Is it that bad though? Are any armies retaining any strategems that allow them to gain a command point back?

But let's say we weren't comparing this strategem just to the old Agents of Vect strategem and were just comparing it to every one out there. This strategem costs 0CP, so thats awesome, its just a free buff.

You use it the first time your opponent rerolls something, the rest of the game, their 1CP reroll now costs 2 CP. That's pretty huge. And you didn't have to spend any CP to do that to them.

I played Flayed Skull the whole of 8th, so never got to use AoV.....I guess that won't change now, particularly with Poison Tongue looking a bit good.

 Denegaar wrote:
I think old Vect was pretty unfair, and really frustrating when rolled a 1. Almost never used it, I will use this one every game I play Black Heart.

Of course is not that strong.

In double DT wrack venom spam list with 1 patrol for 2 Ravagers and Vect. You basically only use CP on Vect and maybe lightning fast on a Ravager, sometimes to re-roll a dice too. You had lots of CP to use and could use Vect 2-3x a game.

There are some stratagems in the game that are literally insane compare to vect, so stopping those stratagems (and your opponents knows you will) changes the entire game flow and feeling, it was not only mental war game but also a good tactical one.

This new stratagem is worthless at both, the opponent will just spend their CP a bit more wisely and thats it. Most stratagems that are spammed and strong are not even used every game other than 3, Lightning fast, Prismatic Blur (Quins +1 invul), and Single-Minded Annihilation (nids shoot twice). Most others are 2-3x per game. Nids always here CP fine, all 3 Eldar can use Lightning and Quins can use Blur so really its only good against Aeldari and that makes it feel even worst.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I think old Vect was pretty unfair, and really frustrating when rolled a 1. Almost never used it, I will use this one every game I play Black Heart.

Of course is not that strong.

In double DT wrack venom spam list with 1 patrol for 2 Ravagers and Vect. You basically only use CP on Vect and maybe lightning fast on a Ravager, sometimes to re-roll a dice too. You had lots of CP to use and could use Vect 2-3x a game.

There are some stratagems in the game that are literally insane compare to vect, so stopping those stratagems (and your opponents knows you will) changes the entire game flow and feeling, it was not only mental war game but also a good tactical one.

This new stratagem is worthless at both, the opponent will just spend their CP a bit more wisely and thats it. Most stratagems that are spammed and strong are not even used every game other than 3, Lightning fast, Prismatic Blur (Quins +1 invul), and Single-Minded Annihilation (nids shoot twice). Most others are 2-3x per game. Nids always here CP fine, all 3 Eldar can use Lightning and Quins can use Blur so really its only good against Aeldari and that makes it feel even worst.

I wish I played in your meta. Transhuman, weapons of the dark ages, veterans of the long war... I could go on. There are some strats that I know I will bear used 3 to 4 times a game. Yeah this new strat isn't going to do much, but if it costs my opponent 3cp then I am happy. Sometimes making them waste cp is part of the game.

Azuza001 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I think old Vect was pretty unfair, and really frustrating when rolled a 1. Almost never used it, I will use this one every game I play Black Heart.

Of course is not that strong.

In double DT wrack venom spam list with 1 patrol for 2 Ravagers and Vect. You basically only use CP on Vect and maybe lightning fast on a Ravager, sometimes to re-roll a dice too. You had lots of CP to use and could use Vect 2-3x a game.

There are some stratagems in the game that are literally insane compare to vect, so stopping those stratagems (and your opponents knows you will) changes the entire game flow and feeling, it was not only mental war game but also a good tactical one.

This new stratagem is worthless at both, the opponent will just spend their CP a bit more wisely and thats it. Most stratagems that are spammed and strong are not even used every game other than 3, Lightning fast, Prismatic Blur (Quins +1 invul), and Single-Minded Annihilation (nids shoot twice). Most others are 2-3x per game. Nids always here CP fine, all 3 Eldar can use Lightning and Quins can use Blur so really its only good against Aeldari and that makes it feel even worst.

I wish I played in your meta. Transhuman, weapons of the dark ages, veterans of the long war... I could go on. There are some strats that I know I will bear used 3 to 4 times a game. Yeah this new strat isn't going to do much, but if it costs my opponent 3cp then I am happy. Sometimes making them waste cp is part of the game.

I play against Marines literally every week many times new DA and i see Transhuman all the time, against DA its not a stratagem on many units even. You just know you wound on 4+ and don't care, its the stratagems like Release the Lions from Custodes, or Double shoot and Fight from many armies that are 1 time use but extremely strong that are the real problems.

Quins I would use it on Prismatic Blur and then ok he just wouldn't use it much any more and leave 1 unit of skyweavers back and then he would go off and use the other 3-4 insane stratagems that he can move after fighting, +1D, re-roll wounds, etc.. and not care. But if i could Vect this melee deathball from moving 16+" after fighting me so he can be in FnP and -6" to shooting range that would have been much better.

Go against Salamanders, OMG they have some insane Stratagems, theyw ill forgo using Transhuman a couple times to make sure to use some other stratagems.

Or sisters, What will i use it on ow? I guess rets +12" stratagem? I would have Vected their fight twice, now I can not, so i can't leave units anywhere near each other vs sisters anymore otherwise 9 Repentia will kill 2 units now.

If it is a build around stratagem like tyranids have (shoot twice) sealing 5 CP from them hurts a lott.

Transhuman can even be used more then 5 times.

Just downright nuke CP for 0 sounds good to me.

 Niiai wrote:
If it is a build around stratagem like tyranids have (shoot twice) sealing 5 CP from them hurts a lott.

Transhuman can even be used more then 5 times.

Just downright nuke CP for 0 sounds good to me.

But it's weaker even than that, as it does nothing to the first use of the enemy Stratagem.

Confirm Raiders and Venoms +1 transport

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Confirm Raiders and Venoms +1 transport

Yup, I'm super pleased about that

3 Grotesques in a Venom now?

 harlokin wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Confirm Raiders and Venoms +1 transport

Yup, I'm super pleased about that

3 Grotesques in a Venom now?

Sadly no, it says it can not carry Grots, they still can only go into the raider (and tantalus).

Haywire Blasters, Dissies, and Heat Lances all went from Assault to Heavy.

Heat Lances are S8 and d6+2 damage now, but are a mere AP-4.

Haywire Blasters inexplicably went down to S3, gained AP-3 and damage 1d3, and now only score d3 mortals on natural 6's to wound.

Splinter Racks let us double-tap with splinter rifles out to max range.

Chain Snares add 3 melee attacks to the vehicle they're on.

Lelith lost her 3++ but gained a -1 to be hit. Drazhar lost his lethal precision entirely, but all damage aimed his way is -1.

Ichor Injectors just automatically cause D3 Mortal Wounds on a hit now

Talos Gauntlets are flat 3 damage

Twin Liquifier Guns are S4, AP-2, and 12''.

Succubi gained two attacks.

Haemonculi lost an attack, and all customization options, but can heal D3 wounds per turn

Note: haemie ichor injector does 1mw on hit, talos does d3. Talos one is free, seems lije no reason to not bring 1 scalpel+1 injector instead of 2 scalpels


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haemie now makes 2 bonus attacks with his scissors rather than 1.

 harlokin wrote:
Heat Lances are S8 and d6+2 damage now, but are a mere AP-4.

Now that's a massive improvement. I've never used heat lances before, as they were in kind of a weird spot where they had the Damage to be anti-vehicle weapons but not the Strength. Now they wound everything on, at worst, a 4+. And you rarely ever need AP -5 anyway.

Splinter Racks let us double-tap with splinter rifles out to max range.

Chain Snares add 3 melee attacks to the vehicle they're on.

Niiiice. Might start actually taking them, depending on the cost.

Succubi gained two attacks.

That's good. Never made much sense that they had less attacks than an Archon. The big question however is whether they get a weapon with more than 1 Damage. Currently they're piss-poor in character vs. character combat, and hardly live up to their fluff as gladiators.

.

They can still take wych weapons, and I think the shardnet and impaler is gonna be the pick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although there was a buff to gauntlets right?

Urien resurrects on a 2+ after death with d3 wounds remaining. Gives +1 S, T and L to Prophets of Flesh...

He also gained +1W and +1Attack, and the hability to heal units.

It seems that the master succubus and master haemonculus abilities are Lelith and Urien's new powers (the resurrection and the consolidating 6" in any direction)

Master succubus has something that seems similar to the blood glaive as its relic, and a warlord trait that lets you make her Attacks stat equal to all enemy models within 2" - fairly meh all-round if you ask me, but the basic succubus with a shardnet and impaler is looking hot with the +2 attacks.

Master Haemie gets a slightly more interesting relic and trait.

i can see myself taking master archon for the fight twice, and master haemie for the relic and trait, I anticipate there'll be SOMETHING else relic-wise for succus that make taking master succubus unnecessary.

the_scotsman wrote:
It seems that the master succubus and master haemonculus abilities are Lelith and Urien's new powers (the resurrection and the consolidating 6" in any direction)

Master succubus has something that seems similar to the blood glaive as its relic, and a warlord trait that lets you make her Attacks stat equal to all enemy models within 2" - fairly meh all-round if you ask me, but the basic succubus with a shardnet and impaler is looking hot with the +2 attacks.

Master Haemie gets a slightly more interesting relic and trait.

i can see myself taking master archon for the fight twice, and master haemie for the relic and trait, I anticipate there'll be SOMETHING else relic-wise for succus that make taking master succubus unnecessary.

I'm not so sure, at first I kind of brushed it off too but the stuccubus has always had a few problems that had been exacerbated as of late. One was pinning large horde units and not getting beat up, which tied into the second which was them removing models within engagement range to prevent the lock up. You wanted to charge the far ends of the unit to avoid the pig pile which meant they could remove models in a way to hose you. Now, you can dive straight into the middle and kick the crap out of them AND tie them up OR hit the flank to avoid getting hurt and with the 6" pile in still tag them, or even more cleverly tag a second unit since you can pile in any direction.

I think the master Succubus is pretty fantastic actually, she quit crossfit now that she can ride with the other girls leaving her enough time to focus on martial arts training

Talos, Cronos, Incubi and Scourges are CORE. It could be good when the strats hit.

 Denegaar wrote:
Talos, Cronos, Incubi and Scourges are CORE. It could be good when the strats hit.

I'm not too excited about that, basically the entire faction was core last week lol.

It is nice to see those things remaining so though. My guess is that beasts and vehicles will be the only things not core.

So I am thinking of army builds given this limited information and so far a black heart raider heavy army is screaming at me.

Draz
Archon with writ

5 man warriors blaster
5 man incubi
Raider with dark lance and trophies (and snares if you can do both if not a mix)

Repeat the above (not characters obviously) 3 times then switch incubi for mandrakes

Being blackheart all the raiders can advance and charge turn 1, this is pretty big as you can hit their lines first turn with a wave of raiders. Any raiders that don't advance will shoot the DL which is now rerollable to hit, very consistant. Each warrior unit will also reroll hitting with it's blasters which is mental.

Turn 2 the incubi and draz roll in and the trophies nuke the enemy leadership meaning the tormentor helms have high potential for forcing them to all fight last.
Obviously it needs to be fleshed out but the bones are there. really promising start as this is a totally different style kabal list then the current gun line for black heart.

Coven is also looking baller now with much improved liquifiers, finally they are strength 4 again and with set -2 and 12 inch range to boot. A raider can get two 5 mans for 4 total lol. That is going to melt things on the driveby, even after advancing.

I'd be willing to bet Lelith gets the Master Succubus warlord trait or a variation thereof.

She has 6 attacks base but if she gains the MS warlord trait and can replace her attacks with # of models within 2" of her that should add attacks. She's got a 4++ inv save (down from 3++ but that was expected) and -1 to hit, she rerolls hits and wounds. She also has Artist of Blades special rule so on 6's her knives are a further ap-1 although I'm guessing she'll have the 6's to wound is -3ap.

She's what? 90pts now. If she stays 90 I don't think she's all that bad. She might go up, she might have gone down. We won't know till more is leaked or till next Saturday (unless she gets used in a game by one of the big name streamer channels on YT such as TT, TT, Winters SEO, MWG, etc.)

I'm actually excited for them. Last time I played DE was 5th edition and I had a blast. The Piety and Pain and the incredibly valued Combat Patrol box means I'm starting a Drukhari army.

The new succubi relic is allegedly str+2 and d2 with 6+ to wounds ignoring invulns, so I don't see a world where lelith is worth taking over a standard succubi.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
She certainly isn’t great, but she’s there to take out 1 wound infantry, not space marines. And she’s at least decent at that.

I’m interested to see what her model looks like without that terrible paint job

in a meta dominated by marines sound pretty odd

A lot of good changes here which is exciting, mostly that they've increased transport capacity which is the most important change IMO.

Some poor changes here, I don't like being forced to take all different weapons on Wyches.

Huskblades are bad now strength 3, -2 AP and 2 DMG. Archons again seem pretty toothless. Kinda forces you to take the Relic Huskblade. I feel like Venom Blades might be a better choice (if they are a choice at all).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
A lot of good changes here which is exciting, mostly that they've increased transport capacity which is the most important change IMO.

Some poor changes here, I don't like being forced to take all different weapons on Wyches.

Huskblades are bad now strength 3, -2 AP and 2 DMG. Archons again seem pretty toothless. Kinda forces you to take the Relic Huskblade. I feel like Venom Blades might be a better choice (if they are a choice at all).

Yeah, I honestly don't see why Huskblades were nerfed. They were not remotely overpowered in any conceivable way.

And the fact that they still cost points is just adding insult to injury.

Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

They probably saw that almost every list was using at least one and assumed that they had to be overpowered... completely forgetting that they'd given Kabal no other bloody HQs.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

It's because they were aiming to make all the archon options similar in value, you can tell by the point costs.

That said, it's not all that bad, several WLT increase the archons strength for example or as a master you can increase his damage allowing for damage 2 power swords for example, which is essentially what you would have expected the husk blade to be anyway only with better ap.

Poisoned tongue Master Archon for example with an agonizer is poison 3+ to wound at -3 and 2 damage. Pretty amazing considering your not even using a relic slot.

The other obsessions have similar fixes, flayed skull WLT is +1 strength and attack, so you can a husk blade at s4 -2 2 damage
again without even sinking your relic.

You can then go for a second archon with the djin blade and you can even still get another WLT like ancient evil to force combatants to fight last.

There are a ton of ways guys, if your just expecting to pay for an archon with a husk blade and no WLT or relic and expect them to solo anything at 70 points your nuts. My GSC primus is that cost and hes way worse then an archon stock like I listed lol.

But ultimately the succubus are the real combat monsters finally which makes the most sense honestly.

With a generic WLT you can add +2 to a succubus attacks and they have 6 stock now, use the triptich whip and the +1 attack drug and you have 12 attacks at poison 2+ -3 flat 2 damage which is bananas. There is even a strat to allow poison to work on none titanic vehicles for a turn, meaning she will walk through tanks now as well.

I also like the cursed blade suicide stuccubus. Give her the specific relic and WLT and every save she makes on a 4+ bounces a mortal and if she dies she blows up for d3+3 mortals on a 2+ lol which is nuts to me for her cost. She will kill any almost any elite character in a duel that isn't a primarch, she even has solid odds verse abadon or calgar.

It's pretty wild how awesome the characters are now.

Heck a master Haemi with the specific relic can inflict d3 mortals to a chief apothecary and turn off his aura for a full round which is peak trolling.

There are ways around it.

My point is that I think that we shouldn't have to have ways to make them base line. They should be lethal on their own, and go to extreme lethality when given WLT and Relics.

Beatstick Archons are now likely Flayed Skull with a Djinn Blade, or Poison Tongue with a Venom Blade

Court of the Archon is single unit of 0-4 of each members of the Court.
- Lhamean gained Blade Artists and Toxin Crafter (Archon and Truebron Poison attack of 6s in 3' of this unit automatically wound).
- Ur-Ghouls have 5+ FNP
- Sslyth have 5+ FNP , Cold-Blooded Bodyguard has changed - while any Sslyth in the unit is alive, enemies cannot target your Archon, if he is in 3' from the unit.
- Medusae shots are now D6 Pistol.


The Toxin Crafters custom Kabal seems pretty cool:

-When a Kabal attacks with a poisoned weapon (both shooting or melee), a natural 6s to hit chage the shot into "poisoned(2+)
-When a Kabal attacks with a poisoned weapon (both shooting or melee), you can reroll the wound rolls.

Costs two Obsessions though.

Cult of Strife extra stuff from Book of Rust:

Warlord traits:

gain one additional attack for every attack that didnt get to the inflicted damage stage

reroll wound rolls

-1 to hit and wound rolls

Relics:

relic agoniser: ap-3, d1, poisoned (4+), select one enemy unit within engagement range, that unit can’t fall back (no vehicles/monsters)

garland of spite: select one enemy model, halve the attacks characteristic of that model until end of fight phase. Additionally autohits that model.

relic glaive: s+2, ap-5, d2 - gain +1 to wound against units with a leadership of 8 or more. Suffer 1 mortal wound if you didnt target any models with leadership 8+

dark lotus toxin: +1 to S and D characteristics of all weapons of this model

Stratagems:

2/3cp reroll wounds for cult of strife unit (3cp if 11+ models)

dance of death 1cp - use in movement/charge phase. models can move horizontally through terrain or other models for movement, advance, fall back and charging until end of turn

invigorated by evisceration 1cp - use this when a cult of strife unit destroys an enemy unit. That unit gains a 4+ invuln until start of your next turn.

Blade well placed 2cp - additional -1AP until end of fight phase

Deadly Exemplar 1cp - when succubus unit destroys character/monster unit, brides of death ability becomes board wide reroll 1’s to hit

Flawless approach 1cp - enemy units cannot fire overwatch or set to defend against this unit

Pick them apart 2cp - fall back shoot and charge.

hekatrix of the crucible 1cp - basically give a hekatrix one of several relics!

Great stuff, thanks mate.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
There are ways around it.

My point is that I think that we shouldn't have to have ways to make them base line. They should be lethal on their own, and go to extreme lethality when given WLT and Relics.

Absolutely this.

The fact that Archons - with any loadout - can barely kill a single Tactical Marine is just pathetic.

But that's okay because if you upgrade them to a Master Archon then once per battle they can kill two Tactical Marines!

Oh but at least they make up for it with their amazing support abilities like... er... an aura that can affect all of 7 models in the entire codex and doesn't work inside, into, or out of transports.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

It's because they were aiming to make all the archon options similar in value, you can tell by the point costs.

In other words, because the codex was designed by a haddock. As usual.

why dont we make an Infinity Gauntlet relic for the archon and for 1cp the opponent loses 50% of his force (but can only use this once per phase). Would that make Archons competitive ?

 Elfric wrote:
why dont we make an Infinity Gauntlet relic for the archon and for 1cp the opponent loses 50% of his force (but can only use this once per phase). Would that make Archons competitive ?

I see you've already used your 0CP Strawman relic.

Have fun with that.

Early days, but I don't think I'm taking more than one Archon, and he'll probably be rocking a Djinn Blade (as he did in 8th for me).

The upgraded Succubi look really good.

My beloved Archon bodyguard snakes went from T5 to T3...

Sotahullu wrote:
My beloved Archon bodyguard snakes went from T5 to T3...

That's a shame, I love my Sslyth....

The Lhamaean looks a great pick now though - Toxin Crafter (Archon and Truebron Poison attack of 6s in 3' of this unit automatically wound)

 harlokin wrote:

Sotahullu wrote:
My beloved Archon bodyguard snakes went from T5 to T3...

That's a shame, I love my Sslyth....

The Lhamaean looks a great pick now though - Toxin Crafter (Archon and Truebron Poison attack of 6s in 3' of this unit automatically wound)

It would be cool if auras weren't still completely broken in transports.

Cult of Strife having a bunch more strats and such is good because theyre still looking like the weakest of the three...ill probably still run mostly cursed blade.

Super succubus became way better in my eyes when I realized you can attack, and then immediately bounce back away fron your target sp you cany attack

the_scotsman wrote:
Super succubus became way better in my eyes when I realized you can attack, and then immediately bounce back away fron your target sp you cany attack

Is there even a point to the non-Master HQs?

Is there even a point to the non-Master HQs?

Yes, to fill up the countless number of Patrol attachments you will need to field a proper army.

New Succubus builds look promising. I'm looking now to swap out my Archon with one and take a unit of wyches. Suicide Succubus looks deadly AF lol.

Again, the problem with a lot of the unique auras and special rules is that they ONLY work within aura range. I don't feel like units should be functionally useless on their own and require another unit, or special relic/warlord trait to become borderline useful in their own right. Space Marines aren't designed that way, why are we?

Looks like Mortal Wound spam might be a thing with the number of Phantasm Grenade Launchers in the army. My current army can do a maximum of 28 mortal wounds per turn with all of the Phantasm Grenade launchers on each Raider/Ravager/Kabalite and Archon.

You can do first turn Raider Charges too by the looks of it. We have a disembarkation strat that allows us to disembark outside 9" of an enemy unit. After turn 3 you can advance and then charge too. Great for Incubi.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, the problem with a lot of the unique auras and special rules is that they ONLY work within aura range. I don't feel like units should be functionally useless on their own and require another unit, or special relic/warlord trait to become borderline useful in their own right. Space Marines aren't designed that way, why are we?

I mean, this is my entire issue with our HQs and the Archon especially.

Vanguard Tactics had a really good batrep. I don't normally watch their channel but the Drukhari put on a pretty good show by beating the Ultramarines 71-60.

I don't know enough about Ultra's to know how good the list was but it did include the always taken, always spammed aggressors, Bobby G himself, some eradicators, tigerius, apothecary, etc.

The drukhari list, at least according to the sooths on dakka who can see the future, was suboptimal and yet it still did well. Guess theorycrafting only goes so far. <eyeroll>.

Does anyone know if Obsidian Rose changed in any way? They're my guys...

-Guardsman- wrote:
Does anyone know if Obsidian Rose changed in any way? They're my guys...

Basic trait is the same, except that each unit also gets to reroll a single wound roll each time it shoots or attacks.

Warlord trait improves the strength characteristic of non-relic weapons by 1.

Artefact and Stratagem look unchanged.

Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

jotace wrote:
Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

Wych Cult looks great, Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches themselves all very good, as are the Succubi.

 harlokin wrote:

jotace wrote:
Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

Wych Cult looks great, Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches themselves all very good, as are the Succubi.

Why are they good now?

 Niiai wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

jotace wrote:
Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

Wych Cult looks great, Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches themselves all very good, as are the Succubi.

Why are they good now?

Eviscerating Flyby is MUCH better now, Hellions got a stat bump, and Wyches got some very nice Obsessions and Strats, and Combat DRugs are a lot better.

 Niiai wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

jotace wrote:
Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

Wych Cult looks great, Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches themselves all very good, as are the Succubi.

Why are they good now?

I'd highly suggest looking at the goonhammer review, since it gives a much more in depth run down on each unit.

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-drukhari-9th-edition-the-goonhammer-review/

TL;DR, you get to choose combat drugs without having to pick one of each before doubling down like you used to have to, meaning the crucial +1S drug is now available for everyone. Furthermore, everyone got +1A, blade artist giving additional AP on 6's to wound (AP-3 for bloodbrides), I'm pretty sure all Wych Cult units at least have AP-1 base for all their weapons and Hellions in particular got REALLY beefy. +1W, +1A, +1T, and their weapon is D2 base. Being able to both fall back and charge, and they have the infantry keyword so they can breach through buildings? Pretty tasty.

Even in terms of shooting, the Reavers got a nice boost with the weapons stats changes to Heat Lances being stronger and harder hitting, and thanks to being bikes don't care that they became heavy. It might be worth giving them the +1BS combat drug to make sure you hit your 2 heat lances, especially if you're in a Realspace Raider detachment where you get the reroll aura from the Archon.

 harlokin wrote:

jotace wrote:
Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

Wych Cult looks great, Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches themselves all very good, as are the Succubi.

Reavers are actually worse than Hellions, tried them today and unless you want to keep them within 12" for the Stratagem to happen, Hellions are way superior

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

jotace wrote:
Hi! As a new player considering to start a Wych Cult army, is it remotely viable now?

Wych Cult looks great, Reavers, Hellions, and Wyches themselves all very good, as are the Succubi.

Reavers are actually worse than Hellions, tried them today and unless you want to keep them within 12" for the Stratagem to happen, Hellions are way superior

Might Reavers not be good at offering ranged fire support?

4 BS2+ Heat Lances don't seem like anything to sneeze at.

Perhaps not as good, but they’re also 10 points per model which is insanely good.

Here's my codex analysis so far (i'll go thru the rest of the units tomorrow)

Drukhari Codex Notes:

-Detachment Styles

Drukhari have 3 general ways to construct an army (assuming you want all-drukhari). You can go for the traditional route of simply a battlion or brigade, particularly if you want only one detachment. Second, you can go for all-patrols, a good setup for if you want a setup other than the Realspace raid required 6 units. In competitive, unless someone is looking to take advantage of the bonuses to realspace raids, all patrols will be the preferred army setup - particularly now that spamming minimum-sized units is greatly lessened in power (more on that later). All patrols let you skip out on one required HQ in favor of Drazar, and do not require the fixed setup of 1 kabal, 1 coven, 1 cult, instead allowing for a more focused list.

Subfaction Choice:

As usual for non-marine armies, taking custom subfactions revokes your ability to take the unique relic and warlord trait associated with a core subfaction. however, thanks to some powerful generic traits and relics (particularly those now available to the upgraded Master versions of HQs) and some improved custom traits, custom traits are now worth much more of a look particularly in the Kabals.

Kabals: With the extreme power of Agents of Vect curbed, Black heart is no longer nearly as mandatory as it once was. Bear in mind that the rules for Kabals now specify that an entire DETACHMENT must be relegated to Black Heart in order to gain access to the stratagem - including just one unit is no longer enough. However, the BH trait has been improved significantly.

My general Kabal tier list would be:

-Worst Tier: Mobile Raiders, Webway Raiders, Disdain for Lesser Beings, Soul Bound

In my opinion, these custom traits do not add up to anything that is better than any core kabal trait. At the end of the day, the custom Kabals have the means to provide a detachment with additional deadliness in several different avenues - but none of the other capabilities are particularly exciting.

-D tier: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

The removal of the reroll 1 to hit makes FS quite a bit weaker than it used to be. The FS warlord trait is one of several traits that is just worse than Eternal Hatred, and the Relic is nothing particularly special. Masters of the Shadowed Sky is solid, but there are many many ways to improve hit rolls to a 2+ - power from pain, Trueborn, etc.

-C Tier: Poisoned Tongue

This kabal is only this low because in my opinion you can get better offense out of various combinations of custom kabal traits, and there's nothing in the trait/relic/strat that's absolutely vital. Remember that Combat Attrition is only ever useful against non-Marine/Tyranid armies. Statistically, Toxin Crafters offers a slightly better boost for a poison-spam detachment.

-B Tier: Dark Mirth, Toxin Crafters, Twisted Hunters, Torturous Efficiency, Merciless Razorkin, Deadly Deceivers

These combinations of custom kabal offer either straightforward offense or some interesting new options. Personally, I feel if you're running a shooting-focussed army it makes sense to split your army based on what types of weapons you're armed with. Dark Lances work best in Black Heart, Splinter spam wants to be toxin Crafters or maybe Poisoned Tongue. A detachment based around flyers may find Dark Mirth/Twisted Hunters particularly interesting, as Voidravens and Razorwings will be able to snipe out characters and drop Dark Mirth on the entire opposing army with next to no risk.

-A Tier: Obsidian Rose, Kabal of the Black Heart

Obrose: Oh how the meek have inherited the earth! The key to this trait's power lies with the new rule for Splinter Racks: rapid fire out to full range, and oh by the way full range is now 30" - oh, and splinter cannons fire at full effectiveness out to 42"...damn that's good! Obrose provides a ridiculously safe bread and butter unit of 10 kabalites in a dark lance splinter rack raider - probably with either a pair of blasters and a splitner cannon or a single dark lance and just all splinter rifles - one big weapon to take advantage of that single reroll to wound they get. Given how aggressive so many drukhari units are, these super-safe kabalite units to hold the backfield are excellent support to make sure you keep holding your home objectives and scoring engage on all fronts.

Kabal of the Black Heart: If you're taking a realspace raid detachment, it is REAAAALLY tough to argue with black heart as your kabal. You get a trait, an aura on your archon, and a relic that all work on Blades for Hire units as well as kabalites - nice to have an Archon that's actually worthwhile for buffing things. Writ is as good as ever (still works on Ravagers, too!), the trait is improved, labyrinthine cunning is still decent, lots to like here.

Wych Cults:

-Not Great Tier: Art of Pain (really all this does is allow you to get the turn 3 benefit on turn 2, since a 5++ early in combat is redundant with Dodge, and there's no point in advance and charge if you're already in combat), Acrobatic Display, Test of Skill (rip), precise killers

-Honestly seem pretty balanced tier: Um...everything else.

Let's look at customs first. Agile Hunters is the only one that significantly boosts shooting units, if you want to use a lot of reavers with guns and flyers. Berserk Fugue would be decent into a high mortal wound meta, Trophy Takers works in tandem with a 'freakshow' army setup alongside dark creed and poisoned tongue, and Stimulant Innovators+Slashing makes for a solid turn 2 tempo damage trait combo. Hyperstimm Backlash can get pretty goofy with Stimulant Innovators in particular.

The three core cults are no longer quite as distinct structurally in what they want to do and how they want to put their lists together, what with Red Grief no longer allowing you to use Reavers as a turn 1 tempo unit and Cursed Blade no longer making max unit blocks so much more viable than the other two.

Red Grief: Re-roll charge and +2 to advance makes for an obvious turn 2 tempo setup with the new turn 2 power from pain table result. You can set your units up midboard in fairly safe positions and make very easy charges with them turn 2. Obviously, blood glaive is blood glaive, we know it we love it. Precision Blows makes the blood glaive pretty nasty even against high-invuln characters. I don't think master succubus is necessary with a glaive+precision succubus - most characters are just going to get exploded by that combo, the ability to skip out after fighting isn't quite as important. Acrobatic Display remains a great strat as well.

Cult of Strife: the weakest of the bunch when just looking at the codex, the new suppplement makes this one a real option - particularly if you're running a very wych-heavy army. No Method of Death is still great, combos with Hyperstimm and any other offense boosting strat like Blade Well Placed. If you have CP to burn, strife wyches can become absolute monsters. Phial bouquet is still bad, Blood Dancer on Lelith is still obvious. Basically, if you're willing to pour your resources into them and give them center stage, Cult of Strife seems to perform well.

Cursed Blade: I'd consider this the "best returns for low investments" cult. A shardnet+impaler succubus in CB with Treacherous Deceiver and the Traitor's Embrace can absolutely destroy characters worth many more points, and a small unit of, say, 5 hellions dive bombing into a unit with a ton of attacks and a single weapon type - say, Ork Boyz with choppas, assault intercessors, etc - can deal more damage with the Strong will Thrive than they do with their normal attacks.

Covens:

Worst Tier: Ehanced Sensory Organs, Splinterblades, Dark Harvest, Master Torturers.

B Tier: Prophets of Flesh, Dark Creed, Artists of Flesh, Hungry for Flesh, Masters of Mutagens, Dark Technomancers, Experimental Creations

Just like with wych cults, the selection this time around feels fairly balanced, rather than the old "one obviously way better than the others." I feel like coven of twelve is slightly on top, just due to being a solid all-rounder that you can never really go wrong with, but all the other options here besides the bad custom traits seem like there's some army setup or reason to take them.

Dark Creed: I do really think a spooky army setup is a viable choice, with Poisoned Tongue, Dark Creed and Trophy Takers wyches togheter in an army. The biggest thing in the way is space marines with their dang Knowing No Fear. Phantasm Grenade Launchers, Grisly Trophies, the Dark Creed trait, and the bonuses to Combat Attrition (easily stacking up to -3 with Poisoned Tongue, Dark Creed and Pray they Dont Take You Alive) make a freakshow army truly viable into any meta without tons of marines. There's even a fun secondary for it!

Prophets of Flesh: Basically the one you take if you want Urien. Urien's fine still, great for boosting up a big ol' unit of grotesques, which also make great use of the PoF stratagem and arguably the best use of their trait, which is much much MUCH MUCH weaker than it used to be.

Dark Technomancers: Say, do you like double liquifier wrack squads in venoms? Because that's what dark technomancers is good for now. Well, I guess theoretically cronos pain engines and double liquifier talos as well. Point is: weapons that make hit rolls are now much more risky with dark tech, but hey! Weapons that hit automatically don't care at all! woohoo!

Artists of Flesh: If you just want your covens to act as a brick to break your enemies against, this one is just superior to Prophets of Flesh. with the new free healing from haemonculi, the Haemoxites Upgrade in addition to Twisted Animator (HAEMOXYTE keyword doesn't replace WRACK keyword!), Alchemical Maestro....yeah, coven units with this trait can be going nowhere fast.

Obsessive Collectors+either Experimental Creations or Masters of Mutagens: A fun meme trait for 20-man wrack squads with the new squad cap. Gray Spiky Tide, anyone? Just make sure you also have the upgraded master haemonculus to regenerate even more dead wracks. Bonus points if you eat necrons to resurrect wracks to establish dominance!

A tier: Coven of 12

This is the one I look at and think "You basically can't go wrong picking this one." it doens't do any one thing the best, but it has a solid offense buff, a solid boost for simple little objective holding Ossefactor+Hexrifle Wrack squads, and good boosts to turn your haemie into a legitimate character killing threat. Nothing really dislikes being Coven of 12 in the covens list.

Unit Analysis (primarily focusing on changes from 8th to 9th)

All units: Gained Blade Artists, new Power from Pain replaces old PFP

All coven units: Insensible now 5+FNP instead of 5++

All Wych Cult units: Drugs now freely stackable or roll for 2, +LD drug now also adds +1BS, +1A drug now only works on the charge.

Archon

Changes: Sv 5+ to 4+, Overlord now affects INCUBI but only affects <kabal> CORE, Huskblade now only S: User, damage 2 instead of damage D3. Venom Blade now -1AP, power sword now +1S.

Analysis: The Archon definitely needs investment to be any kind of worthwhile. Black Heart can run a decent buffer archon in a Realspace raid, allowing him to buff units like Mandrakes and Scourges with his aura and giving him the Writ to make his aura more worthwhile, but I feel like any other Kabal that doesn't duck the Archon in favor of Drazar needs to give him a few bonuses to make him not suck. The Eternal Hatred warlord trait, Djinn Blade and Master Archon upgrade turn him into a real threat. stick him, Drazar (hey, he makes him reroll 1s to hit!) and a min size Court into a venom for a scary anti-elite unit. Or just run him with 5 incubi if you don't want to invest that many points.

Succubus

Changes: +2A, Brides of Death now only affects CORE (doesn't matter at all, since Reavers and Hellions are CORE), Archite Glaive now not -1 to hit. Shardnet and Impaler now -1 to No Escape instead of D3 and now AP-2, Razorflails now Ax2 instead of A+D3 and no longer reroll hits, Hydra Gaunts now S+2 and AP-2, no longer reroll wounds.

Analysis: Wych Weapons are still 100% what you want to go for if you don't want to relic her up, with Razorflails the succubus throws a hilarious 18 attacks with Hypex and Quicksilver fighter, and the Shardnet+Impaler offers a respectable AP-2 D2 melee weapon with plenty of attacks to threaten a character. If you've got the model with the glaive, do yourself a favor and just pay the 15 points for a master succubus with the relic, it's quite a good weapon.

Haemonculus: -1A, +1W, Master of Pain no longer affects vehicles, Lost weapon options. Haemie tools now poison 2+, ichor injector now no longer feths around and just does 1MW on a hit, scissorhand now gives 2 bonus attacks. Fleshcraft now a datasheet ability instead of a strat.

Analysis: the loss of the electrocorrosive whip makes the default haemie more of a support unit than a killer. Using certain relics, traits, combos etc you can make him a threat, but by default he's much less potent. Luckily, his support powers (particularly with being able to also resurrect wracks as a master haemie) have been improved. Other than coven-specific traits and relics, there's not really much worth giving this guy - I'd guess that most often you'd just go for the +1 to wound trait and no relic, and then have him attack with his scissorhands exclusively rather than using the tools. Or just Master Regenist for more heals. If you're going to use the stratagem to give everyone a warlord trait, it's probably worthwhile to upgrade the Haemie to master so that you can use him to resurrect Haemoxytes.

Lelith Hesperax: +3A, Blades now +1S, -3AP, and score extra hits on 6 to hit. Brides of Death no longer works on transports. Quicksilver Dodge now 4++ -1 to hit. Gained Deadly Dance (6" consolidate in any direction). Natural Perfection now either charge after advance/fall back or fight twice if you kill any models.

Analysis: Despite fears that she would not be able to kill characters, Brides of Death makes lelith plenty murderous (4 hits on a 6 to hit XD). She deals 4 unsaved wounds on average vs a T4 4++ target with her warlord trait on, and kills her points back in most infantry units she manages to get into. Basically Lelith is worth bringing in any kind of cult of strife detachment, even without a D2 weapon.

Drazar: (comparing him to codex drazar for the lulz) +1W, +1A, +1 to invuln save, +2 damage and +1S to single blade, +1S +1D on dual klaive, Master of Blades now adds +1 to wound (still affects himself!), Tormenters now causes enemy unit to fight last if you roll 2d6>ld, now has -1 to damage, now fights twice (immediately, not end of phase).

Analysis: Holy. F'ing. gak does this guy shred. Space marine captain profile? dual klaive profile does TEN unsaved wounds. Gravis profile? 6.5 dead. A fething tank? 10.5 wounds on average. Drazar is basically instant death to anything that doesn't have crazy special rule shenanigans and he only costs 130 points. If you're going for Patrol army building setup, basically whichever HQ type is the most of a tax for you, you should swap out for Drazar. Also, he's quite considerate: He doesn't need warlord traits or relics to do his thang!

Urien Rakarth: +1W, +1A, Casket now autohits, Haemie tools now Poison 2+, Ichor injector now 1MW on hit, gained Sustained by Dark Science, gained Fleshcraft, auras now only affect core (no more +1S raiders :( )

Analysis: Was kind of a bland buffbot, now at least a decent combatant and even more obnoxious to kill. If you're in PoF and you were gonna take a master haemonculus, you might as well take Urien, and you might as well give him a big ol' unit of double cleaver Talos and/or Grotesques to boost the strength of. The new Diabolical Soothsayer makes him just hilariously durable - T6, W7, half damage, 4++ 5+FNP, resurrects when he dies.

Kabalite Warriors: A+1, SV5+ to 4+. can now take 2 specials and 1 heavy at 10 models. Sybarite can now have splinter rifle and melee weapon. Phantasm grenade now rolls 2d6 vs ld to deal 1mw for each hit, shredder now 18" range but no longer rerolls wounds, darklance now D3+3, splinter cannon now bad heavy bolter. can now be upgraded to 2+bs trueborn for +2PPM.

10 Kabalites in a Raider are now improved by the addition of the extra special, and with several kabals synergizing with the new splinter racks that setup will most likely be more common than it used to be. That unit is particularly devious as Trueborn, who can do stuff like shoot flyers on a 2+ ignoring modifiers, and can move and shoot with the dark lance in the squad. Sadly, the splinter cannon is looking much worse than it used to be - dedicated anti-infantry kabal squads are likely to stick to 5 man in a venom with a shredder.

Wyches: +1A, -1AP on hekatarii blade. Various wych weapon changes detailed in Succubus section, Dodge is the same (LOL thanks Power from Pain you're super helpful...) and wyches can now only take 1 of each special wych weapon for each 10 models in the unit...no wych weapons for min squads. Can now be upgraded to Bloodbrides for +2PPM with improved Blade Artists.

Analysis: Min wych squads are way less useful than they used to be, adding to what I would say is going to be a common trend of 10-squads of wyches and kabs in raiders becoming much more common than they used to be. Luckily, basic knife wyches with -1AP blades and Blade Artists. Bloodbrides are definitely the least useful of the upgraded squad types. With no more reroll charges turn 2 ad no more morale immunity, deep striking 20 wyches is also a lot less viable. In general, I feel like wyches are better than they used to be, but more one-note: the number of times I would choose to bring anything besides 10-strong squad, blast pistol+1 of each special and +1A drugs is very small.

Wracks: Wrack blades now -1AP, Ossefactor now 2D, no longer does the bonesplosion thing, Hexrifle now S6 AP-2 D2, electrocorrosive now D1 but 2x attacks, Mindphase now D2, liquifier now 12"r S4 AP-2 d1. Normal unit cap now 20. can now be upgraded to extra tough haemoxytes.

Analysis: Double liquifier 5-man wrack squads are now better, Hexrifle+Ossefactor squads now perform for everyone like they used to perform for Dark Techno, and they gained several ways to be resurrected. Also, 8ppm down from 12 is a really welcome boost, and it turns out durability is only slightly lost (6++ 5+FNP vs 5++ 6+FNP). Basically, you liked wracks before? Like em more now! Electrocorrosive seems to still be the best weapon option, incidentally. It's a tradition now!

Court of the Archon: now a unit again rather than 4 different units. Sslyth now T3 down from T5, Sslyth blade now AP-2 from AP-1, if the unit contains Sslyth Archons within 3" cant be targeted. urghul talons now AP-1, now 5+FNP instead of 5++ (with PFP as well). Lhamean now gives an aura of 6 to hit with poison weapons automatically wound to archons and Trueborn. Medusa eyeburst now 12" range, pistol, and hits automatically. now also Core! Also, you can take a hilarious number of these suckers. Do you want 16 W3 snakeboiz? Maybe 10 in a raider with an archon so your opponent gets sick of these god damn snakes in this god damn plane?

Analysis: At 18ppm, Sslyths do seem to have a reason to be compared to Incubi, but the urghul definitely seems to be pretty much redundant with those around. Sslyths though...a Shardcarbine, 3 S5 Ap-2 D1 attacks, 3 wounds with 6++ 5+FNP, and the special bodyguard thing, that's pretty fun especially in poisoned tongue. Sadly a lhamean can't buff her own unit. A venom full of Medusae does also seem to have potential - 12" range autohitting AP-2 flamers for 22pts isn't bad. Lhameans and Urghuls seem pretty bad though.

Incubi: +1A, +1S, +1D on both klaive types, Tormentors now 2d6 vs LD to fight last, still has Lethal precision, yay!

Analysis: What's to say? these dudes are just fantastic. Now with upgraded transport capacity, a venom with incubi and an archon in it is just, *chefs kiss*. You can also run them alongside Drazar to turn them into a true murder blender. 2x5 man squads are always better than 1x10 though - double demiklaives, more wounds, just, better.

Mandrakes: Now have Space Marine style scout deployment instead of deep strike, and can fade away at the start of your movmeent phase to go into strategic reserves. No statline changes.

Analysis: with the loss of red grief turn 1 tempo units, Mandrakes getting space marine infiltrate is great. If you wnat to deep strike them normally, you can just plop them down on the battlefield behind something and then fade them away turn 1 - also helpfully having them on the board if your opponent wins first turn and pulls an aggressive move. Losing old PFP FNP does ding their defenses, but they're still fairly irritating to get rid of with -1 to hit and 5++.

Grotesques: Monstrous Cleaver now D2, Liquifier now 12" range, S4 Ap-2 D1 autohitting. Flesh gauntlet now +1S.

Analysis: The gauntlet is now even more pointless, so a mix of liquifiers and maybe very slightly cheaper designated die-er Groteques is the way to set the unit up. Otherwise, not much to say about them: they've always been a bit of a brick unit, now with D2 melee they're killier than before.

Beastmaster: Now required to bring any beasts - 3 beast units for each master. Now T4. can optionally not take up a slot if you include any beasts.

Clawed Fiends: Claws now AP-2

Khymerae: Claws and Talons now S+1 AP-1

Razorwings: Now unit size 3-8

Analysis: Clawed Fiends seem to be the best option overall for beasts if you're gonna bring them, but they now hoover up fast attack slots in a subfaction that reeeeeeeeally wants them. I don't see Beasts being super popular in many army build setups, considering you're gonna want Hellions, Scourges, and Reavers - maybe if you're running with a Realspace raid brigade you'll have the slots to throw in a few scorer fiends and a master.

Reavers: +1A, Bladevanes now S+1 instead of fixed 4, Cluster Caltrops now key off enemy units falling back, Grav Talon now deals D3mw on a 6. heat lance now heavy 1 18" S8 AP-4 D6+2.

Analysis: Heat lances are now ridiculously spicy at 10pts, and reavers are great at carrying them. Bladevanes being S+1 is a nice little add, particularly with the extra attack and all the various ways to give them S+1. There's also a new +1 Ballistic Skill combat drug that's just fantastic on them, and with drugs not being limited anymore you can freely field as many BS2+ heat lances in 3 man squads as you want...well, slots allowing. At 70pts for a min squad with a heat lance, they seem like a viable alternative to blaster scourges at 100pts.

Hellions: T+1 to 4, W+1 to 2, A+1, Hellglaive now AP-1.

Analysis: Damn, what an improvement! They're basically choppy flavored Reavers now, a good little anti-MEQ unit for Wych Cults. The -1AP, Blade Artists, +1A on the charge drug, and +1S from Cursed Blade makes these a real threat to marine units.

Scourges: Ghostplate Armor now a 5+ invuln. now Core.

Analysis: Another edition, another time to figure out which weapon is best on scourges!

Anti-GEQ weaponry:

Shardcarbines: 60pts, 3.32 dead GEQ, 0.055pts per GEQ wound
4 shredders: 80pts, 7.13 dead GEQ, 0.089pts per GEQ wound

Shredders>shards. Shards do have various bonuses available.

Anti-Tank weaponry:

4 blasters: 100pts, 6.2 unsaved wounds, .062 wounds per point
4 Haywire: 100pts, 5.05 unsaved wounds, .05 wounds per point (vast majority of damage is MWs, avoiding Invuln saves)
4 Dark Lance: 120pts, 6.66 unsaved wounds, .055 wounds per point (much longer range)
4 heat lance: 100pts, 7.33 unsaved wounds, .073 wounds per point

Heat lances are best for raw damage, Haywire offers less efficiency but does damage in the form of mortal wounds, and dark lances offer the flexibiliyt of range. I think an argument can be made for all 3. Also, worth noting one thing: with a Realspace Raid a Scourge squad can benefit from the Archon's aura and potentially the Writ of the Living Muse.

Talos: All guns improved, core rule changes, Ichor Injector now does D3 mortals on hit, otherwise unchanged.

With the points for the melee weapon list greatly altered, the arm weaponry is now much more of a choice. heat lances for the guns seem like super no-brainers, though of course the capability to ignore invulns with MWs on the haywire blasters as with the Scourges should be considered. The best builds armwise, to me, seem to be:

-Basic Talos, double cleaver
-Flex to kill 1w models talos, flail+injector
-Expensive good at killing everything talos, Gauntlet+Twin Liq (group with 2 other cheaper talos to add teeth to the unit)

Cronos: Attacks +1 to 4, strength of both ranged weapons +2 to 5, damage characteristic on 6 to 2 from D3 on all weapons. Gained the ability Reservoir of Pain, for each model destroyed in melee 1 CORE unit within 6 can heal by 1 or regain a lost model with 1 wound remaining. Explosion reduced in range to 3". Spirit Probe now limited to CORE and CHARACTER, which does allow him to buff/heal himself since he is CORE.

Analysis: IMO the cronos goes from contender for the worst unit in the game to the heady heights of mediocrity. Not sure what Scari sees in it as an auto-include, it seems like a fine addition to any army that includes some kind of large turn 2 tempo brick unit that's going to aim to soak turn 1 fire instead of avoid turn 1 fire (i.e., not hiding in transports or trying to use extreme mobility to hide midboard behind Obscuring turn 1, so something like a 20-block of Wracks, a max squad of grots on foot, a couple units of Talos, 20 wyches is that a thing anyone's gonna try, maybe, I dunno, probably not. Spirit Probe/No Vortex seems like the obvious loadout for him, and you gotta note the obvious synergy with the new Dark Technomancers, he's yet another coven unit that doesn't really care about the new downside for that rule as his Syphon autohits so he can just overcharge it every turn for zero risk. Another fun function is his use within what I'm waffling between calling "Wrackcrons" and "Pointy Tide" - he provides yet another means to resurrect Wrack models which now have a max unit cap of 20, take them in the 'Heal when you destroy/+1S" custom coven and use them with a master haemonculus with the warlord trait and you just have a ton of dudes that will. not. die.

Ravager: Dark Lances now D3+3, Wounds+1 to 11, disintegrators and Dark Lances now heavy, Chain Snares Shock Prow Grisly Trophies and PGL all reworked.

Analysis: straightforward shooty unit remains straightforward shooty unit. Got a small bump in durability, a small bit more offense in the previously anemic triple lance build (and some nice synergy with a few more Kabals, particularly the two that come with little rerolls) but overall, does the same thing he's always done.

Raider: +1 toughness to tough 6, Chain Snares now +3 to A, Grisly Trophies now -2LD, Bladevanes now +1S, PGL now reworked to cause mortal wounds on each hit, Shock Prow now a strat, Splinter Racks now rapid fire at full range, Transport Capacity up +1 to 11. Now has access to Power from Pain.

Analysis: While the raider lost access to all the auras, overall it's got some huge improvements. Wych cults can use the new chain snares and grisly trophies to amusing effect and the new bladevanes offer some extra fun synergy with a few cults (particularly Cursed Blade making its melee attacks Strength 8), kabals love the new splinter racks and several kabals now feature a single reroll making the improved dark lance on the raider even more effective, and covens can make use of its ability to carry a five-man grotesque squad and an attendant Haemonculus or Urien Rakarth. And with all of them, the slight bump in durability with the +1T is particularly nice in light of the new Heavy Bolter profile. I predict we'll see a whole lot more of these being run now as opposed to Venoms in many different lists.

Venom: Bladevanes now +1S, transport capacity now 6, Splinter Cannons now Heavy 3 36" range Poison 4+ AP-1 D2, Grisly trophies now -2LD, chain snares now +3A, now has power from pain.

Analysis: I think venoms are now slightly more niche than they used to be as 'the default transport'. There are a few combos where they're quite good still - Dark Techno or Dark Creed 5x wracks with 2x liquifiers and the venom rocking Grisly Trophies, Poisoned Tongue shredder kabal squad with 2x splinter cannons on the venom, but generally a bit more limited than before IMO.

Razorwing Jetfighter: Dark Lance now 3+d3, Shatterfield now AP-2 but no reroll to wounds, Splinter cannons now D2, now has PFP.

Analysis: Basically didn't change. We may see a few more flyers due to people running Realspace raid detachments and being able to bring a few more of them, or we may see less now that Test of Skill no longer benefits them. Definitely Wych Cults want flyers less now.

Voidraven bomber: Dark Scythe now 2 damage, Void Lance now D3+3, Implosion Missile now D2, Shatterfield now AP-2 with no rroll to wound. Void mine now targets a spot on the battlefield and rolls a D6 for each unit within 6" of that point, subtracting 1 for a character, and dealing D6 MWs on a 4+.

Analysis: The voidraven is now one spicy little meatball, and definitely something to consider instead of a triple disintegrator Ravager if you were fielding one of those. Particularly on the Kabal side, this thing offers a ridiculously potent counter to any kind of "reroll aura ball MSU" army setup and you can load him up with exclusively damage flat 2 weaponry between the missiles and dark scythes. Basically this thing is like the current ork tactic with Burna Bombers to counter standard marine builds, but slightly less potent and it doesn't explodinate itself when you use it, which I would consider an absolute win.

Great suff, Scottsman, thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm currently leaning towards an Alliance of Agony...with a BH Archon (Writ and Venom Blade), CoS Succubus (Triptych whip)......something something Coven.... so much to take in....


....I bought a Reaper, should that be a painting priority?

I don't know what to paint anymore.

I don't know what to try first, everything seems way more fun to play than before.

Oh wow, that's a fantastic rundown, Scotsman.


One very minor thing - I thought Kabalites had always been able to take 2 special weapons per 10?

Yeah I'm struggling to identify how much is too much.

Ideas wise.

1. RSR Batallion.
Buff Archon - Black Heart, Labyrinthine Cunning, Writ of the Living Muse.
Not sure on Cursed Blade Suicide or Choppy Succubus but I think either works.
Haemi probably the weakest point - but I think Fear Incarnate (Dark Creed Warlord Trait) is potentially massive in certain matchups. Would need some testing.

Min unit of Kabalite Warriors
10 Wyches in Raider
Min unit of Wracks
30 (?) Incubi in 3 Raiders
15 Scourge, 12 Heat Lances.

2. Obsidian Rose Patrol.
Drazhar
Choppy Archon - Master Upgrade, Djin Blade, Ancient Evil.
5 Kabalites in Raider or Venom to taste.

Pointswise that's about 1950 or something, with some points left over to scatter around on special weapons.

I think it might be too all in on Incubi though - swapping one unit and a raider out for a big blob of Hellions might add more utility and open up first turn charges. If you were going this way a choppy Red Grief Succubus might be preferable and while its not that fluffy, the wyches might be able to ditch their raider for another squad or something.

Absolutely IN on playing Dark Creed with Incubi. Add some Trophies and PGLs and the synergy is real (at least).

Is your idea to just put your Archon with the Heat Lances for the RRs?

About the Succubus, have you heard of the Razorflails, Precision Blows and Dark Lotus Toxin one?

 Denegaar wrote:
Absolutely IN on playing Dark Creed with Incubi. Add some Trophies and PGLs and the synergy is real (at least).

Is your idea to just put your Archon with the Heat Lances for the RRs?

About the Succubus, have you heard of the Razorflails, Precision Blows and Dark Lotus Toxin one?

I think the buff Archon would go either with the Heat Lances - or move up with the Incubi - depending on your opponent and where the priority is. Really you'd probably try and engineer both (i.e. buff up the Scourge turn 1/2, get in position to advance/charge into the mid-board objective scramble turn 2/3). You'd have to decide based on the mission, your opponent's list and the terrain. Whether Incubi strictly need all these buffs to blend just about anything I can think of is another question.

Another option would be paying a few more points to swap out the Scourge for 3 Talos. While you halve your heat lances, they can join everyone in charging things, you potentially boost them in two phases and are usually going to be harder to kill. If you have got 4-5 dark lances from raiders as well, that might be enough heavy guns in a meta which seems to be going "anti-tank is so lethal, don't take many tanks, so don't bring that much anti-tank".

I'm actually tempted to say Talos just look very good for their points (although at 7 wounds I think the swap on invul/FNP might tell against), and you could easily take 6-9 of them, but that's quite a different list.

I've not really looked at Charadon - but yes, that combo seems good too. All in all, while it takes relics+warlord traits, it seems you can make quite a few effective characters.

Basically I'm in camp "this codex looks incredibly powerful". The question is what you leave out.

How good are the wytch bikes? I was planing on building an army around helions and bikes, but then 8th edition codex came and they looked really bad.

It seems helions are better. Are bikes good?

 Niiai wrote:
How good are the wytch bikes? I was planing on building an army around helions and bikes, but then 8th edition codex came and they looked really bad.

It seems helions are better. Are bikes good?

Bikes are much better than they were, higher strength, better MW output. Hellions have the edge in certain areas, but the abilty to equip Heat Lances makes Reaver better vs heavier stuff. The units have a nice synergy, and a Strat which boosts them both if you have both types of units within sight of oneanother.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh wow, that's a fantastic rundown, Scotsman.


One very minor thing - I thought Kabalites had always been able to take 2 special weapons per 10?

I didnt think 2 special+heavy was allowed. I may be mistaken.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh wow, that's a fantastic rundown, Scotsman.


One very minor thing - I thought Kabalites had always been able to take 2 special weapons per 10?

I didnt think 2 special+heavy was allowed. I may be mistaken.

Kabalite loadout is the same as previously, a unit of 5 can have a special weapon (plus Sybarite stuff), while a unit of 10 can have two specials and one heavy. 10 Trueborn in a Raider is serious business.

I was wondering about a triple-patrol along these lines:

Obsidian Rose Patrol
Master Archon w/ Djin Blade, Blast Pistol
10 Trueborn w/ Dark Lance, 2x Blaster
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
5 Incubi
Raider w/ Disintegrator
Raider w/ Disintegrator
Raider w/ Disintegrator

Poison Tongue Patrol
Master Archon w/ Agoniser, Soul Seeker
10 Trueborn w/ Dark Lance, 2x Blaster
5 Mandrakes
5 Mandrakes
5 Scourges w/ 4x Dark Lance
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon

Cursed Blade Patrol
Master Succubus (not sure about wargear yet)
10 Bloodbrides w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol 3x Wych weapon, +1A
5 Wyches w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol, +1A
5 Wyches w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol, +1A
9 Reavers w/ 3x heat Lance, +1BS

I think this is around 2000pts


Basically making use of the fact that you can have multiple Master Archons if they're in different detachments and from different Kabals. So I can get 2 Trueborn squads. Also, taking transports from different Kabals to get the best buffs for each.

That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

Mandrakes can now start play infiltrated up the board, and you get a free redeploy with them during the game.

I need to get some Hellions, but they've gone from bargain basement to sold-out in 24 hours

I definitely want to try a spookemup army setup at some point but I think theres many good options for setup beyond just all drukhari Trophy Takers/Dark Creed/Poisoned Tongue.

Looking at what each bring to the table...

Poisoned Tongue: cheapest pgl spam setup with 2x5 kabs in a splinter rack+pgl raider

Easily procced -1 to attrition

Dark Creed: a non-pgl based way to get offense from a spooked up squad, probably best with Talos

Good way to LD-bomb with a grisly trophy Venom with 2 liquifiers in it for -3ld and -1 attrition

Craftworld Eldar: min size detachment with farseer on bike, rangers, hemlock with terrify

Fantastic huge ld bomb on the hemlock, another way to proc offense with mind war

Harlequins: silent Shroud is better Trophy Takers
Death Jester allows more harmful Morale fails and another targeted ld bomb
5x fusions in a weaver is a double duty antitank and ld bomb unit
Harlequins are just busted rn.

A realspace raid battalion + fairly packed Silent Shroud patrol is probably going to be my starting point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

Technically he can buff them with the writ if you're particular with that.

Thanks for the awesome breakdown Scotsman.

Quick question here. The leaked Imgur pages have Reavers at 10 pts/model. Is this still a thing? I know you said minimum size squad was 70 points with a heat lance. That would mean 20 pts/model.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Thanks for the awesome breakdown Scotsman.

Quick question here. The leaked Imgur pages have Reavers at 10 pts/model. Is this still a thing? I know you said minimum size squad was 70 points with a heat lance. That would mean 20 pts/model.

It looks like the UK/English language codex has shipped with them at 10 points.
Given the field manual also had this, and then boosted them to 20 points (as they were in the Spanish Codex leaks, not sure about any others) - it seems inevitable they'll end up being 20 points. Although if you wanted to be that guy, you could theoretically break out 36 Reavers for the next few weeks until GW hold their hands up.

Its the sort of thing that shouldn't happen, bad GW etc - but probably relates in part to the fact these books should have shipped some time before the munitorum field manual update.

Have we seen the way open topped is worded to confirm what rules will and won't affect passengers (obsessions in particular)? The transport rules in the rulebook say passengers cannot be affected by any abilities, but I don't know what all that extends to.

Also, have we seen any specific phrasing on combat drugs to know if that's the kind of ability that will have to be written on the army list so that it can't be changed from game to game like many other abilities in 9th?

It looks like the UK/English language codex has shipped with them at 10 points.
Given the field manual also had this, and then boosted them to 20 points (as they were in the Spanish Codex leaks, not sure about any others) - it seems inevitable they'll end up being 20 points. Although if you wanted to be that guy, you could theoretically break out 36 Reavers for the next few weeks until GW hold their hands up.

Hmm, I definitely don't want to be that guy. But I do want to run 1 or 2 units. It will depend on what I can afford based on their cost. I guess I'll have to wait for the FAQ.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Thanks for the awesome breakdown Scotsman.

Quick question here. The leaked Imgur pages have Reavers at 10 pts/model. Is this still a thing? I know you said minimum size squad was 70 points with a heat lance. That would mean 20 pts/model.

They were at 10 initially in the new MFM which then got two week faqed back to 20.

Theyll be 20 after the two week faq of the dex. Its a typo.


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 lessthanjeff wrote:
Have we seen the way open topped is worded to confirm what rules will and won't affect passengers (obsessions in particular)? The transport rules in the rulebook say passengers cannot be affected by any abilities, but I don't know what all that extends to.

Also, have we seen any specific phrasing on combat drugs to know if that's the kind of ability that will have to be written on the army list so that it can't be changed from game to game like many other abilities in 9th?

I know they recently clarified open topped to basically be "any abilities the unit itself has affect it, including army wide and subfaction rules, but it doesnt get auras or other rules"

I'm so hyped about this new codex, at first glance, it seems better to soup up different kabals and cults, but the poisoned tongue kabal seems fitting for my list;

Poisoned tongue battalion
- archon (warlord, hatred eternal, djin blade)
- drazhar
- 3x5 kabalite (blaster each)
- 3x5 kabalite (shredder each)
- 10 incubi
- 2x5 mandrake
- 5 scourge (4x blaster)
- 3x ravager (3x dark lance each)
- 4x raider (dark lance)
- 4x venom (2x splinter cannon each)
Total 2k
My plan for secondaries are engage on all fronts, teleport homer and one optional (bring it down, assassinate, abhor the witch or thin their ranks)
Should be a decent amount of antitank, now that the dark lance got better damage, and poison 3+ should deal with hordes.
Incubi and mandrakes can deal with melee units.

If youre running PT I think 2x5s in a raider is a waste of good potential splinter cannons.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Perhaps not as good, but they’re also 10 points per model which is insanely good.

They are not. They are 20 points. Yes, I know, the English Codex states they are 10 points. But since the Munitorum Field Manual states that they are 20 points (all the points listed in it do match the new Codex) AND the translated Codex (at least in my French copy) also state they cost 20 points, then that's their price.

I'm intrigued at the possibility of using BH Raiders full of Kabalites (or Trueborn) instead of Ravagers.

That's a good note, i'm also considering realspace raiders with kabal of the black heart. But damn, poison 3+ is just so good.

Another interesting note for competitive list construction: realspace raid does offer the opportunity to have more than 3 subfactions in one list.

Also I think people are seriously sleeping on obrose. They're crazy safe with the new splinter racks.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

Technically he can buff them with the writ if you're particular with that.

That's true. But I'd like to try just Kabal and Cult, so no Coven to make up the RSR.

the_scotsman wrote:

Also I think people are seriously sleeping on obrose. They're crazy safe with the new splinter racks.

I'll confess that I'd largely overlooked Obsidian Rose until I read your review. You make a good point regarding the synergy with Splinter Racks.

I also really like the single reroll to wound for every single unit.

 harlokin wrote:
I'm intrigued at the possibility of using BH Raiders full of Kabalites (or Trueborn) instead of Ravagers.

I like the overall strategy but why Black Heart? Given the limitation of auras, it seems you're not really getting much out of it.

 vipoid wrote:


I like the overall strategy but why Black Heart? Given the limitation of auras, it seems you're not really getting much out of it.

The Black Heart obsession lets each unit re-roll a single hit roll every time it shoots or fights. So the Raider would get a reroll on its Dark Lance, and the Kabalites would get their own reroll.

BH looks really good in a realspsce raid too as Blades For Hire in the detachment also benefit from treating the Power from Pain table as one round higher. So, for example, you could infiltrate Mandrakes in deployment, then advance and charge turn 1. Writ of the Living Muse exends to Blades For Hire if you’re in a Realspace Raid, giving Incubi, Scourges, Mandrakes etc re-roll 1s to hit and wound .

In a Realspace Raid, I don't see any Kabal being better than Black Heart.

It gives +1 PfP to your Incubi and Mandrakes and potentially rerolls to them too with the Archon. And you want to play those units. Incubi are just stupidly good, and Mandrakes with the forward deploy are really good IMO in competitive lists.

I can see other Kabals being really good in triple patrol lists without the RsR. God, there's so much possibilities with this Codex.

EDIT: Have in mind Mandrakes don't get the RR1 to hit, as they are not CORE. They get the Muse RR1 to wound though, as it effectes Blades for Hire.

 harlokin wrote:

The Black Heart obsession lets each unit re-roll a single hit roll every time it shoots or fights. So the Raider would get a reroll on its Dark Lance, and the Kabalites would get their own reroll.

Ah, I missed that. Okay, yeah, that's really useful.

 Denegaar wrote:
In a Realspace Raid, I don't see any Kabal being better than Black Heart.

Same. Which seems a bit of a shame, tbh.

 Denegaar wrote:

It gives +1 PfP to your Incubi and Mandrakes and potentially rerolls to them too with the Archon. And you want to play those units. Incubi are just stupidly good, and Mandrakes with the forward deploy are really good IMO in competitive lists.

Mandrakes with forward deploy and Advance+Charge from turn 1 definitely look interesting.

 Denegaar wrote:

EDIT: Have in mind Mandrakes don't get the RR1 to hit, as they are not CORE. They get the Muse RR1 to wound though, as it effectes Blades for Hire.

Yeah, that was one of the things that made me hesitate. Might still try it at some point but it definitely feels like I wouldn't be making the best use of the Archon.

The Buff Archon will be pretty weak in melee, but so good at buffing the RsR that you'll have to decide where to send him. Anyway, looking at the stratagems of the book, there's so many reroll 1s to hit and to wound that is kinda ridiculous.

The more I read about the book the more I think it's not only fun, but kinda powerful... not Mortarion or full DA terminators powerful, but really balanced at killing and playing the game.

The only stuff I don't like much is Beasts, Flyers and I'm so so with the Scourges. The rest of the stuff has a place and looks effective.

When Skari is saying that Cronos are an auto-take for him, then there is buried treasure in the book.

I'm overall very happy.....but just a bit disappointed that my Flayed Skull fave is pretty meh now.

 harlokin wrote:
When Skari is saying that Cronos are an auto-take for him, then there is buried treasure in the book.

I'm overall very happy.....but just a bit disappointed that my Flayed Skull fave is pretty meh now.

It is a little odd that the other Kabals generally gained abilities but Flayed Skull actually lost one, in addition to also having its movement bonus reduced.

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
When Skari is saying that Cronos are an auto-take for him, then there is buried treasure in the book.

I'm overall very happy.....but just a bit disappointed that my Flayed Skull fave is pretty meh now.

It is a little odd that the other Kabals generally gained abilities but Flayed Skull actually lost one, in addition to also having its movement bonus reduced.

Yeah, I don't get it....BH even took a bit of their schtick with the re-roll attacks bit of their obsession. You could probably make a better Flayed Skull using custom Kabals.

They are not. They are 20 points. Yes, I know, the English Codex states they are 10 points. But since the Munitorum Field Manual states that they are 20 points (all the points listed in it do match the new Codex) AND the translated Codex (at least in my French copy) also state they cost 20 points, then that's their price.

Alright bahd, wanna chill a bit?

New codex supersedes Munitorium Field Manual. And since the English one is the only one I will be using, the points actually ARE 10 points for me until I get an FAQ. So no. Thats not their price, at least not for me.

I understand they will probably be changing the cost to 20 points, and I won't be playing them until then anyway.

This is why I asked, so I wouldn't waste my time and money.

IMO, Reaver Jetbikes are pretty good at 20 points now. They gained:

- Better PfP.
- Better dmg on Heat Lances and the BS drug.
- Better melee with buffable Bladevanes.
- Better Caltrops.
- Better Stratagems with the Rivalry.
- Now Advance and Charge even if not Red Grief.

At 20 is good, at 10 unbelievable.

 Denegaar wrote:
IMO, Reaver Jetbikes are pretty good at 20 points now. They gained:

- Better PfP.
- Better dmg on Heat Lances and the BS drug.
- Better melee with buffable Bladevanes.
- Better Caltrops.
- Better Stratagems with the Rivalry.
- Now Advance and Charge even if not Red Grief.

At 20 is good, at 10 unbelievable.

Oh yeah. Reavers are fine, great even, you can run them totally MSU now without worrying about spreading your drugs. If you're wanting them for melee you might as well use hellions - a sentence no human has ever said before this point ever but there it is - but as a shooty antitank unit to help your wych cults blow up those pesky vehicles, 2+BS MSU heat lances would appear to be the metaphorical bomb.

I think flyers in wych cults are obsolete.

Incidentally I've added changes and analysis for the last few units onto my post two pages back. TLDR is Cronos Better, Decent Quality Now, Ravager didnt really change much, Raiders up, Venoms probably a bit more niche, Razorwing Jetfighters now solidly outclassed by Voidraven Bombers with the new all-D2-All-The-Time setup and the hot new void mine rule.

The new Shock Prow stratagem is hilarious. If you charge with a a Raider/Ravager roll 1d6 for any models in engagement range. If you roll equal to or greater than their Toughness, they take 1MW.

I mean if I was running a coven brick id absolutely bring a cronos along. Its 8 points per wound, and those wounds have some high defenses. If they try to shoot the cronos, fantastic, enjoy being eaten by my talos/grots. If you dont shoot my cronos he'll happily plow in to your screen and give them back a few wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
The new Shock Prow stratagem is hilarious. If you charge with a a Raider/Ravager roll 1d6 for any models in engagement range. If you roll equal to or greater than their Toughness, they take 1MW.

Yeah. Im very meh on it. Basically just another D3 mw strat at the end of the day.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean if I was running a coven brick id absolutely bring a cronos along. Its 8 points per wound, and those wounds have some high defenses. If they try to shoot the cronos, fantastic, enjoy being eaten by my talos/grots. If you dont shoot my cronos he'll happily plow in to your screen and give them back a few wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
The new Shock Prow stratagem is hilarious. If you charge with a a Raider/Ravager roll 1d6 for any models in engagement range. If you roll equal to or greater than their Toughness, they take 1MW.

Yeah. Im very meh on it. Basically just another D3 mw strat at the end of the day.

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

Early rumours seems to have good internal balance. A very good thing.

And they do so far not have the GSC cult problem of 4 melee units who all do the same thing vs the same targets. Wytches, Wracks and Incuby are different beats alltogether.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

Cool. Lots of people who have had the codex for a bit, and know what they are talking about, seem to have a high opinion of the Cronos.

Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

They look good...I think

They have gained an extra point of strength on their Flesh gauntlets and extra damage on their Monstrous cleavers. I think 5+++ benefits them, and there some options. If you go PoF they regain a lost wound in each of your Command phases, while Dark Tech makes Liquifier Grots very viable.

Cronos can bring Grots back from the dead too.

A talos is 15pts cheaper, faster, has melta range out to 18", roughly the same durability, slightly worse melee against some targets but has a whole host of stuff through PFP.

Id take a talos over a dread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
D2 cleavers is a huge game changer on grots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

I would always want Co12 on Hex/Oss wracks. They can raise a banner and shoot the same turn, thats aces.

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

The PfP and Prophets of Flesh changes destroyed what viability they had, perhaps -1D and 3x5/3x9 Grotesques could give them a bit more "oomph" but other than that totally dead


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

I'd rather go 5 Wracks units with double Liquifier, much more suited to them since it's Assault, close range and right before a charge (and also a little Overwatch deterrent)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

They look good...I think

They have gained an extra point of strength on their Flesh gauntlets and extra damage on their Monstrous cleavers. I think 5+++ benefits them, and there some options. If you go PoF they regain a lost wound in each of your Command phases, while Dark Tech makes Liquifier Grots very viable.

Cronos can bring Grots back from the dead too.

6++ and 5+++ even at T5 (T6 with Haemonculus but it has to be fielded alongside them on board) is still subpar for 40 points, -1D is absolutely a necessity but at this point you're going hard on them and not using any Wracks for sure

Just glad that I had some additional foresight and bought 5 more hellions for $23 a few months ago, now that people are trying to flog them on ebay for $50-60. May have to see how many points my wych cult are now, and what I'd want to take it to 2000.

Currently..

2x succubus
2x10 wyches
9 reavers
10 hellions
5 scourges
2 venoms
raider
2 razorwings
archon
10 kabalites

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?

Is there a need to combine it with anything? Toss in another 5 points per squad for an Ossefactor and you're looking at basic infantry that can just mow down Gravis-tier targets en masse for the cost of a basic Guardsman squad. It's a cheap enough slot-in via a Patrol if you're not taking an RSR, and they can still nyoom around in a Kabal Venom or Raider for safekeeping against shooting heavy matchups.

Something that was brought up earlier was the PGL alongside leadership debuffs. I have a sneaking suspicion that particular build may end up having legs, especially since it isnt restricted to Infantry or specific smaller unit keywords. Popping 1d3 possible MW output across the army is tasty as hell.

Sterling191 wrote:
Something that was brought up earlier was the PGL alongside leadership debuffs. I have a sneaking suspicion that particular build may end up having legs, especially since it isnt restricted to Infantry or specific smaller unit keywords. Popping 1d3 possible MW output across the army is tasty as hell.

Hmmmm.
Be interesting to see if someone tries. I just can't quite get the pieces to work in my head.

The problem is Grisly Trophies only having a 3" range. Not the end of the world perhaps when you are flying M14" or 16" - but its low.
If you could get Dark Creed on some transports for the -3 LD, I can see how you'd then pound that target with say 6-9 PGLs, and hope to do a decent number of mortal wounds.
But I'm not sure its much more than that.

Its sort of always been the problem with freakshow lists - how far do you commit over taking things that will just kill stuff.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

The PfP and Prophets of Flesh changes destroyed what viability they had, perhaps -1D and 3x5/3x9 Grotesques could give them a bit more "oomph" but other than that totally dead

Lol. They took a durability nerf and their damage was doubled. They're basically less glass cannon Incubi, you just may want to field them in a Raider now.

5-man with either 5 or 4 Liquifiers in a Raider seems like a no-brainer, they're just less effective than Taloi and Wracks as a brick unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Something that was brought up earlier was the PGL alongside leadership debuffs. I have a sneaking suspicion that particular build may end up having legs, especially since it isnt restricted to Infantry or specific smaller unit keywords. Popping 1d3 possible MW output across the army is tasty as hell.

Hmmmm.
Be interesting to see if someone tries. I just can't quite get the pieces to work in my head.

The problem is Grisly Trophies only having a 3" range. Not the end of the world perhaps when you are flying M14" or 16" - but its low.
If you could get Dark Creed on some transports for the -3 LD, I can see how you'd then pound that target with say 6-9 PGLs, and hope to do a decent number of mortal wounds.
But I'm not sure its much more than that.

Its sort of always been the problem with freakshow lists - how far do you commit over taking things that will just kill stuff.

With PGLs and Dark Creed +1 to hit you've got some solid ways to proc offense off of leadership bombing. The biggest problem with Freakshow lists has always been the amount of factions that don't give a gak about morale. In this case, Space Marines who ignore attrition mods.

Versus any other army, we have the means to make leadership failures absolutely disgusting. -2 to attrition with Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue means 1/2 of any squad goes when they fail a test, and putting down -3ld is trivial.

However, i do think it'll end up being necessary to give up PFP to get Silent Shroud harlequin allies. The Silent Shroud subfaction tactic+the mask of secrets will make those -2 attrition tests vastly easier to achieve.

the_scotsman wrote:

With PGLs and Dark Creed +1 to hit you've got some solid ways to proc offense off of leadership bombing. The biggest problem with Freakshow lists has always been the amount of factions that don't give a gak about morale. In this case, Space Marines who ignore attrition mods.

Versus any other army, we have the means to make leadership failures absolutely disgusting. -2 to attrition with Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue means 1/2 of any squad goes when they fail a test, and putting down -3ld is trivial.

However, i do think it'll end up being necessary to give up PFP to get Silent Shroud harlequin allies. The Silent Shroud subfaction tactic+the mask of secrets will make those -2 attrition tests vastly easier to achieve.

The attrition modifier is for sure matchup dependent, but having ways to sprinkle MWs against hyper durable things like bricks of DG Terminators or Custodes in general is straight up gold. I think pretty much the only army that would be unaffected is Orks due to the way Mob Rule functions (effectively inflates Ld to up to 30). Tyranids will take it on the chin since Synapse is an auto-pass to Morale, not a leadership value modifier.

I'm glad Lelith is decent. I mean she could be D tier character and I'd still field her. I love the lore, I love the model (yeah even the new one with thicc thighs).

I know the generic Succubus is better but I'm always going to run Lelith. Even in a multi Wych Cult patrol I'll take Lelith and she'll be my warlord.

Once my LGS starts doing tournaments I'll drop her for a more "efficient" HQ. Then again my city is small, only around 10-12 people play 40k and none of them have ever played in anything more competitive than the local tournaments around here and from the lists I've seen I doubt any of them have browsed the 40k forums or YT to copy/paste the top table net lists.

Blood Dancer lelith is just as efficient as any succubus build in Strife IMO. Just because she can't quite one-round a marine captain with average rolls (falling one wound short) she can easily survive the attacks from any non-relic based build (and several common relic builds) and kill him in the opponent's turn.

Shardnet+Impaler succubus with Dark Lotus Toxin and Precision Blows is able to deal more damage to elite targets, but not everything you run into is 4++ protected marine captains.

Lelith's value is far more in being a disruptor than in outright murder (and she isn't a slouch in the latter, it's just that specific other Succubi builds are just hyper-lethal even by the standards of 9th). Getting effectively 18" of bonus movement in the Fight phase, and most of it without restriction, can make an absolute mess of an opponent's lines. Combine with her always fight first Obsession and she's just going to kimbo slice through opponents who dont have something specifically to shut her down.

 harlokin wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

Cool. Lots of people who have had the codex for a bit, and know what they are talking about, seem to have a high opinion of the Cronos.

Lots? So far I have only seen skari praising the cronos. I like skari and appreciate that like me, he tries to put shine on even the worst turd, however in this instance I REALLY don't see the Cronos being an auto take at all.

For one it's kinda slow, then once it makes melee it has low attacks at a horrid WS and AP and only 1 damage. I mean, it's averaging 0.7 unsaved wounds verse MEQ and it needs to kill things to res anything. So it's not even bringing back one dude there.

Then you look at it's price and realize you can just field more of anything else your trying to bring back to life in the first place. Seriously, I was in that stream of his and he was excited at the thought of bringing incubi back to life, you could just take an entire 5 man unit instead of the cronos to begin with.

I could maybe see it as a cheaper then a talos objective camper. But even then it just seems like a waste of opportunity elsewhere.

Even its reroll aura is redundant. Kabal can get it with the writ in a RSR and it buffs everything in both phases. Cult already gets it from a succubus and Coven has torurers craft for full rerolls.

Sadly it needed a total redesign and it didn't get one. I honestly think it's weapons should have functioned exactly like the Phantasm GL procing mortals off leadership, then healing from that damage. Would have synergized perfectly with the dark creed and the other LD shenanigans in the rest of the army.


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 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

Dark Tech is so good still on any of the wrack guns and even the vehicles although at a risk. Damage 3 hex rifles and ossefactors from the back field is solid. Raiders with damage d3+4 dark lances are basically mini reapers with transport capacity. I am having trouble looking past dark tech now that PoF took such a major hit. Dark creed looks fun as an alternative but you basically get their trait on every vehicle now and LD mechanics are always super gimicky and usually avoidable for a ton of factions. Orks break heads, guard take it on d3, GSC nids and most of chaos is immune, Necrons are all LD 10 and marines are all at least immune to attrition.

Sterling191 wrote:
she's just going to kimbo slice through opponents who dont have something specifically to shut her down.

Will she though? I mean, that's kind of the issue with characters like her. Strength 4 is frankly just pathetic for a melee beatstick, even with lots of attacks. I can kind of empathize with the idea of a disruptive utility, but her damage output is frankly really poor against anything that matters.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
she's just going to kimbo slice through opponents who dont have something specifically to shut her down.

Will she though? I mean, that's kind of the issue with characters like her. Strength 4 is frankly just pathetic for a melee beatstick, even with lots of attacks. I can kind of empathize with the idea of a disruptive utility, but her damage output is frankly really poor against anything that matters.

S4 rerollable versus characters, and versus everything else, there doesn't tend to be that much excessive toughness running around. She suffers a bit vs T5 base armies like Death Guard, but you actually want more D1 attacks vs fewer D2 attacks against Death Guard, and most of the succubus alternative builds that look good are D2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

Cool. Lots of people who have had the codex for a bit, and know what they are talking about, seem to have a high opinion of the Cronos.

Lots? So far I have only seen skari praising the cronos. I like skari and appreciate that like me, he tries to put shine on even the worst turd, however in this instance I REALLY don't see the Cronos being an auto take at all.

For one it's kinda slow, then once it makes melee it has low attacks at a horrid WS and AP and only 1 damage. I mean, it's averaging 0.7 unsaved wounds verse MEQ and it needs to kill things to res anything. So it's not even bringing back one dude there.

Then you look at it's price and realize you can just field more of anything else your trying to bring back to life in the first place. Seriously, I was in that stream of his and he was excited at the thought of bringing incubi back to life, you could just take an entire 5 man unit instead of the cronos to begin with.

I'm not out here saying it's an autoinclude by any means, but I can see basically 2 main use cases.

Use case 1, the obvious one, you field it alongside at least one maxed unit of Talos pain engines. You're presenting an opponent with an extra body with the exact same defensive profile, but it's 30 points cheaper, and it's got the dangling carrot of being a force multiplier that your opponent can freely target.

Either your opponent targets it, leaving all lets say 6 of your taloi on the field, or your opponent concentrates the taloi instead and you've got the potential to set up the resurrection of a talos (which is a little easier than you'd think to do since you do have the extra D3 healing from the haemonculus you've almost certainly also got hanging around). If he does that, instantly worth it to bring him along.

Use case 2, bring him alongside some more mobile glass cannon type unit like 10 incubi in a raider or a large unit of hellions and advance him towards the enemy lines turn 2 to get the aura on them and the strat off once they kill their target.

Also, i get .95 wounds on average vs MEQ before he gets WS3+ from turn 3 on. Are you not accounting for the fact that if he rolls a 6 to wound his attack becomes AP-2 D2?

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?

Is there a need to combine it with anything? Toss in another 5 points per squad for an Ossefactor and you're looking at basic infantry that can just mow down Gravis-tier targets en masse for the cost of a basic Guardsman squad. It's a cheap enough slot-in via a Patrol if you're not taking an RSR, and they can still nyoom around in a Kabal Venom or Raider for safekeeping against shooting heavy matchups.

Possibly not.

I was just a little unsure as to whether they packed sufficient firepower to kill characters without additional support.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Dark Tech is so good still on any of the wrack guns and even the vehicles although at a risk. Damage 3 hex rifles and ossefactors from the back field is solid. Raiders with damage d3+4 dark lances are basically mini reapers with transport capacity. I am having trouble looking past dark tech now that PoF took such a major hit. Dark creed looks fun as an alternative but you basically get their trait on every vehicle now and LD mechanics are always super gimicky and usually avoidable for a ton of factions. Orks break heads, guard take it on d3, GSC nids and most of chaos is immune, Necrons are all LD 10 and marines are all at least immune to attrition.

GSC having a 6" fearless aura on one definitely killable character I wouldn't say makes them 'immune' to morale, and guard being able to use a strat on one unit to take the test on D3 being a major barrier has me scratching my head as well. I'm not familiar with any chaos morale immunity mechanics, I know you can use the apostle to have a unit use his leadership (which is the easiest thing for a freakshow setup to counter in terms of morale immunity mechanics since you can just ld-bomb that unit and usually anything within 6" of him as well.

I don't think DC is the best hotness ever but I do think you're massively overselling 9th as an edition where morale immunity is universal. Compared to editions past when Fearless was something nearly every army had it's vastly easier to deal with now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?

Is there a need to combine it with anything? Toss in another 5 points per squad for an Ossefactor and you're looking at basic infantry that can just mow down Gravis-tier targets en masse for the cost of a basic Guardsman squad. It's a cheap enough slot-in via a Patrol if you're not taking an RSR, and they can still nyoom around in a Kabal Venom or Raider for safekeeping against shooting heavy matchups.

Possibly not.

I was just a little unsure as to whether they packed sufficient firepower to kill characters without additional support.

Maybe in dark tech if you have 3-4 of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is the general shape of where I'm thinking of starting with a Freakshow setup:

Realspace Raid Battalion (Wyches: Trophy Takers/something else probably just damage, Kabals: Poisoned Tongue, Covens: Dark Creed)

HQ: Archon, Huskblade, Splinter (Relic: Djinn Blade, Trait: Hatred Eternal)

HQ: Succubus, Shardnet and Impaler

HQ: Haemonculus

Troops: 5x wracks, ossefactor+hexrifle
Troops: 5x wracks, ossefactor+hexrifle
Troops: 5x wracks, 2x liquifier, electrocorrosive
Troops: 10x Kabalites, blaster, PGL, Splinter cannon
Troops: 10x Kabalites, blaster, PGL, Splinter cannon
Troops: 10x wyches, 1 of each wych weapon, PGL

Elites: 5x Incubi
Elites: 5x Incubi


Transport: Raider, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Transport: Raider, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Transport: Venom, twin splinter+cannon, Grisly Trophies
Transport: Raider, PGL, Splinter Racks
Transport: Raider, PGL, Splinter Racks

Harlequin Patrol, Silent Shroud Masque

HQ: Troupe Master, Embrace, Fusion Pistol

Troop: Troupe, 5x Fusions
Troop: Troupe, 5x Fusions

Elite: Death Jester, Death is not Enough
Elite: Solitaire, Relic: Mask of Secrets

Fast: 2x Skyweavers, Haywire

Primarily, I try to keep everything that can be armed with anti-tank weaponry armed as such because the leadership shenanigans can do so much to clear out infantry almost automatically. For secondaries I'd go for the "1 point for every model that flees" one obviously, plus Engage and Raise Banners if there isn't a better one available from the mission.

Chaos have warlord traits as well as abbadon that make their line fearless. So it's not a set thing. I was just highlighting that most factions have an answer to this style list, so sure you will probably catch them but then it's fairly easy for them to build in counters for any future matches.

I guess I am not a huge fan for 2 reasons.

The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

And verse elite armies you still need a way to proc the roll. So for example custodes, they are the prime target for this, incredibly expensive models that have no attrition imunity. But they have 3 model units 90% time lol. So your required to kill at least 1, and even then with -3 they are down to a ld5 meaning they need a 6. On large units your going to need to kill a few more obviously, at which point your kind of already winning, but they still can use the 2 cp auto pass for that crucial turn. Sure you can try again next turn, but at that point the unit is probably already destroyed.


The 2nd obviously subjective reason for me not being a huge fan is the feels bad moments it creates. I have dabbled with this in the past and a lot of players have no idea what your doing and then look surprised and let down as you use a back door in the game to remove their guys. Some folks will love it at first, but most will get tired of it in my experience. Most competitive players won't have any problem at all, but I'll be honest, this stuff never has the big splash verse those players.

I mean the nice thing about it to me is because it's all subfaction based, it's just something I can bust out for a fun game every once in a while - generally, when I want to bring Harlequins and Dark Eldar together it makes a good themed list.

From a competitive standpoint I feel like its mostly just a tool in your belt to keep in mind if a particular meta turns up that's susceptible to it. like if plaguebearer/plague marine spam nurgle armies became a big meta thing, you could probably use this to fairly good effect.

It's like the option of bringing 2 all-D2 Voidravens. Something you want in a TAC list? Naw. But if the meta went real crazy for MSU space marine aura-balls for a moment, that'd be an excellent tool in your belt to sneak in and sweep an event.

In general, I think coven of 12, Dark Technomancers, or the -1 damage one is probably the best for a covens TAC setup depending on what kinds of units you want to base your list around (5-man ossefactor/hexrifle wracks and grots on raiders I'd probably go Co12, talos corpsethief-style bricks I'd go -1 damage, liquifier spam venoms I'd go dark tech)

I am very curious about how a wrack spam meme list would work though. Obsessive Collectors/+1 Strength, 2 haemies, a couple cronos and then maybe 6 talos and then many blocks of 20 wracks. Sounds hilarious to me.

Oh and I have another use for a Cronos.

You liquifier something to death with your mob of grots and pop 2 cp to get them the entire PfP table.

I still think the Cronos kind of sucks, happy he got some mild use. I just happen to think that use is more the same as before, a cheaper talos.

His heal ability is just not good IMO. I get folks are excited to res a talos but it just isn't going to happen outside of once in a blue moon. The requirements are just hilariously convoluted. You need to have lost a model, but have no spill over damage. If you do, sure a haemi could heal it, but its only d3 and you can't cp reroll it. If it's anything over 3 damage you auto fail the mission lol. Remember you can't CP reroll the heal either.

I think his ability obviously works best on 1 wound infantry but as I said before your better off just taking either a raider or more of them instead.

I'll field him myself by the way 100% and I am happy others are too, but I just want to be honest in a tactics thread.

My dream was for decent hellions and cronos. I got insane hellions and a still bad Cronos. I'll take my win here, hopefully next go around they finally figure out how he should work. I mean, he could have removed obsec from a unit he damages, debuffed auras, attacked their leadership, moved the PfP table ahead a turn as an aura etc etc. It's not hard to think of way to make him cool.

Theoretically there's not a limit on the number of models you can pain syphon in a turn though, isn't there? like if you get a cronos into a squad of chaos cultists or guardsmen turn 3+, theoretically you could heal the last HP on a talos, resurrect a talos with 1hp, and then heal him up to 2, right? It's every time he eats a model.

the_scotsman wrote:
Theoretically there's not a limit on the number of models you can pain syphon in a turn though, isn't there? like if you get a cronos into a squad of chaos cultists or guardsmen turn 3+, theoretically you could heal the last HP on a talos, resurrect a talos with 1hp, and then heal him up to 2, right? It's every time he eats a model.

I believe so, which is hilarious and I want it to be a thing but he has 4 attacks at WS4+

They should have made his tentacles, pick one for the fight phase double attacks or flat 2 damage, and both pain engines should have WS3+ BS3+ IMO

They also could have let his ranged attacks also work to heal.

Anyway, I am aware the Cronos is still bad to mediocre, I dont agree with Skari that he's an autoinclude at all, I just don't think I'll be embarrassed to put him on the table anymore, I'll just cheerfully plop him down next to my 3 talos, and he can be my happy plaid bagpipe monster where I explain to my opponent that every ability he has is due to the fact that he is an ambulatory set of bagpipes.

Soul siphon? The dark eldar love pain, so they just love bagpipes. The flamer attack? Got too close to the bagpipes. Spirit probe? I'm playing amazing grace as my talos charge in, they're inspired as hell now.

Regarding the Cronos, might he be worth it in Dark Technomancers?

Thinking primarily for his relatively low cost and various ranged weapons.

the_scotsman wrote:
Anyway, I am aware the Cronos is still bad to mediocre, I dont agree with Skari that he's an autoinclude at all, I just don't think I'll be embarrassed to put him on the table anymore, I'll just cheerfully plop him down next to my 3 talos, and he can be my happy plaid bagpipe monster where I explain to my opponent that every ability he has is due to the fact that he is an ambulatory set of bagpipes.

Soul siphon? The dark eldar love pain, so they just love bagpipes. The flamer attack? Got too close to the bagpipes. Spirit probe? I'm playing amazing grace as my talos charge in, they're inspired as hell now.

Please tell me you've modelled your Cronos this way.

Oh he's just painted funny. I felt like the fluted back spikeys and the big tube sticking out of the spirit probe made him look like a bagpipe so I painted his carapace green plaid.

Dark Tech a perfectly fine subfaction for him, but he's just got the one little weeny flamer weapon. But DT definitely has a reason to want to bring a full squad of 5 liquifier grots in a raider, who synergize nicely with the cronos popping off his strat.

5 DT liquifier grots are gonna kill SOMETHING turn 2, almost guaranteed, so you might as well make sure they have a 5++ and ld immunity going into the next turn when your opponent gets a crack at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Army setup that I just realized I had the models for so I absolutely have to try:

-Custom cult trait test of skill+experimental concoctions (whatever the roll a d3 get a bonus drug one is called)

-take tons of wyches loaded into raiders and hellions

-roll 2 randomly for the combat drugs of every single one of your units

-pop experimental concoctions and use hyperstimm backlash on whichever one of your units got the best roll on Statline Yahtzee

lol yea thats actually pretty funny. I love all the random things that probably fell under the design radar. Like the 18 attack succubus lol

Has anyone seen the grot data slate? My only concern is what weapon you are forced to drop in order to take the liquifier. Not sure I love the idea of losing the cleaver for it. Hopefully they changed that from the old book.

Same goes for the succubus. Is she forced into taking the glaive in order to take a blast pistol? I hated that as I generally run with the triptich whip and I doubt thats changing now that they buffed the crap out of the whip.


Has anyone found a fun loadout for a haemi yet?

So far I have seen plenty of archons ans succubi but nothing really mean for a haemi.

 Red Corsair wrote:
lol yea thats actually pretty funny. I love all the random things that probably fell under the design radar. Like the 18 attack succubus lol

Has anyone seen the grot data slate? My only concern is what weapon you are forced to drop in order to take the liquifier. Not sure I love the idea of losing the cleaver for it. Hopefully they changed that from the old book.

Same goes for the succubus. Is she forced into taking the glaive in order to take a blast pistol? I hated that as I generally run with the triptich whip and I doubt thats changing now that they buffed the crap out of the whip.

Oh damn, I didn't think to check. Yeah, if you're swapping the cleaver for the liquifier that's a whole lot less useful (though D2 liquifiers with +1 to wound are still gonna be fire in dark tech)

I'm guessing since that's the way the model gets put together, you still have to swap the cleaver for the liquifier. That sucks, even if the grot's liquifier is only 5 vs 10 for Wracks.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Same goes for the succubus. Is she forced into taking the glaive in order to take a blast pistol?

Sadly, yeah.

If you want any sort of pistol it's Glaive or nothing.

It's one of those "This is how the model is built and by god we're sticking to it!" issues.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Has anyone found a fun loadout for a haemi yet?

I mean, he's only got the one.

Being unable to tweak wargear makes the Hammy a whole lot less creative. They're sadly largely just buff/debuff sticks now.

I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

Admittedly, a lot fewer of his relics, traits and subfaction rules revolve around straight up combat now. You can probably make him fairly killy with Coven of 12 though. They've got a relic that makes his scissors d3 damage, he does d3MWs with his injector, and they have a strat to drop an extra d3mws after he consolidates.

Like was anyone really making beautiful music with Venom Blades, Power Swords, Agonizers, Flesh Gauntlets and...that other thing I always forget the name of that is some kind of glove with bad stats on the haemie?

I don't have the links to the codex images anymore so wasn't sure if the coven of 12 still had the autopsy tools from hell as a relic.

Too bad they didn't give the haemi a one time use ichor injector that just emptied his sump into someone lol

Also if anyone still has a solid link to the codex leaks and wants to PM me I'd be grateful and probably more useful to the discussion lol.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

Admittedly, a lot fewer of his relics, traits and subfaction rules revolve around straight up combat now. You can probably make him fairly killy with Coven of 12 though. They've got a relic that makes his scissors d3 damage, he does d3MWs with his injector, and they have a strat to drop an extra d3mws after he consolidates.

Like was anyone really making beautiful music with Venom Blades, Power Swords, Agonizers, Flesh Gauntlets and...that other thing I always forget the name of that is some kind of glove with bad stats on the haemie?

I thought the Hammy injector is now just a flat 1, with the Talos one being d3? And the consolidation mortals are only playable against characters IIRC.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't have the links to the codex images anymore so wasn't sure if the coven of 12 still had the autopsy tools from hell as a relic.

Too bad they didn't give the haemi a one time use ichor injector that just emptied his sump into someone lol

Also if anyone still has a solid link to the codex leaks and wants to PM me I'd be grateful and probably more useful to the discussion lol.

Yeah, they do. I can hit you up when I get back to my home computer.

Flensing Blade still d3d and still flat 3 vs characters, though I forget its exact rules.

Spirit Sting out of dark creed also makes a haemie a decent character hunter. It ignores invulnerable saves now.

Outside of those two, there's not really a ton you can do to make them super crazy fighters.

It is worth noting that their baseline dueling capabilities are pretty good. Basic haemonculus does 2.25 unsaved wounds vs a marine captain. Basic succubus with the best weapon (shardnet+impaler) does 1.66 and basic huskblade archon does 1.38.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

Admittedly, a lot fewer of his relics, traits and subfaction rules revolve around straight up combat now. You can probably make him fairly killy with Coven of 12 though. They've got a relic that makes his scissors d3 damage, he does d3MWs with his injector, and they have a strat to drop an extra d3mws after he consolidates.

Like was anyone really making beautiful music with Venom Blades, Power Swords, Agonizers, Flesh Gauntlets and...that other thing I always forget the name of that is some kind of glove with bad stats on the haemie?

I thought the Hammy injector is now just a flat 1, with the Talos one being d3? And the consolidation mortals are only playable against characters IIRC.

Yep, that's true, keep mixing the haemy injector up with the talos injector.

There's not a whole lot you can do to make the haemie that crazy vs infantry, even less you can get him to kill vehicles (not like he's ever been able to do that) but you can give him a few tricks vs characters.

Thanks scottsman, appreciate the info inks when you can get to it.

So the coven of 12 guy is interesting, I thought I read somewhere that you could add +1 damage to the haemi somehow, so I figured the 6 attacks with the scissor hand might be decentish.

Don't expect a whole lot from the guy, I used to prefer using mine as gun platforms so it looks like maybe dark creed is my only option outside him just being tougher then 2 dollar steak.

A really tough dink that is bringing wracks back constantly is still very strong, also great that they can heal, that was also on my wish list so really he is in a fitting spot now. I'll just need to get all my hex rifles on wracks. Speaking of which, it's kind of min blowing that the 30 I have might not be enough for certain lists I'd like to take. Doubt I'll buy any more though, that kit was cancer to clean, build and paint.

Regarding the Haemonculus, do you think there's a good way to make use of the return-from-death ability, beyond just having it as insurance?

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

I do very much miss the option to take a Hexrifle or Liquifier Gun on him.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't have the links to the codex images anymore so wasn't sure if the coven of 12 still had the autopsy tools from hell as a relic.

Too bad they didn't give the haemi a one time use ichor injector that just emptied his sump into someone lol

Also if anyone still has a solid link to the codex leaks and wants to PM me I'd be grateful and probably more useful to the discussion lol.

Yeah, they do. I can hit you up when I get back to my home computer.

If you're willing, I'd also be extremely grateful to see the codex leaks again.

the_scotsman wrote:

It is worth noting that their baseline dueling capabilities are pretty good. Basic haemonculus does 2.25 unsaved wounds vs a marine captain. Basic succubus with the best weapon (shardnet+impaler) does 1.66 and basic huskblade archon does 1.38.

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

 vipoid wrote:

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

I think it's more a statement about how abysmal the default Huskblade is. "Downgrade" him to a venom blade and he does about twice as well I believe (havent run the numbers, just looking at die shifts between the two weapons)

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

I think it's more a statement about how abysmal the default Huskblade is. "Downgrade" him to a venom blade and he does about twice as well I believe (havent run the numbers, just looking at die shifts between the two weapons)

It looks that way. You either go Huskblade to get a Djinn Blade, or you go Venom Blade which seems decent. With the latter you could at a pinch use the anti vehicle poison stratagem.

If you have the patience to sift through it, there's a video of the entire codex on YT: https://youtu.be/VMbTaeGrwr0

Also am i reading this right in that thw stimm addict WT says roll 2 additional dice when determining combat drugs, so you could in theory roll two dice initially, then roll another two dice and benefit from 4 combat drugs at once? Precision blows still seems like it would be better but.. +1 A, Str, T +2" move is quite appealing, even if you get the +1WS rolled that at least means anyone's -1 to hit aura is cancelled out too?

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

I think it's more a statement about how abysmal the default Huskblade is. "Downgrade" him to a venom blade and he does about twice as well I believe (havent run the numbers, just looking at die shifts between the two weapons)

I've done the numbers against basic marines and all his weapons are equally abysmal.

Though it might interest you to know that the Huskblade is actually his best weapon, tied with the PT Agoniser.

The archon is definitely gak at combat unless you give him the one hyper obvious warlord trait that casually doubles his damage, yes.

the_scotsman wrote:
The archon is definitely gak at combat unless you give him the one hyper obvious warlord trait that casually doubles his damage, yes.

Which amusingly also makes a blast pistol (or regular Blaster if you're playing with folks who dont mind Legends) quite reliable since it's now full hits *and* wounds.

 vipoid wrote:

I've done the numbers against basic marines and all his weapons are equally abysmal.

Though it might interest you to know that the Huskblade is actually his best weapon, tied with the PT Agoniser.

You're right, I completely spaced on the huskblade going to flat D2. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'm not sure you'd take characters if you can't give them warlord traits/relics.

To a degree you could say that's sad - but you can, so I'm not really sure its a problem.

Quick question, say I wanted to take two master succubus for two squads of blood brides...if I both my detachments have a custom obsession, as long as the combination of abilities is different they would be considered a different cult?

I'm pretty sure there's precedence somewhere that if the obsession abilities chosen were the same they would be considered the same they'd be considered the same cult even if I named them differently.

Octovol wrote:
Quick question, say I wanted to take two master succubus for two squads of blood brides...if I both my detachments have a custom obsession, as long as the combination of abilities is different they would be considered a different cult?

I'm pretty sure there's precedence somewhere that if the obsession abilities chosen were the same they would be considered the same they'd be considered the same cult even if I named them differently.

Im not seeing anything in my codex that actually specifies that, but you'd have to track buffs separately for them. Like "Trophy Takers/Slashing Impact cult A" would not be able to buff "Trophy Takers/Slashing Impact Cult B".

otherwise, it seems you are free to go nuts with that s'il vous voulez.

Tyel wrote:
I'm not sure you'd take characters if you can't give them warlord traits/relics.

The problem isn't that you wouldn't otherwise give the Archon traits/relics. The problem is the opportunity cost of doing so.

Traits and relics are 1-per-model each and are mutually exclusive by definition.

Other HQs - especially those meant for melee combat - have good melee weapons by default (e.g. SM captains have power fists, thunder hammers and relic blades). Hence, they can use their relics and traits to improve other areas without completely sacrificing their melee ability.

However, if an Archon wants to do this then they basically have to give up their melee potential entirely. This seems like exceptionally poor design.


If you want a different example (since people might argue that SM's are GW's favourite and so get the best toys), take instead the Canoness. Like the Archon, she can take a Power Sword. However, she can also take a Blessed Blade (S+2, AP-3 D1d3). Literally a Huskblade but with +2S, better AP and more variable damage.

The closest non-Relic weapon an Archon can get to that profile is a Power Sword with the Consummate Weaponmaster warlord trait... and it's still worse than the Blessed Blade.

But even if it's equivalent, the Archon is now using a Warlord Trait to get the same weapon that a Canoness can take as standard.

And bear in mind that the Archon is meant to be a far more melee-oriented character than the Canoness.

The reason this frustrates me is that most other characters start off competent in their basic roles (or can be made such with basic wargear). Hence, I can freely take some of the more fun relics and traits, without compromising their core function. In contrast, the Archon is terrible even at his core function unless you give him traits and relics.

More than anything, I just don't understand the reasoning behind this. The Huskblade was already weak by the standards of comparable weapons, yet it actually got nerfed even harder, to the point where its only function is to be swapped out for one specific relic.

I dunno, I guess honestly I'm just not all that interested in some doofy "cause d3 mortal wounds to a thing within 2" on a roll of a 5+ once per game on a tuesday" or the old classic "a pistol, but like, I dunno, damage 2?" relic, and we get so many relics and warlord traits for the cost of a couple CP, you hand me a character who can be 100pts with 10 melee attacks...I'm gonna give him a melee weapon relic probably 99 times out of 100.

Ok old pals, it was said in the rumors I believe how the Scourges changing most of their fire on the move weapons to heavy when they can't avoid move and shoot penalty to heavy somehow makes them do more damage.

I need some veteran advice as to why that is true as to me that feels like a net gain of bad. What am I missing ?

I ask because I love the models so in my DE list I use them but this feels an awful lot like it is counter intuitive to their design of highly mobile to place most all their weapons as heavy.

They messed up a little with the Scourges.

Anyway, they are a good Scramblers unit going stock Shardcarbines, 60pts for a flying fast unit that can deepstrike and that now they are 5++ is just fine.

Also they can start static on the board with heavy weaponry and be accompanied by an Archon in a Realspace Raid.

Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

(Disclaimer: not a Drukhari player since the last millennia, but anyway.)

Whilst you´re right on the aspect you are referring to, that´s not what the question was about. You are talking about if there´s a point in Freakshow strategy for killing stuff. The question is if Fear and Terror will pay off enough VP for the strategy. That´s a different thing because of the lower benchmark. Looking at Goonhammers data, 7+ secondary VP is good. Hence that´s the benchmark imo.

I believe Fear and Terror is part of a grander strategy. Like this; the Freakshow thrives on close proximity to the enemy, which means close range, which means objective play. So you want to force engagement by contesting objectives. Whilst at the objective(s) you grind away and force 1-3 extra losses per turn to the average MEQ-list. By the scale of killing efficiency this isn´t impressive, no.

Yet, by just doing the thing you want to do anyway you are ticking in VP (approaching the benchmark), there´s no quarters tax from Engage and you can easily solve Scramble plus as third secondary pick whatever Purge suits the opponent of the day. The point is that it´s a neat fitting piece of a puzzle you already started with.

Will Fear and Terror always be the right pick? No it wont. But as a TAC strategy it may be a decent bet.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

If you are worried about hitting on 4s, you can always take Blasters.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Ok old pals, it was said in the rumors I believe how the Scourges changing most of their fire on the move weapons to heavy when they can't avoid move and shoot penalty to heavy somehow makes them do more damage.

I need some veteran advice as to why that is true as to me that feels like a net gain of bad. What am I missing ?

I ask because I love the models so in my DE list I use them but this feels an awful lot like it is counter intuitive to their design of highly mobile to place most all their weapons as heavy.

Old Scourges vs standard T7 3+ Vehicles:

Haywire: 4.44 unsaved wounds
Blaster: 6.21 unsaved wounds
Dark Lance (moving): 4.662 unsaved wounds
Heat Lance (lol): 3.08 unsaved wounds.

New Scourges vs standard T7 3+ vehicles

Haywire: 6.00 unsaved wounds
Blaster: 6.21 unsaved wounds
Dark Lance (moving): 6.66 unsaved wounds
Heat Lance (moving): 7.326 unsaved wounds

I'm not sure what's to explain. All the guns that went Heavy got way way WAY stronger to more than compensate. the average roll of D6 is a 3.5 (because you can't roll a 0 it's slightly more than 3) and the average roll of D6+2 is 5.5, almost double. So if you almost double the damage, and then apply a -1 to hit, which is a 17% penalty...you still do more damage.

The Haywire Blaster also got way stronger as well. The old mortal wound thing is unchanged, but it now wounds vehicles automatically on a 4+, and the core statline went from AP-1 and damage 1 to AP-3 and damage D3, so you're going to be wounding more with the basic statline of the gun than the mortal wounds.

The nice thing is, no matter what your scourges are armed with, you don't really have a reason to feel bad about any of it. Sure, blasters are very slightly less efficient, you'd rather have a heat lance, but it's nowhere NEAR as big a feels-bad as if you'd glued one with a heat lance before. Haywire does less, but it does its damage partially in mortal wounds, so you juke Invulnerable saves. The Dark Lance does a bit less, but it's got longer range so you can set up in a safer position.

If you've got a ton of blaster scourges (As I do, I've got a whole squad) maybe consider running them as the nearly identical looking shredder.


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 Scactha wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

(Disclaimer: not a Drukhari player since the last millennia, but anyway.)

Whilst you´re right on the aspect you are referring to, that´s not what the question was about. You are talking about if there´s a point in Freakshow strategy for killing stuff. The question is if Fear and Terror will pay off enough VP for the strategy. That´s a different thing because of the lower benchmark. Looking at Goonhammers data, 7+ secondary VP is good. Hence that´s the benchmark imo.

I believe Fear and Terror is part of a grander strategy. Like this; the Freakshow thrives on close proximity to the enemy, which means close range, which means objective play. So you want to force engagement by contesting objectives. Whilst at the objective(s) you grind away and force 1-3 extra losses per turn to the average MEQ-list. By the scale of killing efficiency this isn´t impressive, no.

Yet, by just doing the thing you want to do anyway you are ticking in VP (approaching the benchmark), there´s no quarters tax from Engage and you can easily solve Scramble plus as third secondary pick whatever Purge suits the opponent of the day. The point is that it´s a neat fitting piece of a puzzle you already started with.

Will Fear and Terror always be the right pick? No it wont. But as a TAC strategy it may be a decent bet.

I think this is the thing I like the most about the whole freakshow setup now. The freakshow benefits are almost extras. I'm gonna spend what... thirty five points on PGLs and grisly trophies army wide that I might have skipped had I not built into freakshow? And both my main subfactions - poisoned tongue and dark creed - are both getting major benefits now BESIDES their involvement in the freakshow setup. +1 to hit on my Talos and my hex/ossefactor squads, and poisoned tongue you're mostly going into for the splinter boys. Honestly, I spent a while working over options, and I'll probably just skip the Trophy Takers trait on my wyches - it's just unnecessary buy in, I'll just run them as Cursed Blade like I was originally going to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example, another variation on the freakshow setup I'm looking into:

Realspace Raid brigade detachment. Poisoned Tongue, Cult of the Cursed Blade, Coven of the Dark Creed

Archon (Hatred Eternal, Djinn Blade)
Succubus (Shardnet+Impaler, Precision Blows)
Haemonculus (Fear Incarnate)
Drazar

5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle
5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle
5x Wracks, Ossefactor+Hexrifle
10x Kabalites, Blaster, PGL, Splinter Rifle
10x Kabalites, Blaster, PGL, Splinter Rifle
10x Wyches, Razorflails, Shardnet+Impaler, Hydra Gauntlets

5x Incubi
5x Mandrakes
5x Mandrakes

Talos, Heat Lances, Cleavers
Talos, Heat Lances, Cleavers
Cronos, Vortex

5x Hellions, PGL
5x Hellions, PGL
5x Hellions

Raider, Dark Lance, Splinter Racks, PGL
Raider, Dark Lance, Splinter Racks, PGL
Raider, Dark Lance, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Venom, Grisly Trophies

Scotsman, one minor nitpick-going from hitting on a 3+ to a 4+ is a 25% penalty, not 17%. Since before, you were hitting on four sides of the die, now you're hitting on three sides of the die.

Otherwise, excellent post!

Tyel wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

If you are worried about hitting on 4s, you can always take Blasters.

I'm always kind of shocked at how turned off players get by a simple 4+ to hit. For multiple editions now folks are taking haywire blaster which always wound their preferred target on a 4+ with a small amount of damage. Just look at it as the reversing of dice rolls. A heatlance is now S8 -4 D6+2 damage and a dark lance S8 -4 D3+3 damage, so your wounding most of it's preferred targets on 2's or 3's so yea it is literally just reversing the order of rolling in their case. Yet the damage is WAY higher now with min 3 max 8 and min 4 max 6. Sure you can take a blaster and hit and wound on 3's but your damage is 1-6. It's way better now because there is an actual debate or reason to take any of the choices instead of one obvious one. Also consider the fact that things like cloud of flies, miasma, lightning fast reactions, mirage launchers, smoke screen, hard to hit or dense cover all only ever amount to -1 lol. It's really not bad at all to begin with, just something psychological about the first roll in the attack sequence, it gets more attention because its the first hurdle.

Scactha wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

(Disclaimer: not a Drukhari player since the last millennia, but anyway.)

Whilst you´re right on the aspect you are referring to, that´s not what the question was about. You are talking about if there´s a point in Freakshow strategy for killing stuff. The question is if Fear and Terror will pay off enough VP for the strategy. That´s a different thing because of the lower benchmark. Looking at Goonhammers data, 7+ secondary VP is good. Hence that´s the benchmark imo.

I believe Fear and Terror is part of a grander strategy. Like this; the Freakshow thrives on close proximity to the enemy, which means close range, which means objective play. So you want to force engagement by contesting objectives. Whilst at the objective(s) you grind away and force 1-3 extra losses per turn to the average MEQ-list. By the scale of killing efficiency this isn´t impressive, no.

Yet, by just doing the thing you want to do anyway you are ticking in VP (approaching the benchmark), there´s no quarters tax from Engage and you can easily solve Scramble plus as third secondary pick whatever Purge suits the opponent of the day. The point is that it´s a neat fitting piece of a puzzle you already started with.

Will Fear and Terror always be the right pick? No it wont. But as a TAC strategy it may be a decent bet.

That is interesting, and with very limited playing in 9th my brain always looks at attrition (killing) at first and it's when I am playing more frequently that the objective problem solving part of my mind lights up.

That does look like a very promising however I am not entirely sold yet. Seems like a grind to gain many points from marines if I am honest, and the deathwing variety are flat immune to morale are they not?

I'll definitely give it a whirl myself whenever I can get a game in. I think I am more excited for liquifiers not being garbage again, I've waited since 5th for them to turn around, so I am still a bit drawn to dark tech. Dark creed is definitely looking much stronger though.

Triptch Whip: +3A, Poison 2+ AP-3 D2
Dancer's Edge: (Master succubus) S+2, AP-4, D2, invulns cant be taken against wounds of 6
Blood Glaive: (Red Grief), S+2 AP-3 D3
Relic Glaive: (Strife) S+2, AP-5, D2, +1 to wound vs ld8+, 1MW if you don't target models with LD8+
Relic Agonizer: (Strife) Select one model who can't fall back
Garland of Spite (Strife): Select one enemy model and halve its attacks as well as autohit it
Dark Lotus Toxin: (Strife), +1S and +1D to all weapons on model
Phial Bouquet: (Strife) 1d6 random drug each round
Traitors Embrace: (Cursed Blade), if killed in melee 2+ to deal 3+d3mw

Breaking down the succubus relics, the generic of the Triptch Whip offers a high baseline. A Triptch Whip succubus is more effective against any target she has any business fighting by a wide margin: Assuming +A drugs 6.94 GEQ 5.78 MEQ 2.31 TEQ (all expressed as Killed Models) 6.94 CEQ (Marine Captain Equivalent 4++ multiwound character, expressed as Unsaved Wounds)

The Dancer's Edge offers one capability that almost no other relic setup offers: A succubus that can threaten vehicles. A Cult of the Cursed Blade succubus with Strength drugs and Dancers Edge/Blast Pistol deals 6.94 unsaved wounds vs a t7 3+ target. 4.86 GEQ 4.02 MEQ 1.802 TEQ 5.41 CEQ. Theoretically the strife glaive can perform a similar function but it's dependent on the +1 to wound getting it to 4+ vs vehicle targets. Some vehicles (Space Marine, Necron, Knights, etc) are LD8+ but others (Eldar, Guard, Ork) are not.

Grave Lotus on a Glaive/Blast Pistol succubus with strength drugs get close (6.66 wounds vs t7 3+) if you're in Strife and you don't want to be dependent on your opponent having ld8 vehicle targets. Note that (just going off of the secondhand leaks) grave lotus affects the strength and damage of the blast pistol as well, which is why that one is able to come close. If grave lotus is only on melee weaponry its always better to go for the Strife Relic Glaive.

A note on warlord traits: Precision Blows>Quicksilver Fighter. The mortal wounds not only provide better results with most weaponry.
Triptch Whip Quicksilver Fighter: 8.32 GEQ 6.94 MEQ 2.77 TEQ 8.33 CEQ
Triptch Whip Precision Blows: 8.95 GEQ 6.32 MEQ 2.98 TEQ 8.95 CEQ

Blood Glaive with Precision is particularly solid because it is D3 and you get a blast pistol: 7.37 GEQ 5.06 MEQ 3.95 TEQ 8.58 CEQ. D3 makes it a particular sweet spot for murdering elite infantry expressed as TEQ (3W 5++ infantry)

If you decide to go for one of the defensive/utility based relics, of which the only ones that are really worthwhile are the Garland (A powerful pick against targets like super pumped up named characters, knights, etc) and the Traitors Embrace, your best pick appears to be a Shardnet+Impaler with +strength drugs. Without accounting for any warlord trait (Precision is still best for damage) you're looking at: 3.833 GEQ 2.91 MEQ 0.73 TEQ 2.91 CEQ

Just For Fun: WHAT KIND OF DRUGS WERE THEY DENNY?
The most optimal druggubus is roll 2 times randomly on the table, take the stimm addict trait, use the Stimulant Innovators custom cult, and hand her that Dancer's Edge so she's got a weapon that's actually using her core strength stat. You do re-roll results of 6 thankfully on stimm addict so you're slightly less likely to end up with one of the two results you don't want (+1BS +1LD) so you are very likely to be able to pop Hyperstimm Backlash and have a succubus with +2S +2A +2T +4" move. with 5 mostly random drug effects you're likely to have at least one of the +WS/+BS womp womps but who cares.

Archon
Parasite's kiss: 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-2 D2, regain +1 wound for each model destroyed
Djinn Blade: S+1 AP-3 D3, +2A, roll a d6 each time you fight on a 1 suffer a mortal.
Soul Seeker: 18" pistol 2 poison 2+ AP-2 Dd3, ignore look out sir, no cover.
Animus Vitae: Essentially 2+ to grant +1 to hit on turn 2 instead of turn 3 for your turn 2 tempo list
Helm of Spite: Bearer can DTW, if they succeed the psyker takes a perils
Obsidian Veil: 4++
Armor of Misery: 3+sv, -1 to hit
Writ of living muse (black heart): rr 1s to wound kabal CORE, blades for hire if in RSR.
Soulhelm (Master archon): -1 to hit, 5+ FNP

The Archon is basically a similar game to the succubus with a more nebulous aim: Can you get better usage out of your relic/trait combo than you can get by running djinn blade/blast pistol with eternal hatred?

Because here's the thing: The Djinn Blade/Blast Pistol Eternal Hatred archon is a MONSTER.
5.22 GEQ, 5.22 MEQ, 3.47 TEQ, 7.122 CEQ
11.5 unsaved wounds vs T7 3+

So right off the bat: both pistol weapons reduce his damage swapping the Blade for a Huskblade. If you're running a pure shooty list, Parasites Kiss might be worthwhile to bring in a Venom lets say if the archon is rolling with a Shredder squad of Poisoned Tongue kabalites, you're not bringing any Incubi you're not bringing a Court so you just want your archon to be shooty, that's fine.

Animus Vitae is an interesting option IMO if youre running a list with a lot of turn 2 tempo melee units (Grotesques, Wyches in transports, Incubi/drazar in transport, hellions etc. You huck it out turn 2, and you get the turn 3 eager to flay for your big damage punch turn 2. Across your whole army, it's easy for +1WS to outclass the admittedly good damage the archon can be putting out. Helm of spite is similarly fine in a psyker heavy meta, we're familiar with what that brings to the table at this point.

All defensive relics IMO are a waste of time. The archon is not going to survive a round of attacks with a 3+ and -1 to hit or a 4++ post-shadowfield or a -1 5+FNP he wouldn't have survived before, he's a squishy T3 W5 character. 40k is a game of rocket tag, the 2++ is a better means to not die unexpectedly than most characters pack and gives the archon an unexpected edge in many matchups he has no business winning as a 90pt model, I'd say stick with that and give him the absurd offense that Hatred+Djinn Blade brings.

And then lastly there's the Writ, which I think makes for the only real viable 'support archon' setup where you just take a cheapo weapon, the writ, labyrinthine cunning and you make sure he's standing on the battlefield at the start of the game, ideally in a RSR detachment in range of some Talos for him to buff the shooting of and maybe with some extra scourges to drop down turn 2 and get reroll 1s to hit and wound from him.

Haemonculus:
Spirit Sting (Dark Creed): 12"r pistol 3 poison 2+ AP-3 d1, no invuln saves
Vexator Mask (Prophets of FLesh): No overwatch, select one enemy unit when fighting to fight last.
Nightmare Doll: Haemonculus gets 4+fnp instead of 5+
Flensing Blade (Co12): S: user poison 2+, AP-2 Dd3, D3 vs characters
Poisoners Ampoule (master haemie): Once per battle enemy unit within 9" takes d3 mortals on 2+, cant give auras, cant receive auras.


Haemie definitely has the most oddball list and I'd rate him as the one of the three I'd be most likely to leave relic-less. He doesn't get to be a "plus one" with Alliance of Agony when it comes to relics, so unless you've got a real good plan for them, I think probably leave that at home and give the relics to the two characters who can use them to become crazy damage factories.

Nightmare Doll is totally useless (RIP my puppetmaster Haemonculus scratchbuild who I usually ran as having it) Spirit Sting is cute but meh, Poisoners Ampoule seems pretty good in concept but realistically it'll be turn 3 probably before it gets used.

Vex Mask used to be good when Overwatch was a real thing in 8th, in 9th I think it's not a game changer, if your running PoF you've got extremely good odds that your sole HQ is going to be Urien so its kind of unlikely to see play anyway.

The only one I think 'wow, that meaningfully changes the game for the haemonculus" is the flensing blade, which makes him a fairly talented character disembowler. I'd usually go for this one because (in my experience anyway) my haemonculus is the one character who almost always gets multiple rounds of combat unmurderized because he's rolling with a big gang of lumpy lads my opponent tends to be far more concerned with. As characters go the haemie is built like a brick gak so when people do target him, they often end up disappointed.

For a hilarious MW fishing machine, look no further than the Precision Blows + DLT + Razorflails Cult of Strife Succubus.

The fact that you can run it alongside a TWip toting Succubus is just gravy.

Sterling191 wrote:
For a hilarious MW fishing machine, look no further than the Precision Blows + DLT + Razorflails Cult of Strife Succubus.

The fact that you can run it alongside a TWip toting Succubus is just gravy.

The thing is because of how Precision Blows works now, the best MW fisher technically is Grave Lotus Razorflails with +1A drugs. 16A with D2 to try and get your MWs on.

@the_scotsman another excellent rundown.

If we end up starting a new thread, I'd highly suggest that the first however-many posts are dedicated to your guides/reviews.


Incidentally, I was going to correct you that the Soul Seeker also ignores LoS . . . then I checked and discovered it no longer ignores LoS. Because apparently it wasn't weak enough already.

Seriously, what the hell, GW? You had a relic no one took, in a subfaction no one ever played, and you decided that you needed to nerf it anyway (at the same time that similar weapons are getting significant buffs - like the Parasite's Kiss getting a +50% buff to its output).

And yes, I am bitter about this. I was one of the only people who ever used the damn thing in 8th. I loved the idea of a weapon you couldn't hide from but in practise it was just too weak and unreliable. And GW responded by making it even worse. Outstanding.


Anyway, my personal bitterness notwithstanding, I agree with your overall assessment. Only thing I'd add is that, if you don't plan to take a Coven-specific artefact on a Haemonculus, it seems like he'd be an excellent candidate for the Helm of Spite.

As far as the Archon goes, it's hard to justify anything outside of the Djin Blade or Writ. Maybe Parasite's Kiss but that's about it.

To be honest, I think the artefacts are by far the most disappointing aspect of the new book. Especially those of the Archon. And so many of our artefacts just feel extremely lacklustre, with many apparently taking no account of the other changes made to the codex.

I mean, look at the artefacts (and the warlord traits, for that matter) PT, OR and FS get. Would you take any of them over the generic ones or the BH ones?

FS gets a 4++ save, but every Archon will get a 5++ save from turn 4 (turn 3 for BH) by default anyway. Meanwhile, OR gets a 3+ save with -1 to hit in melee. It's weird that this, too, is unchanged when the Archon's base save has improved to 4+.

There's also the problem that if you take a defensive relic, your Archon probably won't be worth protecting in the first place (as all the best melee weapons and support abilities are tied to other artefacts). Plus, if you really, really want to go defensive, I'm pretty sure both of the above are completely outclassed by the Soulhelm.


I think the Succubus and Haemonculus both get off a bit better in this department, especially the former (probably helped by the fact that she can be made very good at her function using only basic equipment, so she doesn't rely on artefacts in the same way the Archon does). But the overall selection still feels more than a little lacking, with each model having just 3-4 generic artefacts to pick from. Quite frankly, it seems we got a big piece of artwork in the artefact section to try and disguise just how bare-bones our selection actually is.

Sorry for going on a bit of a rant there. Just something that's already really standing out to me as I try to consider lists and HQ builds.

I think you can hand him a pistol if hes just a tax archon in a shooty list, give him the writ, or hand him the Orb Of 2+ WS in Turn 2.

The haemie is definitely the best candidate for the hat of angry. Hes the most likely to be running around on the board.

Honestly I think the archon has the most interesting relic selection of the three. The succubus basically just has weapons...I mean...three slightly different glaives? My own personal favorite the traitors embrace just seems dumb because why use that when an optimal weapon relic setup just allows her to dumpster on an opponent anyway.

The archon can at least be built with a safeish ranged weapon, a melee beatstick, an alpha strike buff item, and a safe buff item

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/797116.page#11086061


New topic unless mods says otherwise

 Red Corsair wrote:

Tyel wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

If you are worried about hitting on 4s, you can always take Blasters.

I'm always kind of shocked at how turned off players get by a simple 4+ to hit. For multiple editions now folks are taking haywire blaster which always wound their preferred target on a 4+ with a small amount of damage. Just look at it as the reversing of dice rolls. A heatlance is now S8 -4 D6+2 damage and a dark lance S8 -4 D3+3 damage, so your wounding most of it's preferred targets on 2's or 3's so yea it is literally just reversing the order of rolling in their case. Yet the damage is WAY higher now with min 3 max 8 and min 4 max 6. Sure you can take a blaster and hit and wound on 3's but your damage is 1-6. It's way better now because there is an actual debate or reason to take any of the choices instead of one obvious one. Also consider the fact that things like cloud of flies, miasma, lightning fast reactions, mirage launchers, smoke screen, hard to hit or dense cover all only ever amount to -1 lol. It's really not bad at all to begin with, just something psychological about the first roll in the attack sequence, it gets more attention because its the first hurdle.

Or, maybe my problem stems from the fact that I have armies that hit on 4+ often and I know exactly how unreliable that can be. I'm not a first year player who doesn't understand the game mechanics. I simply asked a question, which was answered. I still think its counter intuitive to give a highly mobile unit almost all heavy choices but I figured I'd ask the powers that be why it ended up feeling better without digging through all the information personally. It's not a mental hurdle, it was a simple question. I thank scotsman for doing the math and laying it out well for me, it was appreciated.

I'm always kind of shocked how someone has to take a simple question and turn it into the person asking it is somehow mentally challenged. Sorry I asked another human for their feedback. Now, if that wasn't the nature of what felt like a dig, I apologize but treating someone as if they are slow or prone to some kind of mental superstition because 4+ bad!, is really a poor way to speak to someone. Especially if I had been a player who had issues and couldn't help it. The manner in which you treat someone is kind of important when they think they are talking to kindred spirits, even on the net.

AngryAngel80, Can't say for certain but I didn't read what Red Corsair said as being an attack on you at all. He generalized his statement about people being turned off by -1 to hit (which is true, LOTS of people are very turned off by -1 to hit) and he explained the psychology behind it a bit. Just my opinion but I really don't feel this was in any way an attack on you Angel.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
AngryAngel80, Can't say for certain but I didn't read what Red Corsair said as being an attack on you at all. He generalized his statement about people being turned off by -1 to hit (which is true, LOTS of people are very turned off by -1 to hit) and he explained the psychology behind it a bit. Just my opinion but I really don't feel this was in any way an attack on you Angel.

^yup very much this.

Didn't mean to touch a nerve just having a fun conversation as I noticed this sentiment often with the majority of players, sorry if you felt attacked but even reading it back I feel like I didn't say anything controversial and I didn't single anyone out.