aphyon wrote: Fun note-demons spawned in off an icon do not count as deepstriking and can move and assault as normal.
One of the key abilities of the old siren prince was flying around immune to all harm while placing daemonettes directly into combat up and down the board.
It was also possible with the 4e CSM codex, but not as popular with the weaker generic daemons. Drive-by summoning from rhinos was a tactic I tried a few times in 5th and it wasn't as terrible as their statline would suggest.
I'm trying to piece together what kind of Chaos list I want to do using the 3.5 dex. Leaning towards Slaanesh because I never tried them before. Not sure about going full Emperor's Children or not.
I'm also tempted to try an Alpha Legion list and go nuts with infiltrators with deep strike support.
Re-reading this codex has be drooling nurgle-style all over it.
Mezmorki wrote: I'm trying to piece together what kind of Chaos list I want to do using the 3.5 dex. Leaning towards Slaanesh because I never tried them before. Not sure about going full Emperor's Children or not.
I'm also tempted to try an Alpha Legion list and go nuts with infiltrators with deep strike support.
Re-reading this codex has be drooling nurgle-style all over it.
There is so much fun to be had. our khorne player is toying with the idea of doing a demon heavy word bearers army so he can use his dark apostle mini with the codex.
I am not a chaos player myself but i do have loads of fun fighting against this codex. that last battle i absolutely could not kill those predators with all those good chaosy upgrades, but it didn't stop me from trying.
Insectum7 wrote: Man that late 4th Chaos dex was a heck of a dissapointment.
Double las prince with 9 obliterators intensifies.
it's arguably even worse than 3.5 Opness....
Yeah about that....had a guy at my store try that on me after copying a tourney list. i completely shut him down he gave up on turn 3 since lash doesn't work on vehicles. 6 venerable dreadnoughts don't care. especially when you bubble wrap your princes in plague marines that cannot take power fists.
Insectum7 wrote: Man that late 4th Chaos dex was a heck of a dissapointment.
Double las prince with 9 obliterators intensifies.
it's arguably even worse than 3.5 Opness....
Yeah about that....had a guy at my store try that on me after copying a tourney list. i completely shut him down he gave up on turn 3 since lash doesn't work on vehicles. 6 venerable dreadnoughts don't care. especially when you bubble wrap your princes in plague marines that cannot take power fists.
TBF, nobody normally did run 6 dreads, nevermind that those 6 dreads sruvive the onslaught of 9 obliterators...
however, my point was, that it was worse in all things and through streamlining got even more OP than it had anyright to be....
makes me miss when chaos was customizable though....
Dreads are my favorite model so when the MOTF allowed them to be taken as elite and heavies i was in.
Fire support dreads in re-enforced cover dueling with oblits give as good as they take especially after they reduced the oblits T to 4(5). especially while the other ones drop pod in next to the lash princes in the back
But yeah i have seen all those gimmick lists when WAAC players tried to stretch the rules. the guy i was fighting was notorious for copy/pasting winning lists he saw from tourney reports.
Insectum7 wrote: Man that late 4th Chaos dex was a heck of a dissapointment.
It certainly was if you were disappointed by loss of wargear and flavour.
Not so much if you were disappointed by the loss of the siren prince. Some of the things in 3rd ed just took it too far - see the Blood Angels and their 27"+ charge for example.
Not Online!!! wrote: Double las prince with 9 obliterators intensifies.
it's arguably even worse than 3.5 Opness....
Two princes, 9 oblits, three mech squads of plague marines and a squad of melta raptors give or take. Plasmacide optional.
Must have faced a variation of that a bunch of times and I think the 5th edition meta did a fair amount to subdue it. Against a big mech rush or tank gunline you were more concerned about a last turn objective lash but you had the whole game to do something about it.
Insectum7 wrote: Man that late 4th Chaos dex was a heck of a dissapointment.
It certainly was if you were disappointed by loss of wargear and flavour.
Not so much if you were disappointed by the loss of the siren prince. Some of the things in 3rd ed just took it too far - see the Blood Angels and their 27"+ charge for example.
Yeah, 'cause it's replacement - Lash - was so much better.
Insectum7 wrote: Man that late 4th Chaos dex was a heck of a dissapointment.
It certainly was if you were disappointed by loss of wargear and flavour.
Not so much if you were disappointed by the loss of the siren prince. Some of the things in 3rd ed just took it too far - see the Blood Angels and their 27"+ charge for example.
The 3rd ed BA codex might have been the worst codex GW has ever made.
The Siren power was a tiny price to pay for an otherwise fantastic book, imo. Yes, I saw a lot of IW armies with Obliterators and four Heavy Support options, but maybe no other book has been as fun to think up army themes and build lusts for. I built a bunch of armies for Chaos and I didn't even play Chaos. I can still open that book and it is just inspirational.
The 3rd ed BA codex might have been the worst codex GW has ever made
Which is why our group uses the 5th ed dex, funny thing is, when the 30K book came out for the BA legion it mirrored many of the rules/composition that appeared in the 5th edition dex.
Insectum7 wrote: I can still open that book and it is just inspirational.
The range of wargear and other upgrade options were considerable and interesting. And it's the last time daemons and marines were a combined faction with ~38 distinct units plus characters.
But the layout of the book was labyrinthine and the balance such that siren princes were not the worst of it. It's a pity the 4e book didn't keep the options and do them sensibly.
Alright ... here's my stab at an Emperor's Children List (2000 points). No idea how this will work!
+++HQ+++
Keeper of Secrets (greater demon) (160)
- Wind of Chaos psychic power
Chaos Lord on Steed of Slaanesh (150)
- Mark of Slaanesh, Demonic Resilience (+1 T) Visage (-1 to enemy Ld)
- Dark Blade, Plasma Pistol
- The steed gives him +1A and moved as cavalry.
- So he has a power weapon at S6, with 5 attacks (6 on the charge)
+++ELITES+++
5x Chosen Retinue on Daemonic Steeds (330 !!!!)
- Frags, Mark of Slaanesh, Bolt Pistols, Power Weapons, Daemonic Strength, Furious Charge
- These guys have T5 + S5. Power weapons are S6 on the charge
+++TROOPS+++
6x Noise Marines Squad (168)
- Frags, mark of Slaanesh, INFILTRATION, 2x sonic blaster, 1x blastmaster, 1x plasma gun
- Aspiring Champion daemonic strength, power weapon
6x Noise Marines Squad (168)
- Same as above
6x Noise Marines Squad (168)
- Same as above
6x Noise Marines Squad (168)
- Same as above
6x Daemonettes (90)
6x Daemonettes (90)
+++HEAVY SUPPORT+++
Predator (135)
- Dedicated to slaanesh (warp amp), Blastmaster turret, heavy bolter sponsons, Extra armor
Dreadnought (184)
- Extra CCW, 1x sonic blaster, 1x doom siren, Warp Amp, Blasphemous rune (further -1 to Ld)
- Daemonic possession + mutated hull
Dreadnought (184)
- Extra CCW, 1x sonic blaster, 1x doom siren, Warp Amp, Blasphemous rune (further -1 to Ld)
- Daemonic possession + mutated hull
The four squads of Noise Marines infiltrate up field in a relatively safe place (I can also keep them in the deployment zone). The blastmasters are pretty strong (S8 blast if they don't move or else S5 assault 2 pinning). Idea is to camp on objectives and push out some fire. If anything gets too close, they switch to charge mode, where the warp screams and aspiring champion do their thing. They are also the anchor points for summoning the deamons.
The dreadnoughts are TOUGH (I hope) and are kitting out for close quarter combat. Need to deploy them aggressively in order to move up and support the noise marine squads. The Predator is there for fire support and tank shocking stuff as I move up field. The hope is that the warp amps from these three vehicles create a lot of leadership penalties across the table, so that I can force morale tests and have a good chance for them to fail.
The chaos lord and his chosen are there to be the big threat. They are all fairly tough at S5 T5 and hit had. Expensive unit through - could be totally overkill.
Don't forget to include icons in your units. You get one free for each marked squad - you need them to summon the lesser daemons.
You also need to note which champion is possessed (though you pick at the start of the game) - their base strength is increased to 6.
Your lord is at risk of getting power-fisted with a base toughness of 4 and no invulnerable. He is relatively conservative, lack of points?
Aside from that you may struggle with vehicles depending on your edition of rules.
----------------------------------
I can see what you are aiming for. I suspect it will be quite skewed depending on your opponent and edition though - that chosen unit is battlecannon bait.
Instead of doing the chaos lord + chosen on mounts, I could swap them to terminators and give all the noise marine squads teleport homers. The terminator load out ends up a bit cheaper. They don't get the toughness boost from the mount but would gain a 2+/5++ save instead.
Hell....am I reading it right that I could actually give the terminators infiltration?
Mezmorki wrote: Hell....am I reading it right that I could actually give the terminators infiltration?
No bikes, steeds, daemonic stature, marks of khone, models with followers, or anyone with terminator armour may infiltrate.
In any event the terminators lack the mobility of your unit, when I mentioned the lord I wondered if he would be suitable to tank for them but it's more points to get him to that level.
Waiting for reserves in earlier editions in a risky business. You'd be starting on the table with four small infantry units, two close combat dreadnoughts that lack transportation, and a predator with a poor mans battlecannon - and waiting until turn 3-4 to see the rest of it. Those noise marines would get wrecked before any reinforcements arrived.
If it ditched the predator and keeper I could swap in for a land raider. Then I could also go cheaper on the lord and chosen, using the land raider to provide both protection and mobility for getting them into CC range. I've never really liked land raiders but maybe the chaos upgrades give it some better utility
Worth trying your original ideas on the table before you abandon them IMO, you'll get a better idea of what works and where the weaknesses are - i.e. getting the dreads into action, having icon units in good positions for the arrivial of the daemons, etc.
Was a good read, and as a bonus you wrote it when I was almost 3 years old. It is good to see that GW did not lost their touch, when taking away stuff from armies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Unusual to see a Chaos Lord without Daemonic Strength/Daemonic Mutation.
The steed of Slaanesh grants the mutation and the dark sword gives +2 strength. So I think I have it covered?
Don't forget the demonic rune to make you immune to instant death from double strength guns.
The steed is nice, cav/beasts/leapers get a 12" charge instead of 6"
Predator (135)
- Dedicated to slaanesh (warp amp), Blastmaster turret, heavy bolter sponsons, Extra armor
I fight chaos preds/dreads all the time-
dozer blade for preds(optional if you have the points), demonic possession (ignores stunned and shaken-better than extra armor), mutated hull (+1 armor to all facings suddenly you have a mini land raider AV 14/12/11), parasitic possession (you come with your own tech marine that repairs each damaged system on a 4+ makes the dozer blade slightly redundant if you roll that magic 1)
Since we are using our 5th ed hybrid rules and defensive strength weapons are 5 or less a twin linked las and heavy bolter sponsons are ace.
If it ditched the predator and keeper I could swap in for a land raider. Then I could also go cheaper on the lord and chosen, using the land raider to provide both protection and mobility for getting them into CC range. I've never really liked land raiders but maybe the chaos upgrades give it some better utility
Sure a land raider can be killed, but it is a far cry from how squishy they have become in current 40K. remember you cannot give them demonic possession if they are a transport so the only real upgrades they need are the parasitic possession and to keep it thematic a warp amp and living vehicle (a real close combat ability not that silly stuff they introduced in 8th edition)
A.T. wrote:
Mezmorki wrote: Hell....am I reading it right that I could actually give the terminators infiltration?
No bikes, steeds, daemonic stature, marks of khone, models with followers, or anyone with terminator armour may infiltrate.
In any event the terminators lack the mobility of your unit, when I mentioned the lord I wondered if he would be suitable to tank for them but it's more points to get him to that level.
Waiting for reserves in earlier editions in a risky business. You'd be starting on the table with four small infantry units, two close combat dreadnoughts that lack transportation, and a predator with a poor mans battlecannon - and waiting until turn 3-4 to see the rest of it. Those noise marines would get wrecked before any reinforcements arrived.
In our hybrid 5th ed rules we went to the 3+ reserves on turn 2&3 auto on turn 4 so it isn't that terrible and moves the game along by more than not getting everything into the fight.
aphyon wrote: Don't forget the demonic rune to make you immune to instant death from double strength guns.
IIRC, that was a 30 point upgrade. Quite a hefty piece of kit, given the 100 point limit on Daemonic Gifts.
aphyon wrote: The steed is nice, cav/beasts/leapers get a 12" charge instead of 6"
That's why I always preferred D-Speed to D-Flight. Your Daemon Prince could move, and be on the other side of your DZ in no time.
aphyon wrote: dozer blade for preds(optional if you have the points), demonic possession (ignores stunned and shaken-better than extra armor), mutated hull (+1 armor to all facings suddenly you have a mini land raider AV 14/12/11), parasitic possession (you come with your own tech marine that repairs each damaged system on a 4+ makes the dozer blade slightly redundant if you roll that magic 1)
All those things eat up points very quickly. I often ended up ditching Parasitic Possession first in favour of the other two.
Except on Land Raiders, as you pointed out. There it was gold.
We just ignore the war gear points limit because we use base 5th ed rules, which also mean you get the frag and krak grenades for free
The points may add up but they are very much worth it (unless you are fighting 3rd ed grey knights the true lore counter codex).
That last game i posted pics from i could not kill those preds no matter what i tried. i damaged them, blew off guns or immobilized them but they grew back and every stunned/shaken result was no effect so yeah worth it in my book.
aphyon wrote: The points may add up but they are very much worth it (unless you are fighting 3rd ed grey knights the true lore counter codex).
A 'competitive' 3e GK list would be what, 2-3 landraiders, a couple of las/missile dreads, a few scoring PAGK squads and the grand masters retinue with a mix of swords and hammers?
You'd definitely want the extra armour and instant death immunity against that. Or a couple of meltaguns and a second game lined up, 3e DH was not the strongest of books.
Thanks for the input all. As we're using ProHammer there are a few rule impacts to keep in mind:
ALL units can assault after deepstriking, but if they do so, they lose their charge bonus. Also, we have reactive fire so you might take some hits when charging in.
Units can likewise charge after disembarking from moving transports (but again lose the charge bonus). Assault vehicles don't cause the charge bonus loss.
Vehicle damage tables are at a sweet spot IMHO. There are no Hull Points, but you need a 7+ to destroy a vehicle on a glance and 6+ on a penetrating hit (7+ explodes on penetrating). The rub is that if a vehicle has suffered a prior damaged result (weapon destroyed, etc.) then you add +1 to the result. The result is that vehicles are fairly tanky in the first turn or two, but once start taking damage are more likely to get destroyed.
------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I made a few tweaks to the list:
I used flying possessed instead of the chosen on cavalry. They don't get the extra toughness (but that didn't help much anyway) but pick up a 5++ save. Flying gives me the option to deep strike (all jump pack units have deep strike) or deploy at the start. Jump troops are easier to hide than Calvary as well.
Made the Lord with demonic stature with d. strength too (and aura), so he'll have S8 on the attack (4 + 1 + 1 +2 for dark sword).
The possessed saved a bunch of points, so I could give the dreadnoughts blastmasters for more fire support and also give the predator posssesed.
aphyon wrote: The points may add up but they are very much worth it (unless you are fighting 3rd ed grey knights the true lore counter codex).
A 'competitive' 3e GK list would be what, 2-3 landraiders, a couple of las/missile dreads, a few scoring PAGK squads and the grand masters retinue with a mix of swords and hammers?
You'd definitely want the extra armour and instant death immunity against that. Or a couple of meltaguns and a second game lined up, 3e DH was not the strongest of books.
The thing is the 3rd ed GK codex is designed based on the lore. it does one thing really really well-fight chaos aligned or demon armies out of the 3.5 codex. so while you can make a stand alone GK army it really works best as an allied force attached to another imperial force. sisters, marines, guard etc...they have special allies rules that allow them to join another imperial force in a way the normal allies rules do not.
Fitting in with the fact they show up where they are most needed to aid imperial forces against the forces of chaos/demonic incursions.
One of our guard players is building a thematic inquisitorial storm trooper army out of the book because he always wanted a pure storm trooper army and he has the added bonus of tossing in some GK units to bolster his effectively elite imperial guard army.
ALL units can assault after deepstriking, but if they do so, they lose their charge bonus. Also, we have reactive fire so you might take some hits when charging in.
Units can likewise charge after disembarking from moving transports (but again lose the charge bonus). Assault vehicles don't cause the charge bonus loss.
Since we are still using mostly pure 5th we like the restrictions on deepstrike and non-assault vehicles. it makes the units that can do those things maintain their very special place. like zagstruk, or vanguard veterans, dreads in lucius drop pods etc..
aphyon wrote: it does one thing really really well-fight chaos aligned or demon armies out of the 3.5 codex.
I used to play a lot of DH/WH lists and you kind of had to 'surprise' an opponent with that stuff. Almost all of the anti-daemon stuff was extra wargear you wouldn't take in an all-comers list and in a one-off game it was hundreds of points down the drain if the opponent turned up with vindicators, obliterators, and so on.
A single squad of GKT was about as far as i'd go with them for the psychic hood, but that was more useful against normal marines and eldar who didn't get unlimited respawning troops as a result of you taking a single allied-in unit...
WH/DH in 5th edition could run a mean parking lot though. You'd run out of units to take somewhere around 1500pts without inducted guard (similar to how the old 3e glass jaw dark eldar lists ran out of good picks as the points went up), but it was wall to wall rhinos, BS4 plasma/melta guns, twinlinked heavy flamers.
I have a truckload of hate directed at the baby carrier codex (5th) It made the GKs something they were never meant to be. i feel the same way about my witch hunters codex. real sisters of battle use the 3rd edition codex.....
Super heavy detachment (i am playing the lucius FW afterall )
Macharius
This game i went up against my old choas adversary in defense of a forge outpost-
We ended up rolling the end to end deployment and as we got a late start(so many games being played tonight) we opted for a quick and dirty kill them all scenerio.
The game was pretty close throughout with chaos really tuning things in the last round by causing the macharius to detonate in an apocalyptic explosion killing units on both sides.
You all have me interested in digging out my old chaos 3.5 codex again and playing a few games of oldhammer. can you remind me which core rulesbook works best with this codex? I am presuming the 3rd edition one?
The Forgemaster wrote: You all have me interested in digging out my old chaos 3.5 codex again and playing a few games of oldhammer. can you remind me which core rulesbook works best with this codex? I am presuming the 3rd edition one?
We are actually using core 5th because it has the best overall rule set. with the 15 house(imported) rules noted in the first post in this topic
(re-posted here)
.rapid fire weapon rules (6th/7th)
.snap fire(6th/7th)
.new weapon profiles(grav etc..)(6th/7th)
.overwatch(6th/7th)
.objective secure-troops choice(6th/7th)
.CCWAP value(6th/7th)
.grenade throwing(6th/7th)
.fearless-no LD checks(3rd)
.3+ reserves(6th/7th)
.flyer rules(7th+5th/forge world flyer rules)-jump units can assault, -12" range penalty for guns, immobilize result= destroyed
.4th edition vehicle assault rules-to-hit +armor facing= auto/4+/6+=not move/move up to 6"/move over 6"
.6th edition smash for MCs(half attacks rounded up max S 10)
.psyker powers used when in the proper phase(shooting attacks in shooting phase, melee in CC etc..) on lD check/selecting the known powers available at the start of the game as per 5th ed rules-includes all 7th edition disciplines.
.snipers-strength 3 always hits on 2+/wounds on 4+/rending on 6+ (3rd/4th)
.defensive weapons on vehicles-S5 or less do not count as heavy weapons if the vehicle moves at combat speed (and is not stunned/shaken)-4th
we don't use the wargear points restriction limit for characters or pay extra for normal kit-frag and krak-because they were removed/became automatic in 5th.
The goal was to make the game both as fun as possible and as lore accurate as possible.
So the big question is which of the chaos gods do you server or do you serve them undivided?
Cool, thanks, back then I tried several different legions, although I was fond of Night Lords or just a mix of misc. warbands (i.e. not a particular legion), I only really did small games at the time due to only starting my collection(s) at that point.
Well the nice thing about that codex is options. you can do some serious fun with dedicated or undivided armies.
One memorable battle i did was aginst a guy running an actual black legion force than was led by abaddon and he had khorne berserkers, noise marines, plague marines, thousand sons and summoned demons in the list.
We started this game at about 7:30 am....so i had been at the store since 2:30PM the previous afternoon. since lots of stuff was going on the entire night we deciided to just do another quick and dirty game because of how long we had been there.
This was a bit of a rematch from the game posted earlier in this topic.
I have changed the list up a bit loosing the 2 iron striders, and the small squad of infiltrators for a full 6 man squad of cataphron destroyers with heavy grave cannons and a cognis flamers.
The remade list
HQ domius
TROOP
X6 breachers
X6 destroyers
ELITE
.X10 infiltrators
FAST
.assault drill
HEAVY
.X2 dunecrawler W/neutron laser
.X1 dunecrawlwe w/icarus array
SUPERHEAVY DETACHMENT
.macharius
This time around he did not mishap his obliterators to their death. although one squad got repositioned
Once again killing those chaos gifted predators proved to be nearly impossible with my dice rolling but the real game changer was the grav cannons making short work of all his infantry units since he was running tactical marines and obliterators.
The centerpiece model of the macharius fits the theme (i play lucius FW where they are built) and looks really cool, but it really didn't add much to this battle being little more than glorified double leman russ MBT.
The game went to turn 6 with admech pulling off a win.
I should have lost a few more units....but odd dice rolls happen.
Hybrid 5th ed where the actual tau come out to defend a tau world.
Since i only had a 4X4 of the tau city we ended up using the entire 8ft table
the game 2K points, 5 objectives-tie breakers first blood, slay the warlord, linebreaker.
Codexes used
.admech 7th ed
VS
.tau 4th ed
We ended up using quite a few proxies to get the tau army up and running at 2K points with 6 crisis suits playing the part of broadsides and the other 2 suits being used as commanders r'myr and r'alai
we rolled up the end to end deployment and the game started like this
Our reserves arrive
The game nears it's end
In the end it was a tie with both sides scoring 2 objectives with 1 tie breaker on either side.
The next game was another table split end to end. facing iron warriors with a single center objective .
The chaos player managed to park some obliterators on the objective VIA deepstrike. and castled his army around them. to fend off the tau
An old school 5th ed kill teams game with a twist.-bug hunt
Each player had 250 points using the old rules to build a kill team to fight each others, a 5th player takes the combined points value of 1k for all the other players and throws down a tyranid force.;..that's right an tyranid invasion in the middle of this.
The 4 players were marines, skitarii, imperial guard and tyranids (different hive fleet)
It was a load of fun and the nids managed to keep all the other players off the objective but at a high cost.
This time around we did a 3 objective match with one true objective, 2 bombs and mysterious terrain.
The matchup was harlequins, orks, salamanders, iron hands and skitarii.
It was a fun little battle. my librarian gained horrible scars so now he causes fear, one of my sternguard was wounded by the iron hands kill team and now has hatred for them...additionally he also took a -1 initiative penalty. my scout also gained hatred for the specific skitarii that wounded him.
The table
The opening round
And much closer to the end (turn 4 of 5, we rolled random game length and turn 5 is where it ended with an eldar victroy)
Well kill teams really requires so much more terrain than a normal game so we try to fill in the space as much as possible.
As far as the mat goes, trying to remember, i thought it was a FLG mat or tablewar but i cannot find it there anymore. it may have been discontinued.
I also checked gamemateu and pworks workshop and didn't see it there either.
Now i am really glad i picked it up
I mainly got it for infinity to play paradesio because it was semi rural with some ruin outpost footing blocks
Just Tony wrote:Can we get spoiler tags on excessive image posts? This thread damn near locks up my phone and makes navigating at work problematic at best.
Sorry about that, i will try and do that in the future, i usually post after i get back from the game store when i am half awake from being up all night.
i got in a couple quick training games with a new player who wanted to try out his imperial guard with the old rules (he went 1 loss/1 victory in 2 games)
Then he decided to join in to the big event of the night.
I Ordered a 3d printed collection of 40K themed fortress terrain and it all finally arrived.
I rushed through the painting the night before to get it ready for game night.
This isn't all the wall sections, but all the walls, revetments, and bunkers (not the command bunker/landing pad or sentry guns) only ran me about $120
And it turned out fantastic if you ask me-
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The grand total for all the defensive works were about 1K points
The field looks much better when several of our imperial guard forces filled the works
Spoiler:
Good thing to, because those khorne worshiping nutters brought friends...... very tall friends
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Even though the guard won the initiative the first 2 rounds ended up being more of a slap fight even with the aquila strong point macro cannon throwing D weapon hits around (we were using the original apocalypse D weapon rules so they were not over-powered)
Spoiler:
Chaos breaches the walls! the strong point is open to the enemy! Yet the guard still stands...The kriegsmen rejoice for the cult of sacrifice beckons them.
Spoiler:
P.S. the little armigers torsos are off their bases because of wobbly connections so as not to have them get nocked off and break. so only 1 knight is actually dead here.
The designer is war scenery. they basically have all the dawn of war buildings and some of the old GW style strong points, bunkers and such including the FW great bastion gates-
I ordered mine through the canvas temple store on ebay.
Indeed, makes for a great looking table., i want to get more of the district 12 scenery for my mechanicus stuff...finding space to transport all this terrain is becoming an issue though lol
So a friend and I are both newbies from 9th ed, and are looking at some of the older editions, having gotten tired of 40k the card game. So we were looking at some of the older editions, namely 7th ed. I've got GSC, while he has orks, however we're lacking certain components (namely his lack of HQ since he's not confident in his resin or metal skills), so we've mainly been playing open. So my question is what changes/house rules/alterations would you all suggest to balance things for 7th ed?
ProfSrlojohn wrote: ...So my question is what changes/house rules/alterations would you all suggest to balance things for 7th ed?
There are a lot of small changes, unit rebalances, and Codex-specific things that can help, but for more general core rules changes I'd suggest:
-25% rule: No single unit in your army can be more than 25% of the points value of the game. This is mostly to crack down on superheavies, but it's also useful for controlling deathstars.
-CAD only: No alternate detachments or formations. They may be characterful but they're also often very poorly-balanced.
-30k Invisibility: The 30k core rules replaced Invisibility with an offensive power that makes one enemy unit hit everything else on 6s, which is much fairer.
aphyon wrote: The designer is war scenery. they basically have all the dawn of war buildings and some of the old GW style strong points, bunkers and such including the FW great bastion gates-
I ordered mine through the canvas temple store on ebay.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: So my question is what changes/house rules/alterations would you all suggest to balance things for 7th ed?
Aside from the usual no formations, no invisibility, and no summoning stuff you'd probably want to do something about skyfire weapons or flyer rules - not all factions have flyers or ways to engage them.
Beyond that some factions are just flat out better - the formations used by 7e eldar paled in comparison to many but they were still high tier against the worst of it. It's the same with every edition of course, take it as it comes.
So a friend and I are both newbies from 9th ed, and are looking at some of the older editions, having gotten tired of 40k the card game. So we were looking at some of the older editions, namely 7th ed. I've got GSC, while he has orks, however we're lacking certain components (namely his lack of HQ since he's not confident in his resin or metal skills), so we've mainly been playing open. So my question is what changes/house rules/alterations would you all suggest to balance things for 7th ed?
Welcome to the topic
I find many players new to 40K (8th ed + ) have no concept about how different the game played (or how much they enjoy playing the older editions)
Like others have pointed out with 7th the formation spam really kills the fun of the game there were many things about 7th i liked, but i prefer them in the confines of the 5th ed rule set. fortunately for our group the editions are cross compatible-see page 1 of this topic for what we did.
Also sticking to the original single force org chart is a good way to keep things sane.
The good news is that no matter which of the older editions you choose to use books from they are very affordable usually running around $10 or less for a codex on ebay, and you never have to worry about chasing the meta because nothing in those codexes/editions will ever be invalidated.
So a friend and I are both newbies from 9th ed, and are looking at some of the older editions, having gotten tired of 40k the card game. So we were looking at some of the older editions, namely 7th ed. I've got GSC, while he has orks, however we're lacking certain components (namely his lack of HQ since he's not confident in his resin or metal skills), so we've mainly been playing open. So my question is what changes/house rules/alterations would you all suggest to balance things for 7th ed?
In addition to the 'no individual unit can cost more than 25% of your army points", the other three rules I would suggest are:
1) No Invulnerable Save can be "improved" to better than a 3++,
2) Replace Invisibility with Warp Howl from 30k (One enemy unit is reduced to WS/BS 1 for the turn)
3) Update the Destroyer rule so that a '2-6' is simply "D3 wounds/HP; successful invulnerable saves must be rerolled", with Deathblow removed.
There are some other things to rebalance, such as the relative ease of 'glancing/stripping vehicles' of HP vs killing them with supposedly dedicated AT weapons, or how Grav was the 'anti-everything' gun.
A little update with an epic battle that took several weeks of planning. our 5th ed apocalypse game
The battle of cold steel ridge-the battle for Macragge against hive fleet behemoth.
Calgar was there, the swarm lord was there and the baneblade was there. As per the scenario the defenders of ultramar were hard pressed being outnumbered by the tyranid horde.
The start of the battle
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Doesn't look to bad right?
then everything else dropped on to the battlefield.
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The defenders rallied and pushed back the onslaught at least briefly
a lone surviving kreigman filled with devotion even charged out beyond the wall and charged into onrushing gaunts...and his faith prevailed for he held the line and survived!
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Then the 3rd wave hit
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The outcome of this battle looked to follow the actual lore quite directly.
Next week...we are going the opposite direction with some multi-player kill teams.
H.B.M.C. wrote: *That weird feeling when you realise that you could field both those armies with just your own stuff, and still have tons to spare.*
I really have a lot of 'Nids...
Oh i know the feeling. i never stopped my first love having a large collection of classic battletech minis, for 40K-
between 3rd and 5th i built a regular dark angels army, a deathwing army, ravenwing army, sisters army, nid army, tau army, BFG grey knight fleet, necron fleet, and chaos tzeentch fleet, then i started in on my DIY chapter.
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and then i broke down and built a mechanicus force with mostly 3rd party models.
After my DIY army i have really cut back on 28mm 40K selling off most of it, while moving into mostly smaller model count games epic 40K, DUST, infinity, warmachine, monpoc, castles in the sky, B5 wars conversions using star wars armada scale and star trek attack wing ships, which means of course i replaced my huge collection of GW swag with a game room full of minis from other systems.
I was going to start a thread asking if people are actually happy with 9th edition?
After reading through a number of the posts, I realized I am not alone. Basically, I havenāt truly enjoyed any edition since 5th. And while 5th was by no means perfect, IMO the game has been as enjoyable since. Iām working now on trying to start a game group to play 5th edition again.
I's going to be hard to get some people to step away from the GW indoctrination that you must only play the newest edition, but it is so worth it when you build up a group that does.
I don't think hardcore tourney minded players would like 5th on back though since it focuses more on lore and less on straight comparative stats.
On a side note i just dug up my old 3rd ed rules for the warhound titan, for when it was meant to be played in NORMAL scale 40K games prior to the creation of the first edition of apocalypse.
There was no such thing as D weapons and it makes titans far less scary.
They can move 6" and fire both guns, or 12" and fire one
The twin turbo laser destructor for example is a 72" range heavy 2 small blast S9 AP2 and the mega bolter is 36" heavy 10 S6 AP4 with rending.
Although i think i will run with the plasma blast gun (S8 AP2 large blast 54" range with 2d6 armor pen against vehicles if the hole is over the hull) instead of the turbo lasers
Here is a couple old pictures of an early apocalypse (1st release) where we have the tables pushed together
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On retro battle reports....this is the place for them so post away, you may need to explain the rules a biti for the newer players since 2nd is so far removed from what most current players understand.
I mean the minute you start using something other than D6s in a 40K game it will blow their minds.
Strg Alt wrote: There is the Battle Bible for free on the interwebz. It includes rules, army lists and war gear for all the published factions during 2nd.
Question:
Is there a demand for 2nd battle reports played & posted by the community?
Does it change any of the rules?
I seem to remember a better HtH system floating around (where having more attacks didn't in fact increase your chance of fumbling).
Strg Alt wrote: There is the Battle Bible for free on the interwebz. It includes rules, army lists and war gear for all the published factions during 2nd.
Question:
Is there a demand for 2nd battle reports played & posted by the community?
Does it change any of the rules?
I seem to remember a better HtH system floating around (where having more attacks didn't in fact increase your chance of fumbling).
Nope, they are unchanged. Just a few words to melee:
People easily forget that 2nd provided players with the Overwatch mechanic. While there were to hit modifiers for size, speed, range and cover the odds of hitting models charging you were pretty good.
And heavy weapons in 2nd felt like HEAVY weapons. A heavy bolter would cause D4 wounds with each hit and have ASM of - 2. So even a SM Cpt. (W3) had to be careful.
Now try to picture a scene in which a CSM unit would have multiple heavy bolters on Overwatch covering with their LOS a specific area. Enemy infantry units would be too afraid to even consider going towards that direction unless they were terminators or had strength in numbers. They would need to take a different path or try to shoot at the CSM with other units in hope that they would lose their Overwatch status.
Battle Bible:
I printed it out and bound the pages into a hard cover. It is now one of the most cherished 40K books in my collection. Lol!
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aphyon wrote: Here is a couple old pictures of an early apocalypse (1st release) where we have the tables pushed together
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On retro battle reports....this is the place for them so post away, you may need to explain the rules a biti for the newer players since 2nd is so far removed from what most current players understand.
I mean the minute you start using something other than D6s in a 40K game it will blow their minds.
I would have posted them in the Battle Reports Subforum. My style of doing battle reports differs because I prefer to do pics instead of a video. Though you still can explain what you are doing and most of the crucial stuff can be mentioned by an initial post.
I could prepare a battle report with 2nd rules for the community this weekend. My intention would be do cram all the exciting stuff into it which made 2nd special. So it would contain Terminators (with armour saves on 3+ rolled with 2D6 adding both results together! ), a Vortex Grenade (Yikes!) and chaos worshippers trying to collect summoning points during battle to call in Daemons to just name a few.
Anybody interested?
I know there were day events and stuff at conventions during 2nd Ed but I donāt really remember tournaments being a thing back then at all. Finding someone to play at all was usually a challenge, let alone a group of people!
There were definity tournaments in 2nd ed, both local and official. I believe there was one White Dwarf featuring the two tourney champions playing against each other as a battle report. I think they were both Eldar armies, heh.
Insectum7 wrote: There were definity tournaments in 2nd ed, both local and official. I believe there was one White Dwarf featuring the two tourney champions playing against each other as a battle report. I think they were both Eldar armies, heh.
I still have that issue, and yes, they were both Eldar armies. Different Eldar armies, too.
Was refreshing to see a BatRep that wasn't just what the studio had painted.
Insectum7 wrote: There were definity tournaments in 2nd ed, both local and official. I believe there was one White Dwarf featuring the two tourney champions playing against each other as a battle report. I think they were both Eldar armies, heh.
From memory Eldar armies were pretty nasty. Dark Reapers in heavy cover nailing stuff from distance, then Howling Banshees (who would make absolutely mincemeat of marine squads if they charged).
The only time I saw them struggling was against Tyranid armies, although I think most armies used to struggle against them! Genestealers - oh boy (I think we ended up banning use of 'gate' with a cultist psyker) and the Carnifex was a joke, it seemed to be almost indestructible unless you could somehow get off a close-range multi-melta hit on them.
I remember one game not getting my marines tabled by my mates Nid army (although still losing) and treating that as a massive victory
Uhm, 2nd was in the 90s. This meant no Internet. And I haven't read each and every WD for published tournaments rules. This means a big NOPE!
From memory they were no level 3 psychic powers, cap on max character points, characters no more than 25% of the army, armies at 1500 points. Anyone remember the other rules?
Don't know if anyone's seen these folks but I'm really enjoying these folks Battle Reports for 5th edition 40k. They call themselves "40k Lords of War."
A little more detail about the last couple games we played- everything was the base 5th edition rules set as set out in my original post
We did kill teams first with a single "king of the hill" mode non-move-able center objective.
we had a few people gone this weekend so it was only a 3 way battle with iron hands VS salamanders VS custodes(new list proxied with obliterators)
the battle was very pitched, i have one sternguard vet that has a carry over wound from previous battles that causes him to have hatred towards the iron hands kill team, so he was pretty well occupied with moving towards and fighting with any member of that team he could get at.
The real tough nut to crack was of course the custodes. the only thing that kept my librarian alive was the ability to gate himself away from danger.
I think we only managed to drop 2 custodes the entire match and put wounds on a few more. i lost my vanguard veteran and my scout. so it ended up being a low kill count game all around the iron hands got the worst of that loosing his rhino and 3 marines.
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For the full game we have to break out the way back machine to a time when GW via FW actually designed superheavies to be played in normal games of 40K because there was no such thing as apocalypse/D strength weapons etc...meaning they were not made to be game breaking and were super expensive center piece models.
My warhound titan(dreamforge leviathan that was 1/4 the cost GW charges) clocked in at a massive 810 points leaving me with my dominus a cataphron breacher squad, destroyer squad and sicarian infiltrators.
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My opponent was the classic 3.5 iron warriors list
warpsmith, X3 las/plas squads, basalisk, 9 obliterators and 3 kitted out preds.
The mission was a single objective in each players deployment zone.
Even though i went first there was enough terrain on the table that the first couple turns were pretty ineffective for both of us.
As always when i fight this army i can never kill those darn preds with all those demonic upgrades. i immobilized them ripped guns off etc....but to be fair he wasn't doing much better against my titan. he took the void shields down a bunch of times and did some minor drive damage that my onboard techpriest managed to fix.
my infiltrators came in just where i wanted them and cleaned out his infantry and he returned the favor by taking down all my breachers before they could really hurt his tanks.
It became a draw game because i could not knock his basilisk off his objective and my infiltrators are not troops so no OBSEC.
I was going for an all spider walking army, and i was also feeling lazy. if i had a 3d printer the stuff over on themakerscult for mechanicus style minis is really nice.
Yeah i love the mars factory mat, i got a full manufactorum building from war scenery via the canvas temple store coming this week to finish off the whole mars sector map.
Great threadā¦ been playing a 2nd Ed campaign with a pal recently and itās a blast. I never played 3rd through 7th (I did the hobby drift soon after 3rd landed) but played 8th and it totally killed any enthusiasm I had for the 40k world, so returning to 2nd has been great.
Luke82 wrote: Great threadā¦ been playing a 2nd Ed campaign with a pal recently and itās a blast. I never played 3rd through 7th (I did the hobby drift soon after 3rd landed) but played 8th and it totally killed any enthusiasm I had for the 40k world, so returning to 2nd has been great.
Kind of sad, as 3rd Ed. with the rulebook army lists is the most balanced 40K you may ever play.
Luke82 wrote: Great threadā¦ been playing a 2nd Ed campaign with a pal recently and itās a blast. I never played 3rd through 7th (I did the hobby drift soon after 3rd landed) but played 8th and it totally killed any enthusiasm I had for the 40k world, so returning to 2nd has been great.
Kind of sad, as 3rd Ed. with the rulebook army lists is the most balanced 40K you may ever play.
While workable, 3rd lacks the immense amount of texture available in 2nd. It's why even thoigh I think 4th ed was the best edition for a variety of reasons, when I play an older edition for yuks with close friends we wind up on 2nd. The added detail is more interesting/flavorful/narrative, even though it's "imbalanced".
It's also really hard to guage balance in 2nd because the tactical options are VAST.
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
Having gone from 1st to 2nd, it felt like 2nd was less of that, to be honest. And 3rd completed that half-step, and abandoned what was left of the RPG elements (though left a few clunky legacy elements that still haunt the game to this day).
I found 2nd really cumbersome, though, at least for 40k. On the other hand, it really shined for Necromunda. Even though 2nd was largely smaller in size than 3rd (in terms of number squads, vehicles & characters), it still felt like it was written for the wrong scale. For ~10 models and individual activations it was fine.
Luke82 wrote: Great threadā¦ been playing a 2nd Ed campaign with a pal recently and itās a blast. I never played 3rd through 7th (I did the hobby drift soon after 3rd landed) but played 8th and it totally killed any enthusiasm I had for the 40k world, so returning to 2nd has been great.
Kind of sad, as 3rd Ed. with the rulebook army lists is the most balanced 40K you may ever play.
My pal started with 3rd, so we had a bit of discussion about which way to go. I was quite up for 3rd but in the end he wanted to give second a spin, and it sounded more in line with what we were looking tor (weāve added a few RPG elements to the campaign we are doing) but Iād still like to give third a go, especially if we want to get all the toys on the table.
I should add a caveat as well; my pal and I see balance in any edition / game as being in the hands of the players, and prefer options to play with than cutting flavour in the sake of balance. If something is a bit bent, weāll either leave it out, tweak it, or give the other player a little boost if itās too cool to leave out or change. It is a luxury of having a like minded opponent though, we probs couldnāt do it with some of the other guys we play with who would break the system instantly!
Luke82 wrote: Great threadā¦ been playing a 2nd Ed campaign with a pal recently and itās a blast. I never played 3rd through 7th (I did the hobby drift soon after 3rd landed) but played 8th and it totally killed any enthusiasm I had for the 40k world, so returning to 2nd has been great.
Kind of sad, as 3rd Ed. with the rulebook army lists is the most balanced 40K you may ever play.
My pal started with 3rd, so we had a bit of discussion about which way to go. I was quite up for 3rd but in the end he wanted to give second a spin, and it sounded more in line with what we were looking tor (weāve added a few RPG elements to the campaign we are doing) but Iād still like to give third a go, especially if we want to get all the toys on the table.
I should add a caveat as well; my pal and I see balance in any edition / game as being in the hands of the players, and prefer options to play with than cutting flavour in the sake of balance. If something is a bit bent, weāll either leave it out, tweak it, or give the other player a little boost if itās too cool to leave out or change. It is a luxury of having a like minded opponent though, we probs couldnāt do it with some of the other guys we play with who would break the system instantly!
Fair enough, but I always argue that it's easier to play a balanced/tight ruleset narratively than it is to try to balance/tighten a narrative ruleset.
Possibly, but itās also very difficult to add flavour to a rule set that has been streamlined to appease the nebulous goal of balance. Iāve never played third so am only going off second hand info, but i believe one of the criticisms was a lot of the goodness was removed to streamline the game for tournament playersā¦ nothing wrong with this but in this instance it wasnāt what we were looking for.
2nd is great for narrative as it supports an emerging story with the stuff that happens on the tabletopā¦ I think a lot of ānarrative gamingā that happens now is just tournament gaming with a story tacked on, again all well and good but not really the goal with our games, we want exploding chimeras flipping around the table and vortex grenade tag.
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
WH40K 2nd is a RPG?!
Please tell me where I can find character creation? And how many XP do I receive when I kill "monsters"? Never noticed a way to dive with my army into a dungeon in order to loot it's treasures. Also never figured out how my characters could level up. The absence of a DM is also striking. List goes on...
The thing is with our hybrid 5th edition we take the solid core rules set of 5th but retain the lore based rules by allowing players to use the older or newer codexes that better represent the lore.
3rd and 4th had some of the best codexes for lore based rules for army battle games not skirmish RPG leaning games.
The problem of balance is that most people approach it from the competitive mind set. this is how you get 9th edition and why it is so bland.
It is like chess. it is balanced but it is also identical no matter which side you play.
the joy of BFG and older editions of 40K is that the balance wasn't direct side by side army stat comparison. it was taking the bonuses and negatives of how each army played and using them to exploit the weaknesses of the other faction. as another post put it-it is how your dudes should behave in this setting.
Lets take eldar for example. they have basic human stats for toughness, strength, and middle of the road armor but make up for it by being faster in both initiative and movement as well as being super focused on doing one job very well.
Compared to the GW poster boys space marines who are very forgiving generalist that are just OK at every job but make up for it with better armor, higher strength and toughness.
There is some divergence in themed armies in the older editions like pure deathwing, white scars or blood angels. where they use the same units every other marine chapter does but in a different way with a few bonus rules to represent this. Pretty much every faction had this via eldar craftworlds or ork clans and so on.
This is where the joy of playing the game becomes as much a part of the hobby as painting and modding your dudes
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
WH40K 2nd is a RPG?!
Please tell me where I can find character creation? And how many XP do I receive when I kill "monsters"? Never noticed a way to dive with my army into a dungeon in order to loot it's treasures. Also never figured out how my characters could level up. The absence of a DM is also striking. List goes on...
You done?
Seriously, are you ready for legitimate discourse?
I'll assume so, so I'll challenge your apparent lack of reading comprehension skills by pointing out that the line you quoted had me referencing the hybrid nature. I realize this somehow hurt your nerd gear by me somehow cheapening what appears to be the major focus of your life, but don't respond if you're going to cherry pick or ignore my posts.
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
WH40K 2nd is a RPG?!
Please tell me where I can find character creation? And how many XP do I receive when I kill "monsters"? Never noticed a way to dive with my army into a dungeon in order to loot it's treasures. Also never figured out how my characters could level up. The absence of a DM is also striking. List goes on...
You could just say 'The only RPG I've only ever played is D&D and I lack reading comprehension' and save yourself some time.
Nobody said 2nd Ed is literally an RPG, and even if they did, glib statements about it not having XP or dungeons are about as relevant as commenting that 40K can't be a wargame because it doesn't have platoon organization or call-for-fire rules.
Well I think it's quite straightforward in that 2nd ed. was designed to be played as a squad-level game, while subsequent editions increased the model count significantly and therefore the level of abstraction of the rules. That was necessary if you wanted to have a game playable within a few hours, so just a change of scope really.
I think it's perfectly reasonably to really enjoy both 2nd and 3rd edition as they both give quite different types of gameplay. I'm more of a 2nd-man myself, but can see why 3rd is also still popular with Oldhammer groups.
Rogue Trader was the game that had the RPG DNA still there, but 2nd Ed ditched that.
But 2nd Ed also didn't work very well as a wargame (as much as I loved its vehicle rules). Weirdly enough, 2nd Ed only came into its own when they did give it more RPG elements and shrunk it's scale, in other words, when Necromunda came about.
I do wonder if the lumpiness of 2nd Ed has been exaggerated over the years, it works perfectly well as a squad level wargame. I hadnāt played in decades, and my pal hadnāt played it ever, but after a few small games we were rattling through 2,000 point games in a few hours. I will accept though that we are quite used to playing each other and have a similar attitude when it comes to resolving rules quirks, I guess a rules lawyer could slow the game to a crawl, but thatās true of any game!
I think Pacific has hit the nail on the head though, 2nd Ed is a very different beast to later editions. Which is why we are also planning on some 3rd if our campaign builds to some epic games as the amount we have painted grows (I sold my gene cult army after crashing out of 8th so am painting through a second one, not my brightest moment!)
But 2nd Ed also didn't work very well as a wargame (as much as I loved its vehicle rules). Weirdly enough, 2nd Ed only came into its own when they did give it more RPG elements and shrunk it's scale, in other words, when Necromunda came about.
Huh, why do you say that it didn't work well as a wargame? I played the crap out of it (even competitively in some tournaments) and I felt it worked reasonably well.
It was definitely easy to abuse and do some crazy things, but if everybody was coming to the table with the same expectations it was a total blast.
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catbarf wrote: Nobody said 2nd Ed is literally an RPG, and even if they did, glib statements about it not having XP or dungeons are about as relevant as commenting that 40K can't be a wargame because it doesn't have platoon organization or call-for-fire rules.
I guess I don't really see how 2nd Ed is even half or a quarter of an RPG I suppose.
Edit: Come to think of it, I believe IG had platoon organization and some call-for-fire rules if I'm not mistaken.
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Luke82 wrote: (I sold my gene cult army after crashing out of 8th so am painting through a second one, not my brightest moment!)
Guard do indeed have call for fire in 2nd, theyāve been merrily calling it in on my poor hybrids for a few weeks now! The opening barrage is always a tense moment, waiting for the scatter die to land is like waiting for Caesarās thumb to point.
Insectum7 wrote: I guess I don't really see how 2nd Ed is even half or a quarter of an RPG I suppose.
I don't think it's an RPG. But I also don't see much point in trying to assess an exact percentage of amorphous genres that are only distinct by common convention to begin with (see: Chainmail, a predecessor to D&D and Warhammer alike).
I can see how one would feel that the game was more RPG-esque in its narrative focus and varied options at the cost of reliance on common expectation to curb abuse, in comparison to subsequent editions' refinement of codified army composition, gradual shift away from Your Dudes, and heightened prominence of competitive tournaments (and even there, a shift away from things like 'best painted' and 'best overall' in favor of raw won-the-most-games).
Also, I would very much consider Necromunda RPG-esque, and that was built on the core of 2nd Ed- an easier graft than it would be on, say, Bolt Action, IMO, because the core framework to support its narrative elements is there.
(Really I feel much less strongly about 2nd Ed being or not being an RPG than I do about 'if it's an RPG where's the dungeon??' being a downright stupid criticism, particularly delivered sarcastically)
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
WH40K 2nd is a RPG?!
Please tell me where I can find character creation? And how many XP do I receive when I kill "monsters"? Never noticed a way to dive with my army into a dungeon in order to loot it's treasures. Also never figured out how my characters could level up. The absence of a DM is also striking. List goes on...
You done?
Seriously, are you ready for legitimate discourse?
I'll assume so, so I'll challenge your apparent lack of reading comprehension skills by pointing out that the line you quoted had me referencing the hybrid nature. I realize this somehow hurt your nerd gear by me somehow cheapening what appears to be the major focus of your life, but don't respond if you're going to cherry pick or ignore my posts.
I am just warming up. Let's get this straight: 2nd 40K had ZERO RPG elements. You were comparing apples with oranges.
Insectum7 wrote: I guess I don't really see how 2nd Ed is even half or a quarter of an RPG I suppose.
I don't think it's an RPG. But I also don't see much point in trying to assess an exact percentage of amorphous genres that are only distinct by common convention to begin with (see: Chainmail, a predecessor to D&D and Warhammer alike).
I can see how one would feel that the game was more RPG-esque in its narrative focus and varied options at the cost of reliance on common expectation to curb abuse, in comparison to subsequent editions' refinement of codified army composition, gradual shift away from Your Dudes, and heightened prominence of competitive tournaments (and even there, a shift away from things like 'best painted' and 'best overall' in favor of raw won-the-most-games).
Also, I would very much consider Necromunda RPG-esque, and that was built on the core of 2nd Ed- an easier graft than it would be on, say, Bolt Action, IMO, because the core framework to support its narrative elements is there.
(Really I feel much less strongly about 2nd Ed being or not being an RPG than I do about 'if it's an RPG where's the dungeon??' being a downright stupid criticism, particularly delivered sarcastically)
^I dunno, seeing as it has basically none of the things I typically associate with RPGs It seems kinda fair. I mean, it's also the internets so sarcasm-n-all-that.
I'd also say that the move away from "your dudes" really started to happen in late 4th early 5th, as per many have discussed in the other thread. That's really when options started to drop out of the codexes in favor of named characters, etc. Arguably there was more customization available in 3rd-4th through various means, in addition to more missions with a narrative focus in the BRB and some codexes.
2nd Ed to me is really about a higher local fidelity to engagements. Smaller forces with a lot more detail in their interaction and potential on-table choices.
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
WH40K 2nd is a RPG?!
Please tell me where I can find character creation? And how many XP do I receive when I kill "monsters"? Never noticed a way to dive with my army into a dungeon in order to loot it's treasures. Also never figured out how my characters could level up. The absence of a DM is also striking. List goes on...
You could just say 'The only RPG I've only ever played is D&D and I lack reading comprehension' and save yourself some time.
Nobody said 2nd Ed is literally an RPG, and even if they did, glib statements about it not having XP or dungeons are about as relevant as commenting that 40K can't be a wargame because it doesn't have platoon organization or call-for-fire rules.
YOU can't read.
"Trying to be a RPG". That was the term used. I guess you never played a RPG. Let me educate you. In RPGs a couple of people sit around a table with pen & paper. Miniatures can be used but are NOT essential.
There are obviously much more differences than I presented which you can google on your own.
Insectum7 wrote: 2nd Ed to me is really about a higher local fidelity to engagements. Smaller forces with a lot more detail in their interaction and potential on-table choices.
Right, and that's why I don't see any hard line between RPGs and wargames. If what you have is a wargame system with high fidelity to individual characters, exactly what more does it need to be a rubber-stamped an RPG? Adversarial RPGs without gamemasters are a thing; and it's not like classic Kriegsspiel is an RPG by virtue of having a referee. Progression is certainly a common element, but one-shot D&D games are RPGs and Crusade isn't (...or is it?).
Like I said I don't particularly see 2nd Ed as an RPG but I can understand the point they're trying to convey- that it is about higher local fidelity engagements with an emphasis on narrative, rather than mass battle with an emphasis on competitive play.
Edit: Also I would definitely agree with the comment that 2nd Ed is not nearly as clunky as it's sometimes portrayed, and it's absolutely not like trying to take a cooperative long-form RPG and shoehorn it into the role of a tactical wargame. It has some slow points but it's fine for the intended size of play- comparing what 2000pts looks like in 2nd versus what it looks like in 9th is a real eye-opener. I know a lot of the criticism I've seen of 2nd Ed as clunky or slow-playing is typically used to contrast it with later editions of 40K, but that scale difference makes a big impact on what level of fidelity is appropriate. Especially considering how 3rd Ed massively simplified it to allow for bigger armies, while subsequent editions have increased both the scale and the complexity from that revised baseline.
Strg Alt wrote: "Trying to be a RPG". That was the term used.
Yeah, it was, and then you stuffed that straw man right up as '40K 2nd is an RPG?', followed by sarcastically implying that only games with D&D tropes are RPGs or have RPG elements.
Insectum7 wrote: Huh, why do you say that it didn't work well as a wargame? I played the crap out of it (even competitively in some tournaments) and I felt it worked reasonably well.
Two things didn't work that well, and they're big things:
1. Interactivity. During your opponent's turn you basically just removed models. Cover was just a negative to hit, rather than affecting armour saves (or being its own save, like in 3rd-7th), so if you were playing a low armour army, you just removed models during your turn. The only time you got to do anything during your opponent's turn was HTH combat, which brings us to point 2...
2. HTH combat. That system works on a 1v1 mentality, but unit v unit was bad. Now add a third unit into the mix. There's a reason why the 2nd Ed rules work so well with Necromunda, because you've got 10-15 models per side, and not units rushing into one another rolling individual comparative attacks and so on.
I really do like 2nd Ed, but it was too cumbersome for what it was trying to represent, even with the smaller scale (compared to the double-sized 3rd Ed). And then yeah, there was the Hero Hammer of it all, where infantry basically didn't matter.
Insectum7 wrote: Edit: Come to think of it, I believe IG had platoon organization and some call-for-fire rules if I'm not mistaken.
Pre-game barrage, based upon how many certain weapons you brought, and Comm-Links (proto-Vox Casters) used to call in further barrages. Fun stuff.
Just Tony wrote: 2nd came off like it's a wargame trying to be an RPG or vice versa. I'm of the mind that I like to keep those elements separate.
WH40K 2nd is a RPG?!
Please tell me where I can find character creation? And how many XP do I receive when I kill "monsters"? Never noticed a way to dive with my army into a dungeon in order to loot it's treasures. Also never figured out how my characters could level up. The absence of a DM is also striking. List goes on...
You done?
Seriously, are you ready for legitimate discourse?
I'll assume so, so I'll challenge your apparent lack of reading comprehension skills by pointing out that the line you quoted had me referencing the hybrid nature. I realize this somehow hurt your nerd gear by me somehow cheapening what appears to be the major focus of your life, but don't respond if you're going to cherry pick or ignore my posts.
I am just warming up. Let's get this straight: 2nd 40K had ZERO RPG elements. You were comparing apples with oranges.
The level of abstraction is what I was referring to. Interactions on the micro level vs. on the macro level. The more in depth you get on which system on which side of a vehicle experiences which complication due to damage (Make sure you write that down in your dungeon gui... er, I mean Army notes) vs simple and abstract damage results. Just off the top of my head.
When I think of how wargames I think of macro level interactions. For RPGs I think of micro level interactions. I also picture a difference in abstraction or gradation thereof. I doubt I'm the only one who does.
Also, your skewed idea of what it takes to count as an RPG is laughable. What would you consider Inquisitor to be?
Insectum7 wrote: Huh, why do you say that it didn't work well as a wargame? I played the crap out of it (even competitively in some tournaments) and I felt it worked reasonably well.
Two things didn't work that well, and they're big things:
1. Interactivity. During your opponent's turn you basically just removed models. Cover was just a negative to hit, rather than affecting armour saves (or being its own save, like in 3rd-7th), so if you were playing a low armour army, you just removed models during your turn. The only time you got to do anything during your opponent's turn was HTH combat, which brings us to point 2...
2. HTH combat. That system works on a 1v1 mentality, but unit v unit was bad. Now add a third unit into the mix. There's a reason why the 2nd Ed rules work so well with Necromunda, because you've got 10-15 models per side, and not units rushing into one another rolling individual comparative attacks and so on.
I really do like 2nd Ed, but it was too cumbersome for what it was trying to represent, even with the smaller scale (compared to the double-sized 3rd Ed). And then yeah, there was the Hero Hammer of it all, where infantry basically didn't matter.
@1: Cover incurring a -1/2 to hit is fine by me. As for interactivity I've got to point out that Overwatch happened in your opponents turn, as well as taking part in the Psychic phase, in which both players could cast and nullify powers. There was arguably more interaction in the opponents than the current edition. Definitely the potential for much more (I used Overwatch heavily myself).
2: HTH could be cumbersome, but I tended to find the model counts of combatants rather small. But I didn't play Guard/Orks or other high model count armies. So my particular experience there isn't as you describe, but your point is fair.
The hero-hammer aspects got a bit crazy, I'll agree with that. But it was also a choice. Also later editions have their Lash Princes, Draigos, and now Guilliman/Abaddon/Mortarion/Magnus etc soooo. . . I'm just calling that a wash.
Ah. Yes. Overwatch. The game-killer. The pace destroyer. The momentum vortex.
Player 1: All my stuff's on overwatch. Your turn.
Player 2: Oh. Ok. So's mine then. Your turn.
Player 1: Still on overwatch. Back to you.
Player 2: Ditto. Your turn.
Overwatch in 2nd Ed was horrific. It was horrific in Necromunda too. We made it a shooting skill you had to roll.
Having been playing both 2nd Ed 40k and a Necro 95 campaign recently I can safely say that that Overwatch scenario is a myth, one of those gaming legends that has snowballed in absurdity as the years have passed.
Heh. Well I have rather fond memories of Overwatch because I used it a lot :p. But I also see it just one of the many viable tools in the toolbox during that edition. I was a big user of Blind grenades and Plasma grenades/missiles to for their disruptive capabilities and LOS blocking properties as well.
Also REAL Shuriken Catapults in 2nd ed. A big plus in my book too.
2nd edition wasnāt an RPG, but was so much more characterful than any of the editions that followed, not just in army design but in the way it played too. So many more of those magic moments you always look back on fondly and forge the narrative of your troops. I still have characters now defined things they did in second edition, it makes up there back story. so it felt like an RPG.
Where it went wrong was when douches tried to power game the system. It was designed for like minded fun players to have fun. The rules allowed you freedom to do the things you wanted, but when that was abused the game didnāt work. From 3rd on they have tried to box in and pander to the waac competitive element and thus reigned in creativity. Thatās why I like 8th and 9th. The core rules are like a sand box that you can add what you like to, simple enough to add the layers you want, remove bits you donāt like and make up rules very easily.
Andykp wrote: Where it went wrong was when douches tried to power game the system. It was designed for like minded fun players to have fun. The rules allowed you freedom to do the things you wanted, but when that was abused the game didnāt work. From 3rd on they have tried to box in and pander to the waac competitive element and thus reigned in creativity.
Abuse of freedom was still very much a central thing in 3rd - a lot of little options to cherry pick and combine into something more powerful than their cost reflected.
As editions rolled on and combination options were removed things were simply under or over costed in of themselves, and then formations and later aura and strategem stacking created the out of control combos again.
One of the things I liked about the game around start of 5th edition is that there was little need for a 'don't power game the system' rule - worse case scenarios were lash princes and nob bikers. And then came Cruddace, the 5e guard, and any hope that GW might keep on a level track for a whole round of updates.
To me the difference between 3rd and 2nd was about the scale of the game as others had mentioned. I missed some of the granularity and wacky stuff that could happen, but I vastly preferred how 3e managed close combat, the 2e version was fun for small skirmishes but very clunky for larger units.
I think 3e went too far in certain places, I think to hit and armour save modifiers were simple and would not have slowed the game down at all, and moving to flat saves and cover saves was not an improvement. It also made 3e feel a lot like it was designed around marine equivalents, which wasn't great for marine players when everyone had to meta plan their list with stuff to deal with them and also wasn't great for non marines when you sometimes felt like you were playing a game that wasn't designed with you in mind.
Andykp wrote: 2nd edition wasnāt an RPG, but was so much more characterful than any of the editions that followed, not just in army design but in the way it played too. So many more of those magic moments you always look back on fondly and forge the narrative of your troops. I still have characters now defined things they did in second edition, it makes up there back story. so it felt like an RPG.
Where it went wrong was when douches tried to power game the system. It was designed for like minded fun players to have fun. The rules allowed you freedom to do the things you wanted, but when that was abused the game didnāt work. From 3rd on they have tried to box in and pander to the waac competitive element and thus reigned in creativity. Thatās why I like 8th and 9th. The core rules are like a sand box that you can add what you like to, simple enough to add the layers you want, remove bits you donāt like and make up rules very easily.
Yes I actually think one of the criticisms of 2nd edition was that it removed a lot of those RPG elements (rolling on tables for weaponry/armours, mutations etc.) and the looser overall structure of the game that had encouraged scenarios to be created by players, vs. the organised missions of 2nd edition. I guess it's just as well those people couldn't see what lay further down the road lol...
My experience of people powergaming and going for cheese lists was pretty limited. I think we banned virus grenades, but I didn't ever see any of the horrendous combinations you read about now; the wolf guard terminator squads with assault cannon and cyclone missile launchers, or the eldar guardian suddenly polymorphing into an assassin wearing terminator armour and riding a bike. I think it probably helped that the internet didn't really exist, you didn't have the netlisting and automatic proliferation of math-hammer and 'optimum' list choices, which I think have served to suck all of the fun out of casual, pick-up gaming.
Did a game of our retro 5th ed era kill teams. one of our regulars was back in town so we added some scions to the list. and some chaos. So it was iron hands VS tempestus scions VS chaos (mostly khorne) VS salamanders. 5 objectives of which 4 were mines/boobytraps. the actual objective can only be moved a max of 6" per player turn once found.
Spoiler:
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Nobody ended up winning this one as we managed to kill all the guys on the objective for the full 7 turns the game went.
Then i got in a 2k game of BFG for a little chaos on chaos love.
The khorne fleet was themed running the conqeror as it's BB.
My fleet was mostly centered on the thousand sons, But since i spent the points to bring abaddon i decided to stick him in the planet killer as it was the only appropriate ship for him to lead from.
We rolled up a closing engagement with a wedge VS enveloping fleet scenario.
Spoiler:
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While we were doing that our iron hands player using the index astartes (3rd ED) army list went up against the 3.5 chaos iron warriors
Spoiler:
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From the sounds of the battle things turned brutaly against the iron hands.
The scenery definitely has that retro 'no GW scenery exists yet' feel to it.
Question - do you run a custom FoC or mix old supplements with newer books? Index Astartes Iron Hands were 0-3 elite dreadnoughts and 0-1 HQ dreadnought IIRC.
A.T. wrote: The scenery definitely has that retro 'no GW scenery exists yet' feel to it.
Question - do you run a custom FoC or mix old supplements with newer books? Index Astartes Iron Hands were 0-3 elite dreadnoughts and 0-1 HQ dreadnought IIRC.
I get the scenery from a variety of places, i wanted a factory feel for this table so i got quite a bit of the district 12 terrain that is quite nice, but i also recently discovered war scenery that does STL designs based off of the gothic grim dark 40k style and also much of the dawn of war inspired buildings.
If i had the transport space(and i had found them first) i am sure i would be giving more love to war scenery.
That's the problem with so many game mats of various terrain for various games i play. i have loads of rural farmland type terrain for my bocage table i have for use with DUST 1947 most of which comes from ESLO hobby out of germany since they have such great finished terrain.
As for the FOC
We are playing core 5th ed but the themed lists still apply for 3rd ed index astartes vs 4th ed SM codex traits for iron hands the difference was the HQs otherwise they are nearly identical.
IA allows you to take a venerable dread as an HQ and gives your master of the forge an effective iron halo. where as the 4th ed book buffs the master to have up to 3 wounds and anything they want out of the armory, but you loose the HQ dread. the dread talon troops choice is from imperial armor 11(badab war) so it still fits within the FOC chart with specific restrictions, as well as the master of the forge/iron father unlocking dreads for both elites and heavies. the elites however always must be venerable dreads if you use the IA rules.
aphyon wrote: I get the scenery from a variety of places, i wanted a factory feel for this table so i got quite a bit of the district 12 terrain that is quite nice
It's a definite step up from the polystyrene scenery and miniature christmas tree forests my local group was using in 5th.
aphyon wrote: the dread talon troops choice is from imperial armor 11(badab war) so it still fits within the FOC chart with specific restrictions, as well as the master of the forge/iron father unlocking dreads for both elites and heavies. the elites however always must be venerable dreads if you use the IA rules.
Ah, the 5e siege assault vanguard list, I remember it being tricky with the extra objective.
I did use it once myself with the update pdf right at the start of 6th edition as part of a doubles tournament, Red Templars and Solomon Lok. The siege master could grant the interceptor rule to a single unit - in this case a squadron of hunter tanks. As it turned out the top team were running some kind of Necron flyer shenanigans due to the general lack of anti-air in the early edition and couldn't salvage their ground game (my team-mate was running some kind of deeply unfair Iron Hands 'Smashfather' biker that had in an earlier round punched his way through not one but two non-Iron Hands biker captains and their escorts at the same time).
Ah the dreaded smash captain. i recall our iron hands player using that.
Cannot really blame him though he has always been hands player through thick and thin.
I started out in 3rd with the dark angels myself because it was a great way in 3rd to have 3 distinct armies in one mini dex between the standard marine list, pure deathwing and pure ravenwing. i was new to the game and lore so it wasn't until later that i fell in love with the salamanders. i still have a bit of the boys in robes but not enough to make an effective army above say 1k points i switched my focus over to my salamanders successors in 5th and recently to mechanicus and i cannot be bothered to give GW any more money considering how much stuff i already own, or that i only play 5th, epic or BFG when it comes to GW games. so i pay more attention to terrain now.
aphyon wrote: While we were doing that our iron hands player using the index astartes (3rd ED) army list went up against the 3.5 chaos iron warriors
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
From the sounds of the battle things turned brutaly against the iron hands.
Given it was the 3.5 Chaos codex I'm not a bit surprised...
It was actually dice more than anything else. the IW player has notoriously good luck with dice rolls to the point we make him use other peoples dice and it still doesn't matter. i watched him roll four 6s and a 5 in a row for his las cannon damage against the venerable dreads. It has become kind of a running joke between the 2 of them every time they play. the index astartes lists were made in the same era as the 3.5 chaos dex and are just as viable.
Just Tony wrote: Given it was the 3.5 Chaos codex I'm not a bit surprised...
I think it's just two skew lists running into each other - both lists would have fallen flat against something that wasn't an armour on armour shootout, assuming lists are not known ahead of time. The old 3.5 siren list for instance could have dropped 45 rending attacks on each tank at around 1000pts and they likely wouldn't have even got a shot off.
aphyon wrote: the index astartes lists were made in the same era as the 3.5 chaos dex and are just as viable.
Just from the images I would guess a basilisk, three mutated hull and possibly possessed las-predators (tough as a landraider to the front, more heavily armed, unshakable, and under 200pts), and some regular marines possibly with the tank hunters veteran skill.
Las-dreads wouldn't stand a chance, their odds are something like 5% per turn to deal meaningful damage, half that with cover saves. The predator return fire would be ten times as effective. Luck is always good but with those odds you don't need so much of it.
pretty close, X3 las/plas chaos squads, lord, basilisk w parasitic/mutated hull, X3 las/heavy bolter preds with mutated hull, parasitic possession and demonic possession. 3 X3 obliterator squads.
The dreads actually have a better chance than you think, i used to run a mostly dread army in 5th with 7 + a land raider, the problem lies in how the other player decided to build his list. his fire support dreads had CCWs and he didn't put his ironclads in reserve so he could have them for counter charge units when the oblits arrived among other tactical mistakes i would never have done with my list.
aphyon wrote: The dreads actually have a better chance than you think
Only because the preds have heavy bolters I think, makes weapon destroyed temporarily effective. Then again if he didn't know he was facing dreads the anti-infantry weapons would have been useful.
In terms of chances - 3+ to hit, 4+ cover, 6 to penetrate, 5+ to actually wreck the vehicle, 50/50 every turn for any lost weapons to regenerate and immune to shaken/stunned.
That's 2.5% per dread to do anything that matters, walking up the board into potentially 21 lascannons, a dozen twinlinked or tank-hunting meltaguns, and heavy artillery. Getting into 4th edition falcon squadron odds there.
We do not change our lists when we change opponents. his preds have HBs because we use defensive strength weapons at s5 so he likes to be able to move and shoot all his guns at normal BS. especially when infantry are afoot.
Slight modifier to your numbers, half his dread were venerable with TLLC so 2+ to hit with re-roll. cover saves also varied on the table from 3+-5+ (fortified walls, walls/buildings and trees)
aphyon wrote: Slight modifier to your numbers, half his dread were venerable with TLLC so 2+ to hit with re-roll. cover saves also varied on the table from 3+-5+ (fortified walls, walls/buildings and trees)
Ah, ok. I was thinking of the old 4e venerable dreads(used to play templars) and they were BS4 so he must be using them from a later book.
2.7% rather than 2.5%.
Massed dreadnoughts and other walkers were always a bit hit and miss. In 5th I had a 9 penitent engine list literally run over a khorne army (the opponent thought a 'penitent' list meant I was bringing massed zealots and list tailored for the wrong unit type), but equally i've had things like battlewagon lines literally run over the massed walkers. The old FoC tries and doesn't always succeed in stopping things getting skewed like that.
Tonights game was a table quarters set up, for those of you unfamiliar with the mission objectives. players start in opposite corners with a 24" bubble of no-mans-land in the middle. your own quarter is worth nothing to you but the opponents corner is worth 2 points while the other two quarters are worth 1 each. for a max possible victory score of 4.
This was a bit of a challenge for my force since i am really good at killing marines and vehciles with all those arc rifles and heavy grav cannons.
What really hurt me was the fact my sicarians outflanked on the wrong table side and all of his units did not. darn heavy flamer sentinels and sneaky leman russ's coming in behind me(darn sneaky Creed).
He managed to seriously damage the warhound but i repaired it enough to keep it in the fight.
He still mauled me pretty good taking the 2 side quarters and locking me in mine.
I've played with old edition warhounds before, weren't they four large blasts of cover ignoring, armour ignoring, automatically wounding instant death per turn?
A.T. wrote: I've played with old edition warhounds before, weren't they four large blasts of cover ignoring, armour ignoring, automatically wounding instant death per turn?
Nope that's all post apocalypse stuff the rules we are using are from 3rd when the rules were made for normal games of 40K.
The warhound clocks in at a massive 810 points. AV 14/13/12 with 2 void shields 3 structure an onboard tech for a 5+ repair and void shields come back on a 6+ (they didn't come back on till turn 7 )
the BS is 4 so they shoot like marines and there is a 12" min range for all guns. they get 1 stomp attack at I1 WS1 so they always need a 5+ to hit but it hits everything in base to base contact at S6 AP2 and 2d6 against vehicles.
i was running a mega bolter-12-36" heavy 10 S6 AP4 w/rending so super assault cannon. and a plasma blast gun-12-54" S8 AP2 large blast S8+2d6 for armor pen.
the russes got so close i had to let my breachers deal with them while i killed the sentinels and veteran guardsmen with melta guns.
Some more old edition fun-One of our regular players got to build his dream list, since i own a copy of the 3rd edition chapter approved. the imperial guard armored company.
This was also his first official game of 5th edition.
We did an overrun mission(think of it like a rush map on battlefield 3)
Thematically since it was a guard outpost i let him be the defender, i would have probably done better if i had been, but it would not have looked as cool.
I know that's not what they're representing, but I invented a race for 40k called the Kyarie (even managed to sneak a few references to them into the 40kRPGs!), and they're represented on the table by the Therian AT-43 miniatures.
It's weird seeing someone else using them long before I've managed to organise my Therians into a proper force of Kyarie.
I wish players near me (northern VA) played older editions. My club soundly refused, and as much as I enjoy the burgeoning 30k group here, there's some things about 4th that I absolutely miss.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.
Depends on what you are trying to do exactly
As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.
Depends on what you are trying to do exactly
As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.
Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.
Depends on what you are trying to do exactly
As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.
Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?
Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.
Depends on what you are trying to do exactly
As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.
Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?
Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.
It looks like it, but my list is reliant on it's buffs to Wraith Constructs, thus my questions.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.
Depends on what you are trying to do exactly
As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.
Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?
Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.
It looks like it, but my list is reliant on it's buffs to Wraith Constructs, thus my questions.
I see. So I'm not too familiar with 6th/7th edition CWE codexes, but in the 4th edition Wraithlords and Wraithguard had a rule called Wraithsight, which requires that the models take a test to correctly percieve the battlefield around them, unless there is a friendly Psyker within 6". Since there were no Spiritseers in 4th ed, that makes Warlocks and Farseers the characters that alleviate the woes of Wraith-constructs. So in that sense just using your Spiritseer model as a Farseer/Warlock in 4th more or less means the same thing in regards to wraith-constructs, as those are the characters that support them.
In fact looking at the 8th Ed Eldar book, The Spiritseer and Farseer are nearly identical anyways. In 4th edition your Farseer and Spiritseer are just the same person/model.
Edit: I should add that in 3rd edition Wraith constructs do not have the Wraithsight rule, and there's no way to buff them that I'm aware of outside of the typical Eldar psychic powers.
ProfSrlojohn wrote: Are there any adaptive rules for newer models out there? Namely for 2nd/3rd ed Genestealers and CWE.
Depends on what you are trying to do exactly
As long as it is a compatible codex entry (3rd-7th) it is easy enough to adapt into any edition, we just use 5th as our core. our chaos player uses his hell drake in conjunction with his 3.5 chaos dex.
Just trying to make some new models fit into the older editions, the Spiritseer for example. How difficult would you say it is? Just adapt weapon changes and such? Or is it more complicated than that?
Spiritseer just looks like a Farseer with a Witchblade. I think you're good to go with that, and here's hardly any translation required.
It looks like it, but my list is reliant on it's buffs to Wraith Constructs, thus my questions.
I see. So I'm not too familiar with 6th/7th edition CWE codexes, but in the 4th edition Wraithlords and Wraithguard had a rule called Wraithsight, which requires that the models take a test to correctly percieve the battlefield around them, unless there is a friendly Psyker within 6". Since there were no Spiritseers in 4th ed, that makes Warlocks and Farseers the characters that alleviate the woes of Wraith-constructs. So in that sense just using your Spiritseer model as a Farseer/Warlock in 4th more or less means the same thing in regards to wraith-constructs, as those are the characters that support them.
In fact looking at the 8th Ed Eldar book, The Spiritseer and Farseer are nearly identical anyways. In 4th edition your Farseer and Spiritseer are just the same person/model.
Edit: I should add that in 3rd edition Wraith constructs do not have the Wraithsight rule, and there's no way to buff them that I'm aware of outside of the typical Eldar psychic powers.
The 3rd Ed supplement āCodex Craftworld Eldarā (which had variant lists for the 5 major Craftworlds) contained rules for Spiritseers in the Iyanden list. IIRC they explicitly buffed wraith constructs though I donāt remember how.
That supplement had some cool stuff (amongst some OP stuff):
Spiritseers for Iyander, Seer Councils and black guardians for Ulthwe, Wild Rider Chieftains and bodyguards (jetbike riding melee HQ) for Saim Hain, pathfinders for Alaitoc, and the court of the young king (Avatar and exarchs in one squad) for Biel Tan.
^Oh yeah! I forgot about that supplement. (Also my group mostly played Ulthwe or Alaitoc rather than Iyanden, so those are the bits I remember better).
I probably have that pamphlet-codex around somewhere. I'll have to dig around for it.
Technically, you did have Spiritseers in the 4th ed codex; they were an upgrade for a Warlock that extended the range to negate Wraithsight to 12".
Anyway, I finally signed up to Dakka to join this discussion. I'm just not interested in 9th ed anymore, and would love to go back to play 4th/5th. Most of my gaming group is on board as well, but we're also hoping to retrofit all the new units, weapons, etc that did not exist at the time.
Since I don't know (or simply haven't found) any other online community looking to do the same thing, I figured I'd jump in here and see if maybe we can get something going on this forum!
Radium wrote: Technically, you did have Spiritseers in the 4th ed codex; they were an upgrade for a Warlock that extended the range to negate Wraithsight to 12".
Well I'll be darned, look at that! Neat.
Radium wrote: Anyway, I finally signed up to Dakka to join this discussion. I'm just not interested in 9th ed anymore, and would love to go back to play 4th/5th. Most of my gaming group is on board as well, but we're also hoping to retrofit all the new units, weapons, etc that did not exist at the time.
Since I don't know (or simply haven't found) any other online community looking to do the same thing, I figured I'd jump in here and see if maybe we can get something going on this forum!
Welcome!
I gotta say one of the things I liked about the older editions is that there were fewer weapons. Not that you can't retrofit a lot of the current stuff to fit, but if it was me, I'd try to keep things simple. I'll post my favorite comparison, which is the weapons list for Space Marines in 4th vs. Space Marines in 8th
Radium wrote: Technically, you did have Spiritseers in the 4th ed codex; they were an upgrade for a Warlock that extended the range to negate Wraithsight to 12".
Well thank you! I'll take a look at that, and adapt it in!
Not that you can't retrofit a lot of the current stuff to fit, but if it was me, I'd try to keep things simple.
Aye, I'd generally agree that keeping it simple is the way to go. For example, I don't feel the need to have bespoke options for all the various bolt weapons Intercessors have. However, I'd also like to be able to use some of the new units and armies for things released in 8th and 9th edition, that may not have a good unit to proxy as in earlier editions (GSC comes to mind, but other armies such as AdMech, TS, DG, Harlequins, and Ynnari all lose out to some degree).
The first game of the night was a rematch agianst IG with my admech force suing the old 3rd ed titan rules.
The game-our 5th ed hybrid rules at 2k points
The mission-3 objectives.
The IG player used fortification from the stronghold assault book to make a fitting Ig defense line. with a bunker/defense wall and automated defense turret.
The taurox was a stand in for a hell hound.
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Both sides started with an objective near their deployment zone so we quickly parked some troops on them giving us both a point of control all game since neither of use could knock the other off a point.
Creed had a squad of russes outflank the titan and i counter outflanked with a squad of sicaran infiltrators
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The combined fire (and bad rolls on my part) of the tanks and las cannon teams gave the IG a moral victory destroying the titan
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If the game had ended turn 5 the IG would have taken the day, but a neutral 3rd party rolled us another turn allowing the cataphrons to kick the IG off the third objective giving a hard fought win to the admech.
Game 2
set up-1k points tau VS orks agains same 5th ed rule set
missions-center table objective
deployment-end to end 24" deployment
This was a training game for a guy who had a very small number of tau models and the lack of vehicle really hurt him in a 5th edition game making him to slow to get away from the green tide.
loads of orks died(as one would expect), but not nearly enough. leaving the orks with the objective and the tau player with only some crisis suits left on the table.
Went very old school tonight breaking out some of the minis from my first 40K army from 2 decades past.
The codex i used was the old 2nd edition codex used through 3rd edition since the DAs never got a new dex until 4th.
This allowed me to make some fun army list choices.
There was no master of the deathwing aka Belial in this codex and any member of the inner circle could lead the deathwing, as such i gave supreme grand master Azrael a deathwing command squad back when an apothecary and a techmarine could be in terminator armor.
In other sillyness i used his personal command land raider Prometheus- Angelis Imperator and a squad of fellow legion ...er i mean successors- guardians of the covenant
Spoiler:
We rolled up a table quarters deployment and a kill points match-
the crimson fists ended up going first. which was good for him since it is very much an assault themed army with podding combi-melta sternguard and assault terminators.
We both were having some horrible rolls. he lost most of his terminators to basic bolter hits failing 2+ saves and when my terminators finally got into CC i failed most of my wound rolls of 2+
Still it was a fun game with the fists pulling off a 7/5 win on kill points. tie breakers were a wash. we killed each others warlord, he got line breaker and i got first blood.
And with archeotech spaced armor. there was a time when i owned every singe land raider variant available...then they came out with the ares, terminus ultra and redeemer....Do i need more than 5 land raiders....well yes but how would i transport them?
I once wanted to do a "Land Raiders throughout the Ages" project, as I have the original Land Raider mini so could do it, to the Mk.II that was in Epic 40k (that FW made a kit for), then to the current Mk.III, and throw in things like the Prometheus, Helios and Crusader.
Then they made the Redeemer, and then lots of others, and the HH variants, and it's too much now.
My favorite is still my achilles...but so damn expensive. in 5th ed it is like 350 points. if they had mad an actual release kit for the ares i probably would have had one...oh and the spartan the superheavy land raider.
aphyon wrote: My favorite is still my achilles...but so damn expensive. in 5th ed it is like 350 points
325pts in IA2 2nd edition, 300pts everywhere else.
I remember running one a couple of times in 5th and some armies couldn't even scratch the paint, and in the first game we ran them in a big landraider face-off and it rolled straight over them.
The alpha-variant (still at 300pts) added terrain rerolls and turned the quad-mortar into a quad-missile launcher with rerolls to penetrate, it was a beast but at that point was overshadowed by d-weapons.
Didn't have loads of time for this one so we did a super silly little 500 point game.
SOB (3rd ed codex) VS dark angels (3rd ed codex) with 5th ed rules.
We are going to try to get a bigger game in later but this was it for now-SOB faith was strong and they won the day(and i could not hit them for anything in CC or wound them when i did hit...although the faith points saved the squad fighting my librarian by making their armor save invulnerable).
aphyon wrote: We are going to try to get a bigger game in later but this was it for now-SOB faith was strong and they won the day(and i could not hit them for anything in CC or wound them when i did hit...although the faith points saved the squad fighting my librarian by making their armor save invulnerable).
Witch Hunter Sisters were particularly poor at inflicting damage in close combat, but quite good at controlling when they died with the book of St. Lucius. With the old 'no retreat' rules selective stubborness was about as good as it got.
I have not had a SOB army since 4th ed, i even had a couple FW repressors. great times, still have the codex...and lord inquisitor Karamozov pro painted by an old gaming buddy.
As far as inflicting damage in CC that's why they repentia and penitent engines.
The rest of the army just purifies you with fire/melta and faith (rending flamers being annoyingly effective).
aphyon wrote: As far as inflicting damage in CC that's why they repentia and penitent engines.
I have to assume you haven't tried them yet.
Repentia were arguably the second worst unit around 4th-5th edition, just behind the space pope. High cost, low durability, no faith or transportation, striking last with one attack each and with random compulsory movement.
Penitent engines can be effective but you really need to run into a list with a lack of counters. Meltaguns pretty much auto-penetrate and stop them dead on a roll of 2+ and against infantry they have a bad habit of heavy-flamering themselves out of charge range. They are also steered almost entirely by the opponent so if you face someone who knows what's up your 240pt assault unit will be chasing a 35pt rhino off into the distance never to be seen again.
Generally you might find they do ok in their first outing and then get progressively worse as opponents know what they are and how to deal with them. IMO the 3e sisters best bet for close combat is to have squads ready to shoot the enemy unit after they finish wiping out the sisters they are engaged with, taking advantage of the lack of sweeping combat in 5th.
Been on the receiving end of them many times. i know exactly how they work, my point was even though situational they do hit and do a good job of wounding.
aphyon wrote: Been on the receiving end of them many times. i know exactly how they work, my point was even though situational they do hit and do a good job of wounding.
3e repentia? The 5e (especially with 6e rage) were entirely different beasts between their lower costs, more attacks, and ability to use transports.
The 3e repentia were T3 footsloggers and the 3e penitents were compelled to move towards the closest unit. I actually own 9 of the old metal penitents but at 1000pts for 9 walkers and one medium squad of sisters that can be collectively defeated by a couple of heavy bolters and waved carrots they were tough to get onto the table outside of gimmick lists*
(*specifically 9 penitents, karamazov, repentia, arcos, priests, arbites, and the zealots from chapter approved. It carries the element of surprise if nothing else.)
aphyon wrote: As far as inflicting damage in CC that's why they repentia and penitent engines.
I have to assume you haven't tried them yet.
Repentia were arguably the second worst unit around 4th-5th edition, just behind the space pope. High cost, low durability, no faith or transportation, striking last with one attack each and with random compulsory movement.
Penitent engines can be effective but you really need to run into a list with a lack of counters. Meltaguns pretty much auto-penetrate and stop them dead on a roll of 2+ and against infantry they have a bad habit of heavy-flamering themselves out of charge range. They are also steered almost entirely by the opponent so if you face someone who knows what's up your 240pt assault unit will be chasing a 35pt rhino off into the distance never to be seen again.
Generally you might find they do ok in their first outing and then get progressively worse as opponents know what they are and how to deal with them. IMO the 3e sisters best bet for close combat is to have squads ready to shoot the enemy unit after they finish wiping out the sisters they are engaged with, taking advantage of the lack of sweeping combat in 5th.
I always thought the notion of putting elite troops which were hard to come by into rags and whipping them into combat to be used as cannon fodder ultimately idiotic even for the grimdark universe of 40K. If they forgot to shine their boots they deserve some kind of heat but not a death sentence.
Oh, and T3 troops clad in rags SHOULD be easy to kill. Guess they bought overpriced eviscerators otherwise their point cost wouldn't be so high.
Strg Alt wrote: Oh, and T3 troops clad in rags SHOULD be easy to kill. Guess they bought overpriced eviscerators otherwise their point cost wouldn't be so high.
There was a second eviscerator unit in 3rd edition - zealots. They were a chapter approved add-on for the earlier CA sisters codex but technically still valid for witch hunters.
Even slower, even less armour, and even more expensive eviscerators. And also a better unit as they were comprised primarily of 5pt chaff (at a time when guardsmen were 6), a 20 model strong scoring troops unit with protection against morale tests, and the 4-5 eviscerator wielding models had two attacks each.
I wonder how similar they will be to the new sisters novices.
After a bit of a break we got more of our retro kill team campaign in. tonight it was loads of marines and some guardsmen-iron hands, VS, black legion VS salamanders VS tempestus scions.
This was another relic search with 5 objective markers and 4 boobytraps.
As it turned out the random objective that turned out to be the real one happened to be smack in the middle of the table. causing a great tug of war over the prize, changing hands no less than 3 times. The scions ended up winning the day first by taking down the iron hands in close combat (even guard power fists can hurt marines). and then dropping a chaos thousand sons terminator with an over-watch plasma pistol shot before it could charge in and take the prize away.
We have a guy who is slowly building up his TAU for our 5th ed games using the 4th ed tau codex. we also got him copies of all the old rules FW (from our resident TAU fanatic) for commanders r'myr, r'alai, the tetra speeder, TX42 speeder, sentry turrets etc...
He got a devilfish in so he got his list bumped up to 1k points.
We did a quick game-
we rolled random for objectives and got kill points with end to tned table deployment.
I ran my 3rd ed DA codex with a mix of units.
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He ran both FW commanders with bodyguards, a couple fire warrior squads, pathfinder team and a sniper team. .
It was a silly game, he managed to destroy the dreadnought with EMP grenades and immobilized and weapon destroyed all the other vehicles without actually killing them.
Only the drop pod survived unscathed and Grand master azrael stood alone at the end.
he had both command squads and alone fire warrior left at the end of the game.
I recall tau being a bastion of the oldschool codex style of "here are 100 options, and you should figure out yourself which 10 to pick from"
Battlesuits with TL flamers were one of those unexpectidly useful wargear combos.
IIRC the last revision of the 5th rules had tetras at 50pts each with a heavy 4 markerlight. The local player was more of a massed plasma and broadside guy though.
Yes indeed. the options really made the tau feel like a mobile combat army. in this game because i only had 1 vehicle with armor above 11 he saved points by giving his battlesuit body guards twin linked burst cannons. haywire grenades were more than enough to deal with my light armor.
the tetra rules we have are straight from IA3 original printing so the tetra had a single markerlight and a twin linked pulse rifle+ the vehicle upgrade options.
This was also a time when riptides were not a thing.
aphyon wrote: the tetra rules we have are straight from IA3 original printing so the tetra had a single markerlight and a twin linked pulse rifle+ the vehicle upgrade options.
The 5e update rules are pretty scattered these days but make quite a difference. WH, DH, BT, and DA had 5e points and rules updates for vehicles, stormshields, etc which brought them back into the game and the eldar in particular had a lot of datasheets.
For one of the weaker factions of the era the warp hunter was a hell of a thing (and amusingly the eldar forum posts from the era criticized it for being overcosted at 125pts despite it having a strength-infinite, AP2, cover ignoring, titan-shield penetrating, instant death inflicting, extended range template as a secondary fire option. Some things never change :p)
Had a friend with 3 of those in his army...silly forge world eldar corsair list
Funny enough i was able to take him to a draw in most games we played even though his army was chock full of S8 AP2 weapons between the hornets, falcons, warp hunters and planes.
Well it has been a while since our last game but a new player has moved into the area and after a nearly 10 year absence from 40K he rebuilt his tau army for 40K (4th ed codex)
And we had a good little game.
it was a 2K point game with table quarters objectives.
The outflanking stealth suits came in where he needed them to and sealed the win nicely for him.
So in the silliness of the 41st millennium...there is squats
Well not really i was just re-purposing my mantic forge fathers using a 30K legion list for our 5th ed kill team games.
I was running
*(special skills)
.legion seeker sgt w/power fist/plasma pistol/artificer armor (FNP)
.legion breacher w/gravaton gun
.legion jet bike w/volkite culverine
.tactical support w/plasma rifle
.tactical support w/plasma rifle
.tactical support w/melta gun rifle
.legion heavy support W/auto cannon(relentless)
.legion heavy support W/missile launcher. (Slow and purposeful)
I was going up against schaffers last chancers over a central objective.
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I started out pretty strong, killing 8 of the chancers...before i got tabled to a man. the last chancers are no joke in kill teams.
Last of the year-some fun 5th ed 40K games, our new tau player was trying out some poxies of tetra scout speeders, and a hazard suit.
Game 1 was a 2k game using the 4th ed tau codex VS the 3rd ed chapter approved armored company rules.
The objective was king of the hill-center table objective- deployment was end to end.
2 of the tetras and a stealth squad outflanked while the hazard did a deep strike run. they all earned their pay causing havoc in the guard real lines.
The end turned out to be what you expect with a huge huddle of minis fighting at the center of the table.
the manticore was being run as a griffon mortar.
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Game 2 was kill points with side-to-side deployment
One of the semi-regular players who has only played 8th and 9th edition has joined us to learn how to play his blood angels in 5th ed.
He did a small demo game about 2 weeks ago, so tonight's games are his first full 2k army battles.
Our FLGS has a bunch of custom made tables and at his request we broke out the 2 rock quarry tables.
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Game 1 was a 5 objective battle against my mechanized dark angels.
He stayed away from my vehicles with most of his force staying behind the ridge line on the other side of the table.
so i had to drop in my venerable dreads to tie him up. it was a good battle and he did manage to take 3 of the 5 objectives by turn 6
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Game 2 he went up against another relatively new convert to 5th ed playing tau. both players were proxying a few FW special units. objective wise there were 4 with 2 of them being worth double points.
This became a game of who is faster. there was a bit of back and forth between railguns and doredeo dreads (one died imediately the other made every invul save the entire game).
The real saving thing for the red angels was the vanguard veterans ability to use hit and run to tie up units. Dante actually got stuck in CC with the broadsides for several turns before he finally routed them. the game went to turn 6 with the sons of Sangunius holding 3 of the 4 objectives.
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It was a good bit of fun and the blood angels player enjoyed himself. so, i expect to see more red marines in the future.
2K points admech (with proxy minis from AT 43, mantic and warlord games) lucius forge world VS tau
Objectives were one in each armies deployment zone. with tiebreakers being slay the warlord, first blood and line breaker.
Spoiler:
The tau player got to go first and spent most of turn 1 trying to take out my kataphron destroyers...something about not liking heavy grav cannons.
he did enough damage to make them break from a failed LD check, but they rallied on my next turn.
Turn 1 my assault drill came in and generally annoyed his suits. while slowly moving towards his objective.
We spent the next several turns trying and failing to do any real damage as the dice were hating both of us. he outflanked his tetras, deepstruck his hazard suit as well as stealth suit team and i countered with my sicarian infiltrators. by the end of the game (random roll of 1 on the bottom of 5), i had taken drive damage and lost a structure point on the macharius, lost the nuetron laser off of a dune crawler, lost half the sicarians and the entire destroyer unit, he also managed to haywire grenade the assault drill off his objective.
Conversely, i killed his crisis suit commander, his hazard suit, a couple tetras, and tear some weapons off his hammerheads.
Since neither of us made the prime objectives, we went to tie breaker.
.tau got linebreaker (1) with a tetra in my back lines
.admech got slay the warlord and first blood (2) for killing same said warlord
Yeah, i have a mix of trees, the ones with the big roots are aquarium trees, the ones on brown bases like the strips are gale force 9 battlefield in a box and the ones on the finished terrain with hill and such are from ESLO hobby.
Wanted to give a little update on the status of ProHammer.
Version 2.2 of the ruleset is drafted, which contains a lot of minor tweaks and adjustments. Substantive changes still have a comment next to them calling them out. The bigger change to the ruleset is the addition of a full on suppression mechanic (riffing on an early 4th edition mechanic a little bit), and also structure point (NOT HULL POINT) mechanic for vehicles to protect more heavily armored ones against being insta killed.
Also, we made this pretty sweet ProHammer Gameplay Summary sheet, which condenses all the procedural rules and other key rules in one spot. Should make tracking the flow of play a bit easier.
We finished building out the Mission Briefings set for ProHammer, which has been a long time coming. Still will need some cleanup and refinement, but we're excited about this being fully drafted. For those that aren't aware, the mission set uses six different mission archetypes, each of which has a range of variables that are determined/rolled before the battle starts to determine specifics. the core "control points" type missions you get in 9th are essentially all subsumed under a single mission archetype. There's variables for endgame victory determining versus progressive versus threshold objectives, etc. It's a pretty robust system. I have aspirations of taking the mission briefings and re-organizing them as a deck of cards, similar to the Open War Deck, but setup to work in a more procedural manner.
Next up, there is a Tabletop Simulator Mod for ProHammer, which dovetails with a set of Terrain Generation rules we developed, along with the associated resources in the TTS mod to generate terrain. We've been using this process for over a year, and it's working super well.
Last.... something we've been working on for a couple of months is drafted, which are rules for running a Strategic Campaign. We're super excited about this, and two of us are running a short head-to-head campaign to test it all out. It basically combines 9th editions Crusade's system (made compatible with classic editions of 40k) with rules for running a map based campaign. There are rules for determining, based on the strategic map, what mission's will be played. There's a full system for points-based requisition and resupply of forces, experience traits, battle scars, etc. I'll be posting more about that once it kicks off!
We kicked off our 2-player trial campaign last week. We've played through 7 campaign turns (of a planned 24 - but we'll see how it goes).
Here's the campaign map (using google "drawings" app") at the end of Turn 7.
The basic arrangement is that we each started with 2000 points, and during the first stage of the campaign (12 turns) the fielding limit is 750 points. This meant we each split our forces into 3-4 smaller armies to run around and secure initial points and landmarks on the map.
I'm (blue) playing a Space Wolves and Eldar combined force, known as the Rune-Claw Conclave. Armies #1 and #2 are wolves and #3 is Eldar. #4 is a small infiltrator detachment that can be used for scouting enemy forces.
My opponent (red) is playing a combined Tau and Imperial Guard force. His armies #1 and #2 are Tau, with #3 being Imperial Guard.
The campaign objective is to control key seals of power along the river (the big colored stars). Owning a seal location grants that player Campaign VPs equal to the current stage. You don't leave to leave an army on the point to maintain control, but of course it makes it easier for your opponent to swoop in and grab it.
So far we've had two battles, both on Turn 5 and both being Space Wolves versus Tau. More on the details of these below:
The first battle occurred at the seal location to the far north between Wolves and Tau. It was a pitched battle where we each had secured a cluster of bunkers. Mission objective was two breach and secure opposing bunkers while protecting your own. A tall order with such tiny forces!
Tau Forces
- Commander
- 6 Fire Warriors with deployable smart missile launcher + devilfish
- 6 Fire Warriors with deployable smart missile launcher + devilfish
- Hammerhead with railgun + smart missile launcher
This battle was basically a ranged fire support contest between the hammerhead and the razorbacks, each trying to get the upper hand and/or break a bunker at range. I couldn't move in close with the wolves because the smart missiles and longer range tau guns would shred me on the approach, and the razorbacks weren't strong enough to get in close to deploy the wolves.
There was a lot of dancing around with the land speeder trying to get in position where I could avoid the smart missiles but get close enough to dart of out of cover and pray a multi-melta shot could disable the hammerhead. I had no such luck.
The game ended on Turn 7 in a draw for victory points (neither of us managed to take an opposing bunker) - pushing it into a secondary objective scoring. I lost some of of my vehicles, but I managed a lucky lascannon hit that took out his commander and routed the enemy. Their army fell back following the battle leaving me controlling the seal.
Here was the initial setup. We each had a quarter of the board to deploy in, with our bunkers stuffed in there.
The situation from the Wolves vantage point. Razorbacks with lascannons trying to take out their armor as best they can.
End game... not much shifted over the course of the battle! We each held on and tried to knock out enough points to drive the opponent from the field.
As folk mightāve seen, Iāve embarked on an army specific 2nd Ed Project, but also a wider project of assembling a complete set of 2nd Ed books.
Iām most of the way there (yay disposable income!), and Iāve thoroughly enjoyed the experience.
See, without claiming 2nd Ed to be the best 40K evarrrrr? Itās still my Edition. Just as every person has their incarnation of the Doctor (Sylvester McCoy) for me, everyone has their edition of 40K.
Couple of years ago I set about collecting a complete set of 1st Ed books. I still have them, and theyāre wonderful reads.
But 2nd Ed is when the lightning in a bottle that is 40K was first refined.
Sure, the game itself was still overly complex. Charts, tables, templates, multiple types of dice etc. But it started to rationalise and codify all that had come before from a truly glorious anarchic mess of creativity to a more cohesive setting.
As a result? Iām falling in love with 40K again. I feel enthused and inspired in a way Iāve not in a fairly long time.
I mean, Iāve remained a fan and enjoyed lots of different bits over the many years Iāve been farting about. But this return to my roots, but with actual decent income to indulge is much needed.
And in time, Iām hoping to get some 2nd Ed games back under my belt. Not in a āHobby Hipsterā way. Just in I genuinely loved that era, for a great many reasons.
If, Dear Reader, you too are of youāre own particular vintage, I encourage you to return to your roots. Sure youāll struggle to find organised events. But if you can rope in some other like minded idiots in your area, you might just find getting back to which ever edition counts as your basics and point of origin really quite refreshing and invigorating.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As folk mightāve seen, Iāve embarked on an army specific 2nd Ed Project, but also a wider project of assembling a complete set of 2nd Ed books.
Iām most of the way there (yay disposable income!), and Iāve thoroughly enjoyed the experience.
See, without claiming 2nd Ed to be the best 40K evarrrrr? Itās still my Edition. Just as every person has their incarnation of the Doctor (Sylvester McCoy) for me, everyone has their edition of 40K.
Couple of years ago I set about collecting a complete set of 1st Ed books. I still have them, and theyāre wonderful reads.
But 2nd Ed is when the lightning in a bottle that is 40K was first refined.
Sure, the game itself was still overly complex. Charts, tables, templates, multiple types of dice etc. But it started to rationalise and codify all that had come before from a truly glorious anarchic mess of creativity to a more cohesive setting.
As a result? Iām falling in love with 40K again. I feel enthused and inspired in a way Iāve not in a fairly long time.
I mean, Iāve remained a fan and enjoyed lots of different bits over the many years Iāve been farting about. But this return to my roots, but with actual decent income to indulge is much needed.
And in time, Iām hoping to get some 2nd Ed games back under my belt. Not in a āHobby Hipsterā way. Just in I genuinely loved that era, for a great many reasons.
If, Dear Reader, you too are of youāre own particular vintage, I encourage you to return to your roots. Sure youāll struggle to find organised events. But if you can rope in some other like minded idiots in your area, you might just find getting back to which ever edition counts as your basics and point of origin really quite refreshing and invigorating.
Nah, thanks to Covid I wonĀ“t be playing with fellow humans boardgames. However I may do single-player battle reports of 2nd and post Ā“em here on Dakka, if people would like to see that.
aphyon wrote: Nice to see you are getting some games in even if it isn't in person.
It's funny - we've been meeting up in person again for games - but we've become so used to 40K on TTS that we've just been sticking with that! That said - as the weather gets better in the spring, it will be time to re-start garage hammer.
Battle #2 took place in the open in the central north region of the map. Again, this was a matchup between Wolves and Tau. The armies were different, but the troop composition was fairly similar.
Tau Forces
- Commander
- 6 Fire Warriors with deployable smart missile launcher + devilfish
- 6 Fire Warriors with deployable smart missile launcher + devilfish
- Hammerhead with railgun + smart missile launcher
This was a battle in the open for control over 4 control points that could be placed anywhere on the battlefield. The VPs gained each turn were tied to the current battle round, so points were worth progressively more as the game went on.
Opposing forces each deployed in a way that they each secured one objective starting out, with the other two requiring a foot slog to get in place. The nimble Tau grabbed the objective points early, while the Wolves got into position to charge.
Razorbacks clashed with the Hammerhead in a repeat of the prior battle. The Wolf Scouts got lucky and were able to come in on the side edge right behind the razorback, and managed to knock out its smart missile launcher while razorbacks took our the railgun and immobilized it, leaving it effectively destroyed.
The wolves were able to execute their charge, slicing one Tau squad and Devilfish to shreds while the other traded blows with the Tau Commander, forcing it to fall back and yield the objectives.
Sadly - things started to go bad for the wolves. Despite sitting on three objectives, there was only open ground to cross to close to close in on the remaining forces. To add to the quandary, the Hammerhead repaird the smart missile launcher which it could use from its immobilized position behind cover to lay siege to the wolves positions. It was pretty brutal.
Fortunately for the wolves, the mission ended abruptly on turn 5. They had their rune priest and single Razorback still operational - so close to getting tabled and loosing by default. But the wolves managed to hang on to the points just long enough to seal the primary objective.
Positioning towards the start of the game. Wolves hugging cover while the Tau set up their deployable smart missile launchers.
Tau firing position - not a lot of cover in the sparse desert - and what little there was often negated by the smart missile launchers.
Situation towards the end, before the slaughtering of wolves.
So we took a break from warmachine tonight and gave our grimkin player a taste of 5th ed (he has only played 8th).
The game-
2K points Orks (4th) VS mechanicus (7th)
deployment-table quarters
Objective-moveable center objective
tie breakers-first blood, slay the warlord, line breaker.
We played on the hell scape table, something we do not break out very often, but it looks amazing.
we just treated the lava as difficult terrain (not fire blood).
The rock templates were 4+ cover area terrain, the "tree" templates 5+ cover. and the crystals fields were 3+ cover.
With guard shooting (as most of my army was cataphrons) getting that many boys off the objective wasn't an easy task. he easily ran up and took it after going first.
MVP of the game for me was probably the macharius (ah the joys of playing a lucius themed forge world, i am sure the DKOK doesn't mind us borrowing them for a little bit) because it could actually hurt hordes of orks...unlike last game against the tau where it sat in the corner and cried a lot.
On his side he really enjoyed his lootas. as they wrecked my dune crawlers. and for the life of me i could not hurt those killa kans. it took me all game to kill one of 3. his grot riggas also came in handy as he seemed to really like failing those dangerous terrain tests for his vehicles.
At the end of turn 5 he had the objective, but the game went to a random turn 6. i managed to shoot him off the objective so we had to go for tie breaker. we both had linebreaker but i scored first blood and slay the worlord giving me a narrow 2 point victory.
He enjoyed the game and is looking forward to giving his dark eldar a spin in 5th. he is going to tweek his ork list a bit now that he understands how 5th works. so, i expect to see more lootas next time around and probably a lifta droppa wagon among other things.
Yeah, they were cheap by comparison and look very mechanicus. the other ones i use are the Antares ghar battle suits so i can have an all crab walking army.
Jarms48 wrote: This brings me back. I'm tempted to try out a 5th edition game again.
Doesn't hurt to try, just find some likeminded players who enjoy one of the older editions and try it out. if nothing else you can always proxy whatever models you have.
This is a refreshing matchup you do not see to often-dark eldar VS tau.
The game
.2k points
.tau were using the 4th ed codex
.dark eldar were using the 5th ed codex with a double force org chart as he wanted to use all his talos engines
.objectives-table quarters
This game was something different all right. given most of the DE forces were calabite warriors in venoms you would figure all that tau S5 goodness would just wreck them, but you would be wrong. mostly because the tau play was having some of the worst dice roll i have ever seen. the tau trying to hold ground is not something they excel at. the DE player wrapped around them and pushed them back into the corner. even with the poor early shooting on the tau players part huge chunks of both armies were disappearing from the table.
Tie breaker wise the tau player was in the lead with first blood as both of them had line breaker and slay the warlord. what it came down to was actual table quarter points. If the game had ended on turn 6 the tau would have won via tie breaker, but it went to turn 7 and no matter where the tau moved 3 of the 4 table quarters would have been contested or countered giving the DE player a slim 1 point victory margin.
Funny thing i also noticed. out of all our players who play with us who had armies for our 5th ed game almost nobody had space marines with them even though close to 80% of players run space marines according to statistics.
In the store we had
.tau
.admech
.dark eldar
.nids
.imperial guard
. and one chaos marine player.
Yes, it is. i do not remember what bits he used but he liked the old FW version but didn't want to pay FW prices back in the day, so he modified his own.
I have played a lot of 8th and 9th and while fun sometimes......I just do not like strategems the way they are implemented.
On paper it seems like a great way to shake up the whole "I go you go" format of 40k. But, hear me out, that wasn't a problem in previous editions really. You didn't need a "gotcha!" card to save you from a turn 1 board wipe.......because you didn't get turn 1 board wiped. The speed and range increases over the years have become quite frankly insane. The table is only 6x4, it really should not be like it is. Turn 1 charges are borderline unnacceptable if you ask me. And don't even get me started on the lethality of everything. Tau railguns anyone?
Also people say "you dont HAVE to learn every armies strategems" are just lying. What you think is a smart strategic play can be completely 180'd by a single strategem and it can cost you a unit or even the game.
Also, so many unit special rules and wargear have been removed from their statline and turned into a strategem. This is not very fun if you have more than 1 of any unit as only 1 unit can utilize its special 'thing' a phase, and it costs CP.
They made too many strategems, and their fix was just give everyone a crazy amount of CP. I honestly have no idea how they can fix this without a complete edition reset. Am I just crazy or does anyone else dislike this?
Well Don, if you go back to the very start of this topic, on page one. we make it quite clear how our group, and from the responses many others, feel about GW turning 40K from a strategy based Napoleonic wargame into a quasi collectable card game where everything is very sanitized and samey for the sake of tournament play balance.
We have in effect done a fan edition reset. every game system plays different so i have no problem with my 40K being a igougo system as i have plenty of other games i play with alternate play activation systems. keeping 40K what it was meant to be was very easy to do. GW made some great rules in the compatible editions (3rd-7th where the lore had been solidified by the end of 3rd) but they never put them all in the SAME edition. As the first page post pointed out we did not create any of our own rules in our FLGS group. we just put a few of the best rules for certain things into the edition that had the best overall core rule set. 3rd and 4th edition codexes/supplements have the best thematic rules for most armies with a few exceptions. It makes the armies feel like they are your dudes playing IN the 40K setting. This goes back to the attitude of the player base. for us the journey to the end of the game is why we play it, the silliness, the epic fights etc.. not the win/loss record.
If you have the right mindset the older editions of 40K are a fantastic game. if you were a tournament player it was a terrible game because it was not meant to be balanced. it was meant to be thematic.
Keep in mind all the people who wrote the lore and created the setting (as an over the top parody) as well as wrote all the thematic rules are gone from GW. retired, free lance, started their own game companies etc..
The people running things now do not even understand their own universe much less what the game is supposed to be. As such they have swung into full sanitized mirrored balanced tournament play as the main goal of the current system. with a power bump for each new release to push model sales.
I have been reading the thread and I do like the ideas here. The very nature of the game makes it almost impossible to balance for every scenario, so boiling it down to cater to tournament players seems like a fools errand. I do like being competitive and bringing strong lists sometimes, but the appeal to me was always the narrative of the army I built play out on the tabletop.
I can't deny my love for some of the things they have made over the years, particularly the Morkanaut and the Squigbuggy, lol, but there is so much book keeping and point tracking for a single game of 40k. The secondary objectives make every mission feel incredible samey as well.
I do have some old books and I might try to get my friends to play 3rd or something idk.
And not everyone has left GW. Part of the reason Age of Sigmar isnt in a sinking ship like 40k is Phil Kelly being in charge of it. That's a man that understands narrative.
Keep in mind there is a difference between competitive and tournament.
All war games by their very nature are competitive, but not all of them require a tournament mind set.
I have done games against many of the lists that were at the time considered the tournament power builds. the game mechanics (and adequate terrain) allowed me to use terrain and objectives to often times perform well against said lists as well as beat them. One of my fellow regular players back in 5th ed had the "dreaded" FW corsair army with hornets, warp hunters and such. It was a challenging list to fight and was always a good battle, but 90% of the time i would take him to a draw.
The great thing about the older editions is also the fact that most of the books are cheap and easy to find, and GW will never screw with them again.
Also if you take a look through the older editions there are actually quite a few different missions aside from the core ones (table quarters, d3+2 objectives, mysterious objectives, king of the hill objective, moveable objectives, deployment zone defend/capture objectives etc..) that can be the framework for normal games. the 4th ed rulebook has quite a few ideas in the combat patrol/kill team section that can be "enlarged" for full scale army battles.
I also like the fact that the previous editions have default alternate win conditions aside from the main objectives as well as the fact that the objectives are not scored until the end so you always have a reason to keep playing. it gives players the ability to squeak out a win at the end even if they are loosing the body count battle. this is especially true after 5th ed introduced random turn length games. that extra 6th or 7th turn has made many games come to a completely different outcome from where it was at, had it finished on turn 5.
With 9th i watched so many games where the game just ended on turn 3 because one player was just so far ahead on points there was no reason to keep playing.
I did not know Phil was still around, but i was never a big AOS or WHFB player so i have not given it much attention other than to enjoy the look of the nice model kits for the sky dwarves.
A little twist tonight. i broke out a model that hasn't seen the table since 5th ed-
Inquisitor lord Karamazov. i took him and an eversore assassin (3rd ed witch hunters) in my admech list as allies. (7th ed)
The admech army of cataphrons, , sicarian infiltrators, dune crawlers an assault drill and the allies above.
Spoiler:
The dirty knife ears-
Spoiler:
.The mission-defend/capture an objective in your enemy deployment zone
.points-2k
Eldar went first. the heavy weapon shooting against my vehicle was lacklust across the game, but those poison weapons really did a number on my breachers/destroyers. unfortunately my outflanking sicarians came in on the wrong end of the table from where i needed them. the game went a full 7 turns as the admech was slowly ground down. .
unfortunately the eversore died to a blaster on overwatch so he didnt do much, other than explode of course.
Big thanks again to Mezmorki for his pro-hammer steam workshop module for tapletop simulator
a buddy i have gamed with for years from austrailia was always interested in 40K but was turned off by the cost (especially bad in australia)
thanks to TTS he got in his first game of 5th ed.
For his first army he went with blood angels
his first go was
.astorath
X2 death company squads
X2 terminator chaplains
X2 deathcompany dreads
X1 librarian dread
X2 land raider crusaders
X1 whirlwind
I put him up against my 4th ed nid army
X2 brood lord
X2 gene stealer broods
X2 leaping warrior broods
X2 carnifexes
X1 squad of 3 zoanathropes.
We had to sub in a few models we could not find the assets for (or we forgot to grab the correct ones)
But this is how the armies looked-
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
We did a very simple setup
dawn of war 12" deployment with kill points.
Spoiler:
I flanked with the stealers and did some good damage. the brood lords manged to drop all of his dreads and a land raider. pver the course of the battle. on his side astorath was just a beast.
It has been a while since we have gotten back to some classic 40K. classic battletech and warmachine has been dominating the games at the store of late.
One of our ORK players wanted to test out some of the old FW goodies with is 4th ed codex list so we did some proxying for his custom battle fortress and lifta wagon.
I am going off memory here as to his list but if i got it correct he had
.big mek w/mek tools
.warboss zahdsnark 'da rippa
.X2 squads of shoota boys
.X2 nob biker squads
.15 man strong mob of lootas
.custom battle fortress
.lifta wagon.
At his request for the lifta wagon i brought quite a few vehicles for him to toss around.
My list (salamanders 5th ed SM codex + FW badab war book)
.master of the forge with servitors
.brey'arth ashmantle in lucius drop pod
.tac squad in a las/plas razorback
.scout squad in a land speeder storm
.assault squad
.ironclad dreadnought
.deathstorm drop pod with assault cannons
.relic predator with melta cannon/heavy flamer sponsons (because i am a salamanders player )
.land raider achilles
The table was set up as a space marine outpost ala dawn of war thanks to some fine 3d printed terrain from war scenery.
We went with a center "king of the hill" objective and rolled a random table quarters deployment.
The game quickly devolved into a center of the table rolling melee with a squad of bikers mixing it up with the assault squad. then the squads of shoota boys and the ironclad joined into the frey.
He managed to score first blood by taking out the deathstorm and sent his warboss and other bikers after the tac marines. the shoota boys mopped up the last of the assault marines but got on the wrong end of the dread. turn 1 i disabled the lifta and his big mech spent most of the game getting it working again (more on that later).
The predator was kept out of the fight most of the game by being stunned and them immobilized (curse my 18" melta cannon range). brey'arth dropped in and took out the warboss and helped the tac marines finish off the nob bikers. the last turn ended up being turn 5 but we didn't know that at the time of course so he did his best to take my forces away from the objective. his loota (MVP for the game BTW) shot the land speeder off the objective and since the predator was already immobile he decided to toss the dread. i was already immobilized as well but it was sitting to close to the objective if the game had gone to turn 6. the lifta did a random toss and ended up pulling the dread directly towards the lifta wagon 13"s and also ripped off an arm.
Then the game ended with nobody holding the primary objective so going to tie breaker it also ended up being a tie first blood VS slay the warlord.
The ORKs had a good fight so it was a win for them in the end no matter what. and the looters were shiny as i mentioned earlier. in 5 turns only once did they get less than 3 shots per volley. (that's 45 per turn for those counting).
I'm hoping to see some more chaos on the table soon. the ork player has a thousand sons force he is having an urge to try out and our khorne player looks to be back to a somewhat regular schedule.
My planned game against the orks didn't happen this weekend but i did get a small 800 pointish game in against dark angles fighting over a center objective.
My 2 favorite chapters fighting each other....what could be more fun.
i sent my scouts around the side to go after his gun line while i dropped brye'arth into the middle of the frey. he ended up getting immobilized and losing an arm, but he managed to thin out the enemy enough for the tactical squad move up and score the objective, the game ended on turn 5 with a random roll.
i have better pictures of it up on my terrain topic. the Tau themed terrain mat if from frontline. i started gathering terrain for before i got into 3d printing. some of the buildings are from brigade models and the larger hard foam stuff is from the late antenocitis workshop. the newest additions are from sacrusmundus's 3d print files.
My jam is Warhammer 40000 2nd Edition (old Necromunda too) - Love the mayhem of the game, the models of the time are really great looking (not that I would stop anyone trying out 2nd ed with new models), you can have techmarines try to fix and fire a lascannon sponson on a tank mid game, weapons/tanks/large daemons feel like they are going to do what you expect and not be struggling with a few guardsmen ... oh also the Orks are amusing and colourful.
Did try out 3rd edition but it changed too many things so never really went beyond that edition. Couldn't get past grenades don't get thrown anymore, orks can't shoot properly, greater daemons can be killed by basic troops and a whole host of other streamlining that didn't seem right to me. Also more form a lack of time the armies of today seem to need hundreds of troops, just overkill to me.
Did try out 8th Edition Kill Team which was interesting but lacked something to my mind.
Spoiler:
Old and new Tyranids heading to the Eldar line (orks and nurgle were involved too in this 4 way match).
We play multiple boardgames and wargames so getting the old edition on the table is quite rare - setup and time to play is always a factor. On the odd occasion we have it has been fun, but I'm the only one actively painting up models etc so it's limited thing.
As for how to play it, we try to go with 1500 points. Keep the characters to sensible levels and have narrative take priority over the win. Also have a a short banlist on a few cheese wargear/weapon combinations, not that anyone has tried to do that the way we play.
My ork army that has been painted, amazing what a lockdown can do for getting things painted. Eldar, Nids and Chaos are in various stages of being painted, ragtag bunch of space marines and imperial guard exist in my collection but not really tried to put them together as a force.
Spoiler:
Yep, same photo I posted in the other thread about older 40k games.
Oh yeah 2nd Edition allowed Ogryns (Ogres) in an Ork army, fun times
One of the guys got the heresy box and wanted to do a smallish 30K game. he is playing world eaters. since he didn't have a bunch of stuff he ran a couple characters, contemptor dread, spartan and some bolter squads. i proxied a bit but fortunately i have quite a few minis that are usable in 30K.
i ran a mortis dread, doredeo dread, cassian draco as my HQ a land raider achillies as well as a tactical fire support squad and an assault jump squad.
As it seemed accurate, we ran an assault objective to capture in my deployment zone. His overall lack of AT really showed, so he is working to get list laser destroyer put together for our next game. he was however winning the close combat side of the game.
Looks like some other kits cut up and glued back together in the rough shape of a walker.
Some of it looks pretty Tau, but I'm trying to place the back. It looks familiar, but I can't name the kit.
I played in 5th ed starting right before imperial guard got their codex and played for about a year or so (using card stock circles and squares heh). I picked the game back up a few months ago with TTS (and got really into customizing the 3d models).
I'd say I enjoyed 5th a lot more than 9th (even before the 5th ed gaurd codex came out). As an imperial guard player, I really miss my pie plates and scatter dice. I know the complaints against them, but there was something special about the tactileness (not to be confused with tacticalness) combined with the added chaos (with a little C ) of the scatter. I also miss the old moral rules where units would run away. Also the considerably lower complexity of the rules back then.
What I don't miss: having my tanks sit around useless for the entire match due to crew shaken lol.
All that said, I'm a sucker for the new shiney and I'm unenthused at the thought of "just playing 5th" forever. So instead I moan about it here
DeadliestIdiot wrote: I played in 5th ed starting right before imperial guard got their codex and played for about a year or so (using card stock circles and squares heh). I picked the game back up a few months ago with TTS (and got really into customizing the 3d models).
I'd say I enjoyed 5th a lot more than 9th (even before the 5th ed gaurd codex came out). As an imperial guard player, I really miss my pie plates and scatter dice. I know the complaints against them, but there was something special about the tactileness (not to be confused with tacticalness) combined with the added chaos (with a little C ) of the scatter. I also miss the old moral rules where units would run away. Also the considerably lower complexity of the rules back then.
What I don't miss: having my tanks sit around useless for the entire match due to crew shaken lol.
All that said, I'm a sucker for the new shiney and I'm unenthused at the thought of "just playing 5th" forever. So instead I moan about it here
I stuck with 3rd and Guard are a decently rewarding army.
All that said, I'm a sucker for the new shiney and I'm unenthused at the thought of "just playing 5th" forever. So instead I moan about it here
That is true of any game, if you only play one system eventually you will burn out. i learned that lesson after building 7 different 40K armies. i was searching for variety. in the end playing different systems scratches that itch.
Currently i mostly play 40K in the 5th edition variety, however i also play warmachine, battletech, DUST 1947, BFG, and epic 40K on a pretty regular basis. since they are all very different rule sets i get my variety that way.
Depending on your local scene you can look to systems like those or infinity, bolt action, flames of war/team yankee, malafaux, kings of war etc....
necrons VS salamanders/demon hunters 5th ed VS 5th ed/3rd ed codexes 2K points 5 objectives.
This is an infantry battle.
sure there were some vehicles, but i put out most of my infantry and he put out even more.
i had 46 bodies, 1 emplacement and 3 other vehicles on the table.
Spoiler:
He had 69 bodies and 4 vehicles
The deployment looked like so-
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
The first couple turns we kind of plinked at each other only killing a couple guys each side.
By the end of turn 3 & 4 however i had neutered most of his heavy vehicle guns.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Then i managed to get into close combat. the immortals fighting the assault squad really didn't see much progress, the GKs however were doing a good bit of hurt...he just kept rolling fantastic on his "we'll be back" rolls.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
I outflanked some scouts onto an objective, and he shot the tac squad off of one of mine, to break the tie he moved one of his tomb stalkers back to take a second open objective winning the game by a score of 1 to 2.
Necrons were one of the stronger factions in 5e - I recall the local players win rate went significantly up with the new book, and his skill level went significantly down.
Surprised it wasn't a bloodbath with the doomsday arks throwing pieplates around while the barge and stalkers pushed up on the skimmers.
We were both having some bad scatters with the templates and/or good cover rolls. i only connected with the conversion beamer once. the only one hitting decently was the scout heavy bolter firing the submunition round. not that it mattered with the lord/rezorb in the squad getting them all back up on a 4+
The quad las vengeance battery was doing work for me. the first few turns it was hitting like a champ even with needing 5+ (twin linked) to hit. conversely his tesla weapons were doing work for him often giving him more hits than he had shots.
Also, it WAS a blood bath. i stated the battle with 46 bodies and 4 vehicles- i came away with 2 disabled land speeders (the other 2 he never shot at) and only 16 bodies.
He had 28 bodies and all his vehicles, but they all had taken some weapon destroyed damage
Sadly Matt Ward broke the necrons with that codex. The Grey knights was wasn't to far behind. While I didn't care much for the new necron background ( aka tomb kings in SPACEEEEEEE!!!!!! basically) a good friend of mine had a cron army. Once this book came out he started to stomp people especially my poor poor Sisters of battle who where still using their 3rd edition codex.
Looks like a fun game. I miss playing 5th edition. I had a SM army then I traded for a IG army which I loved until leafblower came along and nobody would play against guard even if you weren't running leafblower. I also had a Elysian army which was a blast as long as I could use my vultures and thunderbolts.
such good times playing playing games workshop stuff from 1990-95ish then I got back into it around 2006-7ish. I really miss epic though. it was the best game imho that GW ever made. Especially 2nd edition. I loved the company cards.
I loved reading the battle report. I wish more people did them but I understand it takes a lot of time, effort and pictures to make a really good one. A lot of people just don't have that time.
I did not have any problem with the necron codex, in fact i think it was needed to make them a bit less than a 2 dimensional army.
All though 3rd and 4th they were rarely seen and when they were there were only 3 builds-massed warriors, massed destroyers or massed monoliths.
The problem with the the 5th ed GK codex is that it destroyed the lore about what the GKs are-
It tried to make them into a stand alone full space marine chapter and not a specialized chamber militant strike force under the auspices of the ordo malleus specifically to fight chaos aligned forces and demons. the demon hunters codex was a specific counter to the best chaos codex ever made (3.5).
In the time we have been running our hybrid games of 5th we have used codexes from the various edition against each other without incident for some really great games. None that i can remember have ever been one sided battles.
aphyon wrote: I did not have any problem with the necron codex, in fact i think it was needed to make them a bit less than a 2 dimensional army.
It was peak memetic Matt Ward codex creep, to the point where he was codex-creeping 6th edition while still in 5th edition (Crons came in hot with all of their fliers, effects that triggered off snapshots, the gauss/hull point interaction, mindshackle challenges, etc.
3e Crons were the most one-dimensional army ever though.
(in Wards defense, as bad as his end of edition books were the 5e Marine codex was actually fairly reasonable - Cruddace and Kelly started the rot with Guard and Wolves)
aphyon wrote: the demon hunters codex was a specific counter to the best chaos codex ever made (3.5).
A lot of their stuff was tied up in wargear that you would never take outside of a pre-arranged game as they were points down the drain unless you ran into the specific thing they countered (i.e. blessed hull vs mutated hull).
They had the tools to deal with outright shenanigans like the siren prince but they were roadkill against the regular gunline style lists.
Their apocalypse formation was the pinacle of awesome though - you could not deploy any of the units until your opponent had at least one greater daemon on the board, and if at any point your chaos opponent had been knocked out of the game you were required to give him all of your models so that he could carry on playing with them instead.
(seriously - look around for m1180075_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Grey_Knights_Redeemer_Force.pdf)
3e Crons were the most one-dimensional army ever though.
Hard disagree. While you could certainly make reasonably effective one dimensional builds, there were multiple ways to play that book, including fairly mixed forces that didn't fall into the heavy skew.
Insectum7 wrote: Hard disagree. While you could certainly make reasonably effective one dimensional builds, there were multiple ways to play that book, including fairly mixed forces that didn't fall into the heavy skew.
From a 5e perspective - Lords, warriors, scarabs, wraith, destroyers, and monoliths
Only the lord had a warscythe and resurrection orb wargear list to pick from and only the warriors scored.
They certainly had list building choices, but not many of them.
Insectum7 wrote: Hard disagree. While you could certainly make reasonably effective one dimensional builds, there were multiple ways to play that book, including fairly mixed forces that didn't fall into the heavy skew.
From a 5e perspective - Lords, warriors, scarabs, wraith, destroyers, and monoliths
Only the lord had a warscythe and resurrection orb wargear list to pick from and only the warriors scored.
They certainly had list building choices, but not many of them.
Well I didn't play them in 5th, only 3rd/4th. And I'd certainly add Flayed Ones, Heavy Destroyers, Immortals and Tomb Spiders to that list. Plus the Veil of Darkness for the Lord. The lack of equipment options never bothered me though. I felt it was in-character. Certainly better character than what came after.
Insectum7 wrote: Well I didn't play them in 5th, only 3rd/4th. And I'd certainly add Flayed Ones, Heavy Destroyers, Immortals and Tomb Spiders to that list
The heavy emphasis on scoring troops choices in 5th pretty much pushed out the immortals, and flayed ones to some degree along with increased mechanisation.
3e Crons weren't going to 'leafblower' anyone off the table so building for objectives and killpoints (and not getting phased out by the ever increasing lethality of the game) did shrink the list options somewhat when the new edition hit.
You have a funny way of spelling "most imbalanced"...
We discussed this at length earlier in this thread....it's ok, you can be wrong.
The heavy emphasis on scoring troops choices in 5th pretty much pushed out the immortals, and flayed ones to some degree along with increased mechanisation.
We fixed that problem by including the OBSEC rules. everything is scoring (immobilized vehicles, and flying aircraft cannot score) but troops can take objectives from non troops choices. it still encourages troops but doesn't completely handicap your army.
Insectum7 wrote: Well I didn't play them in 5th, only 3rd/4th. And I'd certainly add Flayed Ones, Heavy Destroyers, Immortals and Tomb Spiders to that list
The heavy emphasis on scoring troops choices in 5th pretty much pushed out the immortals, and flayed ones to some degree along with increased mechanisation.
3e Crons weren't going to 'leafblower' anyone off the table so building for objectives and killpoints (and not getting phased out by the ever increasing lethality of the game) did shrink the list options somewhat when the new edition hit.
5th ed Morale rules hit them hard too. Ld modifiers in CC were brought about through number of casualties rather than outnumbering, which was very-not-good for Crons, as the chances of getting Sweeping Advanced increased dramatically, and they couldn't WBB after that.
You have a funny way of spelling "most imbalanced"...
We discussed this at length earlier in this thread....it's ok, you can be wrong.
The only ones singing the accolades of that book were the ones NOT playing against it... it's okay, you can be wrong.
Except.....i do play against it STILL and it isn't anywhere near as bad as you seem to think.
I have fought most often against khorne berserkers and iron warriors. but even so, i have done battles against it with the 5th ed SM codex and the 7th ed ADMECH codexes, but i have also seen it face off against the 3rd ed IG armored company among other lists and everything is just fine.
What it has is options and encourages players to play in accordance with the in-universe lore. It feels like a proper chaos force.
aphyon wrote: Except.....i do play against it STILL and it isn't anywhere near as bad as you seem to think.
It's contextual - the futher you take the 3.5 codex away from 3rd edition the less it dominates. Being able to take one extra heavy support option becomes rather meaningless after a point, and while a siren prince may still be an unkillable flying unit summoning daemons straight into combat it rather loses its teeth when your opponents army has codex-creeped to twice the size, is mechanised and/or flying, and consolidation between combats is gone allowing more static armies to simply castle up.
A bit like the 4e eldar codex - in 4th edition they were absurdly dominant while in 5th edition they were roadkill.
Just Tony wrote: No, you'd be wrong there. Khorne's shenanigans were the worst part of that book.
Well, ignoring the fact that Lash wasn't even in the 3.5 'Dex, Khorne units in the 3.5 'Dex jumped out of their Rhinos if you rolled a 1 at the start of the turn.
You could lean Khorne units around by the nose with some careful positioning. I once used a Demolisher to keep a massive Glaive Prince away from my squishy Guardsmen all game just by keeping it a tiny bit closer.
Khorne were great, but they weren't the powerful thing in that book. Not by a long shot.
Just Tony wrote: No, you'd be wrong there. Khorne's shenanigans were the worst part of that book.
Well, ignoring the fact that Lash wasn't even in the 3.5 'Dex, Khorne units in the 3.5 'Dex jumped out of their Rhinos if you rolled a 1 at the start of the turn.
You could lean Khorne units around by the nose with some careful positioning. I once used a Demolisher to keep a massive Glaive Prince away from my squishy Guardsmen all game just by keeping it a tiny bit closer.
Khorne were great, but they weren't the powerful thing in that book. Not by a long shot.
Yep, you got me or whatever. Most balanced and fair codex ever made, the template by which all other codices should be done.
Khorne units in the 3.5 'Dex jumped out of their Rhinos if you rolled a 1 at the start of the turn.
Being inside the transport means they are not on the table and thus are not affected by blood frenzy...although blood frenzy has led to some seriously fun silliness in our games.
A bit like the 4e eldar codex - in 4th edition they were absurdly dominant while in 5th edition they were roadkill.
Except not.....the 4th ed eldar codex is the one we use in our 5th ed games, and again it works just fine and isn't handicapped. but then we are playing more thematic 40K and not trying to squeeze every bit of powergaming out of the system.
I didn't, actually. And speaking of things that didn't happen...
Just Tony wrote: Most balanced and fair codex ever made, the template by which all other codices should be done.
I certainly didn't say anything like that.
aphyon wrote: Being inside the transport means they are not on the table and thus are not affected by blood frenzy...although blood frenzy has led to some seriously fun silliness in our games.
Nope.
"At the start of their Movement phase, roll a D6 for each unit or independent character suffering from Blood Frenzy (do not roll for vehicles, Dreadnoughts, bikes or models using Daemonic flight) to see if they are gripped so strongly by the frenzy that they must rush towards the enemy. On a 1 or 2 they advance a normal move +D6" towards the nearest enemy instead of moving normally. If mounted in a transport they will disembark before moving." - 3.5 Codex, page 47.
It matters-any rule that conflicts with 5th ed core rules is ignored unless a special exception was made/agreed upon or an equivalent USR already exists in 5th.
It prevents things like eldar casting powers while inside transports like in previous editions, although our khorne player might think it would be funny i'll ask him if he wants to give it a go next time we play.
aphyon wrote: Except not.....the 4th ed eldar codex is the one we use in our 5th ed games, and again it works just fine and isn't handicapped. but then we are playing more thematic 40K and not trying to squeeze every bit of powergaming out of the system.
I was trying to give an example of where putting a codex in the context of when/why it was dominant is important.
And not just powergaming - in 4th i've watched whole armies open up on eldar skimmers without effect, in 5th they were often underdogs to middle of the road stuff like generic mechanised Witch Hunter lists.
aphyon wrote: It prevents things like eldar casting powers while inside transports like in previous editions, although our khorne player might think it would be funny i'll ask him if he wants to give it a go next time we play.
Psykers (Official 5th Edition FAQ)
Q: Can a model use a psychic power that is not a Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a transport vehicle? (p50)
A: Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is still worked out from the vehicleās fire points (this will count as one model shooting through that fire point if the power is used in the Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight and has a range or an area of effect that is normally measured from the model using it, these are measured from the vehicleās hull, as explained in the Embarking section on page 66.
Eldar suffered from not having firepoints which eliminated Destructor, Eldritch Storm and Mind War. On a related note units inside transports could be the target of psychic powers, but only those cast by other units in the same transport (5e core rules errata).
-Note that page 66 doesn't actually explain anything...
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5e was... inconsistant at best with some of these rules. Units were certainly 'in' the transport on the table for certain purposes - scoring being the best example (i.e. no vehicle can score, an embarked unit is not on the table, however an embarked scoring unit is explicitly a scoring unit on the table with distance measured from the hull - p90)
Generally speaking all old codex rules worked as written unless they were explicitly called out or had no apparent effect(i.e. rules for 'raid' scenario). The 3.5 codex of course had no official errata for 5e leading to this odd situation. Other units with the 'berserker rage' style rule did still exist (repentia, arcos, penitent engines) but were errated to have the regular rage USR which called out specific rules for embarked units.
When we collected the hybrid rules fixes (on page one of this topic) from the various editions we specifically addressed this point to make all codexes available under the 5th ed rules.
Core 5th ed rules/USRs take precedent over all older and newer codexes with the few exceptions we noted. if one exists under a different name but effectively does what one of the 5th ed USRs represents you use that instead. the example i gave was dune strider being replaced with move through cover.
In this specific case blood frenzy acts as normal unless a unit is in a transport as units in transports under 5th ed core rules are effectively not on the table, except under certain special situations-IE fire points or scoring for troops. it also makes the game a bit easier to for all players to remember with uniform general rules. like standard movement for all unit types being fixed. In the several years we have been playing this way it has not caused any issues and has made the game fun for everybody involved.
Other units with the 'berserker rage' style rule did still exist (repentia, arcos, penitent engines)
None of those units could ride in transports IIRC so it isn't a great comparison. you also had the black templar but you had to shoot at them to cause a wound to make them rage so being inside a transport doesn't work for them either.
aphyon wrote: When we collected the hybrid rules fixes (on page one of this topic) from the various editions we specifically addressed this point to make all codexes available under the 5th ed rules.
Berserkers would jump out of transports under the rules as they were handled during 5th edition.
Berserkers would not jump out of transports under the rules as written in your newer houseruled system.
Both answers are correct, depending on which ruleset you use.
None of those units could ride in transports IIRC so it isn't a great comparison. you also had the black templar but you had to shoot at them to cause a wound to make them rage so being inside a transport doesn't work for them either.
For templars it wasn't the zeal that was the problem but 'Abhor the Witch' (the vow, not the special rule with the same name). It's a forced 1st turn move that explicitly calls out units in vehicles as making a consolidate rule (even gaining bonuses from crusader seals).
To the best of my knowledge this was never officially clarified and most players ran the Adepticon errata (or avoided the vow entirely).
Every edition had its messy parts, 5th was actually less messy than many others. that's why it works better with a few tweaks. the entire point is to have an enjoyable game afterall. As you may have noticed from all the battle reports and pictures i post, we are having fun with it. dare i say a fair bit more fun than the consternation of the players meta chasing 9th edition.
aphyon wrote: Every edition had its messy parts, 5th was actually less messy than many others.
The ruleset was fine for the most part, it was GWs errata that were often messy and incomplete.
Though modern 40ks everchanging books of slightly different numbers aren't an improvement. The thing about 5e errata is that it wasn't about fixing the odd cost, it was needed to pull together ten years and two full editions of books that were absolutely not written with one another in mind.
Not that GW were helping themselves either - for example no two marine books from the start of 4th until the end of 5th had matching costs for devastator heavy weapons.
In space int he 41st millennium nobody can hear you scream but Abaddon can get really angry.
Thats right it's BFG time oh yeah!
My buddy wanted to try out a new fleet list for the imperial navy.
Since the stores fleets only had one battleship we had to borrow the chaos one to be a second for his fleet.
He ran-
.admiral with 2 re-rolls
.X2 emperor class battleships
.mars class battlecruiser
.X3 dominators
.X2 dauntless light cruisers
I rolled on the random to see which of my fleet lists i would run. (with or without the planet killer).
I ended up going without-
.Abaddon +3 LD 8 chaos lords
.despoiler
.repulsive grand cruiser
.styx blattlecruiser
.X2 devastations
.X2 carnages
The game was a 2k passing engagement.
He tried to use the dauntlesses as a distraction and suicided tham into my carnages and grand cruiser. which got a torpedo salvo off for 3 of 6 hits.
He was hoping to use that to allow him to swing his nova cannons around to keep the range advantage.
In an odd twist for imperials, he was running a very heavy carrier force almost equal to my own. so, bombers and assault boats became pretty useless as it was a field of fighter screens for days.
His dice rolls with the nova cannons were underwhelming. he put 5 hits on the repulsive 2 of which i braced away and completely murdered the fighter escorts it had in tow.
And that is all he managed aside from killing loads of fighters. In return he lost both dauntlesses, the mars was crippled by hull damage, and finally one of his emperors was one hit away from half health when it took an engine crit that reduced its speed by 10cm.
The emperor frowns on wastefulness and losing a priceless battleship was not worth the fight so the imperial force surrendered the field.
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We started this game about 5am ( i arrived at the store at 2pm the previous day) and it took about 3 hours. considering how tired he was may have led him to make some tactical errors. but he still enjoyed the game and is not working up a bakka fleet list we will see what happens next time.
n a silly side not the carrier group led by the styx really wanted to test Abaddon's patience. for something like 4 turns in a row they failed their LD test and had to use his re-rolls while they were directly in front of him.
Been a while since i got some classic 40K in so i got a 2fer
Game 1 was against ADMECH 7th edition. i was using a mechanized siege list for salamanders from 5th ed.
The table was imperial urban city
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The mission was king of the hill center objective, random turn length.
He was running a mix of skitarri, dunce crawler, striders and a knight titan.
i had scouts and tac marines in transports, land speeder typhoon, land raider, an ironclad dread talon, brey'arth ashmantle and a fortification -Ikaris quad laser turret.
the setup was table quarters-
ADMECH
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Salmanders
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He went first and scouted up his infiltrators, since most of my stuff was well hidden, behind cover i was able to weather the first couple turns pretty good. fortunate for me since by ironclads decided to wait till turn 4 to show.
Brey'arth dropped in and did some no-good to some skitarrii, the knight tried to end him, but missed his CC attacks. Brey'arth hit back twice...and slapped the knight off the table with a double 6 damage roll removing both the knights structure points.
My land speeder got it's guns blown off and had to run back to the techmarine for some needed repairs.
There was a huge trade of fire with the skitarri rangers in the middle of the table, i lost my tac squad the RB got immobilised so i was forced to abandon my scout outflank to run them towards the objective.
His tech priest dominus got a lucky hit on Brey'arth ant took him out.
It was a good fight but the admech force was more designed to fight infantry, it ended up costing them in the end.
The player was more of a 9th edition player so learning 5th helped him appreciate how different the game plays.
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GAME 2
This one was payback, and a bit of love thrown my opponents way as he was in the perfect environment
Ironwarriors 3.5 chaos codex, in a fortified position in an urban environment.
I think my dice were in on it as well since they were not cooperating.
as a slight moral victory i did manage to take out one of those damnable chaos upgraded predators (I usually always fail to kill them at all). but i lost so much to do it. it was just a direct battle since it was a very late start. still fun if quick and bloody.
By the end of things i was down to my 2 AV 14 units with no hope of salvaging the battle.
I was supposed to have an introductory game against grey knights, but the other player had some family stuff come up so i ended up rekindling some love for 40K with a guy who hasn't played it in over a decade. he was a 3rd ed guard player and still had a few minis in his collection that he could find.
He was basically down to a bunch of veteran squads a command squad and marbo so to bump up his points, even though we don't normally use them in games this small, we loaned him the stores ancient armor cast baneblade.
I was originally planning to fight the other guy so i went with a more infantry based list without my normal GK allies (as that would be strange since i was planning to fight them to begin with)
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I ended up cutting it down quite a bit to get to 1,300 points or so.
We rolled up an end to end battle with a king of the hill objective.
Since he was nice enough not to use Creed's ability to outflank the baneblade i dropped in the ironclad in a lucius pod to try and put some hurt on him.....and failed miserably.
Since it was used in a normal game setting the baneblade while hard to kill wasn't game breaking. most of the work was done by his veteran squads and sheer volume of fire.
Since he was kitted out for points his cammo cloaks giving him that extra cover save, even in the open, really helped and he managed to tie up my snipers after breaching the fortification with melta bombs.
Marbo also saved his behind popping up behind the dreadnought and landing an immobilizing melta charge.
I just barely managed to get my TAC squad on to the objective to contest it (my librarian was doing work teleporting them around). as the game ended randomly on turn 5.
Had it gone to turn 6 i am pretty sure he would have won the match instead of pulling a tie. even with managing to destroy both the baneblade cannon and the demolisher cannon on the beast.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Ironclads remain the one type of Dread I do not own. Weird...
I got them because to run a dread talon as a troop choice (badab war rules) you can only use (3) ironclads or siege dreads (the regular dreads with a siege drill/flamestorm cannon). it was part of my original army design with max dreadnoughts in a legal 2K list for 5th edition.
Really fun game tonight one the regulars who has a 30K world eaters army wanted to move up to the 40K timeline...so we broke out the stores collection of loaners armies. mostly old 2nd and 3rd ed stuff. we managed to cobble together a proper 3.5 chaos world eater/khorne berserker army.
The hosts of slaughter
HQ .blood thirster kai gun/dread axe
.kharn the betrayer
TROOPS
.X8 berserkers with axes champion/icon
.x8 berserkers with axes champion/icon
.X8 blood letters
HEAVY
X3 las/DCCW w HF mutated hull parasitic and demonic posession.
The salamander successors drop force
HQ .terminator librarian
.techmarine on bike with conversion beamer
TROOP
.X10 scouts sniper rifles/heavy bolter, melta bomb
.X5 scouts bolters, shotguns, power fist/melta bomb + land speeder storm transport
.X10 tac marines flamer, missle launcher, powerfist/melta bomb + drop pod transport
.ironclad dread talon (X3 ironclad dreadnoughts hammer/DCCW with heavy flamers assault launchers and X2 HK missiles)
Mission...because it was khorne he decided his objective for the game was BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
We rolled up a random end to end table deployment.
He went first with his terminators, blood thirster and blood letters in reserve. surprisingly he managed to get a fire frenzy on one of his dreads, scoring him an immobilized result on one of my ironclads.
My assault sqaud got the jump on the berserker squad with kharn in it....and promptly ran away when things went badly. kharn was the beast he was meant to be base 5 attacks +d3 on the charge and a +1 if they frenzied that turn. he did that 3 times 2 of them at max 9 attacks. and in case you are wondering he did kill a few of his own as to be expected.
his terminators came in behind me and immobilised a second ironclad. the 3rd tried to deal with them, killed a couple before dying to power fists.
Other fun facts
the converson beamer aimed at one of the dreads...and scattered onto the second mob of berserkers. deleting them. the librarian used gate to get away from one of his dreads and mishapped getting placed by my opponent right back where he started...in front of the dreadnought. his blood thirsters showed up, killed 2 marines with his kai gun.....and then failed 4 regular armor saves from the storm hawk.
As i usually do with his upgraded chaos vehicles. those mutations/possessions made them hard to kill and i managed to do some secondary damage but no kills.
The game ended on the dice roll at the end of turn 5. with khorne winning this one....well khorne always wins as long as blood is shed.
I only had a wounded librarian, wounded tech marine, 2 immobilized ironclads (pretty much out of the match), 5 scouts and the storm hawk left.
He had Kharn, 3 dreads, 5 terminators.
Had the game gone on another round i think it would have just got worse for me.
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Also, i just love this closeup of my scouts holding the cathedral.
aphyon wrote: the converson beamer aimed at one of the dreads...and scattered onto the second mob of berserkers. deleting them.
Always a danger of not spreading out your models in earlier editions. Something that was lost with the blasts and templates in 8th, though I remember some players could did take far too much time making sure they had maximum spread against blasts.
Greater daemons with armoury access? That's just asking for even more 3.5 shenanigans :p
Wounds on 2+, instant death vs T4, ignore armour saves, ignore invulnerable saves, ignore feel no pain, 2d6+8 armour penetration, 18" assault from reserves without scatter. If ever there was a time for a large screen of cheap conscripts... (or some lucky bolter rolling apparently, weight of fire has a quality of its own)
aphyon wrote: the converson beamer aimed at one of the dreads...and scattered onto the second mob of berserkers. deleting them.
Always a danger of not spreading out your models in earlier editions. Something that was lost with the blasts and templates in 8th, though I remember some players could did take far too much time making sure they had maximum spread against blasts.
Greater daemons with armoury access? That's just asking for even more 3.5 shenanigans :p
Wounds on 2+, instant death vs T4, ignore armour saves, ignore invulnerable saves, ignore feel no pain, 2d6+8 armour penetration, 18" assault from reserves without scatter. If ever there was a time for a large screen of cheap conscripts... (or some lucky bolter rolling apparently, weight of fire has a quality of its own)
They were bunched up because they had just been in close combat with my tac squad. the surviving librarian gated away at the start of my turn so it left them in a bit of a clump. the funny part is i wasn't even aiming at them because i was hoping to use the librarians second power (the S5/AP3 flamer) on them. i really needed to destroy the dread.
Who makes the tall domed building? I need one of those in my life.
Welcome to the world of 3d printing-
That is from the imperial city set STLs from sacrusmundus. one of the 2 best 40K terrain providers-
I also suggest war scenery if you need more domes in your life.
terrain
They have a nice collection of DOW terrain including space marines, imperial guard, mechanicus, sisters, tau and some non 40K Star Wars
aphyon wrote: They were bunched up because they had just been in close combat with my tac squad. the surviving librarian gated away at the start of my turn so it left them in a bit of a clump.
Ah right, I remember one of my old marine regulars using that in combination with locator beacons for a while until they switched to Blood Angels.
But they always used it offensively with things like attack biker squads
when i use the librarian this way i tend to think of him as a transport option not just an HQ...like a super rhino to move my tacs around (as long as i do not roll doubles ). since my force follows an airborne/drop troop theme the movement versatility the librarian provides really fits the army as i purposely try to avoid using ground vehicles aside from dreadnoughts and skimmers (there is a whole chapter lore backstory i wrote for that).
aphyon wrote: when i use the librarian this way i tend to think of him as a transport option not just an HQ...like a super rhino to move my tacs around (as long as i do not roll doubles ). since my force follows an airborne/drop troop theme the movement versatility the librarian provides really fits the army as i purposely try to avoid using ground vehicles aside from dreadnoughts and skimmers (there is a whole chapter lore backstory i wrote for that).
I think what put my marine opponent off was that early on the same was achieved by the very drop pods that were carrying the locator beacons the librarian would be using, and they had all the same inherent limitations of not being able to assault or fire heavy weapons excepting the bikes.
Plus the terrible luck they always seemed to have with deepstrike scatter.
One of the regular guys wanted to jump into 40K and picked up a used
large GK army for our 5th ed games using the 5th ed codex. not my favorite i prefer demon hunters but i helped him build a list and we finally got a game in after several weeks of schedule conflicts.
His force consisted of
HQ grand master
TROOP
X2 strike squads
ELITE
.paladin squad
FAST
.interceptors
HEAVY
.dreadnight
.venerable dreadnought
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Since this was his very first game of 40K we decided to just focus on game mechanics and skip any objectives. he really loves the halberd aesthetic and a focus on close combat.
I equipped all his units with a demon hammer and psycannon as well as giving all his units psycannon bolts. so he could deal with a bit of everything.
I ended going first and spent most of the first turn trying to destroy his venerable dread....i finally managed to remove it's las canon as well as immobilize it. his dice rolled really well for him all game. while i did manage to whittle down his interceptors, the hammerhand S9 hammers did work on my ironclads and thanks to the shunt his night made short work of my assault squad.
It took all game but i did manage to kill the dreadnight. in the end however it was pretty clearly a GK victory. the game ended on a dice roll at the end of 6.
He really enjoyed himself and wants to do a bigger game to try out some of his other units including his flyer and his named characters.
The iron warriors player went first but all he really managed to do was kill 7 berserkers on foot and rip an arm off the contemptor.
Strangely enough for the first few turns all the khorn marked units were blood frenzying including the dreadnought....in fact it only actually got to shoot one time. the rest of the time the player just kept rolling the magic 1 for it to go crazy and run foreword.
Combined fire from the many las cannons and the oblits dropping in only managed to scour 1 structure point off the spartan, but it did give the berserker units riding inside something up close to go fight.
The choas terminators misshaped and were put in the far back corner of the table so their contribution was very limited, however that one lone berserker that lost all of his squad managed to get in the iron warriors back field with his icon and summon in the blood letters to break the line.
The iron warriors put up a good fight but even with the early setbacks the berserker warband was the clear victor in this match
the khorne side lost the contemptor and a bunch of berserkers but not entire squads netting the iron warrior player 1 KP
By comparison the ironwarriors lost 2 oblit squads, 2 marine squads, and 2 vehicles giving up 6 KP.
Did another smallish 1,450 game against the orks again. this time i ramped it up a bit and added a few more dreads. because of points restrictions i had to run my LS typhoon and a double heavy bolter tornado.
the game was an end to end deployment with a king of the hill center objective.
the entire middle section fortification of the table was 3+ cover saves unfortunately for the OK player he didn't make very many of them.
The ork player called it at the end of turn 3, i think he could have pulled off a win if he had played it out, but it was also 1am at that point, not everybody has the same gamer stamina.
So a friend finally got back to the game store after months away dealing with real life and normally he plays a 3.5 chaos khornate army. he has been itching to try out his work bearers.
We are playing out hybrid 5th ed rules so it is a battle between
3.5 chaos with a few demons from the 4th ed demon codex for variety.
I put him up against a salamanders force with allied demon hunters -Grey Knight grand master with terminator retinue
My list included the above plus
.Brey'arth ashmantle with a lucius pod
.scout snipers
.ironclad dread talon
.assault squad
.venerable autocannon dread.
.Icaris quad lascannon emplacement.
With the grey knights present the demonic incursion rules were in play.....so all those general troop level demons just keep walking back onto the table. can i survive this 2,100 point game for 5-7 turns?
He went first and the quad turret died without firing a shot and as hard as i tried i could not remove any icons from the table before turn 2. i was fortunate at first with only half his force deciding to spawn. even so a few turns in all my basic marines were dead......guess the knights won't have to purge them later.
Without the grey Knights i doubt if i would have lasted as long as i did. i only lost 2 of them...one to the rhinos combi-bolter and the other to a plague knife.
The first game was a break in game. one of the guys received a free ork army. so with a bit of tinkering and proxying we managed to get it up to 1,900 odd points.
The player normally plays guard so he was having a bit of fun with this one.
On a side note, fighting an army of orks with a 5+ invul save for cybork bodies is lots of work,
The orks-dread mob raid on kestral novum army list
.big mek dred
.mad doc grotsnik
.X2 (10) spanna boys
.15 lootas
.15 storm boys
.12 tankbustas
.2 deff koptas
.trukk
I used one of my badab inspired siege army lists.
.brey'arth ashmantle w/drop pod
.ironclad dread talon
.scouts(5) w/land speeder storm
.X3 venerable hellfire dreads
.(10) assault squad
We just did a stright up meatgrinder 12" deployment
I went first and got super lucky. the mek dread is on par with brey'arth's abilities with the added ability to repair itself. so when i dropped in and assaulted it i expected to take damage or be destroyed. as it so happens my dice were rolling better than his.
His deff koptas got revenge outflanking and shooting brey'arth in the back immobilizing him.
his loota's and tank bustas were really MVPs this game....the bomb squigs not so much he had to spend of 3 of them needing 2+/2+ to take out my land speeder.
this game ended up being super brutal. he managed to destroy one venerable dread and immobilize 4 others. take out my assault squad and my scouts/speeder. at the end of the game he had his lootas and mad doc and i had a single functional iron clad and venerable dread left.
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Game 2
This game was a classic. somebody i have been playing with for 20 years. he built this army back in 5th ed, but he has not played it much recently. most people want to battle his 3.5 iron warriors.
This was a full 2K game with a d3+2 objectives (we ended up with 3) and a 12" deployment
His list
.pedro cantor
.sicarius
.X2 las.melta tac squads
.X2 sternguard vets in drop pods w/ heavy flamers and combi-meltas
.terminator assault squad (5)
.land raider redeemer
running joke with the redeemer-if it gets immobilized, he will lose the game
My list
I had not broke out the big bird for a while so i went air heavy, even though it hurt me a bit on objective scoring-
.master of the forge w/4 servitors
.scout squad w/land speeder storm
.ironclad dread talon
.venerable hellfire dread
.deathstorm drop pod
.assault squad (10)
.storm talon
.storm eagle
Spoiler:
He managed to go first and the first sternguard unit combat squadded to take out 2 of the ironclads
A big brawl started on the right side objective in the building. it ended up involving pedro, the terminator squad his tac squad and my asault squad. it took a while but the assault squad sarge managed to storm shield save a stupid amount of wounds before finally going down.
the one venerable dread i hade also got taken out by the sternguards.
This game was super close. on turn 5 i was ahead, turn 6 it went to a tie when the last ironclad dread tangled with the terminators and turn 7 (it went all the way on the dice rolls) i managed to pull a victory through going second.
The scouts hoofed it through the command center and used their OBSEC to take the middle point from the terminators
i had to put the storm eagle into hover so the master of the forge could get out and take the left objective.
A friend of mine for some strange reason wants to get back into 3rd ed. and he's finding it one of the hardest to collect.
Obviously, I'm biased - I quit 40k during the 3/4 era and after a couple of years started playing 2nd again. I remember it well, but not fondly.
Anyway, he was lamenting the difficulty of find books and materials. I said I wasn't surprised - the resale value on 3rd ed. stuff when I got out was zero. I posted them on ebay and they never sold. When we moved, I just threw the books away.
It's interesting to see which editions held their value. I supposed 3rd will eventually by highly collectible simply due to rarity. Sort of like having an AMC Pacer - nobody likes them, which is why hardly any are left.
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: A friend of mine for some strange reason wants to get back into 3rd ed. and he's finding it one of the hardest to collect.
Obviously, I'm biased - I quit 40k during the 3/4 era and after a couple of years started playing 2nd again. I remember it well, but not fondly.
Anyway, he was lamenting the difficulty of find books and materials. I said I wasn't surprised - the resale value on 3rd ed. stuff when I got out was zero. I posted them on ebay and they never sold. When we moved, I just threw the books away.
It's interesting to see which editions held their value. I supposed 3rd will eventually by highly collectible simply due to rarity. Sort of like having an AMC Pacer - nobody likes them, which is why hardly any are left.
Is it really that hard? I went back and got a bunch a few months ago on ebay, and they were all below initial retail price. I bought Guard 3.5, marines, both inquistion dexes, and CWE, and the only one above 6$ was Witchunters (10) and the core rules (20).
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: A friend of mine for some strange reason wants to get back into 3rd ed. and he's finding it one of the hardest to collect.
Obviously, I'm biased - I quit 40k during the 3/4 era and after a couple of years started playing 2nd again. I remember it well, but not fondly.
Anyway, he was lamenting the difficulty of find books and materials. I said I wasn't surprised - the resale value on 3rd ed. stuff when I got out was zero. I posted them on ebay and they never sold. When we moved, I just threw the books away.
It's interesting to see which editions held their value. I supposed 3rd will eventually by highly collectible simply due to rarity. Sort of like having an AMC Pacer - nobody likes them, which is why hardly any are left.
There's a bunch of 3rd ed codexes on ebay right now. Maybe 40ish? Roughly the same amount of 2nd ed codexes which pop up, actually. Neither seem particularly difficult to find.
Commissar von Toussaint wrote: A friend of mine for some strange reason wants to get back into 3rd ed. and he's finding it one of the hardest to collect.
Obviously, I'm biased - I quit 40k during the 3/4 era and after a couple of years started playing 2nd again. I remember it well, but not fondly.
Anyway, he was lamenting the difficulty of find books and materials. I said I wasn't surprised - the resale value on 3rd ed. stuff when I got out was zero. I posted them on ebay and they never sold. When we moved, I just threw the books away.
It's interesting to see which editions held their value. I supposed 3rd will eventually by highly collectible simply due to rarity. Sort of like having an AMC Pacer - nobody likes them, which is why hardly any are left.
There's a bunch of 3rd ed codexes on ebay right now. Maybe 40ish? Roughly the same amount of 2nd ed codexes which pop up, actually. Neither seem particularly difficult to find.
Yeah, I've recalled seeing them from time to time as well and am not sure what he was driving at. I think he was wanting only the initial print run of everything, so not any of the revisions.
Still, I see a few of those out there myself, so not sure what he was driving at.
Just Tony wrote: That reminds me that I still need to chase down the Dark Eldar revised codex for 3th edition
What was revised for that one? Is it the same content that's in the Chapter Approved?
IIRC, Dark Eldar were the flagship new race at the launch of 3rd ed, which resulted in tons of the warriors being traded away on the cheap because not a lot of people wanted to play them. Around these parts, they were known as "Bondage Eldar."
I think 3rd ed. stands out insofar as they had codexes that actually failed, and GW was compelled to do reprints. Back when I was collecting all the 2nd ed. books, my search results frequently brought up books from 3rd ed. that were the second iteration.
So while I see a bunch of stuff out there on ebay, if you're into all first-printing, mint-condition level collecting, that might increase the degree of difficulty.
As I recall, that's what my guy wanted: 3rd ed. as released, no updates, no chapter approved, just original as written.
Having lived through the release of those books and observing the reaction to them, I'm not sure I'd want to revisit that particular period of the hobby, but everyone has their thing.
As I recall, that's what my guy wanted: 3rd ed. as released, no updates, no chapter approved, just original as written.
Then all he needs is the main rulebook for 3rd. It has the army lists in it.
What I (and he) meant was that he wanted the first-run of everything. So the first-run rulebook, and then all the subsequent codexes before the corrections/improvements were made.
I recall that there were "in-edition" revisions, but I junked all that stuff a long time ago. At the time, 4th edition was becoming preponderant, I found zero demand for earlier 3rd books, and wasn't interested in carrying boxes of books into a new house in the hopes that 20 years later I could get some sort of return on the investment.
This contrasts with my experience with 6th Ed. Warhammer Fantasy Battles. Once I got wind of the 7th ed, I immediately listed everything I had and got decent (used) prices for them. I really liked 6th, and wasn't willing to upgrade and I wasn't sure what 6th books would be worth when 7th came out.
The irony of course is that I have a bunch of WHFB 5th edition books (an edition I loathe) along with Ravening Hordes. But now I digress...
Just Tony wrote: That reminds me that I still need to chase down the Dark Eldar revised codex for 3th edition
What was revised for that one? Is it the same content that's in the Chapter Approved?
IIRC, Dark Eldar were the flagship new race at the launch of 3rd ed, which resulted in tons of the warriors being traded away on the cheap because not a lot of people wanted to play them. Around these parts, they were known as "Bondage Eldar."
I think 3rd ed. stands out insofar as they had codexes that actually failed, and GW was compelled to do reprints. Back when I was collecting all the 2nd ed. books, my search results frequently brought up books from 3rd ed. that were the second iteration.
So while I see a bunch of stuff out there on ebay, if you're into all first-printing, mint-condition level collecting, that might increase the degree of difficulty.
As I recall, that's what my guy wanted: 3rd ed. as released, no updates, no chapter approved, just original as written.
Having lived through the release of those books and observing the reaction to them, I'm not sure I'd want to revisit that particular period of the hobby, but everyone has their thing.
Ahh, none of that really tells me what the difference between the first and second release is . . .
Insectum7 wrote: Ahh, none of that really tells me what the difference between the first and second release is . . .
Revised edition had Wych Cult armies and the Archonite and Draconite(I think that was the names? New lesser level versions of the characters) entries as well as balance/points fixes.
your armies over with codex creep, rules updates or edition changes
)
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