Amishprn86 wrote: Well in older editions you were heavily more limited so poison worked a bit better. The problem is now there is almost no limits as to what you can take. I mean Flyers, Talos, Ravagers, all where in the same 3 Heavy slots, so you had to really pick and choose.
The trouble is, monsters and such faced the same restriction. So while you might have been more limited in Ravagers, you could also expect to see far fewer monsters across the table.
The only thing that could be fielded in large quantities was vehicles . . . and poison is (and was) utterly useless against them.
Amishprn86 wrote: Well in older editions you were heavily more limited so poison worked a bit better. The problem is now there is almost no limits as to what you can take. I mean Flyers, Talos, Ravagers, all where in the same 3 Heavy slots, so you had to really pick and choose.
The trouble is, monsters and such faced the same restriction. So while you might have been more limited in Ravagers, you could also expect to see far fewer monsters across the table.
The only thing that could be fielded in large quantities was vehicles . . . and poison is (and was) utterly useless against them.
But my point wasn't about MC/Tanks it was that we HAD to take something to fill, it normally was Trueborns in elite, Beasts and Reavers in Fast attack, and then full troops with transports. So you had to relay on poison, it was common to have a couple gun boats just for massive shooting against Marines and Terminators b.c you need Dark weapons for all the transports. There were times 4 Trueborns wasn't enough to pop a tank, so I couldn't waste my other 1 Dark weapons on marines. Unless it was GK's b.c they didn't take a lot of vehicles and were OPlol.
Now in 8th/9th they are 100% trash b.c they are optional, when you are so heavily limited and how armor/AP worked, -1ap in the past was equal to ap6 which didn't do anything to a lot of units. So poison wasn't equal to all other troop guns vs anything above orks as a lot of basic guns were str 3 (other than Marines and a couple others) so it was common to wound on 4+ and no ap. That is not the case anymore. Other armies have evolved for the most part and we did not.
Just had another game and probably lost the hardest i've lost in a while. I think after turn 2 there was no coming back from it. In some ways i did it to myself since he had khorne units with a 3d6"+1 re-rollable charge and i didn't screen the general area well enough.
If i have to say reavers are great for grabbing and holding objectives (unless shifted with serious resistance), screening other units and not a whole lot else. I probably won't ever take more than 24 again. I'm not sure how they handle with heat lances but honestly they're probably better taking mostly bare except for grav talons esp. since 9th took away flyers ability to shoot if they jumped back out of combat which makes shooting with bikes mostly a waste. If i need a unit that actually can hurt things in melee i'll probably take grotesques instead of reavers.
Blasters are just garbage. The were probably ok when they were cheaper but they're just crap now esp. if you don't take the obsidian rose boost. Scourge get shot off the table without issue, reavers in general are too short ranged and expensive, blasters are short ranged and will be charged if you don't screen or have a unit to handle melee units with, most other anti-tank is short ranged and most of the rest of our anti-tank and anti-monster competes between the same few units that have dissies.
Honestly poison is worse than it's ever been as far as i can tell. In 7th you could do the spammed venoms approach where you could move quickly and shoot 12 poison shots at 36" range without issue. Also they had a role if you shot them vs bikers or had lots of poison vs things like necron wraith units or something. The general point was in 7th poison could hurt monstrous infantry like tyrant guard, carnifex and ogryns but since 8th things got more wounds, cover boosted armor and poison stayed just as weak and in some cases got weaker. What i wouldn't give for armor penetration on poison even if it's just -1 AP but the only thing with that in our whole army is Covens of 12 wracks in melee which people probably never really took and multiple damage in very specific cases. Only time we ever got both was electro-corrosive whips which were admittedly good but only can be taken one per acothyst and one per haemonculus.
I'll admit wyches can surprise me if they are stuck in melee with something but for the most part except for our aircraft and 2 decent sized screens of naked reavers i generally won't take wych cults. Sadly my future list will be 18-24 reavers with 2 units of 9 or 2 units of 12, at least 10 grotesques out of DS maybe, 3 dissie ravagers, 2 void ravens with void lance, maybe take dissies or dark lance on our jets if possible, go for either 3 units of shredder scourge since they've improved or blaster scourge and then go for raiders with warriors inside with dark lance and dark lance on raider. I may use obsidian rose to throw 2 more blasters in each raider but honestly probably a bad idea. I'm thinking using scourge is also a bad idea unless i take them with shredders for possible hordes but even then i'm not feeling good about them since they always disappoint these days due to being fragile. Anyway i'm going to see what i can fit in a 2,500 pts list. The venoms are definitely going away as poison is garbage.
The last two armies i faced were just a ball of death in one form or another. Honestly using melee against them or even being closer than 24" is not ideal. If i really have to i'll use obsidian rose and i may use reavers or grotesques to screen if i absolutely feel like i'll be charged in melee but that's only if dark lances, dissies and void lances can't do the job i need them for. I need to play test it. Luckily that shouldn't be very hard.
Regarding Blasters, I can definitely see them being an issue for Scourges. Though I think that's at least partially a problem with Scourges being overly expensive, relative to their (almost nonexistent) durability.
It means that, assuming you deep strike them, you can expect to get off a single round of shooting before they're blown away. And Blasters just aren't reliable enough for that - especially when you can't even let them reroll 1s to hit.
Blasters on Reavers seemed to be a 'YMMV' thing even in 8th. I tended to take them, partially because my Reavers tended to feel rather toothless otherwise (even in combat), and partially because after 7th I was used to squeezing as many anti-vehicle weapons as possible into every list.
However, I definitely don't think they're an auto-take on Reavers. Especially if you're using Red Grief, as they conflict with your ability to Advance and still charge (you can still do it but then you're only hitting on 4s).
It's difficult, because Blasters are expensive and not particularly reliable. However, as above, I generally find that a lot of DE units end up feeling completely toothless without them.
On that note, how are people finding Shredders? Are they preferable to Blasters on Warrior squads at the moment?
I'm thinking shredders could be alright in a list of scourge. It's a short ranged weapon regardless and if you ever face a swarm too big to handle with anything else the new blast rules will make sure shredders get the job done.
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I'm a little unsure about my new list i just made this second. I got so frustrated with transports and vehicles i just went "**** IT!" and outside of 3 dissie ravagers and poisoned shooting it's mostly what i took.
The wych cult part is test of skill and slashing impact. My kabal is Obsidian Rose. I took 2 units of 12 reavers with blasters and grav talons (8 of each total and 24 reavers), 2 archons with blast pistols, 1 succubus with blast pistol, 2 void ravens with 2 void lances per aircraft, 6 dark lances (3 from warriors in raiders and 3 from raiders themselves) and 6 blasters from warriors in raiders.
So 4 void lances, 14 blasters, 3 blast pistols and 6 dark lances. 27 lance weapons total are in one 2500 pts list and then i put 3 dissie ravagers in there for 27 dissie shots with archons nearby for re-roll 1's to hit.
Obsidian rose should give my dark lances and dissies 42" range in case i need that extra range. The blasters are 24" with some reaver support for blocking in case it comes to that. Sadly the 8 reaver blasters are 18" and i'd rather not take them but if i'm taking the reavers anyway it might just be cheaper to take them with blasters than whole other units.
This is probably a dangerous list to make because it mostly relies on either poison, reavers in melee or dissies but hopefully it worked out. Against a horde of tough units i might be in trouble. I was unsure if i should take the void ravens honestly but void raven missiles and the bomb should help for anti-infantry concerns if it comes down to that. I could've probably taken 3 units of 5 scourge for 15 scourge in order to get 12 blasters but test of skill with void lances mean vs toughness 8 i'm wounding on 2's instead of 4's and it'll probably live longer.
I'm unsure if i should just spam blasters or go the dark lance route but considering i could take anti-tank on both i sorta just did. At least if i move the -1 to hit for moving infantry with dark lances can't be debuffed harder. I'm probably gonna use dark lances more but i may be better off spamming blasters and just using reavers as a screen. I suppose we'll just have to see.
Hey guys! About to run a small bracketed tournament between a few of my friends of the armies and models that we own.
I played DE for a little while in 8th, took them to a small tournament and did pretty good, but they've been shelved for a good while taking a backseat to the shiny golden boys.
Now I'm very aware that DE got hurt bad by the 9th changes and their lack of good PA stuff, but I'm still looking forward to running them in this tourney.
The list I've written uses basically everything I own, I also have a raider with 10 guys in it. Is it the best of what I've got, is there anything I need to change, and what are the set of secondaries I'll want to look at?
There's a couple things I had to/can do to get down to 2000pts; dropping 2 blasters, downgrading 6 dissies for lances, or a mix of both. I've opted for blasters as I like the dissie saturation + it's what they're built as.
Please critique and tell me better options
And if someone could give me a crash course on what to look out for in 9th with the deldar? I'm very out of practice with them.
I'm not an expert in this and ive only got 3 games of 9th under my belt. I've been facing some tough fights and losing a bit. I almost won my battle yesterday if i didnt basically ruin myself. I'd say 8th needs you to have lots of anti tank. Haywire is either nice or disappointing but usually the vehicles it fights have lots of wounds and there are times when you face no vehicles at all.
There seems to be a marine meta now and dissies are needed. They were needed in 8th before the marine meta but with it they are even more important. I've been fighting mere chaos marines in massed transports and some of their weapons can be rough.
The new missions need speed which dark eldar are good at but sometimes we have trouble shifting the enemy from objectives when they're there (my current 9th experience vs death guard and the next vs khorne daemons, khorne berserkers and iron warriors). According to transport rules in 9th if you destroy the transport they can't charge you. That said ranged units in transports can fire without issue.
The biggest issue I see in your list is you're taking venoms with warriors at a time when poisoned shooting is at its absolute worst even considering 7th edition. I understand you wanting anti infantry firepower but poison is the worst at it. You have to keep in mind why so many people use disintegrators and its the 36" range and 9 shots at that range. Every other weapon in our list that's anti infantry shooting is usually at peak effectiveness within 18" or less regardless of what it is (meaning you'll be within charge range or enemy retaliation range from their shooting). You can shoot poison at longer distances but it is embarrassingly ineffective.
Sadly in 9th due to melee locking up shooting and preventing you from shooting if you flee you may want most of your anti infantry units to be disintegrators which can shoot with less chance of retaliation or if you do use short ranged shooting make sure it can hit hard, cost little and basically be a suicide unit. You can probably screen possible enemy melee charging units but thats a big maybe and a suicide anti infantry unit is much cheaper.
Almost all of our melee is geared towards anti infantry but only haemonculus covens really have a chance of being both durable and hitting back hard enough in melee against anything that's not an infantry horde or GEQ gun-line. Wych cults are more there for speed and holding enemies in melee usually as one kind of screen or another. Most of us avoid wych cult outside of reavers, wyches and succubus. Honestly you probably chose right not going for them. They're not to good right now as far as I can tell outside of objective grabbing and screening enemies.
You have 3 talos when I tend to see people take 6 in 8th. I have no experience with them so I can't judge how well they do or will do for you.
Your lack of anti tank and anti monster is kind of scary. I normally shy away from blasters but often you can take them in more plentiful numbers than dark lances. Dark lances are better for keeping the shooting unit alive. Normally in 8th your best bet was taking anti tank in raiders, flyers or ravagers I imagine. Disintegrators are good but not often vs vehicles. I also see a lack of anti tank on your warriors in transports which also seems like a bad idea. In 8th I feel like about 20 lance weapons is a good minimum to have but this may depend on what you take.
I'm new to 9th so I'm sorry if this is a bit harsh but from my limited experience with 9th and significant experience in 8th you might want to scrap half the units I mentioned in your army. Sadly you chose dark eldar when our army was leaning towards the worst it's been since 7th I think. I don't think it's as bad as 7th ed dark eldar though. We had a few fun things in 7th but it was uphill all the way.
McMagnus Mindbullets wrote: Hey guys! About to run a small bracketed tournament between a few of my friends of the armies and models that we own.
I played DE for a little while in 8th, took them to a small tournament and did pretty good, but they've been shelved for a good while taking a backseat to the shiny golden boys.
Now I'm very aware that DE got hurt bad by the 9th changes and their lack of good PA stuff, but I'm still looking forward to running them in this tourney.
The list I've written uses basically everything I own, I also have a raider with 10 guys in it. Is it the best of what I've got, is there anything I need to change, and what are the set of secondaries I'll want to look at?
There's a couple things I had to/can do to get down to 2000pts; dropping 2 blasters, downgrading 6 dissies for lances, or a mix of both. I've opted for blasters as I like the dissie saturation + it's what they're built as.
Please critique and tell me better options
And if someone could give me a crash course on what to look out for in 9th with the deldar? I'm very out of practice with them.
Thanks in advance for any feedback!
If this is what you have then that is fine. You will need to heavily pick good targets to focus on getting points. Make sure you take secondaries that flyers can also take like like Engage on all front vs Linebreaker (Flyers don't count for Linebreaker).
Tactics if what wins for DE not raw power like marines, example don't be scared to sacrifice a venom or 2 on 1 objective to keep it and have Obsec there when they die but don't do that is they are going to also charge you for example.
Heavy Support
- Talos x2 (Haywire, Scalpel and Flails)
- Reaper
Dedicated Transport
- Raider (Disintegrator)
- Venom
- Venom
That's 985pt. I could drop the Grotesques in favour of 5x Wracks more and 5 Incubi, not sure what's better. I feel it's low on Obsec Troops.
Ossefactors are better IMO, especially in DT as you would marines on 2+ always and with 2D you get a 4+ chance to deal D3 MW's, they also are 1/2 the points so you save 10pts for something else. Given they are 24" range too you can shoot every turn no matter what, and you get easier time with FnF.
What's the Reaper thing that appeared in the recent lists?
FW models are not always accepted if you go to a tourney.
I'd be more interesting in lists without the Reaper.
wuestenfux wrote: What's the Reaper thing that appeared in the recent lists? FW models are not always accepted if you go to a tourney. I'd be more interesting in lists without the Reaper.
FW is accept is all GT's and Majors its only local RTT's that bans it b.c of bias small locals miss understanding of FW and they claim its P2W when its not. (there is 1 good unit out of 10 terrible units, but if you look at "OP" units in non FW there are about 10x more OP units from GW, so really FW isn't bad at all and most of the units are more fun than anything else). FW mostly adds to armies that are missing something, like Coven missing a Heavy tank, aka Reaper. Take the Tantalus for example, its worth 250pts but its 400pts. The places that ban FW are normally CAAC players.
The Reaper is a all obsessions Heavy Ravager like vehicle, it is either D6DL shots, or it is 2D6Str 6 no ap 1D shots that can sto a unit from Advancing. It also has 12w compare to 10w. Its in a lot of lists b.c Coven can take it and its good with DT, give you 2+ to wound and D6+1D as a solid Anti-tank/MC.
Speaking of the Reaper, its a really fun unit to play, it wasn't good in 8th not b.c its guns are heavy, and always being -1, on top of another -1 and sometimes another -1 to hit it wasn't worth it. Now it never is -1 when it moves. Its always been at the verge of playable.
Heavy Support
- Talos x2 (Haywire, Scalpel and Flails)
- Reaper
Dedicated Transport
- Raider (Disintegrator)
- Venom
- Venom
That's 985pt. I could drop the Grotesques in favour of 5x Wracks more and 5 Incubi, not sure what's better. I feel it's low on Obsec Troops.
Ossefactors are better IMO, especially in DT as you would marines on 2+ always and with 2D you get a 4+ chance to deal D3 MW's, they also are 1/2 the points so you save 10pts for something else. Given they are 24" range too you can shoot every turn no matter what, and you get easier time with FnF.
I'll be playing vs a friends AdMech. Nastiest stuff he brings is 2 Robots and an annoying unit of deepstriking Infiltrators whith a bunch of attacks and a lot of pistol shots. Maybe the Ossefactor is better, last time he only charged with those Infiltrators, so flamers weren't really needed.
If I get 10 more points to spare maybe the idea of more bodies (5 Incubi 5 Wracks) is better than the killing power of Grotesques.
About the Reaper. It's always really good in DT, but it doesn't feel overpowered, maybe a little undercosted but the Vortex Cannon is by definition really swingy... My first game with it I one-shot a Wraithlord for 20 dmg, next one I needed two shooting phases to deal 10 to an AdMech transport. It feels like a Doomsday Ark without the small weapon fire of the arrays and less S and range on the cannon.
Yeah it is undercoated not b.c of the gun but b.c it has 2 more wounds over a Ravager while in Coven. Being 160pts is about perfect I would say. A triple DL Ravager in BH on average is 1 damage less but both still on average doesn't kill a Rhino by themselves. Though I can see GW making it 165-170s just to make it cost more than a Ravager, which means i'll only play with 1 instead of 2.
Also the Reaper is a Heavy Blast gun, so it has a pro and a con, Pro, can get more shots vs 6+ and 1+ models, Cons b.c it can not shoot while in combat.
I reaaaaally want to run some Reavers, I love the models so much. Ideas? I just have 6, because I just wanted to buy them and build them.
I also normally play 1000pt games with friends that are learning, and it seems that Reavers are better in low point games.
A 6man is easy to put into any list, from 1k to 2k I play 6-12 most games.
Just take them cheap and use them as objectives grabbers, body blockers, tie up units, charge tanks/dreads to force to shoot them over your Obsec's, take secondaries, etc..
Our *newer* units look so good, even some 3rd edition look really really cool even now. That's why I play them
GW has us with their cool models, even with gakky rules. I'm just going to buy the Yncarne for the sake of the model and to make him appear from the dead bodies of some stupid wyches and say "ha! gotcha!" even if he dies horribly and it's a waste of 300 points.
Are you guys able to give me some advice on the 2500 pts dark eldar list I posted in army lists? I have objective taking stuff and plenty of lances both long and mid to short range but i feel like i neglected other areas such as anti infantry both heavy and MEQ. The thing is ive just been having such issues vs tanks and monsters as of late that i cant stand the enemy having so many without losing enough of em.
In my last game the opponent just took first turn and took his almost completely mounted force of chaos marines and just proceeded to go where he wanted, pop smoke and use dark apostle powers i cant even prevent with helm of spite and I couldn't stop him.
I'm also considering doing dark technomancers with hex rifles or something because the opponents heroes tend to plop right down between all their forces and I can't kill their stuff too well to get to the characters due to the aura boosts.
Well remember at over 2K you get a lot more CP's and another detachment, not like we really need a 4th one. Just something to think about in general. But hugely you still are rule of 3 even over 2K points unless doing open play or GT.
I kind of more wanted to know if my list was any good. Since we get so many CPs in 2500 pts I never feel the need to use multiple patrol detachments. It really only gets you to break even with points far as I can tell and I don't think a few CP is really worth it for us unless we do black heart. I dont feel anywhere nearly as starved for CPs like in 8th esp. With gaining a CP per friendly command phase for battle forged.
My main observation is that the list leans heavily into Kabalite Warriors and Wyches, neither of which are particularly great right now. While there is quite a bit of anti-tank, there is nothing durable enough to hold objectives except maybe the Reavers, which are IMO pretty mediocre at everything. It appears to be more of an 8th edition list than a 9th.
harlokin wrote: My main observation is that the list leans heavily into Kabalite Warriors and Wyches, neither of which are particularly great right now. While there is quite a bit of anti-tank, there is nothing durable enough to hold objectives except maybe the Reavers, which are IMO pretty mediocre at everything. It appears to be more of an 8th edition list than a 9th.
Well, if you go for a Coven list, there are more resilient units for moving forward and holding or contesting objectives.
With sufficient shooty support, such an army can be quite competitive.
harlokin wrote: My main observation is that the list leans heavily into Kabalite Warriors and Wyches, neither of which are particularly great right now. While there is quite a bit of anti-tank, there is nothing durable enough to hold objectives except maybe the Reavers, which are IMO pretty mediocre at everything. It appears to be more of an 8th edition list than a 9th.
Well, if you go for a Coven list, there are more resilient units for moving forward and holding or contesting objectives.
With sufficient shooty support, such an army can be quite competitive.
I'm sure you'e correct. My bias is no doubt showing through because I prefer a mix of the two for tactical flexibility. Regardless, I would always try and squeeze in at least one unit of Mandrakes for objectives, and a Sslyth or two for actions.
harlokin wrote: My main observation is that the list leans heavily into Kabalite Warriors and Wyches, neither of which are particularly great right now. While there is quite a bit of anti-tank, there is nothing durable enough to hold objectives except maybe the Reavers, which are IMO pretty mediocre at everything. It appears to be more of an 8th edition list than a 9th.
The warriors are more there for anti-tank weapons. I only take wyches for combat drugs spreading around. I think you guys said i could change drugs based on the turn though.
The reavers are more for screening shooting units, more anti-tank and objective scoring. Personally i'd prefer to have other units since reavers are expensive and while semi-durable aren't that great (at least against a dedicated melee unit). I kind of want to take a unit of 10 grotesques somewhere but i dunno how well those will do. I'm still curious if grotesques work better with 4+ inv. save from prophets of flesh or -1 damage artists of flesh trait. I think 4+ inv. save is generally more helpful for what i face due to lots of single damage attacks but both can be good in their own way.
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God I just crunched numbers together again and I'm almost wondering if I should try this like I originally planned esp. With overwatch nerfed in 9th. You see a while back I thought about buffing hellions with a crap ton of obsessions. It'd almost surely die in a turn but it could potentially do some damage esp. With the damage 2 shenanigans. I may try a unit of 20 or more ds'ing at the enemy with art of pain (+1 to power from pain turn table so +1 to WS on turn 2 when in melee) and test of skill. Finally I'd give them +1 attack combat drugs. On average against monsters and vehicles under t8 that's 60 attacks, 50 hits, 25 wounds and for 3+ save it's 16 wounds. For a 2+ save it's over 8 wounds. It could use some tweaking but it's late so maybe tomorrow.
Dark technomancers may also be good in the future and acothysts and haemonculus with hex rifles and DT should be good. It might actually give me a solid chance at killing off enemy heroes and considering all the buff heroes and even more methods of screening heroes that could be good. They usually put heroes in the middle of a crap ton of units so the hex rifles should be almost necessary.
Marines have leeched all the playstyles in the game, not just ours. They have chapters shootier than Tau, chapters better at melee than Orks, chapters with better vehicles than AM, chapters faster than Aeldari...
They have no flavor at all, Primaris are just a mess of rules, and that made SM a bland faction overall that shredded all the lore that was behind them.
I loved the idea of Adeptus Astartes, super elite hard to create human dudes that fought for mankind, with super hard to produce weapons and hardly winning any battles vs the forces of Chaos and Xenos across the galaxy. Now it's a joke, Primaris are an insult to the Astartes lore.
The point of Dark Eldar are the players that play them, I'm proud of playing The Dark Kin and I would not change it for anything. The lore and the models is what I like about the game, not the game itself that was broken by Primaris.
I will send my Venoms and Raiders and laugh (while I die) to that new Landspeeder that they got. Have you seen that model? It has a smurf encased to the back, it looks like a toy.
Denegaar wrote: Marines have leeched all the playstyles in the game, not just ours. They have chapters shootier than Tau, chapters better at melee than Orks, chapters with better vehicles than AM, chapters faster than Aeldari...
They have no flavor at all, Primaris are just a mess of rules, and that made SM a bland faction overall that shredded all the lore that was behind them.
I loved the idea of Adeptus Astartes, super elite hard to create human dudes that fought for mankind, with super hard to produce weapons and hardly winning any battles vs the forces of Chaos and Xenos across the galaxy. Now it's a joke, Primaris are an insult to the Astartes lore.
I don't disagree. But Primaris lore being a joke sadly doesn't make the game any more fun.
The point of Dark Eldar are the players that play them, I'm proud of playing The Dark Kin and I would not change it for anything. The lore and the models is what I like about the game, not the game itself that was broken by Primaris.
I fear that while I like the dark kin and while I enjoy converting models for them, I got into this game for the game. So that fact that Primaris have sucked in all other playstyles and faction identities is quite a blow for me. Not helped by the fact that 7th pulled the plug on our options, and everything GW has done since then has been more widdling on our corpse.
I will send my Venoms and Raiders and laugh (while I die) to that new Landspeeder that they got. Have you seen that model? It has a smurf encased to the back, it looks like a toy.
Yeah, the SM head poking through a hole in the turret is just comical. And there's something about the two pilots that makes them look less like elite warriors flying through a warzone and more like an old, married couple on their way to the seaside.
Sadly, though, for all that I laugh, I'm unable to get away from the fact that that ugly, bulky hover-tank is still faster than a Raider.
I agree totally that ruleswise it makes no sense and it's a little insulting to all the other armies, but I think that if we play Xenos is because we really love the army, and we are happy to play it even in really rough moments like this one.
The day I lose this way of thinking will be the day I take a break from 40k and play another game with another awesome army.
Take my opinion with a grain of salt though, as I normally play very casually with friends that play armies that go toe to toe with mine (Tyranids, AdMech, Craftworlds). Probably if I was playing in a shop where 80% is waac marine players I would think differently.
So I don't know, lorewise the latest bits of lore say that both Kabals and Cults use them... I don't really know if it fits the Covens as we are using it now.
You know i'm not gonna lie. The fact most of our heavy damage weapons are d6 or even d3 and the only damage 2 weapons we have are either dissies or on some awful unit (hellions and maybe clawed fiends). It can be rather hard to damage much of anything.
Dark eldar certainly don't have a lot of multiple damage attacks with a set damage amount. The most reliable for heavy damage is either dark technomancers with disintegrator raiders (which have had a points increase and raiders are now 48 USD which is a rip off) or you can use heat lances which are most reliable on bikes probably and also most likely not that good. They should be ok for elite unit killing maybe but not so much for anti-tank.
Then for anti-infantry we have to do either melee (which is often a bad idea unless you go covens). We have ranged anti-infantry which has a max effective range of generally either 18" or 12" depending on what it is and what obsessions you took. Finally we have disintegrators with a full effective range of 36" or 42" based on what obsessions you took.
It's kinda of embarrassing the options we generally have. We either do lots of heavy damage at short range and if we fail to do enough we die (likely with 8th and 9th due to durability of monsters and vehicles), get into melee where we die unless we're covens or we use dissies which are good but might not shift enemies and can be a bit depressing against vehicles unless you do dark technomancers maybe.
The other issue i have is objective gathering in 9th. Reavers are fast but when i went against an army of almost all transports (iron warriors and berzerkers chaos marines) i just couldn't kill them fast enough. He jumped on points turn 1 and he got first turn so i legit couldn't do anything about it and because i'm dark eldar without covens on the field i couldn't shift his army. For me to say it was frustrating is putting it lightly esp. since reavers are pretty much build for securing objectives as quickly as possible.
I dunno man. I faced berserkers, khorne daemons and iron warriors in the same army and they felt really strong. Even iron warriors by themselves felt strong.
I have since changed my list to field more anti-tank but i don't know if it'll be enough. I may have to just go the Covens route a bit harder even with objectives being the key point. I need something to take and hold objectives without much issue. Reavers can take objectives fast but they can't hold them long and they cost a lot of points now for what they do.
I may be forced into dark technomancers with dissie raiders for damage with hex rifles for character killing. It's tough and i just don't know. I may need to change my list again and i didn't even use it yet. DT dissie raiders just feel better than the warriors w/ blasters and dark lance in a dark lance raider esp. because dissie raiders can move and shoot and wound with +1 and +1 damage whereas dark lances aren't so hot with that.
We don't have reliable anti-tank. Any type of Darklight is swingy, being it Dark Lances, Blasters, Void Lances or Dark Scythes... even the Vortex is really swingy, we play it now because it's 150pts and DT makes it easy to run.
We have to rely on MWs from Haywire, and our options are on a superglass cannon unit and on a locked behind a subfaction unit.
I'm honestly thinking I might change up my last army list and I haven't even playtested it yet. The issue being I hate enemy heroes using their buff auras in the middle of a spammed army and the only real good way to take them out is with covens but mostly with hex rifles using dark technomancers. I hate how stuck in a corner we are with this but sometimes you just have to do it anyway. Against the tournament playing friend I might just have to.
I've managed to half convince myself that we could well have a new codex in the first quarter of 2021.
This is based on the the fact that the codexes already announced seem to correlate with the models previewed....so 'Lelith' should mean that our book isn't far off....maybe....possibly.
Or is this all just lies, speculation, and half tuths?
harlokin wrote: I've managed to half convince myself that we could well have a new codex in the first quarter of 2021.
This is based on the the fact that the codexes already announced seem to correlate with the models previewed....so 'Lelith' should mean that our book isn't far off....maybe....possibly.
Or is this all just lies, speculation, and half tuths?
I wouldn't be surprised.
Dark Eldar are one of the armies that work worst with the paradigm shift of 8th "the soup edition" to 9th "The pure army edition" and we do have at least one model previewed.
My predictions right now:
1) Gw is re-shifting back towards "invisible options" that cost points with a datasheet for Veteran Intercessors and Chapter Masters/Master Libbies/etc being given point costs rather than CP costs. I predict we will see the return of Bloodbrides, Trueborn, and possibly a Wracks equivalent unit of Acothysts as well as point cost driven HQ upgrades to add variety without having to add models somewhat addressing the "we keep losing units" complaint for drukhari.
2) We will probably see Drukhari either completely folded back together or with some kind of combined synergy to fit in with 9th ed being "the pure army edition"
3) I feel like Eldar Drukhari and Harlequins will all kind of participate in the general Stat Inflation we saw with oldmarines moving to W2 to have a greater differentiation between 'what is a horde/chaff unit' and 'what is an elite unit' . Whether this means W2 Eldar I don't know, but I think at the very least we could see all Eldar armor values moving up a tick - basic troops at 4+, aspects at 3+, heavy aspects/incubi at 2+.
I don't know, I see all the Aeldari factions converging into something bigger with the Ynnari trio being so prevalent in the lore.
Maybe not in 9th, but I'm pretty sure Aeldari are up to a big change in the next years.
I don't see elves being 2W outside of Exarchs and such, but the Armor stuff would be great on Incubis, plus a +1S to their Klaives.
The change to the Auras now affects us negatively, but maybe with the Codex they fix our HQs. I'm pretty sure something exciting is coming
harlokin wrote: I've managed to half convince myself that we could well have a new codex in the first quarter of 2021.
This is based on the the fact that the codexes already announced seem to correlate with the models previewed....so 'Lelith' should mean that our book isn't far off....maybe....possibly.
Or is this all just lies, speculation, and half tuths?
I think we will be one of the first 4 books in 2021 b.c we had Lelith tease with others that are coming out.
They already said this year is Crons/SM, DW, DG, SW, BA, and then first of the year is DA and 1 Xenos. There was the pics of new models with Sister, Orks, DG, and Lelith. So I think its going to be DA with either Orks or DE and then it'll be Sisters with the other.
So what do Archons do now that they (probably) can't buff ravagers anymore?
They kinda suck in combat, only buff things that also suck in combat, can't buff kabalites in gunships. They basically only buff kabalites on the ground who are probably out of rapidfire range and also Poison sucks.
Also, they are our only HQ for Kabals...
They better rethink this whole DE setup they have going on for the Codex, because right now it's looking really abysmal.
Red Viper wrote: I haven't played much since the Wraithknights were released in 7th. Trying to get back into it and making a list...
Which would be a better spot to stick my 2 Ravagers, Kabal of the Black Heart (writ nearby) or Dark Technomancer Coven?
Ravagers are only Kabals so they have to go into a Kabal list, Reapers can be Coven though and with the new FW book coming out very soon wait on the Reaper.
Black Heart for now is best for Ravagers, though that might change with our next codex, at least no matter what Ravagers will be playable and you can also just swap traits whenever you want.
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Brutus_Apex wrote: So what do Archons do now that they (probably) can't buff ravagers anymore?
They kinda suck in combat, only buff things that also suck in combat, can't buff kabalites in gunships. They basically only buff kabalites on the ground who are probably out of rapidfire range and also Poison sucks.
Also, they are our only HQ for Kabals...
They better rethink this whole DE setup they have going on for the Codex, because right now it's looking really abysmal.
Our HQ's will need rework for sure, but with the changes supposedly only happening with codex releases we should be fine (I hope).
hopefully they either make the shadowfield a flat 2++ with no shutoff or they bring back alternate options like the clonefield. a T3 model with a non re-rollable 2++ is not that crazy anymore.
though realistically id like to see our vehicles get a massive increase in their movement speed... they are suppose to be stripped down to the bare minimum to maximize speed and maneuverability and yet we are about the same speed as everyone else... whiel being far more fragile..
our flyers should be able to pivot twice like eldar flyers, our highly maneuverable fast fighters cant pivot twice while eldar flyers can? bs. maybe not the bomber..
also more transport capacity, bump raiders to 11 or 12, there not being any room in a raider for the character is dumb...
Make character auras effect units int he same transport/fortiifcation like how KFF works while embarked.
hopefully mercenaries get expanded out in the book. or at least made viable... court of the archon is such a joke now.
Ravagers are only Kabals so they have to go into a Kabal list, Reapers can be Coven though and with the new FW book coming out very soon wait on the Reaper.
Black Heart for now is best for Ravagers, though that might change with our next codex, at least no matter what Ravagers will be playable and you can also just swap traits whenever you want.
So what do Archons do now that they (probably) can't buff ravagers anymore?
Generally, I don't like lumbering HQ's.
Therefore, I play Farseer/Autarch on jetbike, Necron Lord on barge or jump pack Captains.
But if nothing changes they still are lumbering and now has no purpose other than sitting on an objective with its thumps up his
They dont live long, hit hard, or do anything special, they are worst than almost every type of version of it from every army. They need a full overhaul.
Denegaar wrote: I think it's more fluffy for our Archons to command from a Raider.
I want the bike for my Succubus!
He Haemonculous can walk.
Haemonculus can have some sort of hovering dais/surgical table combination? Maybe something akin to some of the AOS kits that'll build you a named character or a generic HQ?
warmaster21 wrote: hopefully they either make the shadowfield a flat 2++ with no shutoff or they bring back alternate options like the clonefield. a T3 model with a non re-rollable 2++ is not that crazy anymore.
A part of me hopes that this will not happen. A permanent 2++, while not overpowered, does not seem like much fun.
Unless of course GW makes it that way. Then it will be fun and correct.
though realistically id like to see our vehicles get a massive increase in their movement speed... they are suppose to be stripped down to the bare minimum to maximize speed and maneuverability and yet we are about the same speed as everyone else... whiel being far more fragile..
Yes, it would be nice if they were a little faster to match their fluff.
Of course, if GW decided to keep them that way, it will be entirely good and fair. Marines are supermen so perhaps their transports should be faster.
hopefully mercenaries get expanded out in the book. or at least made viable... court of the archon is such a joke now.
It is a good joke. Ha. Ha. Ha. Yes, a good and funny joke.
I'd still like to get a Mandrake (TM) HQ to use as part of a themed army. They are some of my favourite models in the range (an excellent price and a very good material with no faults whatsoever) and so I have already converted some to HQs in the past.
Though if Mandrakes (TM) are not expanded, GW will be right not to do so, and I will burn my heretical models in shame.
But if nothing changes they still are lumbering and now has no purpose other than sitting on an objective with its thumps up his
They dont live long, hit hard, or do anything special, they are worst than almost every type of version of it from every army. They need a full overhaul.
I think you are perhaps being a little negative here. I don't think that sort of talk would please the inquisitor.
Don't let the inquisitor see you frown. Don't let the inquisitor see you frown. Don't let the inquisitor see you frown.
I think what you meant to say is that the Archon (TM) doesn't live long, hit hard, or do anything special compared to a Space Marine Captain (TM). Which is of course correct, because Space Marines (TM) are supermen and so should be naturally superior to Drukhari (TM) in every way. So Archons (TM) are in their rightful place right now (under the boot of a Space Marine (TM)), and that is a good thing.
But if nothing changes they still are lumbering and now has no purpose other than sitting on an objective with its thumps up his
They dont live long, hit hard, or do anything special, they are worst than almost every type of version of it from every army. They need a full overhaul.
I think you are perhaps being a little negative here. I don't think that sort of talk would please the inquisitor.
Don't let the inquisitor see you frown. Don't let the inquisitor see you frown. Don't let the inquisitor see you frown.
I think what you meant to say is that the Archon (TM) doesn't live long, hit hard, or do anything special compared to a Space Marine Captain (TM). Which is of course correct, because Space Marines (TM) are supermen and so should be naturally superior to Drukhari (TM) in every way. So Archons (TM) are in their rightful place right now (under the boot of a Space Marine (TM)), and that is a good thing.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
No, compare to any hero, go look at the Canoness, Troupe Master, and Autarch for examples (there are some others too), they all can take better gear and have better relic's as well. Just barebones no relics the TM/Canoness way out preforms the Archon.
Heck the Ynnari Archon Beatstick is so much better too. The Archon used to be a melee master, now... now he is nothing.
I'd love for the tantalus to get buffed in the new forgeworld book. Not to make it OP, just to give me a reason to buy one and play it without feeling like im throwing the game.
A pts reduction would be the number thing i'd want since i feel the rules are good enough as they are.
The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.
harlokin wrote: The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.
The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.
As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.
I agree that these are still a bit jarring when compared to out other options.
I still feel that we're paying a solid 100pts only for the transport capacity honestly and that transport capacity is overvalued as a whole in the game.
harlokin wrote: The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.
The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.
As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.
It would also open the way to conversions - such as a Venom towing a Hellion guy around like a water skier.
harlokin wrote: The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.
The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.
As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.
It would also open the way to conversions - such as a Venom towing a Hellion guy around like a water skier.
yeah that would be pretty funny. But honestly, a skyboard isnt that big. Theres no real reason in my eyes why a hellion couldn't just hop off his skyboard and hold it by his side (skateboard style). Unless in the fluff skyboards can't be turned off or something?
harlokin wrote: The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.
The cross-faction accessibility i something i hope will stay as its basically two raiders stapled together and upgunned.
As for scourges and hellions being able to get on it to me feels more like a mistake on the venoms and raiders's rules than on the tantalus. Every other faction that has transports and Jet pack units can put them in transports, and thats what makes sense to me.
It would also open the way to conversions - such as a Venom towing a Hellion guy around like a water skier.
yeah that would be pretty funny. But honestly, a skyboard isnt that big. Theres no real reason in my eyes why a hellion couldn't just hop off his skyboard and hold it by his side (skateboard style). Unless in the fluff skyboards can't be turned off or something?
Oh, I absolutely agree. I mean, given that half the Venom's passengers seem to just be clinging to the wings or such anyway, I don't see why they couldn't just fix their skyboards to the wings via magnetic locks or something. Seems like something an advanced race with little care for danger should be able to accomplish.
And Scourges should be even easier. Bird and bat wings can fold up quite neatly, to the point where I don't see a Scourge taking up any more space than a Haemonculus, Sslyth or Acothyst.
I think its has more to do with the arenas, remember Hellions, Reavers, Wyches all are having constant arenas for glory, fame, money, etc.. and those arena's still are bound to rules of the their games. I think they just get used to it after awhile. Kinda like in an interview with Tony Hawk he said (Not word for word) that its more weird for him to be off the skateboard than on, and he always just wants to travel with it instead of walking, EDIT: Joe Rogan Pod cast.
harlokin wrote: The Tantalus really needs a rules overhaul. Whether it (and the Reaper) is intended to be Kabal/Cult/Coven, and the issue of transporting Scourges also springs to mind.
Don't give them ideas. Ever since they got rid of trueborn we needed something that could be transported with good firepower. Scourge are honestly our best bet. Imagine 12 dark lances in there. Of course it might suffer the all your eggs in one basket problem.
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For me i dunno i want reavers to be good again but i think i'll put them on the back burner. I made a list last night and even i don't know if it's any good. It has one detachment for prophets of flesh grotesques, one detachment with dark technomancers and another trait as well as 3 dissie raiders and like 4 hex rifles total as well as 3 squads of blaster scourge from DS and finally 3 obsidian rose dissie ravagers and 2 void ravens. I'm unsure if there's enough anti-tank in this list somehow and there might not be enough units for screening DS units. I may have to use the void ravens to screen DS enemies and then use a raider as a sacrificial lamb to protect the rest of the army. Sadly this may box me in if i don't get first turn and the enemy DS units are significant enough to force me to castle up a bit.
It should not transport scourges. We don't need them in Transports we need them to just be better in general to want to take them. They are supposed to be our drop support unit, lets leave it that way.
The Reaper and Tantalus should stay all 3 factions so each has a Heavy vehicle in that slot, as of right now Wyches can not take Brigades without the Reaper.
Reaper is fine as is, just make it 160pts so people don't cry its to cheap and at 160 its still perfectly fine.
What the Tantalus needs is to either be stronger, cheaper, or Tougher, b.c as or right now its not good at any of those things, 4 Raiders is better in literally 4 out of 5 things it does, they are only worst at Strength of the gun, but in DT it doesn't matter. For now as is I wouldn't play the Tantalus for anything over 280pts.
What i would like to see is it becomes a lot tankier, give it a 2+ and 4++ with a 5++ in melee, also give it Inure Pain always and finally make it 24w, now its worth its 400pts. Make it out piece that takes turns to die, but don't increase its fire power, let it stay 2D and 12 shots, its not a knight it doesn't have crazy guns. But I wasnt to be able to get somewhere with it with 16 dudes that can survive 2-3 turns.
Or alternatively, don't change anything and make it 275 ish points and have 2-3 on the table. if its 300pst give it invul in combat at least.
EDIT: 2 Reapers even at 160pts will be 320pts, its 24 wounds, and 2D6Str 8, -4, D6 shots, That right there is already better than a Tantalus.
As it currently stands, Kabal is supposed to be our shooty subfaction, which is why I think only they have access to Ravagers. I think that keeping Reapers as Kabal/Cult/Coven makes a mockery of that, and it clearly wasn't even considered if you look at the interactions between the FW vehicles and the Cult of Strife and Dark Creed stratagems. It also makes Dark Technomancers even more poisonous to the internal balance of our codex.
Really? As it currently stands kabal is shooting, haemonculus can handle melee and is shooty because of psychic awakening somehow and wych cult just ineffectually fights and dies. Seriously i can't find a single valid use for wych cult anymore except grabbing objectives real fast, being an expensive screen and dying real fast.
harlokin wrote: As it currently stands, Kabal is supposed to be our shooty subfaction
*Looks at the custom Kabal traits in Phoenix Rising*
Are you sure?
Well....someone in the pub told me so, but I wouldn't swear to it in court
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flamingkillamajig wrote: Really? As it currently stands kabal is shooting, haemonculus can handle melee and is shooty because of psychic awakening somehow and wych cult just ineffectually fights and dies. Seriously i can't find a single valid use for wych cult anymore except grabbing objectives real fast, being an expensive screen and dying real fast.
I don't disagree, Wych cults really need a complete overhaul. I would like them to have an invul whether in combat or not (like Quins), and it would be cool if their Plasma Grenades were buffed to enable them to be close range vehicle killers.
Possibly not what people want, but I think wych cult units just need to be significantly cheaper.
I don't think wyches for example are terrible - and in the new mission format could be quite interesting in quasi-heretical 15-20 strong units played in a way we are seeing boyz/daemons. But they should be no more than 9 points per model and preferably go all the way back down to 8.
In a similar vein hellions could be interesting if they went back down to 12 points a model. Other options are boosting the hellglaive to have some AP - but I feel at 15 points the problem is fragility and this would do nothing to help. A base 6++, a minus 1 to hit, or something in that vein would be nice.
Similar story with Reavers.
I generally stand aside from HQ laments - but the Succubus is ludicrously bad, far worse imo than the Archon. Really can't see why the Archite Glaive shouldn't have the Blood Glaive stat line - and frankly even D3 damage seems kind of soft in today's meta - 2, 3, even 4 would seem more respectable.
Poison weapons... I think the ideal thing for them would be to cause multiple damage on non-vehicle models... Like D2 on rifles, D3 on cannons. That, and being able to wound easier depending on the quality of the weapon, too, or special posion rule from sub-factions. It would make sense. And then some relic poison weapon swith AP bonus
I could see poison doing something like 6+ to wound = +1 or +2 damage vs infantry/beasts/swarms/monsters...
Id rather not see wyches stay cheapish cannonfodder, they have the same problem aspect warriors have, they are suppost to be super elite space gladiators / assassins and have fallen so far behind the curve its sad.
Old wych weapons were scary, denying the extra attack for 2 weapons in melee was huge, on top of their 4++ in melee.
If anything wyches should be far more deadly in melee to make up how fragile and expensive they should be.
Wyches honestly are fine, they just need their Traits updated to meet everyone else's traits. Its Hellions, Beasts/BM's, Succubus, and Reavers out of the wyches that needs updated.
Kinda theorycrafting here but would using Hunt From The Shadows on a big unit of scourges be a good idea?(cover save against shooting become +2 for 1cp). Not like there are any other really good targets for it save maybe incubi. Gives them a 2+ 6+++ save if you dropped them into cover and can make them a bit tougher to remove for standard anti infantry weapons which could draw some of the ap off of venoms and raiders.
You mean 10man Scourge units? I never played them in more than 5, I don't trust them that much haha, and I think the free deepstrike is better used in two MSU.
About Cults, I don't know how to play them. I played Wyches so much in Kill Team, but I don't know how to in 40k. I have 15 of them and 6 Reavers, Is that enough for a small patrol? I have transports for them, a Raider for 10 I guess it'd work.
operkoi wrote: Kinda theorycrafting here but would using Hunt From The Shadows on a big unit of scourges be a good idea?(cover save against shooting become +2 for 1cp). Not like there are any other really good targets for it save maybe incubi. Gives them a 2+ 6+++ save if you dropped them into cover and can make them a bit tougher to remove for standard anti infantry weapons which could draw some of the ap off of venoms and raiders.
I've had the misfortune to already experience Amish's cautionary advice before mentioned it just now. I had an iron hands opponent in one case ignores cover with like that gatling cannon and autocannons. Let's just say most of them died first turn before i got the chance to even use them and i had like 21 of em total. This was end of 8th though i think. I was using dark lances on them.
Also as somebody that just a couple hours ago just used 3 squads of 5 man scourge with blasters that only did a combined 4 damage to the enemy chaos predator with 12 blasters (and no other damage) and then next turn got assaulted and killed within a turn i'd say they're a waste of points. As something that cost about 400 pts that was so embarrassing i think i'll keep scourge off the table again for another long while until they're made better or else use them with shredders instead.
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@warmaster21: Sadly poison needs more than just multiple damage to be effective. We need an AP value on our poison even if it's just -1 or -2 AP. At least then poison might actually be a threat. Electro-corrosive whips have both and as it stands they're one of the only poisoned weapons worth their salt. Sadly only acothysts and haemonculus can get them.
Wyches need more than a 6+ and 6++ save outside of combat. They're ok in melee but outside of it they are embarrassingly fragile. At least overwatch is a lot less likely now. The real problem i have is mortal wounds on a 5+ from charging aren't that good anymore. I'm starting to just rely on grotesques for mortal wound shenanigans with their flesh gauntlets. They're really the only thing durable enough that can dish out enough mortal wounds to be worthwhile. I played a game with 10 grotesques in a unit that were on the board all game against a chaos army that tends to shoot off most of my army and the opposing player only killed maybe 5 of em after 4 turns. Granted they lack mobility but they certainly make for a great wall with great damage potential. Using the re-roll wound's stratagem they managed to kill off 2 chaos rhinos with just 8 guys in one round of combat in my last game.
Unfortunately Scourges are a suicide unit with no teeth. Probably one of the reasons I've never fielded a unit.
Now, if they got some space marine bs like shoots twice when firing at the same target and dark light weaponry was +1 to wound against vehicles and minimum damage 3. Maybe...
They would still be dead after they fired though, so again. Not my cup of tea.
Brutus_Apex wrote: Unfortunately Scourges are a suicide unit with no teeth. Probably one of the reasons I've never fielded a unit.
Now, if they got some space marine bs like shoots twice when firing at the same target and dark light weaponry was +1 to wound against vehicles and minimum damage 3. Maybe...
They would still be dead after they fired though, so again. Not my cup of tea.
They used to have teeth until about 8th edition. It used to be a 5 scourge squad with heat lances would DS in within half range pretty easily and then half range melta lance nuke a vehicle into oblivion. They also used to be alright vs monsters too. When 8th hit heat lances could only DS beyond the half range mark and they couldn't get obsessions so taking them with melta became absolutely useless.
Basically 8th made most of what i had awful. Shredders were fun for a time but once again they had to get in close and trueborn were over-costed. After that they got rid of trueborn for no reason at all which we've had since 5th edition.
I'm honestly trying to figure out what we have left that's even considered "Good" anymore. After my last game i suppose grotesques still qualify. Dark technomancers with dissie raiders all seem decent. They still have issues killing more numerous MEQ units however.
For winning the game or for damage? B.c we win the game via points and taking lots of layers of units with some key fire power units like Reapers, Talos, Drazhar
My current list with dark technomancers raiders and hex rifles were ok. I'd have done better without huge F off walls blocking line of sight and seeing anything on the other side of the terrain. Probably should've just tried flying around but I was somewhat worried about getting assaulted. Maybe if I shoot with a bunch of raider and use fire and fade after shooting to turn one of em into a floating wall they have to get through to assault or have it block units maybe.
I still think foot troops are usually worse for us than most esp due to us having GEQ infantry. Maybe I'll buy a lot more wracks for several reason in the future and see how an enemy cuts through a bunch of t5 4++ 6+ FnP even if it's just one wound on an objective point. I could potentially go for reavers instead but I'd really rather not.
My last list has a little over 400 pts of stuff that I'd do better without (scourge mostly).
I dunno maybe I should ds units of 10 PoF wracks somewhere on an objective and just see how it goes.
Sadly troops units will be needed to do summoning or other objectives and only covens are durable enough for that.
I'll try to mull tactics over later. Much as I love grotesques I'll either need more anti tank or bikes to take points in time. Maybe if i put the void ravens on the bench for some average sized bikes to score objectives. I'll figure something eventually. It's to late right now but hex rifle with DT boost can put some nice damage on enemy character along with. Help of spite for sucking the enemy psykers brain out his donkey-cave as a warning to others that which to tempt the warp again.
Wyches are for assaulting units on objectives (mid-field or opponent's deployment zone). Their 4++ 6++ and obsec will help them. Just don't assault any non-blast shooty monster/vehicle, and use obscuring terrain to get there safely.
Wracks are perfect for the opposite: charging shooty monsters and vehicles sitting on or near objectives. They are also good at grabbing objectives out in the open while performing actions. With a haemmy nearby and PoF, they become scoring beasts in primaries and secondaries (do you remember Cornucopians?). Dark technomancers is really sweet but in triple patrol with Kabal, Coven and Cult, PoF gives you so much...
Kabals are there for staying in their Raiders/venoms n your deployment zone/battlefield half at the start of the battle, using mobility and target priority to stay safe and create oportunities for later in the game, and only move to midfield objectives if there's a good change without retaliation (or you are going for a target saturation move). If their transport gets destroyed, they will disembark unto the objective, and from turn 4 (3 if BH) they are already inmune to morale, so you'll stay there until they wipe you completely.
My list for 9th is a Raiding force 3x patrol with BH Kabal, PoF Coven and then either another coven patrol or a wych cult (I have yet to decide which subfaction offers the most to the list).
Coven + wych has been working great for me, Wyches that can stick in combat and Reavers to literally be anywhere on the table is doing wonders. DT Reapers and Raiders with some PoF Grots and Vex Mask is doing well.
Amishprn86 wrote: Coven + wych has been working great for me, Wyches that can stick in combat and Reavers to literally be anywhere on the table is doing wonders. DT Reapers and Raiders with some PoF Grots and Vex Mask is doing well.
I was honestly considering a unit of 12 reavers or two units of 9 reavers each bare bones no gear. They'd more be for objective grabbing where possible. It's something fast, cheap-ish and durable.
I just take a big unit of 10 prophets of flesh grots on foot right now as my melee unit and as a screen for my shooting units right now.
I only really take kabal for the dissie ravagers now. I heard they were getting rid of the infantry characters boosting vehicles soon. As if archons couldn't be neutered any further.
To be fair it'll hit armies with a million boosts much harder though sadly dark eldar have no vehicle leaders and yet we must be mounted much of the time. The only units we can buff outside of ravagers are coven units. Gw really wants covens to be the only worthwhile sub faction don't they. Kabal and wych cult are getting less relevant. Next week when I game I only plan to have maybe one unit of 12 bikes.
Scourge are garbage. I fear taking hellions due to chaff denying a good charge out of ds followed by being over-costed and too fragile. Wyches while fun sounding are absolute garbage outside of melee. They might do ok with the 3+ inv. Save build in melee but thats best vs infantry. Reavers are only useful for grabbing objectives mostly. They may be fast but they're an expensive screen even bare bones. They also made void ravens far too expensive for no good reason. Covens mostly seem decent. Ravagers are nice and trueborn could be good if only they weren't cut from our army. Seriously how many kabal units do we even have and wych cult obsessions may be better now for everything you can take both on.
Lawrence ran a 'Scourge heavy' list two weeks ago on TT against Salamanders.
It was basically three Flayed Skull patrols, each with two units of five Kabalites in Venoms, a Voidraven, and a unit of five Haywire Scourge.
The list looked good in-play, and the Scourge threw out some decent mortal wounds. It didn't really change my opinion of them though, that they are too expensive for a very hit-and-miss unit.
Yeah... 3 units of Scourges? lol no. thats 345pts for 15 t3 wounds. You could just take 2 Reapers and save points. Heck for 345pts I'd rather have 20 Mandrakes. Not only does Mandrakes deal about the same damage, but they are harder to kill with a -1/5++ always.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah... 3 units of Scourges? lol no. thats 345pts for 15 t3 wounds. You could just take 2 Reapers and save points. Heck for 345pts I'd rather have 20 Mandrakes. Not only does Mandrakes deal about the same damage, but they are harder to kill with a -1/5++ always.
I'd also rather have Mandrakes. Such a shame, Scourges are lovely looking models
They need some special abilities to make them better, like Fire and Fade even if deepstriking or an ability (once per battle) to go back to the Webway after firing.
That and a 5++ at least... they die to easily.
Well yeah, 15pts per model is way to expensive for a dude that in this meta is just a Fast Kabalite Warrior with a slightly better weapon.
But the idea of the Scourges in the fluff is that they are highly mobile and elite Warriors. Right no they just fall down, shoot and die. Maybe they just need to have their weapons improved to be true Glass Cannons.
Tyel wrote: I know people prefer to be more elite - but I really think its just they should be cheaper.
Like a lot of things, they were meh before, and then got a 25% points hike "for reasons", and so... still decidedly meh to bad.
I get where you're coming from, but at the same time Scourges and such are supposed to be highly-elite models. It would be nice if that was actually represented in some way beyond them having BS4+.
As far as cost goes, though, part of the problem is that Scourges rarely ever get to make much use of their mobility. Not least because they're just too fragile to survive even the smallest amount of firepower turned their way. So 99% of the time, they're no better than IG Scions whilst being vastly more expensive.
If marines can get endless buffs in order to "feel like marines", then it isn't too much to ask for our elite units have something to justify the label.
Just a thought but would running a huge horde of Prophets of Flesh wracks and grots and taking the secondary While We Stand, We Fight be a viable strategy?
Force the enemy to chew through dozens of T4/5/6 4++ 6+++ infantry before they can target the 4++ t5 6+++ haemonculi with the options for a relic that gives a 4+++ and a warlord trait that lets you regenerate D3 wounds.
Some guy did that and posted it on Reddit I think (on tabletop simulator). His full list was just like 90 Wracks, 15 Grots and 3 Haemonculi. The idea was to tie everything in combat while scoring and not caring about anything else.
On the Scourge thing, survivability is the problem, if they could fire two times they would be awesome, but right now you have to Deepstrike them in cover (if possible) fire and pray to kill whatever is near... and then pray again with the -1 to be hit stratagem to not die and score something.
The more I think about it, the more I feel that the whole Aeldari race need some type of way to not die that easily. Not raising T or W, but being able to stack -1 to be hit (max -2) or not caring about -1 AP... I don't know, something fluffy that makes us feel like Elves.
operkoi wrote: Just a thought but would running a huge horde of Prophets of Flesh wracks and grots and taking the secondary While We Stand, We Fight be a viable strategy?
Force the enemy to chew through dozens of T4/5/6 4++ 6+++ infantry before they can target the 4++ t5 6+++ haemonculi with the options for a relic that gives a 4+++ and a warlord trait that lets you regenerate D3 wounds.
I'm sure it can work.
For me, it turns us into a less good version of Death Guard. I'd rather crash and burn playing like Drukhari.
Check out the 3rd place eldar soup list in this article. Raiders, grotesques, covens that aren't MM/DT...and allied to CWE for...wraithlords?
Artists of flesh is definitely something to keep an eye on in an age of W2 marines IMO.
Its meh, AotF is better vs multi damage but at the same time worst vs single damage, so it is 100% match up dependent. The Problem with AotF vs PoF is, you don't get teleporting Wracks or Vex Mask and Vex Mask is godly if you are running melee. IMO If you are going AotF you want lots of Raiders, Reapers, Venoms, and Wracks as it effects those more so.
I have an AotF list
Pending changes if FW changes reaper but here is my current list for it.
Spoiler:
Haemonculus, Rifle, whip
Haemonculus, Rifle, whip
Drazhar
Wrack, Rifle, whip
Wrack, Rifle
Wrack, whip
Wrack
Reaper
Reaper
Reaper
Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DC Raider DL
Tyel wrote: I know people prefer to be more elite - but I really think its just they should be cheaper.
Like a lot of things, they were meh before, and then got a 25% points hike "for reasons", and so... still decidedly meh to bad.
I get where you're coming from, but at the same time Scourges and such are supposed to be highly-elite models. It would be nice if that was actually represented in some way beyond them having BS4+.
As far as cost goes, though, part of the problem is that Scourges rarely ever get to make much use of their mobility. Not least because they're just too fragile to survive even the smallest amount of firepower turned their way. So 99% of the time, they're no better than IG Scions whilst being vastly more expensive.
I pretty much refuse to take geq style infantry now as dark eldar. It sounds fun sometimes but vehicles are the way of the game still. Mounted infantry could be a thing if they didnt push the cost through the roof. Also any infantry that wants to take an action on a point would be better off being tough like wracks and surprisingly grotesques since they're infantry. I don't think an action can be taken immediately by infantry if it has to DS on the point and outside of covens, vehicles and bikes nothing will survive long enough for that either.
@amish: Suddenly I feel so stupid not using my haemonculus in raiders with dissie raiders in dark technomancers. That said that also prevents them buffing toughness of the raiders but that's probably no big and you could just leave the raider to let the raider move around.
On a sad note it's a shame dark eldar have become that boring. How does that list handle for pushing onto objectives?
You don't need the Toughness sometimes, if its all S4 and S7, well don't worry about it.
My list handles primaries just fine as I have 10 Grots, enough ObSec to matter, and I focus down flanks not trying to removing them off of all Objectives. I try to keep min and take 1 or 2 more only.
But the key is, if they leave to little on an objective i'll take it super easy, with Aethsails combine with FnF you can easly put a Raider or 2, or 3 on a far away objective, Raider + Aethersails is 22" base, there are time i had 2 Raiders move 22 and 27" to get to an objective with 5 marines on it after killing them off of it. Now i have 2 Raiders with 10 Wracks. Dont underestimate the speed of raiders.
I don't think an army could be boring, and less so our beloved Dark Eldar. The way we play it could be boring but not the army per se.
I have a lot of fun with Venoms, Raiders, Reavers, Wyches, Incubi, Drazhar, Yvraine or the Yncarne while playing Drukhari... but yeah, Covens are popular and Covens are slow and hard to kill... and that could be boring.
Maybe i just play all the boring stuff in our army. I don't use wyches much or hellions at all. I don't use beasts at all. Scourge have become worthless which makes me feel gakky because i spent hundreds on those useless mofos for 3 full squads of scourge only for them to all suck. I haven't bought talos which i should've. I wish i had the money for dark eldar forge world.
I wish we just had our heroes, trueborn and character bikes and wargear back. That and give us some new weapon options and maybe a new super heavy vehicle, flyer or coven unit. I suppose wych cult could have super big beasts but it'd look better if covens did.
It's a matter of opinion mate. I have fun with fluffy fast lists I have fun with Talos and Cronos too... but I'm not that concerned about winning, and my friends play lists like mine so we are fine. If I'd get stomped every other day I'd change my mind.
I'm playing a 'combined arms' Alliance of Agony list (1500), because I find the playstyle enjoyable. Outside of tournaments, I don't see a point in playing an army/list that isn't fun.
I've been doing Crusade lately and oh boy is it fun. All 3 factions are fun, but for sure only start with 1 or 2 and make sure to have Incubi and Mandrakes. Also start with 2 HQ's (I did 2 Archons).
After 3 games both my Archons have a 4++ either in addition to or after their Shadowfield. I have a Sslyth that is -2, 2D in melee lol, and a Couple Kabal units with rr all 1's, now my Blaster/BP's hits more often while in vehicles. The Archons are just beat sticks and they feel good in melee now.
Coven and Wych is still great fun too, and honestly are better in Crusade than Kabal, but I'm doing Kabal b.c my main 2k games has no kabal in it, or its just a BH detachment for AoV.
Amishprn86 wrote: I've been doing Crusade lately and oh boy is it fun. All 3 factions are fun, but for sure only start with 1 or 2 and make sure to have Incubi and Mandrakes. Also start with 2 HQ's (I did 2 Archons).
After 3 games both my Archons have a 4++ either in addition to or after their Shadowfield. I have a Sslyth that is -2, 2D in melee lol, and a Couple Kabal units with rr all 1's, now my Blaster/BP's hits more often while in vehicles. The Archons are just beat sticks and they feel good in melee now.
Amishprn86 wrote: I've been doing Crusade lately and oh boy is it fun. All 3 factions are fun, but for sure only start with 1 or 2 and make sure to have Incubi and Mandrakes. Also start with 2 HQ's (I did 2 Archons).
After 3 games both my Archons have a 4++ either in addition to or after their Shadowfield. I have a Sslyth that is -2, 2D in melee lol, and a Couple Kabal units with rr all 1's, now my Blaster/BP's hits more often while in vehicles. The Archons are just beat sticks and they feel good in melee now.
Can I ask how you got 2 Archons with 4++ saves?
One is the Flayed Skull relic the other is a Crusade relic.
Denegaar wrote: It's a matter of opinion mate. I have fun with fluffy fast lists I have fun with Talos and Cronos too... but I'm not that concerned about winning, and my friends play lists like mine so we are fine. If I'd get stomped every other day I'd change my mind.
I lost my last 4 games and 3 were against the same tournament level player. Had a chance to win vs the other death guard opponent and would've but I thought slashing impact would hurt them. It didn't. I made a bad mistake that cost me the game but not by much.
Most of the people i've been playing against lately are pretty tough. The main opponent is using probably one of the best chaos marine builds i've ever faced.
Will the new +1 str power swords make a noticeable difference on wyches now that even without cursed blade or grave lotus the hekatrix wounds t4 on a 4+?
Not much IMO, but for me it's like a joke, "we get better". Of course it's much better than before, but it's not like all wyches can use them. If we could field Bloodbrides though...
Denegaar wrote: Not much IMO, but for me it's like a joke, "we get better". Of course it's much better than before, but it's not like all wyches can use them. If we could field Bloodbrides though...
Yes, I agree. The perverse thing is that if Heat Lances were getting the Melta upgrades, it might have been worth celebrating.....but no, those have to wait... for reasons.
I just had another game against nids this time. He plays in tournaments so he's not exactly weak and we always get a good game but i often lose. For some reason 9th edition has been un-kind to me.
I think i need more chaff this time to block most enemy DS. It wasn't a huge problem this game but locking DS and enemy movement out from my more important shooting would be nice.
Another big issue i have is i can't really kill enemy characters that give buff bubbles unless i do dark technomancers.
The final issue is being able to move around quickly enough to grab objectives all around the map while simultaneously having the the durability to stay alive long enough for it to matter. I may just have to take wracks in transports just so i can zoom them up far enough and use them to lock down zones, get objective secured and tank enemy shooting and melee without much issue.
I'm also probably gonna never use scourge unless the codex makes them decent with shredders. I may try them with shredders now but i'm just worried they'll die too fast and get locked down too hard.
I'm heavily considering not taking wych cult in general and using wracks in transports to make up for them where possible.
DE right now has a chard time killing characters for sure. We need to focus to much on other things. For character you can ignore them and kill what they buff, or ignore the units and kill the buffer. This will depend on a lot of things, but it is general easier for us to focus on the units. You also need lots of layers as DE now and ways to stay a live. Grots, troops in Transports, etc.. Finally you do need to spread out a little, but make sure each unit has another unit in range ot help them out if you need to.
Unique characters gains nothing from it, Incubi are great, Heroes are great, Grots are great too. But remember you have to build lists into detachments so becareful of transports.
All rosters are legal even if you mix, when you start your game you build alist out of your roster, you built it like you would for any more game, you need to pick a detachment and put units in it.
But the big thing is when building a roster is you have to pick a Faction Trait when you add a unit to the roster.
If you have any questions let me know as its all I've been playing lately.
Denegaar wrote: Units have to have an obsession and its impossible to change it, right?
Once you put them in your Roster you have to pick a trait and they have to keep it the whole time. You can remove units and replace them this will reset their traits, but it also resets their EXP and upgrades.
Do you have the BRB? its only like 3 pages for core rules.
I was thinking a couple Sslyth for the full 25, but my friend was playing 23 points so I cut them.
My friends Agenda was some kind of Psyker Ritual, while mine was (thematically) Abhor the Witch. Finally it's been really close but I got the victory with my Venom at 2W with my Archon inside trying to kill his Wraithlord at 1W.
Next week we'll play the next one I can't see myself playing anything else than Crusade until the Codex drops.
Has anybody been DS'ing minimum sized squads such as mandrakes or scourge completely bare on points to use on the Shadow Operations secondary objectives. I found plenty of good chances to DS a weak infantry unit somewhere only to finish what it needs to do in its movement phase enough to score me some secondary objective points and at that point it's living or dying doesn't hold much importance once it's job is done. It's the true dark eldar way!
flamingkillamajig wrote: Has anybody been DS'ing minimum sized squads such as mandrakes or scourge completely bare on points to use on the Shadow Operations secondary objectives. I found plenty of good chances to DS a weak infantry unit somewhere only to finish what it needs to do in its movement phase enough to score me some secondary objective points and at that point it's living or dying doesn't hold much importance once it's job is done. It's the true dark eldar way!
I know that a few of the ork players in the ork-tactics-thread do the same thing with min sized units of kommandoz to get the Teleport Homer Objective.
I would use Mandarkes for sure. 5 stock Mandrakes are 85 to the Scourges 75, but at this level they are huuuuugely better, IMO. Those 10 points are worth paying.
Baleblast + decent melee + -1 to be hit + better save.
VS
Shardcarbines and wings that you're not going to be using.
Edit: thinking out loud, I'm not sure why I don't have Mandrakes in my roster. Finecast, I guess.
I get wanting mandrakes instead of scourge but if you just use them to grab points there's no real point spending 10 extra points unless they get rid of those objectives at some point or prevent ds units from scoring them. If the point was fighting I'd take mandrakes every time unless the scourge had shredders maybe but scourge mostly disappoint anyway right now.
Perhaps mandrakes could raise a banner with other secondary objectives but theyre aren't really tough enough for my tastes. I'm not sure how we could get those objectives in a cost effective manner. Perhaps ds 10 man PoF wracks from transports but then that'd get expensive in points and in command points. Maybe it'd just be better to do dark technomancers covens with transports since then you can use the transport after to shoot with. Ugh nm at that point it'd take too long and you'd be better using the transports already deployed. Ugh I'll figure something out.
Anyway it's basically just two 5 man's and that's simple enough to use in most games. Either choice works.
Outside of objectives -1 to hit even with 5+ inv probably isn't that tough with marines everywhere right now. I don't imagine it'd last very long given the 3+ to hit, 2 wound, t4 or better marines on the field in the current meta.
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Guys you know whatd be really dirty for secondary objectives? We can spam warriors and use webway portal stratagem with webway raiders so you can have a crap load of cheap infantry grabbing points everywhere up to a predetermined limit. These can be used for basically any various board control missions and you'll generally have enough to ds anywhere.
The point of Scourges are their weapons, outside of that they are pretty frail and the Shardcarbines are... not that good.
On the other hand, Baleblast is... pretty good. I think is the best "cheap" weapon we have actually. Assault 2 S4 -1 AP mortals on 6s? Plus I agree that now that we can't stack -1 to hit, Mandrakes ability is worse, but at least you don't have to worry to find the right cover. And having in mind a lot of weaponry in the game is -1 or -2 AP, 5++ is better IMO than 4+ 6++.
I can understand both perspectives, but Mandrakes feel pretty good right now, and the more I talk about them the more I want to buy some of those awful finecast or convert some dudes.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I get wanting mandrakes instead of scourge but if you just use them to grab points there's no real point spending 10 extra points unless they get rid of those objectives at some point or prevent ds units from scoring them. If the point was fighting I'd take mandrakes every time unless the scourge had shredders maybe but scourge mostly disappoint anyway right now.
Perhaps mandrakes could raise a banner with other secondary objectives but theyre aren't really tough enough for my tastes. I'm not sure how we could get those objectives in a cost effective manner. Perhaps ds 10 man PoF wracks from transports but then that'd get expensive in points and in command points. Maybe it'd just be better to do dark technomancers covens with transports since then you can use the transport after to shoot with. Ugh nm at that point it'd take too long and you'd be better using the transports already deployed. Ugh I'll figure something out.
Anyway it's basically just two 5 man's and that's simple enough to use in most games. Either choice works.
Outside of objectives -1 to hit even with 5+ inv probably isn't that tough with marines everywhere right now. I don't imagine it'd last very long given the 3+ to hit, 2 wound, t4 or better marines on the field in the current meta.
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Guys you know whatd be really dirty for secondary objectives? We can spam warriors and use webway portal stratagem with webway raiders so you can have a crap load of cheap infantry grabbing points everywhere up to a predetermined limit. These can be used for basically any various board control missions and you'll generally have enough to ds anywhere.
Those 10more poits gets you a free -1 to be hit, 5++ and more damage if you need that damage. Over all its a no brainer.
You say its not tough, but its the difference of 1 unit shooting and killing them and 2 units needing to shoot and kill them, which is very good and can mean the difference of them staying alive or not. I play 2x5 most games and all my opponents hates them, if i had scourges I couldn't do anything near the same. So yea 10pts is good.
Scourges REALLY needs the SoB Seraphim stratagem to shoot them they arrive via DSing, honestly Mandrakes should get a stratagem for them too maybe DS outside of 6" instead of 9" or +3" to charge something neat for them.
harlokin wrote: It would be fluffy to give Mandrakes a strategem to allow them to target characters.....maybe even DS close to enemy characters.
They're supposed to literally step out of people's shadows, aren't they?
If they could be made to do mortal wound's on a 5+ or had multiple damage attacks they'd be a must have. I'm kind of agreeing with whoever said mortal wounds are kinda useless now (i think it was vipoid). I'm not sure if this is true among all armies but it seems true for dark eldar. Mortal wounds just don't do enough damage to take down monsters or vehicles and honestly that's usually what you need them for. The only thing that's durable enough to use them is probably grotesques and i've been ditching wych cults.
Oddly i had a decent bit of luck with warriors in raiders with dark lances and blasters. They do a decent amount of damage at a good range. Maybe i just had an easier opponent last time. I find outside of imperial guard and knights most vehicles or monsters don't go above toughness 7. This makes things like void lance kind of a waste most of the time. I've also been using obsidian rose lately for the blasters so they can hit 24" range which is useful for not getting charged. It's still a tad dangerous but when you gotta put some damage on things the blasters tend to be good and they're more spammable.
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It'd also be cool if dark eldar had a better character sniping unit. Sure mandrakes could do or they could boost hex rifles like they really should've been boosted a long time ago. Atm the only thing that works for character sniping is hex rifles with dark technomancers and it's far from good.
Actually the more I think about it the more I like the idea of moving our Mandrakes to a character assasination role. I hardly count hexrifles as a viable option due to the difficulty in taking them in any reasonable number if you are trying to fill a full Drukhari force with all three factions built in and they just have lackluster rules anyways. Cap this off with the fact they are locked to one of our three subfactions so if you don't run Coven or run limited Coven to fill larger Kabal or Cult forces then Hexrifles aren't useful anyways.
Re-write the rules for Mandrakes to make them absolutely haunting to enemy chars and that gives any Drukhari force (since they are mercs) a proper tool for character elimination.
I know people are fitting Mandrakes into their lists now and enjoy them but I feel that's a symptom of A) they perform one of the secondary objectives reliably and B) They are reasonable points for damage/survivability unlike many of our other options in the codex.
If other units in our dex became useful for what they're meant for or were given needed roles within our force then re-writing Mandrakes for this role could actually be a very fun slot fill for us that we don't currently have.
Regarding Mandrakes, making them more assassin-y would make a lot of sense.
However, I find myself wondering whether an actual Mandrake HQ would be much better served as the DE equivalent of a caster. In the fluff, Mandrakes have demonstrated all manner of strange, pseudo-magical powers. It seems like you could easily justify them giving a unit an extra move (perhaps creating a portal for it), as well as stuff similar to some of the new Necron cryptek abilities (specifically those of the Psychomancer and Chronomancer).
Basically, a unit that can stand in for a psyker in terms of offering buffs/debuffs/mortal wounds, but without breaking our army's fluff.
(Of course, I'd also be happy to see The Decapitator make a comeback as well. It's just that I prefer generic characters to special characters.)
It'd also be cool if dark eldar had a better character sniping unit. Sure mandrakes could do or they could boost hex rifles like they really should've been boosted a long time ago. Atm the only thing that works for character sniping is hex rifles with dark technomancers and it's far from good.
On this note, I really wish the Soul Seeker actually worked as a sniper weapon (let's be honest, it's not like Poison Tongue has much else going for it).
I love the idea and the fact that it can shoot models out of LoS. However, I think it really needs to both get an extra shot and also benefit from the Poison Tongue ability (it is their specific relic, after all). As it stands, with only AP-1, it just doesn't do enough damage.
I miss the idea of duke sliscus. Seriously the fact he was never given an actual model and then left on the cutting room floor is a war crime. A war crime even the dark eldar are disgusted at.
I'm just sad so many of our units never really touch the field. I never really use any of the archon's retinue (never have), all wych cults are terrible now even bikes and wyches which is unusual, trueborn were great so they had to be axed off and scourge are mostly worthless esp. due to tanks and monsters being so durable. Seriously only 4 wounds vs a chaos predator for 3 scourge squads and then they just auto-die. One of my bigger wastes of points in 9th for sure. Every time i want to try scourge again to see if they don't suck they always find a way to suck anyway beyond 7th edition.
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I had a game today vs necrons. My experience against them is as follows after having to leaving after turn 3. Oddly i'm more and more curious about disintegrators. Against necrons it sounds alright but then they have reanimation protocols and due to the numbers they have things like shredder scourge or possibly grotesques would do so much more to an absurd extent. The opponent got first turn which didn't help me and got to choose deployment zones due to rolls which also didn't help.
He almost killed one of my 2 void ravens and mostly murdered a unit of 5 wracks in melee. Interestingly wracks are fairly durable with PoF even when not buffed with a haemonculus. I say he got to melee because he basically teleported a unit to within DS range of a bunch of units and got a couple vehicles engaged (all of this can happen turn 1 before i get to even make a move to counter so screens matter if we can even have them). If i recall new necrons have this thing with command protocols or something where they get to move before movement so he was able to move twice and basically grab 3 of the 4 objective areas turn 1. At that point i realize this is already gonna be a tough game because dark eldar can get to objectives quickly if they have to but they can't easily shift a tough unit from an objective.
When i get my first turn he seems sorta smug about this so i take my 2 void ravens and drop void mines on his necron unit during my movement phase which killed 14 of them and then i finished the rest with the one engaged disintegrator ravager so that was his unit of 20 dead (i think it was basic necron warriors and he's taking the new str 5, ap 2, 2 shot weapon that only has 12" range but it's assault). After that i did some more damage (can't remember what).
I know i managed to charge my grotesques into his walkers which could apparently leave combat and still shoot as like a one turn only thing but i think he did it with another unit as well. That said the new walkers have to remain stationary to get their better and longer ranged shots so if you use corners and distance effectively you can really ruin their shooting phases (this is something that will probably help me more in the future against new necrons). The real issue here is that you will still need something that forces necrons off objectives and according to my opponent even the walkers had objective secured or something due to a sub-faction he took.
Anyway i hope he's not cheating with the new things necrons have. I probably should've tried looking at his book just in case to see if it was all legit.
I almost killed one of his cron overlords on a barge (he re-rolled its last failed wound and it remained on one wound till the end of the game). I also murdered his little other hq unit which i probably should've just used to take out his walkers instead. Killing it did ruin some of his later charges since it allowed him to re-roll those but that was never a huge issue for him.
The scourge and wracks units worked perfectly for the 'deploy scramblers' secondary objective and i got my 10 pts at the end of my 3rd turn. He couldn't or didn't really try to stop me. Oddly the harder one to score was the middle zone but i still managed it in my turn 2 without much issue. I imagine it's just super hard to screen all of them. Also necrons have their own secondaries based around objectives and some other things and i'd have to say they're probably way too strong esp. with lots of objective secured.
The game ended with me getting 27 pts (10 for deploy scramblers, 3 for bring it down for killing a walker, 10 from objectives and 4 or more for thin their ranks) and he had anywhere from just under or just over twice my score mostly due to objectives. Honestly i should've traded out bring it down for either linebreaker or engage on all fronts because i had units within 3 different table quarters for most of the battle and with the one scourge unit in turn 3 i was actually in every table quarter. Also when you have grotesques, scourge and a haemonculus in your enemy's deployment zone getting 4 points in a turn is pretty easy as well.
Ultimately i'd still likely lose from him holding the objectives so hard and gaining at least 10 pts from primary and lots of points from secondary from that. At best i could've approached his total but never really topped it unless i knocked him off more of those points and without shredder scourge or grotesques that's just extremely unlikely.
That pre-game move is actually part of their Custom Chapter abilities. Doesnt work on C'Tan or LoW. The Fall Back from CC and Shoot is a 1 turn army wide ability from going mono-dynasty (basically they build a PfP table before the game). Sounds like he is playing it correctly.
Wait until you see what the Nightbringer C'Tan can do. Basically deletes a squad of Grotesques each turn in CC, plus doing 2-4 Mortal Wounds on something near by. The maximum 3 damager per phase ability is bonkers good against us. Good thing you have the Voidraven Bombers, basically an auto-include when facing Necrons.
So for after 5k of Marines, Guard and Custodes each, I've been wanting to get into a non-Imperium army, and have been thinking either Cult or Dark Eldar.
Problem is, I'm unaware of any list that's even semi-competitive that doesn't simply consist of 5x Kabalites in Venoms with a Blaster and some Talos'. I do enjoy the modelling potential and overall aesthetic but the playstyle does seem a bit monotone. Overall I'd like to have a rather mixed army, with Kabal, Kult and Coven or a combination of 2. If there's potential to run say a Patrol Detachment of Harlequins alongside even better.
While I've read the Codex several times I'm wondering if what units I can consider to maintain a balance between fluff and competitiveness.
Valkyrie wrote: So for after 5k of Marines, Guard and Custodes each, I've been wanting to get into a non-Imperium army, and have been thinking either Cult or Dark Eldar.
Problem is, I'm unaware of any list that's even semi-competitive that doesn't simply consist of 5x Kabalites in Venoms with a Blaster and some Talos'. I do enjoy the modelling potential and overall aesthetic but the playstyle does seem a bit monotone. Overall I'd like to have a rather mixed army, with Kabal, Kult and Coven or a combination of 2. If there's potential to run say a Patrol Detachment of Harlequins alongside even better.
While I've read the Codex several times I'm wondering if what units I can consider to maintain a balance between fluff and competitiveness.
Thanks
DE competitiveness is in the middle for sure , very hard to win events, but can easier go 2-1, 3-2, and can go 4-1 with someone used to playing DE. With that said b.c we are mostly focusing on getting max secondaries we suffer in primaries and that is why you see lots of Talos, Grots, Wracks, aka coven b.c Coven can get primaries for us much easier than Cult and exponentially easier than Kabal.
Now with all of that, we do have tools outside of Coven to take primaries, Cult, Incubi, Mandrakes can. Just know its way more glass holding the points so a wrong target pick, a wrong movement, etc.. means that unit wont be there to hold the primary. B.c of that you have to focus on MSU and putting MSU on the primaries. Venom with Incubi in it, Raider with Kabal and wych in them, Reavers with Kabals, etc...
DE is playing on hard mode right now b.c we got a high points increase compare to our power. Sadly CWE had the same thing done to them so we are not alone.
@Amishprn86: I agree so much that primaries, secondaries and at least our shooting is becoming less relevant. Gun-line definitely doesn't work like it used to for dark eldar when the enemy can just shift more hard to kill necrons or space marines onto an objective and wych cults are so squishy they can't really last very long.
I have a very awkward upcoming idea for a list. I may use clawed fiends from DS of all things (two squads of 6) and then two 5 man squads of grotesques in raiders zooming up the field. I may also take ravagers with dark lances. I've been considering shredder scourge but i don't know if they'll realistically do enough. I'm definitely going to take 3 model reaver units for preventing DS though and hopefully blocking transports. I don't know what else i'll bring but it's definitely going outside of my comfort zone.
The thing is dark eldar can take objective points quickly but so can a lot of other factions now and the problem with dark eldar is once an enemy takes a point they tend to do so in enough numbers that we can't shift them even if we direct all our firepower against said objective. My last game against necrons had him double move onto 3 of the 4 objectives by which point i couldn't really shift him. Even though we're squishy overall we really can't play the long ranged shoot from a distance approach much anymore and it really bugs me.
Reaper: 170 pts, still Cabal, Coven or Cult. Went down to 10 wounds, kept all the abilities on the chassis.
The Weapon changed, no longer stops the enemy from advancing, but now the Beam is D3+3 and the Blast version is -1 AP.
So a buff to the damage, a great buff IMO.
Tantalus: Basically the same, auto advance 12" instead of double, but went down to 310 points from... 400?
Rest of the datasheet basically the same.
I've been having a real tough time with dark eldar. I faced custodes yesterday with a list i made up on the spot for take all comers (he got to choose deployment zones and go first). Dark Technomancers is good and all but my list needs something. Perhaps i need chaff and was thinking of 3 units of 3-4 reavers as well as some cheap units for early DS prevention.
9th edition is just really hard for my common playstyle because i need to move around which is easy for dark eldar but we can't easily fight in a melee or in any area where the enemy is heavily concentrated. We just don't have the melee or even the firepower to shift them quickly enough esp. given all our troops are super fragile, over-costed and mostly crappy now (obsec spammed throughout enemy armies is BS). Also we can take areas easily but we can't hold them very easily.
Its selling point is that it CAN be Wych and Coven, Kabal has the Ravager, they don't need a 2nd vehicle that does the same thing.
It can't transport Scourge or Hellions anymore.
Sure its a "selling point".
But it's only a good thing if you think that Coven should be the most resilient subfaction, AND the the shootiest. Ravagers werent available to Coven for a reason.
Then again, I think that DT/MoM is a cancer to the internal balance of the Drukhari codex.
Its selling point is that it CAN be Wych and Coven, Kabal has the Ravager, they don't need a 2nd vehicle that does the same thing.
It can't transport Scourge or Hellions anymore.
Sure its a "selling point".
But it's only a good thing if you think that Coven should be the most resilient subfaction, AND the the shootiest. Ravagers werent available to Coven for a reason.
Then again, I think that DT/MoM is a cancer to the internal balance of the Drukhari codex.
Who says Coven and Wyches can't have a Heavy Vehicle? At one point in time Coven units could give Power from Pain tokens to Ravagers.
I don't care what traits they can get it being DT, ToS, or MM, I care if they just CAN be Wych/Coven. FFS the fluff makes no sense that they can't be anyways.
Who says Coven and Wyches can't have a Heavy Vehicle? At one point in time Coven units could give Power from Pain tokens to Ravagers.
Of course they can have Heavies, they are called Talos and Cronos. What they had in old codexes is uttlerly irrelevant, I'm talking about the internal balance of the current codex.
I don't care what traits they can get it being DT, ToS, or MM, I care if they just CAN be Wych/Coven. FFS the fluff makes no sense that they can't be anyways.
The codex we have is already all over the place when it comes to the fluff, but it can't be a justification to undermine what internal balance there is. Any fething point taking Kabal?
Who says Coven and Wyches can't have a Heavy Vehicle? At one point in time Coven units could give Power from Pain tokens to Ravagers.
Of course they can have Heavies, they are called Talos and Cronos. What they had in old codexes is uttlerly irrelevant, I'm talking about the internal balance of the current codex.
I don't care what traits they can get it being DT, ToS, or MM, I care if they just CAN be Wych/Coven. FFS the fluff makes no sense that they can't be anyways.
The codex we have is already all over the place when it comes to the fluff, but it can't be a justification to undermine what internal balance there is. Any fething point taking Kabal?
K so wyches shouldn't have a heavy, and Talos/Cronos are not vehicles. And yes fluff should matter, otherwise why even write 100's of pages of fluff for every subfaction.....
Honestly jus let us mix and match again and then it wouldn't matter. Not all of us plays 2k and not all of us likes taking 3 patrols to play our book.
K so wyches shouldn't have a heavy, and Talos/Cronos are not vehicles. And yes fluff should matter, otherwise why even write 100's of pages of fluff for every subfaction.....
Vehicle or not is just semantics, what matters is the role that it plays in an army. Some Heavies have the vehicle keyword, some don't, it doesn't affect their purpose in-game.
It wasn't an accident that Kabals have access to Ravagers, Razorwings, and Voidravens, Cults have the latter two, and Coven have none. It is because the design intent (however misguided) was that Kabals are shooty, Cults are a hybrid, and Coven are resilient. With DT/MoM and Reapers, Covens now do everything better than Kabals and Cults.
Honestly i wish it was the opposite and that GW would stop restricting units in these subfactions
Its super annoying to have a codex that forces fake decisions and doesnt function like any other codex in the game.
I'm pretty hyped about the tantalus pts drops, finally pulled the trigger on one and i'll be having fun with it. Reapers didnt need a buff IMO but eh, 9th seems to be the "killing power is at 11" edition.
I'm pretty hyped about the tantalus pts drops, finally pulled the trigger on one and i'll be having fun with it. Reapers didnt need a buff IMO but eh, 9th seems to be the "killing power is at 11" edition.
Reaper is not a buff to it for it, its what all Dark Lances will most likely be, it also went up 20pts so not really a buff anyways.
I feel kinda crap i don't use forge world. It's not so much i'm against it i just never bought from it before and normal 40k is too expensive for me as is. It's sad though. I feel like if i don't go forge world that dark eldar has a really hard time right now.
I think i'm gonna go heavy on dark technomancers and hex rifle acothysts as well as haemonculus with hex rifles. I'm trying to aim for secondary objectives but i just don't think i can make them without playing the objective point holding game. Sadly dark eldar have issues holding ground esp. when we go first. The other issue is we have to kill opponents off objectives and that's easier said than done. I suppose i should up my infantry killing through the roof in the future to handle obsec but i'm just not sure that's what i need.
I have an old edition (second hand) Raider with a magnetised converted huge cannon under the chassis that I play as a Reaper now and then, and no one complained.
If someone does, I have more people to play with.
All of that is fine until I go back to games workshop again. That said i prefer the local flgs to playing at gw now.
Gw is more of a springboard to meet people to play warhammer with. However it could work to kitbash. I've done extremely limited model kitbashing. I think I had an old hellion that I had a hellion leader holding a skull in his hand. It just sorta worked out. I've never done extreme model work. It sounds fun but the price is always a problem. A kitbashed reaper could work though.
Guys I'm having a bit of trouble with dark eldar in 9th. I can't shoot or melee some enemies off objectives fast enough. I may use minimum squad size reavers as a small screen to prevent deep strike being effective against me. As people have said we tend to be too squishy to hold points but fast enough to take them. I've been rolling up getting 2nd turn a lot tho. Oddly enough I may spam anti light infantry and anti-meq so that i can get rid of enemy obsec units and what tends to be some of an armys faster models. God i dont know. I may get more grotesques and shredders or poison as well as some dissies. Sadly dissies don't seem to kill off enemy infantry fast enough and the poke an enemy to death from a distance just isn't that effective anymore due to needing mass firepower right away.
I also may spam hex rifles with dark technomancers wracks units in raiders so I can get some character assassination. It's probably a waste of time even if I have like 8 to 10 hex rifles.
DE is in a hard spot right now, which is not all that bad for winning games. The problem is its not as fun to play b.c of how we have to play to win.
You need meat to hold objectives or MSU on each objective. Grots are great at this and so are wracks.
You'll need some fire power eithe rin melee or shooting, well Grots that does for Melee. Reapers/Ravagers for shooting along with things like Mandrakes.
You have to focus hard on 2-3 objectives, get your scramblers and engage for each turn. Basically ignoring the 4th-6th objectives completely.
Your goal should not be to play like other armies, example; Quins, sisters, marines, custodes, daemons, where you can deny their primary and secondaries, instead focus on maxing your points. This will give them a higher score, but if you can play it right you should be 75-90pts compare to 60-70pts unless you just completely out match them (which can happen).
I'm thinking of just shooting enemies off of objectives and capping easier objectives myself. However it may be more important to deny the enemy at least 1 or even 2 of the primary objectives due to shooting enemies off of easy objectives. I may have to stay away from center objective though. As was said before it tends to get clogged with enemies and dark eldar can't fight in those circumstances.
Yeah don't go to the center, vs an marines or custodes, but at the same time don't let them pick off units easily as well.
We can't really out shoot a lot of armies right now, we have tools to camp a couple objectives, use them, if you can lock down 2 objectives for sure over 3 turns, then you can shoot holes into another objective.
Also Incubi/Draz can go and take objectives if you wanted to deny and take. Have vehicles and small 5mans in them shoot up to support.
harlokin wrote: I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that GW simply scrubbed the Reaper's gun's special rule, standardised the damage, and left it at that.
The gun looks like a supersized Haywire Blaster, and I think it would have been fitting to give it the Haywire rules.
"Just like the Reaper you knew, but a bit blander"
Eh... I feel the reaper is a bit of a wash.
At least the beam profile is more reliable in being D3 +3, rather than the swingy D6. Can't tell you how many times I roll a 1 or 2 for numbers of shots on this thing.
harlokin wrote: I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that GW simply scrubbed the Reaper's gun's special rule, standardised the damage, and left it at that.
The gun looks like a supersized Haywire Blaster, and I think it would have been fitting to give it the Haywire rules.
"Just like the Reaper you knew, but a bit blander"
Eh... I feel the reaper is a bit of a wash.
At least the beam profile is more reliable in being D3 +3, rather than the swingy D6. Can't tell you how many times I roll a 1 or 2 for numbers of shots on this thing.
I agree that D3+3 is much better than D6, but GW seems to be applying that sort of change across the whole game to previously D6 weapons; it wasn't a buff just for the Reaper.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah don't go to the center, vs an marines or custodes, but at the same time don't let them pick off units easily as well.
We can't really out shoot a lot of armies right now, we have tools to camp a couple objectives, use them, if you can lock down 2 objectives for sure over 3 turns, then you can shoot holes into another objective.
Also Incubi/Draz can go and take objectives if you wanted to deny and take. Have vehicles and small 5mans in them shoot up to support.
I'm just super unsure about incubi. I was never really impressed with them since late 7th when toughness and wounds started really going up. I may change my mind but a toughness 3 body with 1 wound even with a 3+ armor still goes down pretty fast esp. Without sub faction traits.
I was thinking for a time to use clawed fiends of all things due to -1 ap 2 damage but I just decided to focus on a whole lot of other anti infantry options instead. Clawed fiends are also only about as durable as 2 toughness boosted reavers so you'd have to hit combat out of DS and be sure of it. Even that is a bit fragile for my tastes.
Funny thing is I finally used wracks with liquifiers and dark technomancers in venoms in limited numbers and they hit pretty hard. Sadly about half of them ended up dying after turn 1 or 2 from liquifiers getting hot basically. The boost and auto hits from flamer as well as strong D3 ap and damage 2 means it can actually do a fair number on plenty of vehicles.
Incubi are 1+ save in cover when you use the stratagem, combine with a 6+++ they take a lot to kill unless its high AP. They always do well in 9th once you learn how to use them. Yeah if they are solo up the board they will die. But as DE now in 9th you need support, support them and have other targets to force them to spread their damage, or concentrate way to much to kill 1 thing or 1 side.
I suppose i could try them. I only have 5 right now though of the old style model. Maybe if i got at least 10 more. On the plus side unlike grotesques you could fit 10 in a raider and they can go in venoms. Also points vs points it's about 3 incubi for every grotesques for the same cost and though they get no bonuses at least they can be taken with any detachment. Also incubi should have more attacks per the same cost. My issue is strength 4 might be a big deal vs the str 5 or more of grotesques vs heavily armored toughness 4 units. It still feels a bit fragile to me and i still prefer inv. saves to normal armor saves in most cases.
Hello all! Welcome me to your halls I have joined your ranks. I just bought into dark Eldar as I'd like to call them. Im in need of some help I bought:
Two boxes of kabalite
Drazhar
And a venom.
I was wondering if that's a good start and how would you round that up playing 1000 point games. What should I buy next?
Depends how competitive you want to be or casual. If you want to be competitive normally lots of warriors may be a bad idea. Gw made all our troops expensive in points. Venoms are best with covens and dark technomancers.
I honestly don't know what would be best for you at this point. We usually avoid wych cults for the most part but you do need things that can grab objectives and hold them. Maybe get some grotesques?
Considering you don't have much that will make your list more open to go any route really. Just make sure you have a haemonculus and archon at least since you'll usually need em due to our split 3 subfaction faction.
ballzonya wrote: Hello all! Welcome me to your halls I have joined your ranks. I just bought into dark Eldar as I'd like to call them. Im in need of some help I bought:
Two boxes of kabalite
Drazhar
And a venom.
I was wondering if that's a good start and how would you round that up playing 1000 point games. What should I buy next?
I love the models and look I'm super excited.
Based on what you have already, for a 1K army I would recommend starting with:
Transports (Venoms or Raiders, but probably the latter) - our fragile infantry really need them.
Incubi - They would give you some close combat, and they synergise well with your Drazhar.
Sslyth - Well pointed, useful in 9th ed, and a pretty cool model.
Ravager - Something to deal with enemy vehicles. A Reaper, Razorwing, or Voidraven are all also options for this, depends on your tastes and financial resources.
This is obviously not competitive at the moment, but would provide a good, fun, basis for some initial games.
Most of our model range look fantastic, welcome to Commorragh
Awesome thank you for the advice! I choose them cause I like the model range and refuse to buy resin lol. I'm not into competitive scene but I do like to win some times so I hope with a codex things will improve.
I feel like an idiot for suggesting not to use warriors and then turning around and trying to re-vamp my old idea of large warrior blobs with shredders out of DS via our psychic awakening supplement which allows multiple webway portal DS with Kabal and then combining this with our failed leadership check only forces one model to run away. I'm thinking three 20 man warrior blobs and an archon for the re-roll 1's to hit because i found missing shots tends to really bite us.
As of this moment i'm mostly going to try this build because honestly i already have most of what i need in order to use it. Also i'm not sure if warriors by themselves cost a lot of points or if it costs a lot combined with our expensive transports. I realize 9 pts for warriors is bad but our shredders kind of excite me and i don't feel like tearing apart 12 shredder warrior models to turn them into scourge models yet again if trueborn ever comes back.
I'll check out incubi+drazhar later though because you guys really interested me.
Warriors are bad sadly. They only were taken lots of in 8th b.c they were cheap and venoms were cheap too. Kabals can not hold objectives or do enough damage for their points. They need to be 7pts at least.
I agree and I wouldn't do this normally but it's what I have built. Also seeing as how our transports are so expensive (90 or more points). They aren't really good either for fire output of what they are and you have to take a unit in them at the start to run them. Even if I took 10 naked warriors in a raider that'd be about 190 pts without upgrades or for the same in a venom about 150 pts and more likely you take wracks with covens for dark technomancers which are even more expensive.
I'm not saying our transports aren't nice with speed but going both for warriors is bad. I know warriors are bad but sadly as i said itll be a while before i can get enough incubi to field well and i dont want to break shredders off warriors and mishap ruining models to put them on scourge only to find out trueborn are coming back or scourge are or aren't valid.
Anyway I will try the incubi approach because oddly enough they are more cost effective in points than most of our troop choices and they have a lot more attacks than grotesques for the same points and better armor piercing. I just cant afford incubi in money right now. I just hope the game doesn't change significantly by the time I have enough incubi.
Had a couple low point games recently using wych cults, won a 1000 pt game vs necrons lost a 500 pt game vs grey knights.
One unit that worked surprisingly well in the 1000 pt game was a unit of 10 scourges with 4 dark lances holding a backline primary objective. Granted I was playing against a full melee enemy but the ability to pick off his Lychguard across the map and reposition easily when threatened was damn useful. probably not as good vs shooting lists but then again they can get a 2+ save with a 1cp strategem that doesn't really have any other good targets in most of my lists.
Hypex was very effective on succubi, so much mobility to gank enemy characters, contest or secure objectives, and lead an enemy unit on a merry chase. It almost let me take back the 500 pt game and got me almost a third of my secondary vps by herself as well as contested to reduce enemy primaries effectively. (Should have been closer to half of secondary vp but I stupidly took thin their ranks instead of slay the warlord) by herself despite only living for 3 turns in the 1000 pt game.
MVPs were definitely venoms though, respectable damage through weight of dice vs infantry, useable durability against low strength attacks and the mobility to guarantee positioning secondaries.
I have a lot of experience with scourge and most types of squad loadout with them. Dark lance scourge sound good until you have a dedicated shooting unit with anti infantry firepower hitting it that also avoids cover. I think in one case it was that chaos chain gun murder gun thing in one squad with boosts. Last time I tried what you had with like 6 or 7 scourge per squad with dark lances and I had probably 6 of them left. This was in 8th however I think.
The problem with scourge since 8th is they're an extremely fragile unit meant for quick potent suicide runs of mostly anti tank. In 7th heat lances would pop a tank with just one squad. Now that monsters and vehicles are tougher most scourge weapons aren't good enough esp. With negative to hit modifiers, invulnerable saves, fnp and the like. I once sent out 3 squads of scourge minimum size with blasters. I did 4 wounds on a chaos predator due to inv. And similar and then he just killed all 3 squads like nothing next turn. My advice with blasters on any platform I've tried them on is don't bother and don't waste your time.
The reason why blasters usually suck is short range and anything that uses them tends to be fragile unless you do warriors in a raider and both are inefficient in points right now. The problem with short range is if the enemy is gun-line and castles up then you're getting a lot of return fire next turn and if they're assault then they'll be assaulted without fail. Normally this would make blaster scourge ideal since they'll die anyway but usually blasters disappoint due to being less effective since 8th. There is a possibility you can use blaster warriors even in raiders and it'd cost a lot but you'd likely have to create screens for your blaster units which oddly would work best with reavers which are one of the few blaster equipping units tho sadly blasters are still ineffective and reavers cost too much anyway in any significant number. In 9th blasters on reavers are just a terrible idea due to points and the fact they still get charged and then can't shoot back when they leave combat anymore.
Dark lance is great but infantry are just too fragile and they don't count the weapon as assault like vehicles do. Also vehicles tend to be more durable and take the shots better. I think the closest I tried lately to what you're going for is dark lance raiders with a dark lance warrior inside and some blasters just in case. Sadly warriors and transports cost too much now. As far as haywire goes it's sometimes fun and sometimes depressing. It has alright range and the damage is less random than dark lances I think but it just doesn't do enough.
Scourge with shardcarbines used to be fun in 7th once in a while against medium infantry like hive guard or ogryns or medium monsters like carnifex but everything has far too many wounds now and poison remains as depressing as ever. Scourge with shredders should be good though for anti infantry. People may prefer mandrakes now but incubi and grotesques still get praise for infantry killing. I'm shocked incubi are finally relevant again honestly.
Generally our anti tank goes best on vehicles because infantry die too fast. However with the game being about objectives and ds units now and infantry often getting congested around objective points I find anti infantry but mostly anti-meq or anti medium infantry (something that kills sisters or necrons fairly well) to be better.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I have a lot of experience with scourge and most types of squad loadout with them. Dark lance scourge sound good until you have a dedicated shooting unit with anti infantry firepower hitting it that also avoids cover. I think in one case it was that chaos chain gun murder gun thing in one squad with boosts. Last time I tried what you had with like 6 or 7 scourge per squad with dark lances and I had probably 6 of them left. This was in 8th however I think.
The problem with scourge since 8th is they're an extremely fragile unit meant for quick potent suicide runs of mostly anti tank. In 7th heat lances would pop a tank with just one squad. Now that monsters and vehicles are tougher most scourge weapons aren't good enough esp. With negative to hit modifiers, invulnerable saves, fnp and the like. I once sent out 3 squads of scourge minimum size with blasters. I did 4 wounds on a chaos predator due to inv. And similar and then he just killed all 3 squads like nothing next turn. My advice with blasters on any platform I've tried them on is don't bother and don't waste your time. Dark lance is great but infantry are just too fragile and they don't count the weapon as assault like vehicles do. Also vehicles tend to be more durable and take the shots better. I think the closest I tried lately to what you're going for is dark lance raiders with a dark lance warrior inside and some blasters just in case. Sadly warriors and transports cost too much now. As far as haywire goes it's sometimes fun and sometimes depressing. It has alright range and the damage is less random than dark lances I think but it just doesn't do enough.
Scourge with shardcarbines used to be fun in 7th once in a while against medium infantry like hive guard or ogryns or medium monsters like carnifex but everything has far too many wounds now and poison remains as depressing as ever. Scourge with shredders should be good though for anti infantry. People may prefer mandrakes now but incubi and grotesques still get praise for infantry killing. I'm shocked incubi are finally relevant again honestly.
Generally our anti tank goes best on vehicles because infantry die too fast. However with the game being about objectives and ds units now and infantry often getting congested around objective points I find anti infantry but mostly anti-meq or anti medium infantry (something that kills sisters or necrons fairly well) to be better.
Agree. In bigger games my anti tank will probably be haywire Talos and/or min size DS scourges with heat lances. Figured at 1000 pts the big lance unit would perform adequately (which it certainly did) and I was limited to Cults so beggars can't be choosers for anti vehicle weapons.
Only teaser was improved Incubi: They all hit on 2s now, all weapons improved by +1S and +1D.
They also said all Troops have been adjusted by stats and the vast majority of weapons changed to (in most cases) improve lethality. We'll see...
Yeah, I've been trying to reconfigure my armies and work on my next project (Black Templars) but there's been such an overhaul in points values, rules and stat lines that I'm kind of at an impasse as far as army building. I can't write a proper list until the codex comes out.
Everything is in such a flux right now, its really annoying.
I just striped and restarted painting my SW. All through 8th and 9th I have been on Nids and GSC. And my 4th army are DE and now a new codex comes out! Good. But I am having a sensory overload!
I am very excited seeing how incubi have been boosted. Personally i find our new codex's cover art to be one of the worst we've ever had. That said don't judge a book by its cover ;P.
I just hope the book is actually good. It seems they're doing away with the old 3 sub-faction style and incubi very much are having a return to form being a very scary unit that chops marines down with ease. I'm almost wondering if i should get new models with the combination of a lockdown in my current state followed by the codex update. May as well save money till after the codex drops.
I may be wrong but the incubi seem to lack the 6's to wound do +2 damage rule. Either they don't show it or that special rule was taken away....like all our others. Eh at least they're better in every single other aspect and likely they do more damage (except against vehicles and monsters probably).
So far in the SM, SW and Necron codex they have made things that was way to good much worse. And bad things got a whole lot better. (This might be true for deathwatch as well but I am not well informed.) This cab be very, very good for us.
Hopefully things will be really good. I am a bit consirned because they are moving away from mono builds, and DE have always been about transport. We will see. :-) But so far so good (except the cover art.)
Niiai wrote: So far in the SM, SW and Necron codex they have made things that was way to good much worse. And bad things got a whole lot better. (This might be true for deathwatch as well but I am not well informed.) This cab be very, very good for us.
Hopefully things will be really good. I am a bit consirned because they are moving away from mono builds, and DE have always been about transport. We will see. :-) But so far so good (except the cover art.)
And that concerns me in the case of ravagers because ravagers have been getting neutered a lot and they're still decent. They can nerf Talos a bit though. I never really used em and they're always seemingly good.
I'm cautiously optimistic for this. No more monkeying with subfactions might make list building more practical. I liked the three subfaction thing in principle but in execution I felt it wasn't handled with the integration it needed with the core ruleset. They say we will be getting more lethal which allows me to hope we might actually get the glass cannon feeling back and may be able to fight properly as opposed to relying on solely coven and objective camping as our means to victory. That's a good coven way to play but not Kabal or Cult at all. The statlines of incubi look promising. Also did the Klaivex always have 2 wounds or is that new?
I don't know if I'm in the minority here but I personally love the artwork on the cover here. It looks to be the same artist that did a lot of the interior art for our current codex and perhaps the Daughters of Khaine book too? I actually really like the style and find it more suitable for our army over the style they use for Marine codexes. The only concern I have is I can't tell if the character at the front is supposed to be a Wych or a Kabalite? Too much armor for Wych but too many knives for Kabalite. Either way if it's the same artist as the DoK book inside I'll be thrilled.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I may be wrong but the incubi seem to lack the 6's to wound do +2 damage rule. Either they don't show it or that special rule was taken away....like all our others. Eh at least they're better in every single other aspect and likely they do more damage (except against vehicles and monsters probably).
Lethal Precision is an ability, not a part of the statline. They only showed the stats, and I'm sure they're not losing the abilities.
About the art, I love it, I've always been a fan of Wyches
Ah you may be right Niiai, I believe I was thinking of the cover of the 8th edition 2.0 marine dex. These do have a lot of similarities but I'm wondering if it still may be two different artists. They may have had a "style brief" for the covers so ours and the marine dex have 2 different artists emulating the same style, something just feels a bit different with the marine dex over the Drukhari one.
Anyways this isn't tactics so I won't derail the thread with it. Suffice to say I do like the art.
Yeah, I do indeed think it is an art style by different artists. Digitally draw and they stop a few steps before they are all done. More like last stage consept art. I like the SW one, but the SM and DE codex is not so good. I have not studied the others.
That beeing said cover art is not a selling point for me anyway. I just want a good codex. Perhaps we even get a new model: Baron Satonyx, Vect, Blood Brides or Trueborn all comes to mind. Although just new rules for bad units would go a long way. Everything so far is good :-)
-Give hellions a clear purpose and playstyle, love the models and I want to use them so bad.
-Make our HQs feel on the table how they behave in the lore. Archon should be good in a fight but his main way to operate should be as a scheming force multiplier, give him some ways to manipulate things or have some dirty tricks. Succubus should be an amazing duelist and scary for enemy characters to face, raise her points and make her worth those points in lethality. 50 points is too cheap and there's no room in design space with that to make her an adequate duelist. Haemy... weird one cause +1T is actually still good. Maybe tinker with his wargear options a bit? Also make it so we can have good HQs without having to rely on specific warlord trait and relic combos, I don't want to feel punished for trying to take more than one of each.
-We are fast but really only thanks to strats compared to other armies. Those have scaling issues. Make us natively fast. I play scions and a Taurox Prime moves just as fast as a Raider but is tougher and has way more firepower. On that note I get why we don't have skyboard or bike options for our HQs, there is no model. There should be, but there isn't sadly. In the mean time for the love of the Dark City please bump our transports to 6 and 11 for Venoms and Raiders respectively.
-Just let me pick the combat drugs I want. I despise playing the distribution game, it's cumbersome and janky and I hate it. Bake the drug cost in to the wyches and hellions etc and let me just have my pick.
-Poison... oh boy that rule needs some help. Do something.
Those are the main things I'd like to see resolved. As for models I would prefer our existing finecast models get good proper plastic releases before we get in to special characters. Characters are cool but often locked to factions that you may not play so they don't help you at all. Grotesques, mandrakes, court, and beasts can help any Drukhari army.
Looking it those sick new van saar skyboarders make our hellions look like gak...
personal wishlisting
Make ghostplate effective, thereby making scourges more than just suicide AT squad.
make characters scary, make characters fit in a fething transport with a squad in a raider... make character auras apply to units in said transport....
bring back clone field and options for characters. remove the drawback on the shadowfield, T3 2++ model isnt that oppressive anymore when there are units that can vomit out 108 attacks. or rework shadowfield to be like a storm shield but let the characters have real armor that would make use of it.
bring back trueborn/bloodbrides etc etc, while they were only around for a short time having a veteran option of our base units isnt a bad thing...
bring back the scores of characters they deleted, also when we have primarchs and chapter masters running around where big daddy vect.
rework power from pain and combat drugs.
rework poison, i dont know if it needs to combine every poison buff trait in psychic awakening to make it work but it would be a nice start (6+ to hit auto wounds, 6+ to wound +1 damage, strength > T +1 to wound) etc etc... or a fundamental rework.
footdar needs to be a thing for more than just covens.
expand out mercenaries. let some units who dont benefit from army wide abilities benefit from them (incubi, scourges).
make the court of the archon not absolute garbage, give me a reason to them.
give our aircraft 2 turns, we are suppose to be the fastest most maneuverable race around and we get out maneuvered by eldar.
more vehicles!!!
rework the telos back to the scorpion, it was way cooler than the garbage model we have now.
affordable grotesques, but knowing GW if they gave us a new model it would somehow cost more than the current ones (see sisters of battle being more expensive than metal sisters)
build your faction rules that arent 100% insulting melee abilities on kabal... though melee kabal should be a viable thing.
more relics more gear options, new weapons, etc etc...
Well it's probably too late to change anything they've already done for our codex or more likely haven't done for our models. At least rules can be changed a bit but I imagine it's too late for anything but a post release FAQ.
I already suggested that open topped transports should work like the whole vehicle has the aura instead. Realistically you can see the archon and they should be able to talk to their troops since they can see them face to face.
Shadowfields needs to be as good as it was in 7th at least where if it fails once it still lasts the rest of the phase. I just want dark eldar characters to be scary again rather than completely neutered.
Footdar would be fun if they allowed lots of webway assaults.
Poison needs serious boosts esp. AP, boosting to wound and damage per shot or melee attack.
If I recall sub factions are gone in this new codex.
Agreed with both vehicles and aircraft. I honestly just want a super heavy vehicle or monster and/or shooty bikes. Maybe a new reaver kit that makes multiple different units.
Oh god do we need new grotesques. Give em a new weapon option too or a couple more.
Agreed on kabal but if we had trueborn still it wouldn't have been as insulting.
Omg new special and heavy weapons would be a god send. Can you imagine if we had an assault version of dissies, shredders on bikes or our grav talons and cluster caltrops didn't suck. That'd be great.
warmaster21 wrote: bring back clone field and options for characters. remove the drawback on the shadowfield, T3 2++ model isnt that oppressive anymore when there are units that can vomit out 108 attacks. or rework shadowfield to be like a storm shield but let the characters have real armor that would make use of it.
We definitely need more options.
But 2++ without a drawback would definitely be too good. Your archon will spend most of his time within look-out-sir range until it's time to get into combat, and then he will be almost invincible (especially in character-to-character combat). I think the Shadowfield should be a 3+ invul (no fizzling out, can be re-rolled), and on an unmodified saving throw of 1, you take a mortal wound in addition to any other damage. Simple, no bookkeeping, and more unique than the ubiquitous 4++.
IMO the best rules for the shadowfield would be if you fail it you lose it for the rest of the phase.
Keeps the fluff of being able to overload it and the weakness to massed attacks, but means an unlucky roll to a single shot is nowhere near as devastating.
Means you can be a bit tactical about where you expose the Archon.
I'd be fine with shadowfield if it was simply 2++ until you fail a save then you lose it at the END of that phase as it reverts to a 5++. Means no more rolling single dice waiting for a 1, you can batch roll all your saves and they will be all 2++ even if you fail one or more but after the phase is over it's only 5++. Means you could potentially shoot the shield out prior to a charge to make the Archon more vulnerable and on our end we don't have to roll bloody saves one at a time.
Maybe have the Shadowfield reduce it's invulnerable save by 1 every time it's failed. 2++>3++>4++ etc.
Ghostplate should probably be 4+ save, 5++ invulnerable and possibly -1 to hit.
Although, I feel like this army should get -1 to hit for the first like turn or two anyway. Called Strike from the shadows or something.
I don't know if and when they plan on giving us a Truborn unit but if if they do they should come with Ghostplate and Shard Carbines standard.
It would be nice if they made DE a true glass cannon. Maybe we can have actually powerful weapons without downsides for once. Kinda like Marines have always had?
Or maybe they should give our bikes -1 to hit which would make it behind harlequins, gsc and maybe eldar or ork bikes.
-1 army-wide for turn 1 isn't asking much considering the boosts i saw necrons get in my last game.
Trueborn used to have shardcarbines in 5th i think. Sadly we lost both shardcarbines on trueborn since then and then the trueborn themselves.
I don't mind downsides but we should be the fastest faction and with some of the most potent weapons but fragile as a paper plane. Sadly they only get the paper plane fragility right atm.
Anyway all of our wish-listing isn't really gonna matter until they do an FAQ or a supplement for dark eldar. Oddly we seem to be getting a campaign book soon too. I think Admech is gonna be one of the next codexes given the campaign book.
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Edit:
Ok so i just noticed something i found a bit odd. Warriors have a 5+ armor save like guardsmen but in many cases their armor looks fairly solid at the front like tempestus scions. If this is the case shouldn't we accept armor saves for warriors along the lines of the scions? Here's the pictures for example:
Kabalite armor at 5+ makes sense to me. It offers more coverage than Cadian flak vest but it's way thinner it seems. Scions are fine at 4+ but I don't think our Kabs need 4+, just make them more lethal and give us tricks to survive not just plain stat boosts.
Also going by size Kab armor is almost non-existent compared to Scion armor which is super thick in comparison. If I had to pick from a game designer standpoint the Kab armour should never match value with the Scion plate.
If they aren't in a boat or in cover they're dead if someone looks at them the wrong way. I don't want to risk another points increase for basically the same amount of protection. Plus it adds to the fragile nature of the army.
Strangely, it seems like GW has long been attempting to increase the survivability of this army with various special rules. Everything dies in this modern game, quickly. Concentrate on the lethality of the army, not the survivability.
I agree here Brutus_Apex. Unless it's a Coven unit survivability should be a non-point for us. Kabs and Wyches should be scary and able to dish out pain. Die if you look at them sternly enough but otherwise will ruin your day.
I agree. Transports are (and should be) essential to how the Drukhari play. IMO we need to be able to shoot out of our transports if they are in close combat, and be able to charge after the transport has moved.
Hello ballzonya the answer to your question is we have a codex coming out soon so any tactics we could give you will be obsolete soon.
We tend to run scourge in squads of 5 as a suicide anti tank unit but they weren't really great in 9th or even most of 8th. I used to use dark lance scourge so trust me. Scourge sound fun but in 8th they're not so good at anti tank due to how powerful tanks and monsters got. They usually deep strike, under perform and then die.
I've heard scourge maybe being ok with shredders but our codex is coming too soon to know what'll be good or bad for sure.
Might as well. Even if you use the scourges and Hellions for conversion material they got some amazing parts in there. And I am cautiously optimistic that both those units will be better in the new codex. It's not like they can get worse right?
I run haywires, but would drop them from my list if I hadn't just finished painting the unit. I get more haywire damage from three Talos, which get to shoot on turn 1 and usually get more than one shooting phase. I might try heat lances because my common opponents just aren't using vehicles anymore.
For a deepstriking unit they often need to forgo shooting to perform an action or be durable enough to stick around for one turn, and Scourges are poor choices for both.
But they are so beautiful models! I had to buy them for that price
I'm pretty sure they'll bet better in a couple months. Same with Hellions, if they get a way to stay alive and some AP those D2 Hellglaives could be strong.
No, make it a option like older editions, Archons used to be able to pick the armor they wanted, let us pick the Incubi warsuit or Shadowfield, honestly they should just have a 3+ and a 4+ standard but w/e.
Blasters are not like Melta, just give back the Lance rule, +1 to wound vs Vehicles.
Poison just needs Str4 and then its fine. Don;t need auto wound or +1 to wound stuff.
Denegaar wrote: How would you word the Poison rule with a Strenght value?
S4 and +1 to wound would be terrifying, wounding MEQ on 3+ would be super strong. I don't see it.
Str 4, Poison; When rolling to wound against non vehicle units never roll less than a 4+. (or 2+ if its a 2+ poison)
Id borrow the trait from psychic awakening. give poison a S value and fixed wound on 2+ / 4+ depending on type and give it a strengh value giving it +1 to wound if the poison strength is higher than the T of the model. would open up some more varience on the weapons.
if using previous example splinter rifles were S4, they would still wound meqs on 4's guard/elves on 3's, splinter cannons could be s5 wouding meqs/geqs on 3's whiel heavy mqs and deathguard on 4's still, or save the higher strength for the more exotic rarer weapons.
+1 to wounds can be modified and limited to being modified more, a base rule doesn't need modifications IMO. Just having a strength will let you wound on a 3+ if it is higher than the toughness already, so you are just making rules clutter.
Amishprn86 wrote: +1 to wounds can be modified and limited to being modified more, a base rule doesn't need modifications IMO. Just having a strength will let you wound on a 3+ if it is higher than the toughness already, so you are just making rules clutter.
You don't need a S characteristic if it modifies the to-wound roll. Poisoned wounds on a 4+, but if you have a +1 to your to-wound rolls than would trigger it on a 3+. Honestly I feel like Poisoned just needs to be changed to read like: "Poisoned Weapon (4+)". We can define them to always wound on a 6+ against vehicles and explain that they'll always have a target number for non-vehicle units listed in their profile and it'd work fine.
On a different note, I'm slowly building some Incubi at the moment, but I've got a Talos/Chronos box sitting on my desk to work on next. Any recommendations, or should I just leave the weapons off for now?
You don't need +1 to wound if you had strength though, why do we need +1 to wound when strength is already in the game to give us that 3+/2+ to wound vs low targets?
If you are building something, i would just not glue on the weapons for now, our book will be out in a couple months for sure, but currently Scalpels and HWB or Sting pods for cheap and if you don't need anti tank.
I'm slowly building some Incubi at the moment, but I've got a Talos/Chronos box sitting on my desk to work on next. Any recommendations, or should I just leave the weapons off for now?
I found the Talos to be one of the simplest models to magnetise for different weapon options. The hands pop in and out - you almost don't even need magnets - and if you snip the ball at the end of the tail in half and glue a magnet, the other magnet will fit in the space on the tail weapon. I'm not sure what changes to make it a Chronos though so don't know if it's easy to magnetise between the two options entirely.
Amishprn86 wrote: +1 to wounds can be modified and limited to being modified more, a base rule doesn't need modifications IMO. Just having a strength will let you wound on a 3+ if it is higher than the toughness already, so you are just making rules clutter.
the difference if there was a S6 or even S8 poison weapon but the intention was for it to only ever wound on a 3+ max (poisoned 4+ with a +1 to wound roll ability) would stop it from ever wounding on a 2+ from its strength, granted could just have a limit of to a maxmium of 3+ to wound or something. and GW already made the strength poison +1 to wound thing as a melee trait on psychic awakening, so their rules clutter.
I wouldnt build a Talos right now until we see the Codex, I really hope the Cronos gets better too, I really like the model.
It could be a good flamer platform if it gets S4 on their weapons and the range improvement.j
On a side note, I've just seen the last week SkaredCast 2k point Drukhari vs Newcrons (feat. Silent King) and I'm pretty impressed with what Drukhari can achieve with a good pilot even vs a new codex. Of course, none of the lists were refined, and the game was crazy on the RNG, but it makes me optimistic that with the correct tweaks and buffs we can remain being a good (and FUN) army
Denegaar wrote: I wouldnt build a Talos right now until we see the Codex, I really hope the Cronos gets better too, I really like the model.
It could be a good flamer platform if it gets S4 on their weapons and the range improvement.j
On a side note, I've just seen the last week SkaredCast 2k point Drukhari vs Newcrons (feat. Silent King) and I'm pretty impressed with what Drukhari can achieve with a good pilot even vs a new codex. Of course, none of the lists were refined, and the game was crazy on the RNG, but it makes me optimistic that with the correct tweaks and buffs we can remain being a good (and FUN) army
Yeah, Skari has shown some great stuff with the Drukhari. Paired with the Death Guard changes and how finely tuned they got the Necron codex dialed in I'm feeling pretty positive about the upcoming codex.
And fair point on the Talos. I signed up to do a painting oath for Black Templars out of the Indomitus box so that'll keep me busy until the codex drops and I get some time to dissect it and decided where to take my army.
Talking about Skari, he's playing Lelith lately, and it looks quite fun. Why is people not playing her? Red grief not worth? S3? Just not bothering with Cults?
Denegaar wrote: Talking about Skari, he's playing Lelith lately, and it looks quite fun. Why is people not playing her? Red grief not worth? S3? Just not bothering with Cults?
Hope we see the new model this Friday.
She is Cult of Strife, not Red Grief.
I made a list including her, but never got to play cos of COVID. I was interested as to whether their 'shoot again' strategem might be useful with Reapers and Tanatalus officially available to Wych Cult.
Denegaar wrote: Talking about Skari, he's playing Lelith lately, and it looks quite fun. Why is people not playing her? Red grief not worth? S3? Just not bothering with Cults?
Hope we see the new model this Friday.
B.c she is bad and has a bad trait. A wych unit out preforms her easily for the same points, heck a Succubus out preforms her most the time. But its Skari, he can make anything work.
Maybe the problem with her is that she is designed to be a Character Killer, but nowadays all HQs have 4++ or 5++, meaning that even if she hits and wounds with all of their penetrating attacks, she's not able to kill anyone.
I'm fine with her being a one vs one monster at 80 pts, but she should utterly destroy them. Maybe avoiding invulnerable saves, causing mortal wounds... IDK.
For the most part I like new lelith but gw seems to often have issues sculpting women's faces right now. Maybe it's just how gw paints their models. Maybe super angry or sad faces tend to look ugly in general. I dunno. In this case I oddly find the palatines facial expressions much better.
Aside from that I much prefer this reimagined lelith to revamped drazhar. Drazhar needed to keep the praying Mantis look imo. That's part of what drew me to him in the first place.
Photos and paintjob don't do her any favor. But it is true that she's thicker and angrier, and maybe a lot of people doesn't like that.
I do like the new model better than the old one, but I see why people generally doesn't like it.
I'm pretty sure the unpainted model in 360º will look way better. And we need to see those rules to see if she's worth the effort! I will buy her anyway because I have all the plastic characters.
I thought Drazhar was OK.... If anything, GW was too conservative in sculpting him; he is basically just a slightly fancier Klaivex, rather than someone unique.
The only bits I really dislike are the stupid scenic base, and the hair which is very thick, ropy and flat. I'm a bit frustrated that the new Leith seems to have similar detail-poor hair.
The funny bit is i'm on a drukhari facebook page and the players are split between being ok with it or not. Personally my only big issue is the awful face. GW seriously needs to look at the lore, get some female models to pose for them and then make that into an figurine. I mean really i've seen them do better. Just like all women don't need to be scarlet johansen not all women have to be an MMA fighter esp. where it doesn't make any sense. Personally i prefer escapism and realism not to be pushed so hard because if it was we wouldn't get undead and soulless robots, elves in space with psychic powers, chaos gods and so on. Just let 40k be fun and stupidly over the top again. I want an ork that straps 20 guns, flamers and melee weapons onto his mega armor because it's over the top and fun. Sorry for the rant.
I'm betting a lot of the divisiveness surrounding the new Lelith is down to paint job and photo angle.
Citadel always goes overboard with edge and accent highlighting because they want to accentuate all the details of the miniature. Sometimes this works, sometimes it doesn't. Personally I hate the Citadel painting style, but I understand why they do it.
The photo angle can really mess with the perception of a miniature, sometimes its really hard to capture the awesomeness of a 3 dimensional object through a 2 dimensional medium. For example, I didn't like the new Harlequins until I saw them in person, the photo of them on the box art does them no justice. It's just the way it is sometimes.
Do I think the new Lelith is amazing? No, I still prefer the old one. But I think it will be much better in person.
It looks that the acceptance of the new model depends on where do you ask. Drukhari Reddit users prefer the new one, for example.
I guess that actual people that play with the minis prefer the plastic version to the finecast one and, in general, people is happy that GW releases more plastic models for our small army.
I also agree that is going to look better in person.
Denegaar wrote: It looks that the acceptance of the new model depends on where do you ask. Drukhari Reddit users prefer the new one, for example.
I guess that actual people that play with the minis prefer the plastic version to the finecast one and, in general, people is happy that GW releases more plastic models for our small army.
I also agree that is going to look better in person.
I have 5th Metal one and I will for sure still be using it, the new one is ugly AFIMO.
I busted out the Dark Eldar last night in a game against a friend.
He brought Salamanders with a giant unit of 10 Terminators. These guys are really hard to shift with 30 wounds now. All Storm Bolters and 2 Assault Cannons deep striking into my back lines. Took out 1 Ravager with shooting and managed to make the charge into my other and destroy it. It really put me on my defensive and changed the entire game. It shattered my line. It swung the game from a loss on his part to a tie. I'm confident if he knew his army better (new army for him) he would have pulled out a win.
I suicide charged Drazhar and 5 Incubi into the Terminators and managed to kill all 10 of them. I used the Onslaught strat and their new Klaive profiles. These guys are absolute monsters. It's unreal the amount of damage only 5 Incubi can produce. Just don't get charged. They still can't take a hit.
Raiders and Ravagers seemed slow. It's weird to say, But strongly believe they should have their movement increased to 16 or even 18".
Voidraven Bomber is gak. The Void mine is a waste of time in a game of 2 wound marines. Dark Scythes are also bad.
Splinter Weapons are still just bad.
Archon is bad. Im tired of having his Shadowfield generator short out on the second hit. 2++ on a toughness 3 model with 5 wounds is not game breaking, and I'm tired of acting like it is. This guys need a complete overhaul with the new rules.
Brutus_Apex wrote: I busted out the Dark Eldar last night in a game against a friend.
He brought Salamanders with a giant unit of 10 Terminators. These guys are really hard to shift with 30 wounds now. All Storm Bolters and 2 Assault Cannons deep striking into my back lines. Took out 1 Ravager with shooting and managed to make the charge into my other and destroy it. It really put me on my defensive and changed the entire game. It shattered my line. It swung the game from a loss on his part to a tie. I'm confident if he knew his army better (new army for him) he would have pulled out a win.
I suicide charged Drazhar and 5 Incubi into the Terminators and managed to kill all 10 of them. I used the Onslaught strat and their new Klaive profiles. These guys are absolute monsters. It's unreal the amount of damage only 5 Incubi can produce. Just don't get charged. They still can't take a hit.
Raiders and Ravagers seemed slow. It's weird to say, But strongly believe they should have their movement increased to 16 or even 18".
Voidraven Bomber is gak. The Void mine is a waste of time in a game of 2 wound marines. Dark Scythes are also bad.
Splinter Weapons are still just bad.
Archon is bad. Im tired of having his Shadowfield generator short out on the second hit. 2++ on a toughness 3 model with 5 wounds is not game breaking, and I'm tired of acting like it is. This guys need a complete overhaul with the new rules.
We used to move 18" back in the day (24" if you don't shoot or disembark), honestly all DE vehicles should be up to 18" again.
Our flyers and Poison is just bad right now, honestly how 9th is, flyers didn't need the huge increase in points as no one wants many of them anyways.
I played two games this month with Incubi vs BA, one with tho old and one with the new profile. The change is obscene, if our other units receive half that improvement in lethality, we are going to be fine killing stuff. Of course we need other buffs in mobility, for example.
10pt reavers and 17pt hellions, I have a hunch someone mixed them up lol. Wonder if that'll make it into the codex.
I'm guessing the major points overhaul we're seeing here for drukhari and not other factions is due to the upcoming codex. I see:
Drazar: +30 XD
Archon: +5 if he has the Huskblade
Succubus: +5, no wargear options anymore (unless they're free I guess)
Lelith: +5
Urien: +5
Haemie: the same but no wargear (again, unless they're free)
Kabs: -1, Shredder and Blaster -5
Wyches: -1
Wracks: -4 damn son
Beastmaster: -5
Sslyth: -3
Grots: -5 and they get 5pt liquifiers instead of 10pt now
Reavers: probably -3
Hellions: Probably -4 (assuming 10pts is intended for them)
Ravager: -5
Raider: -5
Talos: -15 damn, also stinger and twin splinter and haywire and heat appear to be same cost?
Mandrakes: -2
Fiends: -10
Khymera: -2
Razorwing Flock: -2
Scourges: -2
Razorwing Fighter: -20
That's what I see, anyone else spot any other changes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: My guess is, our HQs are going to be getting some major stat improvements particularly to their 'signature weapons' and they're going to be chopping away their optionsto what you get in the plastic kit. So every archon will be splinter or blaster, venom or husk, and every succubus will be agonizer+Glaive, and every Haemie will be Tools+Stinger+Injector.
Scourges are 12 down from 15, so -3.
Also the weapons got improvements for them, both Blaster Scourges or Shredder Scourges got extra 5 pts cheaper.
35 points less for a MSU Scourge squad of Blasters is pretty good.
the_scotsman wrote: 10pt reavers and 17pt hellions, I have a hunch someone mixed them up lol. Wonder if that'll make it into the codex.
Needing to publish a FAQ/errata for the FAQ/errata is peak GW.
My guess is, our HQs are going to be getting some major stat improvements particularly to their 'signature weapons' and they're going to be chopping away their optionsto what you get in the plastic kit. So every archon will be splinter or blaster, venom or husk, and every succubus will be agonizer+Glaive, and every Haemie will be Tools+Stinger+Injector.
Succubi really need a Damage D3 or Damage 2 weapon. For characters who are fluffed as gladiators, they're really terrible at duelling other HQs.
"OUT OF PHASE RULES AND EMBARKING
ON TRANSPORTS
We wish to add an example to explain how the Out of Phase rules
apply to units. When a unit uses a rule to make a move as if it
were the Movement phase, all the normal rules that would apply in
the Movement phase apply when making that move. For example,
models in that unit cannot finish that move within Engagement
Range of any enemy models, and if every model in that unit
finishes that move wholly within 3" of a friendly Transport model,
they can embark within that Transport model following the
normal Movement phase rules regarding embarkation."
Main rulebook FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also of note for Drukhari:
"*Page 210 – Embark
Change the second sentence of the second paragraph to read:
‘Unless specifically stated, other units’ abilities have no effect on
units while they are embarked, and Stratagems cannot be used to
affect units while they are embarked.’"
it is now "OTHER MODELS abiliites" and not ALL abiliites. So abilities that the embarked unit has now work again, for those rules-purists who really thought it was RAI for stuff like Flayed Skull trait to no longer function.
Yeah especially when hellions are 17 points.. clearly they mixed the two up lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amishprn86 wrote: Wracks just broke the game. 6x20 wracks in PoF with the stratagem..... Reavers and Hellions most likely got mixed up.
For a whole month until they lose the invuln and black cornucopians lol.
Everyone should take a deep breath with these since the book is due in a month or so, and clearly things are changing. The DE book never has minor changes either.
From how the MFM is formatted it looks like the Court is back to being a single bodyguard unit instead of individuals wandering around. I always hated that those guys were just the easiest targets for first blood.
cuda1179 wrote: From how the MFM is formatted it looks like the Court is back to being a single bodyguard unit instead of individuals wandering around. I always hated that those guys were just the easiest targets for first blood.
cuda1179 wrote: From how the MFM is formatted it looks like the Court is back to being a single bodyguard unit instead of individuals wandering around. I always hated that those guys were just the easiest targets for first blood.
Nice find!!! That's good, for sure.
I actually kind of wish beasts would go back to a single unit too.
Brutus_Apex wrote:Where are these new points located? I can only seem to find the Errata.
FAQs on GW's community FAQ site
warmaster21 wrote:did they lower the unit size cap on the beasts and grotesques? could have sworn they were higher but dont have my book on hand at the moment.
Might be b.c of WWSWF has been changed to full units, having 10 Grots would be really hard to full kill, espiecally now they are 5pts cheaper and you can take 3 units of them with a 4++ or -1D that can heal once a turn.
warmaster21 wrote: did they lower the unit size cap on the beasts and grotesques? could have sworn they were higher but dont have my book on hand at the moment.
Yes. Grotesques used to be able to have units of 10 and now it's down to 6 max. I think clawed fiends were 6 and razorwing flocks and khymerae were 12 each.
cuda1179 wrote: From how the MFM is formatted it looks like the Court is back to being a single bodyguard unit instead of individuals wandering around. I always hated that those guys were just the easiest targets for first blood.
Man alive though would it ever be so easy to have them bring back Trueborns and Bloodbrides by allowing you to take TB BB and Acothysts in your Court unit depending on whether your detachment contains an Archon Succubus or Haemonculus... just give us Command Squads like other factions have, it's not that hard. If anything, it'd help drive sales of the Court models.
Especially now that the ENTIRE hyper-extensive weapons of torture melee weapon list is going to be limited to JUST the sergeants in Wrack squads..
If I'm not mistaken, GW is making units in the new Codexes that can be upgraded paying CP or points.
It wouldn't be madness that we could get one unit of Kabs, Wyches or Wracks or our list, pay like 50% more for them but upgrade them to Trueborns, Bloodbrides or Acothysts.
Denegaar wrote: If I'm not mistaken, GW is making units in the new Codexes that can be upgraded paying CP or points.
It wouldn't be madness that we could get one unit of Kabs, Wyches or Wracks or our list, pay like 50% more for them but upgrade them to Trueborns, Bloodbrides or Acothysts.
That would be a heck of an idea. Almost too good for GW to actually realize and implement.
I'd love to see it, but the only problem I'd have is that I'd really love them to copy the command squad structure exactly because
1) I don't want to see Trueborns/BBs spammable again
2) I'd really like them to be Unit Size 4, for what is hopefully obvious reasons.
Or just give us the same goddamn TC6/TC11 that everyone else has already :/ if you're THAT dedicated to every HQ being on-foot monoloadout melee build.
the_scotsman wrote: I'd love to see it, but the only problem I'd have is that I'd really love them to copy the command squad structure exactly because
1) I don't want to see Trueborns/BBs spammable again
2) I'd really like them to be Unit Size 4, for what is hopefully obvious reasons.
Or just give us the same goddamn TC6/TC11 that everyone else has already :/ if you're THAT dedicated to every HQ being on-foot monoloadout melee build.
Would spamming trueborn really even be a problem, you would be paying out the ass for T3 1w models with extra special weapon slots.... not to mention there is literally a kabal made almost entirely of trueborn.... also all those useless melee custom kabal traits might even work with 2a trueborn
the_scotsman wrote: I'd love to see it, but the only problem I'd have is that I'd really love them to copy the command squad structure exactly because
1) I don't want to see Trueborns/BBs spammable again
2) I'd really like them to be Unit Size 4, for what is hopefully obvious reasons.
Or just give us the same goddamn TC6/TC11 that everyone else has already :/ if you're THAT dedicated to every HQ being on-foot monoloadout melee build.
Would spamming trueborn really even be a problem, you would be paying out the ass for T3 1w models with extra special weapon slots.... not to mention there is literally a kabal made almost entirely of trueborn.... also all those useless melee custom kabal traits might even work with 2a trueborn
Imagine a Trueborn with a Blaster is 20, that's around 175 points for 5 of them in a Venom, that gives them pretty good armor and insane mobility. I think it should be a max number for todays standards. I don't know how to balance it though.
Capacities of 6 and 12 should be mandatory for all transports, and we are one of the most transport centric armies.
I agree we need at least +1 capacity on each transport, it sucks there is never room for our leaders to ride aboard... though i guess archons do prefer their own pleasure boats to themselves
For having super stripped down to the bare minimum to maximize speed and maneuverability (and yet somehow we arent super fast compared to the more armored eldar vehicles) we have less transport space (despite in previous edition having kabilites literally hanging off from nets and on the side of the vehicles)....
Don't even get me started. We had to deal with no trueborn for a while and then 9 points 3+ to hit guardsmen for most intents and purposes for just warriors instead of trueborn. I get the weapons were a bit different but 50% more than the cost of guardsmen is a steep flippin cost for just +1 to hit more. Poisoned weapons aren't even good against their intended targets.
Anyway considering all the things GW makes troops or objective secured do any of you think trueborn and bloodbrides should come back and if they do they should technically count as troops? I mean for Guard stormtroopers are currently Troop choices and they have a similar role as our scourge squads currently with a more modest cost. Admech has those kataphron robots as troops. Marines have a huge portion of troops. Even in the old days Dire Avengers were troops. Why can't Trueborn and even possibly scourge be troops? Well maybe not scourge but it'd certainly be silly and is one of several things making scourge not worth taking with the limit of 3 units. Who knows maybe we'll get a halfway decent fix. At least it couldn't be worse than 7th ed dark eldar going against the triple riptide or stormsurge garbage.
Sisters Rets, Doms, Celest's, and BSS all are the same model and literally the same kit. We should be able to get the same treatment, this is what makes me the most mad.
Trueborn 0-4 weapons and Bloodbride's 0-4 wych weapons
In my head, Trueborn are just cockier Kabalites. As they are higher in the Commorragh society, they have access to better weapons... but they are not much different than a Halfborn Warrior, so they should still be troops, IMO.
In 5th edition guards vet squads were troops. They moved em back to elites but stormtroopers are currently troops. Yeah a unit with a similar role to our scourge including the armor and less points. Currently trueborn don't exist but if we are looking for an even playing field making them troops wouldn't be asking too much. It could potentially solve our firepower problems provided gw doesn't price them ridiculously. Of course they'd often be an auto include if they did exist again unless gw could make the rest of our codex worth a damn.
Took Drazhar out of my lists for now. IMO as is he is not worth 135pts. Took Lelith for a couple games and surprisingly she did well. Not as good as a TriSuccubus for Strife, but good enough, sadly she doesn't use up any drugs (its her fluff so thats fine) but that means i can't have more +atks on more wych units if taking a lot, now that is also a plus if you are taking limited Wych units like 2 Wyches, 1 Reaver units, but if you are taking 3 Reaver units and want +1T on them all, then she is not the HQ for you.
I only took 1 Reaver unit of 9 at 10pts as I am 100% sure Hellions and Reavers points got mixed up. I also think Wracks and Wyches got mixed up or Wracks are not supposed to be 5-20, so I played only 2 units of 15 to be a bit nicer and preparing for the change back.
Over all the new updated points are fine besides Drazhar, could he have gone up? Yes, but I would have only done 15pts at most.
I can't see myself playing anything else than Crusade until the Codex drops.
