Why? I cut it down for brevity. Too much thread space is taken endless quotes upon quotes.
My point was simple: If there is a specific problem, you fix the specific problem. You don't feth over everyone with a general fix because a small part of the rules aren't working.
Ironclads are not Venerable Dreadnoughts. Venerable Dreadnoughts are not regular Dreadnoughts. Regular Dreadnoughts are not Ironclads.
Lumping them together because a sub-list can abuse that is stupid.
Abaddon303 wrote: In fairness you could say our Daemon engines mitigate the shortfall in number of dreadnoughts we can access. I think the bigger deficiencies in the CSM line up compared to loyalists are probably aircraft and elite characters.
There are no aircraft in the main codex and can't see that being fixed so we're basically stuck with the lackluster FW options. I'm hoping some of the lower level HQs get moved to elites in the new codex.
At least we finally have a viable drop pod option...
The new Dreadclaw rules look awesome. But as far as daemon engines are concerned: Not in my Night Lords. Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
You really need to think outside the box a little.
You realize you can use the data profile for the mauler fiend as a combat dread and the forge-fiend for a shooty one right?
Same goes for any of the demon engines from FW for that matter.
Is it official GW rules? Yup!
Is it the way they intended? Maybe not, but it works well as an answer and the best part is you solved the issue without complaining on deaf ears.
I played Iron warriors for 10+ years now, i gained artillery, I lost artillery etc etc. I have resorted to using the loyalist marine rules in the worst times, people need to realize the rules have absolutely no loyalty to the fluff. Room on the sprue has more impact then fluff.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why? I cut it down for brevity. Too much thread space is taken endless quotes upon quotes.
My point was simple: If there is a specific problem, you fix the specific problem. You don't feth over everyone with a general fix because a small part of the rules aren't working.
Ironclads are not Venerable Dreadnoughts. Venerable Dreadnoughts are not regular Dreadnoughts. Regular Dreadnoughts are not Ironclads.
Lumping them together because a sub-list can abuse that is stupid.
Thank you for missing the point that was made in it's entirety.
Well done.
It's definietly more then just the IH supplement lol.
Clearly he hasn't played Bjorn and the gang yet.
Currently marines can cheat the rule of three in an incredible amount of areas just due to the sheer volume of data sheets they have that are pretty redundant.
I mean, Jesus Christ, the new land speeders and predators are each 3 separate datasheets rather then having upgrades listed meaning you can take 9 of either (more if the speeders are squadrons).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why? I cut it down for brevity. Too much thread space is taken endless quotes upon quotes.
My point was simple: If there is a specific problem, you fix the specific problem. You don't feth over everyone with a general fix because a small part of the rules aren't working.
Ironclads are not Venerable Dreadnoughts. Venerable Dreadnoughts are not regular Dreadnoughts. Regular Dreadnoughts are not Ironclads.
Lumping them together because a sub-list can abuse that is stupid.
Lumping them together is solving the same problem that comes from the fact we have TWO Gravis Captain entries. You really need a new entry because one Dread takes HK Missiles and a Hurricane Bolter?
Not Online!!! wrote: because you could have a singular dread entry, with an option to upgrade into either?
And what benefit is there to this other than saving page space?
Weren't you earlier (understandably) complaining about silly duplication of some primaris units in the new marine codex (such as the gravis captains) instead of making them one datasheet with options? Same thing.
And yeah, if 'venerable dreadnought' needs to be thing, then that definitely should just be an upgrade option that can be applied to any dreadnought. Similar to the 'chapter command' upgrade options.
Customization through purchasable upgrades is a lot better than multiple datasheets for every possible permutation of a unit. That system is one of the things that made csm 3.5 and the R&H army list in IA 13 so great.
Jidmah wrote: Basically every other ork vehicle has a 1 CP tax because many aren't worth taking without a kustom job.
Most of the Kustom Jobs should have just been the base stats on the datasheet. Hopefully that's what we'll see in the new Ork codex.
Not really. Having each kustom job only once both allows them to be more powerful and makes ork armies more diverse. It's one of the best use for CP in the whole game and should definitely not go away - especially since many of them can be applied to multiple units and some units have multiple ones to chose from.
Jidmah wrote: Basically every other ork vehicle has a 1 CP tax because many aren't worth taking without a kustom job.
Most of the Kustom Jobs should have just been the base stats on the datasheet. Hopefully that's what we'll see in the new Ork codex.
Not really. Having each kustom job only once both allows them to be more powerful and makes ork armies more diverse. It's one of the best use for CP in the whole game and should definitely not go away - especially since many of them can be applied to multiple units and some units have multiple ones to chose from.
Sorry, I thought you were complaining about the situation. Glad to hear you're happy with it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Customization through purchasable upgrades is a lot better than multiple datasheets for every possible permutation of a unit. That system is one of the things that made csm 3.5 and the R&H army list in IA 13 so great.
Honestly, I'd prefer slugga, shoota and trukk boyz to be split into three datasheets so they can have different bespoke rules that differentiate them from each other.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Customization through purchasable upgrades is a lot better than multiple datasheets for every possible permutation of a unit. That system is one of the things that made csm 3.5 and the R&H army list in IA 13 so great.
Honestly, I'd prefer slugga, shoota and trukk boyz to be split into three datasheets so they can have different bespoke rules that differentiate them from each other.
the fact that you need three entries with rules for specific sizes of boyz, goes to show they massacred the boyz entry ruleswise...
And frankly, rules for squadsizes triggering like Daemons or Boyz is just frankly bad design.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sorry, I thought you were complaining about the situation. Glad to hear you're happy with it.
No, I was just pointing out that Marines aren't the only ones who suffer the unbearable costs of 1 CP to field a unit that has relic character.
The difference is instead of that 1CP getting csm:
Jidmah wrote:Having each kustom job only once both allows them to be more powerful and makes ork armies more diverse. It's one of the best use for CP in the whole game and should definitely not go away - especially since many of them can be applied to multiple units and some units have multiple ones to chose from.
It gets us the loss of:
WS/BS2
Machine Malifica
+1 Attack for having 2 cc weapons
A 4++ from cc attacks
On Contemptors for the same points as they were previously + 1CP. And although I feel most of the changes to the Legion Super Heavys are for the better, they shouldn't cost 1CP more than every other LOW just because they have "relic character".
Not Online!!! wrote: because you could have a singular dread entry, with an option to upgrade into either?
And what benefit is there to this other than saving page space?
Weren't you earlier (understandably) complaining about silly duplication of some primaris units in the new marine codex (such as the gravis captains) instead of making them one datasheet with options? Same thing.
And yeah, if 'venerable dreadnought' needs to be thing, then that definitely should just be an upgrade option that can be applied to any dreadnought. Similar to the 'chapter command' upgrade options.
Or just be the default. Nobody takes the standard Dread because of unreliability. It was ALWAYS Ven no matter what. Ironclads suffered for that too, so standardizing the wargear between the two Dreads fixes a lot of those issues, unless you think a Dread with a Multi-Melta and Seismic Hammer would be broken. If that's the case you need to learn to do math.
Jidmah wrote: It gets you a unit that is otherwise unvailable to your codex.
And why doesn't any other faction with fw units pay that price to get a unit otherwise unavailable to their codex?
Look, I understand this for things like Leviathans and Daredeos, but not Contemptors. They weren't relics in 7th, for loyalists or csm, back when they had the same stats and abilities. But then they added the "Relic Contemptor" for loyalists in 8th, with 2 more wounds, a better armour save, and a 6+++ that none of the other Contemptors had. Because of that it was more expensive, and subject to the "Relic" rule. No other Contemptor was, not the loyalist codex version, the Hellforged, or the Mortis. Now all Contemptors have the same stats and abilities again, but just because the loyalist fw version has "Relic" in its name, it's subject to the Martial Legacy rule, while the codex version isn't. All of the csmfw units were obviously copy pasted from the loyalist datasheets (sloppily, judging from the fact that the Chaos Fellblade inexplicably gained the Spartans transport capacity), so the csm Contemptor has the same problem. I expect this may change in the FAQ, same as the Legion Super Heavys might lose the rule as well, just as they lost the Relic rule in 8th because they just didn't work with it.
Personally, I'd like to wait for that FAQ before passing final judgment on this book. It has potential, I love a lot of the new rules, but they need to drop Martial Legacy for Contemptors and the Legion Super Heavys. Fix that, and make the Fellblade's two profiles for its main gun actually matter, even if that means dropping the HE profile back down to D2, and I'll be happy.
Me, I just want them to remove the non-sensical exclusion of Thousand Sons not being able to take anything from the book. I mean, I'm sure whoever drives their Land Raiders can drive a bigger tank, right? And they already sacrifice others to fuel their Helbrutes...
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Me, I just want them to remove the non-sensical exclusion of Thousand Sons not being able to take anything from the book. I mean, I'm sure whoever drives their Land Raiders can drive a bigger tank, right? And they already sacrifice others to fuel their Helbrutes...
Check the actual rules. RAWTS are not excluded from anything but the contents of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. This might or might not change though.
Crimson wrote: Weren't you earlier (understandably) complaining about silly duplication of some primaris units in the new marine codex (such as the gravis captains) instead of making them one datasheet with options? Same thing.
There are two Gravis Captain entries in the Codex. The only difference between the two is that one of them has a specific gun... and that's it.
You want to make Ironclads and Dreads the same thing?
Red Corsair wrote: I mean, Jesus Christ, the new land speeders and predators are each 3 separate datasheets rather then having upgrades listed meaning you can take 9 of either (more if the speeders are squadrons).
And 9 of those new tanks will set you back 2,040 points. I'm sure this will be a big issue...
IMHO it's just clunky the same way the new marines and their special bolter/plasma/whatever options are.
I don't honestly think GW is precise enough as a system to warrant needing to remember the distinctions; I'd be surprised if most people don't have the imagination to believe that your chaplain dread or veteran dread is different than a regular heroic dread.
By all means, keep things that are substantially different, but I find a lot of GW unit entries really flabby and redundant, esp. when they're cutting loads of other, more unique options. There IMHO is very often not the tactical depth to warrant separate entries, esp. with the larger armies.
Crimson wrote: Weren't you earlier (understandably) complaining about silly duplication of some primaris units in the new marine codex (such as the gravis captains) instead of making them one datasheet with options? Same thing.
There are two Gravis Captain entries in the Codex. The only difference between the two is that one of them has a specific gun... and that's it.
You want to make Ironclads and Dreads the same thing?
Maybe not ironclads if we want to keep their higher toughness (though I'm not sure that's even necessary) but venerables, mortises, furiosos and whatever the Space Wolves have could be one entry with a bunch of weapon options. (Venerable could be a chapter command upgrade.)
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Me, I just want them to remove the non-sensical exclusion of Thousand Sons not being able to take anything from the book. I mean, I'm sure whoever drives their Land Raiders can drive a bigger tank, right? And they already sacrifice others to fuel their Helbrutes...
Check the actual rules. RAWTS are not excluded from anything but the contents of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. This might or might not change though.
I'd love to check the actual rules, but despite having ordered on 10/30, Forge World hasn't even shipped by book, yet.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: Me, I just want them to remove the non-sensical exclusion of Thousand Sons not being able to take anything from the book. I mean, I'm sure whoever drives their Land Raiders can drive a bigger tank, right? And they already sacrifice others to fuel their Helbrutes...
Check the actual rules. RAWTS are not excluded from anything but the contents of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. This might or might not change though.
I'd love to check the actual rules, but despite having ordered on 10/30, Forge World hasn't even shipped by book, yet.
Jidmah is referring to the FAQ for the previous index. It says that any fw chaos unit in it with the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword can taken by any Legion, including 1ksons and DG. You just replace the keyword with the appropriate god, and add your Legion in place of the generic <HERETIC ASTARTES>. One would assume that's still in effect until told otherwise. There will have to be a new FAQ soon, as this book is full of issues. Add the two versions of the Fellblade having different damage values for its HE shells (D3 for Loyalist Scum, D2 for the Legions) and all of the Legion Super Heavys losing Steel Behemoth to the list, though the latter could be intentional.
For those who have the book already. How is the Spartan fairing agains a regular land raider? I still have one on my shelf, and would like to use it. Did it get any better?
Darkseid wrote: For those who have the book already. How is the Spartan fairing agains a regular land raider? I still have one on my shelf, and would like to use it. Did it get any better?
Judging from what I can make out in the review video all the stats are the same, it's now either 460 or 450 PPM +1CP for Martial Legacy, and as I previously mentioned it may have lost Steel Behemoth (wait for the FAQ to be sure). If that's a win or not is up to you. It did get cheaper.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: I'd love to check the actual rules, but despite having ordered on 10/30, Forge World hasn't even shipped by book, yet.
The book just tells you to apply the limitations of Codex: Chaos Space Marines. You can read up those up at any time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Jidmah is referring to the FAQ for the previous index. It says that any fw chaos unit in it with the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword can taken by any Legion, including 1ksons and DG. You just replace the keyword with the appropriate god, and add your Legion in place of the generic <HERETIC ASTARTES>. One would assume that's still in effect until told otherwise. There will have to be a new FAQ soon, as this book is full of issues. Add the two versions of the Fellblade having different damage values for its HE shells (D3 for Loyalist Scum, D2 for the Legions) and all of the Legion Super Heavys losing Steel Behemoth to the list, though the latter could be intentional.
No, I am not. I'm referring to the rules as written in the new FW book and Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Codex: Chaos Space Marines does not put any limitation on the <LEGION> keyword for any datasheets not printed inside that codex.
Exact wording (FW book):
"This is a keyword you can select for yourself, following the guidance and restrictions detailed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines."
Codex CSM:
"The DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS and FALLEN deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from. The rules and abilities for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions are detailed in their own codexes, and both of the datasheets that describe the forces of the Fallen can be found later in this book."
I'm not hopeful that this is gonna be a mistake. I just don't understand why they would explicitly reference the restrictions in the CSM codex if they didn't want you to follow them.
I think having a separate death guard section and datasheet for the GBD is further evidence thatt this restriction is intentional.
There are a lot of mistakes in the book though as usual. The xiphon datasheet has the profile for Hunter killer missiles but no option to take them
I agree, but the rules don't actually work that way right now. We also need to keep in mind that the wording on <LEGION> can change with 9th edition's CSM codex.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Jidmah is referring to the FAQ for the previous index. It says that any fw chaos unit in it with the <MARK OF CHAOS> keyword can taken by any Legion, including 1ksons and DG. You just replace the keyword with the appropriate god, and add your Legion in place of the generic <HERETIC ASTARTES>. One would assume that's still in effect until told otherwise. There will have to be a new FAQ soon, as this book is full of issues. Add the two versions of the Fellblade having different damage values for its HE shells (D3 for Loyalist Scum, D2 for the Legions) and all of the Legion Super Heavys losing Steel Behemoth to the list, though the latter could be intentional.
No, I am not. I'm referring to the rules as written in the new FW book and Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Codex: Chaos Space Marines does not put any limitation on the <LEGION> keyword for any datasheets not printed inside that codex.
Exact wording (FW book):
"This is a keyword you can select for yourself, following the guidance and restrictions detailed in Codex: Chaos Space Marines."
Codex CSM:
"The DEATH GUARD, THOUSAND SONS and FALLEN deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from. The rules and abilities for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions are detailed in their own codexes, and both of the datasheets that describe the forces of the Fallen can be found later in this book."
I stand corrected. Hopefully that will remain RAW, as well as the rules from the FAQ, so that 1ksons and Death Guard can use these units if they want.
Has anyone gotten a good look at the Land Raider Proteus? I think I'm seeing a purchasable invul: HEAVY ARMOUR 15 points 5++. Am I seeing that right or just hallucinating?
Edit: Confirmed. HEAVY ARMOUR, 5++ for the Proteus, but you can't have it and the Accursed Phylactory (which appears to have been renamed into something easier to spell) at the same time. So why would you ever want to use a standard Land Raider?
Yeh the regular LR is 285pts. The LR Proteus with 2x Twin Las and Twin HB is also 285pts. You get a few extra weapon options to swap out the heavy bolters for and the option to spend 15pts on a 5++. It costs a CP also as it's a relic.
In 8th I would have questioned the need for a 5++, lascannons etc you were saving on a 5+ anyway, but the new melta proliferation in 9th makes it interesting.
Is it worth 15pts and a CP though? I think I'd rather spend 2CP on disgustingly resilient for my Death Guard.
What I think is really interesting is the Achilles. There's no relic CP cost and for 320pts it has the 5++ baked in and comes stock with a quad launcher and 2 twin volkite culverins. And if you want to be really obscene you can swap the two culverins for two twin multi-meltas so you're putting out a total of 12 S8 shots...
Jidmah wrote: The new document also settles the discussion at the start of the page - the option to replace <LEGION> with Death Guard has moved to legends.
Nail in the coffin of the Drill -> Blight Grenade Bomb. Also DG Leviathans.
Jidmah wrote: The new document also settles the discussion at the start of the page - the option to replace <LEGION> with Death Guard has moved to legends.
Nail in the coffin of the Drill -> Blight Grenade Bomb. Also DG Leviathans.
Why? It says how to handle the Legion keyword for DG so you can use all the Legion models again except for Rapiers. That's good, no?
Jidmah wrote: The new document also settles the discussion at the start of the page - the option to replace <LEGION> with Death Guard has moved to legends.
Nail in the coffin of the Drill -> Blight Grenade Bomb. Also DG Leviathans.
Why? It says how to handle the Legion keyword for DG so you can use all the Legion models again except for Rapiers. That's good, no?
Jidmah wrote:Unless you are a tournament/league player. Legends is usually banned from those
I suspect the introduction of <bubonic astartes> and <arcana astartes> keywords probably means DG will lose the heretic astartes keyword in the new book and therefore many of the shared synergy they enjoy with regular CSM. No more warptime etc?
Jidmah wrote: The new document also settles the discussion at the start of the page - the option to replace <LEGION> with Death Guard has moved to legends.
Nail in the coffin of the Drill -> Blight Grenade Bomb. Also DG Leviathans.
Why? It says how to handle the Legion keyword for DG so you can use all the Legion models again except for Rapiers. That's good, no?
Jidmah wrote:Unless you are a tournament/league player. Legends is usually banned from those
Yes, sorry. They're out for competitive.
Why? Death Guard and Thousand Sons are still Legions, they should have Legion units. All of the snowflake marines get access to their fw units. This looks worse and worse for Chaos.
Covenant of chaos is now a general generic gakky former khorne covenant... yeah S 4 for getting charged or charging or heroic intervention... I guess get fethed any non Khorne R&H players...
Commander: 35 pts for an ignore attriton modifiers aura.. so 5 ppm more for worse?
Malefic lord: You know what people hated? Smite bots, so how bout we make him a only smite bot, that's right NO MORE R&H psy, but now 30 ppm cheaper. feth you GW
Rogue psyker coven: You know what people hated, Smite bots, have this allways smiting bot group for 35 pts, EACH WITH 3 W. ARE YOU STUPID GW?
Renegade cultists: Strictly better then regular CSM cultists: For 5 PPM. on behalf of any CSM player: feth you gw.
Militia Squad: OH Wow GW realised that it overpriced the squad, HOW ABOUT WE DO IT AGAIN. 6 PPM For a worse Guardsmen with worse morale and Armor? Atleast now WS and BS 4 + but still gak and nowhere near IA13 status.
Btw: here comes the Chaos sigil, a shity reroll 1 for charging or charged melee status, FOR 10 PPM on S3(4) bodies...
Renegade mutant rabble: Nerfed in squad size, morale , got better mutations... 7PPM for a worse then Militia unit...
Renegade Command squad: Nerfed morale, nerfed fanatic, banners are bad. SV nerfed. still WSBS 3+ for 6 pts. So why'd people even bother with militia? or Mutants for that matter? Also no more command vox because of course!
Renegade disciple squad: Yay it got a champ, therefore morale is back to ONLY SLIGHTLY UNDER THE AVERAGE OF THE LAST ALLREADY BAD ITERATION. 7ppm?
it's excactly the same as the fething command disciples but it's one ppm more... feth you GW.
Enforcer: No more auto morale on d3 dead, infact he doesn't even execute anymore, got a price drop ? Better morale rule... Hell he might even be worth it now without the blob build but still lost alot of flavour...
Marauders: Now stalkers and murder cultists at the same time, also only unit with an SV4+ in the whole fething army still 9ppm for a disciple body is overpriced even with the tac on rules though. Atleast the brutes now are hitting half decent... also no more mercs so their morale now is conventional.
Ogryn beashandlers are wierd now, the more dogs you use the cheaper .. on average because min 1 ogryn and beast for 15 ppm regardless what you get? WHO THE feth LET THE INTERN WRITE THAT?
Berzerkers got nerfed, in regards to drugs and have no more champion
Chaos Spawn is now 23 ppm...with the covenant.. yeah that is really fething cheap..
Renegade heavy weapons squad: Basically like milita overpriced.... Until you realise that a clown aded a special equipment entry for the heavy weapons squad, yeah, they get a quad launcher for 35 ppm. you get a quad launcher team for 47 ppm....
Conclusion:
you couldn't even bother to give back some flavour of IA 13, instead we got a Index 8th somehow WORSE functionality for a collectors army . You actively achieved to make it simultaniously WORSE to play against, because i am sure somewhere some donkey-cave decides to coven smite spam, and field all the bloody quad launchers he can, whilest also making the regular R&H player basically also worse off with the nonsense that is the equipment and pts cost for the regular actually intersting units of a R&H army.
feth you GW. sincerly , i hope the donkey-cave that wrote this list has a seriously bad day. this is supposed to be a farwell, with no replacement option in sight that is worth that name. I hope the added ressources to develop primaris leutnants is fething worth it.
Jidmah wrote: The new document also settles the discussion at the start of the page - the option to replace <LEGION> with Death Guard has moved to legends.
Nail in the coffin of the Drill -> Blight Grenade Bomb. Also DG Leviathans.
Why? It says how to handle the Legion keyword for DG so you can use all the Legion models again except for Rapiers. That's good, no?
Jidmah wrote:Unless you are a tournament/league player. Legends is usually banned from those
Yes, sorry. They're out for competitive.
Why? Death Guard and Thousand Sons are still Legions, they should have Legion units. All of the snowflake marines get access to their fw units. This looks worse and worse for Chaos.
Because the new Legends document says that any datasheet using Death Guard or Thousand Sons as its <Legion> are considered Legends. So, you can use a Terrax-Pattern Termite, but if you give it the Death Guard <Legion>, it becomes Legend.
Not Online!!! wrote:just for funzies i went through the R&H list....
Warning strong language:
Spoiler:
Covenant of chaos is now a general generic gakky former khorne covenant... yeah S 4 for getting charged or charging or heroic intervention... I guess get fethed any non Khorne R&H players...
Commander: 35 pts for an ignore attriton modifiers aura.. so 5 ppm more for worse?
Malefic lord: You know what people hated? Smite bots, so how bout we make him a only smite bot, that's right NO MORE R&H psy, but now 30 ppm cheaper. feth you GW
Rogue psyker coven: You know what people hated, Smite bots, have this allways smiting bot group for 35 pts, EACH WITH 3 W. ARE YOU STUPID GW?
Renegade cultists: Strictly better then regular CSM cultists: For 5 PPM. on behalf of any CSM player: feth you gw.
Militia Squad: OH Wow GW realised that it overpriced the squad, HOW ABOUT WE DO IT AGAIN. 6 PPM For a worse Guardsmen with worse morale and Armor? Atleast now WS and BS 4 + but still gak and nowhere near IA13 status.
Btw: here comes the Chaos sigil, a shity reroll 1 for charging or charged melee status, FOR 10 PPM on S3(4) bodies...
Renegade mutant rabble: Nerfed in squad size, morale , got better mutations... 7PPM for a worse then Militia unit...
Renegade Command squad: Nerfed morale, nerfed fanatic, banners are bad. SV nerfed. still WSBS 3+ for 6 pts. So why'd people even bother with militia? or Mutants for that matter? Also no more command vox because of course!
Renegade disciple squad: Yay it got a champ, therefore morale is back to ONLY SLIGHTLY UNDER THE AVERAGE OF THE LAST ALLREADY BAD ITERATION. 7ppm?
it's excactly the same as the fething command disciples but it's one ppm more... feth you GW.
Enforcer: No more auto morale on d3 dead, infact he doesn't even execute anymore, got a price drop ? Better morale rule... Hell he might even be worth it now without the blob build but still lost alot of flavour...
Marauders: Now stalkers and murder cultists at the same time, also only unit with an SV4+ in the whole fething army still 9ppm for a disciple body is overpriced even with the tac on rules though. Atleast the brutes now are hitting half decent... also no more mercs so their morale now is conventional.
Ogryn beashandlers are wierd now, the more dogs you use the cheaper .. on average because min 1 ogryn and beast for 15 ppm regardless what you get? WHO THE feth LET THE INTERN WRITE THAT?
Berzerkers got nerfed, in regards to drugs and have no more champion
Chaos Spawn is now 23 ppm...with the covenant.. yeah that is really fething cheap..
Renegade heavy weapons squad: Basically like milita overpriced.... Until you realise that a clown aded a special equipment entry for the heavy weapons squad, yeah, they get a quad launcher for 35 ppm. you get a quad launcher team for 47 ppm....
Conclusion:
you couldn't even bother to give back some flavour of IA 13, instead we got a Index 8th somehow WORSE functionality for a collectors army . You actively achieved to make it simultaniously WORSE to play against, because i am sure somewhere some donkey-cave decides to coven smite spam, and field all the bloody quad launchers he can, whilest also making the regular R&H player basically also worse off with the nonsense that is the equipment and pts cost for the regular actually intersting units of a R&H army.
feth you GW. sincerly , i hope the donkey-cave that wrote this list has a seriously bad day. this is supposed to be a farwell, with no replacement option in sight that is worth that name. I hope the added ressources to develop primaris leutnants is fething worth it.
Jidmah wrote: The new document also settles the discussion at the start of the page - the option to replace <LEGION> with Death Guard has moved to legends.
Nail in the coffin of the Drill -> Blight Grenade Bomb. Also DG Leviathans.
Why? It says how to handle the Legion keyword for DG so you can use all the Legion models again except for Rapiers. That's good, no?
Jidmah wrote:Unless you are a tournament/league player. Legends is usually banned from those
Yes, sorry. They're out for competitive.
Why? Death Guard and Thousand Sons are still Legions, they should have Legion units. All of the snowflake marines get access to their fw units. This looks worse and worse for Chaos.
Because the new Legends document says that any datasheet using Death Guard or Thousand Sons as its <Legion> are considered Legends. So, you can use a Terrax-Pattern Termite, but if you give it the Death Guard <Legion>, it becomes Legend.
Yeah, I get that. That was my point: why? Why do Death Guard and Thousand Sons only get to use Legion units as Legends? Are they separating the Legions that much? They didn't do this to the Loyalist Dogs.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm amazed. It's not a slapdash copypasta job.
To some degree. Already noticed that the Lamenters chapter master (Phoros) has stealth armor since he was after the Raptors' one (Issadon)...
Yeah, I've got to think that's a mistake considering he runs around with a giant chain-glaive super killing people. The question now is, what does FAQ support look like for Legends? They're meant to be a one-and-done never to be updated again, but do they still get a one-time errata?
Not Online!!! wrote: because you could have a singular dread entry, with an option to upgrade into either?
And what benefit is there to this other than saving page space?
Weren't you earlier (understandably) complaining about silly duplication of some primaris units in the new marine codex (such as the gravis captains) instead of making them one datasheet with options? Same thing.
Gravis captains, maybe. Complaining about ironclad vs regular dread is just dumb, though. Two units with different statlines, purposes, weapons (to the point nothing except bolter you can attach to CCW is shared on both lists) - you might as well call for necrons and eldar to be rolled into one entry, would be equally bright idea.
Red Corsair wrote: Currently marines can cheat the rule of three in an incredible amount of areas just due to the sheer volume of data sheets they have that are pretty redundant.
I mean, Jesus Christ, the new land speeders and predators are each 3 separate datasheets rather then having upgrades listed meaning you can take 9 of either (more if the speeders are squadrons).
Or maybe, just maybe, these particular sheets are duplicated so you can play fluffy lists. Did that simple thought occur to you?
There are chapters fielding armored companies. SM army list with 2x autocannon predator, 2x las predator with some tacs in rhinos doesn't break the game. It does allow for fluffy IH or AC force though. Ditto for speeders, these are main support for assault company. Last time I checked, no land speeder in the game was broken, too (besides usual FW crap, one model is being spammed on tournaments right now). Being able to play fluffy, non-OP lists is bad how again?
Well, it seems Chaplain Dreadnoughts got the ability to go Mortis. That makes me happy.
But Siege Dreadnoughts no longer exist. That makes me sad.
I'm not sure how to take all this. Gleeful depression?
BaronIveagh wrote: ... some of the units in this also appear in the book...
They do?
Yeah, IIRC I saw at least one of the gun platforms still in the book. Norn Queen Alexis was showing it off on her channel and complaining about the Avenger nerf.
Does anyone else think it’s weird that only a couple of the Elysian special units made it in? There was a lot of other stuff in the range different to normal guard.
Jadenim wrote: Does anyone else think it’s weird that only a couple of the Elysian special units made it in? There was a lot of other stuff in the range different to normal guard.
no because it goes to show the general care of legends rules, i.e. non.
best hope for owner of these, that gw updates the IG line and these units show up there.
reality, thomas the drunk intern doing legends duty couldn't be bothered. Just like he couldn't be bothered with propperly pricing units or understanding as to wtf a quad launcher has lost on a hwt.
BaronIveagh wrote: So, here's a question: some of the units in this also appear in the book, with the same rules, apparently. So, are they legal or not?
And some of these are still in production, like the Stormhammer.
The answer is they’re all legal, even in Matched Play.
If you mean “will people who pretend all games are tournaments and enjoy finding reasons why people can’t use their lovely minis collection try and stop folk using things with any wafer thin sliver of doubt as their evidence?” why, yes, they will.
The general consensus is that the vast majority of players have no issues playing against legends outside of actual organized events (tournaments/leagues).
Jidmah wrote: The general consensus is that the vast majority of players has no issues playing against legends outside of actual organized events (tournaments/leagues).
I see it more as a "cover your assets" kind of thing.
Stop whining about these rules! They're free and we never said they were competitive play!
I see it more as a "cover your assets" kind of thing.
Stop whining about these rules! They're free and we never said they were competitive play!
Yes, but it doesn't answer the Tournament legal/Not Tournament Legal question. If they're in both the current FW book *and* legends, are they tourney legal or not? It makes things a bit confusing is all, and a pain in the ass to tournament organizers.
Everything is legal, it's just that Legends rules won't see their point cost revised. That's their only argument about tournaments not wanting to include Legends.
Of course, since for now, no other point revision has been made for the compendium, there's no reason to forbid Legends until it does.
Other than bad faith arguments from people not wanting to see Legends units in their opponent's army.
Sarouan wrote: Everything is legal, it's just that Legends rules won't see their point cost revised. That's their only argument about tournaments not wanting to include Legends.
Of course, since for now, no other point revision has been made for the compendium, there's no reason to forbid Legends until it does.
Other than bad faith arguments from people not wanting to see Legends units in their opponent's army.
There's another reason: Discourage pay to win enviroment where those who can afford to buy OOP model for hundreds of euro's have distinct advantage.
To have legends available in tournament tournaments should allow heavy use of proxies as well to be fair.
Sarouan wrote: Everything is legal, it's just that Legends rules won't see their point cost revised. That's their only argument about tournaments not wanting to include Legends.
Of course, since for now, no other point revision has been made for the compendium, there's no reason to forbid Legends until it does.
Other than bad faith arguments from people not wanting to see Legends units in their opponent's army.
There's another reason: Discourage pay to win enviroment where those who can afford to buy OOP model for hundreds of euro's have distinct advantage.
To have legends available in tournament tournaments should allow heavy use of proxies as well to be fair.
This is 40k, tneva82 - it is all "buy-the-right-army-to-win"...
You clearly haven't heard of the MtG Vintage tournament format. You go play that if you think 40k is for poor people. Out of print stuff to win tournaments can get really expensive.
If an out-of print model from ten years ago would turn into an I-Win-Button, you can bet your hat that its price would immediately explode on the second hand market, and with legends being legends, that model would never be changed again.
Being able to keep playing those models everywhere but in tournaments is good compromise for everyone.
Yeah but GW didn't say they're banned in tournaments. In fact, they seem to have fallen over themselves with the speed they went to declare that TOs can do whatever they want.
"Dear tournament organizers, if we catch you allowing legends in your events, we will send Matt Ward over and have him read from his latest novel Draigo with a megaphone. Afterwards, he will break the legs of anyone still standing. - Kind Regards, Kevin Rountree"
Sarouan wrote: Everything is legal, it's just that Legends rules won't see their point cost revised. That's their only argument about tournaments not wanting to include Legends.
Of course, since for now, no other point revision has been made for the compendium, there's no reason to forbid Legends until it does.
Other than bad faith arguments from people not wanting to see Legends units in their opponent's army.
There's another reason: Discourage pay to win enviroment where those who can afford to buy OOP model for hundreds of euro's have distinct advantage.
To have legends available in tournament tournaments should allow heavy use of proxies as well to be fair.
This is 40k, tneva82 - it is all "buy-the-right-army-to-win"...
Shhhh.... You'll ruin people's delusions of grandeur when they defeat their opponents "totally OP" Mortis Dreadnought.
Jidmah wrote: You clearly haven't heard of the MtG Vintage tournament format. You go play that if you think 40k is for poor people. Out of print stuff to win tournaments can get really expensive.
If an out-of print model from ten years ago would turn into an I-Win-Button, you can bet your hat that its price would immediately explode on the second hand market, and with legends being legends, that model would never be changed again.
Being able to keep playing those models everywhere but in tournaments is good compromise for everyone.
Good way to win vintage: be a Magic Player since Revised.
That said, though, not only does Legends have some big holes, but again, we run into the issue of old units coming back into circulation. Which has happened with GW before. As I've said, this will be a huge headache for some time to come, particularly since it's clear that internal communication in GW has clearly not improved.
LOL, the Ork Battlefortress doesn't list what weapons it comes with.
That being stated, I do like that the Kroot Knarlok has rules (and points) again. for just 65 points that thing will bring the pain with a bolt thrower and kroot rifle.
90% of all FW units ive seen in my area were recasts or 3D printed.
Its left a sour taste in my own experiences.
I've expected a big Axe on FW after GWs house treatment of it's own kits. If conversions and 3rd party bitz were such a problem, FW was definitely contributing.
Jadenim wrote: Does anyone else think it’s weird that only a couple of the Elysian special units made it in? There was a lot of other stuff in the range different to normal guard.
What else was so different that a Eylsian Drop Troops Regiment with Regimental Trait wouldn't cover? This could be a bit of new codex future-proofing here.
Jadenim wrote: Does anyone else think it’s weird that only a couple of the Elysian special units made it in? There was a lot of other stuff in the range different to normal guard.
What else was so different that a Eylsian Drop Troops Regiment with Regimental Trait wouldn't cover? This could be a bit of new codex future-proofing here.
I didn’t actually put it in my original post, but that was where my mind was going; are they actually going to put Elysian traits in the core codex?
cuda1179 wrote: Okay, bit of a late reply here, but I just got my copy and I was looking through things. WTF happened to the Rapier????
Imperial versions used to have two crew with bolt pistols, now it's one crew with a bolter and it counts as one model with the Rapier carriage.
However, the Chaos version still comes with 2 crew that count as separate models. Ah, GW, thanks for the inconsistency.
if you find that wierd, take a look at martial legacy and the Chaos vehicles, some of the rarest don't need to pay CP f.e.
Or the chaos fellbalde, with 25 men transport capacity and diffrent ammo compared to the regular fellblade.
It's worth noting that DG's new legion trait will affect vehicles, so it's very likely that all these vehicle will be able to use legion traits in the future. Enjoy your +1 ld on tanks dear word bearers
Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
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