyalty of both commanders. For where Russ had concluded that to best serve the Imperium Magnus must die, Valdor would not deviate from the Emperor’s orders to take the Crimson King alive. While Valdor would eventually defer to Russ as the Emperor’s chosen commander of the Censure fleet, relations between the two commanders would remain strained during the fighting on the Thousand Sons’ home world of Prospero.
Tellingly, those of the Remembrancer Order who had accompanied Valdor were dismissed and returned to Terra under Russ' orders long before the fleet departed on the final leg of its journey.
HoundsofDemos wrote: You can feel bad about something even if you didn't think what you did was wrong. Russ mostly came to regret that he was wasting time fighting the thousand sons while Horus and company murdered three legions on Isstavan. He did what he was ordered to do and Magnus was ultimately an arrogant heretic who thought he was the smartest guy in the room when he had basically been played since the beginning
That wasn't the argument being made.
BrianDavion was somehow arguing that the Space Wolves "screw orders we do what we feel is right" streak came from guilt over what happened to the 1K sons at Prospero. I was simply pointing out that it is unlikely that they feel guilt over an incident in which they also believe that they did nothing wrong. The Space Wolves had always had those tendencies, they have just been exacerbated over time with the absence of Russ.
So... TLDR W1zzard, Space Wolves bad, the Heresy didn't have any impact on the Legion at all, and they're an entirely two dimensional group and you're arguing this must be the case because "anything else makes for a boring story"?
riiiight
look, Russ did wrong, he KNOWS it, but he won't ADMIT it, (how many people refuse to publicly admit a mistake to save face? it's common)
So he builds it up under justifications etc, well ensuring that it won't ever happen again, Wolfking and Wolfsbane makes this VERY VERY clear IMHO that Russ puts on a brave front well beating himself up over it, he claims he has no doubts because he has STRONG doubts.
BrianDavion wrote: So... TLDR W1zzard, Space Wolves bad, the Heresy didn't have any impact on the Legion at all, and they're an entirely two dimensional group and you're arguing this must be the case because "anything else makes for a boring story"?
That is not what I am saying, nor have I ever said the Space Wolves were evil. My claims were purely that what happened on Prospero was not as simple as the Wolves wiping out some heretics. That there was ambiguity and the possibility that the Wolves overstepped their mandate to satisfy a vendetta. Even if we want to be as generous as possible and say that Russ was completely and totally tricked by Horus and didn't let his feelings for Magnus cloud his judgement in any way (yeah right), we still have the fact that his actions still could have earned him a spot on the traitors' list regardless of his intent, as has happened to multiple Imperials in the lore when they follow traitorous orders in good faith. This obviously didn't happen, as the Emperor basically pardoned Russ, but it COULD have happened.
BrianDavion wrote: look, Russ did wrong, he KNOWS it, but he won't ADMIT it, (how many people refuse to publicly admit a mistake to save face? it's common) So he builds it up under justifications etc, well ensuring that it won't ever happen again, Wolfking and Wolfsbane makes this VERY VERY clear IMHO that Russ puts on a brave front well beating himself up over it, he claims he has no doubts because he has STRONG doubts.
Now if you had just said this from the beginning I might have agreed with you and left it at that. But this is not what others like Dev and Manchu have been arguing.
Manchu wrote: A pardon is only necessary to set aside a wrong. Without speculating, can you answer the question: What did Russ do wrong?
Either:
A. Colluding with Horus to eliminate the Thousand Sons (very unlikely, but technically possible) to fulfill a personal vendetta.
B. Being manipulated by Horus and allowing his prejudices to spur him towards actions that aided chaos, even disregarding the admonishment of Valdor that what Russ was doing was not what the Emperor wanted.
AND on top of either of those
C. Being needlessly brutal in his persecution of either of the above, killing an entire planet full of loyal Imperial citizens for seemingly no reason. As others have pointed out, that may have been their ultimate fate later on down the line, but that is irrelevant to what happened in the moment.
The FW Horus Herasy book that covered this also clarified that it took a while for Russ to gather the forces needed to head out and arrest Magnus. The journey itself was also not short. Some time during that, Horus spoke with him and changed his orders. Russ was following the chain of command the entire way, and if he believed that the order was wipe out a Legion, then you don't pull punches. People are acting like Russ got his orders from the Emperor and then Horus pulled him aside in the next room. Instead it was more likely that months later Horus changed it up
The Thousand Sons were an especially dangerous legion due to how many pyskers they had. If Russ was ordered to kill them, then no kid gloves kill as many as you can in the opening shot. The Wolves still took causalities even with the huge advantage they had. All of this is on Magnus. He could have,
1. Not disobeyed a direct order and not continued to consort with demons
2. Not wrecked the most important project in the history of humanity
3. Having been an arrogant ass, surrendered peacefully and do his best to fix things and maybe save his kids and planet
4. Not decide at the last minute to double down on heresy and become a servant of Chaos.
(C) is incoherent considering Russ's purported orders.
That leaves us with (B), which is why I said from the beginning of this exchange: w1zard's only real issue is, why didn't the Emperor criticize Russ for being tricked by Horus? The answer is obvious.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The Thousand Sons were an especially dangerous legion due to how many pyskers they had. If Russ was ordered to kill them, then no kid gloves kill as many as you can in the opening shot. The Wolves still took causalities even with the huge advantage they had...
And Russ needed to wipe out all life on Prospero, including purely civilian targets to accomplish this?
HoundsofDemos wrote: 1. Not disobeyed a direct order and not continued to consort with demons
2. Not wrecked the most important project in the history of humanity
3. Having been an arrogant ass, surrendered peacefully and do his best to fix things and maybe save his kids and planet
4. Not decide at the last minute to double down on heresy and become a servant of Chaos.
Again, we aren't talking about Magnus' actions. Magnus did a lot to put himself in that position, but we are talking about Russ' actions on Prospero, not debating whether Magnus deserved it. Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.
But still a possibility as we do not know what Horus said to Russ. I agree that it is unlikely, but it was left ambiguous on purpose.
Manchu wrote: (C) is incoherent considering Russ's purported orders.
Again, see my comment on why needing to wipe out all life on the planet, civilian or otherwise was completely unnecessary... even if his orders were to kill Magnus and purge the 1K sons.
Manchu wrote: That leaves us with (B), which is why I said from the beginning of this exchange: w1zard's only real issue is, why didn't the Emperor criticize Russ for being tricked by Horus? The answer is obvious.
The answer is not obvious when Valdor told Russ repeatedly that the Emperor did not want this, and only went along with it in the end because Russ put his foot down. The answer is also not obvious because Russ blew an entire planet of innocent Imperial citizens out of the sky because they happened to be in his way... or are you arguing that every man, woman, and child on Prospero was a hostile combatant? This seems completely at odds with your statements about the Space Wolves being the "most moral and heroic" out of all of the legions.
You can speculate that Russ betrayed the Emperor. But there is no foundation for that theory whatsoever. Rather, there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. For example, your very question is why Russ didn't get censured by the Emperor afterward. Of course, it would make sense that Russ would not be censured if he acted in good faith loyalty to the Emperor and the Imperium. The only way we ever get to this alleged "unlikely possibility" is if you willfully disregard everything that clearly weighs against you and frame the question as an implicit accusation. This is what's called a conspiracy theory.
Wiping a Primarch and his Legion from history is a grave matter compared to which the exterminatus sanction is a minor issue. The destruction of Propsero, and all of its Warp-tainted culture, is pretty reasonably a facet of utterly destroying the XVth Legion.
It is obvious why the Emperor could not censure Russ for being tricked by Horus: everyone, every single subject of the Emperor and even the Emperor himself, was deceived by Horus at some point. Horus's deception is the raison d'être of the series of stories itself, hence its very name: The Horus Heresy. Furthermore, let's not forget that Magnus's warning had the reverse of the intended effect: the Emperor and Russ not only took the warning as proof that Magnus had turned traitor but it only deepened their trust in Horus.
A Thousand Sons, p535.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.
It was my understanding that Valdor was initially against Russ executing Magnus, but when Russ "committed" and started getting cold feet, Valdor pushed him to finish what he started and not back out.
Proof:
Spoiler:
The early stages of the Prospero campaign were to open a rift between the two champions of the Imperium, ironically due to the iron-clad loyalty of both commanders. For where Russ had concluded that to best serve the Imperium Magnus must die, Valdor would not deviate from the Emperor’s orders to take the Crimson King alive. While Valdor would eventually defer to Russ as the Emperor’s chosen commander of the Censure fleet, relations between the two commanders would remain strained during the fighting on the Thousand Sons’ home world of Prospero.
Tellingly, those of the Remembrancer Order who had accompanied Valdor were dismissed and returned to Terra under Russ' orders long before the fleet departed on the final leg of its journey.
But still a possibility as we do not know what Horus said to Russ. I agree that it is unlikely, but it was left ambiguous on purpose.
We don't know what was exactly said no, but from Horus own lips we know that he said enough to convince Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra was a waste of time.
But note that the redditor in question quotes the source for what he wants it to say rather than what it says. None of the cited passages actually support the conclusion that Russ betrayed the Emperor, as claimed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pilau Rice wrote: We don't know what was exactly said no, but from Horus own lips we know that he said enough to convince Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra was a waste of time.
Sure, I don't doubt that Horus convinced Russ that Magnus should die. I don't see Horus gloating, however, that he convinced Russ to disobey or otherwise betray the Emperor.
HoundsofDemos wrote: The Thousand Sons were an especially dangerous legion due to how many pyskers they had. If Russ was ordered to kill them, then no kid gloves kill as many as you can in the opening shot. The Wolves still took causalities even with the huge advantage they had...
And Russ needed to wipe out all life on Prospero, including purely civilian targets to accomplish this?
Yes, in keeping with the Edict of Nikaea "I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light."
HoundsofDemos wrote: 1. Not disobeyed a direct order and not continued to consort with demons
2. Not wrecked the most important project in the history of humanity
3. Having been an arrogant ass, surrendered peacefully and do his best to fix things and maybe save his kids and planet
4. Not decide at the last minute to double down on heresy and become a servant of Chaos.
Again, we aren't talking about Magnus' actions. Magnus did a lot to put himself in that position, but we are talking about Russ' actions on Prospero, not debating whether Magnus deserved it. Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.
But still a possibility as we do not know what Horus said to Russ. I agree that it is unlikely, but it was left ambiguous on purpose.
Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.
Manchu wrote: (C) is incoherent considering Russ's purported orders.
Again, see my comment on why needing to wipe out all life on the planet, civilian or otherwise was completely unnecessary... even if his orders were to kill Magnus and purge the 1K sons.
It was not to kill Magnus and the XV. Again, and I quote ""I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light." The entire population of Prospero were followers of Magnus, with many of the higher echelons being turned into Pseudo-Marines following the Emperor's arrival and those who werent going on to lead the infrastructure of the world. The thing about Primarchs is that they are essentially monarchs of their homeworld (or region in Guilliman's case). They are ruler, leader, head of state. Everyone is under their rule on that world.
Manchu wrote: That leaves us with (B), which is why I said from the beginning of this exchange: w1zard's only real issue is, why didn't the Emperor criticize Russ for being tricked by Horus? The answer is obvious.
The answer is not obvious when Valdor told Russ repeatedly that the Emperor did not want this, and only went along with it in the end because Russ put his foot down. The answer is also not obvious because Russ blew an entire planet of innocent Imperial citizens out of the sky because they happened to be in his way... or are you arguing that every man, woman, and child on Prospero was a hostile combatant? This seems completely at odds with your statements about the Space Wolves being the "most moral and heroic" out of all of the legions.
There are no innocents who consort with traitors. Every man, woman and child on Prospero WAS a hostile combatant, because each was potentially a dangerous psyker and each was marked for death under the Edict. The Wolves were however moral and heroic. Moral is a subjective term. You apply moral to mean "don't kill people and follow 21st Century morals." Morals in 40k means "kill the fething witch and burn the body twice to make double sure he's really fething dead." The Wolves protect the citizens of the Imperium as best they can and would never think of sitting back and letting someone else fight their battles. They dive in, head first no questions asked. But the Allfather decreed the death of Prospero and the Wolves follow the Allfather
Pilau Rice wrote: We don't know what was exactly said no, but from Horus own lips we know that he said enough to convince Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra was a waste of time.
Sure, I don't doubt that Horus convinced Russ that Magnus should die. I don't see Horus gloating, however, that he convinced Russ to disobey or otherwise betray the Emperor.
Sorry Manchu, not following you here. Are you referring to the quote from False Gods? You'll have to blame the author for that
What I mean is, Horus was bragging in that scene. But he as not able to flat-out brag that Russ would act in disobedience to the Emperor. All I get from that scene is confirmation that Horus intervened such that Russ understood his orders were no longer "bring Magnus back to die on Terra" but were now "destroy Magnus, the XVth Legion, and Prospero." Even so, Magnus was not so angry as Horus brags; he still wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender.
Deadshot wrote: Yes, in keeping with the Edict of Nikaea "I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light."
Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.
Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.
But not for the Executioner.
It is if the executioner decides someone should get executed ahead of schedule, or executed in a non-condoned way.
Deadshot wrote: Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.
It is completely relevant if Horus didn't order Russ and instead convinced him to disobey the Emperor.
Deadshot wrote: There are no innocents who consort with traitors. Every man, woman and child on Prospero WAS a hostile combatant, because each was potentially a dangerous psyker and each was marked for death under the Edict.
Every person on Prospero was "consorting" with Magnus? Every man woman and child was a hostile combatant on Prospero? I am having trouble taking you seriously with these arguments because they are laughable.
The edict at Nikaea didn't proscribe death for all psykers, let alone non-psykers who happen to exist on a planet that happens to have a large percentage of psykers.
Deadshot wrote: But the Allfather decreed the death of Prospero and the Wolves follow the Allfather
Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.
But they weren't supposed to be purged, at least not yet... that has been my point. All that was supposed to happen is Magnus being arrested.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.
But they weren't supposed to be purged, at least not yet... that has been my point. All that was supposed to happen is Magnus being arrested.
Then months later, on the way to take him alive, Horus and Russ had words and again ( something that every one crapping on Russ) seem to ignore is that way out of range of Terra, Horus spoke to Russ and gave him a different mission. Russ has fought another legion before and knows that if that order came down don't take chances. He tried to teach Angron a lesson and that cost him more of his than Angron's. He might have had to purge a full legion or killed a brother before. He was never going to take a chance if it came to killing Magnus
HoundsofDemos wrote: Considering that the few remaining home worlds of the traitor legions were purged either during or after the heresy, yes it sucks that a lot of otherwise innocent people got killed but that seems to be the standard when a legion is being purged. If Magnus and the Thousand Sons were to be purged then the home world was gonna get burned as well.
But they weren't supposed to be purged, at least not yet... that has been my point. All that was supposed to happen is Magnus being arrested.
But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.
The most you can say about the communication between Horus and Russ, if you insist on speculating (without supporting evidence) that Horus did NOT outright tell Russ that the Emperor changed his orders, is that Horus could have told Russ that Magnus was on the verge of committing another violation of the Edict that would be even more disastrous than what Magnus had already done - basically putting Russ into a position where if he did not outright destroy Magnus, the Emperor would be assassinated/Terra would be overwhelmed by daemons/etc.
Deadshot wrote: Yes, in keeping with the Edict of Nikaea "I will visit destruction upon them and all their followers so that they will rue the day they turned from my light."
Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.
Yes, because Russ is the Wolf King of Fenris. Magnus was the Crimson King or Sorcerer-King. King implies Kingdom. That kingdom was Prospero.
Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.
But not for the Executioner.
It is if the executioner decides someone should get executed ahead of schedule, or executed in a non-condoned way.
The executioner didn't, his superior did. End of discussion. There isn't an argument to make that Russ decided all on his own that this was how things were going to go. Unless you are implying that Russ would have sacked the planet regardless of Horus' intervention? Which would make you more mad than Angron.
Deadshot wrote: Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.
It is completely relevant if Horus didn't order Russ and instead convinced him to disobey the Emperor.
Regardless of whether Horus made a suggestion or ordered, Russ was not disobeying. The consequences for consorting with the Warp were already laid out by the Emperor in public. It'd be like POTUS declaring martial law, saying any brown-skinned person seen after dark will be shot on sight, then throwing a soldier in jail for following that command.
Horus didn't need to convince Russ to disobey the Emperor, and couldn't, Russ is surpremely loyal. Let's not forget that Russ was the 2nd primarch found after Horus. He had the most amount of time with the Emperor besides Horus. He was humbled by and the Emperor earned his respect. He swore fealty to the Emperor, and if Russ' Fenrisian culture is as closely linked to viking culture as it appears, that's a big deal. TDLR: Horus had no chance of convincing Russ to disobey.
He did however, manage to convince Russ that the Emperor had changed the order. Which is valid. There was nothing to suggest that Russ had any reason to doubt or disbelieve Horus, and to ignore Horus WOULD be in direct violation of a direct order directly from the Emperor himself. We've been over this many times. Russ was completely right to follow the new orders.
Deadshot wrote: There are no innocents who consort with traitors. Every man, woman and child on Prospero WAS a hostile combatant, because each was potentially a dangerous psyker and each was marked for death under the Edict.
Every person on Prospero was "consorting" with Magnus? Every man woman and child was a hostile combatant on Prospero? I am having trouble taking you seriously with these arguments because they are laughable.
The edict at Nikaea didn't proscribe death for all psykers, let alone non-psykers who happen to exist on a planet that happens to have a large percentage of psykers.
Yes because A) They were followers of Magnus, their planetary governor, and the Emperor decreed destruction for, and again, I quote "their followers." That includes the inhabitants of Prospero. That was the deterant from the Emperor. "I'll destroy not only you, but also all your sons, your friends and every other person on your planet. Don't test my patience."
I'm having trouble taking you seriously as you continually run in circles with the same arguments which have been shot down again and again. You keep repeating the same allegations against Russ, that he is a traitor, based on arguments that don't hold water.
Deadshot wrote: But the Allfather decreed the death of Prospero and the Wolves follow the Allfather
The Emperor did not decree the death of Prospero.
As far as Russ knew, he did, and as said, he had absolutely every reason to sack Prospero. There are literally 5 reasons why he should and 1 shaky reason that he shouldnt, and that 1 reason relies on having a 3rd-person omniscient hindsight of the events of the moment to know that Horus was evil. Just because you watch the Prequel movie, be it Star Wars, the Hobbit, Fantastic Beasts or Prometheus, doesn't mean you should be screaming stuff about Darth Vader, the One Ring, Voldemort or the Xenomorph to the characters. The Horus Heresy is a prequel. You know the outcome because your starting point is in the future. Russ didn't have the information you have, he had an order from a superior officer who was besties with the King, who says the King said this. Not only this, but everyone KNOWS that the officer is the most trustworthy stand up guy in the world.
Better yet - your older brother, clearly your dad's favourite, says that dad said to take out the trash. Do you refuse to take out the trash because dad didn't tell you himself? No. You take out the trash. And Russ took out the trash.
Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.
Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ
That is not true. Villagers on Fenris talk about the "sky warriors" and how they go fight amongst the stars in the Allfather's name, but most have never even seen a Space Marine let alone the The Fang. They have their own village leaders and fight amongst themselves.
Scott-S6 wrote: But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.
True, but again, it was not Russ place to jump the gun like that. The penalty for murder is the death penalty in some states... that doesn't mean the executioner can round up people accused or convicted of murder and start putting them to death. As far as I know, the Emperor did not give standing orders to Russ to enforce the edict whenever he saw fit.
Deadshot wrote: Yes, because Russ is the Wolf King of Fenris. Magnus was the Crimson King or Sorcerer-King. King implies Kingdom. That kingdom was Prospero.
Most people on Fenris have never seen a Space wolf, let alone Russ, or have been anywhere near the fang. Nor do they acknowledge Russ as their leader. I would assume the same is true of Prospero. Regardless, this is a moot point as Russ did not have the authority to enforce the edict anyway.
Murdering a man on death row who has committed horrible crimes is still murder.
But not for the Executioner.
It is if the executioner decides someone should get executed ahead of schedule, or executed in a non-condoned way.
The executioner didn't, his superior did. End of discussion. There isn't an argument to make that Russ decided all on his own that this was how things were going to go.
We don't know what Horus said to Russ. Russ originally planned on arresting Magnus, but Horus stepped in and said SOMETHING to Russ. This caused Russ to change his mind and go to kill Magnus and wipe out his planet. Valdor even spoke up and warned Russ that it wasn't what the Emperor wanted and Russ ignored him. I don't know what more evidence you want that Russ either... A) colluded with Horus to wipe out the Thousand Sons, or B) was tricked by Horus, but privately agreed with Horus so much that he willfully ignored Valdor and all of his better instincts to see the destruction through. Either way that is not a good thing for Russ.
Deadshot wrote: Irrelevant what he said. Chain of command says Horus is in charge and has the authority.
It is completely relevant if Horus didn't order Russ and instead convinced him to disobey the Emperor.
Regardless of whether Horus made a suggestion or ordered, Russ was not disobeying. The consequences for consorting with the Warp were already laid out by the Emperor in public. It'd be like POTUS declaring martial law, saying any brown-skinned person seen after dark will be shot on sight, then throwing a soldier in jail for following that command.
No, if you want to continue with that Crass analogy it would be after dark means "the death penalty" and then having said soldier shoot on sight. The "the death penalty" does not mean whoever happens to think they broke the law can just waltz over and blow them up without a trial, and without the Emperor's judgement. Russ was certainly executioner, but not judge and jury, that was the Emperor's job, and he wanted Magnus on Terra so he could judge him.
Deadshot wrote: He did however, manage to convince Russ that the Emperor had changed the order. Which is valid. There was nothing to suggest that Russ had any reason to doubt or disbelieve Horus, and to ignore Horus WOULD be in direct violation of a direct order directly from the Emperor himself. We've been over this many times. Russ was completely right to follow the new orders.
We don't lnow what Horus said to Russ so this is complete speculation.
Deadshot wrote: You keep repeating the same allegations against Russ, that he is a traitor, based on arguments that don't hold water.
I never said Russ was a traitor. I said it was one possibility, along with the far more likely possibility that he simply overstepped his authority and that it could have gotten him in a lot of trouble. It is not my problem if you see any criticism of Russ as "he's a traitor".
Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.
Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ
That is not true. Villagers on Fenris talk about the "sky warriors" and how they go fight amongst the stars in the Allfather's name, but most have never even seen a Space Marine let alone the The Fang. They have their own village leaders and fight amongst themselves.
Scott-S6 wrote: But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.
True, but again, it was not Russ place to jump the gun like that. The penalty for murder is the death penalty in some states... that doesn't mean the executioner can round up people accused or convicted of murder and start putting them to death. As far as I know, the Emperor did not give standing orders to Russ to enforce the edict whenever he saw fit.
Still follow Russ though.
But if an executioner is given the order to round up and kill some people they can. Which is what happened.
Every civilian on Prospero is no more a follower of Magnus than every civillian on Fenris is a follower of Russ.
Everyone on Fenris IS a follower of Russ
That is not true. Villagers on Fenris talk about the "sky warriors" and how they go fight amongst the stars in the Allfather's name, but most have never even seen a Space Marine let alone the The Fang. They have their own village leaders and fight amongst themselves.
Scott-S6 wrote: But then Russ gets told exactly what magnus had been up to and he is well aware of the emperor's orders concerning what was to happen if someone were to do precisely that.
True, but again, it was not Russ place to jump the gun like that. The penalty for murder is the death penalty in some states... that doesn't mean the executioner can round up people accused or convicted of murder and start putting them to death.
Russ is the ruler of Fenris, the people on Fenris follow him, in fact he's basicly even in by the time of Prosperio likely seen as a god. we know byu M 41 he certainly is.
From HH B7 Inferno:
Through these men and women he adapted
the ancient superstitions and sagas ofFenris
to accept him and his Legion as something
of preternatural power and holy purpose. To
the people ofFenris, the Fang itselfbecame
equated to the hall of the gods and immortals, the Legionaries of the VI'h the warriors of
the skies, and there was no greater honour
than to be chosen to join their ranks and
sail the void of night as a champion in the
service of the 'A!lfather'-the Emperor
cast as the godlike father of humanity, and
Leman Russ, His favoured son and strong
right hand
So if Russ was eliminated Fenris would HAVE to be destroyed.
Just about every primarch with a few notable exceptions (Pertabo and Konrad Cruz are the only examples I can think of) pretty much completely dominated their worlds. and basicly shaped them into what they are. There is a reason the homeworld of every traitor legion was destroyed.
pm713 wrote: We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.
Because it could be any number of possibilities.
A). Horus convincing Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra alive is too dangerous and that he would be better off dead.
B). Horus convincing Russ that Magnus was about to break the edict again in a worse way and that killing him was the only way to stop him.
C.) Horus telling Russ the depths of which Magnus broke the edict (the truth) and Russ was so angry he said "feth it I'm going to kill him".
... or any number of scenarios you care to think of. Even if Horus said to Russ "The emperor orders you to do this", Valdor was telling Russ (at least initially) that in no uncertain terms this is not what the Emperor wanted. Russ ignored him.
BrianDavion wrote: *snip*
So if Russ was eliminated Fenris would HAVE to be destroyed.
Just about every primarch with a few notable exceptions (Pertabo and Konrad Cruz are the only examples I can think of) pretty much completely dominated their worlds. and basicly shaped them into what they are. There is a reason the homeworld of every traitor legion was destroyed.
Fair enough, point conceded.
I always thought the Traitor homeworlds were destroyed to ensure every trace of heresy was removed, and to spite the traitors, rather than a general "this is standard procedure" kind of thing.
pm713 wrote: We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.
Because it could be any number of possibilities.
A). Horus convincing Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra alive is too dangerous and that he would be better off dead.
B). Horus convincing Russ that Magnus was about to break the edict again in a worse way and that killing him was the only way to stop him.
C.) Horus telling Russ the depths of which Magnus broke the edict (the truth) and Russ was so angry he said "feth it I'm going to kill him".
... or any number of scenarios you care to think of. Even if Horus said to Russ "The emperor orders you to do this", Valdor was telling Russ (at least initially) that in no uncertain terms this is not what the Emperor wanted. Russ ignored him.
It doesn't matter what Valdor says though. Horus was the Warmaster and ordered Magnus gone for whatever reason. Horus had the authority to do that.
pm713 wrote: It doesn't matter what Valdor says though. Horus was the Warmaster and ordered Magnus gone for whatever reason. Horus had the authority to do that.
Horus derived his authority from the Emperor. If the Emperor's official ambassador and chief bodyguard is saying that this is not what the Emperor wanted, and your new orders are in conflict with the original ones that were given to you directly by the Emperor... it would be wise to at least consider things.
pm713 wrote: It doesn't matter what Valdor says though. Horus was the Warmaster and ordered Magnus gone for whatever reason. Horus had the authority to do that.
Horus derived his authority from the Emperor. If the Emperor's official ambassador and chief bodyguard is saying that this is not what the Emperor wanted, and your new orders are in conflict with the original ones that were given to you directly by the Emperor... it would be wise to at least consider things.
Bodyguards are there to stop people getting stabbed not dictate policy or military action. Valdor has 0 official bearing. Horus was the commander of the entire military and had the Emperor's authority to do whatever he wanted with military actions. If Horus is saying that things changed and Magnus needs to die and Valdor disagrees then you can follow orders and kill him or go rogue and ignore them with Valdor.
Imagine if Magnus and the XVth were wiped out but Prospero and its Warp-tainted culture of sorcerers was not. Prospero would easily become the anchor of a multi-system rebellion.
Manchu wrote: Imagine if Magnus and the XVth were wiped out but Prospero and its Warp-tainted culture of sorcerers was not. Prospero would easily become the anchor of a multi-system rebellion.
Exactly, most Primarchs are emblemantic of the culture of their homeworld, they shape it and it shapes them, if a Primarch goes bad, the entire planet likely can be counted on to go bad
Manchu wrote: As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.
C’mon Manchu, that’s not what he’s saying at all. He’s saying Russ had orders to bring Magnus back, and they were changed by Horus; Russ, having been an executioner twice, had no objections to new orders to butcher his brother who he already heavily disliked. It’s not collusion, it’s preference for the new orders and rolling with them. And Horus expected that would happen. You know the difference between collusion and Horus playing Russ like a guitar.
Manchu wrote: As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.
C’mon Manchu, that’s not what he’s saying at all. He’s saying Russ had orders to bring Magnus back, and they were changed by Horus; Russ, having been an executioner twice, had no objections to new orders to butcher his brother who he already heavily disliked. It’s not collusion, it’s preference for the new orders and rolling with them. And Horus expected that would happen. You know the difference between collusion and Horus playing Russ like a guitar.
This is partially a chicken vs egg argument though. We know that Russ's legion was the only one to have explicitly fought at least one other legion prior to the heresy and possibly as many as three, with strong circumstantial evidence that his Legion purged one. The Emperor wanted Magnus alive but his choice of sending Russ underscores that he knew if things went side ways, he picked the general that would pull the trigger with no hesitation. Horus likely didn't need to do much to get Russ to go from try to take him alive to purge them all, but either way Russ was doing his appointed job. He as the second primarch found and the one who the Emperor trusted to be the fixer. With that mindset, why would he question Horus?
pm713 wrote: We know Horus got him to kill Magnus and while we don't know the exact how it's not hard to see the order being given by him.
Because it could be any number of possibilities.
A). Horus convincing Russ that taking Magnus back to Terra alive is too dangerous and that he would be better off dead.
B). Horus convincing Russ that Magnus was about to break the edict again in a worse way and that killing him was the only way to stop him.
C.) Horus telling Russ the depths of which Magnus broke the edict (the truth) and Russ was so angry he said "feth it I'm going to kill him".
... or any number of scenarios you care to think of. Even if Horus said to Russ "The emperor orders you to do this", Valdor was telling Russ (at least initially) that in no uncertain terms this is not what the Emperor wanted. Russ ignored him.
BrianDavion wrote: *snip*
So if Russ was eliminated Fenris would HAVE to be destroyed.
Just about every primarch with a few notable exceptions (Pertabo and Konrad Cruz are the only examples I can think of) pretty much completely dominated their worlds. and basicly shaped them into what they are. There is a reason the homeworld of every traitor legion was destroyed.
Fair enough, point conceded.
I always thought the Traitor homeworlds were destroyed to ensure every trace of heresy was removed, and to spite the traitors, rather than a general "this is standard procedure" kind of thing.
We dont need to know what exactly Horus said because we know what he NEEDED to say was "The Emperor told me to tell you that he changed his mind and to kill Magnus instead of bringing him to Terra." That's it. Game over. No ifs, no buts, no questions asked. Nothing else needs said.
On the subject of differences in warp use and control we actually see some pretty good examples in Ashes of Prospero.
Njal Stormcaller allows a Thousand Son temporary control of his body and notes the difference, Njal - the most gifted Psyker the Space Wolves have ever had delicately carves a piece off the stream. The Thousand Sons Libby takes the whole stream and flexes it.
Even if the 1k Sons psyker is the second best Psyker after Magnus that is a massive leap in warp knowledge so much so that they are hardly comparable.
Njal isn’t just the best of backward savages, he is even acknowledged by proper Librarius Psyker for his knowledge and skills in the Librarius disciplines.
Magnus and his boys were beyond even what current Librarius Psykers can grasp.
Dakka Wolf wrote: On the subject of differences in warp use and control we actually see some pretty good examples in Ashes of Prospero.
Njal Stormcaller allows a Thousand Son temporary control of his body and notes the difference, Njal - the most gifted Psyker the Space Wolves have ever had delicately carves a piece off the stream. The Thousand Sons Libby takes the whole stream and flexes it.
Even if the 1k Sons psyker is the second best Psyker after Magnus that is a massive leap in warp knowledge so much so that they are hardly comparable.
Njal isn’t just the best of backward savages, he is even acknowledged by proper Librarius Psyker for his knowledge and skills in the Librarius disciplines.
Magnus and his boys were beyond even what current Librarius Psykers can grasp.
agreed. even if we accept that knowledge since the heresy has been lost and that Njal isn't on par with any of the big name heresy era psykers, what we see is an entirely differant APPROUCH to using psykic powers. a differant..... school if you will
Dakka Wolf wrote: On the subject of differences in warp use and control we actually see some pretty good examples in Ashes of Prospero.
Njal Stormcaller allows a Thousand Son temporary control of his body and notes the difference, Njal - the most gifted Psyker the Space Wolves have ever had delicately carves a piece off the stream. The Thousand Sons Libby takes the whole stream and flexes it.
Even if the 1k Sons psyker is the second best Psyker after Magnus that is a massive leap in warp knowledge so much so that they are hardly comparable.
Njal isn’t just the best of backward savages, he is even acknowledged by proper Librarius Psyker for his knowledge and skills in the Librarius disciplines.
Magnus and his boys were beyond even what current Librarius Psykers can grasp.
agreed. even if we accept that knowledge since the heresy has been lost and that Njal isn't on par with any of the big name heresy era psykers, what we see is an entirely differant APPROUCH to using psykic powers. a differant..... school if you will
I think it's more they have different approaches than being a matter of power. The Thousand Sons were all about rediscovering knowledge and study whereas by 40k everyone in the librarius is more smash the enemy to pieces.
So at delicate things the Thousand Sons are better but if you wanted to kill a whole demon horde you want Njal.
