Shadenuat wrote: Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.
So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.
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You can’t on one hand complain about the lack of plastic updates to old models then on the other not purchase new plastic updates for old models when they are released. This makes absolutely no sense.
GW are a business first and foremost, if you’re an Eldar player and you choose not to purchase the new Banshees you are sending the message that you don’t care about updated, plastic models for them, by proxy other aspect warriors and even older units from another factions.
If you decide to do that you have absolutely no right to complain when GW decide that people don’t care about updating older models and stop doing it. It is the message you have sent them through your buying decisions.
So to clarify, I'd LOVE to buy every single plastic Aspect box, paint them all up and put them on a huge diorama in a display case. But I won't be doing so for several reasons:
A) I can't afford it right now. I have 2 teenage boys and provide most of the income for my household, so we don't exactly have cash to just throw around
B) Because I work a full time job to provide for A, I don't have a lot of time to assemble and paint big projects. I am constantly painting stuff on a weekly basis, but often just a handful of models at a time and often helping my boys paint their own stuff (which they buy themselves with the small allowance I can afford to give them)
C) I've been playing Eldar for a decade and already have an extensive collection to build sufficient armies for both casual and competitive games with no more room in my case for tons more Infantry.
So please, before you go on a rant about someone else's motivations "not making sense", or having "no right to complain", please try to understand that not everyone is in the same circumstances and not everyone's "buying decision" is based on whether they want to buy that kit and support GW. Sometimes real-world concerns affect those decisions.
That is part of why I wanted these YEARS ago, when I could afford them.
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So sell your old models to fund purchasing the new banshees if you want them?
It was hardly a rant, I’m simply explaining how your actions are potentially driving GW to do things that you actively dislike.
I don’t know your personal circumstances but I do think everyone in the hobby knows how expensive it is and I also know that this fact hasn’t changed over the years since you’ve been collecting Eldar. I also know that if every Craftworld player makes the same decision as you, GW will not make any more plastic aspect warriors, which is presumably not what you want.
It just strikes me as very odd - like someone who complains about global warming while making no attempt to correct it through changing their actions.
My interest in Eldar getting plastic kits used to be for personal interest. But with GW"s direction and my fading interest in 40K I'm no longer worrying about it. I am happy for current and future Eldar players though.
I'd like to see future normal Eldar (Craftworld) players have a proper line of plastic miniatures for the primary fighting force of their faction. If the rules become better maybe I'll get to watch them in battle reports online at least!
Pilum wrote: Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...
Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.
As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.
I too was surprised by the 'conservative' design but in a good way (I'm not much of a fan of GW's 'more is more' aesthetic direction in the last 10 years). My only dislike is the obligatory scenery stand. No doubt we'll have one hanging upside down from the broken arch of a webway portal.
I am also fairly certain that this won't be a dual kit. This doesn't necessarily mean there won't be any dual kits but I'm leaning towards it being unlikely. The unchanged aesthetic of the Banshees makes it less likely that other aspects will be changed radically and a degree of homogenisation would be required for a dual kit. Personally I don't think there's anyone at GW presently who could improve on Jes Goodwin's original designs.
Regarding the power level, Banshees were pretty strong in the 3rd ed meta (when power weapons were only generally accessible to characters and squad leader), especially when you could assault from transports and entry/exit points weren't a thing - the issue is that's where they have been stuck for the last 20 years. I quite liked the 7th ed version mainly because they were so cheap and so fast.
Pilum wrote: Well, looks like I have a hat to eat. I seriously thought we'd never see an Aspect - or even Classic Eldar - update and they'd all get folded into Ynnari. Of course, the annoying thing is I have a ton of the aspects in That Material already and space isnt infinite...
Also surprisingly deflated at how conservative the design is. I mean - yay, they'll fit nicely into the existing force, but ... a feeling of "is that it?" remains. Which is odd, seeing as I've been severely in love with the Aspects since the original Dwarf article.
As for a hope? Give the girls the old power sword back. The old S5 -3(?) save monster from RT/2nd. They never recovered from being nerfed to S:User in 3rd. Not sure they'll get it though.
I too was surprised by the 'conservative' design but in a good way (I'm not much of a fan of GW's 'more is more' aesthetic direction in the last 10 years). My only dislike is the obligatory scenery stand. No doubt we'll have one hanging upside down from the broken arch of a webway portal.
I am also fairly certain that this won't be a dual kit. This doesn't necessarily mean there won't be any dual kits but I'm leaning towards it being unlikely. The unchanged aesthetic of the Banshees makes it less likely that other aspects will be changed radically and a degree of homogenisation would be required for a dual kit. Personally I don't think there's anyone at GW presently who could improve on Jes Goodwin's original designs.
Regarding the power level, Banshees were pretty strong in the 3rd ed meta (when power weapons were only generally accessible to characters and squad leader), especially when you could assault from transports and entry/exit points weren't a thing - the issue is that's where they have been stuck for the last 20 years. I quite liked the 7th ed version mainly because they were so cheap and so fast.
Yea, i`m thinking of getting the old model for play and get the new for the collection, i`m scared the new model will be to fragile.
I too am hoping Howling Banshees either get a heap of extra attacks or much better strength. It’s sad to see them barrel roll into combat like hyper speed beast just to implode as soon as they hit into any enemies head first.
@ An Actual Englishman: I highly doubt that my "actions" are going to influence GW in this case. Plastic Aspects have been a demand from the player base for at lease a decade. They will sell like hot-cakes and my lack of buying them won't even be a blip on GW's radar. Although normally, I'd agree with you. That's why I went out and bought a Webway Gate, despite its rules being rubbish. I want GW to make more non-Imperial terrain, so I "voted" with my wallet.
I'd like to continue explaining why it's still important to me that all models in GWs range be made into plastic BEFORE new units are made (if nothing else but for a sense of completion for the range as a whole), but it doesn't seem like it will achieve anything. This is the internet, so I'll have to accept your opinion is valid even though it doesn't seem like you will ever acknowledge mine as such.
As we get closer and closer to this release, it's starting to look more like Banshees/Incubi (plus Characters) will be the only Aeldari released for a while. Or GW will continue the "slow drip" style of releases as they've done with Marines. Either way, GW seems to already have things planned out for the near future. If the other Aspects aren't already being designed, I doubt the sales of Plastic Banshees are going to affect that one way or another.
Galef wrote: @ An Actual Englishman: I highly doubt that my "actions" are going to influence GW in this case. Plastic Aspects have been a demand from the player base for at lease a decade. They will sell like hot-cakes and my lack of buying them won't even be a blip on GW's radar. Although normally, I'd agree with you. That's why I went out and bought a Webway Gate, despite its rules being rubbish. I want GW to make more non-Imperial terrain, so I "voted" with my wallet.
I'd like to continue explaining why it's still important to me that all models in GWs range be made into plastic BEFORE new units are made (if nothing else but for a sense of completion for the range as a whole), but it doesn't seem like it will achieve anything.
This is the internet, so I'll have to accept your opinion is valid even though it doesn't seem like you will ever acknowledge mine as such.
As we get closer and closer to this release, it's starting to look more like Banshees/Incubi (plus Characters) will be the only Aeldari released for a while. Or GW will continue the "slow drip" style of releases as they've done with Marines.
Either way, GW seems to already have things planned out for the near future. If the other Aspects aren't already being designed, I doubt the sales of Plastic Banshees are going to affect that one way or another.
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Take the silver lining. If the Aspects had been made plastic years ago they wouldn't be in the style of the new kits coming out. Eldar are getting the bleeding edge just like marines even if it's not the whole sweep right now.
Shadenuat wrote: How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.
If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.
The problem isn't that melee doesn't deal damage, the problem is that its hard to get melee units into combat. And when they do get into combat the charged unit just ups and leaves and lets the rest of the army shoot up the poor assault units.
In most cases you pretty much have 1 turn to deal as much damage as possible, and hope you can engage as many units as possible to mitigate any retaliatory fire. If you can't do that then you might as well have spend the points on something with a gun.
The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent
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Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent
-
Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?
Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent
-
Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?
Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.
Or you don't and keep fighting. Ergo consequences to the choice of falling back.
Anyway. Not sure if there is an appropriate thread for proposing rules regarding falling back in the Proposed rules section. Maybe there ought to be if anyone wants to check it. Its a long discussion in an of itself not related to Psychic awakening.
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent
-
Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?
Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.
Or you don't and keep fighting. Ergo consequences to the choice of falling back.
Anyway. Not sure if there is an appropriate thread for proposing rules regarding falling back in the Proposed rules section. Maybe there ought to be if anyone wants to check it. Its a long discussion in an of itself not related to Psychic awakening.
and again that is making units that are good at shooting better.
Units like aggressors or flamers charging so they can get free kills and punish untis that are send to CC them but can`t get rid of them.
For instance you charge with banshes to stop the aggressors to shoot, but banshees cant kill them, you get into position with shooting unit and want to fall back and suddenly you are using your unit of banshess to free shooting.
So i say no free shooting in the enemy turn.
Tiberius501 wrote: You should have to roll off, like the wytches ability, to get out of combat, imo.
And/or take "overwatch" on the way out.
Most dedicated melee units don`t have good range weapons, extra shooting will benefit units with decent guns that are able to survive close combat.
I believe the intention is a melee equivalent of overwatch, where retreating from combat gets you hit by the enemy in melee as you turn tail
Combine it with double attack rule from stratagems or special abilities and it will probably be broken.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote: The wyches no retreat rule is what makes wyches special. Give that rule to everyone, and wyches are no longer the DE assault specialists.
As for overwatch, it can be mitigated by some units like Banshees; that's the rule that makes those units combat specialists.
There was a thread on here about units losing their roles, and everyone complained about how they thought units were losing their niches and becoming more generic.
Yet here, we have two suggestions that would remove niche roles and abilities. You see how slippery the slope is? I really don't envy GW trying to keep so many people with such a divergence of gaming preferences happy.
In ETC melee armies did well, good heavy terrain can make them really good. There is reason they created stupid magic boxes in ITC. Some extra terrain rules can really do more for melee than overbuffing things.
Yes I agree but a single attack per model could work, or attacks by models within 1"/base to base only hitting on 6. You don't want to take 1,000,000 attacks from 20 boys/genestealers/intercessors.
But either a single attack hitting at normal WS, per BTB/within 1" model or all attacks hitting 6s only could work.. But as with overwatch ROF is a an issue in 8th ed but I don't think ti would be broken.
Alternatively a choice to fire pistols instead of making attacks would be super thematic/fluffy. As the enemies turn to flee like the cravens they are, they get blapped in the back by pistol fire! yeeeesss!!!
Anyway we are drifting into proposed rule territory so lets not delve too much further down this train of though and stick to talking about how awesome jain zar looks
I really like the idea that any model within 1" of an enemy unit falling back gets 1 free hit roll with either a melee weapon using WS or a pistol using BS.
It's thematic and gives a consequence for falling back. And by limiting it to only 1 roll per model within 1", it isn't too powerful of a deterrent
-
Well what will happened if you fall back from daemon flamers that are pistols d6 ?
Then they get the D6 number. Not hard to figure out.
Or you don't and keep fighting. Ergo consequences to the choice of falling back.
Anyway. Not sure if there is an appropriate thread for proposing rules regarding falling back in the Proposed rules section. Maybe there ought to be if anyone wants to check it. Its a long discussion in an of itself not related to Psychic awakening.
and again that is making units that are good at shooting better.
Units like aggressors or flamers charging so they can get free kills and punish untis that are send to CC them but can`t get rid of them.
For instance you charge with banshes to stop the aggressors to shoot, but banshees cant kill them, you get into position with shooting unit and want to fall back and suddenly you are using your unit of banshess to free shooting.
So i say no free shooting in the enemy turn.
But if you combine it with making CC units like Banshees actually good at CC - in this case you might want them to stay in combat so they could continue to chop the agressors apart and it's the marine player who wants to fall back but risks extra attacks from the banshees in order to do so. Banshees aren't supposed to be a unit that's only good for tying up an enemy unit and stopping it from shooting for a turn, that's just a side-effect of the way their rules have been cocked up.
Also note that the proposal was for melee or pistol attacks - so not for things like flamers. I think it's a good idea - it's far too easy to run away from close combat with this edition, and surely the unit that you're running away from isn't going to miss the opportunity to stab you in the back as you try to run away. Actually gives some consequences to trying to disengage. And generally it's going to be the shooty units that want to get away from the CC units - so it's a boost to CC units in a shooting-dominated edition of the game.
Anyway we're getting somewhat off topic here, let's talk about them cool new models.
I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.
Sarigar wrote: I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.
I hope so!
Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.
All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.
Sarigar wrote: I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.
I hope so!
Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.
All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Just an extra upgrade sprue to put in with some windrider sprues, just need some specific helmets, maybe torsos, laser lances, Exarch options and that's about it. Maybe one or two alternative decorative bits to stick the bikes with whatever room is left on the sprue.
I think it's one of the more needed aspect updates too, because I find it rather jarring that the shining spears still use the outdated jetbike models when we have improved jetbikes for the windriders.
Sarigar wrote: I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.
I hope so!
Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.
All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Just an extra upgrade sprue to put in with some windrider sprues, just need some specific helmets, maybe torsos, laser lances, Exarch options and that's about it. Maybe one or two alternative decorative bits to stick the bikes with whatever room is left on the sprue.
I think it's one of the more needed aspect updates too, because I find it rather jarring that the shining spears still use the outdated jetbike models when we have improved jetbikes for the windriders.
Then we’d need to get the windrider autarch a new ride, and we could retire the old bikes.
I wonder if they could do something like they did with the custodes bikes, where you had the option to build a character out of the unit box?
A guy can dream...
Edit: Even if they don’t “officially” do it, a plastic shining spear is only a head swap, back banner, and a paint job away from being an autarch.
I wonder if the new eldar are going to be taller. SoB makes classic marines look small, and the eldar special character are much bigger then the other eldar models. Plus banshees seem to be mounted on scenic bases, this could make other models standing next to them look like children.
Elbows wrote: The BSF Ranger is...not short, so I absolutely suspect some embiggening will occur...somewhat sadly. Who knows, could be wrong.
Don't even start me on the BSF ranger... Most regrettable £10 I ever spent..
P.S. I've seen a mention on one of the other rumour threads that CWE will get updates in the campaign books but also a new codex is on the way that will be the same as Marines 2.0 with each craftworlds getting its identity by having craftworld specific strats, relics & traits. Mind this is totally just a rumour but it could be we are next in line to get a new book.
However I see problem with this as the vanilla SM book is just that.. vanilla. The supplements give SM their true "edge of power creep" so I'm dubious about this, because we'd need supplements too and Im not about that life but to be honest don't think GW have enough love/interest for xeno factions to give us supplements. S not sure how much I believe this.
Shadenuat wrote: How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.
If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.
The problem isn't that melee doesn't deal damage, the problem is that its hard to get melee units into combat. And when they do get into combat the charged unit just ups and leaves and lets the rest of the army shoot up the poor assault units.
In most cases you pretty much have 1 turn to deal as much damage as possible, and hope you can engage as many units as possible to mitigate any retaliatory fire. If you can't do that then you might as well have spend the points on something with a gun.
It doesn´t matter if cc sucks or not. I just want a bunch of new plastic Scorpions to paint which look great and don´t fall over, if you look at them for just a second.
Sarigar wrote: I'm of the opinion we will get most, if not all, new Aspect Warrior kits over the next 6-12 months. I've played them since Rogue Trader and still have and use the original metal versions from that era. I will definitely be in line buying updated versions, especially Swooping Hawks as they have been my favorite, aesthetically, since their original release. Jes Goodwin's designs have held up so well over nearly 30 years.
I hope so!
Would be nice to get a new Shining spears kit first...I think it would be the easiest to update.
All they have to do is do a new rider sprue as the bikes don't need updating IMO.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Just an extra upgrade sprue to put in with some windrider sprues, just need some specific helmets, maybe torsos, laser lances, Exarch options and that's about it. Maybe one or two alternative decorative bits to stick the bikes with whatever room is left on the sprue.
I think it's one of the more needed aspect updates too, because I find it rather jarring that the shining spears still use the outdated jetbike models when we have improved jetbikes for the windriders.
I think Jes is more likely to design an entirely new frame, probably a new design of bike for the spears. When he showed the initial prototype he mentioned imagining different build of bike - like scout bikes for example. The harlequin bikes show this.
But yes I'd love proper Shining Spears - never liked the current kit.
I feel his rules are a bit stronger than Jain Zars. but we don't know what her gear is.
Also according to the new clip, the "phoenix will fall" suggests Jain zar will loose to drahzar..
Personally as an Eldar player obviously I take issue with that.
Also, the short story is all about hat Eldar going into battle to die feel good about that life choice rather than fight and live... because of ynnari malarkey.... ugh..
petrov27 wrote: wow there is a lot going on with that helmet - not even sure what is happening with the center bit between the horns - armored top-knot maybe?
Gonna be pretty crap if this guy kills Jain
They are CWE soul stones, they are his trophies. It might be his old one on his helm as he might has been a CWE before, or its just one he is proud of who he killed.
Very beautiful model, at the same level to Lelith Hesperax or more. About the duel, I think that Phoenix lords are immortal, when they die, they can reawake again later.
Spoiler:
Jain Zar died at the end of the Night lords trilogy, in fact, destroyed by Talos, the Soul hunter. And that is decades ago in the lore.
God I was really, really looking forward to the release of drazhar, I love that character.
I am rather disappointed though....I like almost everything about that model, but the helmet is just terrible! Drazhar has always been described wearing an ancient, archaic armor that resembles the ones incubi nowadays wear.
This helmet just looks as if they took a klaivex helmet and bolted too many horns on....it's way too busy.
Tiberias wrote: God I was really, really looking forward to the release of drazhar, I love that character.
I am rather disappointed though....I like almost everything about that model, but the helmet is just terrible! Drazhar has always been described wearing an ancient, archaic armor that resembles the ones incubi nowadays wear.
This helmet just looks as if they took a klaivex helmet and bolted too many horns on....it's way too busy.
Dude... his old helmet is terrible, its 4 ugly as feth horns, 1 is up, 1 is down, 2 on his neck. The new helm is 400% better.
Tiberias wrote: God I was really, really looking forward to the release of drazhar, I love that character.
I am rather disappointed though....I like almost everything about that model, but the helmet is just terrible! Drazhar has always been described wearing an ancient, archaic armor that resembles the ones incubi nowadays wear.
This helmet just looks as if they took a klaivex helmet and bolted too many horns on....it's way too busy.
Dude... his old helmet is terrible, its 4 ugly as feth horns, 1 is up, 1 is down, 2 on his neck. The new helm is 400% better.
I never said his old helmet was good or better, just that this one is terrible. Also I am not sure which old model you mean that had 4 ugly horns, the old model had no horns at all on his helmet...
Also the new helmet seems out of proportion, at least in this picture, it looks a bit too big...which further enhances the problems of those huge, unnecessary horns on his helmet, especially the curved horns on the side of the helmet don't fit at all.
Justycar wrote: Very beautiful model, at the same level to Lelith Hesperax or more. About the duel, I think that Phoenix lords are immortal, when they die, they can reawake again later.
Spoiler:
Jain Zar died at the end of the Night lords trilogy, in fact, destroyed by Talos, the Soul hunter. And that is decades ago in the lore.
Yes, Phoenix Lords are functionally immortal. If another Eldar dons their armor, they "rise" once again.
petrov27 wrote: wow there is a lot going on with that helmet - not even sure what is happening with the center bit between the horns - armored top-knot maybe?
Gonna be pretty crap if this guy kills Jain
They are CWE soul stones, they are his trophies. It might be his old one on his helm as he might has been a CWE before, or its just one he is proud of who he killed.
He's refering to the top knot behind the horns, which I admit is the one part of the model I don't like but that can be cut off as easily as Yvraines headress was.
petrov27 wrote: wow there is a lot going on with that helmet - not even sure what is happening with the center bit between the horns - armored top-knot maybe?
Gonna be pretty crap if this guy kills Jain
They are CWE soul stones, they are his trophies. It might be his old one on his helm as he might has been a CWE before, or its just one he is proud of who he killed.
He's refering to the top knot behind the horns, which I admit is the one part of the model I don't like but that can be cut off as easily as Yvraines headress was.
His helmet always went back to his hair a fair amount and he/incubi also has 2 Back things sticky out. Really nothing was changed to much ore added other than extra soul stones.
petrov27 wrote: wow there is a lot going on with that helmet - not even sure what is happening with the center bit between the horns - armored top-knot maybe?
Gonna be pretty crap if this guy kills Jain
They are CWE soul stones, they are his trophies. It might be his old one on his helm as he might has been a CWE before, or its just one he is proud of who he killed.
He's refering to the top knot behind the horns, which I admit is the one part of the model I don't like but that can be cut off as easily as Yvraines headress was.
That tail-like topknot is a nod to the old Drazhar model and perhaps thematically like a scorpion's tail. The inclusion of a trophy Scorpion rune on one of the back spikes is yet another nudge nudge wink wink towards Drazhar being Arhra.
Yes, Phoenix Lords are functionally immortal. If another Eldar dons their armor, they "rise" once again.
It's unclear if Drazhar does the same.
Gav Thorpe had a short story about Jain Zar. In it, she was resurrected (including recreation of weapons) from an Eldar touching a scrap of armor, so apparently you don't need an intact suit.
The first Dark Eldar Codex had a tiny blurb about the Dark Father of the Incubi, and how nobody knew if any challengers had ever succeeded in winning and taking his armor. Of course, being a Phoenix Lord, that would just lead to Arhra being reborn again and give the appearance of being undefeated.
Elbows wrote: Meh, but I'm not a Dark Eldar player, and never much cared for their aesthetic. At a glance it looks on par with normal Dark Eldar stuff, so...good?
Yeah looks very much like another incubi to me. I really liked the OOP metal drahzar though. Not sure what problem people had with it.
FYI Banshees and Jain zar are no longer being sold so we should expect pre-orders for shiny plastic banshees soon.
The new Jain Zar is *Jain Zar* - an ancient model brought to modern standards but obviously recognisable.
This is just... some guy. A champion Incubi perhaps - but not Drazar. Perhaps the mantis blades were always a bit much - in a sort of "you are taking "dark striking scorpions to a silly place" - but they were iconic (and imo should have informed Incubi, as a Dark Aspect, rather than "Dark Eldar wot have power glaives lol" they have become.)
Sure you can go "you wait a decade for demiklaives and then two (four?) turn up at once" - but... eh. Its an unusual fail for me.
They do love doing the eldar down, how the hell did a space marine sergeant stand toe to toe with Jain zar long enough to pull the grenade trick?
Spoiler:
Talos did not fight alone and was not a "marine sergeant" but a Chaos lord that fought in the Horus Heresy. And even he gave his life to kill her in a very climatic end. Trust in ADB, he writes coherently.
Elbows wrote: Meh, but I'm not a Dark Eldar player, and never much cared for their aesthetic. At a glance it looks on par with normal Dark Eldar stuff, so...good?
Agreed. He looks okay I guess, but then I'm not into DE.
Surprised about how many people don't like it; Drazhar was always associated with Incubi, but never looked like one. Now he does, and that's appropriate, because it matches the background.
Furthermore, the old model had no abdomen. Between his hips and his ribs, there was nothing but a spine. Seriously- the diameter of his thigh is thicker than the diameter of his abdomen. And yeah, one horn up and one down?
Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder- if you like the old and Ilike the new, neither of us will ever change the other's mind, and that's okay.
I'm just surprised- I can't actually imagine anyone liking the old model. My reaction would be similar if someone told me they liked the old plastic kabalites from the original 40k box set better than the new ones.
If a functionally immortal character is ever up against another character that isn't functionally immortal there's only going to be one winner. It's why the Phoenix Lords have become Marine playthings.
If both Draz and Jain are functionally immortal (I don't know enough about the DE lore) I suspect both with die, preferably because Vect decides to nuke them as they have a duel screaming "AAAaaaAAAggeeeeNNNTTTssss OOooFFff VEECCCTTT BIZNIZ!!!!!111one".
PenitentJake wrote: Surprised about how many people don't like it; Drazhar was always associated with Incubi, but never looked like one. Now he does, and that's appropriate, because it matches the background.
Furthermore, the old model had no abdomen. Between his hips and his ribs, there was nothing but a spine. Seriously- the diameter of his thigh is thicker than the diameter of his abdomen. And yeah, one horn up and one down?
Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder- if you like the old and Ilike the new, neither of us will ever change the other's mind, and that's okay.
I'm just surprised- I can't actually imagine anyone liking the old model. My reaction would be similar if someone told me they liked the old plastic kabalites from the original 40k box set better than the new ones.
The old model was OK at best but since the majority of the old 3rd ed Dark Eldar army was absolutely fugly he stood out as one of the better models of the time. It was very weird that he didn't get an updated model when the rest of the army did 10 years ago, especially as there was artwork in that 5th ed codex that showed him looking completely different to the model and more like the current Incubi. Starbgely this new model looks a little different to that artwork but still similar to Incubi, which makes sense since all Phoenix Lords look pretty similar to their Aspect Warriors anyway.
PenitentJake wrote: Surprised about how many people don't like it; Drazhar was always associated with Incubi, but never looked like one. Now he does, and that's appropriate, because it matches the background.
I'm just surprised- I can't actually imagine anyone liking the old model. My reaction would be similar if someone told me they liked the old plastic kabalites from the original 40k box set better than the new ones.
There are a few scattered mentions of Drazhar in the fluff - but long before that, there was the 3rd ed art and the model.
And I can understand people not liking the model - but for me at least when it came out in 2000 it was great even if it never really fit with other DE models. Perhaps especially because of that fact - after all so much of the original DE release was ugly as sin.
Models have a certain power in themselves - especially when they are so old.
There isn't any real reason Calgar has to be all fists of power - I mean "yeah but the fluff tho" - he could just have left his gauntlets at home. But that 1993 model is iconic, like a lot of the other classic 2nd ed special characters. Jain Zar is a call back that works for me. This by contrast just feels like a generic Incubi character. They could have made a new character if that's the design they wanted to go down.
Hellebore wrote: I don't mind either of them although drazhar is in a fairly neutral pose.
In terms of ornateness, Jain Zar only has a sleeve and shin guards to distinguish her from normal banshees - oh and a harlequin grimace face.
I don't think she looks particularly flashy. I think people are overwhelmed by her hair which while large is the plainest part of her.
And IMO the Phoenix lords should all be huge, they're far beyond the need for a normal mortal frame and they're bursting with psychic energy.
I Think that they'll kill Jain Zar one more time and then resurrect her as a Phoenix lord of ynnead....
Yeah I think both models look great- Drazhar looks like a bigger more involved incubi - which he is, he'll look great alongside the new incubi models, love that updated design.
I agree with you on Jain Zar- die again and be reborn as Ynnari Phoenix Lord, Yvraine died and was brought back by Ynnead in one of the novels so it fits. Interested to see where the fluff goes with all this, I'm sort of hoping the Ynnead story line leads to the eldar reclaiming more of the ancient power [i.e 2nd Eldar! ]
Hellebore wrote: I don't mind either of them although drazhar is in a fairly neutral pose.
In terms of ornateness, Jain Zar only has a sleeve and shin guards to distinguish her from normal banshees - oh and a harlequin grimace face.
I don't think she looks particularly flashy. I think people are overwhelmed by her hair which while large is the plainest part of her.
And IMO the Phoenix lords should all be huge, they're far beyond the need for a normal mortal frame and they're bursting with psychic energy.
I Think that they'll kill Jain Zar one more time and then resurrect her as a Phoenix lord of ynnead....
Yeah I think both models look great- Drazhar looks like a bigger more involved incubi - which he is, he'll look great alongside the new incubi models, love that updated design.
I agree with you on Jain Zar- die again and be reborn as Ynnari Phoenix Lord, Yvraine died and was brought back by Ynnead in one of the novels so it fits. Interested to see where the fluff goes with all this, I'm sort of hoping the Ynnead story line leads to the eldar reclaiming more of the ancient power [i.e 2nd Eldar! ]
Hmm, i through Draznar was supposed to be taller and not just striking pose on 3 inch rock This high rock really annoy me, since i`ll have to stick something heavy to be sure the model will flip often.
harlokin wrote: Would not using the scenic base be considered "modelling for advantage"?
Love the new Drazhar otherwise.
I wouldn't hold it against my opponent if they get rid of a disadvantage that had no reason to exist in the first place. I really hope GW will adopt something like the Silhouette System from Infinity at some point to finally bury this debate.
harlokin wrote: Would not using the scenic base be considered "modelling for advantage"?
Love the new Drazhar otherwise.
How is the scenic base an advantage exactly? He doesnt have any shooting afaik so its not helping him draw LOS to anything.
Did I say it was?
I was implying that I would like to leave the scenic base off the model for aesthetic reasons, but I'm concerned that in doing so I might be accused of modelling for advantage as the model would overall be smaller, and so potentially easier to hide.
People need to stop caring about 'modelling for advantage' accusations, especially in such minor examples. It's hard to have a go at GW for discouraging customisation/conversions when players are doing that to themselves for no reason.
If anybody seriously made that accusation because that tiny bit of scenery was not modelled on I think I'd have to laugh out loud and tell them fine you always have los to him.
PenitentJake wrote: Surprised about how many people don't like it; Drazhar was always associated with Incubi, but never looked like one. Now he does, and that's appropriate, because it matches the background.
Well, if it would help I can give you some reasons why I personally don't like the new model:
- The armour is barely distinguishable from that of an ordinary Incubi. Given his fluff, I was hoping to see something much more interesting. It's often depicted as being adorned with blades, yet here it looks basically identical to that of a standard Incubus.
- Drazhar is supposed to be "taller and more lithe" compared to other Incubi. The model, if anything, looks bulkier.
- Waaaaay too many pointless embellishments. This absolutely kills him for me as it goes against everything in his fluff. Drazhar doesn't speak. Drazhar doesn't eat. Drazhar doesn't speak. He has *never* been shown collecting gaudy trophies to adorn his armour. He has no need to brag about his accomplishments. I'd be fine with him having a couple of trophies but his whole soulstone-necklace just looks ridiculous.
- The Master of Blades apparently has no clue how swords work.
- Actually, are we sure he isn't the Master of Pointless Tassels?
- The top horns seem far too large.
- The artwork in both the 3rd and 5th edition books depicted him almost as a creature. As others have said, the 3rd edition art (and model) looked like something by H. R. Giger. It didn't just look like he was wielding blades - it looked like his blades were a part of him. And even his pose was reminiscent of a praying mantis (again invoking the idea of a person who is more akin to a creature, driven by instinct and living only to kill). Even the 5th edition artwork (which has him in a less-animalistic pose) nevertheless evokes images of creatures from the dark depths of the ocean.
In contrast, the new art and model are just boring. Drazhar just looks like an ordinary dude with stupid hair.
Furthermore, the old model had no abdomen. Between his hips and his ribs, there was nothing but a spine. Seriously- the diameter of his thigh is thicker than the diameter of his abdomen. And yeah, one horn up and one down?
To be fair, the lack of an abdomen might actually make a lot of sense.
I'm just surprised- I can't actually imagine anyone liking the old model. My reaction would be similar if someone told me they liked the old plastic kabalites from the original 40k box set better than the new ones.
I like aspects of the old model but I've got no nostalgic attachment to it.
My issue is that for the new model, I wanted this Drazhar:
harlokin wrote: Would not using the scenic base be considered "modelling for advantage"?
Love the new Drazhar otherwise.
How is the scenic base an advantage exactly? He doesnt have any shooting afaik so its not helping him draw LOS to anything.
Did I say it was?
I was implying that I would like to leave the scenic base off the model for aesthetic reasons, but I'm concerned that in doing so I might be accused of modelling for advantage as the model would overall be smaller, and so potentially easier to hide.
Misunderstood. Sorry i thought you meant him being on the base is an advantage.
- The artwork in both the 3rd and 5th edition books depicted him almost as a creature. As others have said, the 3rd edition art (and model) looked like something by H. R. Giger. It didn't just look like he was wielding blades - it looked like his blades were a part of him. And even his pose was reminiscent of a praying mantis (again invoking the idea of a person who is more akin to a creature, driven by instinct and living only to kill). Even the 5th edition artwork (which has him in a less-animalistic pose) nevertheless evokes images of creatures from the dark depths of the ocean.
In contrast, the new art and model are just boring. Drazhar just looks like an ordinary dude with stupid hair.
See, this is what makes me barking mad. For Jain Zar, they pretty much went exactly with the oldschool design, which for me doesn't really work.
Then, for Drazhar, they dediced to ditch the old design when I had hoped for an iteration of it.
- The artwork in both the 3rd and 5th edition books depicted him almost as a creature. As others have said, the 3rd edition art (and model) looked like something by H. R. Giger. It didn't just look like he was wielding blades - it looked like his blades were a part of him. And even his pose was reminiscent of a praying mantis (again invoking the idea of a person who is more akin to a creature, driven by instinct and living only to kill). Even the 5th edition artwork (which has him in a less-animalistic pose) nevertheless evokes images of creatures from the dark depths of the ocean.
In contrast, the new art and model are just boring. Drazhar just looks like an ordinary dude with stupid hair.
See, this is what makes me barking mad. For Jain Zar, they pretty much went exactly with the oldschool design, which for me doesn't really work.
Then, for Drazhar, they dediced to ditch the old design when I had hoped for an iteration of it.
This time, I got screwed twice in one go
Jain Zar is fine, but the new Draznar is kind of disappointing to me too.
Ofcourse after you paint the models you will love them
- The artwork in both the 3rd and 5th edition books depicted him almost as a creature. As others have said, the 3rd edition art (and model) looked like something by H. R. Giger. It didn't just look like he was wielding blades - it looked like his blades were a part of him. And even his pose was reminiscent of a praying mantis (again invoking the idea of a person who is more akin to a creature, driven by instinct and living only to kill). Even the 5th edition artwork (which has him in a less-animalistic pose) nevertheless evokes images of creatures from the dark depths of the ocean.
In contrast, the new art and model are just boring. Drazhar just looks like an ordinary dude with stupid hair.
See, this is what makes me barking mad. For Jain Zar, they pretty much went exactly with the oldschool design, which for me doesn't really work.
Then, for Drazhar, they dediced to ditch the old design when I had hoped for an iteration of it.
This time, I got screwed twice in one go
Im sorry but whaaaat... jain zar done old style not ok because you wanted something new. Drazhar done new not ok necause you wanted old? Each to their own but i see a "i wouldint like these models no matter what"
Im sorry but whaaaat... jain zar done old style not ok because you wanted something new. Drazhar done new not ok necause you wanted old? Each to their own but i see a "i wouldint like these models no matter what"
That's how personal preference works sometimes
Please keep in mind that this is very much a tongue in cheek comment.
So the format in which banshees will be released has been announced... Its a box set of CWE Vs DE...
Thoughts?
My Take on this:
Admitedly the vyper and falcon are very lacklustre in the rules at the moment, but according to the gumph about the first campaign book (which is basically ynari codex reprinted in hardback ?) They are giving us a bunch of new rules for aspect powers, psychic discipline, build your own craftworld SM style and re-working datasheets for some of the units (100% banshees jain zar and the incubi & Incubi Lv 2 guy aka drazhar).
So this could mean the falcon and vyper will not be entirely useless and get new rules. It seems a bit sucky to release it is CWE Vs DE box and only give us 5 banshees..... I personally have no interest in the DE side and really the falcon doesn't interest me all that much either. The vyper Im actually happy with as was planing on making a little squadron or two. Plus the vyper is a sweet model despite its age.
I have a feeling there will be a lot of DE halfs of this box going on ebay very soon.. so it means I am unlikely to make my money back as I would want 10 banshees obviously.. This is pretty frustrating and we have no idea when these will be available for sale on their own.. Chaos players waiting for new oblitorators..Soo... Ya know., not filled with confidence..
It a box to sell models that are terrible in game.
Sadly i'll get it. Mostly b.c it will be cheaper than normal, i'm guess 180USD for 250USD worth of models, and with a discount i should be only paying 150 for it, the 4 new units are about that price anyways. (Just guessing)
BUT the last bit of information in the video has me excited.
Amishprn86 wrote: It a box to sell models that are terrible in game.
Sadly i'll get it. Mostly b.c it will be cheaper than normal, i'm guess 180USD for 250USD worth of models, and with a discount i should be only paying 150 for it, the 4 new units are about that price anyways. (Just guessing)
BUT the last bit of information in the video has me excited.
Are you referring to the bit about yrvaine being hunted by slanesh creature and it all "coming to a crescendo"?
Personally, I hope that means the death of Yrrvaine death of ynarri concept bringing the failed experiment to an end..And then maybe they can stick to making cool CWE units without trying to push the narative that eldar just run towards death like mindless lemings because of plot... The new short story "the path" was so stupid it made me hurt on the inside.. Obv everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I know a lot of people will disagree.
Crimson wrote: They're not gonna kill a special character with such a new model.
They could kill her off or at least insinuate shes dead with hints that's shes "lost" and drag it out over 5 years though right ??
I don't see why they could not rebrand the models as other things.. You know.. kind of like prince yriel is our fine cast autarch on foot model because there is no autarch on foot model?
Yrvaine - a farseer with familiar.
Visarch - Autarch on foot with powersword
Incarnate - Generic avatar of ynead/snalesh/khaine..
Problem solved. Still have use for models still sell models.
My guess about the "coming to a crescendo" will be a harlequin release (considering they have an ability called rising crescendo). I'm guessing the harlequins will arrive in time to save Yvrainne. That would be awesome if we get a harlequin vs slannesh box set
"For units that are important to narrative of the Campaign." So it's probably HQs. For example, Eldrad and Yriel being able to join Ynnari would make sense.
AngryMedic wrote: My guess about the "coming to a crescendo" will be a harlequin release (considering they have an ability called rising crescendo). I'm guessing the harlequins will arrive in time to save Yvrainne. That would be awesome if we get a harlequin vs slannesh box set
If I had to make a guess, I'd say Harlequins will probably be 'paired off' with Thousand Sons.
If I had to make a guess, I'd say Harlequins will probably be 'paired off' with Thousand Sons.
Huh? Why?
Gut feeling.
Both are relatively complete, in terms of what they have based on their fluff/faction scale, but could use maybe a few characters or the like added to them...also, come on.
Harlequins defending the Black Library from Ahriman is kind of another Tuesday for them.
"For units that are important to narrative of the Campaign." So it's probably HQs. For example, Eldrad and Yriel being able to join Ynnari would make sense.
I could see that being the case.
However this whole book feels a bit like half arsed attempt at updating Eldar rules without doing the full work of actually bringing out a new codex.
It really feels like they went "ohh crap the SM codex & supplements is way too good compared to chaos and all the other stuff...Quick, mash some SM style of stuff together and get it out there so it seems like we are trying to balance and let other people think they are getting (*scraps* *cough) something too.
What makes me really not want to buy the books:
A) They filled it with ynari WD codex reprint.. If I wanted one ID just get that ? B) It feels like they are strrapping a band aid on pandoras box that is the SM Codex/IH supplements and this is a stop gap before they roll out new wave of codexes. Much like the vigilius book is very much obsolete for marines. C) As per point B I think whatever they do will clash with CA2019 and will have to be fixed with a new Eldar codex anyhow.
However I still want the models and will get the models. Looking at 2 boxes because I want 10 plastic banshees.. Probably keep the vypers, banshees and 1x jain zar but sell everything else. Unlikely to break close to even but something..
Now I'm normally not ati-GW. I understand they are a business and I'm a customer and I can always do other stuff with my money but am happy to give them some of my money for the nice toys they make. But for the most part this whole thing feels very.. Slapsticky.. I think the design team has no passion for Xenos or Eldar in particular and its realy showing glaringly in this one.
However this whole book feels a bit like half arsed attempt at updating Eldar rules without doing the full work of actually bringing out a new codex.
It really feels like they went "ohh crap the SM codex & supplements is way too good compared to chaos and all the other stuff...Quick, mash some SM style of stuff together and get it out there so it seems like we are trying to balance and let other people think they are getting (*scraps* *cough) something too.
That literally cannot be the case. They can't have a book coming out before the last two supplements even hit, based upon your tinfoil hattery.
What makes me really not want to buy the books:
A) They filled it with ynari WD codex reprint.. If I wanted one ID just get that ?
Cool, good for you! White Dwarf, once it sells out, doesn't get reprinted. That's something people have been whining about for awhile now--this is a way for those people who missed it to get the rules now.
B) It feels like they are strrapping a band aid on pandoras box that is the SM Codex/IH supplements and this is a stop gap before they roll out new wave of codexes. Much like the vigilius book is very much obsolete for marines.
C) As per point B I think whatever they do will clash with CA2019 and will have to be fixed with a new Eldar codex anyhow.
Gee, if only people could have seen the writing on the wall with the way that Black Legion and Renegades got rules with Vigilus Ablaze...
This isn't a "stopgap" before they roll out a new wave of codices. This is them testbedding it first.
However I still want the models and will get the models. Looking at 2 boxes because I want 10 plastic banshees.. Probably keep the vypers, banshees and 1x jain zar but sell everything else. Unlikely to break close to even but something..
Now I'm normally not ati-GW. I understand they are a business and I'm a customer and I can always do other stuff with my money but am happy to give them some of my money for the nice toys they make. But for the most part this whole thing feels very.. Slapsticky.. I think the design team has no passion for Xenos or Eldar in particular and its realy showing glaringly in this one.
Or they have no release slots for a whole range revamp this late in the year.
Id jump on this book in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the fact they obviously fillered it with WD ynari reprint and some DE stuff tahts not relvant to me..so the actual content is probably going to be very underwhelming.
The make your own craft world rules are very intriguing and Im pretty excited about that! However its yet another bloaty thing. They could have just made a new bloody codex... so frustrating.
Ynnari is 3 datasheets and 2 pages of relics and stratagems. Like whatever. Who cares.
All new rules for all Eldar in 1 book. Looks perfect to me.
Custom Craftworlds is also great. Even if they won't be better than main ones, you could use them as a substitute and take what you need, not what GW designer thinks you need.
Argive wrote: Id jump on this book in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the fact they obviously fillered it with WD ynari reprint and some DE stuff tahts not relvant to me..so the actual content is probably going to be very underwhelming.
The make your own craft world rules are very intriguing and Im pretty excited about that! However its yet another bloaty thing. They could have just made a new bloody codex... so frustrating.
Just remember this statement if you ever complain about Marine codices being too many.
There's a reason the supplements just happened. That book was bloat, with a large percentage of it being Ultramarines only.
Cool, good for you! White Dwarf, once it sells out, doesn't get reprinted. That's something people have been whining about for awhile now--this is a way for those people who missed it to get the rules now.
Here's an alternative idea - how about using this opportunity to actually fix their rules instead of taking the laziest possible route?
However this whole book feels a bit like half arsed attempt at updating Eldar rules without doing the full work of actually bringing out a new codex.
It really feels like they went "ohh crap the SM codex & supplements is way too good compared to chaos and all the other stuff...Quick, mash some SM style of stuff together and get it out there so it seems like we are trying to balance and let other people think they are getting (*scraps* *cough) something too.
That literally cannot be the case. They can't have a book coming out before the last two supplements even hit, based upon your tinfoil hattery.
What makes me really not want to buy the books:
A) They filled it with ynari WD codex reprint.. If I wanted one ID just get that ?
Cool, good for you! White Dwarf, once it sells out, doesn't get reprinted. That's something people have been whining about for awhile now--this is a way for those people who missed it to get the rules now.
B) It feels like they are strrapping a band aid on pandoras box that is the SM Codex/IH supplements and this is a stop gap before they roll out new wave of codexes. Much like the vigilius book is very much obsolete for marines. C) As per point B I think whatever they do will clash with CA2019 and will have to be fixed with a new Eldar codex anyhow.
Gee, if only people could have seen the writing on the wall with the way that Black Legion and Renegades got rules with Vigilus Ablaze...
This isn't a "stopgap" before they roll out a new wave of codices. This is them testbedding it first.
However I still want the models and will get the models. Looking at 2 boxes because I want 10 plastic banshees.. Probably keep the vypers, banshees and 1x jain zar but sell everything else. Unlikely to break close to even but something..
Now I'm normally not ati-GW. I understand they are a business and I'm a customer and I can always do other stuff with my money but am happy to give them some of my money for the nice toys they make. But for the most part this whole thing feels very.. Slapsticky.. I think the design team has no passion for Xenos or Eldar in particular and its realy showing glaringly in this one.
Or they have no release slots for a whole range revamp this late in the year.
I did not say that they would release new Eldar codex before supplements dropped.. Not sure where you are getting that from. But I can see a new Eldar codex dropping within 6 months making this book obsolete. Obviously this is total speculation and I have no basis for this theory tin foil or not
So they are testbedding codex 2,0 now are they ? Even though they already released 1st of the new wave of codex 2.0 with supplements to boot.. Doesn't make sense that they would test bed stuff now. It feels is a bandaid stop gap being strapped on an old book without making a new book.
It makes all kinds of sense. They are releasing books for all with Psychic Awakening factions and testing new rules.
Will tables for Exarches be good idea? Or will it be better to just pick those players end up playing the most and re-make Aspects with them? Makes sense to me.
Argive wrote: Id jump on this book in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the fact they obviously fillered it with WD ynari reprint and some DE stuff tahts not relvant to me..so the actual content is probably going to be very underwhelming.
The make your own craft world rules are very intriguing and Im pretty excited about that! However its yet another bloaty thing. They could have just made a new bloody codex... so frustrating.
Just remember this statement if you ever complain about Marine codices being too many.
There's a reason the supplements just happened. That book was bloat, with a large percentage of it being Ultramarines only.
Well that wont be a problem because the eldar don't have 25 types of guardians and get a new kit every month...Just saying.
Shadenuat wrote: It makes all kinds of sense. They are releasing books for all with Psychic Awakening factions and testing new rules.
Will tables for Exarches be good idea? Or will it be better to just pick those players end up playing the most and re-make Aspects with them? Makes sense to me.
Ok yeah I get what you guys are saying... BUT Feels like they could have done a much better job by putting out a beta codex - like SOB beta codex - in this book or CA2019. That way they can get a real testbed and get meaningful feedback. Coz they obviously didn't want to do that with marines - do we want any more IH style of OP powercreepess? Im going to say noo.
Like a new codex lining up for a slew of finecast to plastic converting releases of the range (because that's what should happen).
Its possible the exarch/aspect powers might not be limited to just banshees (hopefully) and you are right this is a tesbed for aspects. In which case I get it. I haven't considered that they were talking about more than banshees.
I think I'm just salty I will have to really put in the work of selling off most of those boxes so that I can get my plastic aspectsx10 & jain zar. I think I can make some cool scenery with falcons...
The thing about foot Conclave is that it should have some very unique rule compared to bike one, because otherwise bike one would always win, as it did through many editions.
Shadenuat wrote: The thing about foot Conclave is that it should have some very unique rule compared to bike one, because otherwise bike one would always win, as it did through many editions.
Well it would though wouldint it? Bikers are tougher, faster and more wounds. And did I mention they are new plastic kits and not old finecast ? But you can put the foot conclave in a WS... so that's a rule? Or something...
I already nearly done painting 2 foot warlocks to start my conclave in this current batch im painting. I expect CA 2019 will drop by the time I'm done so maybe they will be decent enough to field without feeling like im bringing a knife to a gun fight ?
So this could mean the falcon and vyper will not be entirely useless and get new rules. It seems a bit sucky to release it is CWE Vs DE box and only give us 5 banshees..... I personally have no interest in the DE side and really the falcon doesn't interest me all that much either. The vyper Im actually happy with as was planing on making a little squadron or two. Plus the vyper is a sweet model despite its age.
I have a feeling there will be a lot of DE halfs of this box going on ebay very soon.. so it means I am unlikely to make my money back as I would want 10 banshees obviously.. This is pretty frustrating and we have no idea when these will be available for sale on their own.. Chaos players waiting for new oblitorators..Soo... Ya know., not filled with confidence..
This, so much this. I was excited to get and paint Jain Zar even with my Eldar on the back burner, and maybe even some Banshees...but I don't want any of that other stuff. Maybe in six months they'll release regular blisters/boxes?
So this could mean the falcon and vyper will not be entirely useless and get new rules. It seems a bit sucky to release it is CWE Vs DE box and only give us 5 banshees..... I personally have no interest in the DE side and really the falcon doesn't interest me all that much either. The vyper Im actually happy with as was planing on making a little squadron or two. Plus the vyper is a sweet model despite its age.
I have a feeling there will be a lot of DE halfs of this box going on ebay very soon.. so it means I am unlikely to make my money back as I would want 10 banshees obviously.. This is pretty frustrating and we have no idea when these will be available for sale on their own.. Chaos players waiting for new oblitorators..Soo... Ya know., not filled with confidence..
This, so much this. I was excited to get and paint Jain Zar even with my Eldar on the back burner, and maybe even some Banshees...but I don't want any of that other stuff. Maybe in six months they'll release regular blisters/boxes?
Argive wrote: Id jump on this book in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the fact they obviously fillered it with WD ynari reprint and some DE stuff tahts not relvant to me..so the actual content is probably going to be very underwhelming.
The make your own craft world rules are very intriguing and Im pretty excited about that! However its yet another bloaty thing. They could have just made a new bloody codex... so frustrating.
Just remember this statement if you ever complain about Marine codices being too many.
There's a reason the supplements just happened. That book was bloat, with a large percentage of it being Ultramarines only.
You really think the supplements are to deal with bloat ? The supplements are to make you buy more and spread the release out longer. As now instead of paying 60$ for a large codex it's 70$ for 2 books, and that is if you just want one of the supplements which for the factions they represent are must haves to get the most bang for your buck from the army. I mean its clever on their part I'll give them that and most players just eat it up. Still amounts to the same bloat just over more books and more money spent.
I find this box disappointing. Really, I want a squad of 10 of the new banshees and Jain Zar, so it's disappointing they only give you 5. As for the rest, as much as I like Falcons, I've got three already (two of which are unbuilt). I wouldn't necessarily turn another one down, but I don't need it. I'm not a massive fan of the Vyper and have three of those unbuilt anyway. I'm not really into the DE.
So for me this box gives me fewer banshees than I would want - and I'd prefer to build and paint the full squad of 10 together - and a bunch of stuff I don't need. The sad thing is I won't be surprised if I still end up picking it up anyway... Damn plastic crack.
The new rules stuff sounds interesting, Despite barely playing I'll probably pick the book up and see how ti goes.
I don't mean this year(before January) With sisters getting their time to shine I'm happy with it.
Yeah probably not this year, but I'm hopeful for more plastic aspects.
This, so much this. I was excited to get and paint Jain Zar even with my Eldar on the back burner, and maybe even some Banshees...but I don't want any of that other stuff. Maybe in six months they'll release regular blisters/boxes?
I hope so.
The plastic Spiritseer and Lieutenant from Wake the Dead got separate releases.
I did have to quietly wonder why they even put scourges in the box. A unit so untaken I've not seen them in a battle report vid, most players I think would be surprised to see on the table top and probably feel they are a fake unit. All I could use from the DE part would be venom and Drazhar. I have more incubi than I will ever use probably and sadly many scourges as I'm one of the people in the world who actually use them.
I actualy picked up a cheap box of scourges for conversion purposes (needed the wings for an autarch) and planning to use the rest to make funky corsairs while hoarding the ret for bits.
I don't need one or two more boxes lol. Will be interesting to see how much the banshees re-sell for. I wouldn't be surprised at £35 a squad and jain zar going for £25, and that's being generous I think. (If I was buying the box for re-sell that's what id price at minimum)
Its still cheaper then £100 for a box of uselss stuff I and 100's of others would then try to sell..
See, I agree, but to GW trying to steal some extra pennies from the pockets of xeno players is like the game within the game.
It's as pleasing to them as handing out what felt at the time like some nice chaos stuff, then over buffing vanilla marines with a release so large it still isn't all out yet stretched out over months. I feel they did it out of pure meanness.
I joke, but really only a little I'd be pretty annoyed but I can wait for Drazhar to come out singly even if the cost makes me feint when he does so.
Crimson wrote: They're not gonna kill a special character with such a new model.
They could kill her off or at least insinuate shes dead with hints that's shes "lost" and drag it out over 5 years though right ??
I don't see why they could not rebrand the models as other things.. You know.. kind of like prince yriel is our fine cast autarch on foot model because there is no autarch on foot model?
Yrvaine - a farseer with familiar.
Visarch - Autarch on foot with powersword
Incarnate - Generic avatar of ynead/snalesh/khaine..
Problem solved. Still have use for models still sell models.
Just no.
As much as I'd like them to kill off Guilliman that's not gonna do that either.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
puma713 wrote: GW: "Hey guys, we have all these Eldar Falcons and Vypers that haven't sold in years. How are we gonna promote these things?"
Most Eldar players already have them, and they're also very old models. I think I bought my 2 Falcons for 25$. And one of them was not painted and had all the bits.
Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?
It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.
If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.
Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.
Eventually can be a pretty long time though. Like that one tech guy from Kill teams, did he ever get dropped on his own yet ? The one who increased ranges for units near him I forget his name. I avoided that box, waiting for his single drop. Still waiting.
It took quite awhile for the assassins to come out single from when they got their new plastic kits. That's just naming a couple off the top of my head. How long did it take to get cawl as a single buy ? The people waited quite awhile why make them wait what could be quite awhile longer just to avoid adding dead models to their collections ?
When did shadowspear drop ? The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people. Heck even supressors are still not released and those are the poster boys in power armour!!
I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.
I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...
When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people.
I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.
I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...
Yes, it is annoying. And I'm sure GW is counting on people not wanting to wait and just buying the whole box now. And then they have that other half they don't need... Unless they start a second army now that they already have these models... Considering that GW keeps doing this, it probably works.
When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people.
I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.
I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...
Yes, it is annoying. And I'm sure GW is counting on people not wanting to wait and just buying the whole box now. And then they have that other half they don't need... Unless they start a second army now that they already have these models... Considering that GW keeps doing this, it probably works.
I'll be curious to see how it sells. I just can't get pumped for 5 of each new release in the box. We know they're capable of not pinching like this, there was a full squad of 10 infiltrators matched to 10 chaos marines in Shadowspear.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?
It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.
If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.
Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.
They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.
People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.
When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people.
I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.
I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...
Yes, it is annoying. And I'm sure GW is counting on people not wanting to wait and just buying the whole box now. And then they have that other half they don't need... Unless they start a second army now that they already have these models... Considering that GW keeps doing this, it probably works.
I'll be curious to see how it sells. I just can't get pumped for 5 of each new release in the box. We know they're capable of not pinching like this, there was a full squad of 10 infiltrators matched to 10 chaos marines in Shadowspear.
true but infiltrators and CSMs are troops. the trend these days seems to be "troops in boxes of ten.. everything else in 5s"
AngryAngel80 wrote: Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?
It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.
If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.
Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.
They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.
People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.
I disagree.
Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..
Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?
AngryAngel80 wrote: Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?
It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.
If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.
Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.
They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.
People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.
I disagree.
Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..
Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?
If their datasheets are changed they could all be more playable, so really we don't know right now. They said their will be new rules, not only just traits and custom traits.
Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..
Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?
The same type of people convinced to run land speeders / grav cannons / etc due to the marine supplements.
With updated Wych Cults its entirely possible things like Hellions could be useful (given a meta that needs them).
No they said the banshees and DE dudes are getting new data sheets and exarch table.
Then new make your own CWE trait SM style in phoenix rising. (which are highly unlikely to be better than alitoic lets be honest...)
If you are saying "Well how do you know the vypers and xyz wont suddenly become viable" those things need more than an army trait to fix. And old stuff does not get new data sheets.
Im not being pessimistic and obtuse on purpose for the hell of it.. I'm just calling it what it is. Getting taxed for new models by being forced to buy a bunch of old low tier garbage I already own and not use.
Can you imagine the salt if they released two new kits like a new primarch for marines then put them in a bundle with tac marines and a rhino?? this is that. But it isint because marines don't have to wait for 15 years for new kits.
Argive wrote: No they said the aspects and DE dudes are getting new data sheets and aspect tables.
Then new make your own CWE trait SM style in phoenix rising. (which are highly unlikely to be better than alitoic lets be honest...)
If you are saying "Well how do you know the vypers and xyz wont suddenly become viable" those things need more than an army trait to fix mate. And old stuff does not get new data sheets.
Remember when Possessed went to 2 wounds? Old stuff gets updates. There is plenty that can change outside a data sheet as well.
Argive wrote: No they said the banshees and DE dudes are getting new data sheets and exarch table.
Then new make your own CWE trait SM style in phoenix rising. (which are highly unlikely to be better than alitoic lets be honest...)
If you are saying "Well how do you know the vypers and xyz wont suddenly become viable" those things need more than an army trait to fix.
And old stuff does not get new data sheets.
Im not being pessimistic and obtuse on purpose for the hell of it.. I'm just calling it what it is. Getting taxed for new models by being forced to buy a bunch of old low tier garbage I already own and not use.
Can you imagine the salt if they released two new kits like a new primarch for marines then put them in a bundle with tac marines and a rhino??
this is that. But it isint because marines don't have to wait for 15 years for new kits.
They said a codex size release with new rules, never said only those 4 units. Also, yes they can become viable, remember more traits are going out, "High Altitude and Maiden World" along with customizeable traits. Just like IH made some units better, these traits can too.
Amishprn86 wrote: It a box to sell models that are terrible in game.
Sadly i'll get it. Mostly b.c it will be cheaper than normal, i'm guess 180USD for 250USD worth of models, and with a discount i should be only paying 150 for it, the 4 new units are about that price anyways. (Just guessing)
BUT the last bit of information in the video has me excited.
Are you referring to the bit about yrvaine being hunted by slanesh creature and it all "coming to a crescendo"?
Personally, I hope that means the death of Yrrvaine death of ynarri concept bringing the failed experiment to an end..And then maybe they can stick to making cool CWE units without trying to push the narative that eldar just run towards death like mindless lemings because of plot... The new short story "the path" was so stupid it made me hurt on the inside.. Obv everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I know a lot of people will disagree.
Actually it looks to me Jain Zar will be the first reborn phoenix lord and the first named character allowed for the Ynnari after the change.
Amishprn86 wrote: It a box to sell models that are terrible in game.
Sadly i'll get it. Mostly b.c it will be cheaper than normal, i'm guess 180USD for 250USD worth of models, and with a discount i should be only paying 150 for it, the 4 new units are about that price anyways. (Just guessing)
BUT the last bit of information in the video has me excited.
Are you referring to the bit about yrvaine being hunted by slanesh creature and it all "coming to a crescendo"?
Personally, I hope that means the death of Yrrvaine death of ynarri concept bringing the failed experiment to an end..And then maybe they can stick to making cool CWE units without trying to push the narative that eldar just run towards death like mindless lemings because of plot... The new short story "the path" was so stupid it made me hurt on the inside.. Obv everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I know a lot of people will disagree.
Actually it looks to me Jain Zar will be the first reborn phoenix lord and the first named character allowed for the Ynnari after the change.
Ynnari forever half assed, it was a cool idea that if the design studio put some effort in could have been a great 3rd faction for eldar. GW has to know that these sorta things require more than minimum effort at design.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?
It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.
If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.
Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.
They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.
People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.
I disagree.
Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..
Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?
Shadowspear is premium now because it`s out of stock, on release you could buy halfs on better price than retailers.
And some point and rule adjustment could make you think different of this units.
I think Skari is using scourges already and i saw list with Ynnari Hellions. Vyper and Falcons are also not so bad as people think, vypers just suffer because of ITC rules and Falcon small capacity and high price make him not preferable as the wave serpent.
It always surprised me how people bend over backwards to put a good spin on GWs model tax to new units people actually want.
This is an unforced error, it isn't a blessing in disguise they charge you more for models people most likely already have/don't use. Even if they make falcons better, vypers, all the DE stuff, who doesn't already have them if they play those factions ?
They've had years collect them with no new kits to speak of. There are actual good models they could have put in there, as is the venom is about the only good one aside from the new sculpts.
Shadowspear was all new stuff aside from chaos space marines.
If they wanted to be consumer friendly they'd have the box option, and the individual option to pick up plenty of what you actually want. This is customer fleecing for models players have waited a long time for. Sure they can probably sell the old models, at a large discount I'm sure if people want them much at all aside from the venom which will probably sell fine.
I'm not even annoyed for me, I'm annoyed for the Eldar players. I can wait for Drazhar which is the only model in the list I want as I have tons of Incubi.
AngryAngel80 wrote: It always surprised me how people bend over backwards to put a good spin on GWs model tax to new units people actually want.
This is an unforced error, it isn't a blessing in disguise they charge you more for models people most likely already have/don't use. Even if they make falcons better, vypers, all the DE stuff, who doesn't already have them if they play those factions ?
They've had years collect them with no new kits to speak of. There are actual good models they could have put in there, as is the venom is about the only good one aside from the new sculpts.
Shadowspear was all new stuff aside from chaos space marines.
If they wanted to be consumer friendly they'd have the box option, and the individual option to pick up plenty of what you actually want. This is customer fleecing for models players have waited a long time for. Sure they can probably sell the old models, at a large discount I'm sure if people want them much at all aside from the venom which will probably sell fine.
I'm not even annoyed for me, I'm annoyed for the Eldar players. I can wait for Drazhar which is the only model in the list I want as I have tons of Incubi.
I think you are annoyed for nothing, old CWE players have old banshees for sure and they can use them, get banshees from ebay or just wait for the separate release.
I have crazy DE player who is ready to get 3 or even 4 boxes and split it with me. I can sell the units i don`t need and refund some of the money.
The real problem is new players still don`t have good Eldar starting pack, not single troop choice included is really terrible.
Well that is good for you, not everyone is so lucky though and I'm sure even more would love to have picked up a couple groups of the plastic banshees without needing to wait.
There is no reason to do this but to be typical GW. It lacking troops just makes it double bad as it has little point even for a new player let alone a vet.
You shouldn't need to refund money back from units you don't need, you should be able to buy just what you actually want. That shouldn't be a luxury feature.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Well that is good for you, not everyone is so lucky though and I'm sure even more would love to have picked up a couple groups of the plastic banshees without needing to wait.
There is no reason to do this but to be typical GW. It lacking troops just makes it double bad as it has little point even for a new player let alone a vet.
You shouldn't need to refund money back from units you don't need, you should be able to buy just what you actually want. That shouldn't be a luxury feature.
Yea, i know what you mean, but new Eliminators are 30 pounds, i got the half of the kit for 40 pounds(from ebay). The boxes value is always good, i also hopped we will get 10 banshees, but you see what you get.
I do think people underestimate the falcon, with the built in pulse laser, a bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix it's 137 PTS. A wave serpent with twin bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix costs 167 PTS for worse firepower but greater survivability.
I'm happy to add a third one to my collection and I'm starting to build up drukhari so the box is great for me.
I can understand people who are upset that they can't get the new units separately but they're replacement models, you can use the old ones until the new ones are available.
The new rules will still apply to old sculpts after all.
AngryAngel80 wrote: It always surprised me how people bend over backwards to put a good spin on GWs model tax to new units people actually want.
This is an unforced error, it isn't a blessing in disguise they charge you more for models people most likely already have/don't use. Even if they make falcons better, vypers, all the DE stuff, who doesn't already have them if they play those factions ?
They've had years collect them with no new kits to speak of. There are actual good models they could have put in there, as is the venom is about the only good one aside from the new sculpts.
Shadowspear was all new stuff aside from chaos space marines.
If they wanted to be consumer friendly they'd have the box option, and the individual option to pick up plenty of what you actually want. This is customer fleecing for models players have waited a long time for. Sure they can probably sell the old models, at a large discount I'm sure if people want them much at all aside from the venom which will probably sell fine.
I'm not even annoyed for me, I'm annoyed for the Eldar players. I can wait for Drazhar which is the only model in the list I want as I have tons of Incubi.
Could be worse, Could be getting more space Marines i do not want. And the dark elder bits i use for one of my craftworlds for kill team, So i guess this is sorta a step up. But i think i have several falcons now in boxes.
Only 5 in the box, I super anoying tho >.< that will probably be the point i decide if i want the box at all on for. 5 is just annoying.
As a Drukhari player I'm really happy that some new rules are incoming.
I want Drazhar and the Incubi for use in friendly games, while the rest of the models are shades of less interesting to me. More Venoms is never a bad option, Scourges are already decent, and Hellions look good.
I suspect I'd probably be best served buying off eBay, as the Asuryani stuff is off no use to me.
We get datsheets in the box for everything in the box. It is possible there are changes to any of them. It's also possible there aren't. The book that comes in the box is fluff and scenarios.
The dex worth of updates is part of the PA book- that doesn't come in the box.
I understand the frustration of long term players that already have all of the other models. But don't forget that new players are a thing. This box is perfect for me. (Not a new player, but new to playing eldar of any sort). I'm particularly happy about the hellions- I need some to run escort duty for a beast master who is on a quest to enthrall an Ambull and bring it back to his wych cult's arena.
They may suck in tournaments (and I don't care at all) but they are crucial to my narrative (which is the only thing that has ever really mattered to me).
I think the stand alones will come at Christmas.
The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.
Is it ALSO true that they were underselling and that this may be a way to fix that? Probably. But that doesn't mean that the fluffy, story based reason is less valid, or that it doesn't exist.
I also love it when people talking about things taking a long time. When I look back to 89, which is when I started playing, nothing is a long time.
If you've only been playing five years, you may not yet have realized that this game will be there for the rest of your life and beyond. What? Some of the Shadowspear models aren't available as stand alones yet? Less than a year after release?
Hardly a reason to get apoplectic. If you want it bad enough, it's available. If you don't it'll come. Maybe not for a full year- heck they may even make you wait two. They can do this, because, because if you want it bad enough, it's still there.
Can you imagine the salt if they released two new kits like a new primarch for marines then put them in a bundle with tac marines and a rhino??
this is that. But it isint because marines don't have to wait for 15 years for new kits.
Gulliman when he came out was packaged with 2 other characters. I was lucky, I had a CSM and grey knight army so it was conveniant for me, but a lot of people ended up buying characters they didn't need to get Guliman. furthermore, are we forgeting that until recently you couldn't buy a Primaris Leuitenant outside of a boxed set? And then Space Wolves still have to buy a primaris box for their Leuitenant.
ohh and Marine players STILL can't buy a Primaris ancient without buying dark Imperium.
PenitentJake wrote: I also love it when people talking about things taking a long time. When I look back to 89, which is when I started playing, nothing is a long time.
If you've only been playing five years, you may not yet have realized that this game will be there for the rest of your life and beyond. What? Some of the Shadowspear models aren't available as stand alones yet? Less than a year after release?
Hardly a reason to get apoplectic. If you want it bad enough, it's available. If you don't it'll come. Maybe not for a full year- heck they may even make you wait two. They can do this, because, because if you want it bad enough, it's still there.
I
Ah I should be happy that I have the priviledge to wait 6+ months to buy a unit I want to field.
How honoured I am.
Why even post what you posted? It's undefendable. They have the molds, they have the models. They just would rather stick em in a box and move other stock as well.
Neither Falcon or Vyper are unviable, they're just not the best. When compared to similar units in other factions, they are in fact better.
But they are old models, and they don't have rules or stratagems to build things around them. The best you can do with Vypers is fall back and charge with Vigilus detachment. Well and get extra AP, although at a big cost.
The most you can do with Falcon is fill a Brigade somehow.
PenitentJake wrote: We get datsheets in the box for everything in the box. It is possible there are changes to any of them. It's also possible there aren't. The book that comes in the box is fluff and scenarios.
The dex worth of updates is part of the PA book- that doesn't come in the box.
I understand the frustration of long term players that already have all of the other models. But don't forget that new players are a thing. This box is perfect for me. (Not a new player, but new to playing eldar of any sort). I'm particularly happy about the hellions- I need some to run escort duty for a beast master who is on a quest to enthrall an Ambull and bring it back to his wych cult's arena.
They may suck in tournaments (and I don't care at all) but they are crucial to my narrative (which is the only thing that has ever really mattered to me).
I guess there will be a magic "don't worry about it/make it legal" detachment - but I don't think this is good for new players, because there is no way to make either force a valid army with the rules we have now.
Yes people have said maybe Banshees/Incubi will become troops (with or without the special character) but right now you don't even get a patrol.
You can forge a narrative for unit inclusions - but you could do that with everything.
As I see it its just meat for ebay. People who want to pick up the old units will probably do so cheaply, people who want the characters and Bashees/Incubi will pay a premium - but less than buying a whole set.
Tbh I just don't think its a good release. Shadowspear was a whole box of new releases. This is just... two characters, and some re-imagined models. Which is nice, and I know some have wanted these out of finecast for ages, but meh. It doesn't re-birth CW/DE/Ynnari etc as a faction unless the book is full of new rules. There isn't much that is "new" to collect.
There is enough whining on this forum as it is - but I'd have preferred a more meaty release. This feels a bit "here's some Eldar stuff, now get back in your box, its time for even more Primaris."
Neither Falcon or Vyper are unviable, they're just not the best. When compared to similar units in other factions, they are in fact better.
But they are old models, and they don't have rules or stratagems to build things around them. The best you can do with Vypers is fall back and charge with Vigilus detachment. Well and get extra AP, although at a big cost.
The most you can do with Falcon is fill a Brigade somehow.
That is a good point. Both units are just kinda... boring? You want fire power? You aren't exactly going to look at a Falcon or Vyper.
The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.
Indeed. With Ynnari, Scourges can benefit from the many melee buffs. Because that's exactly what ranged units with abysmal melee stats need.
Well at least they can benefit from Stratagems like Fire and Fade, Lightning Fast Reactions and Deadly Misdirection. Oh, wait, all of those are already in the DE codex.
At least there's the Yncarne's aura . . . oh, wait, they already have a 6+++ from PfP.
I guess that leaves psychic powers? Cool, I'll just add in a DE psyker and, oh, there aren't any. Seems like something of a missed opportunity for a release called Psychic Awakening, but I guess that level of creativity isn't permitted for non-Marines.
So in the meantime, I guess we have the joy of including either Yvraine or else allying in Eldar, all for the purposes of applying psychic powers to a mediocre unit that is unlikely to survive even a single enemy turn.
kingheff wrote: I do think people underestimate the falcon, with the built in pulse laser, a bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix it's 137 PTS. A wave serpent with twin bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix costs 167 PTS for worse firepower but greater survivability.
I'm happy to add a third one to my collection and I'm starting to build up drukhari so the box is great for me.
I can understand people who are upset that they can't get the new units separately but they're replacement models, you can use the old ones until the new ones are available.
The new rules will still apply to old sculpts after all.
It's the same thing with a Vyper -- 40 points for 6 T5 wounds. They're all decent units, but they don't outshine haywire / reapers / spears so they don't get used and people think they're bad.
And if Vypers / Falcons are as bad as people think then those optimistic for the changes could see them go crazy cheap on eBay.
When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people. Heck even supressors are still not released and those are the poster boys in power armour!!
GW seems to have a very strange release cadence for box premiering models. In AoS Flesh-Eater Courts had their strongest hero premier in Carrion Empire box. The box sold like hotcakes and now more than 6 months later the Arch-Regent is nowhere to be bought on the GW website.
The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.
Indeed. With Ynnari, Scourges can benefit from the many melee buffs. Because that's exactly what ranged units with abysmal melee stats need.
Well at least they can benefit from Stratagems like Fire and Fade, Lightning Fast Reactions and Deadly Misdirection. Oh, wait, all of those are already in the DE codex.
At least there's the Yncarne's aura . . . oh, wait, they already have a 6+++ from PfP.
I guess that leaves psychic powers? Cool, I'll just add in a DE psyker and, oh, there aren't any. Seems like something of a missed opportunity for a release called Psychic Awakening, but I guess that level of creativity isn't permitted for non-Marines.
So in the meantime, I guess we have the joy of including either Yvraine or else allying in Eldar, all for the purposes of applying psychic powers to a mediocre unit that is unlikely to survive even a single enemy turn.
All trough i don`t think Scourges will get any update in this release, complaining before the release and before CA is kind of strange.
The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.
Indeed. With Ynnari, Scourges can benefit from the many melee buffs. Because that's exactly what ranged units with abysmal melee stats need.
Well at least they can benefit from Stratagems like Fire and Fade, Lightning Fast Reactions and Deadly Misdirection. Oh, wait, all of those are already in the DE codex.
At least there's the Yncarne's aura . . . oh, wait, they already have a 6+++ from PfP.
I guess that leaves psychic powers? Cool, I'll just add in a DE psyker and, oh, there aren't any. Seems like something of a missed opportunity for a release called Psychic Awakening, but I guess that level of creativity isn't permitted for non-Marines.
So in the meantime, I guess we have the joy of including either Yvraine or else allying in Eldar, all for the purposes of applying psychic powers to a mediocre unit that is unlikely to survive even a single enemy turn.
All trough i don`t think Scourges will get any update in this release, complaining before the release and before CA is kind of strange.
Except that most of the above are complaints about Ynnari, not Scourge. And GW has already said that all they're doing is copying and pasting the Ynnari rules into the new book.
Also, we already know that there are no new DEHQs and certainly no psychic abilities for DE, so I don't see what's wrong with my pointing that out.
kingheff wrote: I do think people underestimate the falcon, with the built in pulse laser, a bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix it's 137 PTS. A wave serpent with twin bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix costs 167 PTS for worse firepower but greater survivability.
I'm happy to add a third one to my collection and I'm starting to build up drukhari so the box is great for me.
I can understand people who are upset that they can't get the new units separately but they're replacement models, you can use the old ones until the new ones are available.
The new rules will still apply to old sculpts after all.
It's the same thing with a Vyper -- 40 points for 6 T5 wounds. They're all decent units, but they don't outshine haywire / reapers / spears so they don't get used and people think they're bad.
And if Vypers / Falcons are as bad as people think then those optimistic for the changes could see them go crazy cheap on eBay.
Vypers squad size is the reason the unit cant get popular, spell and stratagems are stronger in higher model units and only 3 is to limited for the value provided.
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wuestenfux wrote: The only viable unit in competitive play is the Venom.
Everything else is nice to have. Hands down.
The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.
Indeed. With Ynnari, Scourges can benefit from the many melee buffs. Because that's exactly what ranged units with abysmal melee stats need.
Well at least they can benefit from Stratagems like Fire and Fade, Lightning Fast Reactions and Deadly Misdirection. Oh, wait, all of those are already in the DE codex.
At least there's the Yncarne's aura . . . oh, wait, they already have a 6+++ from PfP.
I guess that leaves psychic powers? Cool, I'll just add in a DE psyker and, oh, there aren't any. Seems like something of a missed opportunity for a release called Psychic Awakening, but I guess that level of creativity isn't permitted for non-Marines.
So in the meantime, I guess we have the joy of including either Yvraine or else allying in Eldar, all for the purposes of applying psychic powers to a mediocre unit that is unlikely to survive even a single enemy turn.
All trough i don`t think Scourges will get any update in this release, complaining before the release and before CA is kind of strange.
Except that most of the above are complaints about Ynnari, not Scourge. And GW has already said that all they're doing is copying and pasting the Ynnari rules into the new book.
Also, we already know that there are no new DEHQs and certainly no psychic abilities for DE, so I don't see what's wrong with my pointing that out.
We talked to much for the Ynnari and it hurts when you see the new SM rules, but that is what you get.
Gulliman when he came out was packaged with 2 other characters. I was lucky, I had a CSM and grey knight army so it was conveniant for me, but a lot of people ended up buying characters they didn't need to get Guliman. furthermore, are we forgeting that until recently you couldn't buy a Primaris Leuitenant outside of a boxed set? And then Space Wolves still have to buy a primaris box for their Leuitenant.
ohh and Marine players STILL can't buy a Primaris ancient without buying dark Imperium.
To be fair, Primaris Lieutenants don't require ANY conversion from a regular Primaris, except maybe mounting on a 40mm base instead of 32mm. Literally just paint lieutenant stripes on him. If you want him to have a power sword, any SM power sword will do.
Space Wolf Lieutenant only being available in SC Primaris Space Wolves isn't a big issue - none of the units in the box are bad and the Lieutenant is basically free along with discounted, useful kit. And again, any Primaris can be turned into a Lieutenant with minimal effort.
Primaris Ancient needs to be a separate model, but as long as Dark Imperium is in print GW won't bother. But old marine players probably have banners floating around for an easy conversion. The old Space Marine Command Squad is cheaper than a single Primaris character model and has bits to convert a Primaris Ancient, Apothecary as well as power sword bits and such.
Gravis Captains are arguably harder to come by/convert, but Know No Fear is worth it for the marines alone.
Basically Space Marine players spend VERY little extra to acquire or convert needed models, and end up with useful models in bundles.
None of this can be done with the new Eldar plastic resculpts.
Man I've got mixed feelings about this kit. On the one hand, being released in a combo box will mean plenty of after market sellers will get selling off the units cheaply(ish). So I'd except 5 Banshee + Jain Zar or the 5 Incubi + Drazhar to be less than $50 each. 5 models + a Character for less than what we expected for just the 5 models won't be bad.
But OTOH, this does not bode well for the other Aspects. Using Shadowspear and similar boxes, I think it's safe to say GW's release pattern is clearly "big kit to increase huge sales", then maybe piecemeal the individual kits months/years later. As mentioned above, several units released in Shadowspears STILL do not have separate kits and don't seem to fit in with what we know is coming in the next few months (though that could change as the story unfolds)
If GW holds to this style, I think it is safe to assume the other Aspects are still years away
Gw is very random with when models go on individual sale from duel box releases. Some models appear really fast, other times they appear with significant lag time. How many new models and such doesn't even seem to factor into it.
Eg Warcry got its starter set stuff on sale really fast, whilst Skaven and Flesh Eaters still don't have the individual models from a duel set released way back around the start of the year.
And GW is still selling individual finecast Ur-Ghuls at a very steep price, even though they have created a plastic Ur-Ghul model for Blackstone Fortress...
@Tyel- Good point about the lack of troops. You're right that's a barrier for a new player- didn't really see it because of my campaign blinders.
@jacob29- I get it; I'm not trying to invalidate your point of view, but yes, you should be thankful, because as anyone who's been playing since second ed will tell you that in previous editions, some armies went the ENTIRE edition without an update. What you should be thankful for is that this edition isn't like that. I'm not saying it's as good as it can be (it isn't); I'm not saying that we don't have a long way to go (we do). What I'm saying is that the release schedule for this edition has given something to everyone, which is better than we've ever had. In 27 months, 24 factions got dexes, numerous box sets, Apocalypse and Kill team to take the game into other scales, both EPIC and Aeronautica to take the scale of models to different places, and now a second wave of updates for every single faction?
If you think this is slow, the nineties would have killed you and the aughts weren't much better. Sorry my perspective makes me sound like a grumpy old man, but this company is sweating blood for us right now. On top of what they've done for 40k in 27 months, they've worked just as hard for AoS.
@vipoid- You make several good points about the playability of scourges in Ynarri army; your points are valid, and perhaps they will be addressed in the new material. However, in my post, I wasn't talking about rules. I meant that story wise, Mercs are important for the Ynarri.
I know that most of Dakka a) generally seems to focus more on rules than the story b) may hate the Ynarri storyline specifically. But GW doesn't make games for Dakka.
The comments that you make regarding the inclusion of Scourges in Ynarri units indicate that for you, no matter how appropriate the story connection, you're not going to include them unless their rules work for you. I get that, and it's a valid point of view.
But for me, the opposite is true. No matter how killy-table dominant a model makes my army, I will not include it unless the story works. And scourges work well in a Ynarri story, even if the rules are a mismatch.
I´m happy that the Eldar are getting some love. Jain Zar was always the Phoenix Lord that I wanted to get, so the Boxed set is going to be an Xmas gift I hope...
But...
Why did they have to go with the 5 eldar aspect banshees for the new plastics, like the dire Dire Avengers, when they could have gone for the full 10 person squad. It looks like that Exarch has to be an exarch, judging by its base, which means making a full ten banshee squad requires the purchase of three boxes of five.
Eldar have always been shafted on the box numbers, compared to squad numbers, but this´ll be taking it too far, if true. At least in resin you only need two boxes to make the full squad.
PenitentJake wrote: @vipoid- You make several good points about the playability of scourges in Ynarri army; your points are valid, and perhaps they will be addressed in the new material. However, in my post, I wasn't talking about rules. I meant that story wise, Mercs are important for the Ynarri.
Ah, okay. I hadn't realised you were speaking entirely from the fluff perspective.
PenitentJake wrote: The comments that you make regarding the inclusion of Scourges in Ynarri units indicate that for you, no matter how appropriate the story connection, you're not going to include them unless their rules work for you. I get that, and it's a valid point of view.
But for me, the opposite is true. No matter how killy-table dominant a model makes my army, I will not include it unless the story works. And scourges work well in a Ynarri story, even if the rules are a mismatch.
That's perfectly fair.
It's also one of my long-running bugbears with 40k, though - I don't like having to choose between fluff and function.
In this example, you want to use Scourges in a Ynnari army because of the fluff. And that's great. However, given that (as you say) they are meant to work with Ynnari in the fluff, I find it very disappointing that they have almost no synergy with one another.
The worst news is that five-unit boxes are inevitably far worse priced than even 10 model boxes....so enjoy that. And if the "new" Banshee rules don't fix them as a unit, they're still absolute garbage, but now they're expensive plastic garbage instead of expensive finecast garbage! Rejoice!
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
Elbows wrote: The worst news is that five-unit boxes are inevitably far worse priced than even 10 model boxes....so enjoy that. And if the "new" Banshee rules don't fix them as a unit, they're still absolute garbage, but now they're expensive plastic garbage instead of expensive finecast garbage! Rejoice!
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
Well I'm surprised they are locked into a box set release-seems like GW are limiting availability - is this due to their factory issues struggling to keep up with demand?
The kit looks nice, shame there isn't any weapon options for the banshees but the frames do look packed, would be interested to see the alternative heads.
The little shrine/statue is a nice thing- adds to the one on the Dire Avenger set and the Incubi set has one as well. Have to say I really like the incubi and Drazhar looks really good in the video.
Still the set is a bit pricey ..
Elbows wrote: The worst news is that five-unit boxes are inevitably far worse priced than even 10 model boxes....so enjoy that. And if the "new" Banshee rules don't fix them as a unit, they're still absolute garbage, but now they're expensive plastic garbage instead of expensive finecast garbage! Rejoice!
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
So you've seen all the rules? Care to share?
Why don't you read that response again, with both eyes open. Then respond like an adult.
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
$70 is not more than Primaris on my site [Canadian Dollars]- it is, in fact, the exact cost of any ten man Primaris box. Furthermore, the specialist primaris units come in boxes of 3, not 5, and the most expensive of those three-man boxes is $60. Primaris are a lot of things, but cheaper than other minis is not one of them.
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
$70 is not more than Primaris on my site [Canadian Dollars]- it is, in fact, the exact cost of any ten man Primaris box. Furthermore, the specialist primaris units come in boxes of 3, not 5, and the most expensive of those three-man boxes is $60. Primaris are a lot of things, but cheaper than other minis is not one of them.
Check the flag on the side of the post, he's talking USD.
5 Dire Avengers are $45 CAD. I doubt Howling Banshees will be cheaper.
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
$70 is not more than Primaris on my site [Canadian Dollars]- it is, in fact, the exact cost of any ten man Primaris box. Furthermore, the specialist primaris units come in boxes of 3, not 5, and the most expensive of those three-man boxes is $60. Primaris are a lot of things, but cheaper than other minis is not one of them.
Check the flag on the side of the post, he's talking USD.
5 Dire Avengers are $45 CAD. I doubt Howling Banshees will be cheaper.
Hope not, DA are priced to punish aeldar players. for 5-6 pounds more you get full tactical squad(10 models) for 10 more you get intercessor squad(10 models). We know both of them have more weapons and are bigger models.
DA realistic price is like 15-16 pounds, not over 22 like it`s now.
If that is truth 180 euros for a box, i`ll have to wait for the separate release. Those boxes will not be sold and will meat the fate of Apocalypse box, the one that was not sold and retailers still have it.
If that is truth 180 euros for a box, i`ll have to wait for the separate release. Those boxes will not be sold and will meat the fate of Apocalypse box, the one that was not sold and retailers still have it.
Its hard to read.
180 Euro is a bit too much if you ask me.
kingheff wrote: It's 140 something! Can't tell if it's pounds or euros though.
Either pounds or euros, box is a hard pass from me and I ADORE banshees! Too pricy for something which will probably never see combat on the table or just get curb stomped.
I mean, since when did GW need to follow scales of currency ? They'll charge what they wish regardless of relation to the pound. Though the cost increases are worth it, each model comes with a little magic dust mixed in with the plastic. Expensive to catch all those pixies and shake them out over plastic.
That said, I hear its 140 pounds, not sure if that will be the same with euros. I'd guess for the dollar but could be 185$ to around 200$ is more my guess.
Edit: A discount for AUD ? I wish they would but I really doubt it better brace for impact in the land down under.
Has somebody calculated the raw value of the box?
I mean Scourges, Hellions, Venoms, Vypers, Falcons have given prices.
But the prices for Jain Zar, 5 Banshees, Drahzar, 5 Incubi need to be estimated.
It'll shake out being something of a discount. Though its still expensive as heck when all most people really want are the new models.
We talking cost for each in the box ? Considering it's bloated with crap, I'm sure the models people want will be considered cheap when taken into account of all the offerings.
What they'll sell for once they come out singleton ? For the USD, I'd say 45$ or 50$ for box of 5. The characters will be 35$ each.
Going by that, I'd say just the new models will be like 170$, so if you wanted all of them, that puts all the rest at around 30$ give or take depending on US price. Which should end up around the same savings for the other money amounts.
A good deal, if you actually want all of it. If you actually wanted to just get the new plastic kits you're still spending an awful lot on things you'd not want. Still feels like a shame for the people who wanted the new models. I doubt they'll even be all that cheap online as people are going to realize those are the models people want, just a hunch there so softest discount if any will be there and the rest they could charge half off for and still make out well.
For anyone wondering of loose guesstimation of what to expect to pay. I'd bet you'd be looking at around 35 to 40 for the 5 man squads, and around 25 30 for the characters, assuming they don't charge near imagined retail knowing people will pay it.
140 pounds puts it outside of what I want to pay for a box.
I did a quick calculation. Let's say the heroes are 25 pound each(seems standard for heroes these days) and that the new banshee and incubi units are now 30 each(I'd be surprised if GW doesn't raise it from 25 to 30). That brings the new units to be about 110 pounds.
The Scourges and Hellions equal 35 pounds
Vyper is 20 pounds.
Falcon is 32.5 pounds
venom is 20 pounds.
So total of 217.5 pounds. It is decent savings, but it is a savings of units that few people use and/or already have enough of. For me the only thing that entices me is the Venom and the new units and that would cost me 130 pounds; 10 pounds under the current price.
I am going to be very curious about how well this sells. How it sells will probably be an indicator of future box prices and what GW might do.
I'm a bit disappointed with the box, regardless of the price. I want Drazhar and the Incubi for friendly games, and another Venom is never bad. On the other hand, while Scourges are decent, and Hellions can be ok, I just don't really want them.
There is nothing of interest to me on the Asuryani side, and even if I wanted to play with an Aeldari soup army, those aren't the units I'd be interested in.
Well, a basic question is: will we see Jain Zar and Drahzar as blisters and Banshees and Incubi as box sets in the near future?
Or will they only be sold in the whole box say for the next year?
wuestenfux wrote: Well, a basic question is: will we see Jain Zar and Drahzar as blisters and Banshees and Incubi as box sets in the near future?
Or will they only be sold in the whole box say for the next year?
I feel GW has sorta got the gotcha idea, get it now as it may not be available for 6 months on some things. As well as limited avail blitz to encourage sales now. So you don’t miss out.
wuestenfux wrote: Has somebody calculated the raw value of the box?
I mean Scourges, Hellions, Venoms, Vypers, Falcons have given prices.
But the prices for Jain Zar, 5 Banshees, Drahzar, 5 Incubi need to be estimated.
$350 USD, give or take $5-10, this is assuming each new character is $35 and the new 5mans are $45.
I may be wrong but I think this is supposed to be a "get started" with aeldari soup box, probably ynarri since it's close combat focused.
As for banshees, they don't do much damage but they're super fast and ignoring overwatch is awesome. Most armies only have relics for that and we can get it on a 65 PT unit, they're a useful tool beyond their damage potential.
kingheff wrote: I may be wrong but I think this is supposed to be a "get started" with aeldari soup box, probably ynarri since it's close combat focused.
As for banshees, they don't do much damage but they're super fast and ignoring overwatch is awesome. Most armies only have relics for that and we can get it on a 65 PT unit, they're a useful tool beyond their damage potential.
It’s kinda a bad start no matter which faction you play, and with it’s price. And the Ynarri box itself being prices on top. It’s a flash box, that probably only exists this way to extract as much out of players of all the Eldar as much as possible,
kingheff wrote: I may be wrong but I think this is supposed to be a "get started" with aeldari soup box, probably ynarri since it's close combat focused.
As for banshees, they don't do much damage but they're super fast and ignoring overwatch is awesome. Most armies only have relics for that and we can get it on a 65 PT unit, they're a useful tool beyond their damage potential.
It’s kinda a bad start no matter which faction you play, and with it’s price. And the Ynarri box itself being prices on top. It’s a flash box, that probably only exists this way to extract as much out of players of all the Eldar as much as possible,
Indeed, its not a way to start Asuryani or Drukhari.
The only viable option (in competitive play) is the Venom. The rest is situational.
Eldarsif wrote: 140 pounds puts it outside of what I want to pay for a box.
I did a quick calculation. Let's say the heroes are 25 pound each(seems standard for heroes these days) and that the new banshee and incubi units are now 30 each(I'd be surprised if GW doesn't raise it from 25 to 30). That brings the new units to be about 110 pounds.
The Scourges and Hellions equal 35 pounds
Vyper is 20 pounds.
Falcon is 32.5 pounds
venom is 20 pounds.
So total of 217.5 pounds. It is decent savings, but it is a savings of units that few people use and/or already have enough of. For me the only thing that entices me is the Venom and the new units and that would cost me 130 pounds; 10 pounds under the current price.
I am going to be very curious about how well this sells. How it sells will probably be an indicator of future box prices and what GW might do.
The problem is currently from reselers you could get:
Scourges 14 pounds
Venom 15 pounds
and people don`t really want Falcon and Vyper in the first place, i say GW screwed this box like they did with the Apocalypse.
New Banshees and Incubi should not be more than 25 pounds and the some price can be expected for Jain Zar and the Draznar.
It`s look smarted to wait for the separate release or just purchase old models. Yea it will be sad that aeldar new release will fail, but the greed just run over the top.
Even people who want to start new aeldar army will be pushed away.
Sorry, my post wasn't super clear. I meant it's meant to encourage single faction aeldari players to start collecting the other side.
And of course, we can rule out any consideration of competitiveness in the contents, no box sets we've seen before take that into account from what I've seen.
kingheff wrote: Sorry, my post wasn't super clear. I meant it's meant to encourage single faction aeldari players to start collecting the other side.
And of course, we can rule out any consideration of competitiveness in the contents, no box sets we've seen before take that into account from what I've seen.
Even then it has nothing really as a starter box, just a very poor starter all around. No matter which way you go. It’s also looking expensive. So not a great point to jump in if half the box is useless to a good portion of players starting.
If they are going to use it to push Ynarri then it’s probably rather awkward at that since you need one of the characters I thought, useless that changes.
Considering they are the only thing holding the faction as anything more than sales bait.
I'm surprised there has only been one comment so far about the return of the triskele. I guess we'll see soon enough from the rules whether it will ever be worth taking. I don't think I have ever seen somebody take it previously.
Elbows wrote: The worst news is that five-unit boxes are inevitably far worse priced than even 10 model boxes....so enjoy that. And if the "new" Banshee rules don't fix them as a unit, they're still absolute garbage, but now they're expensive plastic garbage instead of expensive finecast garbage! Rejoice!
Assuming, for some reason, they're priced as low as five-model kits can be...around $35, that still translates to $70 per ten, or more than huge Primaris marine models (who also have numerous weapon options, etc.). If you're lucky they'll be priced at $40-45 to properly kick your teeth in.
So you've seen all the rules? Care to share?
Why don't you read that response again, with both eyes open. Then respond like an adult.
Oof - you're right. I apologize for reading to hastily.
so 280CAD for the box according to marin's post. Yikes, guess i'll be scouring ebay then, and im part of the people that actually would like all the minis in the box.
VladimirHerzog wrote: so 280CAD for the box according to marin's post. Yikes, guess i'll be scouring ebay then, and im part of the people that actually would like all the minis in the box.
I'd hold off on that, unless Naftka actually has the emails like War of Sigmar does.
It looks like GW has been tweaking some stuff a bit, as Beastgrave was showing up as $75USD when going through price banding but ended up at a lower price band.
VladimirHerzog wrote: so 280CAD for the box according to marin's post. Yikes, guess i'll be scouring ebay then, and im part of the people that actually would like all the minis in the box.
I'd hold off on that, unless Naftka actually has the emails like War of Sigmar does.
It looks like GW has been tweaking some stuff a bit, as Beastgrave was showing up as $75USD when going through price banding but ended up at a lower price band.
VladimirHerzog wrote: so 280CAD for the box according to marin's post. Yikes, guess i'll be scouring ebay then, and im part of the people that actually would like all the minis in the box.
I'd hold off on that, unless Naftka actually has the emails like War of Sigmar does.
It looks like GW has been tweaking some stuff a bit, as Beastgrave was showing up as $75USD when going through price banding but ended up at a lower price band.
VladimirHerzog wrote: so 280CAD for the box according to marin's post. Yikes, guess i'll be scouring ebay then, and im part of the people that actually would like all the minis in the box.
I'd hold off on that, unless Naftka actually has the emails like War of Sigmar does.
It looks like GW has been tweaking some stuff a bit, as Beastgrave was showing up as $75USD when going through price banding but ended up at a lower price band.
I was really looking forward to these but now i'm not. Overall it doesnt help what it needs to help and keeps the Kabal venom spam top meta.
The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.
Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).
Why does Kabal get +3" movement? They already have that, give the +3" to Wych fly units would have been amazing, Reavers/Hellions with +3" base, meaning a drug on Hellions for +5" movement, that is something i would have done, no Kabal, they already have flawed skull. Give us something "Different".
Over all these are bad IMO, it doesnt help the weak units and just makes the strong units stay strong, it doesnt help the units in the correct ways either.
Coven outside of FW doesnt get a Ravager with its Keyword nor the Flyers (and i dont trust FW right now, i'm ignoring the Reaper/Tantalus b.c Legends), if the new obsessions and keywords helps coven with Raider+Grots, like +3" movement and disembarked after moving +charge, then yes i will give up PoF, but they made no attempt to change play styles or help out units so far.
I really hope these new obsessions can be used for each other and not as a subfaction wall.
Amishprn86 wrote: I was really looking forward to these but now i'm not. Overall it doesnt help what it needs to help and keeps the Kabal venom spam top meta.
The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.
Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).
Why does Kabal get +3" movement? They already have that, give the +3" to Wych fly units would have been amazing, Reavers/Hellions with +3" base, meaning a drug on Hellions for +5" movement, that is something i would have done, no Kabal, they already have flawed skull. Give us something "Different".
Over all these are bad IMO, it doesnt help the weak units and just makes the strong units stay strong, it doesnt help the units in the correct ways either.
Coven outside of FW doesnt get a Ravager with its Keyword nor the Flyers (and i dont trust FW right now, i'm ignoring the Reaper/Tantalus b.c Legends), if the new obsessions and keywords helps coven with Raider+Grots, like +3" movement and disembarked after moving +charge, then yes i will give up PoF, but they made no attempt to change play styles or help out units so far.
I really hope these new obsessions can be used for each other and not as a subfaction wall.
FWIW, many of the Space Marine traits are like this as well: You get half of one of the "canonical chapter" traits as one of your flexi-traits. I would expect this as a theme going forward. I know they referenced CWE having the ability to take the current Ulthwe trait as one of the flexi-traits as well, which makes sense to me.
Amishprn86 wrote: I was really looking forward to these but now i'm not. Overall it doesnt help what it needs to help and keeps the Kabal venom spam top meta.
The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.
Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).
Why does Kabal get +3" movement? They already have that, give the +3" to Wych fly units would have been amazing, Reavers/Hellions with +3" base, meaning a drug on Hellions for +5" movement, that is something i would have done, no Kabal, they already have flawed skull. Give us something "Different".
Over all these are bad IMO, it doesnt help the weak units and just makes the strong units stay strong, it doesnt help the units in the correct ways either.
Coven outside of FW doesnt get a Ravager with its Keyword nor the Flyers (and i dont trust FW right now, i'm ignoring the Reaper/Tantalus b.c Legends), if the new obsessions and keywords helps coven with Raider+Grots, like +3" movement and disembarked after moving +charge, then yes i will give up PoF, but they made no attempt to change play styles or help out units so far.
I really hope these new obsessions can be used for each other and not as a subfaction wall.
FWIW, many of the Space Marine traits are like this as well: You get half of one of the "canonical chapter" traits as one of your flexi-traits. I would expect this as a theme going forward. I know they referenced CWE having the ability to take the current Ulthwe trait as one of the flexi-traits as well, which makes sense to me.
But thats not what DE needs to make the less playable units more playable, i understand that pattern, but if it wasnt working already redoing it witht he same thing isnt going to work again. A few minor changes and we could have had more playable units.
Shadenuat wrote: It's just a few. Craftworlds get 22 different traits, Drukhari probably have more too.
Obviously. It's hardly a "customizable" kabal if you have a choice of two traits out of a list of... two!
I'm hoping we still have the +6'' range option. As an Obsidian Rose player, I've come to rely on it a lot. I would have a hard time getting used to 18'' blasters and 12'' shredders.
Honestly I liked the look of the box. I collect Eldar, among others, but not "dark Eldar". This would have been a gateway moment.
But then I saw the price.
I had got two of the RoChaos box, double Karanak! But I won´t be getting this box. Sadly, If Banshees come in at over 25 quid a box (for 5) I won´t be getting more of them either. The decision to go to 5 Dire Avengers in a box turned me off Eldar originally. Thin old models should not have cost so much per figure.
Personally I feel that GW have missed an opportunity to get more people into Eldar Soup in this box. Price notwithstanding the two vehicle models for Craftworlders were a turnoff. The price though, is the absolute killer.
Laffin wrote: Honestly I liked the look of the box. I collect Eldar, among others, but not "dark Eldar". This would have been a gateway moment.
But then I saw the price.
I had got two of the RoChaos box, double Karanak! But I won´t be getting this box. Sadly, If Banshees come in at over 25 quid a box (for 5) I won´t be getting more of them either. The decision to go to 5 Dire Avengers in a box turned me off Eldar originally. Thin old models should not have cost so much per figure.
Personally I feel that GW have missed an opportunity to get more people into Eldar Soup in this box. Price notwithstanding the two vehicle models for Craftworlders were a turnoff. The price though, is the absolute killer.
I doubt this will sell out like Shadowspear.
I found someone playing DE in my local group that wants to split the box. We were planing on getting two.. If its indeed 140 this may well change i need to speak with the dude once it goes on pre orders. I hope we can get a hefty discount... Thats a f$€"n outrage compared to shadowdpear which was all new kits.
Rules wise, unless you are playing verry narrative the aspect cw trait for extra damage on 6's in cc is very weak sauce and should realy maybe be a strategem. Thats because CC is just weak sauce in general. I just dont see building an army around it. Potentialy with the new power and court of the young king you could add 5 to charge rolls? Its solid but once your charge is done your stuff is dead meat once whatever left falls back and your t3 dudes get shot up by their chaff... so seems like a wierd thing to invest your army trait in..
Rerolling ones to wound on Wraiths though is interesting. I can see that working nice with some ds wraiths. With doom being a thing youd just doom whatever you are concentrating fire anyway. Also as said yo wound most stuff on 2's so unless you are attacking t8(which you would have doomed anyway) it seems of very little benefit.
Yes yes i havent seen all of the rules... obviously. before the "wyou havent seen all the rules" comments drop consider this:
They usualy preview the best rules so im just not expecting there being anything better than current alitoic.
The box sales price if true leave a sour taste...
The craftworld rules though seem a bit underwhelming but with 22 im.holding off making a judgement. Im hoping it will breathe some fresh air into the eldar army.
I think the shuri weapon traits strong. I hope they do something for spinners weapons. Would have been nice if the shuri weapon trait extended to spinners to build some spinner spider armies. But as such with the 12" caveat the trait lends itself to guardian bombs+doom making that an even more prevailent choice which is already played to death combination.
The some price is on spikerbits, 180 euros for the box is insane.
It has a codex in it, so...maybe?
It doesn't have the campaign book so you have to buy that separately increasing your total spending for all of this.
Blood of the Phoneix does come with a 40 page campaign book. The separate release "Phoenix Rising" is a 80 page book with additional content. I'm assuming its an expanded version of Blood of the Phoenix.
no blood of the pheonix will be completely differnt. still 40 pages is pretty beefy. by comparison shadowspear and tooth and claw where 22 pages. So there will proably be some decent new lore in the box
A lot of people are talking about the models in the box being poor choices, and that is totally fair- you can't start an army without troops, so it's not a starter, and the models aren't the most competitive in the list. Fair.
But it's a campaign box; the models in it are chosen for the role they play in the story. I get that everyone wanted a competitive battle box, or that something for the new player to the faction would have been more useful. But this box was never going to be that, and neither are any of the other boxes coming for PA. Some will be more competitive than this, some probably less; some will be better for new players and some less so.
But ALL of the models will be a part of the ongoing story. That is what a campaign box is designed for.
Personally, I love the idea, and I'd like to buy this and the book to go with it. But Sisters are just around the corner, and I'm not sure I can afford both. The book, I think is a no brainer- it will bring me a ton of new reading and list hammer to play with, and I can integrate some of the material into our existing campaign.
The box though... I'll wait to see how it clocks in at my FLGS, and if I think I can swing it, I will. With new models in it, the box will continue to be available for a while.
Amishprn86 wrote: I was really looking forward to these but now i'm not. Overall it doesnt help what it needs to help and keeps the Kabal venom spam top meta.
The Kabal ones just make Venoms and Flyers strong (they already are strong now), Venoms with +3" movement and +1D, Flyers as wych with +1 wound, and no one is taking the coven b.c coven is unplayable with PoF.
Kabal already has +3" movement, that SHOULD have been for the Wyches (it would make Hellions and Reavers more playable), the +1 invul SHOULD be able to take with another trait b.c its a terrible trait alone (or it should just have been +1 to all invuls always if it was stand alone).
Why does Kabal get +3" movement? They already have that, give the +3" to Wych fly units would have been amazing, Reavers/Hellions with +3" base, meaning a drug on Hellions for +5" movement, that is something i would have done, no Kabal, they already have flawed skull. Give us something "Different".
Over all these are bad IMO, it doesnt help the weak units and just makes the strong units stay strong, it doesnt help the units in the correct ways either.
Coven outside of FW doesnt get a Ravager with its Keyword nor the Flyers (and i dont trust FW right now, i'm ignoring the Reaper/Tantalus b.c Legends), if the new obsessions and keywords helps coven with Raider+Grots, like +3" movement and disembarked after moving +charge, then yes i will give up PoF, but they made no attempt to change play styles or help out units so far.
I really hope these new obsessions can be used for each other and not as a subfaction wall.
This is pretty much a fraction of the traits. These will be combined with others to make the full trait.
PenitentJake wrote: A lot of people are talking about the models in the box being poor choices, and that is totally fair- you can't start an army without troops, so it's not a starter, and the models aren't the most competitive in the list. Fair.
But it's a campaign box; the models in it are chosen for the role they play in the story. I get that everyone wanted a competitive battle box, or that something for the new player to the faction would have been more useful. But this box was never going to be that, and neither are any of the other boxes coming for PA. Some will be more competitive than this, some probably less; some will be better for new players and some less so.
But ALL of the models will be a part of the ongoing story. That is what a campaign box is designed for.
Personally, I love the idea, and I'd like to buy this and the book to go with it. But Sisters are just around the corner, and I'm not sure I can afford both. The book, I think is a no brainer- it will bring me a ton of new reading and list hammer to play with, and I can integrate some of the material into our existing campaign.
The box though... I'll wait to see how it clocks in at my FLGS, and if I think I can swing it, I will. With new models in it, the box will continue to be available for a while.
Most people expected to get full 10 man squad of banshees/incubi, but personally i was going to get the book on decent price.
Wake the death was half the price, shadowspear was 35 pounds cheaper with all the new models and dark imperium was like 95 pounds.
There is no justification of that price, i think GW are losing their mind because of their recent success.
There is no justification of that price, i think GW are losing their mind because of their recent success.
Well...if the rumored prices are true (I'll use Canadian dollars, so $280 CAD), the value of the contents - using the old finecast model prices at that for Jain/Banshee/Incubi/Drazhar, plus a $30 book is $405 CAD. Now you can be sure that Jain/Draz will sell for 50 CAD at retail (not 30 CAD), so closer to $445 CAD. So the contents are costed at 63% retail of all the separate stuff, and I haven't counted the dice or cards yet.
And yes, this assumes that the new plastic Banshees/Incubi are 50 CAD for 5 (price for finecast, though you get 6 banshees at that price), and I think we'll be lucky if they're 40 CAD for 5. So you could ball-part the value a bit lower, maybe, but the collection is still going to be at least 30% off buying them separate. Has anyone priced it out in USD or GBP?
There is no justification of that price, i think GW are losing their mind because of their recent success.
Well...if the rumored prices are true (I'll use Canadian dollars, so $280 CAD), the value of the contents - using the old finecast model prices at that for Jain/Banshee/Incubi/Drazhar, plus a $30 book is $405 CAD. Now you can be sure that Jain/Draz will sell for 50 CAD at retail (not 30 CAD), so closer to $445 CAD. So the contents are costed at 63% retail of all the separate stuff, and I haven't counted the dice or cards yet.
And yes, this assumes that the new plastic Banshees/Incubi are 50 CAD for 5 (price for finecast, though you get 6 banshees at that price), and I think we'll be lucky if they're 40 CAD for 5. So you could ball-part the value a bit lower, maybe, but the collection is still going to be at least 30% off buying them separate. Has anyone priced it out in USD or GBP?
Assuming new characters will increase with 10 pounds, the some as the new primaris heroes.
Banshees and Incubi are counted the some, because you are getting one less model and they are already priced the some range as marines.
Sum 207.5 pounds. So -32% discount, but ofcourse you get alot of models you maybe don`t want.
For instance only the marine part of the shadow spear coast the some as the full box.
30 Eliminators (3 models)
30 Infiltrators - maybe more because you were getting 10 in the box.
20 Captain in Phobos armor
20 Librarian in Phobos armor
20 Lieutenant in Phobos
30 Suppressors - still not sold as a kit (3 models)
So i stand corrected you get models only for the SM side equal to 150 pounds, assuming the CSM coast is relatively the some - 300 pounds of models.
It`s 65% discount for a bunch of new models, only the SM side have 19 new models and FULL eldar box have only 12.
I`m starting to think GW started to hate aeldar players.
They didn't start to hate eldar players, I don't think GW hate any of the players. I think they are just crazy with the greed and really this makes me start to sweat the sisters release which I'm holding out for.
Sorry to see it happen Eldar players, my love goes out to you. I really don't like the new model hostage taking GW seems so found of and with the box cost, I doubt they'll even be that great of a discount pieced out as I'm sure they will know what models everyone wants.
Edit: I hope the PA book comes out great at least.
AngryAngel80 wrote: They didn't start to hate eldar players, I don't think GW hate any of the players. I think they are just crazy with the greed and really this makes me start to sweat the sisters release which I'm holding out for.
Sorry to see it happen Eldar players, my love goes out to you. I really don't like the new model hostage taking GW seems so found of and with the box cost, I doubt they'll even be that great of a discount pieced out as I'm sure they will know what models everyone wants.
Edit: I hope the PA book comes out great at least.
New model hostage format? GW's been making models unique to their stuff for a long time now. 4th edition had some terrain that was unique to it. 5th edition had a number of Ork units unique. 6th edition had the CSM chosen and a few Cultist sculpts. Dark Imperium has a number of HQs.
One just hopes the Banshee's have more in common with Space Marine Infiltrators then Space Marine supressors.
There is no justification of that price, i think GW are losing their mind because of their recent success.
Well...if the rumored prices are true (I'll use Canadian dollars, so $280 CAD), the value of the contents - using the old finecast model prices at that for Jain/Banshee/Incubi/Drazhar, plus a $30 book is $405 CAD. Now you can be sure that Jain/Draz will sell for 50 CAD at retail (not 30 CAD), so closer to $445 CAD. So the contents are costed at 63% retail of all the separate stuff, and I haven't counted the dice or cards yet.
And yes, this assumes that the new plastic Banshees/Incubi are 50 CAD for 5 (price for finecast, though you get 6 banshees at that price), and I think we'll be lucky if they're 40 CAD for 5. So you could ball-part the value a bit lower, maybe, but the collection is still going to be at least 30% off buying them separate. Has anyone priced it out in USD or GBP?
Assuming new characters will increase with 10 pounds, the some as the new primaris heroes.
Banshees and Incubi are counted the some, because you are getting one less model and they are already priced the some range as marines.
Sum 207.5 pounds. So -32% discount, but ofcourse you get alot of models you maybe don`t want.
For instance only the marine part of the shadow spear coast the some as the full box.
30 Eliminators (3 models)
30 Infiltrators - maybe more because you were getting 10 in the box.
20 Captain in Phobos armor
20 Librarian in Phobos armor
20 Lieutenant in Phobos
30 Suppressors - still not sold as a kit (3 models)
So i stand corrected you get models only for the SM side equal to 150 pounds, assuming the CSM coast is relatively the some - 300 pounds of models.
It`s 65% discount for a bunch of new models, only the SM side have 19 new models and FULL eldar box have only 12.
I`m starting to think GW started to hate aeldar players.
You are right in your calculations Marin, there is an image (of GW to suppliers announcing the prices of Blood of the Phoenix) and they claim the discount is a 30% over normal stand alone price of kits.
There is no justification of that price, i think GW are losing their mind because of their recent success.
Well...if the rumored prices are true (I'll use Canadian dollars, so $280 CAD), the value of the contents - using the old finecast model prices at that for Jain/Banshee/Incubi/Drazhar, plus a $30 book is $405 CAD. Now you can be sure that Jain/Draz will sell for 50 CAD at retail (not 30 CAD), so closer to $445 CAD. So the contents are costed at 63% retail of all the separate stuff, and I haven't counted the dice or cards yet.
And yes, this assumes that the new plastic Banshees/Incubi are 50 CAD for 5 (price for finecast, though you get 6 banshees at that price), and I think we'll be lucky if they're 40 CAD for 5. So you could ball-part the value a bit lower, maybe, but the collection is still going to be at least 30% off buying them separate. Has anyone priced it out in USD or GBP?
Assuming new characters will increase with 10 pounds, the some as the new primaris heroes.
Banshees and Incubi are counted the some, because you are getting one less model and they are already priced the some range as marines.
Sum 207.5 pounds. So -32% discount, but ofcourse you get alot of models you maybe don`t want.
For instance only the marine part of the shadow spear coast the some as the full box.
30 Eliminators (3 models)
30 Infiltrators - maybe more because you were getting 10 in the box.
20 Captain in Phobos armor
20 Librarian in Phobos armor
20 Lieutenant in Phobos
30 Suppressors - still not sold as a kit (3 models)
So i stand corrected you get models only for the SM side equal to 150 pounds, assuming the CSM coast is relatively the some - 300 pounds of models.
It`s 65% discount for a bunch of new models, only the SM side have 19 new models and FULL eldar box have only 12.
I`m starting to think GW started to hate aeldar players.
You are right in your calculations Marin, there is an image (of GW to suppliers announcing the prices of Blood of the Phoenix) and they claim the discount is a 30% over normal stand alone price of kits.
Seems true.
The boxset is 180 € while the value of the content is about 270 € (without the written stuff).
PenitentJake wrote: A lot of people are talking about the models in the box being poor choices, and that is totally fair- you can't start an army without troops, so it's not a starter, and the models aren't the most competitive in the list. Fair.
But it's a campaign box; the models in it are chosen for the role they play in the story. I get that everyone wanted a competitive battle box, or that something for the new player to the faction would have been more useful. But this box was never going to be that, and neither are any of the other boxes coming for PA. Some will be more competitive than this, some probably less; some will be better for new players and some less so.
But ALL of the models will be a part of the ongoing story. That is what a campaign box is designed for.
This is a very romantic notion, but the fluff/campaigns are designed in order to support the minitatures in the box, not the other way around.
Well you see, when I see Falcons and Vypers, I get romantic. I remember that time, in a campaign long ago, when I fell in love with a group of rascally scourges. Then, we wined, dined and shared that thing called, the love train. That was before, the hellions arrived, brutes to the man, and we ran, we ran so far away, had to get away. That was when we hoped a ride with a passing vyper, and eventually a kindly falcon gave us a lift into town.
Those were the days I tell ya, you never have friends like that again, like the ones when you were young. So snatch up that box today ya'll ! The cost feels high, but those memories, they're worth twice the price.
PenitentJake wrote: A lot of people are talking about the models in the box being poor choices, and that is totally fair- you can't start an army without troops, so it's not a starter, and the models aren't the most competitive in the list. Fair.
But it's a campaign box; the models in it are chosen for the role they play in the story. I get that everyone wanted a competitive battle box, or that something for the new player to the faction would have been more useful. But this box was never going to be that, and neither are any of the other boxes coming for PA. Some will be more competitive than this, some probably less; some will be better for new players and some less so.
But ALL of the models will be a part of the ongoing story. That is what a campaign box is designed for.
This is a very romantic notion, but the fluff/campaigns are designed in order to support the minitatures in the box, not the other way around.
Yep, basically they're trying to build a box set that will sell at a discount but with models that have had a price increase in recent months and with no clear idea who they are trying to sell it to. On the Drukhari side of things there's no troops making it a bad starter, Hellions are amazing models but amongst the worst units in the game so at this point every Drukhari player out there has a few collecting dust on a shelf whilst Scourge are a good unit but every Drukhari player has loads of them already for use in game and because they make excellent conversion fodder (I have 40 Scourge at the moment, I can't even make use of that many). The Venom's the only thing that people may want more of but even then, I've got 6 already, I don't need a 7th.
Craftwowrlds are even worse. Really long time Craftworld players will already have enough Vypers and Falcons for a lifetime, but both units no longer have a useful role in the army (too many other things can do the same more efficiently) and thats it. No troops, no nothing other than the new plastics.
I'm guessing this boxset will be a failure and struggle to sell because nobody at GW thought carefully enough about who they are trying to sell it to.
Dunno how they justify a 33% price increase compared to shadowspear with this model selection.
I'm not very optimistic for the success of this box and it's too bad since it seems a decent amount of people would have bought the new miniatures if they could.
dhallnet wrote: Dunno how they justify a 33% price increase compared to shadowspear with this model selection.
I'm not very optimistic for the success of this box and it's too bad since it seems a decent amount of people would have bought the new miniatures if they could.
Indeed, I would be in the boat if the price were 130€.
With a 10% discount you get Free Falcon, Vyper, Hellions, Scourges compare to normal Retail, its 33% (without discount) its $130USD cheaper than retail (Falcon 55, Vyper 35, Hellion 30, Scourge 30, totaling 150, with the 23 off for the 10% thats $153USD of free models).
So really you are only paying for the 4 unit units and the venom, everything else is free.
Take that information how you want, just i am a numbers person, so i need to see all the numbers before i buy.
Amishprn86 wrote: With a 10% discount you get Free Falcon, Vyper, Hellions, Scourges compare to normal Retail, its 33% (without discount) its $130USD cheaper than retail (Falcon 55, Vyper 35, Hellion 30, Scourge 30, totaling 150, with the 23 off for the 10% thats $153USD of free models).
So really you are only paying for the 4 unit units and the venom, everything else is free.
Take that information how you want, just i am a numbers person, so i need to see all the numbers before i buy.
Or you can get 2x banshees/incubi and jain zar/draznar for half of the price to get the full squad and skip on the two units you don`t need.
Scourges, Venoms and Hellions are sold by retailers super cheap, you save 70 pounds for units you want/need.
I think anyone that doesnt factor in discount from 3rd party retailers and the second hand market is not realy honestly representing the value of the box.
You can buy those bnos for more than 33% if you look hard enough. I got a bnos scourges for converting for £12... ya know ? On paper gw prices it sure looks like a good deal.
The reality is once you factor in the 3rd party retailers and their 20% discount and the knock on effect on the second hand market its not a good deal at all. For example the wraith models are everywhere on ebay nos Due to them being in apoc and start collecting boxes they are saturated on the second hand market. Why pay £32.50 for a WL if you can get it for £20 or less by doing one quick ebay search.
However you dress it its a hefty tax on 2 new kits for your faction be that DE or CWE. It just is.
dhallnet wrote: Dunno how they justify a 33% price increase compared to shadowspear with this model selection.
I'm not very optimistic for the success of this box and it's too bad since it seems a decent amount of people would have bought the new miniatures if they could.
The combination of a "leftovers" box and the price is what truly kills it. At 230 USD, I would expect to have 10 banshees and 10 incubi instead of 5 of each. And for whats actually in the box, I'd expect to pay ~180 USD rather than 230.
They chose to squeeze the customers from both ends by trying to clear inventory and also charging a premium for it. I don't see how this thing is gonna sell either
For the price they are charging they need to sweeten the deal considerably by giving almost exclusively new kits and not warehouse leftovers like Vypers and Falcons.
I mean, maybe they are changing the rules for Vypers, Falcons, and Hellions in the next campaign book so they are a must-have, but I doubt it.
Argive wrote: I think anyone that doesnt factor in discount from 3rd party retailers and the second hand market is not realy honestly representing the value of the box.
Not at all. Value can be compared to other examples quite easily independently of MSRP/3rd party. The Shadowspear comparison is really valid - a box of entirely new models from more popular armies at basically 50% off retail, and none of the units are bottom tier.
Argive wrote: I think anyone that doesnt factor in discount from 3rd party retailers and the second hand market is not realy honestly representing the value of the box.
Not at all. Value can be compared to other examples quite easily independently of MSRP/3rd party. The Shadowspear comparison is really valid - a box of entirely new models from more popular armies at basically 50% off retail, and none of the units are bottom tier.
Being ETB kits makes them a bit cheaper. There was also no codex. Given these are on a proper sprue we can expect real boxes a lot sooner than normal. The codex might make this box limited appeal, but then people will be able to tag rules on eBay for bottom dollar.
Eldarsif wrote: For the price they are charging they need to sweeten the deal considerably by giving almost exclusively new kits and not warehouse leftovers like Vypers and Falcons.
I mean, maybe they are changing the rules for Vypers, Falcons, and Hellions in the next campaign book so they are a must-have, but I doubt it.
I think if they threw in the phoenix rising book it would be worth it just about. Im still splitting a box or two with a friend at 20-25% off. Will resell one of jain zars and maskless heads at a premium plus one of the fqlcons but still feels like getting taken to the cleaners..
Eldarsif wrote: For the price they are charging they need to sweeten the deal considerably by giving almost exclusively new kits and not warehouse leftovers like Vypers and Falcons.
I mean, maybe they are changing the rules for Vypers, Falcons, and Hellions in the next campaign book so they are a must-have, but I doubt it.
I think if they threw in the phoenix rising book it would be worth it just about. Im still splitting a box or two with a friend at 20-25% off. Will resell one of jain zars and maskless heads at a premium plus one of the fqlcons but still feels like getting taken to the cleaners..
As long as people keep buying, GW will keep doing it.
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