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Absolutely IN on playing Dark Creed with Incubi. Add some Trophies and PGLs and the synergy is real (at least).

Is your idea to just put your Archon with the Heat Lances for the RRs?

About the Succubus, have you heard of the Razorflails, Precision Blows and Dark Lotus Toxin one?

 Denegaar wrote:
Absolutely IN on playing Dark Creed with Incubi. Add some Trophies and PGLs and the synergy is real (at least).

Is your idea to just put your Archon with the Heat Lances for the RRs?

About the Succubus, have you heard of the Razorflails, Precision Blows and Dark Lotus Toxin one?

I think the buff Archon would go either with the Heat Lances - or move up with the Incubi - depending on your opponent and where the priority is. Really you'd probably try and engineer both (i.e. buff up the Scourge turn 1/2, get in position to advance/charge into the mid-board objective scramble turn 2/3). You'd have to decide based on the mission, your opponent's list and the terrain. Whether Incubi strictly need all these buffs to blend just about anything I can think of is another question.

Another option would be paying a few more points to swap out the Scourge for 3 Talos. While you halve your heat lances, they can join everyone in charging things, you potentially boost them in two phases and are usually going to be harder to kill. If you have got 4-5 dark lances from raiders as well, that might be enough heavy guns in a meta which seems to be going "anti-tank is so lethal, don't take many tanks, so don't bring that much anti-tank".

I'm actually tempted to say Talos just look very good for their points (although at 7 wounds I think the swap on invul/FNP might tell against), and you could easily take 6-9 of them, but that's quite a different list.

I've not really looked at Charadon - but yes, that combo seems good too. All in all, while it takes relics+warlord traits, it seems you can make quite a few effective characters.

Basically I'm in camp "this codex looks incredibly powerful". The question is what you leave out.

How good are the wytch bikes? I was planing on building an army around helions and bikes, but then 8th edition codex came and they looked really bad.

It seems helions are better. Are bikes good?

 Niiai wrote:
How good are the wytch bikes? I was planing on building an army around helions and bikes, but then 8th edition codex came and they looked really bad.

It seems helions are better. Are bikes good?

Bikes are much better than they were, higher strength, better MW output. Hellions have the edge in certain areas, but the abilty to equip Heat Lances makes Reaver better vs heavier stuff. The units have a nice synergy, and a Strat which boosts them both if you have both types of units within sight of oneanother.

 vipoid wrote:
Oh wow, that's a fantastic rundown, Scotsman.


One very minor thing - I thought Kabalites had always been able to take 2 special weapons per 10?

I didnt think 2 special+heavy was allowed. I may be mistaken.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Oh wow, that's a fantastic rundown, Scotsman.


One very minor thing - I thought Kabalites had always been able to take 2 special weapons per 10?

I didnt think 2 special+heavy was allowed. I may be mistaken.

Kabalite loadout is the same as previously, a unit of 5 can have a special weapon (plus Sybarite stuff), while a unit of 10 can have two specials and one heavy. 10 Trueborn in a Raider is serious business.

I was wondering about a triple-patrol along these lines:

Obsidian Rose Patrol
Master Archon w/ Djin Blade, Blast Pistol
10 Trueborn w/ Dark Lance, 2x Blaster
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
5 Warriors w/ Blaster
5 Incubi
Raider w/ Disintegrator
Raider w/ Disintegrator
Raider w/ Disintegrator

Poison Tongue Patrol
Master Archon w/ Agoniser, Soul Seeker
10 Trueborn w/ Dark Lance, 2x Blaster
5 Mandrakes
5 Mandrakes
5 Scourges w/ 4x Dark Lance
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon
Venom w/ 2x Splinter Cannon

Cursed Blade Patrol
Master Succubus (not sure about wargear yet)
10 Bloodbrides w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol 3x Wych weapon, +1A
5 Wyches w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol, +1A
5 Wyches w/ Agoniser, Blast Pistol, +1A
9 Reavers w/ 3x heat Lance, +1BS

I think this is around 2000pts


Basically making use of the fact that you can have multiple Master Archons if they're in different detachments and from different Kabals. So I can get 2 Trueborn squads. Also, taking transports from different Kabals to get the best buffs for each.

That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

Mandrakes can now start play infiltrated up the board, and you get a free redeploy with them during the game.

I need to get some Hellions, but they've gone from bargain basement to sold-out in 24 hours

I definitely want to try a spookemup army setup at some point but I think theres many good options for setup beyond just all drukhari Trophy Takers/Dark Creed/Poisoned Tongue.

Looking at what each bring to the table...

Poisoned Tongue: cheapest pgl spam setup with 2x5 kabs in a splinter rack+pgl raider

Easily procced -1 to attrition

Dark Creed: a non-pgl based way to get offense from a spooked up squad, probably best with Talos

Good way to LD-bomb with a grisly trophy Venom with 2 liquifiers in it for -3ld and -1 attrition

Craftworld Eldar: min size detachment with farseer on bike, rangers, hemlock with terrify

Fantastic huge ld bomb on the hemlock, another way to proc offense with mind war

Harlequins: silent Shroud is better Trophy Takers
Death Jester allows more harmful Morale fails and another targeted ld bomb
5x fusions in a weaver is a double duty antitank and ld bomb unit
Harlequins are just busted rn.

A realspace raid battalion + fairly packed Silent Shroud patrol is probably going to be my starting point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

Technically he can buff them with the writ if you're particular with that.

Thanks for the awesome breakdown Scotsman.

Quick question here. The leaked Imgur pages have Reavers at 10 pts/model. Is this still a thing? I know you said minimum size squad was 70 points with a heat lance. That would mean 20 pts/model.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Thanks for the awesome breakdown Scotsman.

Quick question here. The leaked Imgur pages have Reavers at 10 pts/model. Is this still a thing? I know you said minimum size squad was 70 points with a heat lance. That would mean 20 pts/model.

It looks like the UK/English language codex has shipped with them at 10 points.
Given the field manual also had this, and then boosted them to 20 points (as they were in the Spanish Codex leaks, not sure about any others) - it seems inevitable they'll end up being 20 points. Although if you wanted to be that guy, you could theoretically break out 36 Reavers for the next few weeks until GW hold their hands up.

Its the sort of thing that shouldn't happen, bad GW etc - but probably relates in part to the fact these books should have shipped some time before the munitorum field manual update.

Have we seen the way open topped is worded to confirm what rules will and won't affect passengers (obsessions in particular)? The transport rules in the rulebook say passengers cannot be affected by any abilities, but I don't know what all that extends to.

Also, have we seen any specific phrasing on combat drugs to know if that's the kind of ability that will have to be written on the army list so that it can't be changed from game to game like many other abilities in 9th?

It looks like the UK/English language codex has shipped with them at 10 points.
Given the field manual also had this, and then boosted them to 20 points (as they were in the Spanish Codex leaks, not sure about any others) - it seems inevitable they'll end up being 20 points. Although if you wanted to be that guy, you could theoretically break out 36 Reavers for the next few weeks until GW hold their hands up.

Hmm, I definitely don't want to be that guy. But I do want to run 1 or 2 units. It will depend on what I can afford based on their cost. I guess I'll have to wait for the FAQ.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Thanks for the awesome breakdown Scotsman.

Quick question here. The leaked Imgur pages have Reavers at 10 pts/model. Is this still a thing? I know you said minimum size squad was 70 points with a heat lance. That would mean 20 pts/model.

They were at 10 initially in the new MFM which then got two week faqed back to 20.

Theyll be 20 after the two week faq of the dex. Its a typo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Have we seen the way open topped is worded to confirm what rules will and won't affect passengers (obsessions in particular)? The transport rules in the rulebook say passengers cannot be affected by any abilities, but I don't know what all that extends to.

Also, have we seen any specific phrasing on combat drugs to know if that's the kind of ability that will have to be written on the army list so that it can't be changed from game to game like many other abilities in 9th?

I know they recently clarified open topped to basically be "any abilities the unit itself has affect it, including army wide and subfaction rules, but it doesnt get auras or other rules"

I'm so hyped about this new codex, at first glance, it seems better to soup up different kabals and cults, but the poisoned tongue kabal seems fitting for my list;

Poisoned tongue battalion
- archon (warlord, hatred eternal, djin blade)
- drazhar
- 3x5 kabalite (blaster each)
- 3x5 kabalite (shredder each)
- 10 incubi
- 2x5 mandrake
- 5 scourge (4x blaster)
- 3x ravager (3x dark lance each)
- 4x raider (dark lance)
- 4x venom (2x splinter cannon each)
Total 2k
My plan for secondaries are engage on all fronts, teleport homer and one optional (bring it down, assassinate, abhor the witch or thin their ranks)
Should be a decent amount of antitank, now that the dark lance got better damage, and poison 3+ should deal with hordes.
Incubi and mandrakes can deal with melee units.

If youre running PT I think 2x5s in a raider is a waste of good potential splinter cannons.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Perhaps not as good, but they’re also 10 points per model which is insanely good.

They are not. They are 20 points. Yes, I know, the English Codex states they are 10 points. But since the Munitorum Field Manual states that they are 20 points (all the points listed in it do match the new Codex) AND the translated Codex (at least in my French copy) also state they cost 20 points, then that's their price.

I'm intrigued at the possibility of using BH Raiders full of Kabalites (or Trueborn) instead of Ravagers.

That's a good note, i'm also considering realspace raiders with kabal of the black heart. But damn, poison 3+ is just so good.

Another interesting note for competitive list construction: realspace raid does offer the opportunity to have more than 3 subfactions in one list.

Also I think people are seriously sleeping on obrose. They're crazy safe with the new splinter racks.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
That looks really fun to play, and covers a lot of bases. I'm a big fan of the Mandrakes.

I might actually tweak it so that a unit of Mandrakes can ride with the second Archon in one of the Venoms.

(I know he can't actually buff them, I just like the idea.)

I'll probably end up swapping out one of the Wych or Kabalite squads for some Hellions.

Technically he can buff them with the writ if you're particular with that.

That's true. But I'd like to try just Kabal and Cult, so no Coven to make up the RSR.

the_scotsman wrote:

Also I think people are seriously sleeping on obrose. They're crazy safe with the new splinter racks.

I'll confess that I'd largely overlooked Obsidian Rose until I read your review. You make a good point regarding the synergy with Splinter Racks.

I also really like the single reroll to wound for every single unit.

 harlokin wrote:
I'm intrigued at the possibility of using BH Raiders full of Kabalites (or Trueborn) instead of Ravagers.

I like the overall strategy but why Black Heart? Given the limitation of auras, it seems you're not really getting much out of it.

 vipoid wrote:


I like the overall strategy but why Black Heart? Given the limitation of auras, it seems you're not really getting much out of it.

The Black Heart obsession lets each unit re-roll a single hit roll every time it shoots or fights. So the Raider would get a reroll on its Dark Lance, and the Kabalites would get their own reroll.

BH looks really good in a realspsce raid too as Blades For Hire in the detachment also benefit from treating the Power from Pain table as one round higher. So, for example, you could infiltrate Mandrakes in deployment, then advance and charge turn 1. Writ of the Living Muse exends to Blades For Hire if you’re in a Realspace Raid, giving Incubi, Scourges, Mandrakes etc re-roll 1s to hit and wound .

In a Realspace Raid, I don't see any Kabal being better than Black Heart.

It gives +1 PfP to your Incubi and Mandrakes and potentially rerolls to them too with the Archon. And you want to play those units. Incubi are just stupidly good, and Mandrakes with the forward deploy are really good IMO in competitive lists.

I can see other Kabals being really good in triple patrol lists without the RsR. God, there's so much possibilities with this Codex.

EDIT: Have in mind Mandrakes don't get the RR1 to hit, as they are not CORE. They get the Muse RR1 to wound though, as it effectes Blades for Hire.

 harlokin wrote:

The Black Heart obsession lets each unit re-roll a single hit roll every time it shoots or fights. So the Raider would get a reroll on its Dark Lance, and the Kabalites would get their own reroll.

Ah, I missed that. Okay, yeah, that's really useful.

 Denegaar wrote:
In a Realspace Raid, I don't see any Kabal being better than Black Heart.

Same. Which seems a bit of a shame, tbh.

 Denegaar wrote:

It gives +1 PfP to your Incubi and Mandrakes and potentially rerolls to them too with the Archon. And you want to play those units. Incubi are just stupidly good, and Mandrakes with the forward deploy are really good IMO in competitive lists.

Mandrakes with forward deploy and Advance+Charge from turn 1 definitely look interesting.

 Denegaar wrote:

EDIT: Have in mind Mandrakes don't get the RR1 to hit, as they are not CORE. They get the Muse RR1 to wound though, as it effectes Blades for Hire.

Yeah, that was one of the things that made me hesitate. Might still try it at some point but it definitely feels like I wouldn't be making the best use of the Archon.

The Buff Archon will be pretty weak in melee, but so good at buffing the RsR that you'll have to decide where to send him. Anyway, looking at the stratagems of the book, there's so many reroll 1s to hit and to wound that is kinda ridiculous.

The more I read about the book the more I think it's not only fun, but kinda powerful... not Mortarion or full DA terminators powerful, but really balanced at killing and playing the game.

The only stuff I don't like much is Beasts, Flyers and I'm so so with the Scourges. The rest of the stuff has a place and looks effective.

When Skari is saying that Cronos are an auto-take for him, then there is buried treasure in the book.

I'm overall very happy.....but just a bit disappointed that my Flayed Skull fave is pretty meh now.

 harlokin wrote:
When Skari is saying that Cronos are an auto-take for him, then there is buried treasure in the book.

I'm overall very happy.....but just a bit disappointed that my Flayed Skull fave is pretty meh now.

It is a little odd that the other Kabals generally gained abilities but Flayed Skull actually lost one, in addition to also having its movement bonus reduced.

 vipoid wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
When Skari is saying that Cronos are an auto-take for him, then there is buried treasure in the book.

I'm overall very happy.....but just a bit disappointed that my Flayed Skull fave is pretty meh now.

It is a little odd that the other Kabals generally gained abilities but Flayed Skull actually lost one, in addition to also having its movement bonus reduced.

Yeah, I don't get it....BH even took a bit of their schtick with the re-roll attacks bit of their obsession. You could probably make a better Flayed Skull using custom Kabals.