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Eventually can be a pretty long time though. Like that one tech guy from Kill teams, did he ever get dropped on his own yet ? The one who increased ranges for units near him I forget his name. I avoided that box, waiting for his single drop. Still waiting.

It took quite awhile for the assassins to come out single from when they got their new plastic kits. That's just naming a couple off the top of my head. How long did it take to get cawl as a single buy ? The people waited quite awhile why make them wait what could be quite awhile longer just to avoid adding dead models to their collections ?

 Crimson wrote:
They will be sold separately eventually.

When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people. Heck even supressors are still not released and those are the poster boys in power armour!!

I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.

I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...

 Argive wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They will be sold separately eventually.

When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people.

I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.

I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...

Yes, it is annoying. And I'm sure GW is counting on people not wanting to wait and just buying the whole box now. And then they have that other half they don't need... Unless they start a second army now that they already have these models... Considering that GW keeps doing this, it probably works.

 Crimson wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They will be sold separately eventually.

When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people.

I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.

I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...

Yes, it is annoying. And I'm sure GW is counting on people not wanting to wait and just buying the whole box now. And then they have that other half they don't need... Unless they start a second army now that they already have these models... Considering that GW keeps doing this, it probably works.

I'll be curious to see how it sells. I just can't get pumped for 5 of each new release in the box. We know they're capable of not pinching like this, there was a full squad of 10 infiltrators matched to 10 chaos marines in Shadowspear.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?

It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.

If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.

Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.

They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.

People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.

Dumb Smart Guy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
They will be sold separately eventually.

When did shadowspear drop ?
The new oblits and greater possessed are still nowhere in sight for those people.

I don't expect the eldar kits to be on top of a pile for stand alone release.

I'm hoping there are some local DE players that would want the DE half but I don't think anyone plays DE at my local...

Yes, it is annoying. And I'm sure GW is counting on people not wanting to wait and just buying the whole box now. And then they have that other half they don't need... Unless they start a second army now that they already have these models... Considering that GW keeps doing this, it probably works.

I'll be curious to see how it sells. I just can't get pumped for 5 of each new release in the box. We know they're capable of not pinching like this, there was a full squad of 10 infiltrators matched to 10 chaos marines in Shadowspear.

true but infiltrators and CSMs are troops. the trend these days seems to be "troops in boxes of ten.. everything else in 5s"

 Daedalus81 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?

It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.

If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.

Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.

They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.

People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.

I disagree.

Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..

Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?

 Argive wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?

It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.

If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.

Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.

They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.

People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.

I disagree.

Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..

Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?

If their datasheets are changed they could all be more playable, so really we don't know right now. They said their will be new rules, not only just traits and custom traits.

 Argive wrote:

I disagree.

Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..

Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?

The same type of people convinced to run land speeders / grav cannons / etc due to the marine supplements.

With updated Wych Cults its entirely possible things like Hellions could be useful (given a meta that needs them).

No they said the banshees and DE dudes are getting new data sheets and exarch table.

Then new make your own CWE trait SM style in phoenix rising. (which are highly unlikely to be better than alitoic lets be honest...)

If you are saying "Well how do you know the vypers and xyz wont suddenly become viable" those things need more than an army trait to fix.
And old stuff does not get new data sheets.

Im not being pessimistic and obtuse on purpose for the hell of it.. I'm just calling it what it is. Getting taxed for new models by being forced to buy a bunch of old low tier garbage I already own and not use.

Can you imagine the salt if they released two new kits like a new primarch for marines then put them in a bundle with tac marines and a rhino??
this is that. But it isint because marines don't have to wait for 15 years for new kits.

 Argive wrote:
No they said the aspects and DE dudes are getting new data sheets and aspect tables.

Then new make your own CWE trait SM style in phoenix rising. (which are highly unlikely to be better than alitoic lets be honest...)

If you are saying "Well how do you know the vypers and xyz wont suddenly become viable" those things need more than an army trait to fix mate. And old stuff does not get new data sheets.

Remember when Possessed went to 2 wounds? Old stuff gets updates. There is plenty that can change outside a data sheet as well.

 Argive wrote:
No they said the banshees and DE dudes are getting new data sheets and exarch table.

Then new make your own CWE trait SM style in phoenix rising. (which are highly unlikely to be better than alitoic lets be honest...)

If you are saying "Well how do you know the vypers and xyz wont suddenly become viable" those things need more than an army trait to fix.
And old stuff does not get new data sheets.

Im not being pessimistic and obtuse on purpose for the hell of it.. I'm just calling it what it is. Getting taxed for new models by being forced to buy a bunch of old low tier garbage I already own and not use.

Can you imagine the salt if they released two new kits like a new primarch for marines then put them in a bundle with tac marines and a rhino??
this is that. But it isint because marines don't have to wait for 15 years for new kits.

They said a codex size release with new rules, never said only those 4 units. Also, yes they can become viable, remember more traits are going out, "High Altitude and Maiden World" along with customizeable traits. Just like IH made some units better, these traits can too.

 Argive wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It a box to sell models that are terrible in game.

Sadly i'll get it. Mostly b.c it will be cheaper than normal, i'm guess 180USD for 250USD worth of models, and with a discount i should be only paying 150 for it, the 4 new units are about that price anyways. (Just guessing)

BUT the last bit of information in the video has me excited.

Are you referring to the bit about yrvaine being hunted by slanesh creature and it all "coming to a crescendo"?

Personally, I hope that means the death of Yrrvaine death of ynarri concept bringing the failed experiment to an end..And then maybe they can stick to making cool CWE units without trying to push the narative that eldar just run towards death like mindless lemings because of plot... The new short story "the path" was so stupid it made me hurt on the inside.. Obv everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I know a lot of people will disagree.

Actually it looks to me Jain Zar will be the first reborn phoenix lord and the first named character allowed for the Ynnari after the change.

Marin wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It a box to sell models that are terrible in game.

Sadly i'll get it. Mostly b.c it will be cheaper than normal, i'm guess 180USD for 250USD worth of models, and with a discount i should be only paying 150 for it, the 4 new units are about that price anyways. (Just guessing)

BUT the last bit of information in the video has me excited.

Are you referring to the bit about yrvaine being hunted by slanesh creature and it all "coming to a crescendo"?

Personally, I hope that means the death of Yrrvaine death of ynarri concept bringing the failed experiment to an end..And then maybe they can stick to making cool CWE units without trying to push the narative that eldar just run towards death like mindless lemings because of plot... The new short story "the path" was so stupid it made me hurt on the inside.. Obv everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I know a lot of people will disagree.

Actually it looks to me Jain Zar will be the first reborn phoenix lord and the first named character allowed for the Ynnari after the change.

Ynnari forever half assed, it was a cool idea that if the design studio put some effort in could have been a great 3rd faction for eldar. GW has to know that these sorta things require more than minimum effort at design.

 Argive wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok, what if they do keep gak rules ? What then ? Is the under wear wadding able to continue then ?

It's a lame thing they are doing. People have waited and wanted some of these models and would probably buy lots of them, locking it into an over expensive box bundle is poor taste. I say over expensive but we'll see what they charge I suppose.

If it had to be a group why not just bundle the new models with the book ? It's the same thing they do with every mechanicus box bundle, tech priest dominus, he's everywhere. I have 4 and I only ever went out of my way to get 1 of them, I just can't avoid them if I try and save money of Ad mech.

Edit: I can't wait till some unique new ad mech stuff drops in a bundle I've been waiting for, only to see two more tech priest dominus in the box. I'll feel like most feel seeing the contents of that box, sadness and indignation that soon I'll have, another one. Like the un used vyper, or falcon or scourges that most don't even remember I imagine.

They'll get divvied up onto eBay. There's no point in worrying about the other models being good or not right now.

People pretty much got Shadowspear unit viability entirely wrong.

I disagree.

Shadowspear was 100% new kits.
Shadowspear stuff was, and is still is going for a premium on ebay. I know because I made a tidy profit to buy eldar stuff with..

Venoms are semi sellable as venom spam is a thing competitively..
Whose going to buy helions, falcons, scourges, and vypers?

Shadowspear is premium now because it`s out of stock, on release you could buy halfs on better price than retailers.
And some point and rule adjustment could make you think different of this units.
I think Skari is using scourges already and i saw list with Ynnari Hellions. Vyper and Falcons are also not so bad as people think, vypers just suffer because of ITC rules and Falcon small capacity and high price make him not preferable as the wave serpent.

It always surprised me how people bend over backwards to put a good spin on GWs model tax to new units people actually want.

This is an unforced error, it isn't a blessing in disguise they charge you more for models people most likely already have/don't use. Even if they make falcons better, vypers, all the DE stuff, who doesn't already have them if they play those factions ?

They've had years collect them with no new kits to speak of. There are actual good models they could have put in there, as is the venom is about the only good one aside from the new sculpts.

Shadowspear was all new stuff aside from chaos space marines.

If they wanted to be consumer friendly they'd have the box option, and the individual option to pick up plenty of what you actually want. This is customer fleecing for models players have waited a long time for. Sure they can probably sell the old models, at a large discount I'm sure if people want them much at all aside from the venom which will probably sell fine.

I'm not even annoyed for me, I'm annoyed for the Eldar players. I can wait for Drazhar which is the only model in the list I want as I have tons of Incubi.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It always surprised me how people bend over backwards to put a good spin on GWs model tax to new units people actually want.

This is an unforced error, it isn't a blessing in disguise they charge you more for models people most likely already have/don't use. Even if they make falcons better, vypers, all the DE stuff, who doesn't already have them if they play those factions ?

They've had years collect them with no new kits to speak of. There are actual good models they could have put in there, as is the venom is about the only good one aside from the new sculpts.

Shadowspear was all new stuff aside from chaos space marines.

If they wanted to be consumer friendly they'd have the box option, and the individual option to pick up plenty of what you actually want. This is customer fleecing for models players have waited a long time for. Sure they can probably sell the old models, at a large discount I'm sure if people want them much at all aside from the venom which will probably sell fine.

I'm not even annoyed for me, I'm annoyed for the Eldar players. I can wait for Drazhar which is the only model in the list I want as I have tons of Incubi.

I think you are annoyed for nothing, old CWE players have old banshees for sure and they can use them, get banshees from ebay or just wait for the separate release.
I have crazy DE player who is ready to get 3 or even 4 boxes and split it with me. I can sell the units i don`t need and refund some of the money.
The real problem is new players still don`t have good Eldar starting pack, not single troop choice included is really terrible.

Well that is good for you, not everyone is so lucky though and I'm sure even more would love to have picked up a couple groups of the plastic banshees without needing to wait.

There is no reason to do this but to be typical GW. It lacking troops just makes it double bad as it has little point even for a new player let alone a vet.

You shouldn't need to refund money back from units you don't need, you should be able to buy just what you actually want. That shouldn't be a luxury feature.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well that is good for you, not everyone is so lucky though and I'm sure even more would love to have picked up a couple groups of the plastic banshees without needing to wait.

There is no reason to do this but to be typical GW. It lacking troops just makes it double bad as it has little point even for a new player let alone a vet.

You shouldn't need to refund money back from units you don't need, you should be able to buy just what you actually want. That shouldn't be a luxury feature.

Yea, i know what you mean, but new Eliminators are 30 pounds, i got the half of the kit for 40 pounds(from ebay). The boxes value is always good, i also hopped we will get 10 banshees, but you see what you get.

I do think people underestimate the falcon, with the built in pulse laser, a bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix it's 137 PTS. A wave serpent with twin bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix costs 167 PTS for worse firepower but greater survivability.
I'm happy to add a third one to my collection and I'm starting to build up drukhari so the box is great for me.
I can understand people who are upset that they can't get the new units separately but they're replacement models, you can use the old ones until the new ones are available.
The new rules will still apply to old sculpts after all.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
It always surprised me how people bend over backwards to put a good spin on GWs model tax to new units people actually want.

This is an unforced error, it isn't a blessing in disguise they charge you more for models people most likely already have/don't use. Even if they make falcons better, vypers, all the DE stuff, who doesn't already have them if they play those factions ?

They've had years collect them with no new kits to speak of. There are actual good models they could have put in there, as is the venom is about the only good one aside from the new sculpts.

Shadowspear was all new stuff aside from chaos space marines.

If they wanted to be consumer friendly they'd have the box option, and the individual option to pick up plenty of what you actually want. This is customer fleecing for models players have waited a long time for. Sure they can probably sell the old models, at a large discount I'm sure if people want them much at all aside from the venom which will probably sell fine.

I'm not even annoyed for me, I'm annoyed for the Eldar players. I can wait for Drazhar which is the only model in the list I want as I have tons of Incubi.

Could be worse, Could be getting more space Marines i do not want. And the dark elder bits i use for one of my craftworlds for kill team, So i guess this is sorta a step up. But i think i have several falcons now in boxes.

Only 5 in the box, I super anoying tho >.< that will probably be the point i decide if i want the box at all on for. 5 is just annoying.

As a Drukhari player I'm really happy that some new rules are incoming.

I want Drazhar and the Incubi for use in friendly games, while the rest of the models are shades of less interesting to me. More Venoms is never a bad option, Scourges are already decent, and Hellions look good.

I suspect I'd probably be best served buying off eBay, as the Asuryani stuff is off no use to me.

We get datsheets in the box for everything in the box. It is possible there are changes to any of them. It's also possible there aren't. The book that comes in the box is fluff and scenarios.

The dex worth of updates is part of the PA book- that doesn't come in the box.

I understand the frustration of long term players that already have all of the other models. But don't forget that new players are a thing. This box is perfect for me. (Not a new player, but new to playing eldar of any sort). I'm particularly happy about the hellions- I need some to run escort duty for a beast master who is on a quest to enthrall an Ambull and bring it back to his wych cult's arena.

They may suck in tournaments (and I don't care at all) but they are crucial to my narrative (which is the only thing that has ever really mattered to me).

I think the stand alones will come at Christmas.

The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.

Is it ALSO true that they were underselling and that this may be a way to fix that? Probably. But that doesn't mean that the fluffy, story based reason is less valid, or that it doesn't exist.

I also love it when people talking about things taking a long time. When I look back to 89, which is when I started playing, nothing is a long time.

If you've only been playing five years, you may not yet have realized that this game will be there for the rest of your life and beyond. What? Some of the Shadowspear models aren't available as stand alones yet? Less than a year after release?

Hardly a reason to get apoplectic. If you want it bad enough, it's available. If you don't it'll come. Maybe not for a full year- heck they may even make you wait two. They can do this, because, because if you want it bad enough, it's still there.


I

 Argive wrote:

Can you imagine the salt if they released two new kits like a new primarch for marines then put them in a bundle with tac marines and a rhino??
this is that. But it isint because marines don't have to wait for 15 years for new kits.

Gulliman when he came out was packaged with 2 other characters. I was lucky, I had a CSM and grey knight army so it was conveniant for me, but a lot of people ended up buying characters they didn't need to get Guliman. furthermore, are we forgeting that until recently you couldn't buy a Primaris Leuitenant outside of a boxed set? And then Space Wolves still have to buy a primaris box for their Leuitenant.

ohh and Marine players STILL can't buy a Primaris ancient without buying dark Imperium.

PenitentJake wrote:
I also love it when people talking about things taking a long time. When I look back to 89, which is when I started playing, nothing is a long time.

If you've only been playing five years, you may not yet have realized that this game will be there for the rest of your life and beyond. What? Some of the Shadowspear models aren't available as stand alones yet? Less than a year after release?

Hardly a reason to get apoplectic. If you want it bad enough, it's available. If you don't it'll come. Maybe not for a full year- heck they may even make you wait two. They can do this, because, because if you want it bad enough, it's still there.
I

Ah I should be happy that I have the priviledge to wait 6+ months to buy a unit I want to field.

How honoured I am.

Why even post what you posted? It's undefendable. They have the molds, they have the models. They just would rather stick em in a box and move other stock as well.

kingheff wrote:
I do think people underestimate the falcon

Neither Falcon or Vyper are unviable, they're just not the best. When compared to similar units in other factions, they are in fact better.

But they are old models, and they don't have rules or stratagems to build things around them. The best you can do with Vypers is fall back and charge with Vigilus detachment. Well and get extra AP, although at a big cost.
The most you can do with Falcon is fill a Brigade somehow.

PenitentJake wrote:
We get datsheets in the box for everything in the box. It is possible there are changes to any of them. It's also possible there aren't. The book that comes in the box is fluff and scenarios.

The dex worth of updates is part of the PA book- that doesn't come in the box.

I understand the frustration of long term players that already have all of the other models. But don't forget that new players are a thing. This box is perfect for me. (Not a new player, but new to playing eldar of any sort). I'm particularly happy about the hellions- I need some to run escort duty for a beast master who is on a quest to enthrall an Ambull and bring it back to his wych cult's arena.

They may suck in tournaments (and I don't care at all) but they are crucial to my narrative (which is the only thing that has ever really mattered to me).

I guess there will be a magic "don't worry about it/make it legal" detachment - but I don't think this is good for new players, because there is no way to make either force a valid army with the rules we have now.
Yes people have said maybe Banshees/Incubi will become troops (with or without the special character) but right now you don't even get a patrol.

You can forge a narrative for unit inclusions - but you could do that with everything.

As I see it its just meat for ebay. People who want to pick up the old units will probably do so cheaply, people who want the characters and Bashees/Incubi will pay a premium - but less than buying a whole set.

Tbh I just don't think its a good release. Shadowspear was a whole box of new releases. This is just... two characters, and some re-imagined models. Which is nice, and I know some have wanted these out of finecast for ages, but meh. It doesn't re-birth CW/DE/Ynnari etc as a faction unless the book is full of new rules. There isn't much that is "new" to collect.

There is enough whining on this forum as it is - but I'd have preferred a more meaty release. This feels a bit "here's some Eldar stuff, now get back in your box, its time for even more Primaris."

Oh well. Roll on Sisters.

 Shadenuat wrote:

kingheff wrote:
I do think people underestimate the falcon

Neither Falcon or Vyper are unviable, they're just not the best. When compared to similar units in other factions, they are in fact better.

But they are old models, and they don't have rules or stratagems to build things around them. The best you can do with Vypers is fall back and charge with Vigilus detachment. Well and get extra AP, although at a big cost.
The most you can do with Falcon is fill a Brigade somehow.

That is a good point. Both units are just kinda... boring? You want fire power? You aren't exactly going to look at a Falcon or Vyper.

You want mobility? Again neither.

They just need something unique.

PenitentJake wrote:

The reason scourges are included is that they are a merc choice. With the Ynarri storyline stuff, mercs are interesting because they have no loyalty to their kin. Ynarri gives them a role beyond their mercenary ways, and that sense of purpose could recruit many to the cause.

Indeed. With Ynnari, Scourges can benefit from the many melee buffs. Because that's exactly what ranged units with abysmal melee stats need.

Well at least they can benefit from Stratagems like Fire and Fade, Lightning Fast Reactions and Deadly Misdirection. Oh, wait, all of those are already in the DE codex.

At least there's the Yncarne's aura . . . oh, wait, they already have a 6+++ from PfP.

I guess that leaves psychic powers? Cool, I'll just add in a DE psyker and, oh, there aren't any. Seems like something of a missed opportunity for a release called Psychic Awakening, but I guess that level of creativity isn't permitted for non-Marines.

So in the meantime, I guess we have the joy of including either Yvraine or else allying in Eldar, all for the purposes of applying psychic powers to a mediocre unit that is unlikely to survive even a single enemy turn.

kingheff wrote:
I do think people underestimate the falcon, with the built in pulse laser, a bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix it's 137 PTS. A wave serpent with twin bright Lance and crystal targeting matrix costs 167 PTS for worse firepower but greater survivability.
I'm happy to add a third one to my collection and I'm starting to build up drukhari so the box is great for me.
I can understand people who are upset that they can't get the new units separately but they're replacement models, you can use the old ones until the new ones are available.
The new rules will still apply to old sculpts after all.

It's the same thing with a Vyper -- 40 points for 6 T5 wounds. They're all decent units, but they don't outshine haywire / reapers / spears so they don't get used and people think they're bad.

And if Vypers / Falcons are as bad as people think then those optimistic for the changes could see them go crazy cheap on eBay.