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They are not. They are 20 points. Yes, I know, the English Codex states they are 10 points. But since the Munitorum Field Manual states that they are 20 points (all the points listed in it do match the new Codex) AND the translated Codex (at least in my French copy) also state they cost 20 points, then that's their price.

Alright bahd, wanna chill a bit?

New codex supersedes Munitorium Field Manual. And since the English one is the only one I will be using, the points actually ARE 10 points for me until I get an FAQ. So no. Thats not their price, at least not for me.

I understand they will probably be changing the cost to 20 points, and I won't be playing them until then anyway.

This is why I asked, so I wouldn't waste my time and money.

IMO, Reaver Jetbikes are pretty good at 20 points now. They gained:

- Better PfP.
- Better dmg on Heat Lances and the BS drug.
- Better melee with buffable Bladevanes.
- Better Caltrops.
- Better Stratagems with the Rivalry.
- Now Advance and Charge even if not Red Grief.

At 20 is good, at 10 unbelievable.

 Denegaar wrote:
IMO, Reaver Jetbikes are pretty good at 20 points now. They gained:

- Better PfP.
- Better dmg on Heat Lances and the BS drug.
- Better melee with buffable Bladevanes.
- Better Caltrops.
- Better Stratagems with the Rivalry.
- Now Advance and Charge even if not Red Grief.

At 20 is good, at 10 unbelievable.

Oh yeah. Reavers are fine, great even, you can run them totally MSU now without worrying about spreading your drugs. If you're wanting them for melee you might as well use hellions - a sentence no human has ever said before this point ever but there it is - but as a shooty antitank unit to help your wych cults blow up those pesky vehicles, 2+BS MSU heat lances would appear to be the metaphorical bomb.

I think flyers in wych cults are obsolete.

Incidentally I've added changes and analysis for the last few units onto my post two pages back. TLDR is Cronos Better, Decent Quality Now, Ravager didnt really change much, Raiders up, Venoms probably a bit more niche, Razorwing Jetfighters now solidly outclassed by Voidraven Bombers with the new all-D2-All-The-Time setup and the hot new void mine rule.

The new Shock Prow stratagem is hilarious. If you charge with a a Raider/Ravager roll 1d6 for any models in engagement range. If you roll equal to or greater than their Toughness, they take 1MW.

I mean if I was running a coven brick id absolutely bring a cronos along. Its 8 points per wound, and those wounds have some high defenses. If they try to shoot the cronos, fantastic, enjoy being eaten by my talos/grots. If you dont shoot my cronos he'll happily plow in to your screen and give them back a few wounds.


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 harlokin wrote:
The new Shock Prow stratagem is hilarious. If you charge with a a Raider/Ravager roll 1d6 for any models in engagement range. If you roll equal to or greater than their Toughness, they take 1MW.

Yeah. Im very meh on it. Basically just another D3 mw strat at the end of the day.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean if I was running a coven brick id absolutely bring a cronos along. Its 8 points per wound, and those wounds have some high defenses. If they try to shoot the cronos, fantastic, enjoy being eaten by my talos/grots. If you dont shoot my cronos he'll happily plow in to your screen and give them back a few wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
The new Shock Prow stratagem is hilarious. If you charge with a a Raider/Ravager roll 1d6 for any models in engagement range. If you roll equal to or greater than their Toughness, they take 1MW.

Yeah. Im very meh on it. Basically just another D3 mw strat at the end of the day.

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

Early rumours seems to have good internal balance. A very good thing.

And they do so far not have the GSC cult problem of 4 melee units who all do the same thing vs the same targets. Wytches, Wracks and Incuby are different beats alltogether.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

Cool. Lots of people who have had the codex for a bit, and know what they are talking about, seem to have a high opinion of the Cronos.

Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

They look good...I think

They have gained an extra point of strength on their Flesh gauntlets and extra damage on their Monstrous cleavers. I think 5+++ benefits them, and there some options. If you go PoF they regain a lost wound in each of your Command phases, while Dark Tech makes Liquifier Grots very viable.

Cronos can bring Grots back from the dead too.

A talos is 15pts cheaper, faster, has melta range out to 18", roughly the same durability, slightly worse melee against some targets but has a whole host of stuff through PFP.

Id take a talos over a dread.


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D2 cleavers is a huge game changer on grots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

I would always want Co12 on Hex/Oss wracks. They can raise a banner and shoot the same turn, thats aces.

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

The PfP and Prophets of Flesh changes destroyed what viability they had, perhaps -1D and 3x5/3x9 Grotesques could give them a bit more "oomph" but other than that totally dead


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

I'd rather go 5 Wracks units with double Liquifier, much more suited to them since it's Assault, close range and right before a charge (and also a little Overwatch deterrent)


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 harlokin wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

They look good...I think

They have gained an extra point of strength on their Flesh gauntlets and extra damage on their Monstrous cleavers. I think 5+++ benefits them, and there some options. If you go PoF they regain a lost wound in each of your Command phases, while Dark Tech makes Liquifier Grots very viable.

Cronos can bring Grots back from the dead too.

6++ and 5+++ even at T5 (T6 with Haemonculus but it has to be fielded alongside them on board) is still subpar for 40 points, -1D is absolutely a necessity but at this point you're going hard on them and not using any Wracks for sure

Just glad that I had some additional foresight and bought 5 more hellions for $23 a few months ago, now that people are trying to flog them on ebay for $50-60. May have to see how many points my wych cult are now, and what I'd want to take it to 2000.

Currently..

2x succubus
2x10 wyches
9 reavers
10 hellions
5 scourges
2 venoms
raider
2 razorwings
archon
10 kabalites

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?

Is there a need to combine it with anything? Toss in another 5 points per squad for an Ossefactor and you're looking at basic infantry that can just mow down Gravis-tier targets en masse for the cost of a basic Guardsman squad. It's a cheap enough slot-in via a Patrol if you're not taking an RSR, and they can still nyoom around in a Kabal Venom or Raider for safekeeping against shooting heavy matchups.

Something that was brought up earlier was the PGL alongside leadership debuffs. I have a sneaking suspicion that particular build may end up having legs, especially since it isnt restricted to Infantry or specific smaller unit keywords. Popping 1d3 possible MW output across the army is tasty as hell.

Sterling191 wrote:
Something that was brought up earlier was the PGL alongside leadership debuffs. I have a sneaking suspicion that particular build may end up having legs, especially since it isnt restricted to Infantry or specific smaller unit keywords. Popping 1d3 possible MW output across the army is tasty as hell.

Hmmmm.
Be interesting to see if someone tries. I just can't quite get the pieces to work in my head.

The problem is Grisly Trophies only having a 3" range. Not the end of the world perhaps when you are flying M14" or 16" - but its low.
If you could get Dark Creed on some transports for the -3 LD, I can see how you'd then pound that target with say 6-9 PGLs, and hope to do a decent number of mortal wounds.
But I'm not sure its much more than that.

Its sort of always been the problem with freakshow lists - how far do you commit over taking things that will just kill stuff.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

What about Grotesques?

The PfP and Prophets of Flesh changes destroyed what viability they had, perhaps -1D and 3x5/3x9 Grotesques could give them a bit more "oomph" but other than that totally dead

Lol. They took a durability nerf and their damage was doubled. They're basically less glass cannon Incubi, you just may want to field them in a Raider now.

5-man with either 5 or 4 Liquifiers in a Raider seems like a no-brainer, they're just less effective than Taloi and Wracks as a brick unit.


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Tyel wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
Something that was brought up earlier was the PGL alongside leadership debuffs. I have a sneaking suspicion that particular build may end up having legs, especially since it isnt restricted to Infantry or specific smaller unit keywords. Popping 1d3 possible MW output across the army is tasty as hell.

Hmmmm.
Be interesting to see if someone tries. I just can't quite get the pieces to work in my head.

The problem is Grisly Trophies only having a 3" range. Not the end of the world perhaps when you are flying M14" or 16" - but its low.
If you could get Dark Creed on some transports for the -3 LD, I can see how you'd then pound that target with say 6-9 PGLs, and hope to do a decent number of mortal wounds.
But I'm not sure its much more than that.

Its sort of always been the problem with freakshow lists - how far do you commit over taking things that will just kill stuff.

With PGLs and Dark Creed +1 to hit you've got some solid ways to proc offense off of leadership bombing. The biggest problem with Freakshow lists has always been the amount of factions that don't give a gak about morale. In this case, Space Marines who ignore attrition mods.

Versus any other army, we have the means to make leadership failures absolutely disgusting. -2 to attrition with Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue means 1/2 of any squad goes when they fail a test, and putting down -3ld is trivial.

However, i do think it'll end up being necessary to give up PFP to get Silent Shroud harlequin allies. The Silent Shroud subfaction tactic+the mask of secrets will make those -2 attrition tests vastly easier to achieve.

the_scotsman wrote:

With PGLs and Dark Creed +1 to hit you've got some solid ways to proc offense off of leadership bombing. The biggest problem with Freakshow lists has always been the amount of factions that don't give a gak about morale. In this case, Space Marines who ignore attrition mods.

Versus any other army, we have the means to make leadership failures absolutely disgusting. -2 to attrition with Dark Creed and Poisoned Tongue means 1/2 of any squad goes when they fail a test, and putting down -3ld is trivial.

However, i do think it'll end up being necessary to give up PFP to get Silent Shroud harlequin allies. The Silent Shroud subfaction tactic+the mask of secrets will make those -2 attrition tests vastly easier to achieve.

The attrition modifier is for sure matchup dependent, but having ways to sprinkle MWs against hyper durable things like bricks of DG Terminators or Custodes in general is straight up gold. I think pretty much the only army that would be unaffected is Orks due to the way Mob Rule functions (effectively inflates Ld to up to 30). Tyranids will take it on the chin since Synapse is an auto-pass to Morale, not a leadership value modifier.

I'm glad Lelith is decent. I mean she could be D tier character and I'd still field her. I love the lore, I love the model (yeah even the new one with thicc thighs).

I know the generic Succubus is better but I'm always going to run Lelith. Even in a multi Wych Cult patrol I'll take Lelith and she'll be my warlord.

Once my LGS starts doing tournaments I'll drop her for a more "efficient" HQ. Then again my city is small, only around 10-12 people play 40k and none of them have ever played in anything more competitive than the local tournaments around here and from the lists I've seen I doubt any of them have browsed the 40k forums or YT to copy/paste the top table net lists.

Blood Dancer lelith is just as efficient as any succubus build in Strife IMO. Just because she can't quite one-round a marine captain with average rolls (falling one wound short) she can easily survive the attacks from any non-relic based build (and several common relic builds) and kill him in the opponent's turn.

Shardnet+Impaler succubus with Dark Lotus Toxin and Precision Blows is able to deal more damage to elite targets, but not everything you run into is 4++ protected marine captains.

Lelith's value is far more in being a disruptor than in outright murder (and she isn't a slouch in the latter, it's just that specific other Succubi builds are just hyper-lethal even by the standards of 9th). Getting effectively 18" of bonus movement in the Fight phase, and most of it without restriction, can make an absolute mess of an opponent's lines. Combine with her always fight first Obsession and she's just going to kimbo slice through opponents who dont have something specifically to shut her down.

 harlokin wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

Cool. Lots of people who have had the codex for a bit, and know what they are talking about, seem to have a high opinion of the Cronos.

Lots? So far I have only seen skari praising the cronos. I like skari and appreciate that like me, he tries to put shine on even the worst turd, however in this instance I REALLY don't see the Cronos being an auto take at all.

For one it's kinda slow, then once it makes melee it has low attacks at a horrid WS and AP and only 1 damage. I mean, it's averaging 0.7 unsaved wounds verse MEQ and it needs to kill things to res anything. So it's not even bringing back one dude there.

Then you look at it's price and realize you can just field more of anything else your trying to bring back to life in the first place. Seriously, I was in that stream of his and he was excited at the thought of bringing incubi back to life, you could just take an entire 5 man unit instead of the cronos to begin with.

I could maybe see it as a cheaper then a talos objective camper. But even then it just seems like a waste of opportunity elsewhere.

Even its reroll aura is redundant. Kabal can get it with the writ in a RSR and it buffs everything in both phases. Cult already gets it from a succubus and Coven has torurers craft for full rerolls.

Sadly it needed a total redesign and it didn't get one. I honestly think it's weapons should have functioned exactly like the Phantasm GL procing mortals off leadership, then healing from that damage. Would have synergized perfectly with the dark creed and the other LD shenanigans in the rest of the army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?


I'll say this for our codex - our troops definitely don't feel like taxes.

Dark Tech is so good still on any of the wrack guns and even the vehicles although at a risk. Damage 3 hex rifles and ossefactors from the back field is solid. Raiders with damage d3+4 dark lances are basically mini reapers with transport capacity. I am having trouble looking past dark tech now that PoF took such a major hit. Dark creed looks fun as an alternative but you basically get their trait on every vehicle now and LD mechanics are always super gimicky and usually avoidable for a ton of factions. Orks break heads, guard take it on d3, GSC nids and most of chaos is immune, Necrons are all LD 10 and marines are all at least immune to attrition.

Sterling191 wrote:
she's just going to kimbo slice through opponents who dont have something specifically to shut her down.

Will she though? I mean, that's kind of the issue with characters like her. Strength 4 is frankly just pathetic for a melee beatstick, even with lots of attacks. I can kind of empathize with the idea of a disruptive utility, but her damage output is frankly really poor against anything that matters.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
she's just going to kimbo slice through opponents who dont have something specifically to shut her down.

Will she though? I mean, that's kind of the issue with characters like her. Strength 4 is frankly just pathetic for a melee beatstick, even with lots of attacks. I can kind of empathize with the idea of a disruptive utility, but her damage output is frankly really poor against anything that matters.

S4 rerollable versus characters, and versus everything else, there doesn't tend to be that much excessive toughness running around. She suffers a bit vs T5 base armies like Death Guard, but you actually want more D1 attacks vs fewer D2 attacks against Death Guard, and most of the succubus alternative builds that look good are D2.


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 Red Corsair wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

I don't foresee any viability off Cronoses/Taloses, they are strictly worse Dreadnoughts in melee and meh shooting platforms; actually the only Coven units worth a damn now are Wracks and Dark Creed Transports with Grisly Trophies for -3 LD/-1 CA within 3"

Cool. Lots of people who have had the codex for a bit, and know what they are talking about, seem to have a high opinion of the Cronos.

Lots? So far I have only seen skari praising the cronos. I like skari and appreciate that like me, he tries to put shine on even the worst turd, however in this instance I REALLY don't see the Cronos being an auto take at all.

For one it's kinda slow, then once it makes melee it has low attacks at a horrid WS and AP and only 1 damage. I mean, it's averaging 0.7 unsaved wounds verse MEQ and it needs to kill things to res anything. So it's not even bringing back one dude there.

Then you look at it's price and realize you can just field more of anything else your trying to bring back to life in the first place. Seriously, I was in that stream of his and he was excited at the thought of bringing incubi back to life, you could just take an entire 5 man unit instead of the cronos to begin with.

I'm not out here saying it's an autoinclude by any means, but I can see basically 2 main use cases.

Use case 1, the obvious one, you field it alongside at least one maxed unit of Talos pain engines. You're presenting an opponent with an extra body with the exact same defensive profile, but it's 30 points cheaper, and it's got the dangling carrot of being a force multiplier that your opponent can freely target.

Either your opponent targets it, leaving all lets say 6 of your taloi on the field, or your opponent concentrates the taloi instead and you've got the potential to set up the resurrection of a talos (which is a little easier than you'd think to do since you do have the extra D3 healing from the haemonculus you've almost certainly also got hanging around). If he does that, instantly worth it to bring him along.

Use case 2, bring him alongside some more mobile glass cannon type unit like 10 incubi in a raider or a large unit of hellions and advance him towards the enemy lines turn 2 to get the aura on them and the strat off once they kill their target.

Also, i get .95 wounds on average vs MEQ before he gets WS3+ from turn 3 on. Are you not accounting for the fact that if he rolls a 6 to wound his attack becomes AP-2 D2?

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?

Is there a need to combine it with anything? Toss in another 5 points per squad for an Ossefactor and you're looking at basic infantry that can just mow down Gravis-tier targets en masse for the cost of a basic Guardsman squad. It's a cheap enough slot-in via a Patrol if you're not taking an RSR, and they can still nyoom around in a Kabal Venom or Raider for safekeeping against shooting heavy matchups.

Possibly not.

I was just a little unsure as to whether they packed sufficient firepower to kill characters without additional support.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Dark Tech is so good still on any of the wrack guns and even the vehicles although at a risk. Damage 3 hex rifles and ossefactors from the back field is solid. Raiders with damage d3+4 dark lances are basically mini reapers with transport capacity. I am having trouble looking past dark tech now that PoF took such a major hit. Dark creed looks fun as an alternative but you basically get their trait on every vehicle now and LD mechanics are always super gimicky and usually avoidable for a ton of factions. Orks break heads, guard take it on d3, GSC nids and most of chaos is immune, Necrons are all LD 10 and marines are all at least immune to attrition.

GSC having a 6" fearless aura on one definitely killable character I wouldn't say makes them 'immune' to morale, and guard being able to use a strat on one unit to take the test on D3 being a major barrier has me scratching my head as well. I'm not familiar with any chaos morale immunity mechanics, I know you can use the apostle to have a unit use his leadership (which is the easiest thing for a freakshow setup to counter in terms of morale immunity mechanics since you can just ld-bomb that unit and usually anything within 6" of him as well.

I don't think DC is the best hotness ever but I do think you're massively overselling 9th as an edition where morale immunity is universal. Compared to editions past when Fearless was something nearly every army had it's vastly easier to deal with now.


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 vipoid wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Something I saw mentioned in another thread - what do you guys think of using DT Wracks with Hexrifles as snipers?

You can pick up 3 squads for 135pts.

With the DT bonus, they'll be wounding most characters on 2s, with AP-2 and doing 3 damage apiece.

Could be good for taking out support characters and softening up stronger leaders.


Only issue I see is that there isn't much to combine it with. Spirit Sting could be good but it's from the wrong coven. Maybe the Soul Seeker if you're running PT alongside it?

Is there a need to combine it with anything? Toss in another 5 points per squad for an Ossefactor and you're looking at basic infantry that can just mow down Gravis-tier targets en masse for the cost of a basic Guardsman squad. It's a cheap enough slot-in via a Patrol if you're not taking an RSR, and they can still nyoom around in a Kabal Venom or Raider for safekeeping against shooting heavy matchups.

Possibly not.

I was just a little unsure as to whether they packed sufficient firepower to kill characters without additional support.

Maybe in dark tech if you have 3-4 of them.


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This is the general shape of where I'm thinking of starting with a Freakshow setup:

Realspace Raid Battalion (Wyches: Trophy Takers/something else probably just damage, Kabals: Poisoned Tongue, Covens: Dark Creed)

HQ: Archon, Huskblade, Splinter (Relic: Djinn Blade, Trait: Hatred Eternal)

HQ: Succubus, Shardnet and Impaler

HQ: Haemonculus

Troops: 5x wracks, ossefactor+hexrifle
Troops: 5x wracks, ossefactor+hexrifle
Troops: 5x wracks, 2x liquifier, electrocorrosive
Troops: 10x Kabalites, blaster, PGL, Splinter cannon
Troops: 10x Kabalites, blaster, PGL, Splinter cannon
Troops: 10x wyches, 1 of each wych weapon, PGL

Elites: 5x Incubi
Elites: 5x Incubi


Transport: Raider, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Transport: Raider, Grisly Trophies, PGL
Transport: Venom, twin splinter+cannon, Grisly Trophies
Transport: Raider, PGL, Splinter Racks
Transport: Raider, PGL, Splinter Racks

Harlequin Patrol, Silent Shroud Masque

HQ: Troupe Master, Embrace, Fusion Pistol

Troop: Troupe, 5x Fusions
Troop: Troupe, 5x Fusions

Elite: Death Jester, Death is not Enough
Elite: Solitaire, Relic: Mask of Secrets

Fast: 2x Skyweavers, Haywire

Primarily, I try to keep everything that can be armed with anti-tank weaponry armed as such because the leadership shenanigans can do so much to clear out infantry almost automatically. For secondaries I'd go for the "1 point for every model that flees" one obviously, plus Engage and Raise Banners if there isn't a better one available from the mission.

Chaos have warlord traits as well as abbadon that make their line fearless. So it's not a set thing. I was just highlighting that most factions have an answer to this style list, so sure you will probably catch them but then it's fairly easy for them to build in counters for any future matches.

I guess I am not a huge fan for 2 reasons.

The first is objective. Your getting the real payoff from attrition on elite models. I think everyone can agree here that this new book has 1001 ways to smoke chaf, so why bother playing with your food unless your really into odd ways to play which is perfectly fine by the way.

And verse elite armies you still need a way to proc the roll. So for example custodes, they are the prime target for this, incredibly expensive models that have no attrition imunity. But they have 3 model units 90% time lol. So your required to kill at least 1, and even then with -3 they are down to a ld5 meaning they need a 6. On large units your going to need to kill a few more obviously, at which point your kind of already winning, but they still can use the 2 cp auto pass for that crucial turn. Sure you can try again next turn, but at that point the unit is probably already destroyed.


The 2nd obviously subjective reason for me not being a huge fan is the feels bad moments it creates. I have dabbled with this in the past and a lot of players have no idea what your doing and then look surprised and let down as you use a back door in the game to remove their guys. Some folks will love it at first, but most will get tired of it in my experience. Most competitive players won't have any problem at all, but I'll be honest, this stuff never has the big splash verse those players.

I mean the nice thing about it to me is because it's all subfaction based, it's just something I can bust out for a fun game every once in a while - generally, when I want to bring Harlequins and Dark Eldar together it makes a good themed list.

From a competitive standpoint I feel like its mostly just a tool in your belt to keep in mind if a particular meta turns up that's susceptible to it. like if plaguebearer/plague marine spam nurgle armies became a big meta thing, you could probably use this to fairly good effect.

It's like the option of bringing 2 all-D2 Voidravens. Something you want in a TAC list? Naw. But if the meta went real crazy for MSU space marine aura-balls for a moment, that'd be an excellent tool in your belt to sneak in and sweep an event.

In general, I think coven of 12, Dark Technomancers, or the -1 damage one is probably the best for a covens TAC setup depending on what kinds of units you want to base your list around (5-man ossefactor/hexrifle wracks and grots on raiders I'd probably go Co12, talos corpsethief-style bricks I'd go -1 damage, liquifier spam venoms I'd go dark tech)

I am very curious about how a wrack spam meme list would work though. Obsessive Collectors/+1 Strength, 2 haemies, a couple cronos and then maybe 6 talos and then many blocks of 20 wracks. Sounds hilarious to me.

Oh and I have another use for a Cronos.

You liquifier something to death with your mob of grots and pop 2 cp to get them the entire PfP table.

I still think the Cronos kind of sucks, happy he got some mild use. I just happen to think that use is more the same as before, a cheaper talos.

His heal ability is just not good IMO. I get folks are excited to res a talos but it just isn't going to happen outside of once in a blue moon. The requirements are just hilariously convoluted. You need to have lost a model, but have no spill over damage. If you do, sure a haemi could heal it, but its only d3 and you can't cp reroll it. If it's anything over 3 damage you auto fail the mission lol. Remember you can't CP reroll the heal either.

I think his ability obviously works best on 1 wound infantry but as I said before your better off just taking either a raider or more of them instead.

I'll field him myself by the way 100% and I am happy others are too, but I just want to be honest in a tactics thread.

My dream was for decent hellions and cronos. I got insane hellions and a still bad Cronos. I'll take my win here, hopefully next go around they finally figure out how he should work. I mean, he could have removed obsec from a unit he damages, debuffed auras, attacked their leadership, moved the PfP table ahead a turn as an aura etc etc. It's not hard to think of way to make him cool.

Theoretically there's not a limit on the number of models you can pain syphon in a turn though, isn't there? like if you get a cronos into a squad of chaos cultists or guardsmen turn 3+, theoretically you could heal the last HP on a talos, resurrect a talos with 1hp, and then heal him up to 2, right? It's every time he eats a model.