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Is it that bad though? Are any armies retaining any strategems that allow them to gain a command point back?

But let's say we weren't comparing this strategem just to the old Agents of Vect strategem and were just comparing it to every one out there. This strategem costs 0CP, so thats awesome, its just a free buff.

You use it the first time your opponent rerolls something, the rest of the game, their 1CP reroll now costs 2 CP. That's pretty huge. And you didn't have to spend any CP to do that to them.

I played Flayed Skull the whole of 8th, so never got to use AoV.....I guess that won't change now, particularly with Poison Tongue looking a bit good.

 Denegaar wrote:
I think old Vect was pretty unfair, and really frustrating when rolled a 1. Almost never used it, I will use this one every game I play Black Heart.

Of course is not that strong.

In double DT wrack venom spam list with 1 patrol for 2 Ravagers and Vect. You basically only use CP on Vect and maybe lightning fast on a Ravager, sometimes to re-roll a dice too. You had lots of CP to use and could use Vect 2-3x a game.

There are some stratagems in the game that are literally insane compare to vect, so stopping those stratagems (and your opponents knows you will) changes the entire game flow and feeling, it was not only mental war game but also a good tactical one.

This new stratagem is worthless at both, the opponent will just spend their CP a bit more wisely and thats it. Most stratagems that are spammed and strong are not even used every game other than 3, Lightning fast, Prismatic Blur (Quins +1 invul), and Single-Minded Annihilation (nids shoot twice). Most others are 2-3x per game. Nids always here CP fine, all 3 Eldar can use Lightning and Quins can use Blur so really its only good against Aeldari and that makes it feel even worst.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I think old Vect was pretty unfair, and really frustrating when rolled a 1. Almost never used it, I will use this one every game I play Black Heart.

Of course is not that strong.

In double DT wrack venom spam list with 1 patrol for 2 Ravagers and Vect. You basically only use CP on Vect and maybe lightning fast on a Ravager, sometimes to re-roll a dice too. You had lots of CP to use and could use Vect 2-3x a game.

There are some stratagems in the game that are literally insane compare to vect, so stopping those stratagems (and your opponents knows you will) changes the entire game flow and feeling, it was not only mental war game but also a good tactical one.

This new stratagem is worthless at both, the opponent will just spend their CP a bit more wisely and thats it. Most stratagems that are spammed and strong are not even used every game other than 3, Lightning fast, Prismatic Blur (Quins +1 invul), and Single-Minded Annihilation (nids shoot twice). Most others are 2-3x per game. Nids always here CP fine, all 3 Eldar can use Lightning and Quins can use Blur so really its only good against Aeldari and that makes it feel even worst.

I wish I played in your meta. Transhuman, weapons of the dark ages, veterans of the long war... I could go on. There are some strats that I know I will bear used 3 to 4 times a game. Yeah this new strat isn't going to do much, but if it costs my opponent 3cp then I am happy. Sometimes making them waste cp is part of the game.

Azuza001 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Denegaar wrote:
I think old Vect was pretty unfair, and really frustrating when rolled a 1. Almost never used it, I will use this one every game I play Black Heart.

Of course is not that strong.

In double DT wrack venom spam list with 1 patrol for 2 Ravagers and Vect. You basically only use CP on Vect and maybe lightning fast on a Ravager, sometimes to re-roll a dice too. You had lots of CP to use and could use Vect 2-3x a game.

There are some stratagems in the game that are literally insane compare to vect, so stopping those stratagems (and your opponents knows you will) changes the entire game flow and feeling, it was not only mental war game but also a good tactical one.

This new stratagem is worthless at both, the opponent will just spend their CP a bit more wisely and thats it. Most stratagems that are spammed and strong are not even used every game other than 3, Lightning fast, Prismatic Blur (Quins +1 invul), and Single-Minded Annihilation (nids shoot twice). Most others are 2-3x per game. Nids always here CP fine, all 3 Eldar can use Lightning and Quins can use Blur so really its only good against Aeldari and that makes it feel even worst.

I wish I played in your meta. Transhuman, weapons of the dark ages, veterans of the long war... I could go on. There are some strats that I know I will bear used 3 to 4 times a game. Yeah this new strat isn't going to do much, but if it costs my opponent 3cp then I am happy. Sometimes making them waste cp is part of the game.

I play against Marines literally every week many times new DA and i see Transhuman all the time, against DA its not a stratagem on many units even. You just know you wound on 4+ and don't care, its the stratagems like Release the Lions from Custodes, or Double shoot and Fight from many armies that are 1 time use but extremely strong that are the real problems.

Quins I would use it on Prismatic Blur and then ok he just wouldn't use it much any more and leave 1 unit of skyweavers back and then he would go off and use the other 3-4 insane stratagems that he can move after fighting, +1D, re-roll wounds, etc.. and not care. But if i could Vect this melee deathball from moving 16+" after fighting me so he can be in FnP and -6" to shooting range that would have been much better.

Go against Salamanders, OMG they have some insane Stratagems, theyw ill forgo using Transhuman a couple times to make sure to use some other stratagems.

Or sisters, What will i use it on ow? I guess rets +12" stratagem? I would have Vected their fight twice, now I can not, so i can't leave units anywhere near each other vs sisters anymore otherwise 9 Repentia will kill 2 units now.

If it is a build around stratagem like tyranids have (shoot twice) sealing 5 CP from them hurts a lott.

Transhuman can even be used more then 5 times.

Just downright nuke CP for 0 sounds good to me.

 Niiai wrote:
If it is a build around stratagem like tyranids have (shoot twice) sealing 5 CP from them hurts a lott.

Transhuman can even be used more then 5 times.

Just downright nuke CP for 0 sounds good to me.

But it's weaker even than that, as it does nothing to the first use of the enemy Stratagem.

Confirm Raiders and Venoms +1 transport

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Confirm Raiders and Venoms +1 transport

Yup, I'm super pleased about that

3 Grotesques in a Venom now?

 harlokin wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Confirm Raiders and Venoms +1 transport

Yup, I'm super pleased about that

3 Grotesques in a Venom now?

Sadly no, it says it can not carry Grots, they still can only go into the raider (and tantalus).

Haywire Blasters, Dissies, and Heat Lances all went from Assault to Heavy.

Heat Lances are S8 and d6+2 damage now, but are a mere AP-4.

Haywire Blasters inexplicably went down to S3, gained AP-3 and damage 1d3, and now only score d3 mortals on natural 6's to wound.

Splinter Racks let us double-tap with splinter rifles out to max range.

Chain Snares add 3 melee attacks to the vehicle they're on.

Lelith lost her 3++ but gained a -1 to be hit. Drazhar lost his lethal precision entirely, but all damage aimed his way is -1.

Ichor Injectors just automatically cause D3 Mortal Wounds on a hit now

Talos Gauntlets are flat 3 damage

Twin Liquifier Guns are S4, AP-2, and 12''.

Succubi gained two attacks.

Haemonculi lost an attack, and all customization options, but can heal D3 wounds per turn

Note: haemie ichor injector does 1mw on hit, talos does d3. Talos one is free, seems lije no reason to not bring 1 scalpel+1 injector instead of 2 scalpels


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haemie now makes 2 bonus attacks with his scissors rather than 1.

 harlokin wrote:
Heat Lances are S8 and d6+2 damage now, but are a mere AP-4.

Now that's a massive improvement. I've never used heat lances before, as they were in kind of a weird spot where they had the Damage to be anti-vehicle weapons but not the Strength. Now they wound everything on, at worst, a 4+. And you rarely ever need AP -5 anyway.

Splinter Racks let us double-tap with splinter rifles out to max range.

Chain Snares add 3 melee attacks to the vehicle they're on.

Niiiice. Might start actually taking them, depending on the cost.

Succubi gained two attacks.

That's good. Never made much sense that they had less attacks than an Archon. The big question however is whether they get a weapon with more than 1 Damage. Currently they're piss-poor in character vs. character combat, and hardly live up to their fluff as gladiators.

.

They can still take wych weapons, and I think the shardnet and impaler is gonna be the pick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although there was a buff to gauntlets right?

Urien resurrects on a 2+ after death with d3 wounds remaining. Gives +1 S, T and L to Prophets of Flesh...

He also gained +1W and +1Attack, and the hability to heal units.

It seems that the master succubus and master haemonculus abilities are Lelith and Urien's new powers (the resurrection and the consolidating 6" in any direction)

Master succubus has something that seems similar to the blood glaive as its relic, and a warlord trait that lets you make her Attacks stat equal to all enemy models within 2" - fairly meh all-round if you ask me, but the basic succubus with a shardnet and impaler is looking hot with the +2 attacks.

Master Haemie gets a slightly more interesting relic and trait.

i can see myself taking master archon for the fight twice, and master haemie for the relic and trait, I anticipate there'll be SOMETHING else relic-wise for succus that make taking master succubus unnecessary.

the_scotsman wrote:
It seems that the master succubus and master haemonculus abilities are Lelith and Urien's new powers (the resurrection and the consolidating 6" in any direction)

Master succubus has something that seems similar to the blood glaive as its relic, and a warlord trait that lets you make her Attacks stat equal to all enemy models within 2" - fairly meh all-round if you ask me, but the basic succubus with a shardnet and impaler is looking hot with the +2 attacks.

Master Haemie gets a slightly more interesting relic and trait.

i can see myself taking master archon for the fight twice, and master haemie for the relic and trait, I anticipate there'll be SOMETHING else relic-wise for succus that make taking master succubus unnecessary.

I'm not so sure, at first I kind of brushed it off too but the stuccubus has always had a few problems that had been exacerbated as of late. One was pinning large horde units and not getting beat up, which tied into the second which was them removing models within engagement range to prevent the lock up. You wanted to charge the far ends of the unit to avoid the pig pile which meant they could remove models in a way to hose you. Now, you can dive straight into the middle and kick the crap out of them AND tie them up OR hit the flank to avoid getting hurt and with the 6" pile in still tag them, or even more cleverly tag a second unit since you can pile in any direction.

I think the master Succubus is pretty fantastic actually, she quit crossfit now that she can ride with the other girls leaving her enough time to focus on martial arts training

Talos, Cronos, Incubi and Scourges are CORE. It could be good when the strats hit.

 Denegaar wrote:
Talos, Cronos, Incubi and Scourges are CORE. It could be good when the strats hit.

I'm not too excited about that, basically the entire faction was core last week lol.

It is nice to see those things remaining so though. My guess is that beasts and vehicles will be the only things not core.

So I am thinking of army builds given this limited information and so far a black heart raider heavy army is screaming at me.

Draz
Archon with writ

5 man warriors blaster
5 man incubi
Raider with dark lance and trophies (and snares if you can do both if not a mix)

Repeat the above (not characters obviously) 3 times then switch incubi for mandrakes

Being blackheart all the raiders can advance and charge turn 1, this is pretty big as you can hit their lines first turn with a wave of raiders. Any raiders that don't advance will shoot the DL which is now rerollable to hit, very consistant. Each warrior unit will also reroll hitting with it's blasters which is mental.

Turn 2 the incubi and draz roll in and the trophies nuke the enemy leadership meaning the tormentor helms have high potential for forcing them to all fight last.
Obviously it needs to be fleshed out but the bones are there. really promising start as this is a totally different style kabal list then the current gun line for black heart.

Coven is also looking baller now with much improved liquifiers, finally they are strength 4 again and with set -2 and 12 inch range to boot. A raider can get two 5 mans for 4 total lol. That is going to melt things on the driveby, even after advancing.

I'd be willing to bet Lelith gets the Master Succubus warlord trait or a variation thereof.

She has 6 attacks base but if she gains the MS warlord trait and can replace her attacks with # of models within 2" of her that should add attacks. She's got a 4++ inv save (down from 3++ but that was expected) and -1 to hit, she rerolls hits and wounds. She also has Artist of Blades special rule so on 6's her knives are a further ap-1 although I'm guessing she'll have the 6's to wound is -3ap.

She's what? 90pts now. If she stays 90 I don't think she's all that bad. She might go up, she might have gone down. We won't know till more is leaked or till next Saturday (unless she gets used in a game by one of the big name streamer channels on YT such as TT, TT, Winters SEO, MWG, etc.)

I'm actually excited for them. Last time I played DE was 5th edition and I had a blast. The Piety and Pain and the incredibly valued Combat Patrol box means I'm starting a Drukhari army.

The new succubi relic is allegedly str+2 and d2 with 6+ to wounds ignoring invulns, so I don't see a world where lelith is worth taking over a standard succubi.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
She certainly isn’t great, but she’s there to take out 1 wound infantry, not space marines. And she’s at least decent at that.

I’m interested to see what her model looks like without that terrible paint job

in a meta dominated by marines sound pretty odd

A lot of good changes here which is exciting, mostly that they've increased transport capacity which is the most important change IMO.

Some poor changes here, I don't like being forced to take all different weapons on Wyches.

Huskblades are bad now strength 3, -2 AP and 2 DMG. Archons again seem pretty toothless. Kinda forces you to take the Relic Huskblade. I feel like Venom Blades might be a better choice (if they are a choice at all).

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
A lot of good changes here which is exciting, mostly that they've increased transport capacity which is the most important change IMO.

Some poor changes here, I don't like being forced to take all different weapons on Wyches.

Huskblades are bad now strength 3, -2 AP and 2 DMG. Archons again seem pretty toothless. Kinda forces you to take the Relic Huskblade. I feel like Venom Blades might be a better choice (if they are a choice at all).

Yeah, I honestly don't see why Huskblades were nerfed. They were not remotely overpowered in any conceivable way.

And the fact that they still cost points is just adding insult to injury.

Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

They probably saw that almost every list was using at least one and assumed that they had to be overpowered... completely forgetting that they'd given Kabal no other bloody HQs.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Again, GW just gives a bunch of stuff and takes a bunch of stuff away. I really don't get it.

Why can't they just make Archons good? Were they so game breaking?

It's because they were aiming to make all the archon options similar in value, you can tell by the point costs.

That said, it's not all that bad, several WLT increase the archons strength for example or as a master you can increase his damage allowing for damage 2 power swords for example, which is essentially what you would have expected the husk blade to be anyway only with better ap.

Poisoned tongue Master Archon for example with an agonizer is poison 3+ to wound at -3 and 2 damage. Pretty amazing considering your not even using a relic slot.

The other obsessions have similar fixes, flayed skull WLT is +1 strength and attack, so you can a husk blade at s4 -2 2 damage
again without even sinking your relic.

You can then go for a second archon with the djin blade and you can even still get another WLT like ancient evil to force combatants to fight last.

There are a ton of ways guys, if your just expecting to pay for an archon with a husk blade and no WLT or relic and expect them to solo anything at 70 points your nuts. My GSC primus is that cost and hes way worse then an archon stock like I listed lol.

But ultimately the succubus are the real combat monsters finally which makes the most sense honestly.

With a generic WLT you can add +2 to a succubus attacks and they have 6 stock now, use the triptich whip and the +1 attack drug and you have 12 attacks at poison 2+ -3 flat 2 damage which is bananas. There is even a strat to allow poison to work on none titanic vehicles for a turn, meaning she will walk through tanks now as well.

I also like the cursed blade suicide stuccubus. Give her the specific relic and WLT and every save she makes on a 4+ bounces a mortal and if she dies she blows up for d3+3 mortals on a 2+ lol which is nuts to me for her cost. She will kill any almost any elite character in a duel that isn't a primarch, she even has solid odds verse abadon or calgar.

It's pretty wild how awesome the characters are now.

Heck a master Haemi with the specific relic can inflict d3 mortals to a chief apothecary and turn off his aura for a full round which is peak trolling.

There are ways around it.

My point is that I think that we shouldn't have to have ways to make them base line. They should be lethal on their own, and go to extreme lethality when given WLT and Relics.

Beatstick Archons are now likely Flayed Skull with a Djinn Blade, or Poison Tongue with a Venom Blade

Court of the Archon is single unit of 0-4 of each members of the Court.
- Lhamean gained Blade Artists and Toxin Crafter (Archon and Truebron Poison attack of 6s in 3' of this unit automatically wound).
- Ur-Ghouls have 5+ FNP
- Sslyth have 5+ FNP , Cold-Blooded Bodyguard has changed - while any Sslyth in the unit is alive, enemies cannot target your Archon, if he is in 3' from the unit.
- Medusae shots are now D6 Pistol.


The Toxin Crafters custom Kabal seems pretty cool:

-When a Kabal attacks with a poisoned weapon (both shooting or melee), a natural 6s to hit chage the shot into "poisoned(2+)
-When a Kabal attacks with a poisoned weapon (both shooting or melee), you can reroll the wound rolls.

Costs two Obsessions though.