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I think they need to establish the Ynnari as their own faction with their own models, not merely borrowing from the other Eldar factions. The problem though seems to be the capacity of GW to do so given how many existing Craftworld units still need updating from Finecast.

Well, it appears that GW wants to promote Ynnari a bit by releasing new cc units, Banshees and Incubi.
This has been said above and seems reasonable.
But Ynnari is the wrong concept in competitive play these days,
since this edition is geared towards shooting, not assault.
Even if it would, Ynnari would still be too weak.
The really strong Aeldari cc units are coven-based and are not accessible to Ynnari.

Iracundus wrote:
I think they need to establish the Ynnari as their own faction with their own models, not merely borrowing from the other Eldar factions. The problem though seems to be the capacity of GW to do so given how many existing Craftworld units still need updating from Finecast.

Ynnari's main problem isn't just that it has no real unique models save for the leader set; but also that the armies it relies on have dated models. Both Dark and regular Eldar have a lot of finecast models in specialist model roles; meanwhile whilst Dark ahs a lot of modern plastics, Craftworld has a smaller amount of modern plastic kits.

The result is that I think Ynnari is simply reflecting that the core Eldar options are in need of an update, which is exactly what GW is doing right now. I think if they update the core forces and get a lot of the finecast out and even update some plastics too (like the old guardians) then Ynnari will pick up naturally on its own even without releasing more specific models for it and even if those that are specific are simply alternate options from the updating Eldar sets (indeed that's a very good way to add models to a faction that is basically a faction merging mechanic)

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it appears that GW wants to promote Ynnari a bit by releasing new cc units, Banshees and Incubi.
This has been said above and seems reasonable.
But Ynnari is the wrong concept in competitive play these days,
since this edition is geared towards shooting, not assault.
Even if it would, Ynnari would still be too weak.
The really strong Aeldari cc units are coven-based and are not accessible to Ynnari.

Ynnari could have been decent if they had passive trait, soulbrust trait and some movement tricks. It`s make me kind of upset that they were reworked intentionally to be bad and space marines have better powers and trick than them.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, it appears that GW wants to promote Ynnari a bit by releasing new cc units, Banshees and Incubi.
This has been said above and seems reasonable.
But Ynnari is the wrong concept in competitive play these days,
since this edition is geared towards shooting, not assault.
Even if it would, Ynnari would still be too weak.
The really strong Aeldari cc units are coven-based and are not accessible to Ynnari.

Good point, but you're expecting GW to be gearing towards pushing the competitive edge and that just isn't what they do despite claims to the contrary. They're rolling out a narrative campaign and lots of stuff tied to it. Still, I'd expect some more buffs, but until they get a non-index codex you likely won't see the whole sweep like Marines had.

How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.

If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.

 Shadenuat wrote:
How is that a good point? Assault in this edition plays better than ever. There is a lot more freedom in how you move your models during Fight phase, and many factions feature great assault units.

If anything, the best armies are those who can play all phases well and have shooting, magic and assault.

It's a good point that GW is shoring up melee units for Ynnari. That melee is better is somewhat debatable unless you're in the latest batch of marines - then melee is really good. It's getting to melee that is the problem, usually.

I would have loved the Ynnari if they had just been...not...that.

Yvraine: new Lady Malys model.

Visarch: Sure, kind of boring, you could have made him like a new Craftworld named character if you wanted I guess, maybe an Altansar named character to account for his somewhat spooky appearance.

Yncarne: Scrap it entirely, or make it a slaanesh character to release later. Seriously, this thing does not look eldar AT ALL. Release a harlequin character with the eldar triumvirate - either one of the existing ones like Illyana or something new. Hell, if you need one big model per triumvirate give us an avatar of Cegorach or a new Avatar of Khaine!

the_scotsman wrote:
I would have loved the Ynnari if they had just been...not...that.

Yvraine: new Lady Malys model.

Visarch: Sure, kind of boring, you could have made him like a new Craftworld named character if you wanted I guess, maybe an Altansar named character to account for his somewhat spooky appearance.

Yncarne: Scrap it entirely, or make it a slaanesh character to release later. Seriously, this thing does not look eldar AT ALL. Release a harlequin character with the eldar triumvirate - either one of the existing ones like Illyana or something new. Hell, if you need one big model per triumvirate give us an avatar of Cegorach or a new Avatar of Khaine!

Yeah, I remember when the models were first leaked/rumoured and many people (including myself) were sure that Yvraine was actually Lady Malys and the Visarch was either Drazhar/Arhea or even Prince Yriel.
I kinda wish now that they were those characters, so you could still use them in their respective Factions OR as Ynnari

I disagree with Yncarne not looking "Aeldari". Given that Slaanesh entities look the way they do BECAUSE the Aeldari created Slaanesh means the Yncarne looking like that makes perfect sense. I.e the Yncarne doesn't look Slaaneshi, Slaanesh looks Aeldari.
But I will agree that a plastic Avatar of Khaine should have been released instead.

I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me.
Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat

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 Galef wrote:

I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me.
Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat

Because new units sell much better than updated old units, especially if the update is not utterly stunning and drastically better looking than the old version.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me.
Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat

Because new units sell much better than updated old units, especially if the update is not utterly stunning and drastically better looking than the old version.

Maybe "understand" was not the right word. I get that much of what GW releases is based on profit. I get that designers get "inspired" to do new things rather than rehash someone's old work.
But as a customer, it sucks and I don't like it when new stuff comes out while old stuff is in DIRE need of an update. I'd make those things priority as otherwise it sends the message that GW doesn't really care about the older stuff (which may or may not be true, but c'mon)

-

Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?

 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:

I'll never understand why GW releases all new units before updating older kits to plastic. It just seems backwards and neglectful to me.
Make what already exists great (or at least good enough) before adding more bloat

Because new units sell much better than updated old units, especially if the update is not utterly stunning and drastically better looking than the old version.

Maybe "understand" was not the right word. I get that much of what GW releases is based on profit. I get that designers get "inspired" to do new things rather than rehash someone's old work.
But as a customer, it sucks and I don't like it when new stuff comes out while old stuff is in DIRE need of an update. I'd make those things priority as otherwise it sends the message that GW doesn't really care about the older stuff (which may or may not be true, but c'mon)

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The problem is more that the second hand market is so over-saturated with old models that newer models have a hard time competing. Even if they were to release new models with amazing rules people would still mostly go for the second hand market to get it cheaper. It's why it often works better for GW to add a new weapon option to the sprue to boost sales. They did that with the Space Marine updates, Wraithguard, and Drukhari. So for them to reliably update the Aspects to plastic they would have to add options that can sell the kits without being drowned by the second hand ones.

Which is why I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw some new options in the Howling Banshee kit. If they don't add new options that would be an exception to the rule.

I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

Well, what are melee units that can still give a reasonable game these days (despite probably not winning big tournaments)?

Triple Flawless Host Disco Lords Tag-teaming with Morty or some Chaos Knights?
Double-Fighting, outflanking Gallants?
Advance-and-Charge or deepstrike-and-reliably-Charge Assault Centurions?
Twisted Helix Aberrants with all GSC tricks behind them?

I’d be happy if Ynnari Aspect Warriors get to see eye to eye with the “melee-side” of good 40K armies, even if none of those currently hold a candle to the shooty game? It the chances of Eldar actually getting rules to go into fisticuffs with the above and come out on top (~50% of the time) seems improbable.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

I don't think they need new options. The options that exist all need to serve a purpose, and aspects could benefit greatly from better rules that allow them to take special actions, not merely tilting the odds in their favor via math. Dire Avengers old Bladestorm rule, for example.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?

I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were released YEARS ago when they should have been released.

-

My guess is Nightwing-style went to DE (Razorwing has a very similar shape), and for Craftworlds they created something more "good guys" looking.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, what are melee units that can still give a reasonable game these days (despite probably not winning big tournaments)?

That's a bit narrowish point of view. Melee doesn't have to be an all or nothing berserker unit. Just having some melee, like Catachan, is good. Imagine that all your Guardians are suddenly S4. Now not only you can shoot your catapults, but you can also finish some units after. And then what if you can do Ynnari thing and also add them +1A? Now unit does almost twice what it could before.

Blastaar wrote:
I don't think they need new options. The options that exist all need to serve a purpose, and aspects could benefit greatly from better rules that allow them to take special actions, not merely tilting the odds in their favor via math. Dire Avengers old Bladestorm rule, for example.

Yeah, sure. Although some would say the way game is now, with their price DAs should be bladestorming every turn.

 Galef wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Banshees get an update and you're not buying them anyway, so why does it bother you?

I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

So while, no I'm probably not buying any of the new plastic Aspects, I probably would have if they were releases YEARS ago when they should have been released.

-

I have allways wonder if GW have sit way to long on elder. One of the big complaints I had personally see over the years, was sitting and waiting for new minis. I myself quit the game waiting for them, and come back years latter.
And even if I do like the models, I really have no use for any of the aspects now as I built craftworlds that utilise them less. And my biel-tan has long been sold off in the hopes I could re do it. So I may be picking up as a painting project but that is as far as I go.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

I disagree with that, hatters will always find reason to hate or rage. New weapons will benefit other players and could help the unit.

The way I see it's similar to why I buy games without DRM. I like to be treated fairly and unit getting upgrade it needs without changing all my previous Banshees to naginatas or something. So if Banshees would be good just with their swords, it's a point for me to go buy some.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I honestly wish they don't add new options. Because then haters would simply have no moral high ground to climb on, and would have to resort to something like "I never really cared about plastic Aspects".

Which. To be honest, wouldn't be the first time.

There're decades worth of posts on Dakka from people claiming GW should just get on with it and do Rubric Terminators or Dark Angels Terminators with Robes or Plastic Greater Daemons or whatever, and any and all of those would outsell "newly invented" stuff by ridiculous orders of magnitude because that's what "the fans" truly want.

And they all eventually came, people shrugged and moved on.

Fact is that with the nostalgia-glasses off, the 90s GW stuff just isn't nearly as good as contemporary stuff. Not just material and technology-wise, but also idea-, concept- and design-wise. And shackling yourself to the old concepts often as not produces tired old stuff in new plastic, instead of excited new miniatures.

 Galef wrote:
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

What does it matter? I understand if you'd prefer the look of the Nightwing, but I don't think this is what you're saying. What name the plastic Eldar flyer has is pretty damn immaterial.

 Shadenuat wrote:
My guess is Nightwing-style went to DE (Razorwing has a very similar shape), and for Craftworlds they created something more "good guys" looking.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, what are melee units that can still give a reasonable game these days (despite probably not winning big tournaments)?

That's a bit narrowish point of view. Melee doesn't have to be an all or nothing berserker unit. Just having some melee, like Catachan, is good. Imagine that all your Guardians are suddenly S4. Now not only you can shoot your catapults, but you can also finish some units after. And then what if you can do Ynnari thing and also add them +1A? Now unit does almost twice what it could before.

Blastaar wrote:
I don't think they need new options. The options that exist all need to serve a purpose, and aspects could benefit greatly from better rules that allow them to take special actions, not merely tilting the odds in their favor via math. Dire Avengers old Bladestorm rule, for example.

Yeah, sure. Although some would say the way game is now, with their price DAs should be bladestorming every turn.

I think Dire Avengers proc on a 5+ would be neat and not game breaking.

All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Avenger Armour when introduced was the same 4+ Marine Power Armour was.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Fact is that with the nostalgia-glasses off, the 90s GW stuff just isn't nearly as good as contemporary stuff

On the contrary, I think classics works great, and was what drawn people in to begin with, and continues to - contemporary is boring, while old things fascinate people. It's just that some people are hypocrites.

 Daba wrote:
All Aspect Armour should be improved by 1 tick.

Maybe when Primaris would completely replace old marines, it would make sense to make Aspects highly damaging MEQs.

 Crimson wrote:

 Galef wrote:
It's kind of an old OCD complaint of mine actually. There are so many cool old models that would look great in plastic, but they get passed up for stuff that never existed before.
The Nightwing is a great example. For years the Nightwing was the most common Eldar jetfighter in the fluff. Yet when CWE got a plastic Flyer kit, did it include the Ngihtwing? No, GW made up 2 completely new units that "always existed before", but didn't exist before.

What does it matter? I understand if you'd prefer the look of the Nightwing, but I don't think this is what you're saying. What name the plastic Eldar flyer has is pretty damn immaterial.

It matters because we have a situation in which there were already TOO many options and instead of bringing all options somewhat on par with each other (both model-wise and gameplay-wise), GW is just adding more to the heap.
Don't get me wrong, having options is great, but sometimes there are just too many to sort through which can be daunting even to experienced players (especially when an edition change turns "good" options into bad ones and vice versa). It also isn't "fair" that some options seem to forever remain in an inferior medium forcing extra effort be made to get them table-ready.

Given the slow drip of this release, I'm not even expecting all Aspects are getting updated. Just Banshees and Incubi (which aren't even Aspects and had good looking models albeit Failcast).
It would just be so nice for everything to be plastic before new stuff comes out.

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Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.

And yeah, we probably won't get all aspects, but as the plastic version seem to be pretty much identical to resin versions, that's hardly not a big deal. Resin is fine for models with no options.

I mean if I could get Dark Reapers that don't look awkward and silly that would be great, but I really don't much care whether the stupid looking Reapers are plastic or resin.

 Crimson wrote:
Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.

Yes, but around the time the Eldar Flyer was release, several FW only models had been brought over to GW plastic. Nid Trygon, Baneblade, Stompa, etc. So, at the time, it just seem inevitable that the Nightwing would AT LEAST be 1 of the builds in the dual kit.

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 Galef wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Nightwing was a FW model. The whole purpose of FW is to add unnecessary options.

Yes, but around the time the Eldar Flyer was release, several FW only models had been brought over to GW plastic. Nid Trygon, Baneblade, Stompa, etc. So, at the time, it just seem inevitable that the Nightwing would AT LEAST be 1 of the builds in the dual kit.

-

Or FW is going to die soon and GW moves on not giving us any of the models. B.c of lack of support in 8th, and that insane price hike, along with 3rd party being at worst only about 20% less quality in materials (most are just as good, if not better, i have seen better sadly) for a 1/5 of the cost! Less and less are even buying from FW. I honestly can see FW going away in the next few years unless something changes.