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Togusa, that final sentence makes me want to see this almost as much as I want to see Cats.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Togusa, that final sentence makes me want to see this almost as much as I want to see Cats.

I really tried. I went in with no expectations, having seen no credible spoilers, and I was able to correctly predict EVERY. SINGLE. SURPRISE.

I kept thinking. Who are all these people and why the hell do I care?


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Backfire wrote:
Fresh from seeing it. This movie was like TLJ and TFA thrown into blender and poured out as one big movie. It had some really good stuff, also some cringe-worthy stuff and much cookie-cutter stuff. Overall it just felt like overlong and too many elements crammed in. And sad to say, big plot reveals were lame. Like fan theory stuff-lame.

I wouldn't say it was actively bad like the prequels, however of all the DT movies, this one suffers from pacing issues the most. Also, the lack of overall vision for the saga becomes glaringly obvious.

The Prequels were Vivaldi Symphonies compared to this mess.


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SamusDrake wrote:
Finally, a sequel with an actual foundation to work from, and its mostly thanks to the Emperor and the primary focus on the heroic trio of Poe, Finn and Rey.

Rise of Skywalker is not only the best sequel but also one of the better saga movies. My hat off to JJ for not falling into the same trap as he did with The Force Awakens which was remaking A New Hope. There are throw backs and nods to other episodes(mostly ROTJ), but its mostly its own thing.

It does have its share of problems; a bit long for a SW movie, supporting characters are mostly redundant and too many desert and forest planets where Tatooine and Endor's moon would have sufficed. I've also given up trying to keep note of which snow planet is which. Felt a bit confused with the epic space battle.

Otherwise, a good star wars movie and end to the saga itself.

Um. It's literally Return of the Jedi. The entire plot is exactly the same.

 warboss wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I disagree with you on the motivations of the critics, but I do agree that Disney deserves the blame.

I'm not sure I follow on the first part. You don't think anti-fan rhetoric is behind some of the bad reviews? Here's one prominent detractor who has repeatedly attacked fans over the years and was one of the first to give it a bad review.

Review: ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Is The Worst ‘Star Wars’ Movie Ever

The Rise of Skywalker is a bad movie and a miserable finale that serves no purpose other than to reassure adult fans of the original Star Wars that they are still the “chosen ones” of the pop culture galaxy.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/12/18/review-disney-and-lucasfilms-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-is-a-terrible-end-to-the-skywalker-saga/

You'd think a financial magazine/organization like Forbes would be a bit more even handed in their approach but no such luck. His synopsis blurb right under the article title is devoted to insulting fans of the original trilogy. His motivation isn't subtle especially given his preview night tweet below...

Yeah, that's pretty pathetic. I don't like critics blaming "the fans". It strikes me as the laziest kind of scapegoating. If i were an editor at that magazine I would have asked him to change that or not published.

So, #TheRiseOfSkwalker... in the end, it was STAR WARS "fans" that killed #StarWars

https://twitter.com/ScottMendelson/status/1206826229992583168

I'm not saying that it's the only thing behind his negative review but it certainly is one of the main factors. The fandom shouldn't IMO play such a prominent role in his review of a film that it makes it to the top; at best, it should be a single sentence buried somewhere in the middle and not mentioned above things above things like plot and characters. Professional critics are sadly anything but nowadays and view themselves equally as activists and I think that's why the fandom figures both so prominently and negatively in his review.

below...

There are critics who want to rant about culture war crap or whatever bothers them and simply use the film as an excuse. I tend to tune out reviewers who discuss the fans or culture war stuff as anything other than bare context (for the kinds of films where that matters). Unfortunately, clicks get money, outrage gets clicks, and pushing an angle gets outrage.

And some people would just be ranting at the bus station if they didn't have a YouTube channel.

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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I think "fan service" is one of those phrases that has become almost meaningless. Respecting the original films, getting the details right, and striving for continuity should never be dismissed as fan service. I prefer Jahn's term "memberberries" for low-effort "look, I did a thing you liked the first time" inclusions in a film. For my tastes, TFA was a worse movie than TLJ because at least TLJ tried to do something newish (and also, despite his weaknesses as a writer, RJ understands that a movie is not a collection of scenes with no connective tissue, giving him a commanding lead over Abrams). TLJ might make me angry; TFA doesn't make me feel anything.

I agree with you on the current misuse of the term fan service. It's being used to broadly as a scape goat by the media (you don't seem to agree with that part) to describe bad plot that side references older canon, blatant pandering, and actual intelligent fan service.
below...

Somewhat. I don't approve when a studio blames the fans as a strategy, or when reviewers project onto franchise fanbases. However, there are times when we disagree on whether someone is blaming the fanbase for their movie being bad or someone is blaming a small, motivated group of ostensible fans for creating controversy.
(I'm thinking of that Terminator movie here. To me, the director was was not badmouthing all fans, but rather one group who lost their crap over an advertising campaign outside his control. I read some of the more political reviews from both sides of the spectrum when we thought a conversation was going to develop, and they were just full of projection, half-truths and people seeing things that weren't there. The film had fewer blatant "wymyn powerrr" lines than Laura Dern got in Jurassic Park, but you would think it was the Feminine Mystique all over again from the reviews. I hate it when reviewers drag their baggage into a review and won't let movies just be movies.)

I haven't seen this movie obviously but I didn't enjoy the shallow remaking of ANH in TFA. I walked out of that with family who thought it was good (not great but just good) and they were surprised that I didn't like it. When I told them that it was basically a mediocre and forgettable remake of the original movie, they didn't believe me until I did a short synopsis and asked them to tell me which movie I was referring to and why. i.e. A supposedly unimportant orphan on a desert planet encounters a droid with great significance in the fight against the galactic overlords ends up escaping the planet on the millenium falcon, meeting up with the freedom fighters who lost the droid, discovers that he or she has secret mystical powers, loses their impromptu surrogate father/mentor to an evil space wizard dressed in black, and helps destroy the tyrannical regime's massive planet destroying base. Are they identical beat for beat? No, of course not... but I don't think you can tell which movie I was referring to. That to me wasn't fan service but unoriginal derivative story telling.

I felt that way discussing TFA on forums, like I was the only one who cold see the film for what it was, but I had supportive friends in real life. I also have real problems with how Abrams constructs and paces his films. To me he feels like one of those directors whom Red Letter Media describe as "an alien who saw a movie once".

Hey, remember when people said those spoiler leaks sounded like lies made up by internet rage-merchants?

Remember just a little while ago when literally every damned one of them turned out to be true?

Pepperidge Farms remembers.

This is the part where I say, "I told you so".

 Scrabb wrote:
The movie is out. We saw the trailers.

Stop. Gatekeeping.

Some folks would defend A Serbian Film if they were told that only bigots hate it.

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

Big fleet of star Destroyers. Why? No body knows where it came from or how. REASONS!

Spoiler:

Royal Guard, who I am pretty sure are supposed to be immune or at least resistant to the Force are tossed around like squeaky toys. LAUGHABLY BAD.

Spoiler:

Tie Fighters can go light-speed now. For some reason.

This was a terrible movie. Even worse than The Last Jedi. What a shame.

Movie theater at the mall had showings tonight on 3 screens. The neighbor's kid works there and said all but one of them was empty.

He's mad because the theater is required to keep the movie on 3 screens until the end of January. They already told him they are cutting his hours until it's gone.

People were talking in the theater, making fun of the film, and walking out before the end. Someone complained that they were not allowed to use coupons and that meant they could not get a replacement ticket because they didn't like the film.

He watched most of the movie and said it was bad. He complained about all the ghosts in the film, said that made it seem cheap. He complained that the main characters spent most of the movie trying to find each other, then there was this big battle at the end where all these ships just showed up. He said that didn't make sense, but it wasn't as hard as other parts.

He did say the special effects were well done.

Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.

 techsoldaten wrote:
He did say the special effects were well done.

Disney's the second-largest entertainment company on the planet. Special effects being well-done isn't really praise when you're Disney, it's about like saying "I wiped my own ass!" as a 30-year-old adult.

I heard John Williams showed up big to give his swan song, at least.

I listened closely for anything interesting in the score. Sorry, it’s just a few nostalgic call backs to the RotJ soundtrack. Everything else was forgettable.

 Manchu wrote:
I listened closely for anything interesting in the score. Sorry, it’s just a few nostalgic call backs to the RotJ soundtrack. Everything else was forgettable.

Now that you mention it...I don't recall anything about the track. Sheesh.

The score was one of the few things I enjoyed about the film. Dissapointed that Wedge didnt get more than a single line and that we didnt get to see a T-85 on screen.
Dismayed by the rest of it...

 Togusa wrote:


Um. It's literally Return of the Jedi. The entire plot is exactly the same.

Spoiler:

Jedi all but gone. You're our only hope, Mary Sue. Resistance losing. Empire has super weapon of ultimate power. Young Jedi wannabe learns the truth about herself. Emperor does things. Emperor is killed (Again). Super Weapons of Ultimate Power are destroyed in last desperate gamble. Celebration. [No Ewok Music this time, but we did get to see two of the bears watch what looked like an SSD AGAIN get blown up over Endor.] Everyone gets a medal. Hugs all around. Roll Credits.

Sorry you didn't enjoy the movie, and as I said it does have its faults.

As for being exactly the same plot as ROTJ - yes, but only towards the end of the film. For most of it, the film was its own thing and felt more like episodes of Clone Wars and Rebels, which was certainly not the case for Force Awakens. With that film they literally just remade A New Hope.

For example, we were expecting to see the 2nd Death Star to start flying around the galaxy wiping out crusiers and planets, but instead it serves a different purpose.

Apart from being on a desert planet and the skiffs scnee, we weren't subjected to "not-Jabba", "not-Rancor-monster" or "not-great-pit-of-carkoon". In fact some of it was a nod to The Phantom Menace. The underground creature could have been the Rancor, but once again that scene is for a different purpose.

Theres the bit on the snow planet which doesn't fit anything in ROTJ at all.

I have to laugh at how seriously everyone takes these films. I have been a fan since seeing ROTJ as a five year old in 1987. Overall I enjoyed the "Disney" trilogy. Was Rise of Skywalker a perfect film? Far from it. I found it an OK popcorn movie that lolloped along at a fair pace with some great, and some questionable, moments. It has not ruined my childhood. I am still a Star Wars fan. I am not calling for boycott's or the heads of directors or producers. I am not stamping up and down, shouting or creating pointless "social" media crusades.

Increasingly I find that we build up events, days, movies et al in our minds and they usually feel a bit "meh" once all is said and done. They just rarely live up to our expectations. This movie trilogy was largely the same to me. I would loved to have been a kid when these films were released though.

Qué Sera Sera.

Going to see it tonight. Dressing up in my full Jedi garb. Still trying to avoid spoilers, but skimming through some of the reactions here are abysmal.
The expectations are so low, that there's a very real chance that once I've seen it I'll think RoS is the BEST SW movie ever.

Dead serious. It never fails. When I read reviews filled with such loathing and contempt (for big budget movies, at least), I end up walking away from the movie like" Huh, that movie was pretty darn good!" I loved Endgame for the fan service, so if I expect RoS to be similar, I shan't be disappointed

So, thanx, I guess. At least I know my ticket money was well spent before even seeing it

-

Gotta say I'm surprised by the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes of 76/88% (unverified/verified). I was curious before about the 4 day weekend box office total will be but now I'm really curious. Is the low critic and high audience score the result of the Revenge of the Critics and Return of the Normies?

 warboss wrote:
Gotta say I'm surprised by the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes of 76/88% (unverified/verified). I was curious before about the 4 day weekend box office total will be but now I'm really curious. Is the low critic and high audience score the result of the Revenge of the Critics and Return of the Normies?

I'm not surprised. This reeks of the opposite of TLJ. Critics LOVED that movie, but the audience score was initially garbage.
I'm sure it boils down to what was previously discussed in this thread. Critics 'critique' films and have very low tolerance for fun-popcorn event films with fan-service, while most casual audience goers are looking specifically for fun-popcorn movies and "fans" love fan-service.
Heck, I would not be surprised if the Audience score got even hire by the end of the weekend

-

After watching this film I felt JJ Abrams did what he had to do to fix the horror of Episode 8. I felt like you could watch 7 & 9 and still get a complete arc of this Sequel "Trilogy".

Much like the Force Awakens where JJ did what he had to do to put faith back in to the fan base, JJ once again is forced to try and build trust in the fan base, and I think he does that. He acknowledges and in my view, fixes/retcons? the errors and plot problems with Ep 8. Mainly the Holdo Light speed Maneuver, Reys lineage, and a lot less Rose.

The beginning of this film is rushed a bit as they bounce from planet to planet, but this is necessary to fix episode 8. Basically JJ is getting 2 films to create a trilogy in, as I feel you could skip Ep 8 entirely and still get the story.

There are nods to all three trilogies which either uses references to old locations, characters, or bits of plot to really tie all 9 films together. JJ also answers the key questions he posed for Episode 7 that Ep 8 ignores/changed.

The plot is a little predictable, but its Star Wars, its a Hero's Journey, so you know what to expect. I really like the finale story wise and the central theme of the entire series is finally fulfilled. There are some subtle things that are easy to miss in that regard. I really like what they did with Rey. You do find out the truth about her parents.

As for Kylo, I really liked his arc and felt he was the most fleshed out of all the new Trilogy characters. We also get to learn a bit more about Poe's history which was an interesting twist, and the banter between him and the other characters was enjoyable. Fenn has some new development which was foreshadowed a bit in the prior to films but was a good payoff. We also get a couple new characters (droids, aliens, heroes, villains, and of course Cameos.)

Music is great as always. There are a couple fantastic cinematography shots, the wave scene reminded me of Interstellar a bit, and of course there is the "WOW" scene like with the death star explodes.

I did not notice any direct tie ins to the Mandalorian series, so if you haven't watched that it won’t matter and it won’t get spoiled. It’s possible there was something small I missed. There are indeed some nostalgia moments in the film and one near the end that brings closure to a fan favorite character from the original trilogy that was completely unexpected but enjoyable.

There are no End Credit scenes so you don't need to stay, but its interesting to see all the famous people that are storm troopers in this film. The list is quite long.

 Galef wrote:
Going to see it tonight. Dressing up in my full Jedi garb. Still trying to avoid spoilers, but skimming through some of the reactions here are abysmal.
The expectations are so low, that there's a very real chance that once I've seen it I'll think RoS is the BEST SW movie ever.

Dead serious. It never fails. When I read reviews filled with such loathing and contempt (for big budget movies, at least), I end up walking away from the movie like" Huh, that movie was pretty darn good!" I loved Endgame for the fan service, so if I expect RoS to be similar, I shan't be disappointed

So, thanx, I guess. At least I know my ticket money was well spent before even seeing it

-

That would maximize your experience then, which would actually be a good thing.

Full disclosure: I am not going to see it, as my movie experiences now are eclusive to a dinner theater and include stop at the in house bar, so we're talking $100+ a pop and are reserved to things we really want to see. So having said that, if this is something you are interested in, by all my ignore the naysayers and see it regardless. They are not you. Go and have fun!

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.

When does that happen ? IIRC

Backfire wrote:

Spoiler:

 Togusa wrote:

The first 40 minutes of the film is non-stop gunshots and fights and running and jumping and so on. It was painful to sit through, I kept finding myself constantly confused as characters would pose questions, and other characters would just magically know the exact answer to said questions. This happens half a dozen times through the film.

Rey just happens to know where she needs to go, because Force.

They did that already in ESB and again in TPM and so on...

 Togusa wrote:

3PO can speak Sith. But he can't tell you about it. We'll have to wipe his memory! R2 has a backup! REASONS!

That was one of the few things which actually made sense and was cogently explained. Sith wouldn't want to have any random protocol droid able to read their script, and Palpatine was in position to make that happen.

 Togusa wrote:

Rey a barely trained force user (Because I refuse to call her a Jedi Knight) easily defeats Kylo Ren (A barely trained Sith Apprentice) as easily as Vader threw his angry stepdad off the DS tower. Because Mary Sue.

Umm...that happened in TFA. In RoS, Rey loses the fight to Ren, until Leia intervenes.

 Togusa wrote:

The Death Star fell on some random planet that looks nothing like both Endor or Yavin. No explanation. Because REASONS!

...why should it look like Yavin? Surely a moon size of Endor has room for some oceans too.

 Togusa wrote:
Tie Fighters can go light-speed now. For some reason.

Think they're like new model. In X-Wing, new TIEs have shields too. Probably First Order, with less bases and Star Destroyers, needed to have its starfighters a bit more independent.
Whole lightspeed-jumping scene was daft, though.

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 warboss wrote:
Gotta say I'm surprised by the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes of 76/88% (unverified/verified). I was curious before about the 4 day weekend box office total will be but now I'm really curious. Is the low critic and high audience score the result of the Revenge of the Critics and Return of the Normies?

I'm not. There were a lot of people online saying that it was their duty to "combat trolls" by leaving good reviews. All most all of the major news outlets have articles up proclaiming that if you don't like this film, it's because your a white incel that hates blacks and women! It couldn't possibly be because the fill was duller than a blunt hammer and poorly acted and written. Nope, we're all just horrible Nazis!




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[/spoiler]

I dunno, she was easily defeating him in the battle scene, I don't think the contact from Leia had much to do with him losing. Seemed pointless to me.

Togusa is right and it's actually a very worrying trend not to be able to criticize anything, especially brand and products, without being labelled far right trolls. It's beginning quite obvious thanks to SW as there are so many white knights to protect the new trilogy

Edit: the more I think about it the more the light speed stuff at the beginning is a total non sense. It's the OPPOSITE effect of TLJ
and they act like if they changed dimension like going through the warp of smth while they just go faster. Total gak.

Manchu wrote:Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.

Pretty much what Manchu said.

I will say it was probably more enjoyable to watch than TLJ, but even now I am wondering "but was it really?" It was at least better than the leaks made it sound but it still wasnt good.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Manchu wrote:Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.

Pretty much what Manchu said.

I will say it was probably more enjoyable to watch than TLJ, but even now I am wondering "but was it really?" It was at least better than the leaks made it sound

Spoiler:

while being exactly what the leaks said

but it still wasnt good.

Yes, totally agree on the lack of drama at supposedly dramatic points. There are three big ones that I can remember that fell especially flat.

Dont forget C-3P0’s memory wipe drama.

ListenToMeWarriors wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

Manchu wrote:Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.

Pretty much what Manchu said.

I will say it was probably more enjoyable to watch than TLJ, but even now I am wondering "but was it really?" It was at least better than the leaks made it sound

Spoiler:

while being exactly what the leaks said

but it still wasnt good.

Yes, totally agree on the lack of drama at supposedly dramatic points. There are three big ones that I can remember that fell especially flat.

Spoiler:

Chewie's "death" on the transport (admittedly this was ruined for me by the trailer as I knew we had not yet seen the scene of Finn, Chewy and Poe running and shooting through the command destroyer". Kylie's original "death" and then Rey's passing. All were u-turned in a matter of seconds with barely a chance for breath let alone thought.

The first of your spoilers is spoiled by the simple fact that

Also the C-3P0 drama had no reason to be undone, but here they go undoing it. Cant actually have stakes for the Heroes.

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

It was a completely different planet. It wasn't Endor and it wasn't Yavin.

Spoiler:

He beats her, quite hardly tbh, until his mother calls him and distracts him (he believed her dead IIRC) and then she kills him cowardly.

I dunno, she was easily defeating him in the battle scene, I don't think the contact from Leia had much to do with him losing. Seemed pointless to me.

 Manchu wrote:
Every time anything potentially dramatic happens it is almost immediately reversed. Nothing has any consequence. Details are overexplained. Big plot points are totally unexplained.

Just as Benicio Del Toro's character in TLJ explained to all of us.

Nothing matters int eh Star Wars Universe, and nothing lasts. One day you shoot at them, and the next they shoot at you.... and for what!

Pretty much sums up everything wrong with the new trilogy to me.