But where do you get that impression? I've never seen anything saying that ll the armour of a Howling Banshee would be female regardless of its occupant.
Jain Zar is a chick. As a PL and a founder of the aspect, she is an exception, not the rule in this regard.
I always assumed banshees were all female back in the day because Jain zar is a female so her techniques would be suited to the female frame/voice. The fact that some of them are dudes or that some of the guardians are now chicks shouldn't really matter.
I do find it a bit weird that a dying race which is slow at reproducing would let their females go on the front lines but hey...
witchdoctor_painting
Why does the male exarch have breasts?
warhammerofficial
@witchdoctor_painting that would be the armour - all Howling Banshee armour is feminine as they are embodying the banshees of aeldari myth.
The banshees of aeldari mythology are female and those warriors that embody that aspect are clad in armour reminiscent of that. Similarly, the Striking Scorpions whilst a predominantly male aspect do number female aeldari amongst their number.
witchdoctor_painting
Why does the male exarch have breasts?
warhammerofficial
@witchdoctor_painting that would be the armour - all Howling Banshee armour is feminine as they are embodying the banshees of aeldari myth.
The banshees of aeldari mythology are female and those warriors that embody that aspect are clad in armour reminiscent of that. Similarly, the Striking Scorpions whilst a predominantly male aspect do number female aeldari amongst their number.
Please read Path of the Warrior. It explains quite well the "link" between the physical helmet/armour and the psychological War Mask. Most Aspects do indeed use the donning and removal of their helmet as a physical gesture to help the "don and remove" their War Mask.
No one is arguing that the helmet isn't important (or at least they shouldn't be arguing that), but what should be important to note is that the helmet is not MANDATORY for this.
In fact, in Path of the Warrior the protagonist realized he was trapped on the Path after his first battle because he was unable to remove his War Mask, despite having removed his actual helmet. At that point, he sought out an abandoned Shrine with an empty Warsuit that he donned and officially became an Exarch
Galef, I've read Path of the Warrior and all other Thorpe water before it was... actually it never was cool.
GW right there state you the importance of helmets and use it as a symbol for Ynnari to walk different path. You can tell them they're wrong if you have instagram account.
It's probably wishful thinking for me to think this is the end of the 'squad leader sergeant Exarch' nonsense that's been in the game since 3rd edition.
GW right there state you the importance of helmets and use it as a symbol for Ynnari to walk different path. You can tell them they're wrong if you have instagram account.
Who wants to tell the troll how often GW community folks get things wrong?
Daba wrote: It's probably wishful thinking for me to think this is the end of the 'squad leader sergeant Exarch' nonsense that's been in the game since 3rd edition.
Yes it is. We will have squad leaders with more customization than our HQs and we will like it.
Daba wrote: It's probably wishful thinking for me to think this is the end of the 'squad leader sergeant Exarch' nonsense that's been in the game since 3rd edition.
Yes it is. We will have squad leaders with more customization than our HQs and we will like it.
Man we'll take it up the rear and like it if it means new plastic kits for eldars
You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright. Granted haven't assembled any DA in a while. Maybe I'm just remembering that because its plastic..
Argive wrote: I do find it a bit weird that a dying race which is slow at reproducing would let their females go on the front lines but hey...
The same argument can be made for why allowing males to go in the battlefield (provided that Eldars gender ratio is identical to that of humans so roughly 50/50). Plus, as a situation becomes more desperate pretty much everybody will fight no matter age, gender or social status. In fact, in such situation, gender is usually the first barrier to be removed provided it was a barrier in the first place.
From why I read, no Aspect Warrior cult is strictly mono-gender. Banshee were mentionned as being predominantly female. I assumed that GW produced a female model to represent the fact that pretty much all of them were women. I didn't expect male Banshee to have the infamous "boob-plate" and that it was just a shortcut for production a bit like all models of the same unit have the same size en mensuration and, more importantly, the same face. This is especially true for older models where everybody is rigorously identical while newer model at least make the effort of switching haircut from one head to the other. While I like the new models for Banshees and Exarchs, GW faces always look bad to me and that's no exception, but it's not as bad as other. Also, am I the only one who finds the idea of a helmetless Banshee a bit dumb considering they need the voice-caster of the helmet to actually cause harm? The helmetless Exarch seems to have little ones beneath his neck, but they look puny and less powerful then the oversized one's of the helmeted Exarch and normal Banshee. In terms of esthetic, I think the smaller ones look better, but they make less sense.
Also, is it me or does it seems like Exarch might be moved from a squad leader to a mini-HQ position where they can move independantly, be taken seperately and maybe have a small buff zone for the Aspect Warrior of the same shrine. The posing and extansive base makes me think the new Exarch will be sold seperately from the rest of the squad.
Argive wrote: I do find it a bit weird that a dying race which is slow at reproducing would let their females go on the front lines but hey...
The same argument can be made for why allowing males to go in the battlefield (provided that Eldars gender ratio is identical to that of humans so roughly 50/50). Plus, as a situation becomes more desperate pretty much everybody will fight no matter age, gender or social status. In fact, in such situation, gender is usually the first barrier to be removed provided it was a barrier in the first place.
From why I read, no Aspect Warrior cult is strictly mono-gender. Banshee were mentionned as being predominantly female. I assumed that GW produced a female model to represent the fact that pretty much all of them were women. I didn't expect male Banshee to have the infamous "boob-plate" and that it was just a shortcut for production a bit like all models of the same unit have the same size en mensuration and, more importantly, the same face. This is especially true for older models where everybody is rigorously identical while newer model at least make the effort of switching haircut from one head to the other. While I like the new models for Banshees and Exarchs, GW faces always look bad to me and that's no exception, but it's not as bad as other. Also, am I the only one who finds the idea of a helmetless Banshee a bit dumb considering they need the voice-caster of the helmet to actually cause harm? The helmetless Exarch seems to have little ones beneath his neck, but they look puny and less powerful then the oversized one's of the helmeted Exarch and normal Banshee. In terms of esthetic, I think the smaller ones look better, but they make less sense.
Also, is it me or does it seems like Exarch might be moved from a squad leader to a mini-HQ position where they can move independantly, be taken seperately and maybe have a small buff zone for the Aspect Warrior of the same shrine. The posing and extansive base makes me think the new Exarch will be sold seperately from the rest of the squad.
I think the helmetless option is silly because its helmetless.. the argument of "but the forcefield protects" seems a bit naff to me because.. if you got forcefields why do you need any armour bruh ?? But then the entire concept of 40K collapses if you apply that kind of logic so I can live with it lol. I think those amplifiers/speakers actually do a decent job of looking the part. Luckily there is a helmeted option so I will just be using that and not get bothered by it.
I do think that the exarch will get some cool rules but they wont gain the character status. Because, why would you ever take normal banshees... I could see it if they make the banshees a lot more bad ass with extra wounds and attacks and STR. Ultimately it wont matter as they will die to lasgun fire or getting punched in the face by a million attacks from mere intercessors so that exarch powers wont last more than one turn. But you never know. Anything could happen!
You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright. Granted haven't assembled any DA in a while. Maybe I'm just remembering that because its plastic..
Just compare component count from the intercessor kit to the avenger one (double the latter As they only come as 5 man sprues).
Argive wrote: You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright
Most of the things on it are not even used. What's the point of 2 melee options? I don't remember an edition where those were practical.
Conversions? Are you saying the bits you get left over are not useful? They usually never are for any kit hence they are bits leftover... If you are saying DA should get more load out options as a squad I'm all for it brother, but as they currently are I don't see what more they need on the sprues..(Apart from being a 10 man squad again)
You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright. Granted haven't assembled any DA in a while. Maybe I'm just remembering that because its plastic..
Just compare component count from the intercessor kit to the avenger one (double the latter As they only come as 5 man sprues).
I'd love to have even a tenth the bits box capacity for Eldar as marines get
I get it. But at the same time I'm glad don't have to glue scopes to shuriken cats and glue two chest pieces together then a backpack then shoulder pads then glue the shins to the legs then the legs to the torsos. But also it means that if I want my DA kneeling down I'm a bit stuck. But, if you look at the Wraith kit there is a ton of spare bits. (unless you mad and magnetize like me)
I'm not going to pretend spesh marheens/IOM don't get much more of everything then everyone else... Because they do, and it sucks. Its how it is.. Yes, we have to be content with a helmetless exarch... But he's plastic so its an infinitely better situation than a month ago. No point in getting annoyed at GW not going far enough, it will never end and they can always go further.
Plus we don't even know what the kit and we might be surprised (But im not holding my breath)
You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright. Granted haven't assembled any DA in a while. Maybe I'm just remembering that because its plastic..
Just compare component count from the intercessor kit to the avenger one (double the latter As they only come as 5 man sprues).
I'd love to have even a tenth the bits box capacity for Eldar as marines get
The avenger sprue is what almost 20 years old at this point made back when they where first experimenting with the plastic of course its sparse of parts compared to modern sprue
You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright. Granted haven't assembled any DA in a while. Maybe I'm just remembering that because its plastic..
Just compare component count from the intercessor kit to the avenger one (double the latter As they only come as 5 man sprues).
I'd love to have even a tenth the bits box capacity for Eldar as marines get
The avenger sprue is what almost 20 years old at this point made back when they where first experimenting with the plastic of course its sparse of parts compared to modern sprue
2006, so 13 years.
I'd love the banshees to have extra bits just because of how sparse that eldar bits can be. I know it's futile to compare to marines, but it's a massively different experience where you can practically build marines out of your bits box. I'd say that surely there must be more than just the one bare head, because it seems a bit odd that the only head they give you in the mostly-female aspect has been identified as a male. As has been suggested, I wouldn't be surprised if they showed off the male head just to generate a bit of discussion.
Part of the problem is that we dont have options. All our kits are mono static because the units dont have options. Its a shame the autarch options got removed as that was pretty much the only thing we could kit bash. And realy there is very little we can convert. (Within mono CWE range) Now even thats getting taken away. But there is potential, the wraithguard kit being a prime example of an awesome update and whats possible.
A new guardian kit with options to make storm guardian or normi guardians would be mint. Vant have it all so I will be extremely happy with plastic aspects for now and hope its not just banshees!
Multiquoting is still confusing to me, so forgive my short cutting.
Someone said we're stuck with bare heads.
We aren't. Don't like them? Don't use them.
Do we have to except that they exist? Yep. I say the same thing about Primaris, and all the other things that many people here get upset about.
Next, somebody said the head has been identified as male. That isn't technically true either.
Someone on Dakka said they thought the head looked male; enough people agree that it became a thing. I don't think GW said it was male. I personally don't think they intended it to be. I think they just emphasized warrior elements of the face to the point where it didn't match with many people's preconceived notions of femininity.
That said, if you like to think of it as a male wearing female armour, I support your right to think that. If you want to think of it as a woman who just doesn't have features that fit a narrow interpretation of what feminine means, I support your right to think that too.
Because I'm not really invested in changing how you play or think. I chose to see a woman who has lived through so much horror and war that she doesn't really care whether or not I think she's pretty; I see a woman who will tear my arms off or cut me into tiny pieces if I give her a rough time about what she looks like.
And I think she's a perfect fit for a Kill Team coming soon to a table near me.
If she happens to face someone who looks like her in battle, and I'm told be the opponent the them models name is actually Freddie the Friendly Eldar, it would in no way affect my enjoyment of the game.
Male? Female? Let's just say tough as nails and call it a day.
You think the DA kit is sparse? I actually think its alright. Granted haven't assembled any DA in a while. Maybe I'm just remembering that because its plastic..
Just compare component count from the intercessor kit to the avenger one (double the latter As they only come as 5 man sprues).
I'd love to have even a tenth the bits box capacity for Eldar as marines get
The avenger sprue is what almost 20 years old at this point made back when they where first experimenting with the plastic of course its sparse of parts compared to modern sprue
2006, so 13 years.
I'd love the banshees to have extra bits just because of how sparse that eldar bits can be. I know it's futile to compare to marines, but it's a massively different experience where you can practically build marines out of your bits box. I'd say that surely there must be more than just the one bare head, because it seems a bit odd that the only head they give you in the mostly-female aspect has been identified as a male. As has been suggested, I wouldn't be surprised if they showed off the male head just to generate a bit of discussion.
The plastic guardian kit was first released in 98. Dire avenger box was in 99.
The 2006 release wad just ge converting from pewter to resin the sculpts where unchanged.
Argive wrote: Part of the problem is that we dont have options. All our kits are mono static because the units dont have options. Its a shame the autarch options got removed as that was pretty much the only thing we could kit bash. And realy there is very little we can convert. (Within mono CWE range) Now even thats getting taken away. But there is potential, the wraithguard kit being a prime example of an awesome update and whats possible.
A new guardian kit with options to make storm guardian or normi guardians would be mint. Vant have it all so I will be extremely happy with plastic aspects for now and hope its not just banshees!
It will be interesting to see what options are added now they have the chance to make plastic kits with options. Up until now Eldar options have options [espcially the aspects and autarchs/exarchs] have been limited by the sculpts being metal/resin as we haven't benefited from the leaps in plastic tech [as said for the guardians and Dire Avengers]. I got couple fo things out the avenger kit and I've used DE wyche and hellion bare heads to add variety back to my eldar. I hope they lose things up -I've been envious of other factions ability to kitbash for ages..
Argive wrote: Part of the problem is that we dont have options. All our kits are mono static because the units dont have options. Its a shame the autarch options got removed as that was pretty much the only thing we could kit bash. And realy there is very little we can convert. (Within mono CWE range) Now even thats getting taken away. But there is potential, the wraithguard kit being a prime example of an awesome update and whats possible.
A new guardian kit with options to make storm guardian or normi guardians would be mint. Vant have it all so I will be extremely happy with plastic aspects for now and hope its not just banshees!
It will be interesting to see what options are added now they have the chance to make plastic kits with options. Up until now Eldar options have options [espcially the aspects and autarchs/exarchs] have been limited by the sculpts being metal/resin as we haven't benefited from the leaps in plastic tech [as said for the guardians and Dire Avengers]. I got couple fo things out the avenger kit and I've used DE wyche and hellion bare heads to add variety back to my eldar. I hope they lose things up -I've been envious of other factions ability to kitbash for ages..
It would be a bit of a tangent since Aspects are supposed to focus entirely on a certain aspect of war. But I could see Mirrorsword or executioner banshees being a thing
I would love if they bring the trisckle back as an alternative to shuri pistols.. Storm guardians use shuri pistols... Ya know what I mean? It deosn't scream specialist elite gear.
Would be cool if you could have the option load out standard banshees with trickles + Power sword, Rather than shuri pistols.
So trisckle + P. Sword
Shuri pistol plus P.sword
Dual blades - Mirror swords or dual power blades(extra Dmg and attack ?)
Executioner
Potentially 4 variants for your squad. Would be cool. Not expecting it though lol.
It would be a bit of a tangent since Aspects are supposed to focus entirely on a certain aspect of war. But I could see Mirrorsword or executioner banshees being a thing
Yeah, they're focused on the aspect of the banshee, but that's a fighting philosophy, not a set of specific things.
Clearly, Jain ZAR thinks that swords, screaming, running, polearms, throwing blades and dual wielding swords are all within the realm of the banshee aspect philosophy.
I reckon there are a lot more potential schools of thought within each aspect than we've seen. I would like to see dark reapers with shuriken cannons as an option for example, as maugan ra clearly believes they are a valid interpretation of khaine the destroyer. If anything his pupils would have had to convince him that rapid firing missile launchers are a valid interpretation within the context of his original philosophy (a massive scythe shrieked cannon).
Yep, they were. Just heads and...loin cloths? It wasn't much, but the Guardian kit was subtly revisited with the addition of the plastic support weapon, and Dire Avengers had a relatively new kit - which used to sell $35 for 10 and was then arbitrarily chopped to $35 for 5...because, GW.
It would be a bit of a tangent since Aspects are supposed to focus entirely on a certain aspect of war. But I could see Mirrorsword or executioner banshees being a thing
Yeah, they're focused on the aspect of the banshee, but that's a fighting philosophy, not a set of specific things.
Clearly, Jain ZAR thinks that swords, screaming, running, polearms, throwing blades and dual wielding swords are all within the realm of the banshee aspect philosophy.
I reckon there are a lot more potential schools of thought within each aspect than we've seen. I would like to see dark reapers with shuriken cannons as an option for example, as maugan ra clearly believes they are a valid interpretation of khaine the destroyer. If anything his pupils would have had to convince him that rapid firing missile launchers are a valid interpretation within the context of his original philosophy (a massive scythe shrieked cannon).
Yeah- thats what I meant - variants within the theme of the aspects. Jes Wass talking about their current evolution of design on Voxcast recently [in regards to Primaris design] but what was saying was they were looking to take an element of a design and expand it outwards. With the aspects this could be giving them more options - as has been mentioned his initial designs had bare headed aspect warriors and weapon variants [the reapers had a shuriken cannon design, the scorpions had a power fist -not a scorpions claw as that was an ancient weapon initially.
They probably never expanded this in the fluff because at the time the model options where restricted.
Picked up an interesting bit of fluff from WD127 the other night- Exarchs were described as lost on warrior path - but they could be Exarchs of any shrine before settling on one, and some exarchs would get lost on - continually moving, as exarchs, from one aspect to the other. Hence why exarchs originally could have mixed armaments the Autarchs can sort of do now.
Next, somebody said the head has been identified as male. That isn't technically true either.
Someone on Dakka said they thought the head looked male; enough people agree that it became a thing. I don't think GW said it was male. I personally don't think they intended it to be. I think they just emphasized warrior elements of the face to the point where it didn't match with many people's preconceived notions of femininity.
That said, if you like to think of it as a male wearing female armour, I support your right to think that. If you want to think of it as a woman who just doesn't have features that fit a narrow interpretation of what feminine means, I support your right to think that too.
Because I'm not really invested in changing how you play or think. I chose to see a woman who has lived through so much horror and war that she doesn't really care whether or not I think she's pretty; I see a woman who will tear my arms off or cut me into tiny pieces if I give her a rough time about what she looks like.
And I think she's a perfect fit for a Kill Team coming soon to a table near me.
If she happens to face someone who looks like her in battle, and I'm told be the opponent the them models name is actually Freddie the Friendly Eldar, it would in no way affect my enjoyment of the game.
Male? Female? Let's just say tough as nails and call it a day.
I'm one of the ones who mentioned the head being male - but normally I totally agree with you. I know plenty of people want female minis to be clearly pretty, large chested etc, but I'm happier with them looking like warriors. But in this case, GW responded to a comment on their instagram page saying that this particular head is male - proof in the spoiler tags. I thought it looked pretty androgynous myself, but if they identify this head as being male I'd suggest that surely it makes sense to have heads in the kit that are officially female too.
The whole army already looks like warriors with greek armor sporting 6-packs; Banshees is one place where aesthetic should glorify female form for once.
Shadenuat wrote: The whole army already looks like warriors with greek armor sporting 6-packs; Banshees is one place where aesthetic should glorify female form for once.
For once? Or do you mean like the Eldar range has had since the 1980's? It's never been short of female warriors.
Shadenuat wrote: Where are female Farseers, Autarches, special characters etc. then?
Jain Zar doesn't count as a female SC? I also remember there being rules for a female Spiritseer for Iyanden, but I'm not sure if she was ever released.
As I'm sure you're aware, there are female Guardian torsos in the Guardian kit, which also means that with a bit of work and Guardian-based unit can include female members (or female crew, in the case of vehicles).
And, of course, any Wraith unit could be carrying the spirit stone of a female Eldar
Shadenuat wrote: I care feth for your media, I mean the miniatures.
In the miniature department, the Eldars used to have some female representation in the traditionnal Banshee, a few guardians and Jain Zar (there was a spiritseer SC, but she never had a model). This is of course a very low count of women considering in the fluff, Eldars are a gender equalitarian civilisation in which women are just as athletic if not more then men. This is mostly due to the fact that women representation in male centric media used to sparse, contain to a few specific trope and often tied quasi exclusively to sex-appeal. GW newer models (and story) have a tendency to offer more female representation, but the Eldar range is old. I was rather surprised they decided to go for a male Banshee Exarch since it seems to go against the trend of adding female representation to some of their model lines. Only time will tell if they will add more if and when they release new plastic Aspect Warrior.
I really don't get this. If you want a female centric army if that's important for some reason... could play SOB.
Or, there are plenty WHFB/AOS heads and convert some female characters if it really means that much dawg.
I'm happy with my eldars mainly being dudes. In my head cannon this makes sense they would be very protective of their ladies as they got slow reproduction thing going on.. Its also not necessarly easy to tell whose who... Or do we need huge SOB style knockers to check off that particular box?
it''s worth noting, as others have before, that a woman under (realistic looking) armor isn't going to be immediatly obvious as well. Let's use a particularly well known example from modern pop culture.
thats a woman under the armor, we all know this because we know who it is. but you'd never know unless someone TOLD you.
Are eldar even known for being sexualy dymorphic like humans? Because armour or not, if they aren't, then the difference would be impossible to spot. But if it is, then the looks of the armour wouldn't matter, if one sex was a head smaller on avarge.
Precisely. We also have these things...called bits. I felt like having a female Farseer...so I just made one. Other than the huge hand (which is massive for an Eldar of either sex) this is now a female Farseer:
This one got a male head...but could have easily also been female...it's a completely moot point.
The maybe is what makes me wonder though. I read that male banshees wore female armour, so faceless art doesn't explain everything. Yvrena is of course female, but her bodyguard may as well be captin Phasma for all we know. As Dark Eldar goes, with them looks mean nothing. For all we know an angry homonculus could flash shape a dog to look like your trueborn child for all we know.
Goddamn I love mark gibbons' work.
I don't know why, but that art looks alive, in a way paintings look alive. A lot of GW art looks as if someone was taking a picture of actual GW models and then re doing them in photoshop. Nothing against such style of art, but it makes stuff look like toys or cartoons.
We're talking about a race that believes in goddess of fertility (actually a trio of goddesses - young one, a mother and a crone) and even has a matriarchial Craftworld, right?
People seem to give eldar too much credit when it comes to being advanced at everything, be it culture or technology. While in fact they're anachronistic and half of their lore is thousand years old grudges and taboos with a good deal of extreme xenophobia.
Karol wrote: Are eldar even known for being sexualy dymorphic like humans? Because armour or not, if they aren't, then the difference would be impossible to spot. But if it is, then the looks of the armour wouldn't matter, if one sex was a head smaller on avarge.
Yes, their physiology in general is similar to human genders, in things like limbs, reproductive organs, and secondary characteristics.
Karol wrote: Are eldar even known for being sexualy dymorphic like humans? Because armour or not, if they aren't, then the difference would be impossible to spot. But if it is, then the looks of the armour wouldn't matter, if one sex was a head smaller on avarge.
Yes, their physiology in general is similar to human genders, in things like limbs, reproductive organs, and secondary characteristics.
That I expected, but I was more thinking about grown male/female differences. Till 14-15y old you may have trouble to see who is who, when wearing protective gear. With upper class people that is never the case. Men and female are just different size and shapes, when they are older. although it would be funny to have 9 striking scorpions the size of space marines, and one that is a head and a half smaller.
Eldar are dimorphic, but less so than humans. They all seem to have tall and slim physique, and the males tend to look rather androgynous. I'm not sure there is any indication that Eldar women would be smaller and less muscular than men.
I think it is true for all races. Remember when the non xenophobic tau decided it would be a great idea to invite some Dark Eldar for cultural exchange? that didn't end well. w40k race was is clear as Pepsi Zero, inter species stuff is like trying to a friend with a herd of boars.
Hair culturally and historically was always a symbol of female power, from fairy tales to goddesses to toys and shampoo commercials. The Banshee design supports this with flowing hair on the masks - in fact, the new Banshees have even more of it than previous models. Ironically I think many took Exarch for female because of the raging hair style he has; and Yvraine has long hair, even longer on art where it looks like it comes down to her feet.
So while you can hide forms behind armor if you want, you'd better put some fluffy locks or you get Raine, who on her own book art looks feminine but the miniature is too small to make it look like the art.
But long hair being feminine is 100% a human thing. Most pheromones produced by women come out of their head, thus longer hair "traps" more pheromones and thus makes said female appear more attractive to the senses. As mammals, were get a lot of cues from scent.
Fun fact side note: most male pheromones come from our arm pits. Curiously, since males are generally taller than females that puts both gender's pheromones about "nose" height.
Galef wrote: But long hair being feminine is 100% a human thing. Most pheromones produced by women come out of their head, thus longer hair "traps" more pheromones and thus makes said female appear more attractive to the senses.
As mammals, were get a lot of cues from scent.
Fun fact side note: most male pheromones come form our arm pits. Curiously, since males are generally taller than females that puts both gender's pheromones about "nose" height.
-
Every day I learn something new. kind of a makes sense while male boars have more hair too. Females hide with boarlings, and don't want to be smelled by predators, so have short hair. Males boars fight other boars, and animals, so they want to smell as strong as possible.
Would be cool, if GW wrote some paragraphs about how different races work, like they did for space marines. So people wouldn't get confused or draw the wrong conclusions. Or be suprised if GW suddenly says that somehting was X all along.
Hair culturally and historically was always a symbol of female power, from fairy tales to goddesses to toys and shampoo commercials. The Banshee design supports this with flowing hair on the masks - in fact, the new Banshees have even more of it than previous models. Ironically I think many took Exarch for female because of the raging hair style he has; and Yvraine has long hair, even longer on art where it looks like it comes down to her feet.
So while you can hide forms behind armor if you want, you'd better put some fluffy locks or you get Raine, who on her own book art looks feminine but the miniature is too small to make it look like the art.
If hair were power, then the male banshees would also sport beards....
Shadenuat wrote: And humans play the game, not Eldar or Daemonettes or whatever. Not to mention all Eldar mythology is based on human one.
Um... they are elves not humans, and they are fantasy not real, so they can be what ever you want them to be. Its little plastic toys, don't like them don;t buy them.
Galef wrote: But long hair being feminine is 100% a human thing. Most pheromones produced by women come out of their head, thus longer hair "traps" more pheromones and thus makes said female appear more attractive to the senses.
As mammals, were get a lot of cues from scent.
Fun fact side note: most male pheromones come form our arm pits. Curiously, since males are generally taller than females that puts both gender's pheromones about "nose" height.
-
This kind of sounds like pop science horse garbage at first glance, I'll be honest. A totes rigorous scientific study you guys that claims to explain a current social moray as objectively good and ideal is exactly the kind of thing that tends to get juuuuuust far enough into the peer review process for all the sensational news coverage to pick up on it.
Google scholar isn't coming up with much here. Evolutionary biology seems to mostly just point to long hair as an "Adornment trait" in most cultures corresponding to health (if you have your hair you look more youthful/healthy) wealth (long, well-kept hair means you're not out in the fields getting dirty) or sometimes wisdom (since growing long hair/long beards takes a long time).
Karol wrote: Would be cool, if GW wrote some paragraphs about how different races work
Well there was that Xenobiology book or whatever, but they probably don't need it/want it now, since it can lead to all kind of weird discussions akin to Mass Effect ones.
Hell didn't rogue trader even feature half-eldar?
Stormonu wrote: If hair were power, then the male banshees would also sport beards
Rule 101, unless you're in ElfQuest comic, if you're an elf you don't have a beard and nobody knows how you reproduce!
the_scotsman wrote: Google scholar isn't coming up with much here. Evolutionary biology seems to mostly just point to long hair as an "Adornment trait" in most cultures corresponding to health (if you have your hair you look more youthful/healthy) wealth (long, well-kept hair means you're not out in the fields getting dirty) or sometimes wisdom (since growing long hair/long beards takes a long time).
That's certainly true, but my original point is that there is a REASON that so many cultures, which evolved distinct from each other, all seem to promote long hair for women. The difference between pheromone production in men vs women and where it is produced most on their bodies respectively is very minute. But there is enough difference for it to have had an affect on our culture.
How this relates to Banshees is that I do not think GW has ever gone into detail about the dimorphism of Eldar, aside from modeling mammary glands. Males often have long hair and females are just as tall as males. So but projecting OUR perception of male/female as HUMANS, we miss the point the Aeldari are indeed Alien.
Karol wrote: Would be cool, if GW wrote some paragraphs about how different races work
Well there was that Xenobiology book or whatever, but they probably don't need it/want it now, since it can lead to all kind of weird discussions akin to Mass Effect ones.
Hell didn't rogue trader even feature half-eldar?
Stormonu wrote: If hair were power, then the male banshees would also sport beards
Rule 101, unless you're in ElfQuest comic, if you're an elf you don't have a beard and nobody knows how you reproduce!
Galef wrote: but projecting OUR perception of male/female as HUMANS, we miss the point the Aeldari are indeed Alien
Eldar are Alien, but miniatures are made to get a particular response, like feeling of strength or brutality, fear or ugliness, lethality and elegance and yes, masculinity or femininity.
Cut Banshee red manes and see if they look as striking and powerful without them.
Amishprn86 wrote: I never said i don't like it lol, you are the one upset not me.
Why do you care what I feel anyway? I have my mom for this.
The norm for gender dimorphism in fantasy elves of which Eldars are just another varient of is that there is indeed some of it. Eldars are practically just like human to the point where one could mistake an Eldar for a human, their only "alien trait" is basically their pointy ear. Eldars, like all elves, have an abundance of female secondary characteristics. They are tall, slender, graceful and have absurdely princess-like long hair. They also have a higher preponderance of tertiary characteristics like a love for art, a proximity to nature and wilderness and powerful emotional lives. As such, the average Eldar women are, most often, idealised human women and look like drop-dead gorgeous supermodels (size included) while their average males look like antroginous effetes. Should they be "good" in the fiction, one will emphasis their refinement, wisdom and grace. Should they be "evil", they will made into manipulative, sexualy perverted and arrogant people. In this, they follow the tropes and patterns of female protagonists and villains. Elves and Eldars are predominantly described as "feminine" no matter the actual gender of the character in question which also frequently explains the common portraying the "smurfette" in fantasy as an elf. 40K is a bit an odity due to the fact that the flagship character of the Eldar, Eldrad, is a man and not a woman. Then again, they are supposed to be evil and thus an effete makes a good treacherous villain. Yvraine and Lelith, being both women, are more like some sort of dominatrix, thus sexually perverted and good villainess. Orcs in fantasy and Orkz in 40K follow the opposite pattern being predominantly masculine no matter the gender of the actual character.
the_scotsman wrote: Google scholar isn't coming up with much here. Evolutionary biology seems to mostly just point to long hair as an "Adornment trait" in most cultures corresponding to health (if you have your hair you look more youthful/healthy) wealth (long, well-kept hair means you're not out in the fields getting dirty) or sometimes wisdom (since growing long hair/long beards takes a long time).
That's certainly true, but my original point is that there is a REASON that so many cultures, which evolved distinct from each other, all seem to promote long hair for women. The difference between pheromone production in men vs women and where it is produced most on their bodies respectively is very minute. But there is enough difference for it to have had an affect on our culture.
How this relates to Banshees is that I do not think GW has ever gone into detail about the dimorphism of Eldar, aside from modeling mammary glands. Males often have long hair and females are just as tall as males. So but projecting OUR perception of male/female as HUMANS, we miss the point the Aeldari are indeed Alien.
-
Your original point - that there needs to be a reason - is just wrong, and born from a perspective-based generalization whereby you take what you perceive to be the normal state of the society you currently live in and prescribe it a biological imperative, regardless of one evidently exists or not. It leaves out the fact that in plenty of societies men wore long hair, or nobody could grow long hair because hair was not straight, or we have no idea what the culture was surrounding hair because most of human existence occurred before the dawn of recorded history. It just posits a narrative based on our own current notions of normal and projects it on the world at large, backing it up with some flimsy science that wouldn't see the light of day unless it was telling the public something they liked to hear.
That's the same thing people seem to be doing ITT with respect to eldar, asserting that so few of their models have molded breastplates because a smaller percentage of their fighters are female as they are a dying race and would keep their womenfolk safe for breeding.
Historically, that's not how societies under existential threat have acted. In universe lore, that's not how the Eldar act - All Eldar Must Answer the Call is a big theme. And let's not forget this is a race whose crazy, debauched cousins have the technology necessary to clone a living, functional drukhari with all the memories of its former self intact from the barest bit of genetic material with zero need for any primitive pregnancy or birthing.
We don't know how the CWE roll, but I would hazard a guess it's not going to involve entrusting the safety of their society's most valuable treasures to a crude biological process that impairs the function of one able-bodied Eldar for several months.
Although it's of course great that DE also transfer from failcast to plastic, so cheers to them. Interestingly they don't get an ynnari version, and GW also chosen one of the unplayed units for them - buffing Incubi.
Now pretty please don't suck. a minimum squad size less than 5 would be aces, but I'm not betting on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like the demiklaives have something similar to their old rules, which is kind of disappointing compared to the excellent damage of the Executioner banshee exarch. Even without any special abilities at all, the executioner exarch does more damage to MEQ than the single-blade Klaivex, and the dual-blade demiklaive only does a tiny bit more damage than an executioner vs GEQ despite that being ostensibly the demiklaive's preferred role.
Would have really liked to see D3 damage on the single blade profile, or S5/S4 instead of S4/S3.
Oh well, hopefully the Klaivex also gets his choice of "Exarch abilities" as the banshee exarch does.
Three cheers for a kit that looks totally compatible with the rest of the very bits-swappable deldar range though.
Galef wrote: But long hair being feminine is 100% a human thing. Most pheromones produced by women come out of their head, thus longer hair "traps" more pheromones and thus makes said female appear more attractive to the senses.
As mammals, were get a lot of cues from scent.
Fun fact side note: most male pheromones come form our arm pits. Curiously, since males are generally taller than females that puts both gender's pheromones about "nose" height.
-
This kind of sounds like pop science horse garbage at first glance, I'll be honest. A totes rigorous scientific study you guys that claims to explain a current social moray as objectively good and ideal is exactly the kind of thing that tends to get juuuuuust far enough into the peer review process for all the sensational news coverage to pick up on it.
Google scholar isn't coming up with much here. Evolutionary biology seems to mostly just point to long hair as an "Adornment trait" in most cultures corresponding to health (if you have your hair you look more youthful/healthy) wealth (long, well-kept hair means you're not out in the fields getting dirty) or sometimes wisdom (since growing long hair/long beards takes a long time).
Long hair = health, just like facial symmetry. It also keeps your head/neck/back protected from the sun and cold, so it has practical value as well.
Men mostly having short hair is a sensible military trait - you don't want hair in your eyes when fighting and you don't want another human grabbing your hair and controlling your head. Thousands of years of human warfare has proven the value of short hair in males, while women are generally exempt from military service, so they're free to grow long hair. Long hair is also a lot of extra work with today's modern hygiene standards, so most men (and a lot of women!) can't be bothered with it.
The whole pheromone thing highly questionable, as our noses are garbage (compared to most species). Long hair serves as an excellent visual cue and any scent it might carry is secondary at best.
Hair culturally and historically was always a symbol of female power, from fairy tales to goddesses to toys and shampoo commercials.
This is stupid. Long hair beind associated with feminine is a cultural thing and far from universal. There have been many eras and cultures where men had long hair as well. I guess someone will next demand that female aliens must have pink armour, as pink is universally associated with the feminine. (Instead of the association being invented by marketing people in the 40s.)
Hair culturally and historically was always a symbol of female power, from fairy tales to goddesses to toys and shampoo commercials.
This is stupid. Long hair beind associated with feminine is a cultural thing and far from universal. There have been many eras and cultures where men had long hair as well. I guess someone will next demand that female aliens must have pink armour, as pink is universally associated with the feminine. (Instead of the association being invented by marketing people in the 40s.)
I think the charitable interpretation of the comment was that on a miniature, long hair is a better indicator of femininity than giant bazonkalongadonkos.
Which I kind of agree with. I love my 2nd ed banshees but wish they weren't in comic book superhero spine-snapper poses with breastplates bigger than their facemasks.
Without descending this thread into a gender argument/culture war BS and getting this locked (appreciate the civility everyone btw!) I would just like to add that long hair is indeed a cultural construct.
Long hair was not at all a female-only thing historically... If you look at classical antiquity culture, the ancient persians, greeks all sported longish hair usualy tied in some sort of braid/knot. The Gauls and other barbarians raiding Rome were most certainly referred to as "hairy barbarians". I would wager that the prevalent association of short hare with being masculne stems from the romans. A legionary crew haircut cut was used to ensure the helment/cap fits as well as increase levels of hygiene. It became the "civilised" look propagated by the roman propaganda machine which still echoes in western culture to this day. It sort of dipped and waned and became very pravailent around WW1 again. Just look at all the crazy wigs people wore around the renaissance! However, if you look to the east and across worldwide indigenous cultures you see dudes with turbans, long hair all over the place.
Now, on topic. Bit late, but I have posted the latest incubi image and amended the thread title so that we can discuss Eldar N&R which by the looks of we are going to be getting a fair bunch! I don't care much for our dark brethren of the DE variety... But I don't see why we cant band the Eldar stuff together. The purist in me feels like this is heresy...But any model that has finecast replaced with plastic is a win for the community and shoudl be celebrated. So all good in the hood..
Personally, a little bit disappointed with the "preview" which was like 1 paragraph considering marines get diarrhea of release crap but hey ho...
Should make Dark Eldar players happy. Still has the unattractive Dark Eldar elements. Will keep an eye on the full kit as occasionally some bits are useful for kit-swaps/bashes for the normal Eldar.
John Prins wrote: Men mostly having short hair is a sensible military trait - you don't want hair in your eyes when fighting and you don't want another human grabbing your hair and controlling your head. Thousands of years of human warfare has proven the value of short hair in males, while women are generally exempt from military service, so they're free to grow long hair. Long hair is also a lot of extra work with today's modern hygiene standards, so most men (and a lot of women!) can't be bothered with it.
I'll have to inject a bit of realism in your narrative, but for most of military history, men wore long hair and long beard too. It turns out that helmet are a thing and that those in addition to some minor hairstyling allow people with long hair to fight without any problem. SInce hair was a sign of health and status and that war was an activity performed mainly by people with high status, many of the world's best warrior were men with long hair and sometime long beard. Particularly beliquose civilisation still kept their hair long and sometime even fashionned them in outlandish fashion to look more scary. The idea of shaving beards and hair in the military is very modern and was done to prevent the propagation of lices and other parasites with the creation of large professionnal armies. Only in the post WWI era did hair shaving became a feature of military training and indoctrination as method of breaking individuality (but also to prevent the propagation of lices in barracks). As the army struggle to recruit and since they started to accept women in their ranks, those rules have been relaxed if not abandonned. Proper hair hygene is no longer the challenge it was a century or more ago. Men didn't evolve to have shorter hair. In fact, men and women can have hair the same length. Women's hair are less numerous and live longer though, but it seem to be a complete coincidence linked to sexual hormones and body chemistry. Men hair are more numerous and grow faster, but doesn't live as long and of course, many men suffer from balding. It doesn't seem to be a naturally selected trait. It's a bit like body hair. We don't know why women have less of them then men and it's most probably purely a consequence of other adaptation and not selected itself. The reason, today, women have longer hair then men on average is because they want it so because it's in fashion.
The whole pheromone thing highly questionable, as our noses are garbage (compared to most species). Long hair serves as an excellent visual cue and any scent it might carry is secondary at best.
Humans can't really smell pheromon and neither do we need to since we don't have ruts and heats anymore. Those pheromonal perfumes and stuff like that were about as efficient as homeopathy.
On the subject of the new Incubi, it looks pretty damn good model. I hope it also comes with some bells and whistles and customisation like, for example, an helmetless Klaivex could be cool (though I personnaly am a big fan of helmets).
Argive wrote: Long hair was not at all a female-only thing historically...
For the miniatures what matters is what people believe today. On such an extremely small scale, you have to work with symbols, shapes and colors to represent what you want people to feel.
Elbows wrote: Should make Dark Eldar players happy. Still has the unattractive Dark Eldar elements. Will keep an eye on the full kit as occasionally some bits are useful for kit-swaps/bashes for the normal Eldar.
Most DE players didnt want plastic incubi, we wanted better our HQ options back.
Shadenuat wrote: Interestingly they don't get an ynnari version, and GW also chosen one of the unplayed units for them - buffing Incubi.
GW did indeed pick an underplayed unit. Yet you only have to look at the Demiklaive profile to see that GW has absolutely no idea why Incubi are underplayed (and will in all likelihood continue to be underplayed).
Amishprn86 wrote: Most DE players didnt want plastic incubi, we wanted better our HQ options back.
Exactly. Failcast or not, Incubi already had workable models.
I don't updates of existing models; I want to see models for some or all of the myriad of units that have been removed from the DE codex.
Argive wrote: Without descending this thread into a gender argument/culture war BS and getting this locked (appreciate the civility everyone btw!) I would just like to add that long hair is indeed a cultural construct.
Long hair was not at all a female-only thing historically... If you look at classical antiquity culture, the ancient persians, greeks all sported longish hair usualy tied in some sort of braid/knot.
The Gauls and other barbarians raiding Rome were most certainly referred to as "hairy barbarians". I would wager that the prevalent association of short hare with being masculne stems from the romans. A legionary crew haircut cut was used to ensure the helment/cap fits as well as increase levels of hygiene. It became the "civilised" look propagated by the roman propaganda machine which still echoes in western culture to this day. It sort of dipped and waned and became very pravailent around WW1 again. Just look at all the crazy wigs people wore around the renaissance!
However, if you look to the east and across worldwide indigenous cultures you see dudes with turbans, long hair all over the place.
Now, on topic. Bit late, but I have posted the latest incubi image and amended the thread title so that we can discuss Eldar N&R which by the looks of we are going to be getting a fair bunch! I don't care much for our dark brethren of the DE variety... But I don't see why we cant band the Eldar stuff together. The purist in me feels like this is heresy...But any model that has finecast replaced with plastic is a win for the community and shoudl be celebrated. So all good in the hood..
Personally, a little bit disappointed with the "preview" which was like 1 paragraph considering marines get diarrhea of release crap but hey ho...
Hair culturally and historically was always a symbol of female power, from fairy tales to goddesses to toys and shampoo commercials.
This is stupid. Long hair beind associated with feminine is a cultural thing and far from universal. There have been many eras and cultures where men had long hair as well. I guess someone will next demand that female aliens must have pink armour, as pink is universally associated with the feminine. (Instead of the association being invented by marketing people in the 40s.)
In classic Sparta having long hair was a symbol of becoming a true warrior. After you became a spartiata ( True citizens, 30 years old males) you stopped cutting your hair. In other greek polis, letting your hair grown long was seen as a declaration of political affinities with Sparta.
Shadenuat wrote: And for Incubi, until GW confirms it's actually a female Incubi under the helmet, what's there to talk about?
Considering that Incubi is a gendered name (the female version being Succubus), I don't think there is any female Incubi or if there are, they probably are an odity. Then again, it might just be a fancy title since Dark Eldar Incubi have nothing in common with treacherous shapeshifting sex demons.
Shadenuat wrote: And for Incubi, until GW confirms it's actually a female Incubi under the helmet, what's there to talk about?
Considering that Incubi is a gendered name (the female version being Succubus), I don't think there is any female Incubi or if there are, they probably are an odity. Then again, it might just be a fancy title since Dark Eldar Incubi have nothing in common with treacherous shapeshifting sex demons.
Shadenuat wrote: And for Incubi, until GW confirms it's actually a female Incubi under the helmet, what's there to talk about?
Considering that Incubi is a gendered name (the female version being Succubus), I don't think there is any female Incubi or if there are, they probably are an odity. Then again, it might just be a fancy title since Dark Eldar Incubi have nothing in common with treacherous shapeshifting sex demons.
Banshee is also a gendered name.
That's true and this could hint that there are female Incubi, but I still don't get why Incubi are called Incubi. At least Succubus have the habit of selling sex and violence in one wicked package and Banshee to have a horrifying scream, but Incubi aren't really rape obsessed monster who father terrible monsters, witches and warlocks.
Argive wrote: Without descending this thread into a gender argument/culture war BS and getting this locked (appreciate the civility everyone btw!) I would just like to add that long hair is indeed a cultural construct.
Long hair was not at all a female-only thing historically... If you look at classical antiquity culture, the ancient persians, greeks all sported longish hair usualy tied in some sort of braid/knot.
The Gauls and other barbarians raiding Rome were most certainly referred to as "hairy barbarians". I would wager that the prevalent association of short hare with being masculne stems from the romans. A legionary crew haircut cut was used to ensure the helment/cap fits as well as increase levels of hygiene. It became the "civilised" look propagated by the roman propaganda machine which still echoes in western culture to this day. It sort of dipped and waned and became very pravailent around WW1 again. Just look at all the crazy wigs people wore around the renaissance!
However, if you look to the east and across worldwide indigenous cultures you see dudes with turbans, long hair all over the place.
Now, on topic. Bit late, but I have posted the latest incubi image and amended the thread title so that we can discuss Eldar N&R which by the looks of we are going to be getting a fair bunch! I don't care much for our dark brethren of the DE variety... But I don't see why we cant band the Eldar stuff together. The purist in me feels like this is heresy...But any model that has finecast replaced with plastic is a win for the community and shoudl be celebrated. So all good in the hood..
Personally, a little bit disappointed with the "preview" which was like 1 paragraph considering marines get diarrhea of release crap but hey ho...
GW once again not understanding their own units. Without D2, you're going to mostly just want those extra attacks outside really niche situations.
Yeah damage one is just so useless unless you got massive amounts of attacks.
Admittedly, I don't really know anything much about DE or incubi. I don't deal in heresy...But was interesting bit of fluff how their whole shtick is "killing aspect warriors" which makes sense as they are dirty DE. I can see that being a cool narrative thing..
Drukhari should be enemies of all other Eldar and everything that is good in the universe. The whole idea of souping and ynnari of DE and (proper)Eldar has always seemed stupid.. Corsairs, I can see as they are essentially mercenaries/ space pirates.. But not DE...
Like you will be an aspect fighting in a battle and dave the incubi rocks up holding hands with yrvaine with your best friends/father/mothers soul stone dangling around his pandora bracelet... let me tell you he's not leave that battlefield... Ya know what I mean :p
Nah. Craftworlders and the Dark Eldar allying occasionally is hella cool. Yes, they hate each other, but they consider each other to be people. To the eldar all other lifeforms in the galaxy are basically animals, and not even cute sort of animals.
Karol wrote: Are eldar even known for being sexualy dymorphic like humans? Because armour or not, if they aren't, then the difference would be impossible to spot. But if it is, then the looks of the armour wouldn't matter, if one sex was a head smaller on avarge.
Yes, their physiology in general is similar to human genders, in things like limbs, reproductive organs, and secondary characteristics.
That I expected, but I was more thinking about grown male/female differences. Till 14-15y old you may have trouble to see who is who, when wearing protective gear. With upper class people that is never the case. Men and female are just different size and shapes, when they are older. although it would be funny to have 9 striking scorpions the size of space marines, and one that is a head and a half smaller.
Even in adult hood it's hard to tell, assuming the armor isn't sculpted.
To be fair, I assumed your question was about their physiology being different enough that they would see a need for expressing gender dimorphism via exagerated 'human like' visual display. (AKA a desplay that humans would recognize instantly as gendered, and following a humanesque physical style.)
Karol wrote: Are eldar even known for being sexualy dymorphic like humans? Because armour or not, if they aren't, then the difference would be impossible to spot. But if it is, then the looks of the armour wouldn't matter, if one sex was a head smaller on avarge.
Yes, their physiology in general is similar to human genders, in things like limbs, reproductive organs, and secondary characteristics.
That I expected, but I was more thinking about grown male/female differences. Till 14-15y old you may have trouble to see who is who, when wearing protective gear. With upper class people that is never the case. Men and female are just different size and shapes, when they are older. although it would be funny to have 9 striking scorpions the size of space marines, and one that is a head and a half smaller.
except armor, real armor isn't exactly spandex.
yet again, if you didn't know who was under that armor you'd never know if it was a man or a woman (it's a woman BTW)
Yeah and many people believe that hiding Gwendoline Christie under this armor all the time was a total waste of her character. They turned her into a stupid joke.
In place of the thick armour plates used by soldiers
of the Imperium, the Asuryani use psychically activated
bodysuits. Guardians wear armour formed from complex
psychoplastics which stiffen with the impact of a shot or blow.
Aspect Warrior armour is similar in design, but incorporates
moulded plates to better reinforce the suit. Both react to
the movements and thoughtforms of the wearer, reshaping
to fit like a glove as the warrior moves and fights. Even the
heaviest and most ornate of these suits, worn by Exarchs, are
still lightweight compared to the bulky armour of the galaxy’s
more primitive inhabitants.
Shadenuat wrote: And for Incubi, until GW confirms it's actually a female Incubi under the helmet, what's there to talk about?
Considering that Incubi is a gendered name (the female version being Succubus), I don't think there is any female Incubi or if there are, they probably are an odity. Then again, it might just be a fancy title since Dark Eldar Incubi have nothing in common with treacherous shapeshifting sex demons.
Banshee is also a gendered name.
Keep in mind that the Aspects are all facets of a male god, except for the Banshees, who are a facet he 'stole' from Morai-Heg the Crone. I always figured that the Banshee armour has exaggerated breasts because the Howling Banshees are playing a female ceremonial role, independent of whether the Eldar wearing the suit is male or female.
As much as I like the Incubi helmets, I hope the plastic kit comes with some bare head options. Not that there aren't plenty of good DE heads already (each kit tended to come with at least twice the amount you actually needed), but more is always preferred to less.
Naturally, I also hope the parts breakdown is similar to the older kits for conversion and reposing potential, unlike the switch from firstborn to Primaris space marines.
, greeks all sported longish hair usualy tied in some sort of braid/knot.
that is not true. long hair was a specific adult spartan thing, that only they were known of. And they wore that because it was a marks of kings and demi gods, to which they claim the right by being the scions of Hercules. In persia or other countries it was the same, long hair on a man either marked him as a king or ruler, or part of nobility. It was so specific a mark of being someone important, that humans invented a wig industry as far as 2k BC.
Even in adult hood it's hard to tell, assuming the armor isn't sculpted.
I go to a sports school. I was thinking in the line of protective sports gear. You see a 12 or 13 years old in a judo suit and the difference is hard to notice.
. To the eldar all other lifeforms in the galaxy are basically animals, and not even cute sort of animals.
not even the orcs? aren't they both multi helix species created by the old ones at the same time?
GW did indeed pick an underplayed unit. Yet you only have to look at the Demiklaive profile to see that GW has absolutely no idea why Incubi are underplayed (and will in all likelihood continue to be underplayed).
maybe they get a serious point cost drop. If they droped like 4-5 pts, they would see more play, at least at a non event level people would try them out then.
Regardless of point costs it seems to me that against say T4 both profiles do almost same damage and with a rule for +2 damage on wound of a 6 you might even always prefer +2A one.
Argive wrote: Without descending this thread into a gender argument/culture war BS and getting this locked (appreciate the civility everyone btw!) I would just like to add that long hair is indeed a cultural construct.
Long hair was not at all a female-only thing historically... If you look at classical antiquity culture, the ancient persians, greeks all sported longish hair usualy tied in some sort of braid/knot.
The Gauls and other barbarians raiding Rome were most certainly referred to as "hairy barbarians". I would wager that the prevalent association of short hare with being masculne stems from the romans. A legionary crew haircut cut was used to ensure the helment/cap fits as well as increase levels of hygiene. It became the "civilised" look propagated by the roman propaganda machine which still echoes in western culture to this day. It sort of dipped and waned and became very pravailent around WW1 again. Just look at all the crazy wigs people wore around the renaissance!
However, if you look to the east and across worldwide indigenous cultures you see dudes with turbans, long hair all over the place.
Now, on topic. Bit late, but I have posted the latest incubi image and amended the thread title so that we can discuss Eldar N&R which by the looks of we are going to be getting a fair bunch! I don't care much for our dark brethren of the DE variety... But I don't see why we cant band the Eldar stuff together. The purist in me feels like this is heresy...But any model that has finecast replaced with plastic is a win for the community and shoudl be celebrated. So all good in the hood..
Personally, a little bit disappointed with the "preview" which was like 1 paragraph considering marines get diarrhea of release crap but hey ho...
Tyranid Horde wrote: Really liking the Incubi, although how needed it was is another story...
Will probably pick up a box over the Banshees, I don't need more than 10 of those ladies unless they're incredible.
I would not be surprised if there are options on both kits to expand the line or play into the Ynnari faction. If they make barebone resin version into plastic without adding extra options it would be a first for them and probably wouldn't sell as much as a lot of people have ton of the metal/resin ones. In short, they need a hook to sell the new models which can either be options or OP rules..
I believe its designed to convey recent movement. So whilst the model is clearly standing in a power-static stance right now, the frills moving is to convey that he's just swung his arms into that position. The material might also be stiffer than regular cloth (honestly if you were going to war you'd want something pretty stiff and strong rather than soft cloth considering that in 5 mins you're going to be slicing up with a demon from hell)
Overread wrote: I believe its designed to convey recent movement. So whilst the model is clearly standing in a power-static stance right now, the frills moving is to convey that he's just swung his arms into that position. The material might also be stiffer than regular cloth (honestly if you were going to war you'd want something pretty stiff and strong rather than soft cloth considering that in 5 mins you're going to be slicing up with a demon from hell)
I do agree with you that that was probably the intention or that there is wind blowing. The problem stems more from the fact that if you are swinging a two handed weapon both frills should be moving in the same clockwise motion unless he is pushing really hard with both hands to the front. The other problem with having moving frills is that the loin cloth is very static so it kinda betrays whatever movement they were going for up top.
Elbows wrote: Should make Dark Eldar players happy. Still has the unattractive Dark Eldar elements. Will keep an eye on the full kit as occasionally some bits are useful for kit-swaps/bashes for the normal Eldar.
I wonder how much an Incubi or Banshee unit in plastic will cost next time.
We saw 3 Eliminators for 40 Euro, recently.
I guess a unit of 5 Incubi/Banshees will be 30 - 35 Euro.
Elbows wrote: Should make Dark Eldar players happy. Still has the unattractive Dark Eldar elements. Will keep an eye on the full kit as occasionally some bits are useful for kit-swaps/bashes for the normal Eldar.
I wonder how much an Incubi or Banshee unit in plastic will cost next time.
We saw 3 Eliminators for 40 Euro, recently.
I guess a unit of 5 Incubi/Banshees will be 30 - 35 Euro.
TheFleshIsWeak wrote: In terms of the aesthetic, am I the only one who thinks that the Demiklaives look a bit odd?
Not sure what it is exactly, maybe something to do with the way they're joined together? Just doesn't quite look right to me.
Or maybe its the fact that this Klaivex apparently uses his Demiklaives to store spare cricket balls.
I dunno personally I am looking forward to having my incubi roleplay as my favorite star wars tm character Rey....does...does Rey have a last name? Rey Spacelady.
I hope that new starwars preview came out and someone at GW said "YES! Demiklaives are back, they're trending baby! We gotta release those incubi!"
Elbows wrote: Should make Dark Eldar players happy. Still has the unattractive Dark Eldar elements. Will keep an eye on the full kit as occasionally some bits are useful for kit-swaps/bashes for the normal Eldar.
I wonder how much an Incubi or Banshee unit in plastic will cost next time.
We saw 3 Eliminators for 40 Euro, recently.
I guess a unit of 5 Incubi/Banshees will be 30 - 35 Euro.
40, atleast.
Considering the price of havocs.
Oh man.
Would this be a premium price or the new standard price of 5 elite models?
Shadenuat wrote: And for Incubi, until GW confirms it's actually a female Incubi under the helmet, what's there to talk about?
Considering that Incubi is a gendered name (the female version being Succubus), I don't think there is any female Incubi or if there are, they probably are an odity. Then again, it might just be a fancy title since Dark Eldar Incubi have nothing in common with treacherous shapeshifting sex demons.
Banshee is also a gendered name.
Keep in mind that the Aspects are all facets of a male god, except for the Banshees, who are a facet he 'stole' from Morai-Heg the Crone. I always figured that the Banshee armour has exaggerated breasts because the Howling Banshees are playing a female ceremonial role, independent of whether the Eldar wearing the suit is male or female.
Banshees are an Aspect of Khaine, but base their imagery heavily on the daughters of Morai-Heg (the banshees were her daughters, not her).
They also aren't the only one to do something like this - Reapers are an Aspect of Khaine, but are heavily based on aspects that came about only after (an avatar of) Khaine absorbed a Necron shard. Also, they revere Ynead to some degree (even before it was cool - before Ynnari were a thing). But they are still an Aspect of Khaine.
Guardsman is a gendered term. But there are female Guardsmen.
Crone, Harridan, and many other Nid names are gendered terms - but those forms are genderless.
And Succubus is a gendered term. But we know there are male succubi.
Just like there are female "masters" IRL, the fact that the origin of a term is gendered doesn't mean what it's used to represent is solely that gender.
GW has already priced me out of consideration, but I do think you'll see Banshees be something absurd like 5 for $45-50....instead of 10 for $60, etc. I will be mind-blown if the Banshees are anywhere near approaching reasonable. Who doesn't enjoy paying $10 for a toughness 3, one-wound model?
Consider Dire Avengers which are $35 for five and they're rather old.
Bharring wrote: Reapers are an Aspect of Khaine, but are heavily based on aspects that came about only after (an avatar of) Khaine absorbed a Necron shard. Also, they revere Ynead to some degree (even before it was cool - before Ynnari were a thing)
Banshees and Incubi. Seem to be some random releases.
Could also be Scorpions and plastic Mandrakes, Fire Dragons and plastic Wracks.
I can hear them coming ...
Bharring wrote: Reapers are an Aspect of Khaine, but are heavily based on aspects that came about only after (an avatar of) Khaine absorbed a Necron shard. Also, they revere Ynead to some degree (even before it was cool - before Ynnari were a thing)
Where are these two pieces of heresy from?
I've only heard of the first one but it was proper Khaine fighting the C'Tan in the War in Heaven and he defeated the Nightbringer but bits of him lodged in Khaine creating the destroyer/reaper aspect.
Yeah sadly i think we will get a primaris price for 1w t3 models... but £30 for 10 banshees? I could live with it or 5 for 22.50 like tje DA. Excited for the models, not least excited for the price tag...
Yeah, GW hasn't been getting organic features like cloth right since they switched to CAD sculpting. It's still better than the dynamic-yet-static Deepkin, though.
One of the reasons I think they chose Incubi was that they are a mercenary unit; they can roll with a Kabal, a Coven or a Cult. Had they chosen a Kabal unit, people who preferred Cults or Covens would have felt shafted, etc.
Another reason is that Incubi are kind of a dark parallel to aspect warriors.
As for the look of the demikaive, I think the painter's decision to paint the "ball" parts in a non- metallic when the blade is metallic... well, lets just say it put the attention where you don't really want it. I did like the handles- this very much looks like it is meant to come apart, and both blades would be usable if it did. You could probably do a conversion and build it with dual blades.
Bharring wrote: Reapers are an Aspect of Khaine, but are heavily based on aspects that came about only after (an avatar of) Khaine absorbed a Necron shard. Also, they revere Ynead to some degree (even before it was cool - before Ynnari were a thing)
Where are these two pieces of heresy from?
I've only heard of the first one but it was proper Khaine fighting the C'Tan in the War in Heaven and he defeated the Nightbringer but bits of him lodged in Khaine creating the destroyer/reaper aspect.
Proper Khaine, as opposed to Corporate Khaine?
I see what people mean about the cloth, it could flow a bit more naturally. On the other hand, the cracked spirit stone details work quite nicely.
PenitentJake wrote: One of the reasons I think they chose Incubi was that they are a mercenary unit; they can roll with a Kabal, a Coven or a Cult. Had they chosen a Kabal unit, people who preferred Cults or Covens would have felt shafted, etc.
Or, you know, they could have actually given DEmultiple units.
PenitentJake wrote: One of the reasons I think they chose Incubi was that they are a mercenary unit; they can roll with a Kabal, a Coven or a Cult. Had they chosen a Kabal unit, people who preferred Cults or Covens would have felt shafted, etc.
Or, you know, they could have actually given DEmultiple units.
While it is too soon to reach the conclusion than multiple kits will be released, it is equally too soon to determine that there will be only one.
The new artwork seems to solidify the speculation that Jain Zar and Drazhar are getting new models. It would make much sense to pair both the new unit boxes with big character releases. Both sculpts are also ancient, Jain Zar's from around 1994 and Drazzy is circa 1998-00
That new Asurmen illustration looks spot on for his old model, so I'm guessing he's staying as-is, whereas Drazhar's design in the illustration is so different I would not have been able to recognize him without the caption. He looks much closer to the incubi than he traditionally did (he never matched the unit that closely, even in 3rd edition), except he seems to have a plume in his helmet.
PenitentJake wrote: One of the reasons I think they chose Incubi was that they are a mercenary unit; they can roll with a Kabal, a Coven or a Cult. Had they chosen a Kabal unit, people who preferred Cults or Covens would have felt shafted, etc.
Or, you know, they could have actually given DEmultiple units.
While it is too soon to reach the conclusion than multiple kits will be released, it is equally too soon to determine that there will be only one.
Sadly GW hates us, we havent had a new unit in over 9yrs where every other faction has (not talking about reboxing, or finecast to plastic, i mean a new unit entry). DE is the only faction that hasnt gotten anything from their new release in 5th ed in 2010, they have only taken units away.
Nice to see Jain Zar depicted wielding her Triskele, maybe that's a sign the Banshees could be getting this weapon back or will it be relegated to Warhammer Legends forever?
Tyranid Horde wrote: Nice to see Jain Zar depicted wielding her Triskele, maybe that's a sign the Banshees could be getting this weapon back or will it be relegated to Warhammer Legends forever?
No Model No Rules. Jain Zar tm has the Silent Death tm wargear tm so she gets to use an assault 3 strength user ap-3 weapon. Other models purchaseable from games workshop plc do not have that modeled wargear tm and so do not get to have that weapon option.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Nice to see Jain Zar depicted wielding her Triskele, maybe that's a sign the Banshees could be getting this weapon back or will it be relegated to Warhammer Legends forever?
No Model No Rules. Jain Zar tm has the Silent Death tm wargear tm so she gets to use an assault 3 strength user ap-3 weapon. Other models purchaseable from games workshop plc do not have that modeled wargear tm and so do not get to have that weapon option.
This joke was unfunny when people started doing it... ten years ago. Find new material, for the love of God.
PenitentJake wrote: One of the reasons I think they chose Incubi was that they are a mercenary unit; they can roll with a Kabal, a Coven or a Cult. Had they chosen a Kabal unit, people who preferred Cults or Covens would have felt shafted, etc.
Or, you know, they could have actually given DEmultiple units.
While it is too soon to reach the conclusion than multiple kits will be released, it is equally too soon to determine that there will be only one.
Sadly GW hates us, we havent had a new unit in over 9yrs where every other faction has (not talking about reboxing, or finecast to plastic, i mean a new unit entry). DE is the only faction that hasnt gotten anything from their new release in 5th ed in 2010, they have only taken units away.
Well except for Sisters and Necrons (I don't remember any new units since their 5th ed reboot, though admittedly that 5th ed reboot happened after the deldar 5th ed reboot)
Tyranid Horde wrote: Nice to see Jain Zar depicted wielding her Triskele, maybe that's a sign the Banshees could be getting this weapon back or will it be relegated to Warhammer Legends forever?
No Model No Rules. Jain Zar tm has the Silent Death tm wargear tm so she gets to use an assault 3 strength user ap-3 weapon. Other models purchaseable from games workshop plc do not have that modeled wargear tm and so do not get to have that weapon option.
New models, new rules, we haven't seen everything the Banshee kit has to offer.
I hope they get something that let's them break out of the S3 issues they have. Sure the exarch has some tools but you don't pay for the exarch, you pay for the squad.
wuestenfux wrote: Banshees and Incubi. Seem to be some random releases.
Could also be Scorpions and plastic Mandrakes, Fire Dragons and plastic Wracks.
I can hear them coming ...
wuestenfux wrote: Banshees and Incubi. Seem to be some random releases.
Could also be Scorpions and plastic Mandrakes, Fire Dragons and plastic Wracks.
I can hear them coming ...
Wracks have been in plastic for years now.
Grots however. For all that is Vect, please give us plastic Grotesques.
If they make plastic Grotesques the coven part of the line would be almost completely plastic except for urien.
Since art manager had one job and couldn't do it right, they done it right.
Now you’ve seen the amazing illustration, wouldn’t you love to recreate that scene on the battlefield with plastic miniatures? Well, it won’t be long before you can!
The iconic triskele in the Howling Banshee’s right hand can mean only one thing – it’s Jain Zar! But who is her opponent, and – more crucially – how are they able to go blade-to-blade with the legendary Phoenix Lord without being cut to ribbons?
We’ve already shown you the Exarch and Klaivex from the upcoming Howling Banshees and Incubi kits, so make sure you check back with us again on Monday, when we’ll be revealing the first of the duellists! If you thought the Exarch and Klaivex were awesome (which they totally are!), wait until you see who’s coming!
I guess we'll see a new Jain Zar or (probably) Drazhar on Monday, then - mildly surprised that the duel isn't Karandras vs. Drazhar, though.
I'm just hoping she gets actual good rules...and maybe we get a hint of what other Phoenix Lords could benefit from. I have a painted old metal one - won't be bothering with the plastic one (particularly at the assumed $40-45+ pricetag)...but if new rules mean mine suddenly isn't so crap - it'd be nice
Man I wish they'd put us out of our misery and tell us whether or not its just a one off aspect and lord kit release before going back to doing marines for 2 more years or if we get a steady flow or failcast replacements... just tell us... tell ussss!!!!!
But interesting to see Jain Zar as the first PL reboot. maybe they are testing the waters to see how much change they can get away with. I personally really dislike the current look of the sculpt so anything will be an improvement..
W. Artel already has some gorgeous replacement Phoenix Lords, but they're resin - something I'd rather not hassle with (maybe in the future). At $14 a pop they're also a damned bargain compared to the GW upcoming ones.
Stormonu wrote: Looks to me like the sort of art they’ll put on a mini-poster in a boxed set, like Forgebane....
That would be hella cool! Give them an excuse to release a named Archon.
They could really used kill team as a vehicle for releasing Aspects and Phoenix Lords, as well as all the missing DE characters. Blackstone is another vehicle.
This year, we got two campaigns; the first was Vigilus. It was two books. It was like a campaign with training wheels, and you can bet GW ran all the analytics- how many copies of book one, did it spike model sales of the targetted kits, vs copies of book two and its co-relational sales plus engagement in the online tools. Studies revealed that both books sold enough to justify another campaign series, and co-relational sales were high enough to justify taking the risk on releasing models that aren't marines.
If it works, you can count on at least one campaign series a year, where every faction gets something- rules, or models or both. Plus the Kill Team/ Blackstone trick. A handful of codices will be updated every year, and if sales of the Marine Dex + Supplement system are high enough, they'll try to shoehorn others into that system too; they just have to expand other factions enough that there's material to support a re-release in the Dex + Supplement style.
Rules will continue to evolve, slowly and incrementally- first as recommendations in the spring update, then finalized or rejected in CA. This will prevent the need to risk 9th.
Some people won't like it that way, but I think it's brilliant. Even when we traded up to a better edition, the act of hitting a giant reset button always felt like a huge betrayal, whereas updates via CA always feel like a small hit of novelty that doesn't require a massive reinvestment. It's also great for those who collect multiple armies.
Stormonu wrote: Looks to me like the sort of art they’ll put on a mini-poster in a boxed set, like Forgebane....
That would be hella cool! Give them an excuse to release a named Archon.
They could really used kill team as a vehicle for releasing Aspects and Phoenix Lords, as well as all the missing DE characters. Blackstone is another vehicle.
This year, we got two campaigns; the first was Vigilus. It was two books. It was like a campaign with training wheels, and you can bet GW ran all the analytics- how many copies of book one, did it spike model sales of the targetted kits, vs copies of book two and its co-relational sales plus engagement in the online tools. Studies revealed that both books sold enough to justify another campaign series, and co-relational sales were high enough to justify taking the risk on releasing models that aren't marines.
If it works, you can count on at least one campaign series a year, where every faction gets something- rules, or models or both. Plus the Kill Team/ Blackstone trick. A handful of codices will be updated every year, and if sales of the Marine Dex + Supplement system are high enough, they'll try to shoehorn others into that system too; they just have to expand other factions enough that there's material to support a re-release in the Dex + Supplement style.
Rules will continue to evolve, slowly and incrementally- first as recommendations in the spring update, then finalized or rejected in CA. This will prevent the need to risk 9th.
Some people won't like it that way, but I think it's brilliant. Even when we traded up to a better edition, the act of hitting a giant reset button always felt like a huge betrayal, whereas updates via CA always feel like a small hit of novelty that doesn't require a massive reinvestment. It's also great for those who collect multiple armies.
I think PL would have to be gak in 40k in order to fit KT.. If they ahve rules resembling anything thye have now they will be mad OP in KT.
Voss wrote: I'm honestly expecting half the model to be hair.
It goddamn better should be.
Elbows wrote: W. Artel already has some gorgeous replacement Phoenix Lords, but they're resin - something I'd rather not hassle with
Resin types can be very different from each other. Artel W resin is not like GW finecast. It's tough, accurate and easy to work with.
Argive wrote: Man I wish they'd put us out of our misery and tell us whether or not its just a one off aspect and lord kit release before going back to doing marines for 2 more years
French rumours state as much. It's 2 PL and 2 squads for Eldar - then we're back on track.
if the IF rumors are true IFs won't include black templarsd in their book. there's rumors of a BT vs Orks box, so my guess is after eldar it'll be Black Templars vs Orks and likely see the release of information for black templars (expect them to get rules ala black legion in vigil;us ablze) I imagine Orks will get something unique too, even if simply a plastic warboss, although proably more then that.
Elbows wrote: W. Artel already has some gorgeous replacement Phoenix Lords, but they're resin - something I'd rather not hassle with (maybe in the future). At $14 a pop they're also a damned bargain compared to the GW upcoming ones.
He currently has Jain Zar, Karandras, and Fuegan.
Not trying to derail the thread but Artelw resin is top nocht, perfectly detailed (it looks almost plastic) and require no work on it, aside glueing the pieces and can prime just straight away.
@Shadenuat, that pic it's old and dates back to the Fracture of Biel Tan book, so nothing there indicates any new intent as it was used as showing part of the plot going on back then.
was a hint on things to come. Not sure if it's good or bad since well it kinda puts things into heavy Ynnari perspective.
If GW focusses on Ynnari, they are definitely on the wrong track.
The painting scheme is nice and the models look nice on paper.
But they are unplayable from the competitive point of view.
Elbows wrote: Since we're very likely only getting Banshees I can see one of two things happening:
1) We get an aspect for each book of this silly campaign they keep raving about.
2) We get an aspect for each overall campaign, so we'll have a trickle of an aspect/Phoenix Lord every 7-8 months for a while.
I will be shocked if we get a large wave at once though.
3) You get these two items now, alongside of a single book for the campaign, and next year you get a 2.0 Codex with more kits for both Drukhari and Craftworlds.
Not sure why there's this binary option of "we get releases now or never". People seriously aren't thinking that Exarch Powers for the Howling Banshees won't be duplicated for the other Aspects down the road? You're not seeing this as a testbed release?
The Exarch powers honestly don't seem like the best idea to me. It's a rule bloat for the sake of it and it doesn't even fit much into design of aspect warriors who are supposed to be specialists and traditionalists.
Shadenuat wrote: The Exarch powers honestly don't seem like the best idea to me. It's a rule bloat for the sake of it and it doesn't even fit much into design of aspect warriors who are supposed to be specialists and traditionalists.
Traditionally, exarchs had a power list, to further specialize their abilities.
Given that there's an ability for taking an additional Exarch Power, the potential for "no duplicates", and Jain Zar can potentially have her own unique one?
I see it as a way to further customize the Exarchs. I'm glad they get special weapons, but if they're also getting a custom special rule, you could model your Exarch that way.
It's like Warlord Traits. Most armies can give their beatstick one of six (or more) custom rules. Exarchs should be the CWE beatsticks. So having 6 "warlord traits" for an Exarch is really cool.
Now, you could model an Exarch with the "fewer but heavier attacks" with a much heavier "executioner" than an Exarch without it. Same wargear, but potentially different model!
Elbows wrote: Since we're very likely only getting Banshees I can see one of two things happening:
1) We get an aspect for each book of this silly campaign they keep raving about.
2) We get an aspect for each overall campaign, so we'll have a trickle of an aspect/Phoenix Lord every 7-8 months for a while.
I will be shocked if we get a large wave at once though.
3) You get these two items now, alongside of a single book for the campaign, and next year you get a 2.0 Codex with more kits for both Drukhari and Craftworlds.
Not sure why there's this binary option of "we get releases now or never". People seriously aren't thinking that Exarch Powers for the Howling Banshees won't be duplicated for the other Aspects down the road? You're not seeing this as a testbed release?
Because if there's one thing we can all agree on is that Space Marines are guaranteed to get more releases in short order and nobody else is. Now, I have heard rumours of a new Craftworlds 2.0 codex coming next year but haven't heard a thing regarding a Drukhari codex, but either way there's no guarantee one or both factions will get a new codex. As for the test bed thing, thats just pure nonsense, for that to actually work and with the lead times involved it would be 2 years before we see anything out of that, 1 if they really rush it.
was a hint on things to come. Not sure if it's good or bad since well it kinda puts things into heavy Ynnari perspective.
If GW focusses on Ynnari, they are definitely on the wrong track.
The painting scheme is nice and the models look nice on paper.
But they are unplayable from the competitive point of view.
To be fair, GW could easily update the base Ynnari rules at the same time. As it stands they're basically just scrawled on the back of a napkin anyway.
I really don't think it would take that much to make them reasonable:
1) Remove the requirement for Ynnari special characters. This is one of the biggest issues as it forces a mandatory tax not just on every Ynnari army but on every Ynnari detachment. Not to mention being an issue for players like me who hate special characters and want to avoid using them. Maybe say that if you don't include one of the special characters you have to pick a Ynnari model as your Warlord?
2) Change Strength from Death. Practically speaking, Always Strikes First is little more than a ribbon and +1 to hit in melee really isn't anything to write home about. Would it be overpowered to go back to the old rule except that Soulburst only allows a model to move (it doesn't get to shoot or make melee attacks out of activation)? Otherwise, maybe it could grant an extra attack or +1S (something that wouldn't be useless on basically all characters and on all DE models from turn 3 onwards).
3) Replace the Storm of Whispers power with something like Warptime/Twilight Pathways. Especially if Strength from Death doesn't grant any extra movement. Given the powers and stratagems that DE/Eldar/Harlequin units have to give up to become Ynnari, it really seems silly that they don't have a single movement power. Ynnari are supposed to be fast, right?
4) Change some of the currently-worthless Stratagems. A Taste for Death is beyond niche, United in Death requires ~600pts of special characters just to activate it, Shrine of the Whispering God . . . why did Incubi even need to be excluded from Strength from Death in the first place?
To be clear, I'm not saying that fixing these would make Ynnari an amazing tournament army again (and quite honestly I wouldn't want them to be). Rather, I think fixing the above would make them far less awkward and irritating to play, and would help alleviate the feeling that you're handicapping yourself just by using them at all.
was a hint on things to come. Not sure if it's good or bad since well it kinda puts things into heavy Ynnari perspective.
If GW focusses on Ynnari, they are definitely on the wrong track.
The painting scheme is nice and the models look nice on paper.
But they are unplayable from the competitive point of view.
To be fair, GW could easily update the base Ynnari rules at the same time. As it stands they're basically just scrawled on the back of a napkin anyway.
I really don't think it would take that much to make them reasonable:
1) Remove the requirement for Ynnari special characters. This is one of the biggest issues as it forces a mandatory tax not just on every Ynnari army but on every Ynnari detachment. Not to mention being an issue for players like me who hate special characters and want to avoid using them. Maybe say that if you don't include one of the special characters you have to pick a Ynnari model as your Warlord?
2) Change Strength from Death. Practically speaking, Always Strikes First is little more than a ribbon and +1 to hit in melee really isn't anything to write home about. Would it be overpowered to go back to the old rule except that Soulburst only allows a model to move (it doesn't get to shoot or make melee attacks out of activation)? Otherwise, maybe it could grant an extra attack or +1S (something that wouldn't be useless on basically all characters and on all DE models from turn 3 onwards).
3) Replace the Storm of Whispers power with something like Warptime/Twilight Pathways. Especially if Strength from Death doesn't grant any extra movement. Given the powers and stratagems that DE/Eldar/Harlequin units have to give up to become Ynnari, it really seems silly that they don't have a single movement power. Ynnari are supposed to be fast, right?
4) Change some of the currently-worthless Stratagems. A Taste for Death is beyond niche, United in Death requires ~600pts of special characters just to activate it, Shrine of the Whispering God . . . why did Incubi even need to be excluded from Strength from Death in the first place?
To be clear, I'm not saying that fixing these would make Ynnari an amazing tournament army again (and quite honestly I wouldn't want them to be). Rather, I think fixing the above would make them far less awkward and irritating to play, and would help alleviate the feeling that you're handicapping yourself just by using them at all.
It would mean a supplement I guess.
I dont have a dog in this race as personally I have zero interest in ynari as pure CWE is my shtick.
was a hint on things to come. Not sure if it's good or bad since well it kinda puts things into heavy Ynnari perspective.
If GW focusses on Ynnari, they are definitely on the wrong track.
The painting scheme is nice and the models look nice on paper.
But they are unplayable from the competitive point of view.
To be fair, GW could easily update the base Ynnari rules at the same time. As it stands they're basically just scrawled on the back of a napkin anyway.
I really don't think it would take that much to make them reasonable:
1) Remove the requirement for Ynnari special characters. This is one of the biggest issues as it forces a mandatory tax not just on every Ynnari army but on every Ynnari detachment. Not to mention being an issue for players like me who hate special characters and want to avoid using them. Maybe say that if you don't include one of the special characters you have to pick a Ynnari model as your Warlord?
2) Change Strength from Death. Practically speaking, Always Strikes First is little more than a ribbon and +1 to hit in melee really isn't anything to write home about. Would it be overpowered to go back to the old rule except that Soulburst only allows a model to move (it doesn't get to shoot or make melee attacks out of activation)? Otherwise, maybe it could grant an extra attack or +1S (something that wouldn't be useless on basically all characters and on all DE models from turn 3 onwards).
3) Replace the Storm of Whispers power with something like Warptime/Twilight Pathways. Especially if Strength from Death doesn't grant any extra movement. Given the powers and stratagems that DE/Eldar/Harlequin units have to give up to become Ynnari, it really seems silly that they don't have a single movement power. Ynnari are supposed to be fast, right?
4) Change some of the currently-worthless Stratagems. A Taste for Death is beyond niche, United in Death requires ~600pts of special characters just to activate it, Shrine of the Whispering God . . . why did Incubi even need to be excluded from Strength from Death in the first place?
To be clear, I'm not saying that fixing these would make Ynnari an amazing tournament army again (and quite honestly I wouldn't want them to be). Rather, I think fixing the above would make them far less awkward and irritating to play, and would help alleviate the feeling that you're handicapping yourself just by using them at all.
It would mean a supplement I guess.
I dont have a dog in this race as personally I have zero interest in ynari as pure CWE is my shtick.
A Ynnari supplement actually makes a LOT of sense.
Well here she is... I'm liking the model. Not sure how I feel about the rule but looks pretty darn cool!
The fact that her hair has a life of its own and is holding her up seems appropriate haha
yeah it will depend on what else she brings to the table and how many base attacks she has on her data sheet. If she has 4-5 attacks base and on average fights a squad of 5 dudes.. Its a bit pointless. Also, if you charge her into a horde of chaff, why would you need to invest xx amount of points on a special char that clears chaff where scat lasers do it far more efficently?
However I can see it being useful in some situation as longs as she has an additional ability mode for fighting mano y mano (like disarming strike).
I have to say I think the model is glorious! Very impressed with it. Makes my metal Jain zar look like it was chisled out of a rock by an orangutan...
Not sure about new rule though, since Disarming Strike was really good.
Also all the "buy Ynnari please" in the article can go feth themselves.
Agreed on all counts. It's a very nicely done model, clearly the same character but with a massive upgrade in quality. I get the feeling their writers think that the rule's really good, but realistically she probably won't see a benefit from it very often and it's not worth losing Disarming Strike for. And the Ynnari shill just leaves a sour taste.
The new Jain Zar looks brilliant, but just concerned all these banshee releases will be exclusive to a Eldar vs Dark Eldar box set - like last years Vigilius box sets.
The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
SamusDrake wrote: The new Jain Zar looks brilliant, but just concerned all these banshee releases will be exclusive to a Eldar vs Dark Eldar box set - like last years Vigilius box sets.
The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
I think GW planned that banshees and incubi are better with Ynnari, but the problem is, Ynnari can`t boost this units to be useful enough.
Artel cool banshees also could have forced the release.
Led`s hope they get point reduction, since nothing of the release is giving much hype about their effectiveness.
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Fluffwise, I think people are fed up of them being shoehorned into everything.
Remember how when the Swarmlord was first invented and suddenly he was the mastermind behind basically every Tyranid victory?
Rulewise, they lose what is arguably their defining feature (Soulburst) and had it replaced by a rule that's, well, garbage.
What's more, whilst many other armies have stratagems to let them move or fire twice, Ynnari don't have either. They don't even have anything to get an extra move. Also, for a race that's supposedly psyker-heavy they've got basically 0 bonuses for psykers. In fact, most of their powers are just crappier versions of Eldar ones. Hey, how would you like Doom but with worse range and it only works on melee attacks?
Their characters are still costed as though they could fight twice even though they can't anymore (in fact, their characters get basically 0 benefit from the new Strength from Death rules). Oh, and their characters are mandatory in order to make a detachment into a Ynnari one. You've no idea how obnoxious this makes them.
Oh and did I mention that they've only got a couple of pages of stratagems (and can't make use of Eldar/DE/Harlequin ones) and about half of them are niche beyond all reason.
It's a shame because they actually have some fun Relics and Warlord Traits, and a couple of nice psychic powers. But the number of hoops you have to jump through just to use them is very unreasonable and not at all reflective of their strength.
SamusDrake wrote: The new Jain Zar looks brilliant, but just concerned all these banshee releases will be exclusive to a Eldar vs Dark Eldar box set - like last years Vigilius box sets.
The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
The rules are awful, by far the worst traits in the game, completely melee focus in 8th isnt a good trait, and the stratagems are also terrible. Ynnari doesnt work with a Tac list at all, there are no buffs to shooting other than 1 power and 1 stratagem. Cool..... i guess 1/2 my army isnt going to be supported. In 8th that doesnt work at all.
And finally, the Characters are still over costed.
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Personally - I don't like the triumvirate models, and I don't like their recent prominence in Eldar fluff. I've disliked them for those reasons since they were released - I'm an oldschool Eldar fan, and the existence of Ynnari has been like a looming threat to the future of my favourite faction.
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Personally - I don't like the triumvirate models, and I don't like their recent prominence in Eldar fluff. I've disliked them for those reasons since they were released - I'm an oldschool Eldar fan, and the existence of Ynnari has been like a looming threat to the future of my favourite faction.
Like them or not, Ynnari will probably be the core of the aeldar story line. There is not real feature for the CWE, they are just slowly withering away.
SamusDrake wrote: The new Jain Zar looks brilliant, but just concerned all these banshee releases will be exclusive to a Eldar vs Dark Eldar box set - like last years Vigilius box sets.
The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
they represent a change to the setting, a lotta folks who specificly like CRAFTWORLDS eldar are afraid it's going to lead to CWE getting marginalized. One could arguably say Ynnari are the Eldar's Primaris Marines in that they represent a major change to the setting that has some people worry something they like and have invested a lot of time and emotion into is under threat
They represent something like AoS Grand Alliance Happy Friends and nobody likes this.
I've seen it, the plotting and scheming of corporation to make Eldar race into one unified faction with no separate rules, cultures or tastes.
Probably was stopped due to negative reaction to AoS.
I'm not a fan of new Jain. Far too much hair (so much would get in her way in combat), she's going to snap off that contact point easily and often, and the detail quality of her hair and those absurdly-long streamers is rather poor. I'll pick up the Artel version if I ever have a need of one.
I own Artel W Red Witch. It's nearly not as good as on the picture and far from the detail of new GW model. Also has slightly hunched pose - doesn't stand out on the table as much.
Blastaar wrote: I'm not a fan of new Jain. Far too much hair (so much would get in her way in combat), she's going to snap off that contact point easily and often, and the detail quality of her hair and those absurdly-long streamers is rather poor. I'll pick up the Artel version if I ever have a need of one.
.
I imagine it floats around her, psychically. This isn't a joke. The Phoenix lords are pumping with warp energy, they're basically daemon princes.
Blastaar wrote: I'm not a fan of new Jain. Far too much hair (so much would get in her way in combat), she's going to snap off that contact point easily and often, and the detail quality of her hair and those absurdly-long streamers is rather poor. I'll pick up the Artel version if I ever have a need of one.
.
I imagine it floats around her, psychically. This isn't a joke. The Phoenix lords are pumping with warp energy, they're basically daemon princes.
I've seen it, the plotting and scheming of corporation to make Eldar race into one unified faction with no separate rules, cultures or tastes.
Probably was stopped due to negative reaction to AoS.
This is exactly the opposite of everything they've done this edition. Every faction now has sub-factions, not just in fluff, but in rules- a distinction that belonged to marines alone for almost a decade. If anything, I think they'll expand every non-marine army to the the point where they can get away with a dex + supplement system for all factions. You don't do that by taking away craftworld/ coven/ troupe/ kabal osessions, doctrines, subfaction specific warlord traits, strategems and relics. They actually need to build more.
Don't get me wrong, I fear for the future too, and I'm not entirely happy about Ynarri. But I don't think you have to worry about a lack of subfaction differentiation moving forward. If this sells, a DE vs CWE boxed set or an extended Kill Team run might happen next year. I really do believe that GW is going to give real attention to all factions from here on in, and I'd argue we've seen real, tangible evidence of that. We've already got KT rules for Dire Avengers, Banshees and Scorpions including their exarchs. I think that means we'll get Karandras and Asurmen and at least plastic Scorpions. Maybe not until late 2020, but I do believe they're coming.
Wonder if we'll get KT Commander rules for Jainzar in the corresponding White Dwarf. Or maybe KT rules for the missing Aspects (hard, because Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears are either about crossing the table double quick or heavy weapons, which might lead to real problems on a small 4 x 4 table).
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Personally - I don't like the triumvirate models
If you don't mind me asking, what do you dislike about them?
I don't like them either, but then I don't play Ynnari so it's a rather moot point. The lady doesn't look like she belongs on a battlefield with high heels and a huge trained dress. She would fit in an RPG/Inquisitor28 setting, but not on a modern battlefield. The Avatar is too fiddly looking and I've never enjoyed smoke or magic effects being modeled onto things. It also took up a sculpt or space which would have been better served by a normal, real Avatar. The Visarch just has a rather boring look, borders more heavily on looking like an anime fantasy Elf than an actual Eldar model. It's not awful, but it's boring.
Back this up with supremely middling fluff/lore, and GW trying to make a faction from three models, and there's nothing to get excited about there. Much like the full Harlequin army release, it was also more "Hey do you like Eldar? How about all of these Eldar you don't collect".
The new Jain Zar preview rule seems to IMO show confusion about what the role of Banshees are supposed to be. I get that they were going for a storm of blades thing but traditionally at least in terms of background, anti-horde was the Scorpions’ role with Banshees meant to be more the elite killers. To make use of the rule, you’d have to charge Jain Zar into a horde of presumably chaff, against which the Blade of Destruction would be overkill.
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Personally - I don't like the triumvirate models
If you don't mind me asking, what do you dislike about them?
Yvraine - I don't like the headdress, the silly barefoot tiptoe walk or the fact that she's going to battle with massive cumbersome skirts.
Yncarne - Looks far too Slaaneshi to ever belong in an Eldar army.
Visarch - Looks more Drukhari than Craftworld to me, and I'm not really a fan of the Drukhari look. But on the whole, I find him the least bad of the three.
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Personally - I don't like the triumvirate models
If you don't mind me asking, what do you dislike about them?
Yvraine - I don't like the headdress, the silly barefoot tiptoe walk or the fact that she's going to battle with massive cumbersome skirts.
Yncarne - Looks far too Slaaneshi to ever belong in an Eldar army.
Visarch - Looks more Drukhari than Craftworld to me, and I'm not really a fan of the Drukhari look. But on the whole, I find him the least bad of the three.
First one I understand, but the last two issues you have with them visually have fluff reasons behind it. Given that Slaanesh was born of the Eldar, it makes sense that the god that is supposedly destined to defeat Slaanesh and be the salvation of the Eldar race is a reflection of their doom.
Similarly, the Visarch is Drukhari looking precisely because he has personal ties to Yvraine and was formerly her DA exarch mentor before following her to Commorragh when she went to become part of a Wych Cult, basically joining an Incubi shrine so he could keep tabs on her. So that aspect of his life was clearly carried over to combine with his original Craftworld origins.
I don't like them either, but then I don't play Ynnari so it's a rather moot point. The lady doesn't look like she belongs on a battlefield with high heels and a huge trained dress. She would fit in an RPG/Inquisitor28 setting, but not on a modern battlefield.
Agreed about that. I'm largely neutral on the Visarch and the Yncarne but I really can't stand Yvraine's design.
Elbows wrote: The Avatar is too fiddly looking and I've never enjoyed smoke or magic effects being modeled onto things.
That's fair.
I personally don't have an issue with magic effects being modelled onto things. However, in the case of the Yncarne, it seems like the magic effect was really overdone. I think they could easily have easily achieved the same feel without making the model take up about 4 times as much volume as was actually necessary. What's more, if you strip away all the magic effects, I really don't find the Yncarne to be a particularly interesting or impressive model. I wish they'd either made him much more warped/daemonic looking or else made him look more magic/otherwordly in and of himself (like the Avater), rather than just surrounding him with sparkles.
Elbows wrote: It also took up a sculpt or space which would have been better served by a normal, real Avatar.
To be honest, this is how I feel with the Incubi/Drazhar release. I'd have much preferred to see models for some of the units that have been stripped out of the DE codex.
Elbows wrote: The Visarch just has a rather boring look, borders more heavily on looking like an anime fantasy Elf than an actual Eldar model. It's not awful, but it's boring..
Back this up with supremely middling fluff/lore, and GW trying to make a faction from three models, and there's nothing to get excited about there. Much like the full Harlequin army release, it was also more "Hey do you like Eldar? How about all of these Eldar you don't collect".
Yncarne - Looks far too Slaaneshi to ever belong in an Eldar army.
Visarch - Looks more Drukhari than Craftworld to me, and I'm not really a fan of the Drukhari look. But on the whole, I find him the least bad of the three.
SamusDrake wrote: The new Jain Zar looks brilliant, but just concerned all these banshee releases will be exclusive to a Eldar vs Dark Eldar box set - like last years Vigilius box sets.
The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Several reasons for me:
1. Its the catalyst/enabler that blends the Eldar factions into one generic Eldar soup grand alliance style and forces that onto the community because of point 2. CWE and DE are two very different things. To me, its like putting chaos marines and space marines into one army and they all hold hands and get along...
2. The rules were stupid OP for ages, because GW wanted to push the ynnari narrative hard. Its a faction that basically conists of 1 box set...
3. Not particularly fan of the models. The visarch is alright though, made for a great autarch conversion for my CWE so theres that.
The Ynnari models are absolutely amazing, I really like how much intricate detail they have and how wild the designs are. They make the old Eldar models seem a bit plain and boring in comparison.
And whilst I'm not so sure about the whole Ynnari storyline, I really like the various Eldar factions working together. I really hope that with this Eldar wave we get some new dedicated Ynnari models.
Jain Zar look pretty decent though, it is basically exactly her old design except in plastic and with slightly improved proportions. Nothing terribly exiting, but a solid model regardless.
SamusDrake wrote: The Ynnari don't seem to be popular these days. Whats that all about then?
Personally - I don't like the triumvirate models
If you don't mind me asking, what do you dislike about them?
Yvraine - I don't like the headdress, the silly barefoot tiptoe walk or the fact that she's going to battle with massive cumbersome skirts.
Yncarne - Looks far too Slaaneshi to ever belong in an Eldar army.
Visarch - Looks more Drukhari than Craftworld to me, and I'm not really a fan of the Drukhari look. But on the whole, I find him the least bad of the three.
Agreed.
Yncarne looks less like an Eldar Avatar and more like some poor guardian became possessed by a demonette.
Yvraine's attire is completely unsuited to battle.
Visarch is just poorly executed. Too wooden, and the fur texture isn't right.
Blastaar wrote: Yncarne looks less like an Eldar Avatar and more like some poor guardian became possessed by a demonette.
Whilst not a big fan of the triumvirate (too Dark for my taste, the models are nice enough), I think you've hit on why it's actually a successful model I terms of the story, showing why the Ynnari are so controversial (in universe).
That's probably exactly what an Eldar sees too.
I love the Yncarne, one of my favorite models, sadly its extremely over costed. In old Ynnari it was at least playable with the ability to "fight" after teleporting, now you have to be even more extremely careful with it and you can never fight twice. The auras are almost pointless as well. Really its only worth 250pts at the most right now, and even then i don't think i would still play it very much. At least i wouldnt feel like i'm wasting 1/6 of my army.
They represent something like AoS Grand Alliance Happy Friends and nobody likes this.
I've seen it, the plotting and scheming of corporation to make Eldar race into one unified faction with no separate rules, cultures or tastes.
Probably was stopped due to negative reaction to AoS.
I actually like the Ynnari concept and how they established the covens want nothing to do with the Ynnari. Personally I just like evolving fluff even if it shakes things up too much.
You should also revisit AoS. Cities of Sigmar, Mawgore tribes, and Orruks are all consolidating the remaining factions into single factions and most people seem rather happy about it. AoS is in a fantastic place these days.
I think they need to establish the Ynnari as their own faction with their own models, not merely borrowing from the other Eldar factions. The problem though seems to be the capacity of GW to do so given how many existing Craftworld units still need updating from Finecast.
Well, it appears that GW wants to promote Ynnari a bit by releasing new cc units, Banshees and Incubi.
This has been said above and seems reasonable.
But Ynnari is the wrong concept in competitive play these days,
since this edition is geared towards shooting, not assault.
Even if it would, Ynnari would still be too weak.
The really strong Aeldari cc units are coven-based and are not accessible to Ynnari.
Iracundus wrote: I think they need to establish the Ynnari as their own faction with their own models, not merely borrowing from the other Eldar factions. The problem though seems to be the capacity of GW to do so given how many existing Craftworld units still need updating from Finecast.
Ynnari's main problem isn't just that it has no real unique models save for the leader set; but also that the armies it relies on have dated models. Both Dark and regular Eldar have a lot of finecast models in specialist model roles; meanwhile whilst Dark ahs a lot of modern plastics, Craftworld has a smaller amount of modern plastic kits.
The result is that I think Ynnari is simply reflecting that the core Eldar options are in need of an update, which is exactly what GW is doing right now. I think if they update the core forces and get a lot of the finecast out and even update some plastics too (like the old guardians) then Ynnari will pick up naturally on its own even without releasing more specific models for it and even if those that are specific are simply alternate options from the updating Eldar sets (indeed that's a very good way to add models to a faction that is basically a faction merging mechanic)
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it appears that GW wants to promote Ynnari a bit by releasing new cc units, Banshees and Incubi.
This has been said above and seems reasonable.
But Ynnari is the wrong concept in competitive play these days,
since this edition is geared towards shooting, not assault.
Even if it would, Ynnari would still be too weak.
The really strong Aeldari cc units are coven-based and are not accessible to Ynnari.
Ynnari could have been decent if they had passive trait, soulbrust trait and some movement tricks. It`s make me kind of upset that they were reworked intentionally to be bad and space marines have better powers and trick than them.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it appears that GW wants to promote Ynnari a bit by releasing new cc units, Banshees and Incubi.
This has been said above and seems reasonable.
But Ynnari is the wrong concept in competitive play these days,
since this edition is geared towards shooting, not assault.
Even if it would, Ynnari would still be too weak.
The really strong Aeldari cc units are coven-based and are not accessible to Ynnari.
Good point, but you're expecting GW to be gearing towards pushing the competitive edge and that just isn't what they do despite claims to the contrary. They're rolling out a narrative campaign and lots of stuff tied to it. Still, I'd expect some more buffs, but until they get a non-index codex you likely won't see the whole sweep like Marines had.
How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.
If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.
Shadenuat wrote: How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.
If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.
It's a good point that GW is shoring up melee units for Ynnari. That melee is better is somewhat debatable unless you're in the latest batch of marines - then melee is really good. It's getting to melee that is the problem, usually.
I would have loved the Ynnari if they had just been...not...that.
Yvraine: new Lady Malys model.
Visarch: Sure, kind of boring, you could have made him like a new Craftworld named character if you wanted I guess, maybe an Altansar named character to account for his somewhat spooky appearance.
Yncarne: Scrap it entirely, or make it a slaanesh character to release later. Seriously, this thing does not look eldar AT ALL. Release a harlequin character with the eldar triumvirate - either one of the existing ones like Illyana or something new. Hell, if you need one big model per triumvirate give us an avatar of Cegorach or a new Avatar of Khaine!
the_scotsman wrote: I would have loved the Ynnari if they had just been...not...that.
Yvraine: new Lady Malys model.
Visarch: Sure, kind of boring, you could have made him like a new Craftworld named character if you wanted I guess, maybe an Altansar named character to account for his somewhat spooky appearance.
Yncarne: Scrap it entirely, or make it a slaanesh character to release later. Seriously, this thing does not look eldar AT ALL. Release a harlequin character with the eldar triumvirate - either one of the existing ones like Illyana or something new. Hell, if you need one big model per triumvirate give us an avatar of Cegorach or a new Avatar of Khaine!
Yeah, I remember when the models were first leaked/rumoured and many people (including myself) were sure that Yvraine was actually Lady Malys and the Visarch was either Drazhar/Arhea or even Prince Yriel. I kinda wish now that they were those characters, so you could still use them in their respective Factions OR as Ynnari
I disagree with Yncarne not looking "Aeldari". Given that Slaanesh entities look the way they do BECAUSE the Aeldari created Slaanesh means the Yncarne looking like that makes perfect sense. I.e the Yncarne doesn't look Slaaneshi, Slaanesh looks Aeldari. But I will agree that a plastic Avatar of Khaine should have been released instead.
I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me. Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat
I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me.
Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat
Because new units sell much better than updated old units, especially if the update is not utterly stunning and drastically better looking than the old version.
I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me. Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat
Because new units sell much better than updated old units, especially if the update is not utterly stunning and drastically better looking than the old version.
Maybe "understand" was not the right word. I get that much of what GW releases is based on profit. I get that designers get "inspired" to do new things rather than rehash someone's old work. But as a customer, it sucks and I don't like it when new stuff comes out while old stuff is in DIRE need of an update. I'd make those things priority as otherwise it sends the message that GW doesn't really care about the older stuff (which may or may not be true, but c'mon)
I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me.
Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat
Because new units sell much better than updated old units, especially if the update is not utterly stunning and drastically better looking than the old version.
Maybe "understand" was not the right word. I get that much of what GW releases is based on profit. I get that designers get "inspired" to do new things rather than rehash someone's old work.
But as a customer, it sucks and I don't like it when new stuff comes out while old stuff is in DIRE need of an update. I'd make those things priority as otherwise it sends the message that GW doesn't really care about the older stuff (which may or may not be true, but c'mon)
-
The problem is more that the second hand market is so over-saturated with old models that newer models have a hard time competing. Even if they were to release new models with amazing rules people would still mostly go for the second hand market to get it cheaper. It's why it often works better for GW to add a new weapon option to the sprue to boost sales. They did that with the Space Marine updates, Wraithguard, and Drukhari. So for them to reliably update the Aspects to plastic they would have to add options that can sell the kits without being drowned by the second hand ones.
Which is why I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw some new options in the Howling Banshee kit. If they don't add new options that would be an exception to the rule.
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
Well, what are melee units that can still give a reasonable game these days (despite probably not winning big tournaments)?
Triple Flawless Host Disco Lords Tag-teaming with Morty or some Chaos Knights?
Double-Fighting, outflanking Gallants?
Advance-and-Charge or deepstrike-and-reliably-Charge Assault Centurions?
Twisted Helix Aberrants with all GSC tricks behind them?
I’d be happy if Ynnari Aspect Warriors get to see eye to eye with the “melee-side” of good 40K armies, even if none of those currently hold a candle to the shooty game? It the chances of Eldar actually getting rules to go into fisticuffs with the above and come out on top (~50% of the time) seems improbable.
Shadenuat wrote: I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
I don't think they need new options. The options that exist all need to serve a purpose, and aspects could benefit greatly from better rules that allow them to take special actions, not merely tilting the odds in their favor via math. Dire Avengers old Bladestorm rule, for example.
Shadenuat wrote: Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before. The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.
My guess is Nightwing-style went to DE (Razorwing has a very similar shape), and for Craftworlds they created something more "good guys" looking.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, what are melee units that can still give a reasonable game these days (despite probably not winning big tournaments)?
That's a bit narrowish point of view. Melee doesn't have to be an all or nothing berserker unit. Just having some melee, like Catachan, is good. Imagine that all your Guardians are suddenly S4. Now not only you can shoot your catapults, but you can also finish some units after. And then what if you can do Ynnari thing and also add them +1A? Now unit does almost twice what it could before.
Blastaar wrote: I don't think they need new options. The options that exist all need to serve a purpose, and aspects could benefit greatly from better rules that allow them to take special actions, not merely tilting the odds in their favor via math. Dire Avengers old Bladestorm rule, for example.
Yeah, sure. Although some would say the way game is now, with their price DAs should be bladestorming every turn.
Shadenuat wrote: Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were releases YEARS ago when they should have been released.
-
I have allways wonder if GW have sit way to long on elder. One of the big complaints I had personally see over the years, was sitting and waiting for new minis. I myself quit the game waiting for them, and come back years latter.
And even if I do like the models, I really have no use for any of the aspects now as I built craftworlds that utilise them less. And my biel-tan has long been sold off in the hopes I could re do it. So I may be picking up as a painting project but that is as far as I go.
Shadenuat wrote: I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
I disagree with that, hatters will always find reason to hate or rage. New weapons will benefit other players and could help the unit.
The way I see it's similar to why I buy games without DRM. I like to be treated fairly and unit getting upgrade it needs without changing all my previous Banshees to naginatas or something. So if Banshees would be good just with their swords, it's a point for me to go buy some.
Shadenuat wrote: I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
Which. To be honest, wouldn't be the first time.
There're decades worth of posts on Dakka from people claiming GW should just get on with it and do Rubric Terminators or Dark Angels Terminators with Robes or Plastic Greater Daemons or whatever, and any and all of those would outsell "newly invented" stuff by ridiculous orders of magnitude because that's what "the fans" truly want.
And they all eventually came, people shrugged and moved on.
Fact is that with the nostalgia-glasses off, the 90s GW stuff just isn't nearly as good as contemporary stuff. Not just material and technology-wise, but also idea-, concept- and design-wise. And shackling yourself to the old concepts often as not produces tired old stuff in new plastic, instead of excited new miniatures.
Galef wrote: It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
What does it matter? I understand if you'd prefer the look of the Nightwing, but I don't think this is what you're saying. What name the plastic Eldar flyer has is pretty damn immaterial.
Shadenuat wrote: My guess is Nightwing-style went to DE (Razorwing has a very similar shape), and for Craftworlds they created something more "good guys" looking.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Well, what are melee units that can still give a reasonable game these days (despite probably not winning big tournaments)?
That's a bit narrowish point of view. Melee doesn't have to be an all or nothing berserker unit. Just having some melee, like Catachan, is good. Imagine that all your Guardians are suddenly S4. Now not only you can shoot your catapults, but you can also finish some units after. And then what if you can do Ynnari thing and also add them +1A? Now unit does almost twice what it could before.
Blastaar wrote: I don't think they need new options. The options that exist all need to serve a purpose, and aspects could benefit greatly from better rules that allow them to take special actions, not merely tilting the odds in their favor via math. Dire Avengers old Bladestorm rule, for example.
Yeah, sure. Although some would say the way game is now, with their price DAs should be bladestorming every turn.
I think Dire Avengers proc on a 5+ would be neat and not game breaking.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Fact is that with the nostalgia-glasses off, the 90s GW stuff just isn't nearly as good as contemporary stuff
On the contrary, I think classics works great, and was what drawn people in to begin with, and continues to - contemporary is boring, while old things fascinate people. It's just that some people are hypocrites.
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Maybe when Primaris would completely replace old marines, it would make sense to make Aspects highly damaging MEQs.
Galef wrote: It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
What does it matter? I understand if you'd prefer the look of the Nightwing, but I don't think this is what you're saying. What name the plastic Eldar flyer has is pretty damn immaterial.
It matters because we have a situation in which there were already TOO many options and instead of bringing all options somewhat on par with each other (both model-wise and gameplay-wise), GW is just adding more to the heap.
Don't get me wrong, having options is great, but sometimes there are just too many to sort through which can be daunting even to experienced players (especially when an edition change turns "good" options into bad ones and vice versa). It also isn't "fair" that some options seem to forever remain in an inferior medium forcing extra effort be made to get them table-ready.
Given the slow drip of this release, I'm not even expecting all Aspects are getting updated. Just Banshees and Incubi (which aren't even Aspects and had good looking models albeit Failcast).
It would just be so nice for everything to be plastic before new stuff comes out.
Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.
And yeah, we probably won't get all aspects, but as the plastic version seem to be pretty much identical to resin versions, that's hardly not a big deal. Resin is fine for models with no options.
I mean if I could get Dark Reapers that don't look awkward and silly that would be great, but I really don't much care whether the stupid looking Reapers are plastic or resin.
Crimson wrote: Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.
Yes, but around the time the Eldar Flyer was release, several FW only models had been brought over to GW plastic. Nid Trygon, Baneblade, Stompa, etc. So, at the time, it just seem inevitable that the Nightwing would AT LEAST be 1 of the builds in the dual kit.
Crimson wrote: Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.
Yes, but around the time the Eldar Flyer was release, several FW only models had been brought over to GW plastic. Nid Trygon, Baneblade, Stompa, etc. So, at the time, it just seem inevitable that the Nightwing would AT LEAST be 1 of the builds in the dual kit.
-
Or FW is going to die soon and GW moves on not giving us any of the models. B.c of lack of support in 8th, and that insane price hike, along with 3rd party being at worst only about 20% less quality in materials (most are just as good, if not better, i have seen better sadly) for a 1/5 of the cost! Less and less are even buying from FW. I honestly can see FW going away in the next few years unless something changes.
Crimson wrote: Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.
Yes, but around the time the Eldar Flyer was release, several FW only models had been brought over to GW plastic. Nid Trygon, Baneblade, Stompa, etc. So, at the time, it just seem inevitable that the Nightwing would AT LEAST be 1 of the builds in the dual kit.
-
Or FW is going to die soon and GW moves on not giving us any of the models. B.c of lack of support in 8th, and that insane price hike, along with 3rd party being at worst only about 20% less quality in materials (most are just as good, if not better, i have seen better sadly) for a 1/5 of the cost! Less and less are even buying from FW. I honestly can see FW going away in the next few years unless something changes.
I hope not. There is a lot of dragons and amazing minis that I still would like to own one day.
I don't think FW is going away. I think FW is more likely to be dropping 40k and focusing on 30k. Their releases recently have been branching out into lotr and a lot of AOS. For the record I buy stuff from GW & FW and will continue to do so as long as the quality is good. The reason I favour the second-hand market for aspects is that I prefer old metals to current crappy fine cast. If plastic was on offer I would spend the ££...
Regarding the design shake up, I am happy buying rehashed designs with improved quality rather than buying "new shiny" for new shinys sake... I am going to jump into legacy WHFB because of HE rather than AOS because I think flying sharks and turtles are nonsense and want nothing to do with it. If CWE go the way of ynnari and get "freaky" like their slaneshi looking avatar. I will 100% loose interest. If it ain't broke dont fix it. And the CWE recipie aint broke. It just needs to be cooked in a modern kitchen. Ya know? Not saying no to change ever... But I would much rather see exodites/new wraith units/tech than ynarri.
Obviously just my opinions and everyones mileage will vary..
I really liked the new Jain Zar model and I have high expectations about the new Banshees. Now that I am starting a Ulthwe army, I would buy a campaignbox with Eldar and Drukhari. Even I do not play Drukhari, I have a few units for Corsair purposes. I remember the old Forge World list where both, Eldar and Drukhari could be included, even Harlquins.
Crimson wrote: Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.
And yeah, we probably won't get all aspects, but as the plastic version seem to be pretty much identical to resin versions, that's hardly not a big deal. Resin is fine for models with no options.
I mean if I could get Dark Reapers that don't look awkward and silly that would be great, but I really don't much care whether the stupid looking Reapers are plastic or resin.
Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.
The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.
everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.
The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.
It is very easy to see the seams between new and old
Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.
The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.
everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.
The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.
It is very easy to see the seams between new and old
I agree with your overall point, especially about the Autarchs, but I really don't think it applies to Nightwing. It originally looked completely different, and I really don't think there has happened a conceptual fluff mutilation like with so many other aspects of the Eldar lore. Eldar can have many different fighter crafts, and what their names are doesn't really matter.
Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.
The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.
everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.
The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.
It is very easy to see the seams between new and old
I agree with your overall point, especially about the Autarchs, but I really don't think it applies to Nightwing. It originally looked completely different, and I really don't think there has happened a conceptual fluff mutilation like with so many other aspects of the Eldar lore. Eldar can have many different fighter crafts, and what their names are doesn't really matter.
You're not wrong. I kind of went off on a tangential hobby horse.
So long as they acknowledge the existence of the. Nightwing and don't just remove it. It's about time everyone else got a wide selection of options like marines and guard do
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Shadenuat wrote: Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.
-
You can’t on one hand complain about the lack of plastic updates to old models then on the other not purchase new plastic updates for old models when they are released. This makes absolutely no sense.
GW are a business first and foremost, if you’re an Eldar player and you choose not to purchase the new Banshees you are sending the message that you don’t care about updated, plastic models for them, by proxy other aspect warriors and even older units from another factions.
If you decide to do that you have absolutely no right to complain when GW decide that people don’t care about updating older models and stop doing it. It is the message you have sent them through your buying decisions.
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...
Crimson wrote: Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.
And yeah, we probably won't get all aspects, but as the plastic version seem to be pretty much identical to resin versions, that's hardly not a big deal. Resin is fine for models with no options.
I mean if I could get Dark Reapers that don't look awkward and silly that would be great, but I really don't much care whether the stupid looking Reapers are plastic or resin.
Nightwing is an EPIC model and has been the Eldar supremecy fighter for 25 years. Forgeworld simply converted it to 40k scale, like they did with every vehicle they created for the first 15 years of their existence.
The problem the Eldar are running into is they were conceptualised too completely. Everything fit neatly together, all the exarch concepts, aspect concepts etc were very clear and logical.
everything GW has produced for the Eldar that is new has had to be shoehorned into a very complete concept and it looks poor by comparison.
The autarch is the worst example of this, as it retconned the epic Armageddon autarch which itself was a retcon (but a minor one) of the origjnal menshad korum exarch.
It is very easy to see the seams between new and old
I think that is why they are using the Ynnari - a mechanism to open up the design style of the Eldar. I've felt that the Eldar design style has got a bit too sterile - I prefer the original feel of Eldritch weaponry, tech looking more like witchcraft. I'm hoping design wise it lets them bring back ancient weapons and variety. We haven't seen what else the Banshee kit offers [they said their were other options to be revealed].
I'm interested to see what they do with the other aspects- Banshees and Dragons stayed pretty much the same [ignoring the 3rd ed sculpts]. But Reapers and Scorpions have changed a good bit from their original release. Plus Spears haven't really had a proper kit [I don't like the current kit at all].
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...
Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.
You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.
That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.
Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.
Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".
All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.
Shadenuat wrote: Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before. The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.
-
You can’t on one hand complain about the lack of plastic updates to old models then on the other not purchase new plastic updates for old models when they are released. This makes absolutely no sense.
GW are a business first and foremost, if you’re an Eldar player and you choose not to purchase the new Banshees you are sending the message that you don’t care about updated, plastic models for them, by proxy other aspect warriors and even older units from another factions.
If you decide to do that you have absolutely no right to complain when GW decide that people don’t care about updating older models and stop doing it. It is the message you have sent them through your buying decisions.
So to clarify, I'd LOVE to buy every single plastic Aspect box, paint them all up and put them on a huge diorama in a display case. But I won't be doing so for several reasons:
A) I can't afford it right now. I have 2 teenage boys and provide most of the income for my household, so we don't exactly have cash to just throw around B) Because I work a full time job to provide for A, I don't have a lot of time to assemble and paint big projects. I am constantly painting stuff on a weekly basis, but often just a handful of models at a time and often helping my boys paint their own stuff (which they buy themselves with the small allowance I can afford to give them) C) I've been playing Eldar for a decade and already have an extensive collection to build sufficient armies for both casual and competitive games with no more room in my case for tons more Infantry.
So please, before you go on a rant about someone else's motivations "not making sense", or having "no right to complain", please try to understand that not everyone is in the same circumstances and not everyone's "buying decision" is based on whether they want to buy that kit and support GW. Sometimes real-world concerns affect those decisions. That is part of why I wanted these YEARS ago, when I could afford them.
Daba wrote: Eldar were also the ancient advanced technology faction so a bodysuit power armour should really be standard.
In fact, the description for aspect armour literally said something like "Aspect armour is the equivalent of Powered Armour".
Which is why Dragons, Scorpions, Reapers and Spears all have 3+. It makes sense for Banshees and Hawks to have 4+ as they need to be lighter/swifter, but I 100% agree DAs should share the 3+ that other Aspects have. Considering the AP system of 8E, a 3+ is hardly what it was in prior editions and a 4+ is even worse. 11ppm would still be fine since Tactical Marines are now 12ppm and got tons of bonuses
Daba wrote: Eldar were also the ancient advanced technology faction so a bodysuit power armour should really be standard.
In fact, the description for aspect armour literally said something like "Aspect armour is the equivalent of Powered Armour".
Which is why Dragons, Scorpions, Reapers and Spears all have 3+. It makes sense for Banshees and Hawks to have 4+ as they need to be lighter/swifter, but I 100% agree DAs should share the 3+ that other Aspects have. Considering the AP system of 8E, a 3+ is hardly what it was in prior editions and a 4+ is even worse. 11ppm would still be fine since Tactical Marines are now 12ppm and got tons of bonuses
-
Is`t toughness the armor that stop you getting hit and save the ability to ignore pain and damage ?
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...
Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.
You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.
That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.
Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.
Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".
All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.
Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.
Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.
In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.
Ramming Serpents into everything is an example of speed used as defence. Or kiting enemy assault units. Speed is good.
Aspects looked quite fine before all the rule bloat, cheap infantry doing similar things or better and infantry blobs with buffs hitting on 3s or 2s re-rolling etc. Hell now ultramarine tactical is only 1 point more expensive than Avenger, can move and shoot, with extra AP with doctrine, has more S, A, T and better save.
And before new SM Codex I'd argue Avenger was a better infantry.
Karol wrote: I think most stats GW gives to stuff that already existed is based on copy past, and not actual rethinking of rules.
Also isn't the scorpion armour the heavies eldar produce, so only the physicaly strongest eldar can use it?
"Heaviest" Eldar produce doesn't mean "heavy". Just not as light as other Eldar armors.
Also, "heavy" isn't always about weight. A guy in a loincloth with a spear is "heavy" infantry. A modern infantryman carrying a bazooka wearing body armor is "light" infantry.
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...
Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.
You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.
That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.
Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.
Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".
All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.
Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.
Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.
In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.
Sure, there's a lot less JSJ (move-shoot-move) in the game now, compared to previous editions. But moving, shooting, then retreating was only one way to use speed. As outlined above, speed can be used to engage a smaller local enemy force with a larger force. Which can be used as a defense mechanism.
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...
Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.
You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.
That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.
Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.
Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".
All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.
Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.
Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.
In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.
That's one of the major loss from moving from 7th to 8th, the loss of run after shooting eldar inf had, now it's advance and ignore it's drawbacks for shooting, I would love having something similar like if this unit didn't advance on it's movement phase it can move 1d6 inches after shooting.
Daba wrote: All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.
Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.
This would work only by point increase.
So better not.
I would argue that max sized 10 T3 1 W unit with 18" is overcosted as is.. a save would maybe make them good.
The tactics to play Aeldari is different. You cannot count on armor save. One often says that speed is their armor.
In terms of Dire Avengers, the enemy may have juicier targets and leave the unit untouched.
Or it shoots this unit and leaves juicier targets untouched.
Which would be great if speed actually had a mechanical effect so that speed instead of armour actually meant something...
Speed can be of great importance. In a very terrain-dense board, that's not oversaturated with units, you can use DAs (and most other Aspects) to great effect. DAs will lose a firefight head-on against most other troops (but at least it's better than Index - didn't they lose firefights to Choppa Boyz point-for-point then?). But CWE, used "right" doesn't fight head-on.
You spend a couple turns positioning, ensuring nothing "soft" is exposed - sure, your opponent can put some dakka into your Serpents or some longshots at some backfield Rangers/Guardians, but nothing Rapid Fire into your infantry. Through a combination of LOS, Reserves, and transports. Then, when everything is in place, you engage as little of the enemy is possible with as much of your army as possible. If you pull it off right, you should have multiple units engage a flank or spearhead all on the same turn. If you can bring half your army down on a quarter of theirs, you should kill that quarter. Done right, if you hit a flank or spearhead well, the remainder of their army should be outside effective range and/or outside LOS - so you should take minimal retaliation. Then you withdraw, reform, and do it again.
That's how CWE is *supposed* to work. Hence why Grav Tanks and Wraiths should be nigh unkillable with low firepower, whereas their infantry should be MEQ-priced GEQ-survivable short range specailists. Why Rangers should be hard to kill but low firepower, but Guardians should hit like hell but evaporate like Guardsmen. Why most CWE should use Assault not RF weapons.
Unfortunately, the game doesn't really support this that much. The boards are far too oversaturated with units, so there aren't "safe" areas. The game is too killy, so if you're not engaging T1, you're at a massive disadvantage. Tourny terrain has to be uniform, so there's no uniqueness or surprises, and due to scale there's too little terrain on those tables to really do this.
Then there's the how CWE were balanced. Our stuff is often either overtuned or undertuned, so there's usually something that's too good at killing and surviving. The buff structure CWE has applies to a target unit, so there's incentive to use a deathstar over combined arms. It's too hard to evade the enemy, so a combined arms list too easily loses it's lynchpin before the engagement. And CWE got WWP, so they can't really balance CWE units around "Sure they hit hard if you use them right", because any one or two units are 1CP/3CP away from just "And then I do what I want".
All that said, Banshees have a very important place if/when CWE does work, Banshees have a great place. They can tie up a unit/units that you aren't able to otherwise neutralize. Or they lead the charge, followed by the rest of the Aspects (you'd be surprised how much damage 15 Dire Avengers with Exarchs can do to the survivors of their dakka, if there are some Banshees to spearhead the charge, and a beatstick to clean up). It won't happen (much) at top tables in a tourny, but in friendly or low-points games, it's a lot of fun.
Regarding the speed aspect, I think a big part of the problem is that there's a specific order in which models have to act: Move --> Psychic --> Shoot --> Melee.
Hence, outside of one specific stratagem, once a model has moved into position to shoot it can't then move back again. Nor can a model that remains stationary elect to shoot and then move. What's more, even psychic powers have to be cast before a unit shoots, so Warptime and the like can't be used to reposition a model after it's shoot/fought.
In essence, speed is rarely ever usable as a defence because whilst it can be used to get models into range of the enemy, it can't then be used to get them out of range of the enemy's weapons.
Wow, it's almost as though these two posts showed off the problem with the IGOUGO system!
Shadenuat wrote: Ramming Serpents into everything is an example of speed used as defence. Or kiting enemy assault units. Speed is good.
Aspects looked quite fine before all the rule bloat, cheap infantry doing similar things or better and infantry blobs with buffs hitting on 3s or 2s re-rolling etc. Hell now ultramarine tactical is only 1 point more expensive than Avenger, can move and shoot, with extra AP with doctrine, has more S, A, T and better save. And before new SM Codex I'd argue Avenger was a better infantry.
Were 2 DAs worth 1 intercessor even before the update? I would say no. And I think one DA was not worth a tac marine point for point even. With the new SM codex DA Is most definitely left miles in the dust no matter how you look at it.
Im optimistic for some adjustments in CA. Now that Ynarri is no longer an issue and souping has been limited through psychic limitations etc. I really hope CWE will get some across the board point drops. Would be nice when you are running something other than 3-6 fliers to not feel like you're obviously gimping/holding back your army.
I am most curious about the full scope of Banshees and jain zar rules and points.
Who thinks she will go up in point ? Arguably disarming strike was better than what they teased so if she's same points that would be a bit meh.
The people we play against love the fact that it's gone.
Things like our JSJ stratagem are one of the few places that makes me like CP/stratagems. It allows us to move-shoot-move iconically, but in limited fashion and at cost.
Unfortunately, it mostly boils "Super perfect at combat" down from "Can move, shoot, then finish moving" to "Move really scary fast".
Argive wrote: Were 2 DAs worth 1 intercessor even before the update?
Well in 5 men squad with Exarch, you get equivalent of 6 DAs: 56:6 is 9.6 ppm. Of course, now that Intercessors with stratagems can unleash some massive firepower and are tougher and many times better in melee it's not much of a competition.
Bharring wrote: The people we play against love the fact that it's gone.
People love that 7th Spiders are gone. Nobody were mad about Spiders moving 2d6 in Assault phase in older editions. They needed that because of their 12" guns. They still do. Used sparsely for units that need it, it's not broken.
Arguably 10 Reapers shooting and moving for 1CP is worse actually.
2nd edition had shooting to-hit modifiers based on how fast the target moved. The cut-off to get a -1 to-hit was 10", and running Eldar could just hit 10" (when running humans got 8"). Grav-tanks that moved even more quickly could get -2 and then there were holofields that doubled the to-hit modifier. That actually made speed equate effectively to armor.
That hasn't been present in later editions so no matter how fast the Eldar moved they were hit just as easily as anyone else, and had flimsy armor (for the fluff background of Eldar valuing speed as a form of armor). You were either in LOS and in range and a viable target or you were out. Great speed meant either closing the distance to charge the enemy in one go before they could shoot, or move shoot move in order to get back out of range or LOS. There was no in between.
Maneuvering should be rewarded for all factions. Obviously double on that for factions like Eldar, but I think nobody should be punished for moving their units around. Only some very specific units like artillery maybe should be. But then you don't want those near the enemy anyway since if they get charged they can't shoot. And they usually have slow base movement speed anyway.
Yep, 2nd edition had far more modifiers. Even though you could select to go on Overwatch at normal ballistic skill, there were just enough penalties to this:
-If an enemy was charging you, it was -1, I believe
-If an enemy unit moved out of cover, -1
-If an enemy moved into cover, -1 (and yes, this stacked, so if an enemy unit moved from cover to cover, you'd be -2 to hit)
etc.
Movement and charging was also double your base speed, so Eldar in general had a continual advantage instead of charging the same as ...well, every other unit in the game. Initiative was even more prevalent than later editions, and was used to avoid a number of weapons, and vehicle ramming, etc. So again high speed and high initiative actually felt like it.
