Scrabb wrote: Look the long and short of it is RJ wanted some ww1 action in his movie and got it.
Which, to be fair, is very much what George Lucas did in the first Star Wars. Most of the model shots/movements of X-wings & Tie Fighters were carbon copies of old WWII dogfight footage
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Down to the ill-fated Y-wing first bombing run on the DS1 trench. Battle of Midway style. Yes, there are also parallels to the bouncing bomb Lancaster Rhine run but in that one of the BOMBERS got off the money shot not some hotshot redneck FIGHTER pilot from the hick part of the galaxy.
I liked the prank call, though I thought the movie dwelt on it a little too long and would have benefited for the Imperial shutting it down a little quicker and getting to the action. Everyone's disdain for Hux's over inflated sense of self importance is a pet love of mine alongside Kylo's desperate failings at being a bad guy, but its also a scene where I think the movie would have benefited from smoother pacing.
insaniak wrote: Honestly, I find it odd that people would think it didn't fit the setting. What it reminded me of the most was the pilot banter that runs through the old X-wing novels. Which isn't too surprising, since Poe was quite clearly meant to be a replacement for Wedge Antilles' character, and that 'prank call' was right up the EU Wedge's alley.
I also imagine that's what it was like to be on the tail end of Han trying to talk his way out of the detention block, just with a fair bit more cheek.
Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run..
I never said that exact situation happened. I said it reminded me of the X-wing novels' dialogue. One of the Rogue or Wraith pilots carrying on that sort of conversation with an enemy commander would have fit in to those books just fine, though.
Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run..
I never said that exact situation happened. I said it reminded me of the X-wing novels' dialogue. One of the Rogue or Wraith pilots carrying on that sort of conversation with an enemy commander would have fit in to those books just fine, though.
Wasn't necessarily quoting you, just making gross comparisons between the two.
Perhaps after Jar Jar, people are touchy about humorous scenes in Star Wars.
No, just want them to actually be funny.
It didn't help that the entire setup was battering down the fourth wall and suspension of disbelief, right on top of the lampshading that they didn't have a fighter screen because that was the only way to have the plot happen.
AegisGrimm wrote: It was too much like something Tony Stark would do in the middle of a villain's monologue.
Nowhere in my memory of the Rogue Squadron books did Wedge prank call the bridge of the Lusankya to tell a knock, knock joke during an attack run.
Imagine Han prank calling General Tarkin. Too much Marvel attitude in my Star Wars (even though I love it in Marvel Movies).
Had to admit I was a bit worried that was where they were taking Star Wars during that scene. But it was met afterwards by Leia giving Poe a sharp slap round the chops for getting most of his strike team killed. She was there to point out that he should start acting like a leader, and thus take his actions seriously. All he cared about was humilating Hux and destroying the Dreadnought, Leia just needed enough time to get her fleet to safety - showing off and losing an entire flight of bombers in the process was unacceptable.
Kanluwen wrote: I feel like the mere existence of Lieutenant Kettch and Dinner Squadron entirely invalidates AegisGrimm's point.
Indeed, the one and only run of Dinner Squadron does kind of disprove it. I still disliked Poe's call though, fair enough that he would make it but the FO response should have been to open fire (and launch TIEs) not sit there like morons.
I understand that the First Order are being laid out as an analogue to modern young and angsty Neo-Nazis, but I agree, that doesn't mean they have to be as dumb and comical as moustached villains from kids cartoons. Right from the get go they have been the young moronic goons of Snoke, like in Zombie fiction where you see a teacher surrounded by their former schoolchildren as a cult of followers.
They are like Empire-themed battle droids. I hope Rise of Skywalker shows them as something scarier and deadlier.
The First Order are like "WE MUST WIPE THE FLITHY REPUBLIC FROM THE FACE OF THE GALAXY! HOW DARE THEY OFFER TEA AND BISCUITS WHEN WE COME TO VISIT!!!! DAMN THEMMM!!!"
I get the Federation - they are greedy - and I get the Empire as they just want the galaxy for themselves...but seriously, what is the First order's angle here?
Are they like...the evil teenager's regime from Solar Babies or something? Okay, Kylo has a good reason for going ape gak(I would if I woke up in the middle of the night to the sight of my uncle holding a lightisaber in a threatening manner!) but the First Order is like "I HATE NICE PEOPLE! STOP SMILING AT MEEEEE!!!".
HOLY CRAP!
Just interrupting this as I'm now watching an epsisode of Highlander("Family Tree") and a chap has just walked out of a Games Workshop! OMG!
...anyway, sorry. Yeah, I mean...why is the FIrst Order so nasty anyway? Even if Snoke said "Leia had my last rolo" it would be something!
The resurgent Fascist movement known as the First Order is comprised of a group of cinephiles who are just so angry about New Republic movies including allegorical subtext that they decided to band together and burn it all down. Or Disney Star Wars is so lazy and uncreative that they just repackaged the empire with some Fellow Kids marketing to attempt relevance. One of those.
They are like Empire-themed battle droids. I hope Rise of Skywalker shows them as something scarier and deadlier.
I have a feeling they're just going to get replaced by the red ones, who have their own pile of infinite resources and act as an 'entirely different' threat to the galaxy.
Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
Grimskul wrote: Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
100% agree. I like Last Jedi and think its one of the better SW movies, but you are right; in Force Awakens Kylo and Hux are serious rivals fighting over the favour of their master, but from the beginning of Last Jedi Hux is treated as a comedy punch-bag.
Reason I prefer Last Jedi over Force Awakens is because it at least gives us a reason why Kylo Ren has gone looney-tunes(good or bad, its something to go on), whereas the previous film has no motive for any of the bad guys whatsoever. The bit on Canto Bight also gives some hint as to the state of the galaxy and why the First Order and Republic are at each others throats - someone is profiteering from the misery of the struggle, possibly engineering the whole conflict. In Force Awakens they blew up planets we've never heard of nor are connected to any of the main characters - if it had been Coruscant we might have actually cared! At least in A New Hope we knew that Alderaan is Princess Leia's home planet and she was forced to watch the wicked deed done, thus feeling angry at the Empire and sorry for the poor woman.
Rose gets crapped on but at least we know more about her than any of the other characters; we see her sister die in battle, she is willing to make sacrifices(her half of the twin pendant she shares with her dead sister), she believes in not running away from problems and to see the world for what it is. We know she grew up on a world crushed by the First Order and she points out that its because others turned a blind eye. With the exception of Finn she has more meat to her character than the main characters themselves!
Still, it is what it is. Rise of Skywalker has a lot to cover and hopefully it will connect most of the dots.
Grimskul wrote: Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
I quite enjoyed the turn Rebels took with the introduction of Thrawn. The First Order could do with a character like that, although I think it may be a little late for that now.
To me it's also a big problem that the First Order is presented as non-functional when Hux is distracted. There is zero autonomy for ship commanders to send out their own fighter screen unless Hux first orders it. No one sees the hyperspace ram coming because apparently when Hux dismisses the cruiser as a distraction, any and all sensor officers take the rest of the day off?
Ships built around and strictly in need of their thousands-strong crews don't have anyone at their stations that can do their actual job without explicit command from Hux first. This strict focus on a single character's actions is just so very unbelievable.
SamusDrake wrote: The bit on Canto Bight also gives some hint as to the state of the galaxy and why the First Order and Republic are at each others throats - someone is profiteering from the misery of the struggle, possibly engineering the whole conflict.
Palpi's retirement plan? Leaving politics for an exciting stint in the private sector, doing what he does best? Sure sounds like it to me!
SamusDrake wrote: Still, it is what it is. Rise of Skywalker has a lot to cover and hopefully it will connect most of the dots.
I certainly hope it adds enough to make some things appear better in hindsight. The potential is there.
Grimskul wrote: Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.
Grimskul wrote: Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.
Don't get me wrong, the issue isn't only on the First Order's side. I totally agree that the protagonist cast has its own side of issues for furthering this lack of tension in the new trilogy. I think you pointed out a good point with Rey basically hard-carrying the group atm, since she is the one inexplicably capable with the force with little effort on her part. Finn could have been so much more interesting in seeing his story arc being less about him being thirsty for Rey and being more about him breaking out of his First Order indoctrination and effectively being a child soldier. It would have been great to see his attachment to Rey and Poe come from how they were some of the first to act human towards him and him coming to terms with having an identity outside of the First Order. It would also make Phasma actually have a role in becoming his personal nemesis from her seeing him as a mark of failure on her part of having one of her troops go rogue and a vendetta on her part to eliminate him from setting an example for others in the First Order to defect, while Finn sees her as the embodiment of what he is trying to escape. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the emphasis on trying to finagle nostalgia by shoehorning previously existing characters bogs down any development from the new ones, as they get overshadowed by the OG crew, so the passing of the torch never succeeds when they attempt to make it happen in the movie.
Grimskul wrote: Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.
Don't get me wrong, the issue isn't only on the First Order's side. I totally agree that the protagonist cast has its own side of issues for furthering this lack of tension in the new trilogy. I think you pointed out a good point with Rey basically hard-carrying the group atm, since she is the one inexplicably capable with the force with little effort on her part. Finn could have been so much more interesting in seeing his story arc being less about him being thirsty for Rey and being more about him breaking out of his First Order indoctrination and effectively being a child soldier. It would have been great to see his attachment to Rey and Poe come from how they were some of the first to act human towards him and him coming to terms with having an identity outside of the First Order. It would also make Phasma actually have a role in becoming his personal nemesis from her seeing him as a mark of failure on her part of having one of her troops go rogue and a vendetta on her part to eliminate him from setting an example for others in the First Order to defect, while Finn sees her as the embodiment of what he is trying to escape. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the emphasis on trying to finagle nostalgia by shoehorning previously existing characters bogs down any development from the new ones, as they get overshadowed by the OG crew, so the passing of the torch never succeeds when they attempt to make it happen in the movie.
While I agree with most of what you said I don’t think the issue is shoehorning existing characters into the movies that is the issue, it’s the shoehorning of the new characters into the star wars story well more crow barring really. In there desperation for that lovely lovely merchandising rights for the new characters they were desperate to show as few existing characters as possible, this basically hobbled any chance at a coherent story with the new characters being introduced more naturally and at a pace that would allow some character and growth. Hence by the end of the movie Poe is leading the Resistance, Ray is a Jedi Master and Finn is the new Jar Jar.
Basically all the new “character’s” and I use the term very loosely in both movies are cardboard cut out archetypes with little to no weight or prospect of growth or sense of history. It’s this last one that stops people who will say the original trilogy characters were the same from being completely correct but it is true upto a point, however take Han for example he is introduced with only a small amount of backstory showing he owes the wrong people money and has a shady past he continues to be motivated by profit and material gain for the rest of the movie until the final act where he returns to save his friend. It is only the small amount of history we are given that emphasises the characters growth and colours his story over the 3 movies and makes him feel like a character rather than a plot device with legs.
With the new characters none of them feel like finished well rounded people they all seem created to further parts of the story but without any connection to the universe or larger story intended, Han has more character growth in one movie than can be found for all the characters over both movies so far. They should have told a bit more of the new republic's and first orders history first(yes this would require them to actually know this stuff) and then introduced Poe with a bit more detail why he left the NR to join the resistance etc and then over the rest of the movie introduce Ray and Finn the film was fething long enough they could have done it and we could have lost some dead weight too.
Grimskul wrote: Personally, my beef with the knock-knock joke was how they just double down on Hux falling for it and acting like a buffoon. I get the angle for the First Order being pretenders trying to emulate the Empire, but that ties in to the whole issue of the new trilogy not having any actual tension regarding the main antagonists. From what we've seen, Kylo is a Darth Vader wannabe that is nowhere near the Dark Lord's power, Snoke just gets smoked after his long awaited intro and Phasma is just there to get dunked on. You need to at least have one competent antagonist to convey some sense of threat from the villains, as so far it feels extremely unearned for the First Order to have made such big gains against the Resistance and the New Republic. Having Hux be a foil to Kylo by being no-nonsense and actually hyper-competent ala Tarkin would have been great in establishing how the New Order is a threat in taking advantage of the complacency of the New Republic by deflecting Poe's desperate attempt to distract him and have their suicide run fail miserably because of it. That would have established Poe's recklessness and why Admiral Purplehair would shut him down as a commander and set up the internal tension within the Resistance way more fluidly.
Your right but part of the issue is that the First Order effectively have to be useless because the New Republic/Resistance are even worse they are so incompetent that the empire would have crushed them in one movie. The only person on the good guys side that shows any ability is the hyper competent Ray, Poe is basicly a cheap knock off of Han and has all the problems that entails and in no way would be commanding anything. The less said about poor Jar Jar Finn the better he could have been so good but gets stuck as Ray's comic relief. In fact bb8 seems to have inadvertently been shown as the most competent member of the team but I guess that's following in R2's footsteps.
Don't get me wrong, the issue isn't only on the First Order's side. I totally agree that the protagonist cast has its own side of issues for furthering this lack of tension in the new trilogy. I think you pointed out a good point with Rey basically hard-carrying the group atm, since she is the one inexplicably capable with the force with little effort on her part. Finn could have been so much more interesting in seeing his story arc being less about him being thirsty for Rey and being more about him breaking out of his First Order indoctrination and effectively being a child soldier. It would have been great to see his attachment to Rey and Poe come from how they were some of the first to act human towards him and him coming to terms with having an identity outside of the First Order. It would also make Phasma actually have a role in becoming his personal nemesis from her seeing him as a mark of failure on her part of having one of her troops go rogue and a vendetta on her part to eliminate him from setting an example for others in the First Order to defect, while Finn sees her as the embodiment of what he is trying to escape. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the emphasis on trying to finagle nostalgia by shoehorning previously existing characters bogs down any development from the new ones, as they get overshadowed by the OG crew, so the passing of the torch never succeeds when they attempt to make it happen in the movie.
While I agree with most of what you said I don’t think the issue is shoehorning existing characters into the movies that is the issue, it’s the shoehorning of the new characters into the star wars story well more crow barring really. In there desperation for that lovely lovely merchandising rights for the new characters they were desperate to show as few existing characters as possible, this basically hobbled any chance at a coherent story with the new characters being introduced more naturally and at a pace that would allow some character and growth. Hence by the end of the movie Poe is leading the Resistance, Ray is a Jedi Master and Finn is the new Jar Jar.
Basically all the new “character’s” and I use the term very loosely in both movies are cardboard cut out archetypes with little to no weight or prospect of growth or sense of history. It’s this last one that stops people who will say the original trilogy characters were the same from being completely correct but it is true upto a point, however take Han for example he is introduced with only a small amount of backstory showing he owes the wrong people money and has a shady past he continues to be motivated by profit and material gain for the rest of the movie until the final act where he returns to save his friend. It is only the small amount of history we are given that emphasises the characters growth and colours his story over the 3 movies and makes him feel like a character rather than a plot device with legs.
With the new characters none of them feel like finished well rounded people they all seem created to further parts of the story but without any connection to the universe or larger story intended, Han has more character growth in one movie than can be found for all the characters over both movies so far. They should have told a bit more of the new republic's and first orders history first(yes this would require them to actually know this stuff) and then introduced Poe with a bit more detail why he left the NR to join the resistance etc and then over the rest of the movie introduce Ray and Finn the film was fething long enough they could have done it and we could have lost some dead weight too.
Agree 100%, the extra context of the new galactic order of the NR and how the current characters fit in it would have been great to have rather than relying on vague pre-movie script. As bad as the prequels are in their own way, you can't deny they did a hell of a better job worldbuilding than the current one.
So, after the 5th straight youtube advertisement for Jedi's Creed: Fallen Arkham the video game, it occurred to me how... nonstop... Star Wars nonsense is going to be for the next two to three months.
The Mandolorian is going to kick things off in a couple days, roll right into the game coverage starting Thursday and then steamroll right o the next film.
And since the shopping season is kicking off early this year, good luck to any parents, you'll never see the end of the toys. And the rest of us will have to deal with the avalanche of displays and endcaps everytime we're in a big box store, Target or Walmart.
Its going to be freaking non-stop until at least the new year.
*giggles*
I just read some random news story suggesting a rumor that Disney CEO Bob Iger had George Lucas come in to do some reworking of things to "save" the movie.
Tannhauser42 wrote: *giggles* I just read some random news story suggesting a rumor that Disney CEO Bob Iger had George Lucas come in to do some reworking of things to "save" the movie.
The original source of that newest rumor (spoilered below with the rumor) is a youtuber of questionable veracity. He's entertaining for sure and definitely an outllandish character but his track record with secret sources feeding him what he wants to happen (and that is probably the most generous interpretation) is spotty at best. His "sources" told him for months that Star Trek Discovery wasn't getting a third season and then STD was renewed. I thought about posting the info here in the thread earlier this weekend but decided against it. While multiple reshoots could explain the wide range of rumors reporting a movie that is still in flux over the past month, it also could mean that people are just posting random guesses to see what sticks.
Spoiler:
According to Doomcock/OverlordDVD, supposedly a secret new previously unknown skywalker is going to come out of the woodwork instead of the previous rumor that Rey will just adopt the Skywalker name and move to Tatooine). That's supposedly the new rumor and addition that Lucas reportedly made after poor testscreenings of the JJ version.
Tannhauser42 wrote: *giggles*
I just read some random news story suggesting a rumor that Disney CEO Bob Iger had George Lucas come in to do some reworking of things to "save" the movie.
The original source of that newest rumor (spoilered below with the rumor) is a youtuber of questionable veracity. He's entertaining for sure and definitely an outllandish character but his track record with secret sources feeding him what he wants to happen (and that is probably the most generous interpretation) is spotty at best. His "sources" told him for months that Star Trek Discovery wasn't getting a third season and then STD was renewed. I thought about posting the info here in the thread earlier this weekend but decided against it. While multiple reshoots could explain the wide range of rumors reporting a movie that is still in flux over the past month, it also could mean that people are just posting random guesses to see what sticks.
Spoiler:
According to Doomcock/OverlordDVD, supposedly a secret new previously unknown skywalker is going to come out of the woodwork instead of the previous rumor that Rey will just adopt the Skywalker name and move to Tatooine). That's supposedly the new rumor and addition that Lucas reportedly made after poor testscreenings of the JJ version.
In that guy's defense, he does flat out say that these things are a rumor, and to take them with some degree of skepticism. It's not like the dude is perpetuating it as a gospel truth.
SeanDrake wrote: As much as I like the original movies if Lucas is your secret weapon to save your movies from JJ and the Halfwit your probably all ready fethed.
Not necessarily. Lucas makes good Star Wars when he has a competent director. You only get the Prequels when he's left unchecked.
In that guy's defense, he does flat out say that these things are a rumor, and to take them with some degree of skepticism. It's not like the dude is perpetuating it as a gospel truth.
Most definitely he stresses it now. It wasn't stressed so much until he got some egg on his mask after the predicting doom and gloom for STD for months and then having it renewed anyways. Either way, classifying it as a rumor isn't a get out of jail free card regardless. Don't get me wrong as I actually agree with many (not all but many) of his points regarding pop culture nowadays but I take super double secret anonymous source rumor reporting as a 50/50 mix of wishful thinking and mean girl gossip now instead of actually from a "reliable source" until proven otherwise. YMMV and you're free to attribute as much or as little accuracy to the rumors as you wish. At this point, the cynic community on youtube has reported so many different conflicting rumors over the past three months that one of them is bound to be true in some small part simply by the infinite monkey theorem.
Got my midnight showing booked, in the posh seats and 3D at that.
Opinions will vary, but I’m hyped. And not long at all to go.
Don't have our tickets yet (usually don't have any issues getting opening tickets in my area), but otherwise my boys and I are ready:
Spoiler:
With Disney+ and this being the "final" Skywalker movie, it seems likely that this may be the last big SW theater event for quite some time, so we intend to make a showing
The latest teaser with Daisy Ridley has already retroactively made the ST better.
I now am quite certain no one was trying to tell me Rey was dealing with dark bouts of rage whenever she had action scenes. That's just the face she makes when doing something action-y.
Scrabb wrote: The latest teaser with Daisy Ridley has already retroactively made the ST better.
I now am quite certain no one was trying to tell me Rey was dealing with dark bouts of rage whenever she had action scenes. That's just the face she makes when doing something action-y.
Or algebra.
You should see the face she makes reading Finnegan's Wake.
Watched the latest trailer/TV spot last night and it was an improvement over the previous ones IMO. I have one main issue with it but overall it was an enjoyable 30 second watch and the humor was enjoyable (and the jet pack troopers were cool). My only "complaint" would be that the bikes were wheeled. In a universe where even moisture farmers on backwater planets like tatooine have access to hover vehicles and only the vermin of the galaxy like Jawas use ground based movement, it felt jarring to see the First Order that can afford to "hold my beer" the old Empire's Death Star moons with a whole planet laser not have skimmers as well. It's a nitpick admittedly but it broke my immersion somewhat. I've seen some complaints about the jetpacks as well but I've have no issues with that given Fett's canon and various EU clone/Storm trooper jet packs for 25+ years. Regardless, it was an improvement over space horsies charging across a Star Destroyers and the "remember all this nostalgia!? Hey, I know we said let the past die and kill it but we were totes kidding!" trailers.
warboss wrote: Hey, I know we said let the past die and kill it but we were totes kidding!" trailers.
Seriously, can we please stop parroting this line as if it was ever a Disney corporate strategy? Kylo Ren is a character in a movie, not the head of Lucasfilm.
Meanwhile, I suspect that the bikes are simply the result of someone coming up with a cool looking design. Although I'm sure an in - universe explanation as to why they were a better option than speeder bikes in that situation will be along sooner or later.
warboss wrote: Hey, I know we said let the past die and kill it but we were totes kidding!" trailers.
Seriously, can we please stop parroting this line as if it was ever a Disney corporate strategy? Kylo Ren is a character in a movie, not the head of Lucasfilm.
If the shoe fits...
Meanwhile, I suspect that the bikes are simply the result of someone coming up with a cool looking design. Although I'm sure an in - universe explanation as to why they were a better option than speeder bikes in that situation will be along sooner or later.
Sure, they're a cool design and I'd be fine with seeing them in the next Batman movie or a dystopian cyberpunk film. I'm sure there CAN be a reason why they're used by the major power in the universe with seemingly unlimited resources instead of the long standing history of hover/anti-grav vehicles but the same can be said for introducing Ewoks with shaped designs on their bellies that shoot out force powers. For me, they're an unnecessary problem in search of a solution. It's be a different story if the rebellion/resistance was instead using them seeing as how they got reduced to a dozen people on one (or two?) ships since they'd be scrounging for resources at that point and couldn't afford to be picky.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: With one track! I hope they only have to chase the characters from Prometheus.
I'll have to rewatch it then. I thought it was one giant wheel like the most recent batcycle but I'll admit I didn't freeze frame it to inspect it. Regardless, I'd have preferred a more typical hover (or anti-grav?) vehicle.
warboss wrote: . I'm sure there CAN be a reason why they're used by the major power in the universe with seemingly unlimited resources instead of the long standing history of hover/anti-grav vehicles..
And that reason can simply be that they use a variety of different equipment to suit the specific environment.
Maybe that planet has dust that messes up speeder engines, making tracked vehicles more practical. Maybe speeders aren't stable enough for the jetpack launch device. Maybe the local garrison commander just really likes that particular bike, or gets kickbacks from the manufacturer.
For all their use of anti grav, the empire also used walkers and tracked vehicles in the past, so this is hardly particularly revolutionary.
Seriously, details like this are only immersion breaking if you choose to look at them as something wrong rather than as something that just hasn't been explained.
There is a toy called the treadspeeder for sale now in all fine establishments. But yeah, treadspeeder. Tread. Speeder. In a universe where everything has repulsorlifts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On closer inspection, the back half floats in the air.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To relate that pick to the hobby, I propose gluing two of them back to back to make a Kawasaki Taurox, and two Kawasaki Tauroxes (Tauroxen?) on each side of a paw patrol vehicle to make a Taurox Deluxe.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: There is a toy called the treadspeeder for sale now in all fine establishments. But yeah, treadspeeder. Tread. Speeder. In a universe where everything has repulsorlifts.
Part of what makes the Star Wars universe interesting (for me, at least) is the very wide variety of different technologies employed by the various factions for different situations.From the looks of it, the treadspeeder is basically just a speeder bike that uses a tread for motive force instead of a jet engine. And within the scope of the weird and wacky designs we've seen from Star Wars from its inception, that seems fine to me.
What is that TIE tread vehicle from? I can’t stop laughing.
I know this risks getting into a debate, but I find the AT-AT to have a much slighter ridiculous factor than the treadspeeder or TIE Tread. Like, orders of magnitude less. There’s a difference between “rule of cool” and “totally stupid” for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still wondering how that treadspeeder turns. Does the rider lean hard on the absolutely nothing under him to dig it harder into the ground on one side?
It's a TIE Crawler. Introduced, I think, originally in some very old and now 'Legends' status comics, but still canon, apparently.
Still wondering how that treadspeeder turns. Does the rider lean hard on the absolutely nothing under him to dig it harder into the ground on one side?
Turn? That betrays a disturbing lack of focus on the task at hand. We're going that way, trooper!
Still wondering how that treadspeeder turns. Does the rider lean hard on the absolutely nothing under him to dig it harder into the ground on one side?
Well..you saved me a rewatch! I'd say the name is pretty definitive, lol. As for turning, I suppose the rocket booster on back could be used to turn it if vectored with or without a jump. There looks to be a potential joint/point of articulation under the hood (or bonnet for you commonwealthers!) Between the tread and the rest could assist with that.
It's happening Friday! Although, I'll be going on Saturday morning (always less crowded) So far I've been doing well to avoid Spoilers (which I normally actively seek out, but this time I want to enjoy the surprise)
Being in the UK, I get to see it 00:01 Thursday morning.
I’m working from home after, so no need to then get up at Idiot O’Clock to commute.
Very, very much looking forward to this. Wee bit cautious over red eyed 3PO based on the toy, where he’s got Chewie’s bandolier and Bowcaster. But we know they’ve fibbed via toys before (such as no sign of Lightsaber wielding Rey in the initial release for TFA).
And I will of course refuse to post any kind of spoiler, tagged or not, until it’s on proper worldwide general release.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I just hope future conversation will be more constructive than the last round.
Yes, TLJ was divisive. I just hope I’m not doomed to read the same comments time and time again.
If it sucks, it sucks. I’m open to that.
I'm still reserving my opinion on TLJ. There were some....bold... decisions that I did not like, but I could see some of them having decent pay-offs in RoS. If they do, they my opinion of TLJ will be overall positive.
However, if most of issues are ignored, well I guess TLJ is my new Attack of the Clones; just one you have to get through to "properly" marathon SW.
I think even just going by the trailers it looks better than the trailers did for TLJ. My only gripe is that the Star Destroyer fleet is yet another "awesomeness escalation" that has been a part of each of the sequel movies - although at least this one harkens back to the Katana Fleet as some of the cooler parts of the EU, and were it in isolation it is much more palatable than Death Planets and Super Super Star Destroyers and apocalyptic Hyperspace maneuvers that have been previously undiscovered in 4,000(ish) years of space travel.
Just from the trailers I was lukewarm about even watching TLJ in theatres (and actually never did), but I am much more exited about Rise of Skywalker and what the plot hopefully materializes as (i.e. something cool and Star Wars-y).
H.B.M.C. wrote: So many of the first reactions from the premiere are "If you loved The Last Jedi, you're not going to like this!".
Makes me excited to see it.
(NB: No spoilers at that link - they're just the twitter reactions)
I'd argue that the people who liked TLJ did so because they walked into the theater without a long list of expectations or burning need for validation. So I expect them to roll with whatever RoS brings. *shrug*
Currently off work due to head weasels, so either is an option.
I ending up getting tickets for Friday night, so my boys and I will watch RotJ tonight (watched Empire last night), TFA tomorrow, TLJ on Thursday & RoS Friday premium We watched 1-3 a few weeks ago and I've seen ANH at least 50 times at this point in my life, so I'm skipping it for now.
So if you are just planning on watching TFA & TLJ, I'd watch TFA tonight & TLJ tomorrow.
As much as I know people will hate this opinion, I think RoS needs to have a great deal of "fan service" for lack of a better term. If it's the conclusion of all 9 saga films, there's gonna be tons of call backs to both the Orig Trig and *gasp* the Prequels.
To be a satisfying conclusion, this HAS to happen. And I know there's going to be some heavy eye-rolling because of it, so if you are one of those that wants SW to go in new directions and to stop relying on nostalgia, I think there's a good chance of disappointment.
If done right, however, this could be really well done and tie all the movies together. At least that is my hope.
I have no confidence that I will love it. I've been unhappy with the sequel trilogy because it built its foundation on the destruction of the happy endings at the end of RotJ.
The flipside is that I love The Mandalorian because it lovingly harkens back to the originals while going its own direction.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Mayhap I’ll go see it twice on release day, as I did with Infinity War and End Game. Once for the sheer spectacle, twice to better unpack.
I know I'm likely to see it twice. If for no other reason that it releases at the start of a 5-day weekend for me.
But I tend to see these big spectacle movies twice in theaters regardless, just never on the same day.
The second viewing is always after at least a day or more reflection from the first.
gorgon wrote: I'd argue that the people who liked TLJ did so because they walked into the theater without a long list of expectations or burning need for validation.
So people who disliked TLJ did so because they were expecting validation?
gorgon wrote: I'd argue that the people who liked TLJ did so because they walked into the theater without a long list of expectations or burning need for validation.
So people who disliked TLJ did so because they were expecting validation?
Nice try...
I disliked it because it was the awesome nexus of boring and stupid.
gorgon wrote: I'd argue that the people who liked TLJ did so because they walked into the theater without a long list of expectations or burning need for validation.
So people who disliked TLJ did so because they were expecting validation?
Galef wrote: As much as I know people will hate this opinion, I think RoS needs to have a great deal of "fan service" for lack of a better term. If it's the conclusion of all 9 saga films, there's gonna be tons of call backs to both the Orig Trig and *gasp* the Prequels.
To be a satisfying conclusion, this HAS to happen. And I know there's going to be some heavy eye-rolling because of it, so if you are one of those that wants SW to go in new directions and to stop relying on nostalgia, I think there's a good chance of disappointment.
-
I just want it to tell a decent and entertaining story. It doesn't need 'new directions,' 'nostalgia breaks' or fan service to do that.
It needs to be somewhat inline with the rest of the films (ultimate power = bad, faith in yours friends=good, and lets buckle some swashes and have a nice space battle along the way, alright?), but that isn't the same thing as fan service. What it needs to do is provide some reason to even vaguely care about the characters introduced two movies ago, and move a plot along at a decent pace while they make decisions that test them and get resolved by the end of the film.
I have doubts they'll manage to pull that off, simply because the writer/directors have been doodling in the margins of a sketchbook rather than learning how to tell stories, but at least it'll be done.
gorgon wrote: I'd argue that the people who liked TLJ did so because they walked into the theater without a long list of expectations or burning need for validation.
So people who disliked TLJ did so because they were expecting validation?
Nice try...
For a lot of people....
Spoiler:
If Luke had multiple action scenes doing kewl Jedi stuff with his lightsaber (for real-real, not for play-play), there probably would have been 50% fewer gripes about the film. I mean, complaints about the dialogue? LOL. Go watch a prequel trilogy film if you want to see a movie with a genuinely bad script. Some of those lines are undeliverable, and it's no wonder that otherwise excellent actors somehow looked bad in those movies.
Other people may not have liked TLJ for other reasons. People are 100% allowed not to like things. But there's absolutely a block of superfans that walked in expecting and demanding what Luke's storyline and story beats should be, and reacted when Johnson trolled them over it.
Anyway -- and back to my original point -- I don't think there's really a faction of TLJ fans pounding their fists on the table for MOAR EXPECTATION SUBVERSION in RoS. Most of them aren't making many demands on SW films, which is why they rolled with TLJ in the first place.
I just want it to tell a decent and entertaining story. It doesn't need 'new directions,' 'nostalgia breaks' or fan service to do that.
It needs to be somewhat inline with the rest of the films (ultimate power = bad, faith in yours friends=good, and lets buckle some swashes and have a nice space battle along the way, alright?), but that isn't the same thing as fan service. What it needs to do is provide some reason to even vaguely care about the characters introduced two movies ago, and move a plot along at a decent pace while they make decisions that test them and get resolved by the end of the film.
I have doubts they'll manage to pull that off, simply because the writer/directors have been doodling in the margins of a sketchbook rather than learning how to tell stories, but at least it'll be done.
This.
Force Awakens gave us nothing to go on save for Disney wanting to exploit the nostalgia for A New Hope and wanting nothing to do with the prequel era. Last Jedi did a bit better by at least explaining why Ben is a psycho and Luke had gone missing, while Rose is a new character who actually has a character to speak of. But two films in and we still don't know much about the three main heros; Poe, Finn and Rey. Snoke was nobody and nor do we have any idea why the First Order exists at all. If there was any story to the sequels then Rise of Skywalker needs to haul ass.
Rogue One and Solo are better movies because LucasFilm has had those stories roughed out for years before the Disney aquisition. In fact, both films have their roots in A.C.Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy which covers both the Death Star plan heist, and Han Solo's youth, and that was written in the late 90s. Even with the retcon of the EU, those were the real LucasFilm movies.
Disney just need to leave LucasFilm to do its thing and they will come through for them, and have done so with Rebels and The Mandalorian.
LunarSol wrote: I quite like TLJ, though I'd prefer it be about half an hour shorter so I could watch it more often.
That's pretty easy to do. Fast forward through all the Canto Bright stuff. It's about 1/2hr worth of footage, and removing it makes zero difference to the outcome of the film.
I'm interested in RoS, but I'm dreading the reactionary fandom fights from all sides I'll have to endure for months as I get back into playing X-Wing after the new year. I don't mind anyone's opinion, I just have a low bar to people crapping on others for not sharing their view.
I knew players so mad about 2nd Ed and TLJ they sold off their Fantasy Flight collections and/or quit the game. To each their own, but they had to keep pointing out that they were making a statement and why. I also picked up a TLJ shirt for like $1 to wear at the gym, and had to deal with a lecture on why TLJ sucked from a random store clerk half my age. Then, another friend thought it was brilliant because he likes Rian Johnson and went on a rampage versus critics of TLJ. I'm not a big 'fandom' or sacred cow person, so I found all of it tiresome. I just pick and choose what parts I like in media and discard the rest, like the chocolates in a Whitman's Sampler. TLJ had a lot of interesting ideas, but executed most of them poorly (Fleet Cat & Mouse, Poe making a bad call, Force connections for Rey & Kylo, Luke being terrified of something and not being as successful as we hoped), but I wanted to find some gold in there. The only part I actively disliked completely was the Canto scenes. Absolute waste.
TFA was pretty good. I questioned some of the choices but on the whole I liked it..
Kylo was probably my favorite character of TFA and TLJ, but it felt like they undid any character growth he had by the end of TLJ. Compared to Vader, I loved the idea of an impulsive, reckless, emotional disaster of a sith that was committing evil acts because he wanted to get closer to an ideal he could never live up to.
I'm HOPING there is some advancement there. I don't want redemption. But I also don't want the rumors I heard to be true.
I'll probably catch a matinee over the weekend. I expect I'll view it as alright unless it makes some terrible choices.
All the rats jumping from a sinking ship. All the shills desperately walking that tightrope between "access media" and "retaining an audience with dignity intact".
But, you know, we're just a bunch of Russian Trolls.
No, it's racist/misogynist trolls and Russian bots. Oh, and manbabies of course. All of which now apply just as correctly to every media writer that expresses any discontent with this film if they previously ignorantly labelled all TLJ discontent in the fan community with the same brush. Somehow I don't think they'll apply the same standards though.
When you make a $4 billion purchase and plan to recoup your costs by just winging it... then maybe you you should have a plan...
Thinking about it, this scene from A New Hope feels prescient.
Start at 4:24
Luke [JJ Abrams]: Anyone have a way out? Han [Rian Johnson]: (Shooting at Stormtroopers) I can't hold them off forever. Now what? Leia [Kathleen Kenedy]: This is some rescue. When you came here didn't you have a plan for getting out? Han [Rian Johnson]: He's the brains sweetheart. Leia shoots a hole in the wall. Han [Rian Johnson]: What the hell are you doing? Leia [Kathleen Kenedy]: Somebody has to save our skins. Into the garbage, flyboy. Han [Rian Johnson]: (to Chewbaca) Get in there! Chewbacca (Mark Hamill): (Cries in protest) Han [Rian Johnson]: Get in there you big furry oaf! I don't care what you smell. (kicks Chewbacca into trash chute)
Well about 4.5 hours I get to see how much copy&paste from 4-6 this one is. Hopefully at least little bit less than last one that I had already seen like 2 decades ago. Expectations around the absolute zero
LunarSol wrote: I quite like TLJ, though I'd prefer it be about half an hour shorter so I could watch it more often.
That's pretty easy to do. Fast forward through all the Canto Bright stuff. It's about 1/2hr worth of footage, and removing it makes zero difference to the outcome of the film.
Rewatching it I even liked this more than I thought I would. At the very least, the parts I liked and didn't like flopped around as I've watched it again. Things like the kangaroo escape breaks up the pacing nicely. What really drags it down are the two bits of soapboxing that feel straight out of the prequels. Finn's confrontation with Phasma is also a pretty baffling cut I'd really like to see restored. Then again, I also keep hoping for yup-nub back, so I've let a lot of this stuff go.
Having decided awhile ago "feth it" on this movie, I kind of reached the conclusion that there's really no way for it to win. Critically at least (it's still probably going to make lots of money).
TFA is like a 2 hour intro scene and everyone forgot the intro is supposed to lead to the actual movie.
TLJ is like a 2 hour intermission about the bad guys getting an upper hand and everyone forgot the intermission is supposed to be the middle of the film not the whole film.
On both sides of those films there's a lot of "where's the story tho" and that basically leaves RoS to pick up all the narrative weight of the trilogy and it's just too late in the game for that. The trailers go ahead and look more like "an epic finale and everyone forgot it's supposed to be the end of the film not the whole film."
You'd think that set up might work in a trilogy but to me I think it leaves the entire endeavor lopsided and feeling empty, to say nothing of TLJ's rotten characterizations and empty "big swing" moments.
What I'm getting from so many of these reviews is "There's so much movie here, more than a single movie's worth!".
It's almost as if there was movie that came out that destroyed every plot point set up in the first one and they've had to scramble to cobble together a plot that makes sense of it all.
If only TLJ hadn't taken place MINUTES after TFA, then maybe there would have been time to spread things out...
Nothing like picking up after almost no time elapses and throwing away everything that came before and fundamentally changing characters along the way.
So far reviews are mixed. However the ones that aren't liking it are generally moaning that it appears to be an Endgame type with lots of tropes and bits for fans.
Frazzled wrote: So far reviews are mixed. However the ones that aren't liking it are generally moaning that it appears to be an Endgame type with lots of tropes and bits for fans.
Translation: it might actually be decent.
Fingers crossed. I don't think my inner child's heart can take 2 "poorly received" SW in a row.
Something interesting that I JUST realized is that the "last" SW movie always starts with "R" In 1983 the "final" SW movie was Return of the Jedi In 2005 the "final" SW movie was Revenge of the Sith In 2019 the "final" Saga movie is Rise of Skywalker
I wonder is the next "final" SW movie in 15-20 years will keep the tradition
Frazzled wrote: So far reviews are mixed. However the ones that aren't liking it are generally moaning that it appears to be an Endgame type with lots of tropes and bits for fans.
Translation: it might actually be decent.
Fingers crossed. I don't think my inner child's heart can take 2 "poorly received" SW in a row.
Something interesting that I JUST realized is that the "last" SW movie always starts with "R"
In 1983 the "final" SW movie was Return of the Jedi
In 2005 the "final" SW movie was Revenge of the Sith
In 2019 the "final" Saga movie is Rise of Skywalker
I wonder is the next "final" SW movie in 15-20 years will keep the tradition
bbb wrote: If only TLJ hadn't taken place MINUTES after TFA, then maybe there would have been time to spread things out...
Nothing like picking up after almost no time elapses and throwing away everything that came before and fundamentally changing characters along the way.
Similar issue to TPM, after a fashion, in that that one spent too much time on Baby Anakin, leaving the last two with seriously heavy lifting. I honestly couldn’t say what my opinion of that trilogy would be had it not been for the superb Clone War show.
bbb wrote: If only TLJ hadn't taken place MINUTES after TFA, then maybe there would have been time to spread things out...
Nothing like picking up after almost no time elapses and throwing away everything that came before and fundamentally changing characters along the way.
Similar issue to TPM, after a fashion, in that that one spent too much time on Baby Anakin, leaving the last two with seriously heavy lifting. I honestly couldn’t say what my opinion of that trilogy would be had it not been for the superb Clone War show.
Agreed. I actually liked TPM a lot when it came out (but to be fair I was only 14). In retrospect, however, you could completely skip Ep1 and all you'd really miss is the best light saber duel in the saga. Otherwise everything you need story-wise is in Ep2 (which I also liked when it came out, but it has since become my least favorite) and continued to Ep3, and marvelously expanded upon in the Clone Wars show.
So it would appear that the idea time between movies should really be 1-4 yrs, which 20-30 years between trilogies. 10 years between movie within a trilogy is too much and 1 day between is too short.
Frazzled wrote: So far reviews are mixed. However the ones that aren't liking it are generally moaning that it appears to be an Endgame type with lots of tropes and bits for fans.
Translation: it might actually be decent.
I don't think Endgame really works without the 11 years of successful back to back movies and the good will of its fanbase though.
I've been avoiding the reviews because I don't want to spoil it for myself, but has there been any indication that they've defined fit to explain any of the larger political situation this time? I actually like what details we've gotten about the sequel era as described in the supplementary material but it feels like Lucasfilm is more confident in that aspect of the project then the actual movies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: What I'm getting from so many of these reviews is "There's so much movie here, more than a single movie's worth!".
It's almost as if there was movie that came out that destroyed every plot point set up in the first one and they've had to scramble to cobble together a plot that makes sense of it all.
Just keeping it real, Johnson was handed a big ol' gak sandwich by Abrams. It was completely different than the post-ANH environment. Or post-TPM, for that matter. Mysteries upon mysteries, new characters/entities introduced without any explanation or clear plan, characters in comas, a cliffhanger confrontation, etc. Talk about strangling the creative choices for the directors to come. Cripes, even Lucas understood that the first film of a trilogy needs to tee things up but not *dictate* the story.
Johnson and Trevorrow were hired to write and direct...to be creators, not episodic directors. The studio didn't have everything mapped out anyway! They let Abrams stroll in, set up tons of stuff that the next two would be forced to reconcile, and then stroll out. It's hardly a coincidence that Trevorrow left and Abrams replaced him. If Abrams wanted to monopolize the whole thing, he should have insisted on it in the first place.
Johnson simply attacked the tangled mess he was handed like Alexander attacked the Gordian knot. You're allowed not to like Johnson's choices, but he tried to do the franchise a favor by culling the extraneous stuff. But it seems clear that Abrams didn't take the hint, and will be returning to gak (like the Knights of Ren) that JUST DOESN'T MATTER to the larger story. Even though Johnson left the door wide open for him to ignore it and move forward. I don't hate Abrams' work, but there are times as a storyteller that he just can't seem to stop himself from overindulging. It's the least surprising thing ever that RoS may be overstuffed.
To be clear, I go into these things expecting for popcorn films. I'm sure it'll be fun and have great moments and that my kids will enjoy it. But gadzooks, what a roller coaster this trilogy has been.
Though as mentioned earlier, won’t be weighing in with comments or spoiler tags until it’s on wider release. Don’t want to spoil or prejudice discussion etc.
Might offer a rough ‘out of ten’ rating, but then, might be difficult to do that without waffling and whimbriling.
Frazzled wrote: So far reviews are mixed. However the ones that aren't liking it are generally moaning that it appears to be an Endgame type with lots of tropes and bits for fans.
Translation: it might actually be decent.
Correction, it's an Endgame type via JJ Abrams' style, meaning from what I've read(and based on his previous work) it will feel less like a genuine attempt to wind up a huge story with loads of players, and more like a checkbox that the film is working its way through like chores on the way to the sugary treat Big Damn Action scenes that JJ actually wants to be doing.
I mean, think about how many *brand new* characters this film is introducing, on top of the cameos from old favourites, on top of the fact the main cast have had pretty weak characterisation so far. Plus it has to pick up where TFA left off, while sidestepping The Last Poseur's subversions including essentially putting in an entirely new main-baddie, and tell its own story. People are comparing this to the PT, but this would be like if Attack of the Clones had been set immediately after Phantom Menace and focused almost entirely on Anakin & Padme's honeymoon, with a completely tangential Obi-wan/C3P0 buddy comedy side-plot, and then Revenge of the Sith had to handle the entire decline of the Republic and Clone Wars story in a single film.
Given the constraints of the form(ie, a finale of finales, the ending of a trilogy of trilogies, and of a length vaguely endurable in a cinema by a human not wearing adult nappies), what TLJ did to the overall arc of the Sequels, and the people involved, the best RoS could be is on the same level as TFA; a missed opportunity of tolerable memberberries. Because the best version of the film is one we'd never actually get; at the very end, Luke starts awake from a horrible dream, gathers himself, and steps outside to begin his day training young Jedi at his new academy, the end, roll credits, let us never speak of this again, how 'bout that Babby Yoda tho yeah?
At least it can't be worse than previous ones and previous ones were so much carbon copies that hard for this one to copy un'ess it starts to copy itself. Then again at this rate star war movie second halves will be copy of first half. Why write full moviewhen you can write half and copy it
Galef wrote: Agreed. I actually liked TPM a lot when it came out (but to be fair I was only 14). In retrospect, however, you could completely skip Ep1 and all you'd really miss is the best light saber duel in the saga. Otherwise everything you need story-wise is in Ep2 (which I also liked when it came out, but it has since become my least favorite) and continued to Ep3, and marvelously expanded upon in the Clone Wars show.
So it would appear that the idea time between movies should really be 1-4 yrs, which 20-30 years between trilogies. 10 years between movie within a trilogy is too much and 1 day between is too short.
-
Ep2 is really the one for me where nothing of value happens. Yes, the Clone War begins, and we... technically... get time with Anakin's character, but the structure of that film is nonsense. TPM, for all the issues with details, actually has a really strong core storyline and could easily adapt pretty much everything from AotC:
- Hayden Christensen as Anakin. Cast more as a Han Solo in the story, self assured he can help them win the race if they set him free.
- Clone army already exists. Political argument is whether to deploy them to break the blockade of Naboo. Mention the use of force emboldening the separatists. Maybe even introduce Dooku as a senator threatening consequences. Clones show up with Palpatine at the end to save the day, Yoda wonders about the consequences.
Here is the Screen Junkies review. Screen Junkies always try to walk the line of honesty and staying positive, so the first three minutes are Roth trying to beat around the bush. Then Dan Murrell starts with “I did not like this movie” and proceeds from there. It’s worth a watch if you want to see a pair of film nerds discuss a trainwreck.
Highlights include:
“This is the worst Star Wars script I’ve ever seen.”
“JJ is just servicing himself.”
“Star Wars is a trap.”
However, they did think that some of the people who loved TFA and hated TLJ will really like this movie.
Galef wrote: Agreed. I actually liked TPM a lot when it came out (but to be fair I was only 14). In retrospect, however, you could completely skip Ep1 and all you'd really miss is the best light saber duel in the saga. Otherwise everything you need story-wise is in Ep2 (which I also liked when it came out, but it has since become my least favorite) and continued to Ep3, and marvelously expanded upon in the Clone Wars show.
So it would appear that the idea time between movies should really be 1-4 yrs, which 20-30 years between trilogies. 10 years between movie within a trilogy is too much and 1 day between is too short.
-
Ep2 is really the one for me where nothing of value happens. Yes, the Clone War begins, and we... technically... get time with Anakin's character, but the structure of that film is nonsense. TPM, for all the issues with details, actually has a really strong core storyline and could easily adapt pretty much everything from AotC:
- Hayden Christensen as Anakin. Cast more as a Han Solo in the story, self assured he can help them win the race if they set him free.
- Clone army already exists. Political argument is whether to deploy them to break the blockade of Naboo. Mention the use of force emboldening the separatists. Maybe even introduce Dooku as a senator threatening consequences. Clones show up with Palpatine at the end to save the day, Yoda wonders about the consequences.
That's like... basically it.
That'd be a brilliant way to do it. And it could allow the new "Ep2" focus on the Clone War itself, since it would have essentially already begun in Ep1
Wdll seen it. As expected tons of copy of prevlous ones, very llttle new, deus ex machne more than shonld ke legally allowed, bad swoid fights(lucky for rey and kyle neithbr fights competent swordman). Bit better than last one by improving good parts ff last one as it copied good parts of last one
The Screen Junkies video is interesting, right up until Roth repeats that vacuous canard that "it's impossible to please the fans".
No. Just, no. It really isn't. There is - and always has been - a happy medium between JJ's "if you plot this movie at less than 50mph then the cinema will explode!" memberberryfests, and Rian's petulant, pretentious film student shtick. A happy medium where new material can be just that - new, its own thing - without actively pissing on what came before.
Rogue One wasn't perfect, but it was good, and got a decent reception. Solo wasn't perfect, but it was decent enough, and once the backlash from TLJ had passed and people were giving it a shot on its own merits, it was broadly acknowledged as such. Just about everyone except the most misanthropic of 4chan trolls seems to love The Mandalorian.
The problems with the Sequels are not inherent to Star Wars, and "you can't please everyone" only works to deflect criticism up to a certain point, one looooong passed for Disney's attempt to add to the tale of the Skywalkers.
warboss wrote: Screen junkies was also one of the (many) professional media outlets that repeatedly gak on fans unhappy with TLJ fwiw.
They also appear to be among the many media outlets that are now striking a much more conciliatory tone. Hopefully that turns out to be the result of a bit of genuine reflection on the part of pro-critics rather than a cynical backpeddle.
In general though, I thought they were pretty fair - I've not seen the film yet, but it's been so thoroughly spoiled that's not much of an issue - and I suspect I'll end up in a similar end state to Dan though for slightly different reasons; I'll almost certainly be among the cohort who prefer it to TLJ, and even appreciate the fact that there are apparently a lot of retcons, re-explanations, and outright repudiations of that film, but I don't expect to experience any real joy or much of anything beyond some momentary exhilaration, much as with TFA. Which is where I'd depart from Dan - he laments the missed opportunity of a RoS that followed on from TLJ, whereas I lament the missed opportunity of the whole trilogy including TFA.
Yodhrin wrote: and even appreciate the fact that there are apparently a lot of retcons, re-explanations, and outright repudiations of that film, but I don't expect to experience any real joy or much of anything beyond some momentary exhilaration, much as with TFA. Which is where I'd depart from Dan - he laments the missed opportunity of a RoS that followed on from TLJ, whereas I lament the missed opportunity of the whole trilogy including TFA.
Spoiler:
Oh yeah. As it is even laws of physics in sw got retconned to level big plot point in tlj makes no sense anymore.
Lots of monkeying around at work today, claiming to have the high ground . Apparently someone is seeing it at midnight, others in the morning or even going as far as taking the day off unpaid. Totally pumped for the 4DX showing tomorrow...
So glad this has been released so close to Chrimbo because I'm 40 on New Years Eve and will probably see it again on the day as a proper hurrah not only to four decades of being a fan, but also the end of the Skywalker saga itself. Its been emotional, as Vinne Jones would say.
For better or worse, I wish you all a happy trip to the pictures and...MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU!
So glad this has been released so close to Chrimbo because I'm 40 on New Years Eve and will probably see it again on the day as a proper hurrah not only to four decades of being a fan, but also the end of the Skywalker saga itself. Its been emotional, as Vinne Jones would say.
Spoiler:
Though had they left it at VI nothing would have changed. IX is no more of an ending than VI was. As it is it was practically same ending as VI had with new actors...Continues the theme of VII to IX being just remakes of IV to VI without actually naming it as such.
The trend seems to be that all of the Access Media lice have realized that this might be the last big Star Wars movie for a while, and now- there's not much reason to stay leashed. After all, it's not like any of these sycophantic parasites had any real dignity to start with, but now- they might be trying to salvage that, as anyone from their audience with the mental capacity to wipe their own ass without getting feces in their mouth has abandoned them.
Yodhrin wrote: The Screen Junkies video is interesting, right up until Roth repeats that vacuous canard that "it's impossible to please the fans".....
I haven't watched the Screen Junkies video (staying away from reviews until after I see it on Sunday) but I actually think that in this specific case, that might be right, simply because TLJ was so divisive. If JJ chose to stay too close to RJ's vision, those who hated TLJ would complain. If he veers too far from what RJ set up, those who loved TLJ complain. While there's a middle ground, finding it would be like nailing jelly to a tree.
Mate of mine who hated TLJ says this one is his favourite of the sequel trilogy, for what that's worth.
Wow wow wow
I wasn't expecting anything, seeing as the 8th was such an insult to SW, and I was still disappointed. At least it retcon the 8th so much it confirms it's really a bad movie, objectively and according to the 9th. But there is nothing to retcon the 9th :(
Every single scene, every single character, is an insult to SW. They really went off the beam with this one.
The 7th is definitely the best of the last trilogy because even if it's a bad copy, it's still a copy of the 4th.
Yodhrin wrote: They also appear to be among the many media outlets that are now striking a much more conciliatory tone. Hopefully that turns out to be the result of a bit of genuine reflection on the part of pro-critics rather than a cynical backpeddle.
I'd guess it's more of the latter. Given that Disney has been letting their own employees give less than flattering opinions on TLJ now two years after the fact (and after two years of letting other employees act almost as bad as the worst fans), I think the media outlets just sense the change in wind direction and don't fear possible reprecussions. That's just general speculation on my part though as I don't plan on frequenting those media outlets myself to see. I don't have much power other than my clicks and a couple bucks to spend (a tiny drop in the buckets of the whole potential audience) but I won't throw that away either short of an actual apology.
Yodhrin wrote: The Screen Junkies video is interesting, right up until Roth repeats that vacuous canard that "it's impossible to please the fans".....
I haven't watched the Screen Junkies video (staying away from reviews until after I see it on Sunday) but I actually think that in this specific case, that might be right, simply because TLJ was so divisive. If JJ chose to stay too close to RJ's vision, those who hated TLJ would complain. If he veers too far from what RJ set up, those who loved TLJ complain. While there's a middle ground, finding it would be like nailing jelly to a tree.
Mate of mine who hated TLJ says this one is his favourite of the sequel trilogy, for what that's worth.
Pretty much. Many reviews are hating on the film for the fan service (at least according to the rotten tomato snippets) as well as for being less subversive than TLJ. While Rian Johnson's TLJ was the tipping point and single biggest factor IMO in the downward trajectory of this sequel trilogy, the rot set in with the largely derivative rehash that was TFA. It was buoyed by the fact that it was the first real new (I don't count that clone wars three or four episode "movie") in over a decade and the anticipation was quite high. I do agree though that JJ was in between a rock and a hard place and am surprised that he agreed to come back to do this frankly after seeing TLJ.
The fact that TLJ was largely well received by critics certainly makes it unsurprising that RoS going in a different direction might be less well received by them, for sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So far as JJ coming back - he's supposedly a massive Star Wars fan himself, and reportedly liked TLJ (even if he didn't necessarily agree with all of RJ's choices) so I don't think getting him to come back would have been difficult at all.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: No, you're just going to find people disliking something you like. You'll have to get over that.
I have no issue with people liking something I dislike. By all means, go right ahead.
I have an issue with people not enjoying things they spend their money on.
So, you might want to google "Irony" there, Jar Jar.
You said this about people who disagree with you about a sci-fi adventure movie.
The trend seems to be that all of the Access Media lice have realized that this might be the last big Star Wars movie for a while, and now- there's not much reason to stay leashed. After all, it's not like any of these sycophantic parasites had any real dignity to start with, but now- they might be trying to salvage that, as anyone from their audience with the mental capacity to wipe their own ass without getting feces in their mouth has abandoned them.
I did like RO and even Solo, really. I'm not against every new things and not even a boomer (yeah some people think the ones that didn't like the Disney trilogy are just too old ).
I even went to the movies theater to see this one !
But Gosh
Spoiler:
Tie fighters suddenly having hyperdrive capacities immediately put me off the movie and Palpatine having tens of thousands of spaceship with Death Star level of power (not even kidding) not even speaking about the constant creep in power and number and the fact it rectons every single of its own scene every 10 seconds (Rey burns her spaceship, she got a new one 10s later, etc) I enjoy the transporter scene with Rey and kylo though, probably the best of the movie. I liked the part on the planet where they get into 3po's memory too, not when they were on the spaceship.
Yodhrin wrote: The Screen Junkies video is interesting, right up until Roth repeats that vacuous canard that "it's impossible to please the fans".....
I haven't watched the Screen Junkies video (staying away from reviews until after I see it on Sunday) but I actually think that in this specific case, that might be right, simply because TLJ was so divisive. If JJ chose to stay too close to RJ's vision, those who hated TLJ would complain. If he veers too far from what RJ set up, those who loved TLJ complain. While there's a middle ground, finding it would be like nailing jelly to a tree.
Mate of mine who hated TLJ says this one is his favourite of the sequel trilogy, for what that's worth.
To an extent that's true, but I got the sense she meant it in a more general way(it's been a common sentiment from reviewers/professional nerds for a long while now whenever any significant segment of a given fandom disagrees with their take on a new installment that it was simply inevitable that a significant segment of said fandom would hate it no matter what it was, which is of course patent garbage, or that there's no possibility of a happy medium that would make almost everybody reasonably happy - it's not that [thing they like] is bad, or even merely controversial, it's just those raging manbabies who don't like change etc).
But yeah, sure, it would have been very difficult to nail things to the wall in this specific instance, but framing it as "the fans are impossible to please" rather than "the leadership of Lucasfilm have, through their ineptitude, created a scenario in which the audience is so divided it's almost impossible to reconcile that divide in a single movie" feels like shifting the responsibility to me.
Tie fighters suddenlyhaving hyperdrive capacities immediately put me off the movie and Palpatine having tens of thousands of spaceship with Death Star level of power (not even kidding) not even speaking about the constant creep in power and number and the fact it recton every single of its own scene every 10 seconds (Rey burns her spaceship, she got a new one 10s later, etc)
Wait a minute...
Spoiler:
How the hell did this not reduce the pilot into a paste, considering TIE fighters have no shielding or life support systems?
Tie fighters suddenlyhaving hyperdrive capacities immediately put me off the movie and Palpatine having tens of thousands of spaceship with Death Star level of power (not even kidding) not even speaking about the constant creep in power and number and the fact it recton every single of its own scene every 10 seconds (Rey burns her spaceship, she got a new one 10s later, etc)
Wait a minute...
Spoiler:
How the hell did this not reduce the pilot into a paste, considering TIE fighters have no shielding or life support systems?
Well, ask the "fans" and Disney. Maybe the magical Force can explain this too as it seems to be the strongest Deus ex machina of the decade
godardc wrote: Well, ask the "fans" and Disney. Maybe the magical Force can explain this too as it seems to be the strongest Deus ex machina of the decade
Tie fighters suddenlyhaving hyperdrive capacities immediately put me off the movie and Palpatine having tens of thousands of spaceship with Death Star level of power (not even kidding) not even speaking about the constant creep in power and number and the fact it recton every single of its own scene every 10 seconds (Rey burns her spaceship, she got a new one 10s later, etc)
Wait a minute...
Spoiler:
How the hell did this not reduce the pilot into a paste, considering TIE fighters have no shielding or life support systems?
Was it one of the TFA versions with the white wings?
It was a two-seater unlike the previous TIE models, and was outfitted with enhanced weapons and sensor systems as well as hyperdrives and deflector shields.
Assuming that it's the same kind obviously as I haven't seen the film.
Tie fighters suddenlyhaving hyperdrive capacities immediately put me off the movie and Palpatine having tens of thousands of spaceship with Death Star level of power (not even kidding) not even speaking about the constant creep in power and number and the fact it recton every single of its own scene every 10 seconds (Rey burns her spaceship, she got a new one 10s later, etc)
Wait a minute...
Spoiler:
How the hell did this not reduce the pilot into a paste, considering TIE fighters have no shielding or life support systems?
Was it one of the TFA versions with the white wings?
It was a two-seater unlike the previous TIE models, and was outfitted with enhanced weapons and sensor systems as well as hyperdrives and deflector shields.
Assuming that it's the same kind obviously as I haven't seen the film.
Why tf do they have the same name and just a stupid paint change then ? Everything is just so lazy with Disney it's crazy
Alas, there are too many spoiler tags to resist and I need to resist. I guess this thread is dead to me until I see it on Friday. See you all on Saturday
warboss wrote: Screen junkies was also one of the (many) professional media outlets that repeatedly gak on fans unhappy with TLJ fwiw.
This is true. Roth, especially, came across as a bit of a shill. Some of the others were just in it to snark or feel outraged. It was uncomfortable because Dan clearly didn’t like TLJ yet didn’t want to get drawn into debates, either.
Anyway, I like his reviews because he explains why he liked or did not like a movie well enough that I can usually tell from his reviews if I will like a movie, even if he didn’t. Roth is ...less reliable.
Why tf do they have the same name and just a stupid paint change then ? Everything is just so lazy with Disney it's crazy
It's not just a paint change. The engines is moved out from behind the pilot (to allow for the second seat) and replaced with twin engines on the wing struts, and it has shield generator pods on either side of the cockpit ball. It looks superficially like a regular TIE fighter, in the same way that the sequel-era X-wings are recognisable as such while also having a number of design changes.
warboss wrote: Screen junkies was also one of the (many) professional media outlets that repeatedly gak on fans unhappy with TLJ fwiw.
This is true. Roth, especially, came across as a bit of a shill. Some of the others were just in it to snark or feel outraged. It was uncomfortable because Dan clearly didn’t like TLJ yet didn’t want to get drawn into debates, either.
Anyway, I like his reviews because he explains why he liked or did not like a movie well enough that I can usually tell from his reviews if I will like a movie, even if he didn’t. Roth is ...less reliable.
I don't recall their specific TLJ discussion or review but, even if it was negative towards fans, I was more forgiving of blatant fan/customer dislike at the time. It was the months of snide little comments offered seemingly every time Star Wars came up as a topic even peripherally that pushed my buttons, especially by Hal (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1246550/). He seemed to relish never missing the opportunity to label unhappy fans with some sort of derogatory moniker. I'm a bit fuzzy after two years as seemingly all the outlets were pretty much running the same narratives but it was definitely his comments that finally made me unsubscribe one day after he took a dig on fans when Star Wars came up about a year after TLJ was released... maybe it was a promo puff piece for Solo.... Prior to that, I enjoyed their content though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Alas, there are too many spoiler tags to resist and I need to resist. I guess this thread is dead to me until I see it on Friday. See you all on Saturday
May the Schwartz be with you until then! Let us know what you think.
I haven’t seen Hal much at all in years. I stopped watching movie fights, and other than his Comicon bit, I don’t recall him doing anything else for them.
Considering how we’ve had issues discussing Star Wars since TLJ on this board, I’ll just chalk it up to “DisneyWars makes everyone angry”.
This thread's getting hard to read with all the spoiler boxes...
I keep hearing about some big moment where the force is used to do something. I really hope it's not a resurrection... please don't let it be Rey bringing Kylo back to life after she kills him during the final fight, and suddenly he's good...
(NB: I have read no leaks, nor any spoilers in that thread - the above paragraph is not a spoiler but rather just pure terror speculation)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also? Reviews saying there’s a lot of threads to follow etc? Got that odd feeling I’ve once again somehow a different film to others, as I found it very easy to follow?
Well if you squint hard and tilt your head slightly you can kinda make out what JJ may have intended as the original story before someone squeezed out a giant steaming log in the middle section of the trilogy.
I think that while TLJ will always be gak that given some time RoS could become one of those cult classics that people get gak faced and go watch to laugh at or get turned into a drinking game(a shot for every swipe)
Anyway my visit to the cinema was worth it for the audience participation if nothing else. I have been to comedy’s that got less laughs than RoS also some legend at one of the “emotional “ end scenes shouted “he’s the lucky one” a sentiment the actor apparently echos.
The front row appear to have all been together and there responses kept me going as I knew I was not the only one thinking wtf a lot.
So final ranking this is hard but worse than the ewok movies but better than the SW Christmas Special and TLJ
Looks like the rotten tomatoes score went up since I checked early yesterday and bounced between 58 and 59 this morning. Reading some more of the reviews, it really seems like many of the reviews are taking issue with the fan service in the film with some articles by media pundits flat out blaming the fans for the quality of the film. The only thing fans will be at fault for is the final box office take. Yup, it's our fault that Disney didn't have a coherent direction in 2014 for this trilogy.
I’ll never understand how fan service is a criticism?
Not having a go at peeps on Dakka, but reviewers.
End Game and now Rise of Skywalker. Both are event films, pay offs decades in the making.
WTF were they expecting? Both to suddenly be Rocky Horror Show style high camp musicals? Sudden dark and gritty noir in a Bogart style? Some god awful ‘The Future Is Disco’ Buck Rogers campfest?
What exactly is wrong with fan service? People who’ve followed the respective series through thick and thin getting a cinematic thank-you for ultimately making it all possible?
Again, not attacking anyone on Dakka, but how is ‘fan service’ a valid criticism in the circumstances?
Sorry, I can't seem to stay way from this thread. If I get spoiled it's my own fault. I have an addition.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: What exactly is wrong with fan service? People who’ve followed the respective series through thick and thin getting a cinematic thank-you for ultimately making it all possible?
Again, not attacking anyone on Dakka, but how is ‘fan service’ a valid criticism in the circumstances?
I agree. In a franchise as long as this one, fan service isn't just expected, it practically mandatory. Once you get to sequel territory (which SW has been for nearly 4 decades now), no further movie can be self contained and they will always carry expectations.
RoS and Endgame are not movies to watch one their own. They are built on the foundation of other movies, so the assumption is that people buying their tickets are not casual movie-goers who have never seen a SW movie. Therefore, "fan-service" should be perfectly acceptable
And if it's anything like Endgame, I'm gonna love it
Galef wrote: Sorry, I can't seem to stay way from this thread. If I get spoiled it's my own fault.
Wow! They do exist.
Someone that clicks on a thread with pages and pages of discussion and potential spoilers about a movie/game/TV show that They haven't seen and doesn't blame people for spoiling it.
You belong in a zoo or some kind of protected habitat where you can be studied.
End Game and now Rise of Skywalker. Both are event films, pay offs decades in the making.
WTF were they expecting? Both to suddenly be Rocky Horror Show style high camp musicals? Sudden dark and gritty noir in a Bogart style? Some god awful ‘The Future Is Disco’ Buck Rogers campfest?
What exactly is wrong with fan service? People who’ve followed the respective series through thick and thin getting a cinematic thank-you for ultimately making it all possible?
Again, not attacking anyone on Dakka, but how is ‘fan service’ a valid criticism in the circumstances?
The implication is that it's giving fans kewl stuff to 'oooo' and 'ahhh' over at the expense of telling a good story.
I think Endgame qualifies. It bears some resemblance to a fireworks display...cool to look at, thrilling and sometimes emotional. Entertaining. Still worth the price of admission. But it's not good storytelling so much as an studio-driven assembly of moments and nods and thank yous and farewells.
You're entitled to say 'who cares?' But it's well within the job description of the critics reviewing these things to explain that if your jam is plot and theme and introspection and character development and such...Endgame isn't for you. Right?
Galef wrote: Sorry, I can't seem to stay way from this thread. If I get spoiled it's my own fault.
Wow! They do exist.
Someone that clicks on a thread with pages and pages of discussion and potential spoilers about a movie/game/TV show that They haven't seen and doesn't blame people for spoiling it.
You belong in a zoo or some kind of protected habitat where you can be studied.
Normally, I eat spoilers for breakfast. I basically knew the whole plot of Endgame days before I actually saw it in theaters. And it didn't affect my experience at all.
But since this is the biggest SW event we'll get for a while, I'm trying to go in blind.
They feeling I got at the reveal of Baby Yoda in the Mando was awesome. I want that on a grander scale
Fanservice is such a broad term that good forms of it (as narrowly defined by the viewer) get lumped in with the bad, or the truly awful. In this case though, I don't think anybody complaining about it being a fanservicy movie are talking about a scene where the wind blows somebody's skirt up as they make v-signs to the camera - more likely they're talking about continuity porn.
And I for one am perfectly fine with that - because I'm more interested in the setting than the plot. It's not entirely unfair to say that relying on your audience to have seen and remember the previous movies locks a portion of that audience out of the experience, but this is the third movie in a trilogy, never mind that it's a Star Wars movie besides - its not a risky bet.
Captain Joystick wrote: but this is the third movie in a trilogy, never mind that it's a Star Wars movie besides - its not a risky bet.
More specifically, this is the 3rd movie of a trilogy that is the 3rd trilogy in a trilogy of trilogies (I think I just summoned a Tzeencth daemon somewhere), so it is the culmination of 9 movies over 4 decades. I'd be upset if there isn't fan service.
In fact, the lack of the "right" kind of fan service is probably why I'm kinda 'meh' about TLJ. I want to like that movie, but it just doesn't hit the right chords for me
Alpharius wrote: And yet, what are the odds that everyone in this thread will see it no longer then one month after release?
I’d even bet that Frazz has already bought his day one tix!
You'd be wrong. At least one of us - me - has no intention of seeing this movie, PERIOD. Disney got their money out of me for TLJ. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.
Alpharius wrote: And yet, what are the odds that everyone in this thread will see it no longer then one month after release?
I’d even bet that Frazz has already bought his day one tix!
You'd be wrong. At least one of us - me - has no intention of seeing this movie, PERIOD. Disney got their money out of me for TLJ. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.
Saw it last night. Much as I enjoyed TLJ, this is nothing like it.
Some have mentioned retcon. I politely disagree and argue it adds context.
Alpharius wrote: And yet, what are the odds that everyone in this thread will see it no longer then one month after release?
I’d even bet that Frazz has already bought his day one tix!
You'd be wrong. At least one of us - me - has no intention of seeing this movie, PERIOD. Disney got their money out of me for TLJ. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME.
God, you're brave.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Some have mentioned retcon. I politely disagree and argue it adds context.
I haven't seen it, and won't for another week or so. But yeah, I can totally see how that could be the case.
End Game and now Rise of Skywalker. Both are event films, pay offs decades in the making.
WTF were they expecting? Both to suddenly be Rocky Horror Show style high camp musicals? Sudden dark and gritty noir in a Bogart style? Some god awful ‘The Future Is Disco’ Buck Rogers campfest?
What exactly is wrong with fan service? People who’ve followed the respective series through thick and thin getting a cinematic thank-you for ultimately making it all possible?
Again, not attacking anyone on Dakka, but how is ‘fan service’ a valid criticism in the circumstances?
The problem is the Critic Mentality. These are people who watch a ridiculous amount of films, so over time they come to value novelty above every other attribute, particularly novelty in form or meta-commentary. It takes an exceptional degree of self-awareness to maintain perspective when you watch that much material, and the fact is the vast majority of "critics" aren't capable of it. As a result they lose touch with the general audience who typically watch a handful of movies a year, and tend to prefer the franchises they enjoy to retain the qualities and attributes that attracted them to them in the first place - to someone who is, in essence, bored of movies, but has to keep watching and commenting on them all because it's their job, that's simply anathema, because they crave change in the way most people enjoying entertainment usually crave familiarity.
That mentality in critics is also, I suspect, why the movie industry's PR spindoctors had such an easy time creating the narrative that people who disliked a new entry in a beloved franchise for [insert entirely valid reasons here] was really, deep down, motivated by one or more atavistic hatreds or phobias; "everyone who disagrees with my desire for novelty above all else is a monstrous -ist or -phobe" is a lot more soothing to the ego than admitting that the reality is you're just an out of touch snob that would much rather be lecturing on a film studies course with fellow rabid film-geeks than struggling to explain why all the things they like are bad to the reeking proles fahfahfah etc.
Well put and better expressed than I could have done myself. Yeah, I'm admittedly biased but I see a continuation of the vitriol against the fandom in the negative reviews of the film when they specifically reference fan service as a main issue. JJ and Disney have somewhat reversed course (not actually apologizing of course but simply not continuing to offend) and this is the Revenge of the Critics who have done their bidding in this proxy culture war for years only to be not catered to in the finale. Disney really was in a no win situation of their own making (so no sympathy from me) with this final installment. I'll be very curious to see the 4 day opening "weekend" box office total on Sunday night to see just how much damage they did to their own actual customer base (the fandom.. not the critics).
Captain Joystick wrote: We never needed to see how the Rebellion got the team back together between movies so I don't feel the need to do that for the Resistance, that's strictly comic book and novel faire, and it just so happens comic books and novels are coming out right now to cover it.
The Rebellion was never as thoroughly trashed at the end of a movie as the Resistance was at the end of TLJ.
Let's break it down to cases, shall we? At the end of ANH: yes, the Rebellion lost a bunch of stub fighters. We see over a thousand Rebels, in uniform, at the award ceremony for Luke and Han. There's clearly a lot more to the Rebellion than Gold and Red squadrons.
At the end of ESB: yes, the Rebellion lost quite a bit at Hoth, and things aren't looking all that good, but then we see the Rebellion has an actual FLEET, and not just a bunch of ground troopers and stub fighters.
At the end of TLJ: The ENTIRE Resistance fits into the Millennium Falcon, which is not a large ship. There's twenty of them, max. Leia's mysterious allies are not part of the Resistance and apparently they don't care if the New Order takes over.
So.... where DOES the capability to resist the New Order come from? And more to the point, given the vast organization needed to resist, how do the two dozen surviving Resistance members remain relevant among tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of outsiders happen?
So it very much DOES need to be covered in IX if you're going to have a hope of retaining the audience.
Captain Joystick wrote: We never needed to see how the Rebellion got the team back together between movies so I don't feel the need to do that for the Resistance, that's strictly comic book and novel faire, and it just so happens comic books and novels are coming out right now to cover it.
The Rebellion was never as thoroughly trashed at the end of a movie as the Resistance was at the end of TLJ.
Let's break it down to cases, shall we? At the end of ANH: yes, the Rebellion lost a bunch of stub fighters. We see over a thousand Rebels, in uniform, at the award ceremony for Luke and Han. There's clearly a lot more to the Rebellion than Gold and Red squadrons.
At the end of ESB: yes, the Rebellion lost quite a bit at Hoth, and things aren't looking all that good, but then we see the Rebellion has an actual FLEET, and not just a bunch of ground troopers and stub fighters.
At the end of TLJ: The ENTIRE Resistance fits into the Millennium Falcon, which is not a large ship. There's twenty of them, max. Leia's mysterious allies are not part of the Resistance and apparently they don't care if the New Order takes over.
So.... where DOES the capability to resist the New Order come from? And more to the point, given the vast organization needed to resist, how do the two dozen surviving Resistance members remain relevant among tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of outsiders happen?
So it very much DOES need to be covered in IX if you're going to have a hope of retaining the audience.
So, my outlook on this, TLJ took place immediately after TFA, right? The galaxy is still reeling from the loss of the New Republic's capital systems from Star Killers attack.
There just hasn't been time to mobilize assets yet. Everyone who took part in the Rebellion knows the game. You start small, you get assets rolling. If ROS takes place some years later, then more and more assets can become involved, now that the real threat of the First Order is understood. Mon Cal can start cranking out cruisers again, old mothballed ships can be reacquired, etc. We're talking an entire galaxy here, thousands and thousands of populated systems. Sure, a huge blow was dealt, but as the Rebel's tv show showed us, destroy one cell doesn't kill the entire rebellion. Others are out there, others will rise up.
Captain Joystick wrote: We never needed to see how the Rebellion got the team back together between movies so I don't feel the need to do that for the Resistance, that's strictly comic book and novel faire, and it just so happens comic books and novels are coming out right now to cover it.
The Rebellion was never as thoroughly trashed at the end of a movie as the Resistance was at the end of TLJ.
Let's break it down to cases, shall we? At the end of ANH: yes, the Rebellion lost a bunch of stub fighters. We see over a thousand Rebels, in uniform, at the award ceremony for Luke and Han. There's clearly a lot more to the Rebellion than Gold and Red squadrons.
At the end of ESB: yes, the Rebellion lost quite a bit at Hoth, and things aren't looking all that good, but then we see the Rebellion has an actual FLEET, and not just a bunch of ground troopers and stub fighters.
At the end of TLJ: The ENTIRE Resistance fits into the Millennium Falcon, which is not a large ship. There's twenty of them, max. Leia's mysterious allies are not part of the Resistance and apparently they don't care if the New Order takes over.
So.... where DOES the capability to resist the New Order come from? And more to the point, given the vast organization needed to resist, how do the two dozen surviving Resistance members remain relevant among tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of outsiders happen?
So it very much DOES need to be covered in IX if you're going to have a hope of retaining the audience.
ANH doesn't help your argument. A thousand Rebels couldn't take and hold Green Bay, Wisconsin, let alone pose a threat to a Galactic Empire. Nevermind that at least half those Rebs are probably maintenace and support staff, not combat soldiers. And all we see of their space capabilities are the Tantive and a handful of fighters. They have next to no resources in that film, and we're led to believe the Yavin base represents most of them.
For those planning to see the film today (or have already), is the space horsey charge across the Star Destroyer in an atmosphere/gravity or in space? It's in the trailers so it's not a spoiler.
djones520 wrote: There just hasn't been time to mobilize assets yet. Everyone who took part in the Rebellion knows the game. You start small, you get assets rolling. If ROS takes place some years later, then more and more assets can become involved, now that the real threat of the First Order is understood. Mon Cal can start cranking out cruisers again, old mothballed ships can be reacquired, etc. We're talking an entire galaxy here, thousands and thousands of populated systems. Sure, a huge blow was dealt, but as the Rebel's tv show showed us, destroy one cell doesn't kill the entire rebellion. Others are out there, others will rise up.
Like I said way back when, a lot of this is covered in the intervening EU material (because if anything, the sequel trilogy is being tackled by Lucasfilm like they did the Shadows of the Empire project) and in particular we get a lot of nuggets out of resistance reborn:
Spoiler:
-The FO broadcast what they did to the Hosnian System to the rest of the galaxy, and the New Republic's representative systems frantically split off to defend their own holdings. News of Starkiller Base's destruction hasn't gotten out at the time of novel, and may have been suppressed.
-The FO of FA and TLJ aren't big enough to conquer the galaxy, instead focussing on specific systems like Corellia and Mon Cala. Taking systems with strategic value and threatening to go after any New Republic system that doesn't declare neutrality.
-The Resistance fuels up at one such neutral system, the FO shows up and bombs said system back to the stone age.
-The Resistance shows up and Fondor shipyards but are turned away. The FO shows up and bombs them into the stone age for even talking with them.
-There are Resistance cells all over, but most of them aren't responding, per TLJ - it seems the First Order hit a lot of them during or just before they blew up the Hosnian system.
-We have a fun little confrontation with one cell though, Poe has to cobble together a hero speech to keep his ragtag bunch of misfits and Holdo's ragtag bunch of misfits from tearing each other apart.
-Also the FO gets up to some actual villainy, which is nice to see finally. They've locked down galactic communications somewhat, are confiscating every letter-wing they can find and shipping them off to be scrapped, and rounding up dissidents, Republic politicians, and outspoken pop stars and using them for slave labor.
But a lot of the central plot of that book is about how they go about rebuilding their forces after the end of the last movie.
... I should probably finish it, now that I think about it.
warboss wrote: For those planning to see the film today (or have already), is the space horsey charge across the Star Destroyer in an atmosphere/gravity or in space? It's in the trailers so it's not a spoiler.
warboss wrote: For those planning to see the film today (or have already), is the space horsey charge across the Star Destroyer in an atmosphere/gravity or in space? It's in the trailers so it's not a spoiler.
Spoilering all the same.
Spoiler:
Takes place in atmosphere.
Thanks. So.. the First Order could have defeated the charge of the durp brigade by
Spoiler:
simply listing to one side and watching them all helplessly fall off? Lol... I'm assuming of course they didn't devote a scene to fitting the space horses with mag boots.
Galef wrote: Sorry, I can't seem to stay way from this thread. If I get spoiled it's my own fault.
Wow! They do exist.
Someone that clicks on a thread with pages and pages of discussion and potential spoilers about a movie/game/TV show that They haven't seen and doesn't blame people for spoiling it.
You belong in a zoo or some kind of protected habitat where you can be studied.
Normally, I eat spoilers for breakfast. I basically knew the whole plot of Endgame days before I actually saw it in theaters. And it didn't affect my experience at all.
But since this is the biggest SW event we'll get for a while, I'm trying to go in blind.
They feeling I got at the reveal of Baby Yoda in the Mando was awesome. I want that on a grander scale
warboss wrote: Well put and better expressed than I could have done myself. Yeah, I'm admittedly biased but I see a continuation of the vitriol against the fandom in the negative reviews of the film when they specifically reference fan service as a main issue. JJ and Disney have somewhat reversed course (not actually apologizing of course but simply not continuing to offend) and this is the Revenge of the Critics who have done their bidding in this proxy culture war for years only to be not catered to in the finale. Disney really was in a no win situation of their own making (so no sympathy from me) with this final installment. I'll be very curious to see the 4 day opening "weekend" box office total on Sunday night to see just how much damage they did to their own actual customer base (the fandom.. not the critics).
I think "fan service" is one of those phrases that has become almost meaningless. Respecting the original films, getting the details right, and striving for continuity should never be dismissed as fan service. I prefer Jahn's term "memberberries" for low-effort "look, I did a thing you liked the first time" inclusions in a film. For my tastes, TFA was a worse movie than TLJ because at least TLJ tried to do something newish (and also, despite his weaknesses as a writer, RJ understands that a movie is not a collection of scenes with no connective tissue, giving him a commanding lead over Abrams). TLJ might make me angry; TFA doesn't make me feel anything.
I disagree with you on the motivations of the critics, but I do agree that Disney deserves the blame.
Captain Joystick wrote: We never needed to see how the Rebellion got the team back together between movies so I don't feel the need to do that for the Resistance, that's strictly comic book and novel faire, and it just so happens comic books and novels are coming out right now to cover it.
The Rebellion was never as thoroughly trashed at the end of a movie as the Resistance was at the end of TLJ.
Let's break it down to cases, shall we? At the end of ANH: yes, the Rebellion lost a bunch of stub fighters. We see over a thousand Rebels, in uniform, at the award ceremony for Luke and Han. There's clearly a lot more to the Rebellion than Gold and Red squadrons.
At the end of ESB: yes, the Rebellion lost quite a bit at Hoth, and things aren't looking all that good, but then we see the Rebellion has an actual FLEET, and not just a bunch of ground troopers and stub fighters.
At the end of TLJ: The ENTIRE Resistance fits into the Millennium Falcon, which is not a large ship. There's twenty of them, max. Leia's mysterious allies are not part of the Resistance and apparently they don't care if the New Order takes over.
So.... where DOES the capability to resist the New Order come from? And more to the point, given the vast organization needed to resist, how do the two dozen surviving Resistance members remain relevant among tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of outsiders happen?
So it very much DOES need to be covered in IX if you're going to have a hope of retaining the audience.
ANH doesn't help your argument. A thousand Rebels couldn't take and hold Green Bay, Wisconsin, let alone pose a threat to a Galactic Empire. Nevermind that at least half those Rebs are probably maintenace and support staff, not combat soldiers. And all we see of their space capabilities are the Tantive and a handful of fighters. They have next to no resources in that film, and we're led to believe the Yavin base represents most of them.
This is just wrong.
We see that the Rebellion has a senator on their side as well as the implied support of a core world (Alderaan) with Leia clearly coordinating between cells. We know the rebellion was capable enough to steal the plans of the Desth Star. There's no reason to assume the entire Rebellion is at Yavin; Tarkin makes it clear that he expects the threat of the DS to scare the rebels further underground and dry up support for them among planetary populations and governments. That's how blowing up Yavin ends the rebellion, not by literally vaporizing every rebel.
I disagree with you on the motivations of the critics, but I do agree that Disney deserves the blame.
I'm not sure I follow on the first part. You don't think anti-fan rhetoric is behind some of the bad reviews? Here's one prominent detractor who has repeatedly attacked fans over the years and was one of the first to give it a bad review.
Review: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Is The Worst ‘Star Wars’ Movie Ever
The Rise of Skywalker is a bad movie and a miserable finale that serves no purpose other than to reassure adult fans of the original Star Wars that they are still the “chosen ones” of the pop culture galaxy.
You'd think a financial magazine/organization like Forbes would be a bit more even handed in their approach but no such luck. His synopsis blurb right under the article title is devoted to insulting fans of the original trilogy. His motivation isn't subtle especially given his preview night tweet below...
So, #TheRiseOfSkwalker... in the end, it was STAR WARS "fans" that killed #StarWars
I'm not saying that it's the only thing behind his negative review but it certainly is one of the main factors. The fandom shouldn't IMO play such a prominent role in his review of a film that it makes it to the top; at best, it should be a single sentence buried somewhere in the middle and not mentioned above things above things like plot and characters. Professional critics are sadly anything but nowadays and view themselves equally as activists and I think that's why the fandom figures both so prominently and negatively in his review.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think "fan service" is one of those phrases that has become almost meaningless. Respecting the original films, getting the details right, and striving for continuity should never be dismissed as fan service. I prefer Jahn's term "memberberries" for low-effort "look, I did a thing you liked the first time" inclusions in a film. For my tastes, TFA was a worse movie than TLJ because at least TLJ tried to do something newish (and also, despite his weaknesses as a writer, RJ understands that a movie is not a collection of scenes with no connective tissue, giving him a commanding lead over Abrams). TLJ might make me angry; TFA doesn't make me feel anything.
I agree with you on the current misuse of the term fan service. It's being used to broadly as a scape goat by the media (you don't seem to agree with that part) to describe bad plot that side references older canon, blatant pandering, and actual intelligent fan service. I haven't seen this movie obviously but I didn't enjoy the shallow remaking of ANH in TFA. I walked out of that with family who thought it was good (not great but just good) and they were surprised that I didn't like it. When I told them that it was basically a mediocre and forgettable remake of the original movie, they didn't believe me until I did a short synopsis and asked them to tell me which movie I was referring to and why. i.e. A supposedly unimportant orphan on a desert planet encounters a droid with great significance in the fight against the galactic overlords ends up escaping the planet on the millenium falcon, meeting up with the freedom fighters who lost the droid, discovers that he or she has secret mystical powers, loses their impromptu surrogate father/mentor to an evil space wizard dressed in black, and helps destroy the tyrannical regime's massive planet destroying base. Are they identical beat for beat? No, of course not... but I don't think you can tell which movie I was referring to. That to me wasn't fan service but unoriginal derivative story telling.
warboss wrote: For those planning to see the film today (or have already), is the space horsey charge across the Star Destroyer in an atmosphere/gravity or in space? It's in the trailers so it's not a spoiler.
Since I didn't see the film, I felt it better to ask just in case before offering my humble explanation of how to defeat such a devastating and ingenious tactic in the epic battle between equine and space capital ship.
warboss wrote: Since I didn't see the film, I felt it better to ask just in case before offering my humble explanation of how to defeat such a devastating and ingenious tactic in the epic battle between equine and space capital ship.
Yet you can’t possibly have sent it?
Perhaps reserve any and all judgement until you’ve seen said film?
I should have been more clear. I meant I don’t agree that critics are savaging TROS due to Collider-esque entitlement meltdowns out of a sense that Disney betrayed their deliberate shillery. I feel there are a few big camps of critics who hate the movie for legitimate (at least to them) reasons, and their reviews would not align so well if the movie were actually well made.
I should have been more clear. I meant I don’t agree that critics are savaging TROS due to Collider-esque entitlement meltdowns out of a sense that Disney betrayed their deliberate shillery. I feel there are a few big camps of critics who hate the movie for legitimate (at least to them) reasons, and their reviews would not align so well if the movie were actually well made.
Fair enough. FWIW, I agree with the part that last sentence. I certaintly don't feel that every negative review is tainted but rather that there are enough of them that I personally can't take them in good faith without looking deeper. They've just lost the benefit of the doubt with me. I'm also that way with members of the fandom menace who I find grating after 60 seconds. I look forward to reading your reply later.
I forgot about the Harlow guy who had the meltdown. I know his buddy and now partner in business John Campea gave it an intial thumbs down (with qualifications) but I didn't bother to check their show together to see their final in depth opinions. Incidentally, Campea's initial reaction to the TLJ was almost identical to his ROS one and then changed to a positive followed by subsequent years of fan bashing.
Finally, a sequel with an actual foundation to work from, and its mostly thanks to the Emperor and the primary focus on the heroic trio of Poe, Finn and Rey.
Rise of Skywalker is not only the best sequel but also one of the better saga movies. My hat off to JJ for not falling into the same trap as he did with The Force Awakens which was remaking A New Hope. There are throw backs and nods to other episodes(mostly ROTJ), but its mostly its own thing.
It does have its share of problems; a bit long for a SW movie, supporting characters are mostly redundant and too many desert and forest planets where Tatooine and Endor's moon would have sufficed. I've also given up trying to keep note of which snow planet is which. Felt a bit confused with the epic space battle.
Otherwise, a good star wars movie and end to the saga itself.
I'll be watching this review tonight. It's not as long at only 57 minutes. I really enjoyed his in depth and thoughtful analysis of other films in the past (including TLJ). A potential trigger warning for the easily offended... it won't be an overall positive video given the title. And obviously spoiler alert as well.
I'm also subscribed to shadiversity but moreso for his explanations of more practical things like how people took a dump in medieval castles rather than his media reviews. I can't place his accent though. Does anyone know where he's from? It sounds like a mix of kiwi and british to me but I'm far from an expert in the myriad of UK accents.
warboss wrote: Since I didn't see the film, I felt it better to ask just in case before offering my humble explanation of how to defeat such a devastating and ingenious tactic in the epic battle between equine and space capital ship.
Yet you can’t possibly have sent it?
Perhaps reserve any and all judgement until you’ve seen said film?
I don't think any of those things are true at least from the reviews I've watched. I'm not sure if you're trolling but it's probably best not to give anyone an aneurysm with incorrect speculation.
Spoiler:
Again, I haven't seen it but Rey kisses Kylo at the end and Han is apparently a hallucination (not a force ghost?) during Kylo's return to the light.
warboss wrote: Since I didn't see the film, I felt it better to ask just in case before offering my humble explanation of how to defeat such a devastating and ingenious tactic in the epic battle between equine and space capital ship.
Yet you can’t possibly have sent it?
Perhaps reserve any and all judgement until you’ve seen said film?
Dude the review is more than an hour long, what kind of pompous... does an hour long review?
Someone who wants to go through each and every obvious problem in the movie. He admits that he probably left out many smaller problems. That it takes him an hour to do so tells you much about just how bad he thinks the movie is.
warboss wrote: I'm also subscribed to shadiversity but moreso for his explanations of more practical things like how people took a dump in medieval castles rather than his media reviews. I can't place his accent though. Does anyone know where he's from? It sounds like a mix of kiwi and british to me but I'm far from an expert in the myriad of UK accents.
He's from Australia. He's done meet and greets down under and in some of his videos he's even said what city he lives in.
Fresh from seeing it. This movie was like TLJ and TFA thrown into blender and poured out as one big movie. It had some really good stuff, also some cringe-worthy stuff and much cookie-cutter stuff. Overall it just felt like overlong and too many elements crammed in. And sad to say, big plot reveals were lame. Like fan theory stuff-lame.
I wouldn't say it was actively bad like the prequels, however of all the DT movies, this one suffers from pacing issues the most. Also, the lack of overall vision for the saga becomes glaringly obvious.
For those of you watching in real time, mad doc suggested someone not comment on the movie until they'd seen it in its entirety.
Said person made a snark at a scene shown in a trailer, after clarifying from someone who had seen the movie that the scene was actually showing what they thought it was showing.
warboss wrote:Thanks. So.. the First Order could have defeated the charge of the durp brigade by
Spoiler:
simply listing to one side and watching them all helplessly fall off? Lol... I'm assuming of course they didn't devote a scene to fitting the space horses with mag boots.
Spoiler:
As I understand, that would have caused all the stormtroopers and personnel and fighters inside to also fall over and slide all around the halls. Probably something you'd rather avoid.
This does, however, work on two assumptions - that the ISD's own gravity generator thingy is turned off (and in atmosphere, it usually seems to be?), and that, if it were on anyways, all the cavalry would "stick" to it - basically that the gravity would affect people on the outside, as well as inside.
Togusa wrote:
Spoiler:
So Rey is a lesbian or something
Spoiler:
Not at all.
Now I personally am disappointed that Finn and Poe were never given a romantic relationship, instead of two no-name extras that will most likely be cut out of versions which might offend less accepting nations, but that's a different matter.
Spoiler:
and Han Solo isn't dead?
Spoiler:
Also no. He's a figment of Kylo's imagination, or simply speaking to him from beyond the veil. I kinda think they should have given Han a "force glow" effect, like with every other Force Ghost, but, I guess he isn't a Jedi/Sith, so can't be a force ghost? Maybe?
Posted this as a separate thread, but apparently we have one already (I thought it was for discussing the trailer)...
I was born in 1977.
I never saw the Star Wars original trilogy at the cinema, however I grew up watching it on TV, Christmas was Star Wars (and The Great Escape) here in the UK during the 80s and early 90s before the invention of Sky and digital TV.
I have been a Star Wars fan ever since.
I, like may fans, didn't like The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi. I mistakenly went to see TFA at the cinema, and skipped TLJ until it came out on BluRay.
Yesterday, on UK general release day (?), I went to see Rise of Skywalker at my local Cineworld.
I went in mostly cold. Having not really paid attention to any of the hype, I did however watch the trailer where it showed the Star Destroyer coming out of the water.
I was a little miffed however with Cineworld, I booked seat F12, one of the two seats smack bang in the middle of the audio coverage, for that perfect audio experience. However my local Cineworld is setup so that if you sit in the audio sweet spot the screen is far too close and it's difficult to see the edges without taking your eyes off the middle of the screen! Couple that with the screen seeming too dark (brightness/contrast needs to be adjusted I think) and the fact that the movie appeared to have a grain on it, I wasn't all that satisfied with Cineworld's showing of the movie.
My mini review/thoughts of the movie itself -
Spoiler:
The movie starts out promising, much force there is with this one. It was good to see Darth Sidious return - rumours/details of his survival (cloning etc) have been in the expanded universe/fan fiction for decades. Although questions of how he survived still go unanswered in this movie - it's a case of "look everyone The Emperor is back!". Largely gone is the moralising and social commentary from The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi that irked so many of us, so that is another plus point.
However there are, again, too many additional characters shoe horned in for no particular reason other than "inclusion" and to give "new" actors a leg up, Poe has a (lame) backstory shoe horned in, because. And some things don't seem to be very well thought out, many things seemed tacked on, and there are many things that annoyed me from a lack of detail/confusing detail point, for example -
Again Snoke isn't explained. Apparently Palpatine created him or something...
Nothing really happens in the "space battle". People are flying around, fighters/small ships get destroyed, but it's a general mess and it seems like it's there as a tacked on event with very little of the main goal (to destroy the Sith fleet) actually being worked towards or achieved and there's too many "in cockpit" bits with Poe and co. chatting instead of getting on with it!
The "command" Star Destroyer being forced to "reboot" with just a few thermal detonators (?) shoved down an access hatch is ridiculous! Finn and his new buddy, destroying said Star Destroyer, that they're standing on the outside of, with some kind of gun battery (turbo laser or ion cannon?) that they magically hot wire, and then conveniently end up getting rescued by Lando and Chewie in the Falcon when said Star Destroyer starts to disintegrate, is again slightly ridiculous! As is the charge of the space horse brigade!
The Death Star, as we know was vaporised in RoTJ (regardless of which SFX version you watch), and yet wreckage, quite a large chunk of it, including Palpatine's throne room, is conveniently located in an ocean on a planet in the Endor system?! That whole bit where Rey goes to the wreckage of the Death Star annoys me, it introduces a "tribe" of Stormtrooper deserters riding around on some sort of "horses". For no reason. They don't need to even be there. Rey gets to the Death Star wreckage on her own!
Rey is still that "perfect specimen of womanhood", but I guess given they established that in TFA that was never going to go away. At least now they've, conveniently, explained it away by telling us her lineage...
Kylo Ren is still a poorly acted bad comedy version of Darth Vader, and then he kind of does an Anakin Skywalker at the end...
Palpatine's "death" is confusing. He states that if Rey kills him, his spirit will enter her and he will be reborn, yet despite being killed, somehow his spirit does not enter Rey (or Ben Solo)...
Maybe I'm getting old, but the whole film is just too busy (and at times it's busy despite nothing actually happening), too many deus ex machinas, too disjointed, too many pointless characters, too many "fan service" cameos (Wedge Antilles appears in a gunner seat of the Falcon in the final "space battle", yay! /sarcasm), and too many questions are able to be be asked but remain left unanswered.
There's also a lesbian kiss at the end of the movie. Blink and you'll miss it, it's a non-event (which is a good thing). But, it was put in, just because, WOKE. I find it unnecessary, seeing as it's two non-entities who have no bearing on the plot, although one of the women does have a line or two, she's one of those blatant random characters shoe-horned in for no particular reason that we seem to have to suffer these days, but the media and activists on both sides have unecessarily latched on to it and we know it was just put in there for that reason...
It's not as bad as TFA and TLJ, as far as movies go in general it's a half decent movie, and it serves at least in part as a memorial to Carrie Fisher. Is it as good as The Original Trilogy. No.
I wish they'd re-release The Original Trilogy in the cinema so I can experience them in the cinema.
What I'd like to see now is a few movies covering events between RoTS and a ANH (Darth Vader, a Star Wars Story?), Rogue One was a half decent start, Solo, not so much, Kenobi? (I'm praying). And a movie or two between RoTJ and TFA detailing the rise of "The First Order", Darth Sidious's survival, and dare I say it Ben Solo's downward spiral to becoming Kylo Ren.
Wouldn't mind a series of movies where it's in the future from RoS, the Jedi order is re-established, and a new republic is in place, although I'm not sure what the story would be about, perhaps the rise of the Sith again...
Thanks for the recap. While I too was born in the late 70's and was a child of the 80's, I didn't see the original trilogy in theaters until they were rereleased. I was of course well aware of them and had seen them in part or in full many times but it was still worth it even with the "special" versions that Lucas messed with to see it all on the big screen. I do hope they release the originals some time as a special event so you and others can watch them.
Just a weird aside, my first actual memory of Star Wars was actually from the little snippets in the Muppet Babies saturday morning cartoons I used to watch. The first time I watched ANH was in school (3rd or 4th grade) on VHS in the classroom on a giantic suitcase sized 1970's top loading very loud and clanky VCR. It's strange that those memories stand out for me so much.
SamusDrake wrote: Have a nice time, Togusa, and seriously go in expecting the Star Wars Holiday Special and you should be alright.
Well. The Holiday Special is the Lord of the fething Rings compared to this nightmare.
I would like to get my 10 dollars back.
Overall rating: 1/5
The first 40 minutes of the film is non-stop gunshots and fights and running and jumping and so on. It was painful to sit through, I kept finding myself constantly confused as characters would pose questions, and other characters would just magically know the exact answer to said questions. This happens half a dozen times through the film.
Spoiler:
Rey just happens to know where she needs to go, because Force.
Spoiler:
3PO can speak Sith. But he can't tell you about it. We'll have to wipe his memory! R2 has a backup! REASONS!
Spoiler:
Star Destroyers can't use shields on Sith Pleasure Planet (SPP from now on). But, we can't shoot the magic map tower with an X-Wing. Finn and some chick he met LITERALLY 20 minutes ago must go on foot, outside the SD to destroy the Magic Map Tower. Again,REASONS.
Spoiler:
Big fleet of star Destroyers. Why? No body knows where it came from or how. REASONS!
Spoiler:
Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.
Spoiler:
Royal Guard, who I am pretty sure are supposed to be immune or at least resistant to the Force are tossed around like squeaky toys. LAUGHABLY BAD.
Spoiler:
The Death Star fell on some random planet that looks nothing like both Endor or Yavin. No explanation. Because REASONS!
Spoiler:
Kylo is Ben, and then he randomly dies at the end because REASONS!
Spoiler:
Oh Noes, Rey is a Palpatine. Somehow. Because, you guessed it! REASONS!
Spoiler:
Tie Fighters can go light-speed now. For some reason.
Aside from that the acting and the written dialogue was atrociously bad. The jokes were so cringey. I couldn't believe what I was hearing come out of the mouths of some of the characters. 3PO made me want to punch kittens, and Poe should have stepped on a landmine. I have to say that a lot of the cast looked like they were just phoning it in so that they could get paid, especially the supporting cast, who seemed to barely be able to act. It made it difficult to watch.
The best thing about this botched abortion of a film is that it ended.
God is dead. We killed him. Abandon all hope, ye who enter to see this 'film.'
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Togusa, that final sentence makes me want to see this almost as much as I want to see Cats.
I really tried. I went in with no expectations, having seen no credible spoilers, and I was able to correctly predict EVERY. SINGLE. SURPRISE.
I kept thinking. Who are all these people and why the hell do I care?
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Backfire wrote: Fresh from seeing it. This movie was like TLJ and TFA thrown into blender and poured out as one big movie. It had some really good stuff, also some cringe-worthy stuff and much cookie-cutter stuff. Overall it just felt like overlong and too many elements crammed in. And sad to say, big plot reveals were lame. Like fan theory stuff-lame.
I wouldn't say it was actively bad like the prequels, however of all the DT movies, this one suffers from pacing issues the most. Also, the lack of overall vision for the saga becomes glaringly obvious.
The Prequels were Vivaldi Symphonies compared to this mess.
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SamusDrake wrote: Finally, a sequel with an actual foundation to work from, and its mostly thanks to the Emperor and the primary focus on the heroic trio of Poe, Finn and Rey.
Rise of Skywalker is not only the best sequel but also one of the better saga movies. My hat off to JJ for not falling into the same trap as he did with The Force Awakens which was remaking A New Hope. There are throw backs and nods to other episodes(mostly ROTJ), but its mostly its own thing.
It does have its share of problems; a bit long for a SW movie, supporting characters are mostly redundant and too many desert and forest planets where Tatooine and Endor's moon would have sufficed. I've also given up trying to keep note of which snow planet is which. Felt a bit confused with the epic space battle.
Otherwise, a good star wars movie and end to the saga itself.
Um. It's literally Return of the Jedi. The entire plot is exactly the same.
Spoiler:
Jedi all but gone. You're our only hope, Mary Sue. Resistance losing. Empire has super weapon of ultimate power. Young Jedi wannabe learns the truth about herself. Emperor does things. Emperor is killed (Again). Super Weapons of Ultimate Power are destroyed in last desperate gamble. Celebration. [No Ewok Music this time, but we did get to see two of the bears watch what looked like an SSD AGAIN get blown up over Endor.] Everyone gets a medal. Hugs all around. Roll Credits.
I disagree with you on the motivations of the critics, but I do agree that Disney deserves the blame.
I'm not sure I follow on the first part. You don't think anti-fan rhetoric is behind some of the bad reviews? Here's one prominent detractor who has repeatedly attacked fans over the years and was one of the first to give it a bad review.
Review: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Is The Worst ‘Star Wars’ Movie Ever
The Rise of Skywalker is a bad movie and a miserable finale that serves no purpose other than to reassure adult fans of the original Star Wars that they are still the “chosen ones” of the pop culture galaxy.
You'd think a financial magazine/organization like Forbes would be a bit more even handed in their approach but no such luck. His synopsis blurb right under the article title is devoted to insulting fans of the original trilogy. His motivation isn't subtle especially given his preview night tweet below...
Yeah, that's pretty pathetic. I don't like critics blaming "the fans". It strikes me as the laziest kind of scapegoating. If i were an editor at that magazine I would have asked him to change that or not published.
So, #TheRiseOfSkwalker... in the end, it was STAR WARS "fans" that killed #StarWars
I'm not saying that it's the only thing behind his negative review but it certainly is one of the main factors. The fandom shouldn't IMO play such a prominent role in his review of a film that it makes it to the top; at best, it should be a single sentence buried somewhere in the middle and not mentioned above things above things like plot and characters. Professional critics are sadly anything but nowadays and view themselves equally as activists and I think that's why the fandom figures both so prominently and negatively in his review.
below...
There are critics who want to rant about culture war crap or whatever bothers them and simply use the film as an excuse. I tend to tune out reviewers who discuss the fans or culture war stuff as anything other than bare context (for the kinds of films where that matters). Unfortunately, clicks get money, outrage gets clicks, and pushing an angle gets outrage.
And some people would just be ranting at the bus station if they didn't have a YouTube channel.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think "fan service" is one of those phrases that has become almost meaningless. Respecting the original films, getting the details right, and striving for continuity should never be dismissed as fan service. I prefer Jahn's term "memberberries" for low-effort "look, I did a thing you liked the first time" inclusions in a film. For my tastes, TFA was a worse movie than TLJ because at least TLJ tried to do something newish (and also, despite his weaknesses as a writer, RJ understands that a movie is not a collection of scenes with no connective tissue, giving him a commanding lead over Abrams). TLJ might make me angry; TFA doesn't make me feel anything.
I agree with you on the current misuse of the term fan service. It's being used to broadly as a scape goat by the media (you don't seem to agree with that part) to describe bad plot that side references older canon, blatant pandering, and actual intelligent fan service.
below...
Somewhat. I don't approve when a studio blames the fans as a strategy, or when reviewers project onto franchise fanbases. However, there are times when we disagree on whether someone is blaming the fanbase for their movie being bad or someone is blaming a small, motivated group of ostensible fans for creating controversy.
(I'm thinking of that Terminator movie here. To me, the director was was not badmouthing all fans, but rather one group who lost their crap over an advertising campaign outside his control. I read some of the more political reviews from both sides of the spectrum when we thought a conversation was going to develop, and they were just full of projection, half-truths and people seeing things that weren't there. The film had fewer blatant "wymyn powerrr" lines than Laura Dern got in Jurassic Park, but you would think it was the Feminine Mystique all over again from the reviews. I hate it when reviewers drag their baggage into a review and won't let movies just be movies.)
I haven't seen this movie obviously but I didn't enjoy the shallow remaking of ANH in TFA. I walked out of that with family who thought it was good (not great but just good) and they were surprised that I didn't like it. When I told them that it was basically a mediocre and forgettable remake of the original movie, they didn't believe me until I did a short synopsis and asked them to tell me which movie I was referring to and why. i.e. A supposedly unimportant orphan on a desert planet encounters a droid with great significance in the fight against the galactic overlords ends up escaping the planet on the millenium falcon, meeting up with the freedom fighters who lost the droid, discovers that he or she has secret mystical powers, loses their impromptu surrogate father/mentor to an evil space wizard dressed in black, and helps destroy the tyrannical regime's massive planet destroying base. Are they identical beat for beat? No, of course not... but I don't think you can tell which movie I was referring to. That to me wasn't fan service but unoriginal derivative story telling.
I felt that way discussing TFA on forums, like I was the only one who cold see the film for what it was, but I had supportive friends in real life. I also have real problems with how Abrams constructs and paces his films. To me he feels like one of those directors whom Red Letter Media describe as "an alien who saw a movie once".
Big fleet of star Destroyers. Why? No body knows where it came from or how. REASONS!
Spoiler:
Well at least they did tell they have been building them. But where they got manpower and resources is another thing...
Spoiler:
Royal Guard, who I am pretty sure are supposed to be immune or at least resistant to the Force are tossed around like squeaky toys. LAUGHABLY BAD.
Spoiler:
Tossing around happened in EP III already. Where the idea they are immune to force has been said?
Spoiler:
Tie Fighters can go light-speed now. For some reason.
Spoiler:
Did they even look different? Don't recall. Different variant with shields and hyperspeed ability isn't all that weird and unique. But would be nice to have some visual cue they are not same class anymore.
Worse than that for me was though since when you can jump freely, with no preparation time inside planet with bloody stuff in front of your face? How did the TLJ hyperspeed ramming work if entering hyperspace in front of solid object doesn't result in anything?
Movie theater at the mall had showings tonight on 3 screens. The neighbor's kid works there and said all but one of them was empty.
He's mad because the theater is required to keep the movie on 3 screens until the end of January. They already told him they are cutting his hours until it's gone.
People were talking in the theater, making fun of the film, and walking out before the end. Someone complained that they were not allowed to use coupons and that meant they could not get a replacement ticket because they didn't like the film.
He watched most of the movie and said it was bad. He complained about all the ghosts in the film, said that made it seem cheap. He complained that the main characters spent most of the movie trying to find each other, then there was this big battle at the end where all these ships just showed up. He said that didn't make sense, but it wasn't as hard as other parts.
Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.
Disney's the second-largest entertainment company on the planet. Special effects being well-done isn't really praise when you're Disney, it's about like saying "I wiped my own ass!" as a 30-year-old adult.
I listened closely for anything interesting in the score. Sorry, it’s just a few nostalgic call backs to the RotJ soundtrack. Everything else was forgettable.
Manchu wrote: I listened closely for anything interesting in the score. Sorry, it’s just a few nostalgic call backs to the RotJ soundtrack. Everything else was forgettable.
Now that you mention it...I don't recall anything about the track. Sheesh.
The score was one of the few things I enjoyed about the film. Dissapointed that Wedge didnt get more than a single line and that we didnt get to see a T-85 on screen.
Dismayed by the rest of it...
The first 40 minutes of the film is non-stop gunshots and fights and running and jumping and so on. It was painful to sit through, I kept finding myself constantly confused as characters would pose questions, and other characters would just magically know the exact answer to said questions. This happens half a dozen times through the film.
Rey just happens to know where she needs to go, because Force.
They did that already in ESB and again in TPM and so on...
3PO can speak Sith. But he can't tell you about it. We'll have to wipe his memory! R2 has a backup! REASONS!
That was one of the few things which actually made sense and was cogently explained. Sith wouldn't want to have any random protocol droid able to read their script, and Palpatine was in position to make that happen.
Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.
Umm...that happened in TFA. In RoS, Rey loses the fight to Ren, until Leia intervenes.
The Death Star fell on some random planet that looks nothing like both Endor or Yavin. No explanation. Because REASONS!
...why should it look like Yavin? Surely a moon size of Endor has room for some oceans too.
Togusa wrote: Tie Fighters can go light-speed now. For some reason.
Think they're like new model. In X-Wing, new TIEs have shields too. Probably First Order, with less bases and Star Destroyers, needed to have its starfighters a bit more independent.
Whole lightspeed-jumping scene was daft, though.
Um. It's literally Return of the Jedi. The entire plot is exactly the same.
Spoiler:
Jedi all but gone. You're our only hope, Mary Sue. Resistance losing. Empire has super weapon of ultimate power. Young Jedi wannabe learns the truth about herself. Emperor does things. Emperor is killed (Again). Super Weapons of Ultimate Power are destroyed in last desperate gamble. Celebration. [No Ewok Music this time, but we did get to see two of the bears watch what looked like an SSD AGAIN get blown up over Endor.] Everyone gets a medal. Hugs all around. Roll Credits.
Sorry you didn't enjoy the movie, and as I said it does have its faults.
As for being exactly the same plot as ROTJ - yes, but only towards the end of the film. For most of it, the film was its own thing and felt more like episodes of Clone Wars and Rebels, which was certainly not the case for Force Awakens. With that film they literally just remade A New Hope.
For example, we were expecting to see the 2nd Death Star to start flying around the galaxy wiping out crusiers and planets, but instead it serves a different purpose.
Apart from being on a desert planet and the skiffs scnee, we weren't subjected to "not-Jabba", "not-Rancor-monster" or "not-great-pit-of-carkoon". In fact some of it was a nod to The Phantom Menace. The underground creature could have been the Rancor, but once again that scene is for a different purpose.
Theres the bit on the snow planet which doesn't fit anything in ROTJ at all.
I have to laugh at how seriously everyone takes these films. I have been a fan since seeing ROTJ as a five year old in 1987. Overall I enjoyed the "Disney" trilogy. Was Rise of Skywalker a perfect film? Far from it. I found it an OK popcorn movie that lolloped along at a fair pace with some great, and some questionable, moments. It has not ruined my childhood. I am still a Star Wars fan. I am not calling for boycott's or the heads of directors or producers. I am not stamping up and down, shouting or creating pointless "social" media crusades.
Increasingly I find that we build up events, days, movies et al in our minds and they usually feel a bit "meh" once all is said and done. They just rarely live up to our expectations. This movie trilogy was largely the same to me. I would loved to have been a kid when these films were released though.
Going to see it tonight. Dressing up in my full Jedi garb. Still trying to avoid spoilers, but skimming through some of the reactions here are abysmal. The expectations are so low, that there's a very real chance that once I've seen it I'll think RoS is the BEST SW movie ever.
Dead serious. It never fails. When I read reviews filled with such loathing and contempt (for big budget movies, at least), I end up walking away from the movie like" Huh, that movie was pretty darn good!" I loved Endgame for the fan service, so if I expect RoS to be similar, I shan't be disappointed
So, thanx, I guess. At least I know my ticket money was well spent before even seeing it
Gotta say I'm surprised by the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes of 76/88% (unverified/verified). I was curious before about the 4 day weekend box office total will be but now I'm really curious. Is the low critic and high audience score the result of the Revenge of the Critics and Return of the Normies?
warboss wrote: Gotta say I'm surprised by the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes of 76/88% (unverified/verified). I was curious before about the 4 day weekend box office total will be but now I'm really curious. Is the low critic and high audience score the result of the Revenge of the Critics and Return of the Normies?
I'm not surprised. This reeks of the opposite of TLJ. Critics LOVED that movie, but the audience score was initially garbage. I'm sure it boils down to what was previously discussed in this thread. Critics 'critique' films and have very low tolerance for fun-popcorn event films with fan-service, while most casual audience goers are looking specifically for fun-popcorn movies and "fans" love fan-service. Heck, I would not be surprised if the Audience score got even hire by the end of the weekend
After watching this film I felt JJ Abrams did what he had to do to fix the horror of Episode 8. I felt like you could watch 7 & 9 and still get a complete arc of this Sequel "Trilogy".
Much like the Force Awakens where JJ did what he had to do to put faith back in to the fan base, JJ once again is forced to try and build trust in the fan base, and I think he does that. He acknowledges and in my view, fixes/retcons? the errors and plot problems with Ep 8. Mainly the Holdo Light speed Maneuver, Reys lineage, and a lot less Rose.
The beginning of this film is rushed a bit as they bounce from planet to planet, but this is necessary to fix episode 8. Basically JJ is getting 2 films to create a trilogy in, as I feel you could skip Ep 8 entirely and still get the story.
There are nods to all three trilogies which either uses references to old locations, characters, or bits of plot to really tie all 9 films together. JJ also answers the key questions he posed for Episode 7 that Ep 8 ignores/changed.
The plot is a little predictable, but its Star Wars, its a Hero's Journey, so you know what to expect. I really like the finale story wise and the central theme of the entire series is finally fulfilled. There are some subtle things that are easy to miss in that regard. I really like what they did with Rey. You do find out the truth about her parents.
As for Kylo, I really liked his arc and felt he was the most fleshed out of all the new Trilogy characters. We also get to learn a bit more about Poe's history which was an interesting twist, and the banter between him and the other characters was enjoyable. Fenn has some new development which was foreshadowed a bit in the prior to films but was a good payoff. We also get a couple new characters (droids, aliens, heroes, villains, and of course Cameos.)
Music is great as always. There are a couple fantastic cinematography shots, the wave scene reminded me of Interstellar a bit, and of course there is the "WOW" scene like with the death star explodes.
I did not notice any direct tie ins to the Mandalorian series, so if you haven't watched that it won’t matter and it won’t get spoiled. It’s possible there was something small I missed. There are indeed some nostalgia moments in the film and one near the end that brings closure to a fan favorite character from the original trilogy that was completely unexpected but enjoyable.
There are no End Credit scenes so you don't need to stay, but its interesting to see all the famous people that are storm troopers in this film. The list is quite long.
Galef wrote: Going to see it tonight. Dressing up in my full Jedi garb. Still trying to avoid spoilers, but skimming through some of the reactions here are abysmal.
The expectations are so low, that there's a very real chance that once I've seen it I'll think RoS is the BEST SW movie ever.
Dead serious. It never fails. When I read reviews filled with such loathing and contempt (for big budget movies, at least), I end up walking away from the movie like" Huh, that movie was pretty darn good!" I loved Endgame for the fan service, so if I expect RoS to be similar, I shan't be disappointed
So, thanx, I guess. At least I know my ticket money was well spent before even seeing it
-
That would maximize your experience then, which would actually be a good thing.
Full disclosure: I am not going to see it, as my movie experiences now are eclusive to a dinner theater and include stop at the in house bar, so we're talking $100+ a pop and are reserved to things we really want to see. So having said that, if this is something you are interested in, by all my ignore the naysayers and see it regardless. They are not you. Go and have fun!
Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.
When does that happen ? IIRC
Spoiler:
He beats her, quite hardly tbh, until his mother calls him and distracts him (he believed her dead IIRC) and then she kills him cowardly.
The first 40 minutes of the film is non-stop gunshots and fights and running and jumping and so on. It was painful to sit through, I kept finding myself constantly confused as characters would pose questions, and other characters would just magically know the exact answer to said questions. This happens half a dozen times through the film.
Rey just happens to know where she needs to go, because Force.
They did that already in ESB and again in TPM and so on...
3PO can speak Sith. But he can't tell you about it. We'll have to wipe his memory! R2 has a backup! REASONS!
That was one of the few things which actually made sense and was cogently explained. Sith wouldn't want to have any random protocol droid able to read their script, and Palpatine was in position to make that happen.
Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.
Umm...that happened in TFA. In RoS, Rey loses the fight to Ren, until Leia intervenes.
The Death Star fell on some random planet that looks nothing like both Endor or Yavin. No explanation. Because REASONS!
...why should it look like Yavin? Surely a moon size of Endor has room for some oceans too.
Togusa wrote: Tie Fighters can go light-speed now. For some reason.
Think they're like new model. In X-Wing, new TIEs have shields too. Probably First Order, with less bases and Star Destroyers, needed to have its starfighters a bit more independent.
Whole lightspeed-jumping scene was daft, though.
Spoiler:
It was a completely different planet. It wasn't Endor and it wasn't Yavin. And the entire point of TIEs is that they're cheap and only good in numbers. When you "Hurr durr mah technology" them into being equal to X-Wings, you might as well just scrap the entire point of them being TIEs. The whole start of the movie seemed to be designed to make it too hard for the viewer to question anything, constantly moving from scene to scene, battle to battle with little time to think.
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warboss wrote: Gotta say I'm surprised by the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes of 76/88% (unverified/verified). I was curious before about the 4 day weekend box office total will be but now I'm really curious. Is the low critic and high audience score the result of the Revenge of the Critics and Return of the Normies?
I'm not. There were a lot of people online saying that it was their duty to "combat trolls" by leaving good reviews. All most all of the major news outlets have articles up proclaiming that if you don't like this film, it's because your a white incel that hates blacks and women! It couldn't possibly be because the fill was duller than a blunt hammer and poorly acted and written. Nope, we're all just horrible Nazis!
[spoiler]Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.
When does that happen ? IIRC
Spoiler:
He beats her, quite hardly tbh, until his mother calls him and distracts him (he believed her dead IIRC) and then she kills him cowardly.
[/spoiler]
I dunno, she was easily defeating him in the battle scene, I don't think the contact from Leia had much to do with him losing. Seemed pointless to me.
Togusa is right and it's actually a very worrying trend not to be able to criticize anything, especially brand and products, without being labelled far right trolls. It's beginning quite obvious thanks to SW as there are so many white knights to protect the new trilogy
Edit: the more I think about it the more the light speed stuff at the beginning is a total non sense. It's the OPPOSITE effect of TLJ
and they act like if they changed dimension like going through the warp of smth while they just go faster. Total gak.
Manchu wrote:Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.
Pretty much what Manchu said.
I will say it was probably more enjoyable to watch than TLJ, but even now I am wondering "but was it really?" It was at least better than the leaks made it sound
Manchu wrote:Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.
Pretty much what Manchu said.
I will say it was probably more enjoyable to watch than TLJ, but even now I am wondering "but was it really?" It was at least better than the leaks made it sound
Spoiler:
while being exactly what the leaks said
but it still wasnt good.
Yes, totally agree on the lack of drama at supposedly dramatic points. There are three big ones that I can remember that fell especially flat.
Spoiler:
Chewie's "death" on the transport (admittedly this was ruined for me by the trailer as I knew we had not yet seen the scene of Finn, Chewy and Poe running and shooting through the command destroyer". Kylie's original "death" and then Rey's passing. All were u-turned in a matter of seconds with barely a chance for breath let alone thought.
Manchu wrote:Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.
Pretty much what Manchu said.
I will say it was probably more enjoyable to watch than TLJ, but even now I am wondering "but was it really?" It was at least better than the leaks made it sound
Spoiler:
while being exactly what the leaks said
but it still wasnt good.
Yes, totally agree on the lack of drama at supposedly dramatic points. There are three big ones that I can remember that fell especially flat.
Spoiler:
Chewie's "death" on the transport (admittedly this was ruined for me by the trailer as I knew we had not yet seen the scene of Finn, Chewy and Poe running and shooting through the command destroyer". Kylie's original "death" and then Rey's passing. All were u-turned in a matter of seconds with barely a chance for breath let alone thought.
The first of your spoilers is spoiled by the simple fact that
Spoiler:
they show you that there were 2 First Order Shuttles
Also the C-3P0 drama had no reason to be undone, but here they go undoing it. Cant actually have stakes for the Heroes.
It was a completely different planet. It wasn't Endor and it wasn't Yavin.
Spoiler:
I'm fairly sure they explicitly say it's "in the Endor System". Aka, it might not necessarily be the Forest Moon of Endor, where the old Imperial shield station was, but any other celestial body orbiting the gas giant.
According to Wookiepedia, there are nine moons orbiting Endor, one of which being the Forest Moon (in Ep.VI), and another being Kef Bir (where the Death Star's wreckage ends up in Ep.IX).
Spoiler:
He beats her, quite hardly tbh, until his mother calls him and distracts him (he believed her dead IIRC) and then she kills him cowardly.
I dunno, she was easily defeating him in the battle scene, I don't think the contact from Leia had much to do with him losing. Seemed pointless to me.
Spoiler:
They seemed pretty even for most of it. Kylo was definitely in control early though, not even needing his lightsaber when Rey was swinging around at him in Palp's throne room.
However, Rey tires out after some time, and Kylo easily has the upper hand. She's literally on the floor exhausted, with Kylo about to swing his lightsaber down on her. Only Leia calling his true name stops him in his tracks, and Rey stabs Kylo when he's distracted, and blow that would have been fatal.
Manchu wrote: Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.
Just as Benicio Del Toro's character in TLJ explained to all of us.
Nothing matters int eh Star Wars Universe, and nothing lasts. One day you shoot at them, and the next they shoot at you.... and for what!
Pretty much sums up everything wrong with the new trilogy to me.
Now, Star Wars has never been a massive hit in China but the downward trajectory of box office totals seems to have steepened in the mainline trilogy with ROS from the admittedly very early box office opening numbers. It's on track to do numbers closer to the spin off Solo... a movie whose box office take was so low (pun intended) that it was pulled from theaters in China after two weeks.
Dynas wrote: After watching this film I felt JJ Abrams did what he had to do to fix the horror of Episode 8. I felt like you could watch 7 & 9 and still get a complete arc of this Sequel "Trilogy".
Much like the Force Awakens where JJ did what he had to do to put faith back in to the fan base, JJ once again is forced to try and build trust in the fan base, and I think he does that. He acknowledges and in my view, fixes/retcons? the errors and plot problems with Ep 8. Mainly the Holdo Light speed Maneuver, Reys lineage, and a lot less Rose.
Yeah see, for me this was a problem, plot 'reveals' were lame and hackneyed, basically fan fiction level and something which we have seen done before in old EU stories, and done better. Especially as JJ seemed hell-bent to reverse everything what happened in TLJ especially as not only there was no foreshadowing whatsoever for the plot, it flat out contradicted lots of what happened in Episodes 7 & 8.
Earlier I defended Kennedy for her role as a producer for the series, well now I have to take back much of what I said. Before I was under impression that there was some kind of overall plot arch for the series and Kennedy was only letting different directors have a go with it. But now it is obvious that they never made any kind of plot outline for the trilogy, Kennedy literally just hired different directors to write and direct a Star Wars movie and did nothing to coordinate the whole thing. Basically she was 'producing' the series in same way Mr Burns was 'coaching' his baseball team. "Hey you, go hit a home run!". It is true that Lucas made lots of stuff up as he went along and improvised a lot, however he did have overall vision in his mind all the time. KK never had anything like that, he just hired JJA for the series because he had done such a bang-up job with Star Trek Also, given how much RoS ripped off from EU stories, particularly Dark Empire, so much for "not having any source material" for the new movie!
Galef wrote: Going to see it tonight. Dressing up in my full Jedi garb.
I wish I had thought to bring a costume or some kind of disguise when I went to go see it. I was embarrassed and I think I may have been seen at the cinema.
I've seen several reviews so far, and it seems to bear out what I expected. About half didn't like it with varying degrees of vehemence (Shad being the strongest so far), and the other half like it moderately well, but generally with some reservation over various plot holes.
Being liked moderately well by the people who DO like it generally doesn't bring in billion dollar sales. So I'm standing by my prediction of quite soft sales for a main sequence movie. More Solo than TFA.
It'll still be profitable, of course; lacking the extra expenses of reshoots Solo brought to the bottom line. But the profits will not be what Disney was hoping for when they coughed up several BILLION dollars for the property.
Overall it was ok I suppose but also one of those films where after you see it the more things bug you. It felt like two movies plots mashed together, which I think goes to the bigger problem with these new movies as whole which is that there really wasn't a road map for the story. For example the revelation of Rey's heritage doesn't feel authentic or organic. It feels like when they made her character they wanted a mystery but didn't have a resolution for it and realized at the last minute they needed an answer and were like "oh I guess it is Palpatine?"
Anyone else annoyed that only Rey gets to see and hear Force Ghosts but Ben Solo doesn't? I thought at the end Anakin's Force would make an appearance, especially once Kylo turned from the Dark Side, but nope only Rey gets that privilege.
As an addendum to that point about Rey hearing Force Ghosts, Anakin's quote wound me up.
He said something along the lines of "Rey, restore the balance, like I did!"
But... Palpatine's alive, with a seemingly BIGGER armada all armed with mini-Death Star lasers, and everything achieved by Anakin's sacrifice led to absolutely nothing, beyond bringing Han and Leia together, inspiring their son to commit mass atrocities in his name, and later have a change of heart. What balance did he restore, exactly?
As an addendum to that point about Rey hearing Force Ghosts, Anakin's quote wound me up.
He said something along the lines of "Rey, restore the balance, like I did!"
But... Palpatine's alive, with a seemingly BIGGER armada all armed with mini-Death Star lasers, and everything achieved by Anakin's sacrifice led to absolutely nothing, beyond bringing Han and Leia together, inspiring their son to commit mass atrocities in his name, and later have a change of heart. What balance did he restore, exactly?
To be fair, Star Wars has been gaking on that concept of the films' plot since before the prequels XD
I just saw it. And I like it. Its no End Game but it was fun and emotional and certainly worth the ticket price (honestly the only cost benefit analysis that should go into seeing a movie).
Spoiler:
I completely agree that it was two movies smashed together though. I feel like what was intended was for the 8th movie to have Rey and Kylo chasing each other and fighting. With Kylo becoming Ben again in the final act. Then ep.9 would have been the pair of them fighting to stop Palpatine. Instead this played out in a single movie.
I really would have liked to see Ben Solo more and that is my biggest issue with how it all finished.
With all that being said I am glad we are done with the Skywalker story. Disney should now move forward with making their own story. What that is? No idea. But with Feige moving in I'm sure it will at least be fun.
Personally I begrudge the time lost to a bad film more than the money. Well, that and having to endure a movie theater, with the uncomfortable seats, trash and the noisy audiences.
That was literally one of the worst films I've ever seen. Stuff just happens because reasons, everything meant to be dramatic either falls flat or is hilarious or both, and the whole thing just comes off as this totally uninspired mess that only exists because apparently star wars is a thing that must go on forever.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: We can’t see it until the second weekend. I hope by then that my expectations will be low enough that I’ll enjoy (some aspect of) the movie.
Somehow I’m more excited to see Cats for pure garbage fire value than the Final Star Wars Ever.
Final? As if. As long as it makes money disney will keep on making 'em. And sequels showed you can make money just copying previous movies.
Nothing in ix makes further sequels impossible either. Ending is same as vi so since vi didn't finish up neither does this. Empire can be restored same way, bad guys can come back again. Only lnconvenience might be palpatine actor dying of old age but hey recast is always option
I enjoyed it well enough. Didn’t have the same emotional response that Endgame did, but I found it nicely entertaining. Quite liked the spy reveal. Need to let it simmer a bit and decide how I feel about the story.
The final battle. It was really cool and tense up until Lando arrived with hundreds, if not thousands of reinforcements.
Then we, well, I, didn’t get to see enough of that brawl. And I’d have liked more screen time for the gathered fleet, so I could see what ships are there.
Also glad my suspicion was correct and the threat of ‘Action 3PO’ was a deliberate misdirection.
Also glad my suspicion was correct and the threat of ‘Action 3PO’ was a deliberate misdirection.
Spoiler:
Indeed, but 3PO and never been funnier or more endearing than in this one.
I also found the chemistry between Fin, Poe and Rey to be awesome.
If I had to pin down anything I was disappointed by, it would be the lack of manifestations of Force Ghost Anakin and Obiwan. The final confrontation between Rey and Palps might have been just that much better if Hayden Christensen made a physical appearance to help finally take him down.
Otherwise this was a good, enjoyable Star Wars movie. Certainly the best of the sequel trilogy
I don't understand any of the comments saying that this was a piece of garbage "worst film ever waste of time".
Like seriously, did I watch the same movie? Sure some things were predictable, but how is that bad?
Sometimes I get the impression that people are missing the point and looking for some deeper meaning.
Star Wars is SUPPOSED to be a mythological type story of good v evil, full of tropes and archetypes. And space magic. Mostly for kids. Enjoy it for what it is and stop expecting Shakespeare.
Well that was a waste of money, not TLJ bad granted but bloody awful, it fails on almost every level to be a coherent story and you can see the damage TLJ did to the series all over this train wreck.
Voss wrote: Personally I begrudge the time lost to a bad film more than the money. Well, that and having to endure a movie theater, with the uncomfortable seats, trash and the noisy audiences.
You need to find a better theater. I watched it in a plush recliner with room to stretch my legs out to the fullest in a clean and completely silent theater.
Voss wrote: Personally I begrudge the time lost to a bad film more than the money. Well, that and having to endure a movie theater, with the uncomfortable seats, trash and the noisy audiences.
You need to find a better theater. I watched it in a plush recliner with room to stretch my legs out to the fullest in a clean and completely silent theater.
My theater experiences haven't varied from when I was a kid, no matter the country, state or city: Dim, dingy, and muttering.
Biggest difference I've ever experienced was the presence of sugared popcorn and beer to vary the smells slightly.
Also glad my suspicion was correct and the threat of ‘Action 3PO’ was a deliberate misdirection.
Spoiler:
Indeed, but 3PO and never been funnier or more endearing than in this one.
I also found the chemistry between Fin, Poe and Rey to be awesome.
If I had to pin down anything I was disappointed by, it would be the lack of manifestations of Force Ghost Anakin and Obiwan. The final confrontation between Rey and Palps might have been just that much better if Hayden Christensen made a physical appearance to help finally take him down.
Otherwise this was a good, enjoyable Star Wars movie. Certainly the best of the sequel trilogy
I don't understand any of the comments saying that this was a piece of garbage "worst film ever waste of time".
Like seriously, did I watch the same movie? Sure some things were predictable, but how is that bad?
Sometimes I get the impression that people are missing the point and looking for some deeper meaning.
Star Wars is SUPPOSED to be a mythological type story of good v evil, full of tropes and archetypes. And space magic. Mostly for kids. Enjoy it for what it is and stop expecting Shakespeare.
-
There's a pretty cavernous gap between "having some standards" and "expecting Shakespeare" man. And this "hurr durr s'for kids innit" line is getting really tiresome - do kids not deserve quality stories, well told? And just because a story is simple does not mean it cannot also have deeper meaning, as evidenced by, you know, Star Wars; the OT films were not complicated or intricate or "artsy", but there were themes and (very slightly)subtext beyond the surface level, that's why they're classics and people still enjoy watching them today.
Everything I'm hearing points to this being a standard issue JJ movie, but with all his usual problems(Ludicrous Speed pacing, everything except the big setpieces feeling like they were half-arsed chores that he just wanted out of the way so he could get to said setpieces, moments that are supposed to be emotional instead either come off as unearned or cloying, or else are neutered by the amphetamine-fuelled plotting speeding past without giving them room to breathe) turned up to eleven because he's trying to tell the story of two movies at once thanks to TLJ. Nothing in that says you're not allowed to enjoy the result, but neither does that enjoyment require you to defend or excuse the flaws with trite "pfff, it's just fiction bruh, stop taking stuff so seeeeeeeeeerious" nonsense.
I would agree as far as story goes that kids movie doesn't mean dumb movie. Endgame wasn't really all that complex but it was good (at least to me), Pixar makes movies primarily for kids but they are emotionally complex.
I've personally never found any Stars Wars movie to be great. I've found pretty much all of them fun and worth their time but never great. So RoS being kind of highlight reel of Star Wars was pretty acceptable.
I personally think the "final" trilogy for the Skywalker saga was something that had to be made in order for something new to be done with the IP. So hopefully something new gets done now.
I do like the juxtapose of the messages between TLJ and RoS.
TLJ seemed to claim that even a nobody can be important
While RoS seems to claim that it doesn't matter where you come from, you can choose your path.
Both messages are good, but I think RoS is better/more powerful
And side note, rather saying Star Wars are kids movies, I should have said they are meant to be easily understood by kids. So archetypes are rarely overly complex. Some people might claim that to be lazy but I find it a good way to be timeless.
This is more to do with my experience in X-Wing and the frankly superb Rogue Squadron series of games.
When Rey is piloting Luke’s X-Wing to go stab up Palpatine? Her S-Foils are deployed.
Also, Ben Solo ( for that is who arrives at that point) found a TIE in decent condition. Though it’s my understanding pre-First Order TIE’s didn’t have hyperdrive. If they’d just made it a TIE Defender, I’d have been stupid excite.
But minor issues. Nothing the average cinema goer is gonna know nor care about
The idea that a film for kids can't also be meaningful and have themes beyond "red light = bad" is opposed by plenty of amazing media for kids that transcend beyond "it's for kids".
The final battle. It was really cool and tense up until Lando arrived with hundreds, if not thousands of reinforcements.
Then we, well, I, didn’t get to see enough of that brawl. And I’d have liked more screen time for the gathered fleet, so I could see what ships are there.
Also glad my suspicion was correct and the threat of ‘Action 3PO’ was a deliberate misdirection.
The only thing I find disappointing about this post is I still don't understand what a petal is, or why you would call me one.
I saw it yesterday, loved it. It did feel like a lot was shoved in due to 'issues' with the previous movie and i would have liked slightly longer runtime and more focus on some things, but it was really enjoyable. Its the first movie of the sequel trilogy I want to see again to take in more details.
I'm still a bit annoyed though with the general story direction they took with the sequels. I (like i think many others did) would have liked to see more jedi knights about, rather than having lukes jedi order ending in failure, and also would have liked to have seen more on the Republic and not have it swept away with one superweapon shot mid-first movie!
What exactly is wrong with fan service? People who’ve followed the respective series through thick and thin getting a cinematic thank-you for ultimately making it all possible?
Fan service is more or less the idea that a narrative is being derailed or interrupted explicitly and solely for the purpose of doing something that serves no real narrative purpose or is otherwise forced in in order to please fans. It speaks to a fundamental lack of artistic integrity as its a conscious decision to do something not because the story calls for it but because it will generate an artificial emotional response in the audience. A well written and made narrative/story has no need for fan service, because the natural development and conclusion of the narrative will be in and of itself satisfying without the introduction of outside elements designed to elicit that response.
SamusDrake wrote: My hat off to JJ for not falling into the same trap as he did with The Force Awakens which was remaking A New Hope.
Did you miss that its a remake of Return of the Jedi? No, its not a shot for shot remake like The Force Awakens was, and thats good (really good actually, parts of this film are perhaps the most compelling and high concept we've ever seen from Star Wars), but the part that matters most - the ending - is the same ending (in the meta sense at least) is the same ending we already had in Return of the Jedi.
Otherwise, a good star wars movie and end to the saga itself.
The Saga didn't need an ending, it already had one in Return of the Jedi. There really wasn't any further story that explicitly needed to be told in the saga, and The Force Awakens only (weakly) enabled a story in the sequel trilogy by ignoring narrative and character development from the Original and Prequel Trilogy, seemingly for the sole purpose of allowing the sequel trilogy to attain the ending that we *thought* we already had in Return of the Jedi.
Spoiler:
-The Rise of Skywalker gives us the same conclusion we alrady had in Return of the Jedi - the (same exact) evil Emperor and his dark cult is overthrown and killed (again), his evil Empire is militarily defeated (if not outright destroyed), the young Jedi disciple overcomes their inner demons to become a true Jedi Knight destined to train the next generation of new, presumably better, Jedi, and a new era of peace and prosperity is ushered in. Sure there are minor details that are different, particularly in terms of who that Jedi is, etc. but in the grand scheme of things those small details are ultimately irrelvant in the narrative sense. The Force Awakens reversed the character development and narrative progress made in Return of the Jedi seemingly so that The Rise of Skywalker could give us the same ending with different new and improved Disney-approved characters instead. We spent 5 years and 3 films essentially watching the narrative travel in a big circle to end up right back in the same status quo we had following the release of The Return of the Jedi in 1983. This is not the "satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker Saga" that was being advertised - the Skywalker Saga didn't need a satisfying conclusion because it already had that in Return of the Jedi that wrapped up everything that needed to be wrapped up from the previous 5 films (even if 3 of those films weren't made until years later) - instead this is the third film in a trilogy that served only to act as a soft reboot of the setting and the narrative. There will no doubt be sequels to this movie, perhaps they will not receive the honor of an episodic title, or maybe they will, but I have no doubt we will see many more EU/Legends stories brought forward and reimagined with Finn, Rey, Poe and others filling the same roles that Luke, Han, and Leia once did.
-On that note, I'm not sure that I can find anything satisfying about the implications involved in having a descendant of Sheev Palpatine outlive the Skywalker bloodline, even if she does take up their name and renounce her heritage. This is the "Doesn't matter, had sex" victory of the Star Wars saga, and Palpatine is exactly the kind of guy who would get his jollies knowing that the Skywalkers went extinct while his own bloodline gets to continue on, even if his granddaughter does pretend that he doesn't exist. To me, thats unsatisfying.
-The Rise of Skywalker solidifies Rey as a textbook "Mary Sue", not because shes "too powerful", not because she "never fails", but because she gets to do all the cool things, have all the cool character traits, possess all the cool gear and equipment, have the cool backstory, have all the coolest friends, have the cool legacy, etc. Just off the top of my head, she gets to keep the Millennium Falcon, she inherits Luke and Leias lightsabers (plus builds her own), she gets BB-8 from Poe apparently, presumably she also inherits R2 and C-3PO, she gets to fly Lukes X-Wing, she gets to kill Palpatine (for real this time, sorry Anakin), she's descended *from* Palpatine so she gets to claim descent from one of the most powerful and most evil force users in history while being an absolute good-hearted hero herself, she's apparently a second Chosen One, she gets to re-establish the Jedi Order and train the next generation of better Jedi, etc. In the process she completely upstages the protagonists of the previous two trilogies by accomplishing what they did not or could not (and in many cases, accomplishing what we thought they had accomplished but surprisingly found out that they didn't). Rey is basically the character that I - and every other kid on the block - pretended to be when we were kids playing pretend or writing our gakky fanfic, the character that is equal parts Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Princess Leia, Lando Calrissian, etc, the character that gets mentored by your heroes and is best friends with them and wins their admiration and respsect. She is the ultimate wish-fulfillment character, and literally everything that Paula Smith railed against when she created the concept of Mary Sue. An important distinction needs to be made here - this is not the characters fault, its the writers.
-Palpatines return is out of left field - there is no real hint, lead-up, or build-up to it in the previous two films (mainly because, per JJs own admission, they didn't entirely figure that part out until later), or for that matter any of the other films beforehand. Thats not to say it doesn't work (actually I found the Palpatine segments to be the most compelling, dark, and sinister looks at the setting thus far in the franchise - if JJ/RJ had given us this from the get-go then I think this would have made for a masterwork trilogy that would have been far less divisive and far more intereting than the one we received), but it needed more of a connection than just repeating the "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural..." quote from Revenge of the Sith. Its actually ironic that this is the path they chose to go down considering Kathleen Kennedy tried to tell us that they didn't have any source material to work from, its a riff on a classic EU/Legends narrative, one which many EU fans explicitly hated and were glad to see gone.
From a narrative standpoint, Palpatines return has many problems. At the time those EU novels were published, before the prequels and the introduction of Anakin Skywalkers character arc, the Chosen One prophecy, and the idea of his redemption, etc. bringing Palpatine back made some sense, it was actually an idea spawned from George Lucas's own notes and outline for one of the possible story arcs for the sequel trilogy (say what you will about The Maker, but I owe the man much of my childhood and early youth. Maintaining the integrity of his vision will always be of paramount importance to me and one of the key measures of the quality of any narrative for me), and would have served as a reasonable continuation of Lukes own character arc - some people like to dispute this, as overcoming his inner darkness was a key part of the his character arc in the OT, however his temporary fall to the dark side in the EU was a result of his hubris, he intentionally chose to serve the Clone Emperor thinking that he could remain pure and destroy the dark side from within, but was overcome by it regardless because its corrupting influence was more than what he was able to handle. In any case, after the prequel trilogy, a "return of Palpatine" arc becomes problematic as Anakin is the Chosen One who restored balance by killing Palpatine (and in turn Lukes narrative arc also takes on slightly different importance, as his overcoming his inner darkness becomes Anakins legacy in atonement for "the sins of the father" - that isn't entirely relevant to *this* film, but it is relevant to other films in the trilogy).
Beyond that, the decision to bring Palpatine back also has implications for the prequels - it was long understod that Palpatine was using the story of Darth Plagueis as bait to lure Anakin to the dark side with the promise that he would be able to save others, specifically Padme, from death. It was also long understood that on some level, it was a lie. Palpatine tells Anakin, "Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep." - the apprentice, of course, is Palpatine himself (confirmed within canon) - but later on he tells him "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." Clearly both statements cannot be true, which means one of them is a lie, and it has been long understood that the lie was that Sidious did *not* know how to cheat death (and there is a possible argument that Plagueis was likewise unable to do so, hence why Sidious was able to kill him), which is why he needed Anakin in the first place - as he was basically force-jesus, he would be able to accomplish what Sidious could not. Anakins defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan robbed Palpatine of this asset, as Vader would never be as strong in the force as he was before, which is why Palpatine needed to turn Luke to the dark side as Vaders replacement - Luke was strong enough to accomplish what Vader could not, but Luke never turned, so Palpatine would have been completely denied the means to achieve his goal.
Bringing Palpatine back from the dead, therefore, continues the complaint that many fans (myself included) had in that the sequel films (primarily The Force Awakens, but also The Rise of Skywalker) do not honor or respect the legacy of the original and prequel trilogies by reversing or ignring both plot/narrative and character development. I suspect the reason George didn't appear at the Rise of Skywalker premier is precisely because Palpatine was brought back in the film, which was something we know George was vehemently against per his own statements. Ian Mcdiarmid has also mentioned in interviews that he approached George on the subject on at least one occasion, and he wouldn't even entertain the topic, saying Palpatine was very very dead and would not be coming back. Thus, my take on it is that any restoration of Palpatine is, in essence, a direct violation of the established narrative and weakens (if not outright destroys) the significance of many of the events in the previous two trilogies.
-By extension, in some ways the events of The Rise of Skywalker has implications for Anakins story - I'm still not sure if those implications are good or bad, but in essence Ben giving his life force over to her to bring her back from the dead raises some questions about Anakin's own fall to the dark side. Is it made more tragic, because he didn't have to slaughter a temple full of younglings to save Padme if he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for her instead? Or is it made pointless, because as it turns out Sidious was wrong and any Jedi could gain the knowledge to save the ones he loves from dying without turning to the dark side?
-As a quick aside, it really sucks for Qui-Gon that Obi-Wan apparently didnt know how to use the force to heal people.
-The film also continues JJ Abrams "shrinking" of the Star Wars galaxy through his abuses of hyperspace (sidenote: a "People for the Ethical Treatment of Hyperspace" type meme campaign might be fun). Early on in A New Hope we are told "Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" Early on in The Rise of Skywalker we are treated to the concept of "hyperspace-skipping" which is basically just random jumps in random directions for random distances, which sees the Falcon hop through a bunch of random environments, often in far-too-close proximity to something that should destroy them. For a long time one of the tents of hyperspace travel was that you can't jump too close to a planet because it casts a "mass shadow" into hyperspace which will cause a hyperspace collision destroying one or both objects. this is still suppsed to be technically true in canon (and was in fact a rule established by George Lucas early on because he realized that it would lead to a potential can of worms in the narrative sense to allow it to be used freely from anywhere at any time), yet JJ Abrams continues to ignore it. What then, was the point of running the Trade Federation blockade in The Phantom Menace if Amidala and co could have jumped to lightspeed from Naboos atmosphere? What was the point of those Rebel Transports having to risk destruction by Star Destroyers while escaping from Hoth if they could have just jumped from Hoths atmosphere? What was the point of the countless other canonical intances where a ship has to run the gauntlet through space to make it to or from a planet while under fire when they could just as easily jump to/from a planets atmosphere. Everyone complains about The Holdo Maneuver from TLJ making other stories problematic (which JJ Abrams thankfully addresses in TROS with a "Thats a one in one million probability of success" throwaway line), maybe they should be complaining about this one too.
-That being said, everything about the Emperor and Exogol was amazing both visually and thematically. I hate that the Emperors reanimation presents a narrative challenge to the rest of the saga (maybe it would have worked better if it was Plagueis?), and I hate that it was a last minute insert into the trilogy. If only this is what they had lead off with in The Force Awakens. I definitely wanted to explore this planet and the idea of a broken Sith corpse on alchemical life support further.
-The main duel on the Death Star ruins is incredible. Its the most realistic sword fight in the entire franchise, lacking the flashiness and unnecessary embellishment of the prequel duels, and instead opting for the slower paced battles of the original trilogy, with better choreography and better trained actors in an incredible snd dramatic environment.
For example, we were expecting to see the 2nd Death Star to start flying around the galaxy wiping out crusiers and planets, but instead it serves a different purpose.
Spoiler:
Thats exactly what we got though. Instead of one really big ship though we get hundreds (if not thousands) of smaller ones (fun fact, they are "Xyston-class Star Destroyers, that look almost exactly like Imperial I-class Star Destroyers but are about 800 meters longer) capable of doing the same thing. Its basically the distributed/cloud computing equivalent of the Death Star.
After watching this film I felt JJ Abrams did what he had to do to fix the horror of Episode 8.
Funny, watching The Last Jedi I felt like Rian Johnson did what he had to do to fix the horror of Episode 7.Even if The Last Jedi sucked, its a shame that the direction he took the narrative didn't stick, it would have been way more interesting if JJ Abrams had concluded *that* film instead of his gakky OT reboot.
JJ also answers the key questions he posed for Episode 7 that Ep 8 ignores/changed.
Episode 8 did answer them. Per JJ Abrams own admission he didnt have a strong sense of where the story was going to go at the time he wrote and filmed The Force Awakens. He literally threw out a bunch of mystery boxes for the sole purpose of someone else answering them. Rian Johnson was smart not to have them open up to reveal the obvious answers that fans expected - it would have been a gakky movie and everyone would have hated it anyway (because the truth is people don't know what they want, and what they think they want is often not what they actually want), unfortunately this fanbase spent too much time drinking its own gakky-fan-theory-kool-aid and was disappointed when their expectations didn't match reality.
Togusa - a lot of your criticisms are explained in the film or elsewhere -
Spoiler:
First Order TIE fighters have had hyperdrives since The Force Awakens, non-film canon makes it clear that this was because The First Order identified it as a military shortcoming of The Empire.
The planet the Death Star wreckage ends up on is in the Endor system (this is explained in the film), its one of the other 9 or 10 moons around the gas giant Endor, makes perfect sense in that case that wreckage and debris would have ended up there - while the piece of the Death Star that ended up on the planet was by my estimation far too large, the station was far from "vaporized". And Kylo absolutely was beating Rey in that duel, he forced her saber down to the ground with his on top, she was in the position of weakness and at that point in the film I was like "how the feth does he not end up killing Rey right here, right now" - thats when Leia comes in and he drops his guard and she gets up and stabs him. Its actually, in my opinion, the best and most realistic lightsaber duel in the entire saga.
Earlier I defended Kennedy for her role as a producer for the series, well now I have to take back much of what I said. Before I was under impression that there was some kind of overall plot arch for the series and Kennedy was only letting different directors have a go with it. But now it is obvious that they never made any kind of plot outline for the trilogy, Kennedy literally just hired different directors to write and direct a Star Wars movie and did nothing to coordinate the whole thing. Basically she was 'producing' the series in same way Mr Burns was 'coaching' his baseball team. "Hey you, go hit a home run!". It is true that Lucas made lots of stuff up as he went along and improvised a lot, however he did have overall vision in his mind all the time. KK never had anything like that, he just hired JJA for the series because he had done such a bang-up job with Star Trek Also, given how much RoS ripped off from EU stories, particularly Dark Empire, so much for "not having any source material" for the new movie!
This. The other possibility is that there was a plan, which Rian faithfully executed on, but the backlash resulted in them scrapping those plans and changing them to deliver something seemingly more palatable.
lacking the extra expenses of reshoots Solo brought to the bottom line.
The Rise of Skywalker also had reshoots.
But the profits will not be what Disney was hoping for when they coughed up several BILLION dollars for the property.
Eh, the purchase has already paid for itself. Disney paid $4.05 billion, between Solo, Rogue One, The Force Awakens, and The Last Jedi they have made $4.8 billion. The Rise of Skywalker is going to more than pay for itself (as have all the films), even if it "flops", so at this point it doesn't really matter because TRoS will push it even further into the black.
It feels like when they made her character they wanted a mystery but didn't have a resolution for it and realized at the last minute they needed an answer and were like "oh I guess it is Palpatine?"
They did have an answer to it - she was descended from nobody important. I don't understand the fanbases insistence that the characters relationships must be incestuous (not in the literal sense, but in the sense that outside characters not related to the established characters within the setting cannot be introduced), you may have not liked it, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.
Sgt_Smudge:
Spoiler:
He said something along the lines of "Rey, restore the balance, like I did!"
But... Palpatine's alive, with a seemingly BIGGER armada all armed with mini-Death Star lasers, and everything achieved by Anakin's sacrifice led to absolutely nothing, beyond bringing Han and Leia together, inspiring their son to commit mass atrocities in his name, and later have a change of heart. What balance did he restore, exactly?
"The prophecy never said that the balance would be restored permanently, herp derp" seems to be the general response from its defenders.
Disney should now move forward with making their own story. What that is? No idea.
Given the way things go in TRoS, Im betting that the stories moving forward are going to look a lot like the old EU stories that Disney binned (and totally didn't crib from with TRoS, because yknow according to Kathleen Kennedy there wasn't any source material to work from for this movie...), just replace Han/Luke/Leia with the new younger cast of this trilogy. In terms of the broader setting, its now in the same place that it was when Return of the Jedi ended, so plenty of room for stories about rogue First Order warlords, dark side cults, establishing a new Republic, etc.
TLJ seemed to claim that even a nobody can be important
While RoS seems to claim that it doesn't matter where you come from, you can choose your path.
Both messages are good, but I think RoS is better/more powerful
Maybe I'm being cynical, but ROS message seems to be more than you can choose your own path as long as you're important enough for it to matter.
Regarding Palpatine's and how that affect the chosen one prophecy:
Spoiler:
Anakin really did defeat the Sith, but Palps is a cheater basically. He very well may have known he was going to be defeated and therefore had a contingency plan.
I think if Hayden was cool enough to reprise his role for a voice over, he may have also been cool enough to make a physical appearance as a ghost.
If he, Luke, Obiwan played by Ewan McGregor and Yoda physically manifested behind Rey at the climax, this would have been more powerful (albeit just another fan service piece for haters to complain about).
Kinda like the scene in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire just after Voldie returns
This IMO could have given more context to the chosen one prophecy. Maybe even turning Anakin into the "choosing" one as he selects Rey to be his successor to finally destroy all the Sith
Given that this film establishes that Force ghosts are able to directly interact with and manipulate physical reality (which I believe is a first), I don't really see any reason why force ghost anakin couldn't have just shown up and killed Palpatine directly. More interesting though, would have been if while Rey is blocking Sidious force lightning the ghosts of Jedi past show up and use some sort of ghostly force power to destroy Palpatine once and for all or something, would have avoided the confusion that many seem to have with how Rey killed Palpatine without being possessed by him like he claimed she would be if she had executed him (this is more a problem with the audience than the movie IMO, as I dont believe Rey actually attacks him or strikes him, rather its his own Sith lightning which is reflected back at him by Reys defense which proves to be his undoing).
One thing I did like about Rise of Skywalker is that at times it felt like "Star Wars: Symphony of the Night"...
Spoiler:
Rey is practically Alucard and even encounters an evil doppleganger(John Williams does Festival of Servants? OMG...). And Palpatine is all like "welcome grand daughter" before a final ruckus. And Ben! OMG! He even does a Richter Belmot "Bloodlines" at the beginning of the film, powerstriding to the temple on foot - except they don't have an OMG scene of supreme whupass and they just chat for a bit.
Rey also breaks Kylo taint of the darkside, bit like Alucard does with Richter and that annoying orb thingy.
I suppose Ben turns the tables like Maria does in the final bit and yet it would have been mindblowing if Rey had done a "Holy Cross" on Palpatine...but wait - she does! OMG! Crossed Lightsabers!
Lets face it, when there isn't a Skywalker to put things right, you need a Palpatine to sort out family affairs.
They did have an answer to it - she was descended from nobody important. I don't understand the fanbases insistence that the characters relationships must be incestuous (not in the literal sense, but in the sense that outside characters not related to the established characters within the setting cannot be introduced), you may have not liked it, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.
What is strange is that you quoted me but then responded with an answer to something I didn't say at all; I mean it was right there you could have referenced it right above the typing. There was no "insistence" of anything nor was there any mention of "the fanbase", an overly broad and generic descriptor to be sure, and there certainly wasn't any inference of anything incestuous. You seem to be projecting a lot onto a simple statement that really only said that the filmmakers didn't give the impression of a long term plan.
Well that wasn't nearly as bad as I was expecting.
I suppose that makes sense because:
1. Most of the critics that hated it loved TLJ. 2. Most of the reviews said that if you hated TLJ then you'd like ROS.
TLJ had me leaving the theatre angry. This had me leave feeling sad, and not sad that that was the end of the SW saga, but more sad that that was the end we got. Overall I didn't find it satisfying, as the series jettisoned it's original characters far too quickly and never gave me reason to care about Rey, Poe and Finn. As such the "conclusion" was centred around a bunch of people we hardly knew, leaving any kind of ressonance and emotion behind.
Rise of Skywalker (or The Rise of Skywalker, as the crawl says - get your titles right JJ!) isn't a good film, but it's not an awful film either. It doesn't hurt or kill Star Wars as a whole. It's not a film I despise like TLJ, nor is a film I find incredibly irritating for all the potential it squanders like ROTS. In the end it's a bit like Attack of the Clones - basically a long slog through the first two acts with a few fancy sequences that are fun, and then a big emotional payoff finale that's fun to look at but ultimately lacks half of the punch it thinks it has.
They did have an answer to it - she was descended from nobody important. I don't understand the fanbases insistence that the characters relationships must be incestuous (not in the literal sense, but in the sense that outside characters not related to the established characters within the setting cannot be introduced), you may have not liked it, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.
What is strange is that you quoted me but then responded with an answer to something I didn't say at all; I mean it was right there you could have referenced it right above the typing. There was no "insistence" of anything nor was there any mention of "the fanbase", an overly broad and generic descriptor to be sure, and there certainly wasn't any inference of anything incestuous. You seem to be projecting a lot onto a simple statement that really only said that the filmmakers didn't give the impression of a long term plan.
Its not strange at all. You contend they needed a "last minute" answer to her identity. I have clarified that they provided that answer already and didnt need to retcon it. The rest of my statements are inferred - you are a part of the fanbase, and your belief that the question was "unanswered" implies you found Rey being descended from "nobody" to be unsatisfying. You also misunderstood what I meant by "incestuous", which is amazing because I literally clarified what I meant in the next sentence:
(not in the literal sense, but in the sense that outside characters not related to the established characters within the setting cannot be introduced)
Watching the movies I always thought it was interesting that the "Chosen One from the prophecy" was discussed as someone who would bring balance to the force and that was interpreted as defeating the Sith.
If Sith are Yin and Jedi are Yang- Anakin brought balance to the force by killing powerful Jedi to ensure it was balanced for both the good and the evil.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Watching the movies I always thought it was interesting that the "Chosen One from the prophecy" was discussed as someone who would bring balance to the force and that was interpreted as defeating the Sith.
If Sith are Yin and Jedi are Yang- Anakin brought balance to the force by killing powerful Jedi to ensure it was balanced for both the good and the evil.
Not how that works. The sith are the imbalance in the force, an invading force rather than the yin.
Is it though? Star Wars source material under Disney has given so many divergent explanations for what "balance" means with respect to the force is basically means nothing.
Saw it today with my wife. We both thoroughly enjoyed it.
It had the same breathless pacing problem as TFA, but was good fun.
A little puzzled by all the comments I've seen about it retconning a lot of TLJ. While there were a couple of obviously tongue in cheek digs, for the most part JJ did an excellent job of building on what TLJ built up. IMO, obviously.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Watching the movies I always thought it was interesting that the "Chosen One from the prophecy" was discussed as someone who would bring balance to the force and that was interpreted as defeating the Sith.
If Sith are Yin and Jedi are Yang- Anakin brought balance to the force by killing powerful Jedi to ensure it was balanced for both the good and the evil.
Funnily enough in one of the comics Mace and Yoda have that conversation with Yoda pointing it out that 2 sith and 2 Jedi would be balanced.
However to be fair there sat in a diner and mace had to ask for a high chair for yoda and to hapless thieves try too hold the diner up and Mace has to get his bad mother jedi wallet back.
I saw RoS yesterday.
I don't know. I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would I saw a few reviews on line. I can completely understand the negative reviews. It's a weird movie and not in a good way. I don't like how rushed everything was. It could have been a really good movie.
I found that I actually liked Fin and Rey and even Ren. Fin's story arch was a massive missed opportunity based on this movies and what was implied. The dialog was not very good or meaningful the bickering just made them come off a s more angry than they probably were in some spots.
This all got me thinking more about Jedi and what the movies have shown us over the years. I started out with Anew hope and watched that on tape, Beta max if I remember, several times a week growing up. I think I remember seeing The empire strikes back in a theater, I was still quite young, where the picture was being shown on the screen as well as the walls and ceiling, or the projector wasn't working properly, I don't know if that wrap around was a trend or not.
But as far as the Jedi and the Mary sue, well Yes and maybe no but I don't feel I have a strong argument for no. I just think I have been thinking about the Jedi wrong because I keep thinking back the films 4, 5 and 6. But 1,2 and 3 established the fancy super power stuff a Jedi can do and this feels a lot more like that now...because we see Rey was training. It's funny that seeing some one working to improve themselves makes their abilities more believable. I wish they had done more with that in all 3 films but to be honest I haven't felt up to watching 7 and 8 recently.
One thing that bothers me about reviews is why bring up the music and FX at all those being excellent is a given it's the story and dialog that will make or brake a SW movie post prequel. The lazy "they fly now" ...not so much. I don't know.
A little puzzled by all the comments I've seen about it retconning a lot of TLJ. While there were a couple of obviously tongue in cheek digs, for the most part JJ did an excellent job of building on what TLJ built up. IMO, obviously.
There's a LOT of clickbait going around right now to try and stir up the culture war again for selfish and petty reasons. They're trying to stir the pot to get attention and the movie does essentially nothing to deserve it.
I saw it last night. Me and my friend agreed that this was a dumb movie. At times fun, at times boring. Everything happens at such a break neck pace. The over all ending wasn't bad, Not great, but not bad.
Spoiler:
Chewies medal was just fan service and dumb.
I liked the whole look with palpatine. Being a sith mummy on a horrid robot arm. That was great. When his lightning killed him, also great.
Glad it's over.
Move on to like... 3-500 years in the future where every character we have seen so far except the Yodling is dead.
It's better than good, but lacking something. It has the breathless pacing of TFA and a lot of great moments and ideas. Apparently it was also originally 20 min longer at one point and really shows with a lot of really jerking transitions and few of the excellent aerial stunts that made TFA really memorable.
I think what ends up making the movie so divisive with critics is the ending, which falls into the worst of TFAs issues with feeling rehashed and leaves the viewer feeling very... empty. It's flashy and you kind of get the ideas behind it, but JJA never gives them a sense of weight or meaning (at one point having Palp literally explain a cheap callback) and having so many rapid apparent death/really alive flip flops in quick succession that it feels like watching a coin flipping through the air without any of the tension of not knowing how it will land.
Also, of the thing they DID retcon, which I'll put in spoilers because it really doesn't affect my thoughts on the film, but I have thoughts on it:
Spoiler:
Rey being a Palpatine really struck me as why I don't really care for JJAs mystery boxes. It really doesn't add anything to the film other than trying to win you over with a cheap surprise, but.. its not surprising nor particularly meaningful. Like, Palps evil scheme to possess(?) Rey doesn't suddenly sound appealing because he's her granddad. There's no redeeming the guy... there is no... conflict, but you know, without that line being an obvious lie.
I don’t know how you conclude that it’s “better than good” and then describe some of the major flaws (lack of consequences, rushed pacing, pointless plot elements, ineffective reveals) that make it way, way less than good.
Usual disclaimer: I don’t begrudge anyone enjoying a product. If you have a good time watching a movie, that’s great.
These are still the preliminary estimates that will be adjusted tomorrow with the real numbers from Sunday but it looks like ROS is making gobs of money though less than TLJ. $176 mil domestically / $374 international versus $224 mil dom/$450 inter for TLJ.
Also, of the thing they DID retcon, which I'll put in spoilers because it really doesn't affect my thoughts on the film, but I have thoughts on it:
Spoiler:
Rey being a Palpatine really struck me as why I don't really care for JJAs mystery boxes. It really doesn't add anything to the film other than trying to win you over with a cheap surprise, but.. its not surprising nor particularly meaningful. Like, Palps evil scheme to possess(?) Rey doesn't suddenly sound appealing because he's her granddad. There's no redeeming the guy... there is no... conflict, but you know, without that line being an obvious lie.
Spoiler:
I actually liked this development. It's certainly less of a real retcon than, say, Vader turning out to be Luke's father, rather than the guy who killed him. Ultimately, Rey's parents were nobody - we're not even told their names, IIRC. That just wasn't the whole story, only the part that suited Palpatine's purposes at that point in time.
The whole 'kill me and I'll posses you, ahahaha!' thing was possibly coming on a little strong, but is still in keeping with the way he taunted Luke to strike him down in RotJ... and let's face it, Palps is more than a little nuts. I thought I would dislike Palpatine's return to the story, but turned out I really, really enjoyed the way it played out, right down to the symmetry of the confrontation.
Welp, seen it now(one benefit of the ST tanking harder than a Baneblade in Asia - plenty of empty cinemas there for people to make cams in undisturbed ); it's not terrible. It's not good, either, of course.
I mostly feel the same way I did after Force Awakens - it's more successful at signalling to the viewer that it's trying really really hard to be a Star Wars movie than it is at actually being a Star Wars movie. The standard-issue-JJ pacing issues are even worse than TFA, but I expected that going in, and it did some things a lot better than TFA - the main characters actually spent enough time with each other for their emotional moments to feel a little bit earned this time. Some of the dialogue was...not great. The interaction between Palpatine and Rey at the end, for example, is a bit too on the nose, especially when we have the throne room scenes from RotJ to compare it to. In general, everything is a bit too convenient, a bit too illogical, and it sometimes falls a bit flatter than what the film's score is trying to tell me I should be feeling, but it's not the worst movie ever made and it's certainly not the worst Star Wars movie that exists.
I'd give it a solid Phantom Menace out of 10.
What remains to be seen now is what Disney do next. If they use this film to cap off the Sequels and on - ideally under new management - to more interesting things, I'd say RoS is probably about as close to a success as it could be(in terms of the franchise, not money obviously) given the context. If Kennedy manages to dig in and goes back to giving Johnson and his ilk opportunities to mangle the franchise, it'll be an even bigger wasted opportunity than TFA was.
Personally I think the plot points and big 'reveals' of the RoS were meh and really something which was done better several times in old EU. However, I will say that if they had not done TLJ at all and instead just let JJA do RoS as two movies, end result would have been better. It would still have been a meh story, but at least it could have been well told & suitably built story. Now everything in RoS happens not only with no foreshadowing or build-up whatsoever, but at times completely contradicting what happened in two previous movies. You are constantly left wondering, what the heck was even the point of previous movies??
Plot twists of the prequel trilogy made no sense either, but at least there George was working towards clear and well-defined goal and build accordingly. RoS just throws you bunch of hardballs and says 'gotta catch 'em all!!'
Given that this film establishes that Force ghosts are able to directly interact with and manipulate physical reality (which I believe is a first), I don't really see any reason why force ghost anakin couldn't have just shown up and killed Palpatine directly. More interesting though, would have been if while Rey is blocking Sidious force lightning the ghosts of Jedi past show up and use some sort of ghostly force power to destroy Palpatine once and for all or something, would have avoided the confusion that many seem to have with how Rey killed Palpatine without being possessed by him like he claimed she would be if she had executed him (this is more a problem with the audience than the movie IMO, as I dont believe Rey actually attacks him or strikes him, rather its his own Sith lightning which is reflected back at him by Reys defense which proves to be his undoing).
Surely a moon size of Endor has room for some oceans too.
); it's not terrible. It's not good, either, of course.