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the_scotsman wrote:
Theoretically there's not a limit on the number of models you can pain syphon in a turn though, isn't there? like if you get a cronos into a squad of chaos cultists or guardsmen turn 3+, theoretically you could heal the last HP on a talos, resurrect a talos with 1hp, and then heal him up to 2, right? It's every time he eats a model.

I believe so, which is hilarious and I want it to be a thing but he has 4 attacks at WS4+

They should have made his tentacles, pick one for the fight phase double attacks or flat 2 damage, and both pain engines should have WS3+ BS3+ IMO

They also could have let his ranged attacks also work to heal.

Anyway, I am aware the Cronos is still bad to mediocre, I dont agree with Skari that he's an autoinclude at all, I just don't think I'll be embarrassed to put him on the table anymore, I'll just cheerfully plop him down next to my 3 talos, and he can be my happy plaid bagpipe monster where I explain to my opponent that every ability he has is due to the fact that he is an ambulatory set of bagpipes.

Soul siphon? The dark eldar love pain, so they just love bagpipes. The flamer attack? Got too close to the bagpipes. Spirit probe? I'm playing amazing grace as my talos charge in, they're inspired as hell now.

Regarding the Cronos, might he be worth it in Dark Technomancers?

Thinking primarily for his relatively low cost and various ranged weapons.

the_scotsman wrote:
Anyway, I am aware the Cronos is still bad to mediocre, I dont agree with Skari that he's an autoinclude at all, I just don't think I'll be embarrassed to put him on the table anymore, I'll just cheerfully plop him down next to my 3 talos, and he can be my happy plaid bagpipe monster where I explain to my opponent that every ability he has is due to the fact that he is an ambulatory set of bagpipes.

Soul siphon? The dark eldar love pain, so they just love bagpipes. The flamer attack? Got too close to the bagpipes. Spirit probe? I'm playing amazing grace as my talos charge in, they're inspired as hell now.

Please tell me you've modelled your Cronos this way.

Oh he's just painted funny. I felt like the fluted back spikeys and the big tube sticking out of the spirit probe made him look like a bagpipe so I painted his carapace green plaid.

Dark Tech a perfectly fine subfaction for him, but he's just got the one little weeny flamer weapon. But DT definitely has a reason to want to bring a full squad of 5 liquifier grots in a raider, who synergize nicely with the cronos popping off his strat.

5 DT liquifier grots are gonna kill SOMETHING turn 2, almost guaranteed, so you might as well make sure they have a 5++ and ld immunity going into the next turn when your opponent gets a crack at them.


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Army setup that I just realized I had the models for so I absolutely have to try:

-Custom cult trait test of skill+experimental concoctions (whatever the roll a d3 get a bonus drug one is called)

-take tons of wyches loaded into raiders and hellions

-roll 2 randomly for the combat drugs of every single one of your units

-pop experimental concoctions and use hyperstimm backlash on whichever one of your units got the best roll on Statline Yahtzee

lol yea thats actually pretty funny. I love all the random things that probably fell under the design radar. Like the 18 attack succubus lol

Has anyone seen the grot data slate? My only concern is what weapon you are forced to drop in order to take the liquifier. Not sure I love the idea of losing the cleaver for it. Hopefully they changed that from the old book.

Same goes for the succubus. Is she forced into taking the glaive in order to take a blast pistol? I hated that as I generally run with the triptich whip and I doubt thats changing now that they buffed the crap out of the whip.


Has anyone found a fun loadout for a haemi yet?

So far I have seen plenty of archons ans succubi but nothing really mean for a haemi.

 Red Corsair wrote:
lol yea thats actually pretty funny. I love all the random things that probably fell under the design radar. Like the 18 attack succubus lol

Has anyone seen the grot data slate? My only concern is what weapon you are forced to drop in order to take the liquifier. Not sure I love the idea of losing the cleaver for it. Hopefully they changed that from the old book.

Same goes for the succubus. Is she forced into taking the glaive in order to take a blast pistol? I hated that as I generally run with the triptich whip and I doubt thats changing now that they buffed the crap out of the whip.

Oh damn, I didn't think to check. Yeah, if you're swapping the cleaver for the liquifier that's a whole lot less useful (though D2 liquifiers with +1 to wound are still gonna be fire in dark tech)

I'm guessing since that's the way the model gets put together, you still have to swap the cleaver for the liquifier. That sucks, even if the grot's liquifier is only 5 vs 10 for Wracks.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Same goes for the succubus. Is she forced into taking the glaive in order to take a blast pistol?

Sadly, yeah.

If you want any sort of pistol it's Glaive or nothing.

It's one of those "This is how the model is built and by god we're sticking to it!" issues.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Has anyone found a fun loadout for a haemi yet?

I mean, he's only got the one.

Being unable to tweak wargear makes the Hammy a whole lot less creative. They're sadly largely just buff/debuff sticks now.

I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

Admittedly, a lot fewer of his relics, traits and subfaction rules revolve around straight up combat now. You can probably make him fairly killy with Coven of 12 though. They've got a relic that makes his scissors d3 damage, he does d3MWs with his injector, and they have a strat to drop an extra d3mws after he consolidates.

Like was anyone really making beautiful music with Venom Blades, Power Swords, Agonizers, Flesh Gauntlets and...that other thing I always forget the name of that is some kind of glove with bad stats on the haemie?

I don't have the links to the codex images anymore so wasn't sure if the coven of 12 still had the autopsy tools from hell as a relic.

Too bad they didn't give the haemi a one time use ichor injector that just emptied his sump into someone lol

Also if anyone still has a solid link to the codex leaks and wants to PM me I'd be grateful and probably more useful to the discussion lol.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

Admittedly, a lot fewer of his relics, traits and subfaction rules revolve around straight up combat now. You can probably make him fairly killy with Coven of 12 though. They've got a relic that makes his scissors d3 damage, he does d3MWs with his injector, and they have a strat to drop an extra d3mws after he consolidates.

Like was anyone really making beautiful music with Venom Blades, Power Swords, Agonizers, Flesh Gauntlets and...that other thing I always forget the name of that is some kind of glove with bad stats on the haemie?

I thought the Hammy injector is now just a flat 1, with the Talos one being d3? And the consolidation mortals are only playable against characters IIRC.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't have the links to the codex images anymore so wasn't sure if the coven of 12 still had the autopsy tools from hell as a relic.

Too bad they didn't give the haemi a one time use ichor injector that just emptied his sump into someone lol

Also if anyone still has a solid link to the codex leaks and wants to PM me I'd be grateful and probably more useful to the discussion lol.

Yeah, they do. I can hit you up when I get back to my home computer.

Flensing Blade still d3d and still flat 3 vs characters, though I forget its exact rules.

Spirit Sting out of dark creed also makes a haemie a decent character hunter. It ignores invulnerable saves now.

Outside of those two, there's not really a ton you can do to make them super crazy fighters.

It is worth noting that their baseline dueling capabilities are pretty good. Basic haemonculus does 2.25 unsaved wounds vs a marine captain. Basic succubus with the best weapon (shardnet+impaler) does 1.66 and basic huskblade archon does 1.38.


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Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

Admittedly, a lot fewer of his relics, traits and subfaction rules revolve around straight up combat now. You can probably make him fairly killy with Coven of 12 though. They've got a relic that makes his scissors d3 damage, he does d3MWs with his injector, and they have a strat to drop an extra d3mws after he consolidates.

Like was anyone really making beautiful music with Venom Blades, Power Swords, Agonizers, Flesh Gauntlets and...that other thing I always forget the name of that is some kind of glove with bad stats on the haemie?

I thought the Hammy injector is now just a flat 1, with the Talos one being d3? And the consolidation mortals are only playable against characters IIRC.

Yep, that's true, keep mixing the haemy injector up with the talos injector.

There's not a whole lot you can do to make the haemie that crazy vs infantry, even less you can get him to kill vehicles (not like he's ever been able to do that) but you can give him a few tricks vs characters.

Thanks scottsman, appreciate the info inks when you can get to it.

So the coven of 12 guy is interesting, I thought I read somewhere that you could add +1 damage to the haemi somehow, so I figured the 6 attacks with the scissor hand might be decentish.

Don't expect a whole lot from the guy, I used to prefer using mine as gun platforms so it looks like maybe dark creed is my only option outside him just being tougher then 2 dollar steak.

A really tough dink that is bringing wracks back constantly is still very strong, also great that they can heal, that was also on my wish list so really he is in a fitting spot now. I'll just need to get all my hex rifles on wracks. Speaking of which, it's kind of min blowing that the 30 I have might not be enough for certain lists I'd like to take. Doubt I'll buy any more though, that kit was cancer to clean, build and paint.

Regarding the Haemonculus, do you think there's a good way to make use of the return-from-death ability, beyond just having it as insurance?

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean most of the fun in the various succubus loadouts that are actually good are reliant on traits and relics. The haemie has less options in that arena, but really the only thing he meaningfully lost access to was the ec whip. He's still got a sizable chunk of the wargear list he used to have...he just gets all of it all the time now.

I do very much miss the option to take a Hexrifle or Liquifier Gun on him.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I don't have the links to the codex images anymore so wasn't sure if the coven of 12 still had the autopsy tools from hell as a relic.

Too bad they didn't give the haemi a one time use ichor injector that just emptied his sump into someone lol

Also if anyone still has a solid link to the codex leaks and wants to PM me I'd be grateful and probably more useful to the discussion lol.

Yeah, they do. I can hit you up when I get back to my home computer.

If you're willing, I'd also be extremely grateful to see the codex leaks again.

the_scotsman wrote:

It is worth noting that their baseline dueling capabilities are pretty good. Basic haemonculus does 2.25 unsaved wounds vs a marine captain. Basic succubus with the best weapon (shardnet+impaler) does 1.66 and basic huskblade archon does 1.38.

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

 vipoid wrote:

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

I think it's more a statement about how abysmal the default Huskblade is. "Downgrade" him to a venom blade and he does about twice as well I believe (havent run the numbers, just looking at die shifts between the two weapons)

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

I think it's more a statement about how abysmal the default Huskblade is. "Downgrade" him to a venom blade and he does about twice as well I believe (havent run the numbers, just looking at die shifts between the two weapons)

It looks that way. You either go Huskblade to get a Djinn Blade, or you go Venom Blade which seems decent. With the latter you could at a pinch use the anti vehicle poison stratagem.

If you have the patience to sift through it, there's a video of the entire codex on YT: https://youtu.be/VMbTaeGrwr0

Also am i reading this right in that thw stimm addict WT says roll 2 additional dice when determining combat drugs, so you could in theory roll two dice initially, then roll another two dice and benefit from 4 combat drugs at once? Precision blows still seems like it would be better but.. +1 A, Str, T +2" move is quite appealing, even if you get the +1WS rolled that at least means anyone's -1 to hit aura is cancelled out too?

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

That's quite the statement about the Archon, isn't it?

I think it's more a statement about how abysmal the default Huskblade is. "Downgrade" him to a venom blade and he does about twice as well I believe (havent run the numbers, just looking at die shifts between the two weapons)

I've done the numbers against basic marines and all his weapons are equally abysmal.

Though it might interest you to know that the Huskblade is actually his best weapon, tied with the PT Agoniser.

The archon is definitely gak at combat unless you give him the one hyper obvious warlord trait that casually doubles his damage, yes.

the_scotsman wrote:
The archon is definitely gak at combat unless you give him the one hyper obvious warlord trait that casually doubles his damage, yes.

Which amusingly also makes a blast pistol (or regular Blaster if you're playing with folks who dont mind Legends) quite reliable since it's now full hits *and* wounds.

 vipoid wrote:

I've done the numbers against basic marines and all his weapons are equally abysmal.

Though it might interest you to know that the Huskblade is actually his best weapon, tied with the PT Agoniser.

You're right, I completely spaced on the huskblade going to flat D2. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'm not sure you'd take characters if you can't give them warlord traits/relics.

To a degree you could say that's sad - but you can, so I'm not really sure its a problem.

Quick question, say I wanted to take two master succubus for two squads of blood brides...if I both my detachments have a custom obsession, as long as the combination of abilities is different they would be considered a different cult?

I'm pretty sure there's precedence somewhere that if the obsession abilities chosen were the same they would be considered the same they'd be considered the same cult even if I named them differently.

Octovol wrote:
Quick question, say I wanted to take two master succubus for two squads of blood brides...if I both my detachments have a custom obsession, as long as the combination of abilities is different they would be considered a different cult?

I'm pretty sure there's precedence somewhere that if the obsession abilities chosen were the same they would be considered the same they'd be considered the same cult even if I named them differently.

Im not seeing anything in my codex that actually specifies that, but you'd have to track buffs separately for them. Like "Trophy Takers/Slashing Impact cult A" would not be able to buff "Trophy Takers/Slashing Impact Cult B".

otherwise, it seems you are free to go nuts with that s'il vous voulez.

Tyel wrote:
I'm not sure you'd take characters if you can't give them warlord traits/relics.

The problem isn't that you wouldn't otherwise give the Archon traits/relics. The problem is the opportunity cost of doing so.

Traits and relics are 1-per-model each and are mutually exclusive by definition.

Other HQs - especially those meant for melee combat - have good melee weapons by default (e.g. SM captains have power fists, thunder hammers and relic blades). Hence, they can use their relics and traits to improve other areas without completely sacrificing their melee ability.

However, if an Archon wants to do this then they basically have to give up their melee potential entirely. This seems like exceptionally poor design.


If you want a different example (since people might argue that SM's are GW's favourite and so get the best toys), take instead the Canoness. Like the Archon, she can take a Power Sword. However, she can also take a Blessed Blade (S+2, AP-3 D1d3). Literally a Huskblade but with +2S, better AP and more variable damage.

The closest non-Relic weapon an Archon can get to that profile is a Power Sword with the Consummate Weaponmaster warlord trait... and it's still worse than the Blessed Blade.

But even if it's equivalent, the Archon is now using a Warlord Trait to get the same weapon that a Canoness can take as standard.

And bear in mind that the Archon is meant to be a far more melee-oriented character than the Canoness.

The reason this frustrates me is that most other characters start off competent in their basic roles (or can be made such with basic wargear). Hence, I can freely take some of the more fun relics and traits, without compromising their core function. In contrast, the Archon is terrible even at his core function unless you give him traits and relics.

More than anything, I just don't understand the reasoning behind this. The Huskblade was already weak by the standards of comparable weapons, yet it actually got nerfed even harder, to the point where its only function is to be swapped out for one specific relic.

I dunno, I guess honestly I'm just not all that interested in some doofy "cause d3 mortal wounds to a thing within 2" on a roll of a 5+ once per game on a tuesday" or the old classic "a pistol, but like, I dunno, damage 2?" relic, and we get so many relics and warlord traits for the cost of a couple CP, you hand me a character who can be 100pts with 10 melee attacks...I'm gonna give him a melee weapon relic probably 99 times out of 100.

Ok old pals, it was said in the rumors I believe how the Scourges changing most of their fire on the move weapons to heavy when they can't avoid move and shoot penalty to heavy somehow makes them do more damage.

I need some veteran advice as to why that is true as to me that feels like a net gain of bad. What am I missing ?

I ask because I love the models so in my DE list I use them but this feels an awful lot like it is counter intuitive to their design of highly mobile to place most all their weapons as heavy.

They messed up a little with the Scourges.

Anyway, they are a good Scramblers unit going stock Shardcarbines, 60pts for a flying fast unit that can deepstrike and that now they are 5++ is just fine.

Also they can start static on the board with heavy weaponry and be accompanied by an Archon in a Realspace Raid.

Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

 Red Corsair wrote:
The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

(Disclaimer: not a Drukhari player since the last millennia, but anyway.)

Whilst you´re right on the aspect you are referring to, that´s not what the question was about. You are talking about if there´s a point in Freakshow strategy for killing stuff. The question is if Fear and Terror will pay off enough VP for the strategy. That´s a different thing because of the lower benchmark. Looking at Goonhammers data, 7+ secondary VP is good. Hence that´s the benchmark imo.

I believe Fear and Terror is part of a grander strategy. Like this; the Freakshow thrives on close proximity to the enemy, which means close range, which means objective play. So you want to force engagement by contesting objectives. Whilst at the objective(s) you grind away and force 1-3 extra losses per turn to the average MEQ-list. By the scale of killing efficiency this isn´t impressive, no.

Yet, by just doing the thing you want to do anyway you are ticking in VP (approaching the benchmark), there´s no quarters tax from Engage and you can easily solve Scramble plus as third secondary pick whatever Purge suits the opponent of the day. The point is that it´s a neat fitting piece of a puzzle you already started with.

Will Fear and Terror always be the right pick? No it wont. But as a TAC strategy it may be a decent bet.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well I guess it makes them about the same for lance caddies then but I was wondering if I was missing something.

If you are worried about hitting on 4s, you can always take Blasters.