- I get a 1/2 chance of firing a single weapon at BS6+ if I don't explode.
Also pretty pissed that they're dropping the Stormhammer, despite continuing to sell it.
I'm not sure I understand. In the end this is better than the old doctrine isn't it? The old one didn't have anything for vehicles and this new one at least allows for a 50% chance of one last attack. Not to bad if you have a flamer (or Malcador Infernus). Also if this works on Cyclops it is also a small buff. And as Infantry and Cavalry do not degrade they can make that attack at full BS/WS.
EDIT: I misread, the last attack is just for vehicles and characters. Still the Cyclops, Marshal, Death Rider Commander work.
Wow, that must be a real right shaft to DKoK players. The doctrine is arguably worse than Valhallans, who are better with their morale trait AND their tank trait, which doesn't rely on them dying to trigger it.
And not just Sisters of Battle. The Sisters of Silence Kharon Pattern Acquisitor has apparently been consigned to the Legends hellsewer.
I don't think it ever had 40K rules, or did it?
Nope, and it probably never will at this rate.
GW don't really know what to do with the sisters, they should have just been an elite option for the Custodes but they sit in a really weird place where nobody would take them even if they could figure out how.
The Kharon model looks bad ass and its galling that you can't actually run it in 40k
I guess I don't need my 3 upgrades for corsairs anymore sadly. My favorite and a very rich army gone b.c GW can't take 2 hours to write rules and are focing all rules to have models.
I am just going to add my two cents in this. Everyone is entitled to their response as to this post.
1. I for one am glad that Games Workshop is releasing a book that allows us to play our Forge World models in Warhammer 40K 9th edition.
2. I like how they handled the Death Korps of Krieg doctrine, and look forward to any other improvements the other models have.
3. Solomon Iok and Lugft Huron are in the book while Zhufor will be a Legends character. AN MIA INQUISITOR AND THE FUTURE HURON BLACKHEART AREN'T LEGENDS. A CHAOS TERMINATOR, THAT IS STILL ALIVE, HAS NOT TURNED AND IS NOT USEABLE IN ANY KHORNE WARBAND, WORLD EATER OR NO, IS.
AN !@#$@!@$#$ MIA INQUISITOR AND THE FUTURE HURON !%@#$%!#% BLACKHEART, NO.
ZHUFOR, YES.
Thank you for reading this. In addition, I may or may not switch to Age of Sigmar in the near future.
Edit: WHI THE !@#!%#@!@#$ IS VALTHEX ALSO IN THERE!?!?!?!?!
Because why charge £25 for 10 pages of rules for my army when they can charge £40... (And FAQ it 2 weeks later making the book out of date)
I'm not sure if im going to bother with this one. Might just wait around until some good soul from my group is willing to let me take a look at CWE rules.
so an entire edition and an updated book for 9th edition and they still leave out a ton of 30k Forge world models that are still in-print.
What total garbage.
If they make the model still it should have current edition rules when they do an update. GW is such a trash company, glad i dont support their book printing rip offs and havent for years.
Its a pass from me after all the bits they messed up with last FW indexes and had to FAQ or simply never fixed (Hades Breaching drills with Engineer squads not in book despite being sold together on FW, etc)
That and the fact with the way lockdowns are going I wont get a 3rd game in this year :-(
Guessing £25 if only based on the last index and their last few softbacks.
Necron codex is 30£. Good luck getting cheaper than that. More likely 35-40£ band.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos45 wrote: so an entire edition and an updated book for 9th edition and they still leave out a ton of 30k Forge world models that are still in-print.
What total garbage.
If they make the model still it should have current edition rules when they do an update. GW is such a trash company, glad i dont support their book printing rip offs and havent for years.
30k. 40k. You do know 40k imperium has lost lots of tech? 40k shouldn't be 30k+1. If anything 30k is where most of the units should be usable while 40k has smaller amount.
Sorry 7th is such a step back, I havent found anyone to play a 7th edition game since 8th editions launched and thats living in 4 different cities in 2 different countries....
This type of rules writing by GW is basically saying okay buy our stuff but just know we have no plans to support all of our products going forward so it might just be good to set on a shelf and become worthless for what you bought it for which is to play a game.
30K, like Necromunda, etc.. a different game based more or less based on rules from a different edition of 40K?
There's no more necessity to have everything in 30K have rules for 40K than there is to have everything in Necromunda or Kill Team or Blackstone have rules for 40K. Or have rules for Blood Bowl stuff to use in Age of Sigmar, or whatever.
If they get around to it, cool, but that stuff is always more of a bonus to use outside of the game these models are intended for.
If anything, I'd prefer if they kept the 40K-rules-for-30K-models such as the Custodes Tanks and Relic Dreads, etc.. more low key like rules for Gellerpox Infected, etc.. They should be usable for fans of the models, but should ideally be a tier below the actual 40K stuff and not warp the 40K meta in ways that some of these FW models have done in the past.
Sorry 7th is such a step back, I havent found anyone to play a 7th edition game since 8th editions launched and thats living in 4 different cities in 2 different countries....
This type of rules writing by GW is basically saying okay buy our stuff but just know we have no plans to support all of our products going forward so it might just be good to set on a shelf and become worthless for what you bought it for which is to play a game.
Says alot.
depends, core 7th from GW was a clusterfeth,
30 k is however based on 7th but a lot less rubbish and handled better, making it actually pretty good working.
Sunny Side Up wrote: 30K, like Necromunda, etc.. a different game based more or less based on rules from a different edition of 40K?
There's no more necessity to have everything in 30K have rules for 40K than there is to have everything in Necromunda or Kill Team or Blackstone have rules for 40K. Or have rules for Blood Bowl stuff to use in Age of Sigmar, or whatever.
If they get around to it, cool, but that stuff is always more of a bonus to use outside of the game these models are intended for.
If anything, I'd prefer if they kept the 40K-rules-for-30K-models such as the Custodes Tanks and Relic Dreads, etc.. more low key like rules for Gellerpox Infected, etc.. They should be usable for fans of the models, but should ideally be a tier below the actual 40K stuff and not warp the 40K meta in ways that some of these FW models have done in the past.
Name some of those fw units that "warped the meta" and explain how they did it, and how it was worse than stuff like Castellans, smash captains, Eldar flyers etc.. of course people play fw units because their fans of them. That's why most people play any model or faction. Only the most WAAC players would ever play a unit that they hate. Fw units are important to some factions. Custodes would barely have an army without fw.
Sorry 7th is such a step back, I havent found anyone to play a 7th edition game since 8th editions launched and thats living in 4 different cities in 2 different countries....
This type of rules writing by GW is basically saying okay buy our stuff but just know we have no plans to support all of our products going forward so it might just be good to set on a shelf and become worthless for what you bought it for which is to play a game.
Says alot.
So? 30k stays in more logical, better and more balanced system. Good for them.
I've come to the conclusion that you don't actually buy GW rules but rather pay for a one to two year license to use them. It's basically a printed equivalent of DLC that unlocks something already on the disc. Genius!
Sunny Side Up wrote: 30K, like Necromunda, etc.. a different game based more or less based on rules from a different edition of 40K?
There's no more necessity to have everything in 30K have rules for 40K than there is to have everything in Necromunda or Kill Team or Blackstone have rules for 40K. Or have rules for Blood Bowl stuff to use in Age of Sigmar, or whatever.
If they get around to it, cool, but that stuff is always more of a bonus to use outside of the game these models are intended for.
If anything, I'd prefer if they kept the 40K-rules-for-30K-models such as the Custodes Tanks and Relic Dreads, etc.. more low key like rules for Gellerpox Infected, etc.. They should be usable for fans of the models, but should ideally be a tier below the actual 40K stuff and not warp the 40K meta in ways that some of these FW models have done in the past.
Name some of those fw units that "warped the meta" and explain how they did it, and how it was worse than stuff like Castellans, smash captains, Eldar flyers etc.. of course people play fw units because their fans of them. That's why most people play any model or faction. Only the most WAAC players would ever play a unit that they hate. Fw units are important to some factions. Custodes would barely have an army without fw.
But but but Renegade Smite dude worse than Castellon! Worse than Roboute Razorbacks!
But but but Sicarian Tank worse than 10 free Razorbacks!
These people don't have a clue what they're talking about ever.
warboss wrote: I've come to the conclusion that you don't actually buy GW rules but rather pay for a one to two year license to use them. It's basically a printed equivalent of DLC that unlocks something already on the disc. Genius!
Actually it is worse... because they sell the balance patches separetly aswell
parakuribo wrote: I am just going to add my two cents in this. Everyone is entitled to their response as to this post.
1. I for one am glad that Games Workshop is releasing a book that allows us to play our Forge World models in Warhammer 40K 9th edition.
2. I like how they handled the Death Korps of Krieg doctrine, and look forward to any other improvements the other models have.
3. Solomon Iok and Lugft Huron are in the book while Zhufor will be a Legends character. AN MIA INQUISITOR AND THE FUTURE HURON BLACKHEART AREN'T LEGENDS. A CHAOS TERMINATOR, THAT IS STILL ALIVE, HAS NOT TURNED AND IS NOT USEABLE IN ANY KHORNE WARBAND, WORLD EATER OR NO, IS.
AN !@#$@!@$#$ MIA INQUISITOR AND THE FUTURE HURON !%@#$%!#% BLACKHEART, NO.
ZHUFOR, YES.
Thank you for reading this. In addition, I may or may not switch to Age of Sigmar in the near future.
Edit: WHI THE !@#!%#@!@#$ IS VALTHEX ALSO IN THERE!?!?!?!?!
gw's policy is if a unit had a model in the recent past, but no current model, it will be part of legends. It doesn't matter what state the unit has in the lore
mortar_crew wrote: I must confess, Renegades and Heretics loss is growing on me...
All this resin stuff no more covered...
ib4
"JuSt PlAy GuArD."
I am mildly curious about the legends ruleset... i don't have high hopes and fully expect all the 8th nonsense beeing directly Copy pasted and non of the rules that were STILL broken fixed...
I still don't understand why they didn't at least turn R&H into something akin to the GSC "doctrine" so you can at least field your R&H army with CSM. It wouldn't have been perfect, but it's way closer to useable.
I've been out of the loop, do we know if the bigger chapters are finally getting their own tactics? Hoping that's what the Chapters of Renown is.
parkuribo, legends isn't about timeline, it's about being able to field a model that they've made rules for. It sucks that a character you like isn't represented, I lost some too, but it's pretty easy to represent most of them with generic characters, for instance just a terminator lord.
I've been out of the loop, do we know if the bigger chapters are finally getting their own tactics? Hoping that's what the Chapters of Renown is.
Sounds like they're publishing full rules for Blood Ravens, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, and Astral Claws. Dunno if they'll get more than just a chapter tactic though.
I've been out of the loop, do we know if the bigger chapters are finally getting their own tactics? Hoping that's what the Chapters of Renown is.
Sounds like they're publishing full rules for Blood Ravens, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, and Astral Claws. Dunno if they'll get more than just a chapter tactic though.
Nah, based on previous GW efforts its likely to say :
Chapters of Renown:
Other than specifically named units which have the Chapters Keyword, <BLOOD RAVENS>, <RED SCORPIONS>, <MINOTAURS> or <ASTRAL CLAWS>, these 4 Chapters may take no other units from this book.
I've been out of the loop, do we know if the bigger chapters are finally getting their own tactics? Hoping that's what the Chapters of Renown is.
Sounds like they're publishing full rules for Blood Ravens, Red Scorpions, Minotaurs, and Astral Claws. Dunno if they'll get more than just a chapter tactic though.
I wonder which non marine sub sub factions are getting any special rules.... guess just DKOK then.....yeah thats about right.
parakuribo wrote: I am just going to add my two cents in this. Everyone is entitled to their response as to this post.
1. I for one am glad that Games Workshop is releasing a book that allows us to play our Forge World models in Warhammer 40K 9th edition.
2. I like how they handled the Death Korps of Krieg doctrine, and look forward to any other improvements the other models have.
3. Solomon Iok and Lugft Huron are in the book while Zhufor will be a Legends character. AN MIA INQUISITOR AND THE FUTURE HURON BLACKHEART AREN'T LEGENDS. A CHAOS TERMINATOR, THAT IS STILL ALIVE, HAS NOT TURNED AND IS NOT USEABLE IN ANY KHORNE WARBAND, WORLD EATER OR NO, IS.
AN !@#$@!@$#$ MIA INQUISITOR AND THE FUTURE HURON !%@#$%!#% BLACKHEART, NO.
ZHUFOR, YES.
Thank you for reading this. In addition, I may or may not switch to Age of Sigmar in the near future.
Edit: WHI THE !@#!%#@!@#$ IS VALTHEX ALSO IN THERE!?!?!?!?!
gw's policy is if a unit had a model in the recent past, but no current model, it will be part of legends. It doesn't matter what state the unit has in the lore
tneva82 wrote: 30k. 40k. You do know 40k imperium has lost lots of tech? 40k shouldn't be 30k+1. If anything 30k is where most of the units should be usable while 40k has smaller amount.
It absolutely SHOULD be 30K+1 because it IS 30K+1. 40K Imperium is far more advanced, thanks to 10.000 years of finding new STCs and new designs. Yes, they lost some stuff, but it was mostly very high end DAoT remains that absolutely wasn't common even in 30K, baseline is higher now. You could even see it on tabletop with CSM having no thunder hammers, storm shields, assault cannons, and a lot of other stuff until some inept GW writer that didn't read earlier lore started to hand out these like candy in both 40K and HH...
Gadzilla666 wrote: Name some of those fw units that "warped the meta" and explain how they did it, and how it was worse than stuff like Castellans, smash captains, Eldar flyers etc.. of course people play fw units because their fans of them. That's why most people play any model or faction. Only the most WAAC players would ever play a unit that they hate. Fw units are important to some factions. Custodes would barely have an army without fw.
You having a laugh? Never mind all the leviathans, contemptors, custode gak and other vastly broken stuff (to the point rule of 3 had to be introduced after FW psyker spam deleted whole armies first turn) that made all knight armies and eldar flying circus look like harmless children, FW couldn't even balance their own SM vs SM game, making any attempts at defending them laughable.
To give three examples, Custodes as a faction. Imagine custode HQ that is so broken he can duel two primarchs and win easily. That's smash captain squared, and it wasn't even the worst thing they could bring to bear. Custodes were in fact so OP they almost sunk HH and forced the edition change. If you didn't hear about that, you know nothing about HH balance.
Then you have Magnus and Lorgar. Remember old 7th edition invisibility? Now imagine it on monstrous creature lord of war and you will get unit that can easily duel three other primarchs at once, and win. Or wreck 5 Castellans, no sweat. Balanced!
And of course, HH artillery, which could drown enemies in 40 pie plates per turn thanks to very cheap (in points) platforms. Besides taking hours to establish how many hits you had and killing your opponent with sheer boredom, you didn't see this spammed only thanks to massive $$$ cost it needed. And that's just 3 examples, there were dozens of similarly broken things, all of them vastly worse than silly 40K stuff above, only held back by gigantic resin price tag (which only worked until people started spamming recasts). Hell, just look at most common HQ weapon in HH, paragon blade, these funny "smash" captains from 40K would give their left arm for anything even half as deadly...
tneva82 wrote: 30k. 40k. You do know 40k imperium has lost lots of tech? 40k shouldn't be 30k+1. If anything 30k is where most of the units should be usable while 40k has smaller amount.
It absolutely SHOULD be 30K+1 because it IS 30K+1. 40K Imperium is far more advanced, thanks to 10.000 years of finding new STCs and new designs. Yes, they lost some stuff, but it was mostly very high end DAoT remains that absolutely wasn't common even in 30K, baseline is higher now. You could even see it on tabletop with CSM having no thunder hammers, storm shields, assault cannons, and a lot of other stuff until some inept GW writer that didn't read earlier lore started to hand out these like candy in both 40K and HH...
Gadzilla666 wrote: Name some of those fw units that "warped the meta" and explain how they did it, and how it was worse than stuff like Castellans, smash captains, Eldar flyers etc.. of course people play fw units because their fans of them. That's why most people play any model or faction. Only the most WAAC players would ever play a unit that they hate. Fw units are important to some factions. Custodes would barely have an army without fw.
You having a laugh? Never mind all the leviathans, contemptors, custode gak and other vastly broken stuff (to the point rule of 3 had to be introduced after FW psyker spam deleted whole armies first turn) that made all knight armies and eldar flying circus look like harmless children, FW couldn't even balance their own SM vs SM game, making any attempts at defending them laughable.
To give three examples, Custodes as a faction. Imagine custode HQ that is so broken he can duel two primarchs and win easily. That's smash captain squared, and it wasn't even the worst thing they could bring to bear. Custodes were in fact so OP they almost sunk HH and forced the edition change. If you didn't hear about that, you know nothing about HH balance.
Then you have Magnus and Lorgar. Remember old 7th edition invisibility? Now imagine it on monstrous creature lord of war and you will get unit that can easily duel three other primarchs at once, and win. Or wreck 5 Castellans, no sweat. Balanced!
And of course, HH artillery, which could drown enemies in 40 pie plates per turn thanks to very cheap (in points) platforms. Besides taking hours to establish how many hits you had and killing your opponent with sheer boredom, you didn't see this spammed only thanks to massive $$$ cost it needed. And that's just 3 examples, there were dozens of similarly broken things, all of them vastly worse than silly 40K stuff above, only held back by gigantic resin price tag (which only worked until people started spamming recasts). Hell, just look at most common HQ weapon in HH, paragon blade, these funny "smash" captains from 40K would give their left arm for anything even half as deadly...
I dunno. I feel like the utter destruction of mars during heresy would have amounted to far more tech begin lost than to whats been found since. If you think about it. Pre unity mechanicum has been roaming the galaxy since the DAOT has ended predating the unity wars on terra and BIg E coming out to the fore to be a major player.
Despite having current models in the catalog, the Stormhammer and Sky Talon are missing from the table of contents. Deliberate? Or just overlooked in a bit of copypasta laziness?
The minute FW decides to transfer 30K to 9th ed type rules I will never support them again. A pretty small % of the 30K community want that. That would be the biggest slap to the face yet.
More so than dozens of models and customization bits being stripped from the range every year. (cause then I don't feel bad about continuing to buy them )
Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone. Or stuff that they don’t intend for 40K. Or just forgot.
Seriously, who actually fielded Sabre Defense Platforms?
And if you do, they’re lined up for Legends rules according to GeeDubs.
Rule Of Three brought in to curb Malefic Psykers? Nah mate it was to kill off the 7 Hive Tyrant lists. Doubling those Psyker’s points killed them.
I’m probably gonna get this book and find that my Relic Contemptors and Leviathan cost more now. Which is honestly fine. So long as my Thunderbolt stays good, as it accidentally is now, I’m happy. If they drop it to BS4+ I’ll be sad. I’m cautiously hopeful it won’t be junk like the mess the IA Indexes were. Cautiously...
JohnnyHell wrote: Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone. Or stuff that they don’t intend for 40K. Or just forgot.
Seriously, who actually fielded Sabre Defense Platforms?
And if you do, they’re lined up for Legends rules according to GeeDubs.
Rule Of Three brought in to curb Malefic Psykers? Nah mate it was to kill off the 7 Hive Tyrant lists. Doubling those Psyker’s points killed them.
I’m probably gonna get this book and find that my Relic Contemptors and Leviathan cost more now. Which is honestly fine. So long as my Thunderbolt stays good, as it accidentally is now, I’m happy. If they drop it to BS4+ I’ll be sad. I’m cautiously hopeful it won’t be junk like the mess the IA Indexes were. Cautiously...
Don't you think, if GW would be confident in this book, they'd tout it as the FW book? a must have for everyone?
As it stands it has been multiple times delayed and the supposed improved and happy DKoK don't look nearly as enticing as they should have.
maybee i am just to salty atm to look at this unbiased but i think optimism, even just cautious one, is a bit misplaced here.
It's a shame that they've removed the Centaur. I guess it was pretty awful and impractical, but it's a cute little tank with a lot of personality, and removing the rules for it just seems petty.
Removing the DKoK Grenadiers I kind of get, and I suppose you could field them as Scions, so there's that, but in my mind the Grenadiers with their skull gasmasks, as well as the Centaur, the Thudd guns and the cavalry are some of the most distinctive Krieg models.
I have no idea how 40k treats officers and command squads in the current edition, but presumably you can still use the Quartermaster as an officer. As a medic the Quartermaster unit was a bit of a waste of points.
At some point Gw will redo the basilisk kit and make it a dual kit... I’m thinking the second variant will be either medusa or griffin or some crazy new weapon like they did with wvyern for the hydra remake.
The unit had some history. How many kits started out as core GW models first before going FW.
I think just that. More units have crossed over from FW to 40k plastic, than the other way around. Baneblades, Trygon, Hydra are a few which come to mind.
I'm gonna pick the book up. Curious to see what changed about shadow specters and Lucius Pattern Drop Pods.
I get that a lot of people are rightly frustrated here, but doesn't this lead more credence to the rumors of a dedicated R&H and/or (albite unlikely) a Corsairs codex? Or at the very least, some substantial refresh in the next CSM and Eldari codices? I hate to say wait and see, but.... wait and see?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also oof... no more Gryphone Chimera. Hopefully the autocannon is added as an option in the AM book.
KillerAngel wrote: I get that a lot of people are rightly frustrated here, but doesn't this lead more credence to the rumors of a dedicated R&H and/or (albite unlikely) a Corsairs codex? Or at the very least, some substantial refresh in the next CSM and Eldari codices? I hate to say wait and see, but.... wait and see?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also oof... no more Gryphone Chimera. Hopefully the autocannon is added as an option in the AM book.
No, it doesn't GW could've easily answered the players questions at the time, we even had a small campaign going and until now GW has not deemed it necessary to even answer.
So no.
Yeah, nope. One might still hold out hope that the Servants of the Abyss is a precursor to a renegade line, but it's pretty silly to expect that further culling the Corsairs would mean they get anything ever.
Have anyFW lists returned from the dead? The siege-oriented Marine list, the Ork dread list the Tyrant's Legion come to mind, who even remembers those? Like Elysians and R&H, probably each of them could have been maintained with a page on the subfaction and a few datasheets to represent things that don't have easy equivalents.
SOA were THE instance were gw could've thrown out a WD list that would work and see how the traitor guardsmen dark mech etc do sales wise (btw the models did sell like hotcakes over here even though monopose AND limited) and promise to look into it in the future.
GW never bothered so why should that change now?
The first thing worth noting is that the Death Korps gain access to the full Astra Militarum arsenal from the codex. Now, the tanks, infantry, and auxiliaries available to other Regiments can also be used in this army – those Ogryns already come with gas masks ready to go!
The Death Korps are a particularly renowned regiment of course, so they also gain access to a bunch of units that no other regiment has. There are five updated datasheets that are bespoke to the Krieg sub-faction, from the Death Korps Marshal to the iconic Combat Engineer Squads who exemplify their regiment’s mastery of siegecraft.
Several other Death Korps of Krieg units that are no longer in production will be getting Warhammer Legends rules in November. This means that they can still be used in matched, narrative and open play games for those players who own the models and want to continue using them, though they won’t be considered a current part of the game for the purposes of official competitive events.
Death Korps Marshall Karis Venner
Death Korps Grenadier Squad
Quartermaster Cadre Squad
Death Rider Commissar
Storm Chimera
Alongside these, there will also be Warhammer Legends rules on the way for dozens of other classic Warhammer 40,000 units that are not currently on sale. These will include rare vehicles types, unusual Dreadnought patterns, obscure xenos contraptions and other classic Forge World units, so players can continue to use their full collection in their games.
i like how DKoK get's alot of their core identity stripped, especially for former assault list players which relied upon grenadiers.. much great, much wow i am sure thos ogryns will compensate that very well.
Kanluwen wrote: Those "former assault list players" will be able to use the Grenadier rules from Legends.
Literally all this does is make DKoK into a Guard+1 situation. They have signature units plus the Guard codex at their disposal.
Kan, I get you have a big bias against DKoK and their way of guard warfare, but I really doubt most DKoK players see it that way, especially when Grenadiers are (or were) one of the best sculpts in their range.
Let's just say this, if all Leviathan dreadnoughts for both Chaos/Marines get Legended, would people be happy? Possibly for some people with regards to the competitive scene, but there's a lot of people who just got their big resin pieces invalidated, even with Legend use. Consider the fact that the Leviathan isn't even a sub-faction defining unit, so the loss of Grenadiers and a lot of the other DKoK units just are salt upon the wound of questionable doctrine rules.
Kanluwen wrote: Those "former assault list players" will be able to use the Grenadier rules from Legends.
Literally all this does is make DKoK into a Guard+1 situation. They have signature units plus the Guard codex at their disposal.
Kan, I get you have a big bias against DKoK and their way of guard warfare, but I really doubt most DKoK players see it that way, especially when Grenadiers are (or were) one of the best sculpts in their range.
Let's just say this, if all Leviathan dreadnoughts for both Chaos/Marines get Legended, would people be happy? Possibly for some people with regards to the competitive scene, but there's a lot of people who just got their big resin pieces invalidated, even with Legend use. Consider the fact that the Leviathan isn't even a sub-faction defining unit, so the loss of Grenadiers and a lot of the other DKoK units just are salt upon the wound of questionable doctrine rules.
It goes in essence against the very identity of the subfaction and frankly if we can and have to endure marine supplement after marine supplement GW could've been easily enough bothered to keep atleast this non marine faction atleast true to it's identity.
A shame to see shotguns with carcass shots go the way of the dodo. They were always very fun to use. Specially usefull to kill repentias in droves.
I like the heavy buffs to the Death Rider Cavalry. And I'll miss death korps having +1 WS. I always liked playing my horde charging into meele. And Krieg having a couple special units is not that much different from Cadia and Catachan having a couple of special characters.
With Grenadiers being removed to Legends and the ability to build my Assault Brigade removed from events (which comprise most of my play opportunity these days), coupled with some other stuff going on with the game, it really looks like GW just does not want me spending income on their products or engaging with 9th Edition once venues open back up.
I really can live with the garbage doctrine, it's not like DKoK special rules have really ever been particularly good and they've always paid an absurd price for their flavor. Hell, one can just use the Catachan doctrine instead anyway, it broadly does the same things (reflects better leadership, better CC ability, and something for the big guns). I'm not terribly butthurt about stuff like Storm Chimeras or Characters that never got models or the specifics of wargear like Carcass shells.
I really just wanted Grenadiers that could be equipped like normal Stormtrooper/Scion units and be taken as Troops without the DS option, with access to Chimeras and the ability to just be treated as the same Regiment as the rest of the force instead of the separate Tempestus faction. Didn't think that was hard, they made it work in previous editions, but apparently nope.
"For added punch, you can opt for a Death Rider Command Squadron, who all have an extra attack and take up none of your precious Detachment slots when taken alongside your HQ, a Squadron Commander."
Foreshadowing Guard getting no slot command squads in the future?
Kanluwen wrote: Until we see the Legends entry, I feel it's a bit early to say that they don't do what you want
Even if they make all the army allowances in the Legends entry, as most of my play in recent years comes from events (usually the once-a-month tournament at a FLGS), where Legends units aren't sanctioned, it may not make much difference as those 60 Grenadiers will have to sit on the shelf either way.
If they just let Stormtroopers have access to Chimeras in the basic Codex (as they did before 2014...), I'd be less irritated, as just running them as Counts-As Tempestus would be fine, but that's not much of an option sadly.
Twoshoes23 wrote: "For added punch, you can opt for a Death Rider Command Squadron, who all have an extra attack and take up none of your precious Detachment slots when taken alongside your HQ, a Squadron Commander."
Foreshadowing Guard getting no slot command squads in the future?
Possibly. This is what I've been talking about when I say this book could give us some clues as to how the new codexes will work.
I really wish they'd show us some stuff for other factions. This book has units for most of the factions in 40k, you'd think they'd want to generate some hype for everyone, in order to sell it. Maybe show a datasheet or two per faction. Show us they actually fixed some stuff.
JohnnyHell wrote: Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone.
Yeah, like the Chaplain Dread.
"Hardly anyone uses it" sounds like a wonderful dismissal there Johnny. Also quite callous.
The Chaplain Dread was OP by accident and OOP when it hit that status. Utterly poor example.
Don’t @ me with I’vE aLwAyS lOvEd ThE fLuFf oF ChApLaIn DrEaDs... Post was not callous in the slightest, and my post went on to list other categories of stuff that’s gone. But you cherry pick away, sigh.
100% with Vaktathi here. I don't feel FW needs to give special treatment or even very unique rules to their stuff, but I 100% believe that they should have kept army-defining units, even if all it is is a variant on something standard.
It takes so little effort to swap a special rule or allow a different weapon loadout or add something via a stratagem or whatever. Sure, be conservative and don't do a ton so it doesn't take up a lot of extra space; even dump cool things like vehicles or characters who can be reasonably approximated by vanilla versions (there's not that much difference between my power sword and storm shield named character vs. a vanilla captain that doesn't have a cool special rule or extra damage). But leaving out army-level options is just crappy to your customers and takes so little effort to not do, esp. when already legends so they're like 90%+ done, perhaps minus GW's questionable balancing.
What are you talking about? The SM codex is horribly bloated, is made up of a million rules from last edition that were used to successively patch a codex until it went from mediocre to OP (and rather than use the edition as an opportunity to streamline that they compounded it, while making old marines closer to new marines without making them actually equivalent (meaning a ton of redundancies) and GW just released a variant set of "space wolves" that are literally identical to the regular box.
There's nothing elegant or simple about this design philosophy.
JohnnyHell wrote: The Chaplain Dread was OP by accident and OOP when it hit that status. Utterly poor example.
Don’t @ me with I’vE aLwAyS lOvEd ThE fLuFf oF ChApLaIn DrEaDs... Post was not callous in the slightest, and my post went on to list other categories of stuff that’s gone. But you cherry pick away, sigh.
I actually don't really give a damn about the Chaplain Dread.
I'm more interested in people dismissing this as no big deal.
And it's not cherry picking. It's brevity.
"Who uses sabre platforms anyway, amiriteguys?"
Probably the people who bought them, so who are you to dismiss them?
JohnnyHell wrote: The Chaplain Dread was OP by accident and OOP when it hit that status. Utterly poor example.
Don’t @ me with I’vE aLwAyS lOvEd ThE fLuFf oF ChApLaIn DrEaDs... Post was not callous in the slightest, and my post went on to list other categories of stuff that’s gone. But you cherry pick away, sigh.
I actually don't really give a damn about the Chaplain Dread.
I'm more interested in people dismissing this as no big deal.
And it's not cherry picking. It's brevity.
"Who uses sabre platforms anyway, amiriteguys?"
Probably the people who bought them, so who are you to dismiss them?
This sums it up for me. The old Kreig and Heretics lists were the golden age of FW for me. Alot of people put alot of time and effort and cold hard cash into these armies to have them dismissed out of hand with barely an acknowledgement whilst we get yet another Primaris Data sheet for Grey Reivers with beards...
JohnnyHell wrote: The Chaplain Dread was OP by accident and OOP when it hit that status. Utterly poor example.
Don’t @ me with I’vE aLwAyS lOvEd ThE fLuFf oF ChApLaIn DrEaDs... Post was not callous in the slightest, and my post went on to list other categories of stuff that’s gone. But you cherry pick away, sigh.
I actually don't really give a damn about the Chaplain Dread.
I'm more interested in people dismissing this as no big deal.
And it's not cherry picking. It's brevity.
"Who uses sabre platforms anyway, amiriteguys?"
Probably the people who bought them, so who are you to dismiss them?
This sums it up for me. The old Kreig and Heretics lists were the golden age of FW for me. Alot of people put alot of time and effort and cold hard cash into these armies to have them dismissed out of hand with barely an acknowledgement whilst we get yet another Primaris Data sheet for Grey Reivers with beards...
It really is a slap in the face when it really doesn't cost them anything to include rules for them that take up a few pages while they trip over themselves to provide bizarrely specific wargear loadouts for the next lieutenant or Captain variant. It smacks of the Kirby-Era "buy what we make" rather than "make what people want to buy" philosophy.
Yep, it's really something strange to me, since at one point special characters were the only basically static characters, while now all over the place there are artificial limitations because GW doesn't want people weapon swapping a plasma pistol or power axe or whatever. Like, sure, never make rules without a model again, but doesn't kitbashing mean people are using more of their kits?
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yep, it's really something strange to me, since at one point special characters were the only basically static characters, while now all over the place there are artificial limitations because GW doesn't want people weapon swapping a plasma pistol or power axe or whatever. Like, sure, never make rules without a model again, but doesn't kitbashing mean people are using more of their kits?
I think part of it is with their new focus on monopose clampack kits being the norm, usually with limited options, they treat the hobby aspect of kitbashing and conversions with kiddy gloves as if that's something that beginners can't or won't do. They act as if it's the exception and thus don't want to or ignore the fact that they likely can make more money by incentizing kitbashing. You can kinda see that mentality with the Easy-To-Build kits and the way they marketed contrast paints as an "finish painting models fast and easy" to newcomers rather than a paint line that supplements their existing range.
A cynical way of reading why they're doing this is that they're trying to direct the players to how they think the game should be played/models should be bought.
JohnnyHell wrote: The Chaplain Dread was OP by accident and OOP when it hit that status. Utterly poor example.
Don’t @ me with I’vE aLwAyS lOvEd ThE fLuFf oF ChApLaIn DrEaDs... Post was not callous in the slightest, and my post went on to list other categories of stuff that’s gone. But you cherry pick away, sigh.
I actually don't really give a damn about the Chaplain Dread.
I'm more interested in people dismissing this as no big deal.
And it's not cherry picking. It's brevity.
"Who uses sabre platforms anyway, amiriteguys?"
Probably the people who bought them, so who are you to dismiss them?
This sums it up for me. The old Kreig and Heretics lists were the golden age of FW for me. Alot of people put alot of time and effort and cold hard cash into these armies to have them dismissed out of hand with barely an acknowledgement whilst we get yet another Primaris Data sheet for Grey Reivers with beards...
Absolutely.
Being one of these people I cannot find a better way to put it.
Hah I love this bizarro world where I’m the bad guy and everyone has Sabre Platforms. That’s not gloating, disgraceful, callous... whatever adjective you may try and apply. It’s a ridiculous assertion that the removal of that unit affects vast swathes of the player base. It does not. And for all we know it will have Legends rules so you don’t even have to buy a book. Perspective is useful, though not if trying to frame me as the villain I guess, HBMC.
Seriously, people. You know GW only makes rules for stuff it sells now. It isn’t news, it shouldn’t be a shock, sure, be disappointed but direct it at GW. Not at a guy who says “but many of you don’t even play those units...”
If GW had removed units the majority of the world bought and use then HBMC might have a point. As it is, he doesn’t. More people have spent ten years going “I’m definitely going to get a DKoK army” than have actually bought one. I know it’s a popular niche force and it’s sad for anyone whose units have been moved to Legends. They are still playable... they aren’t gone. There are hardly any tournaments as the world is screwed. Again, perspective.
And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
JohnnyHell wrote: Hah I love this bizarro world where I’m the bad guy and everyone has Sabre Platforms. That’s not gloating, disgraceful, callous... whatever adjective you may try and apply. It’s a ridiculous assertion that the removal of that unit affects vast swathes of the player base. It does not. And for all we know it will have Legends rules so you don’t even have to buy a book. Perspective is useful, though not if trying to frame me as the villain I guess, HBMC.
Seriously, people. You know GW only makes rules for stuff it sells now. It isn’t news, it shouldn’t be a shock, sure, be disappointed but direct it at GW. Not at a guy who says “but many of you don’t even play those units...”
If GW had removed units the majority of the world bought and use then HBMC might have a point. As it is, he doesn’t. More people have spent ten years going “I’m definitely going to get a DKoK army” than have actually bought one. I know it’s a popular niche force and it’s sad for anyone whose units have been moved to Legends. They are still playable... they aren’t gone. There are hardly any tournaments as the world is screwed. Again, perspective.
And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
Whilest uncalled for, the underlined part is just frankly untrue, most organised events even before Covid allready banned Legends, and that did bleed over into more casual settings at FLGS not to mention that any balance update that GW paywalls but burdens upon all players via CA, turns these even into a worse state off disconect so by 1 edition or 2 edition later these units, might aswell not exist anymore.
JohnnyHell wrote: Hah I love this bizarro world where I’m the bad guy and everyone has Sabre Platforms. That’s not gloating, disgraceful, callous... whatever adjective you may try and apply. It’s a ridiculous assertion that the removal of that unit affects vast swathes of the player base. It does not. And for all we know it will have Legends rules so you don’t even have to buy a book. Perspective is useful, though not if trying to frame me as the villain I guess, HBMC.
Seriously, people. You know GW only makes rules for stuff it sells now. It isn’t news, it shouldn’t be a shock, sure, be disappointed but direct it at GW. Not at a guy who says “but many of you don’t even play those units...”
If GW had removed units the majority of the world bought and use then HBMC might have a point. As it is, he doesn’t. More people have spent ten years going “I’m definitely going to get a DKoK army” than have actually bought one. I know it’s a popular niche force and it’s sad for anyone whose units have been moved to Legends. They are still playable... they aren’t gone. There are hardly any tournaments as the world is screwed. Again, perspective.
And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
You realize legends rules are fairly irrelevant right? You basically get to see how things were when unit was still actually usable.
$65 U.S. + $10 shipping if you don't blow $120 in one go to get free shipping. The description says 222 datasheets vs the preview article's claim of 189. One of the two are apparently counting wrong.
Kanluwen wrote: Until we see the Legends entry, I feel it's a bit early to say that they don't do what you want
Is Legends stuff allowed at events now? Because I already know that in home games I can do whatever I want.
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JohnnyHell wrote: And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
I have no Sabre platforms. I do have four griffons, though. Maybe the Sabre was just one example, you know.
Plus, as said above, people paid for them, and it's not like they were OP to begin with.
Krieg owner here.i bought Kiev because I liked the models and rarely if ever used the rules. Were always garbage so I just proxies them as something else. Nothing has changed there although the suicidal vehicles is a nice touch.
But that is my personal opinion, other people can disagree
JohnnyHell wrote:Hah I love this bizarro world where I’m the bad guy and everyone has Sabre Platforms. That’s not gloating, disgraceful, callous... whatever adjective you may try and apply. It’s a ridiculous assertion that the removal of that unit affects vast swathes of the player base. It does not. And for all we know it will have Legends rules so you don’t even have to buy a book. Perspective is useful, though not if trying to frame me as the villain I guess, HBMC.
Seriously, people. You know GW only makes rules for stuff it sells now. It isn’t news, it shouldn’t be a shock, sure, be disappointed but direct it at GW. Not at a guy who says “but many of you don’t even play those units...”
If GW had removed units the majority of the world bought and use then HBMC might have a point. As it is, he doesn’t. More people have spent ten years going “I’m definitely going to get a DKoK army” than have actually bought one. I know it’s a popular niche force and it’s sad for anyone whose units have been moved to Legends. They are still playable... they aren’t gone. There are hardly any tournaments as the world is screwed. Again, perspective.
And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
Anyone who spent money and modeling time on a model, much less an entire army, is perfectly justified to be angry about that model, models, or, I'll point out again, entire fething army being removed as an option from any methods of play.
Dysartes wrote:The datasheet count discrepancy is weird - anyone bored enough to count the entries on the previewed ToC?
Is Legends stuff allowed at events now? Because I already know that in home games I can do whatever I want.
TBH, FW stuff has always been a bit random in events. Either they allow it, either they refuse it. I think it will stay the same even after this book.
Previous events allowing full FW use before, I see some of them actually allowing Legends. Because the purpose of many of them isn't for balance or optimized competition anyway : it's to show these gorgeous models on the table.
Is Legends stuff allowed at events now? Because I already know that in home games I can do whatever I want.
TBH, FW stuff has always been a bit random in events. Either they allow it, either they refuse it. I think it will stay the same even after this book.
Previous events allowing full FW use before, I see some of them actually allowing Legends. Because the purpose of many of them isn't for balance or optimized competition anyway : it's to show these gorgeous models on the table.
Back when Krieg got released, the IG codex allowed you to run everything except some FW vehicles as a regular IG list and have no problems whatsoever, though. And there is some stuff like the Griffon that well, you still can use it as a snub Basilisk or whatever and you'll probably be fine, but some other stuff... well, not so.
And given that now you have super heavies, LoWs, knights and everything else as regular plastic kits... well, "balance" doesn't really plays a part on deciding.
Over here, though, none of the events I've seen allow Legends stuff.
If people really want GW to bring back certain unit datasheets the best way to do that is to get them to start selling those models again. GW follows their "no model, no rule" rather strictly these days and if they are not selling the model anymore then by their definition there is "no model".
Eldarsif wrote: If people really want GW to bring back certain unit datasheets the best way to do that is to get them to start selling those models again. GW follows their "no model, no rule" rather strictly these days and if they are not selling the model anymore then by their definition there is "no model".
JohnnyHell wrote: Perspective is useful, though not if trying to frame me as the villain I guess, HBMC.
"Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone." "Seriously, who actually fielded Sabre Defense Platforms?"
I'm not misquoting you. This is almost at the "don't care, got mine" level of dismissiveness.
It doesn't matter that you don't care. Someone might, and you're acting as if it ain't no thang. And from the posts that came after mine, and are above this one, I don't think I'm alone here.
Kanluwen wrote: Until we see the Legends entry, I feel it's a bit early to say that they don't do what you want
Is Legends stuff allowed at events now? Because I already know that in home games I can do whatever I want.
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JohnnyHell wrote: And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
I have no Sabre platforms. I do have four griffons, though. Maybe the Sabre was just one example, you know.
Plus, as said above, people paid for them, and it's not like they were OP to begin with.
6 sabre platforms, 3 griffons, and a whole army of R&H with more stuff that I can list here...
So yes I feel pretty entitled to be... unsettled.
And don't get me started on Elysians, a whole army of them also bought and without a list to be played.
Eldarsif wrote: If people really want GW to bring back certain unit datasheets the best way to do that is to get them to start selling those models again. GW follows their "no model, no rule" rather strictly these days and if they are not selling the model anymore then by their definition there is "no model".
Strictly unless you are marine.
I'm a Marine player (Iron Hands) and I've lost Chaplain & Mortis dreadnoughts and the Land Raider Prometheus.
Kanluwen wrote: Until we see the Legends entry, I feel it's a bit early to say that they don't do what you want
Is Legends stuff allowed at events now? Because I already know that in home games I can do whatever I want.
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JohnnyHell wrote: And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
I have no Sabre platforms. I do have four griffons, though. Maybe the Sabre was just one example, you know.
Plus, as said above, people paid for them, and it's not like they were OP to begin with.
6 sabre platforms, 3 griffons, and a whole army of R&H with more stuff that I can list here...
So yes I feel pretty entitled to be... unsettled.
As said the Sabre is just an example as far as I can say.
And don't get me started on Elysians, a whole army of them also bought and without a list to be played...
Eldarsif wrote: If people really want GW to bring back certain unit datasheets the best way to do that is to get them to start selling those models again. GW follows their "no model, no rule" rather strictly these days and if they are not selling the model anymore then by their definition there is "no model".
Strictly unless you are marine.
I'm a Marine player (Iron Hands) and I've lost Chaplain & Mortis dreadnoughts and the Land Raider Prometheus.
I didn't say they lose none. But marines are ones who actually have entries that require converting. Others don't have.
Maybe read what i write before replying next time?
changemod wrote: So, we didn’t get unit previews to speak of, there aren’t review copies out in the wild and it doesn’t ship till next Friday?
Pretty frustrating when all the buzz has been about stuff being cut in the first place.
Do we know there aren't any review copies? It seems bizarre to try to hype a book with rules for so many different factions with only two articles about DKoK.
changemod wrote: So, we didn’t get unit previews to speak of, there aren’t review copies out in the wild and it doesn’t ship till next Friday?
Pretty frustrating when all the buzz has been about stuff being cut in the first place.
Do we know there aren't any review copies? It seems bizarre to try to hype a book with rules for so many different factions with only two articles about DKoK.
Not sure what I expected but the price tag is a put off given I need 6 pages of it. I kind of wish they'd broken it into smaller collections again so you're not paying rulebook prices for a small volume of supplementary units with no prior knowledge.
changemod wrote: So, we didn’t get unit previews to speak of, there aren’t review copies out in the wild and it doesn’t ship till next Friday?
Pretty frustrating when all the buzz has been about stuff being cut in the first place.
Do we know there aren't any review copies? It seems bizarre to try to hype a book with rules for so many different factions with only two articles about DKoK.
Not sure what I expected but the price tag is a put off given I need 6 pages of it. I kind of wish they'd broken it into smaller collections again so you're not paying rulebook prices for a small volume of supplementary units with no prior knowledge.
Ditto. 9 pages will do it for me with my current collection. Some previews or reviews would be nice. I'd hate to spend $65 just to find out gw nerfed all my fw toys into the ground. I really hope they don't, almost every vehicle in my Night Lords is from fw.
I have a ton of forge world stuff across several armies, and aren’t very enthusiastic about this so far.
Of course for me to be genuinely hyped rather than merely pleasantly surprised they’d have to finally do the absolute financial no brainer of printing a few data sheets for the 30k mechanicus units I bought in the safe and comfortable knowledge Cyraxus was coming.
JohnnyHell wrote: The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
If GW told you to take a bullet for the Sigmarine statue outside their HQ, would you do it?
The people who invested money into FW's 'premium' products are exactly the type of diehard fans you'd think they would want to keep on side with a throwaway set of rules. What's the ink on that bit of paper compared to the thousands people spend on FW products?
That sums it up pretty well:
I do not care about the rule content or power level thing,
but their attitude to not even release rules at all for these models
annoy me as a long time consumer.
changemod wrote: I have a ton of forge world stuff across several armies, and aren’t very enthusiastic about this so far.
Of course for me to be genuinely hyped rather than merely pleasantly surprised they’d have to finally do the absolute financial no brainer of printing a few data sheets for the 30k mechanicus units I bought in the safe and comfortable knowledge Cyraxus was coming.
Luckily I stopped at a single Domitar, which is easily proxied as a Kastelan (same base size even). I'm not sure how big the base is on a Thanatar, but I suppose you could proxy it as an Onager or Armiger?
Would have loved to have gotten the mid-sized transport (I forget what it's called--smaller than Triaros) and used it as a Dunerider, but they were discontinued before the dunerider came out. I'd also love a Triaros but it's so big that it doesn't really work as a proxy for anything :(
The people who invested money into FW's 'premium' products are exactly the type of diehard fans you'd think they would want to keep on side with a throwaway set of rules. What's the ink on that bit of paper compared to the thousands people spend on FW products?
Thing is those aren't gw's focus. Plastic is more profitable with higher rate of pure profit. 1000 spent on plastic is far superior to 1000 on resin. Then you factor in lot more plastic buyers and...
Fw is designed for collectors who don't play. There's reason gw makes damned sure resin model rules suck. They don't want gamers to buy them.
Only reason fw even exists is collectors don't spam broken stuff so trying to sell broken plastic doesn't get you far
The people who invested money into FW's 'premium' products are exactly the type of diehard fans you'd think they would want to keep on side with a throwaway set of rules. What's the ink on that bit of paper compared to the thousands people spend on FW products?
Thing is those aren't gw's focus. Plastic is more profitable with higher rate of pure profit. 1000 spent on plastic is far superior to 1000 on resin. Then you factor in lot more plastic buyers and...
Fw is designed for collectors who don't play. There's reason gw makes damned sure resin model rules suck. They don't want gamers to buy them.
Only reason fw even exists is collectors don't spam broken stuff so trying to sell broken plastic doesn't get you far
I'm sure that's the reason why they have released all those HH minis and books.
JohnnyHell wrote: Hah I love this bizarro world where I’m the bad guy and everyone has Sabre Platforms. That’s not gloating, disgraceful, callous... whatever adjective you may try and apply. It’s a ridiculous assertion that the removal of that unit affects vast swathes of the player base. It does not. And for all we know it will have Legends rules so you don’t even have to buy a book. Perspective is useful, though not if trying to frame me as the villain I guess, HBMC.
Seriously, people. You know GW only makes rules for stuff it sells now. It isn’t news, it shouldn’t be a shock, sure, be disappointed but direct it at GW. Not at a guy who says “but many of you don’t even play those units...”
If GW had removed units the majority of the world bought and use then HBMC might have a point. As it is, he doesn’t. More people have spent ten years going “I’m definitely going to get a DKoK army” than have actually bought one. I know it’s a popular niche force and it’s sad for anyone whose units have been moved to Legends. They are still playable... they aren’t gone. There are hardly any tournaments as the world is screwed. Again, perspective.
And honestly, call me what you like... all five people who own Sabre Platforms have a small right to be upset but come on. The salty mountains you’re trying to make out of molehills here are ridiculous HBMC.
GW sells 40k as a "hobby", not just on the merits of crafting, but that there is something beyond just the building and painting of miniatures. When GW chooses to no longer support something with rules, they are cutting in half that value for your money, time, and effort that is the basis for their premium pricing.
You'd be frustrated if you bought a car and after an uncertain number of years the company repossesses the computer that controls the engine. Hearing someone say "Well you still have a car." or "Well they're in the business of selling cars." or "Well they didn't do it to my car" or "You didn't drive it that often" its dismissive, but its actually worse than just being dismissive. Your comments go beyond just being apathetic.
No matter if its true, its a moot point because at the end of the day the value of something you own and have invested time, effort, and money into has through the conscious decision of someone else, and due to nothing you've done, been diminished in value.
What might be hard to grasp is that a certain value people have in their collection isn't just what's in that collection; as a hobby sold on the depth and diversity of lore where that bleeds into the rest of the hobby is the expectation that as much of that permeates all depths of the hobby. Even if you don't own a Tyranid army, your sense of value in the hobby would be diminished if one of your favorite stories were Ultramarines fighting tyranids on Ultramar, then GW got rid of Nids. Even if you don't play DKoK, but in your mind they represent your notion of the IG better than anything else, having them dropped invalidates part of what you were sold on. Its a kind of personal investment that makes this hobby a hobby and a big part of its success. If you've been sold on the diversity and depth of what FW had added to the hobby seeing that diminished through non-support, diminishes the value you see in it as a whole.
If you're feeling defensive for being dismissive, you should ask yourself why do you feel a need to go steps beyond just being apathetic and insist on being adversarial to people that feel some sense of loss and betrayal? It doesn't matter whether those feelings are rational or not, the feelings are real. The action leading to those feelings are real. These feelings however come from a rational conclusion: Initial model value - GW support = new value, where new value < initial value => frustrated customers.
You're nitpicking details while ignoring the underlying and fundamental concern. Is 40k more or less interesting or fun without these FW models and units? -Most people that buy FW models would rationally say less interesting and less fun.
changemod wrote: I have a ton of forge world stuff across several armies, and aren’t very enthusiastic about this so far.
Of course for me to be genuinely hyped rather than merely pleasantly surprised they’d have to finally do the absolute financial no brainer of printing a few data sheets for the 30k mechanicus units I bought in the safe and comfortable knowledge Cyraxus was coming.
Luckily I stopped at a single Domitar, which is easily proxied as a Kastelan (same base size even). I'm not sure how big the base is on a Thanatar, but I suppose you could proxy it as an Onager or Armiger?
Would have loved to have gotten the mid-sized transport (I forget what it's called--smaller than Triaros) and used it as a Dunerider, but they were discontinued before the dunerider came out. I'd also love a Triaros but it's so big that it doesn't really work as a proxy for anything :(
Don’t forget thallax and ursarax, the admech “space marines” to the skitarii as admech “imperial guard”.
I think its just important to adopt a culture of "counts as" for discontinued special rules. There might not always be bespoke rules for every bespoke mode, but we should probably always be able to find something that a tank with a big gun on top can represent.
LunarSol wrote: I think its just important to adopt a culture of "counts as" for discontinued special rules. There might not always be bespoke rules for every bespoke mode, but we should probably always be able to find something that a tank with a big gun on top can represent.
Looks at the ever glowing bloated mountain of Marine models with super special rules....
Yeah, the timing of releasing the double-reaver rules at the exact time that they're culling FW is... unfortunate.
I think that the most reasonable approach would have been, if they really wanted to cull things, make a spreadsheet of proxy options; if they couldn't do that, add a datasheet.
"These characters can be represented by generic guys; these vehicles can be represented by their less-specific versions; these can be represented by the normal datasheet except they're allowed to take whichever wargear at regular cost that they need; these ones actually need new entries. Here's a callout box with the subfaction rule."
I get why they tried to shift from a plethora of options to datasheets that divide them, but the current format as implemented is really inflexible and often nearly redundant.
changemod wrote: So, we didn’t get unit previews to speak of, there aren’t review copies out in the wild and it doesn’t ship till next Friday?
Pretty frustrating when all the buzz has been about stuff being cut in the first place.
Do we know there aren't any review copies? It seems bizarre to try to hype a book with rules for so many different factions with only two articles about DKoK.
Not sure what I expected but the price tag is a put off given I need 6 pages of it. I kind of wish they'd broken it into smaller collections again so you're not paying rulebook prices for a small volume of supplementary units with no prior knowledge.
Ditto. 9 pages will do it for me with my current collection. Some previews or reviews would be nice. I'd hate to spend $65 just to find out gw nerfed all my fw toys into the ground. I really hope they don't, almost every vehicle in my Night Lords is from fw.
I don't mind the single book, however I had to buy 3 out of the 4 previous books anyway so the price is less of an issue, But if you only needed a single faction I get it could be more annoying/expensive.
But without someone doing a full walkthrough of the rules I have no intention of handing GW any money.
So far every update the 40K rules team has made to my FW units has either stripped rules from them without any reduction in points or just randomly increased points to make what were alternative choices cost 50-100 points more than a codex model which have better rules.
changemod wrote: So, we didn’t get unit previews to speak of, there aren’t review copies out in the wild and it doesn’t ship till next Friday?
Pretty frustrating when all the buzz has been about stuff being cut in the first place.
Do we know there aren't any review copies? It seems bizarre to try to hype a book with rules for so many different factions with only two articles about DKoK.
Not sure what I expected but the price tag is a put off given I need 6 pages of it. I kind of wish they'd broken it into smaller collections again so you're not paying rulebook prices for a small volume of supplementary units with no prior knowledge.
Ditto. 9 pages will do it for me with my current collection. Some previews or reviews would be nice. I'd hate to spend $65 just to find out gw nerfed all my fw toys into the ground. I really hope they don't, almost every vehicle in my Night Lords is from fw.
I don't mind the single book, however I had to buy 3 out of the 4 previous books anyway so the price is less of an issue, But if you only needed a single faction I get it could be more annoying/expensive.
But without someone doing a full walkthrough of the rules I have no intention of handing GW any money.
So far every update the 40K rules team has made to my FW units has either stripped rules from them without any reduction in points or just randomly increased points to make what were alternative choices cost 50-100 points more than a codex model which have better rules.
Just 50-100? Cries in 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade.
changemod wrote: So, we didn’t get unit previews to speak of, there aren’t review copies out in the wild and it doesn’t ship till next Friday?
Pretty frustrating when all the buzz has been about stuff being cut in the first place.
Do we know there aren't any review copies? It seems bizarre to try to hype a book with rules for so many different factions with only two articles about DKoK.
Not sure what I expected but the price tag is a put off given I need 6 pages of it. I kind of wish they'd broken it into smaller collections again so you're not paying rulebook prices for a small volume of supplementary units with no prior knowledge.
Ditto. 9 pages will do it for me with my current collection. Some previews or reviews would be nice. I'd hate to spend $65 just to find out gw nerfed all my fw toys into the ground. I really hope they don't, almost every vehicle in my Night Lords is from fw.
I don't mind the single book, however I had to buy 3 out of the 4 previous books anyway so the price is less of an issue, But if you only needed a single faction I get it could be more annoying/expensive.
But without someone doing a full walkthrough of the rules I have no intention of handing GW any money.
So far every update the 40K rules team has made to my FW units has either stripped rules from them without any reduction in points or just randomly increased points to make what were alternative choices cost 50-100 points more than a codex model which have better rules.
Just 50-100? Cries in 880 PPM Hellforged Fellblade.
I more mean like hear is a normal predator and here is a demios hellforged predator the codex one is 100 points the hellforged demios with same weapons is now 150 before weapons type deal.
You just endup using the nice shiney thing wuth weapons the codex one can't have as counts as codex model half the time.
None of the units in the FW books where used.
What WAS used was Infantry and bullgryns.
What people are forgetting is alot of the units that are gone, sucked.
Irillyth - 140pts,
4++, still -1 to hit, -1 to Enemy LD when within 6', Deep Strike, Shadow Spectres reroll 1's within 6'
24'' Assault 3, -4, 3 Damage, S5, -3 2 Damage in Melee
Shadow Spectres - 26pts, 5-10 models in Squad, still -1 to hit
Prism Rifle - Dispersed Assault D6, 18’, S5, -1, 1 Damage Blast
Focused - Assault 1, 24’, S3, -3, 3 Damage
Hornets - 80pts, -1 hit base, Starcannons 5pts, Bright Lance & Aeldari Missile Launcher 10pts
Heavy weapons reduced for Hornets
Hornet Pulse Laser - Lost -1AP, 36’, S7, Same damage? 5pts
Warp Hunter - 195pts
S12, D3+3 Damage in Artillery Mode, 24’’, AP4, Blast, D3 Shots Lost 12 in Artillery Mode
Flamer Mode - 12’, Flat Heavy 3, S12, AP4, D6 Damage, Auto Hit
Wraithseer - Doesn’t mention points level
9W, Access to Runes of Battle, Cast 1 Power per turn, Lost Character rule, 5++, doesn’t profile degrade, Heavy Support choice.
Eldritch Wraith Construct - Enemy ranged AP1, is changed to AP0
Ghost Spear - S10, AP3, D3+3 Damage
Nightwing - 220pts
BS3, T6, 14W, Can go into Hover, wings extend, loses airborne, hard to hit, agile interceptor, 5++, +1 to other enemy aircraft units
Skathach - 325pts
55pts per Deathshroud Cannon, 65pts Inferno Lance, can mix and match the Scattershield
Inferno Lance - 24’, S8, AP4, D6 Damage, within half range D6+2 Damage
Still has the Webway Shunt
Revenant - 1500pts, Distortion Field 4++ against ranged attacks
Sonic Lance -18’, Heavy 3D6, S4, AP3, auto hits, wounds Infantry on 2+
Pulse Laser - Revenant Pulsar, Heavy 6, 60’, S12, AP4, Damage 4
Cloudburst Missile Launcher - 36’, Heavy 2D6, S8, AP2, 2 Damage Blast
Source: Splintermind Podcast - Patreon Episode 98
I must say that I am disappointed with the Wraithseer losing the character rule and moved to Heavy Support. It was one of the cool things about it as you could have a spiritseer lead your forces.
hotsauceman1 wrote: None of the units in the FW books where used.
What WAS used was Infantry and bullgryns.
What people are forgetting is alot of the units that are gone, sucked.
Granted. Most of them were not competitive rule wise.
But I still believe it was not the point in the first place:
Most of them were nice models,
which may be the main reason most people bought them.
Having subpar rules and still be able to use these expensive
models is not exactly the same than not having rules altogether.
As said the product value tanked here, period.
And I will field a pair of nice griffon mortars against
these butt ugly bullgryns everyday:
because I like the look of them even if they finish
the game without being marine killers.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you like the look of them without performance being affected, then legends should be just fine then shouldn't it?
Maybe a unit should continue to have rules regardless whether it sucked previously or not.
Not being in production is a difficult topic and I understand why they're doing it, but taking options away from people never helps.
First, technically they are not taking away options as they keep the rules alive in Legends. Your beef is with the people and TOs who disallow them.
Second, the reason I don't want out of print models in tourneys is because it has the potential of creating weird synergies and if a synergy accidentally becomes too strong then recasters are going to make a lot of money because people will want one of those(for the record that's not good). For Friendly, Narrative, and Open games? I see no reason to ban Legend units.
Third, can we put this thread back to the original subject and maybe spin this Legend rule debate into a separate discussion? This is obviously a very passionate subject and would probably be served better with a dedicated thread of its own rather than in a news and rumor discussion.
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you like the look of them without performance being affected, then legends should be just fine then shouldn't it?
Maybe a unit should continue to have rules regardless whether it sucked previously or not.
Not being in production is a difficult topic and I understand why they're doing it, but taking options away from people never helps.
First, technically they are not taking away options as they keep the rules alive in Legends. Your beef is with the people and TOs who disallow them.
Second, the reason I don't want out of print models in tourneys is because it has the potential of creating weird synergies and if a synergy accidentally becomes too strong then recasters are going to make a lot of money because people will want one of those(for the record that's not good). For Narrative and Open games? I see no reason to ban Legend units.
Third, can we put this thread back to the original subject and maybe spin this Legend rule debate into a separate discussion? This is obviously a very passionate subject and would probably be served better with a dedicated thread of its own rather than in a news and rumor discussion.
It involves the discussion of the books contents and any legends dara is part of the release. I fail to see how it isn't on topic to discuss what is/isn't included, especially since you opt to weigh in your thoughts on the topic anyway.
To respond to your points, legends rules aren't updated, or rebalanced, so once they're in there they'll eventually become invalid.
Your reason for disallowing oop models from tournaments is at best, weird. If it's in print, isn't balanced and people spam recast versions it's fine. If it isn't in print, isn't balanced and people spam recast versions it isn't OK?
Why does the economy of recasters impact tournament balance?
hotsauceman1 wrote: If you like the look of them without performance being affected, then legends should be just fine then shouldn't it?
Maybe a unit should continue to have rules regardless whether it sucked previously or not.
Not being in production is a difficult topic and I understand why they're doing it, but taking options away from people never helps.
First, technically they are not taking away options as they keep the rules alive in Legends. Your beef is with the people and TOs who disallow them.
Second, the reason I don't want out of print models in tourneys is because it has the potential of creating weird synergies and if a synergy accidentally becomes too strong then recasters are going to make a lot of money because people will want one of those(for the record that's not good). For Friendly, Narrative, and Open games? I see no reason to ban Legend units.
Third, can we put this thread back to the original subject and maybe spin this Legend rule debate into a separate discussion? This is obviously a very passionate subject and would probably be served better with a dedicated thread of its own rather than in a news and rumor discussion.
Assuming the thread title dictates what is discussion and therefore OT i don't think your statement holds any weight.
Secondly, recasting is a squarly GW problem, respecitvely a problem with GW pricing and margins, which is where recasters actually make their money, IF GW would lower prices GW would have less issues with recasting.
Thirdly: tied to secondly, GW has issues with resin quality and it shows, there are recasters out there that do Resin models of GW better for massively cheaper material wise alone...
Now to the tourney scene, you allready have that, and by extension, frankly, even there the issue lies within the GW rulesteam, the same rulesteam that can't bother to proof read or check if all contents are actually in the dex, cue SW , or playtest seemingly, cue IH supplement on release... out of print models are the least of your issues imo.
Now to your first point, technically is not practically, Give these units 2 editions later a thought and tell me if they are still working as intended or even working at ALL... That is an issue regardless at which level you play because sooner or later the disconect becomes unmanageable.
Scorpions at 500 PPM? Cobras 450? Where are these leeks coming from? If those LOWs got cuts that big and the legion super heavys didn't I'm going to riot.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Scorpions at 500 PPM? Cobras 450? Where are these leeks coming from? If those LOWs got cuts that big and the legion super heavys didn't I'm going to riot.
Locally or are you going to risk corona land and 1 man riot outside a closed warhammer world, if so I might come watch and doff my cap.
HS (not LOW): Barbed Hierodule 275pts
HS (not LOW): Scythed Hierodule 235pts
HS: Stonecrusher fex 105pts (1 model per unit)
* with wrecking claws 115pts
LOW: Harridan 700pts
LOW: Hierophant 850pts
Malanthrope shrouding spores work to 6" but exclude Titanic units
Tail attack is S+1 flat 2 damage with a reroll to wound
Toxic miasma ability is the same but with D3 moral wounds.
Prey adapation is now re-roll wounds of 1.
Stonecrusher chitin rams do D3 mortal wounds, or D6 to vehicles or monsters
Bio-flails are 2 hit rolls per attack
Wrecker claws are now flat 3 damage instead of D6, when hitting vehicle or monsters that increases to 5/6 (can't tell)
Tyranid units now degrade on M / WS / BS (big help for the dimachaeron)
Dimachaerons WS3+ BS3+ W18, with a builtin 5++
Talons are S8 AP-3 D3+3 damage & re-roll all hits
There's a free S7 AP-3 D2 tail attack
Spinemaw is a chance to get D6 mortal wounds on a unit nearby.
Digestion spine now gives a 5+++ if the spine maw kills any model
Hierodules start at BS 3+ W18
I think the barbed one has a 2+ save but it's not clear.
Bio-cannon is now flat 2 damage, Heirodule scything talons S+2, D3+3 damage
Harridan and Hierophant both go to S8 T8 W34
Dire bio-cannons are Heavy 8, S10, AP-3, flat 3 damage.
Frenzied metabloism is +1 to wound
Gargantuan scything talons are S+2 flat 6 damage
Hierophant has a standard transport capacity for 20 infrantry (can take multiple units now), anything with more than one wound counts as two models. Really hope this means they're doing something similar with the Tyrannocyte in future too since it will be the same rules team now.
Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its jsut a boring tank.
Maybe it's now in the SM Codex?
They still sell the weapons variants, and honestly it was one of the best variant/conversion set they have... Also pretty simple and balanced rule-wise.
Another NOPE book then.
Legends is a scam, BTW. Fixed model rules while the rule book changes the core rules is something that no designer with an ounce of dignity will ever think about.
It's more a marketing stunt to hide the removal of models (the only thing GW have done correctly in the past: the life cycle of GW models have always been their strength).
I have to admit that I'm surprised to see Legends apologists: GW kool-aid is stronger that what I believe.
hotsauceman1 wrote: None of the units in the FW books where used.
What WAS used was Infantry and bullgryns.
What people are forgetting is alot of the units that are gone, sucked.
Hard to be cool and add to the salt pile if you’re being reasonable, come on now. That kind of rationality gets you in bother round here.
xttz wrote: Hierodules start at BS 3+ W18
I think the barbed one has a 2+ save but it's not clear.
Bio-cannon is now flat 2 damage, Heirodule scything talons S+2, D3+3 damage
xttz wrote: Hierodules start at BS 3+ W18
I think the barbed one has a 2+ save but it's not clear.
Bio-cannon is now flat 2 damage, Heirodule scything talons S+2, D3+3 damage
18 wounds? They made them weaker?
Well yeah is they're now a sub 300 point heavy support that kinda makes sense.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
Back when the Carny was the biggest GW made the Heiroduels were huge in comparison; now they are rubbing shoulders with the likes of the other superheavies. So I'm not too shocked to see the small lord of wars shift down a gear into regular super heavies.
It might actually be a boon that encourages their use more so on the tabletop. Even if they aren't more powerful they are more practical and cheaper in points to reflect that.
Granted it means Tyranids have lost lords of war and are left with only the two huge and expensive titan class models. So that's a bit of a blow, but then again who knows GW might give Tyranids a nice plastic Lord of War style model at some stage.
Overread wrote: Back when the Carny was the biggest GW made the Heiroduels were huge in comparison; now they are rubbing shoulders with the likes of the other superheavies. So I'm not too shocked to see the small lord of wars shift down a gear into regular super heavies.
It might actually be a boon that encourages their use more so on the tabletop. Even if they aren't more powerful they are more practical and cheaper in points to reflect that.
Granted it means Tyranids have lost lords of war and are left with only the two huge and expensive titan class models. So that's a bit of a blow, but then again who knows GW might give Tyranids a nice plastic Lord of War style model at some stage.
The Harridan is much improved and they did make the Hierophant usable in regular 40k games (no longer 2000pts lol) so we effectively gained LOWs.
However I'd much rather have Hierodules like this as 18W heavy support units that benefit from hive fleet traits, over the old wound values and have to pay a CP tax to bring them. The point drops have been substantial at 40-45%. What's more, most of the previous complaints with them have been fixed: random damage is now flat damage, BS3+ for the bio-cannons, melee units no longer degrade both WS and Attacks together. Dermic Symbiosis helps to fix their lack of invuln save.
Kronos Barbed Hierodules with Dermic Symbiosis are looking very interesting right now.
The old rules did make me chuckle a bit that the scythed could reach close combat and have worse stats than the ranged versions in close combat - that is if they took damage and stats degraded.
Making them more practical for games is indeed a big boon. Big expensive stuff is nice, but its nicer to have stuff you can use in a 2K game rather than only on the apoc game
hotsauceman1 wrote: None of the units in the FW books where used.
What WAS used was Infantry and bullgryns.
What people are forgetting is alot of the units that are gone, sucked.
Yeah, because Leman Russes with built in to hit rerolls and twin linked heavy bolter chimeras were *clearly* inferior. As well as being able to field three artillery pieces with no cover save that compared to the Bassie you saved enough points to buy a whole infantry squad was clearly for chumps.
hotsauceman1 wrote: None of the units in the FW books where used.
What WAS used was Infantry and bullgryns.
What people are forgetting is alot of the units that are gone, sucked.
Yeah, because Leman Russes with built in to hit rerolls and twin linked heavy bolter chimeras were *clearly* inferior. As well as being able to field three artillery pieces with no cover save that compared to the Bassie you saved enough points to buy a whole infantry squad was clearly for chumps.
?!? the plattforms and field gun versions were initially cheaper as they should've been for the lesser durability, afterwards though (first CA) they were ALL far more expensive then the basi..
also the chimera wasn0t up to task for quite some time now.
xttz wrote: However I'd much rather have Hierodules like this as 18W heavy support units that benefit from hive fleet traits, over the old wound values and have to pay a CP tax to bring them.
That is a good point. I didn't consider the CP tax side of things. But if I'm bringing Dermic Symbiosis, what am I going to give my Exocrine?
?!? the plattforms and field gun versions were initially cheaper as they should've been for the lesser durability, afterwards though (first CA) they were ALL far more expensive then the basi..
also the chimera wasn0t up to task for quite some time now.
I wasn't talking about the platforms, but rather, the humble Griffon, who's only real downside went away with the introduction of a four foot table. And while a standard chimera is, very much, as you say, some of the FW variants were much superior for the points.
?!? the plattforms and field gun versions were initially cheaper as they should've been for the lesser durability, afterwards though (first CA) they were ALL far more expensive then the basi..
also the chimera wasn0t up to task for quite some time now.
I wasn't talking about the platforms, but rather, the humble Griffon, who's only real downside went away with the introduction of a four foot table. And while a standard chimera is, very much, as you say, some of the FW variants were much superior for the points.
Also true, rather the twin linked or the one with an AC then a normal chimera, but also lets be honest here, even the "superior" ones were still not an issue.
As for the griffon, or any artillery piece really, the rather small tables and the tendency of GW torwards even smaller tables did indeed make it a superior choice in many ways, but it was allways outshined by wyverns and manticors imo.
generally though arty in 40k is a bit of an iffy history.
I just looked at the Astra Militarum section of that video. Some interesting stuff I took away:
It seems Death riders now have a flat 5++ instead of "only against S4 or less". So they might (!) acutally become an alternative to Bullgryns I think. Should they stay at 15 points as of the last points update you could get 3 x T4, W2, 4+, 5++ instead of one T5, W3, 2+ OR 4++. And at least in the turn they charged they seem to be better in CC than the Bullgryns with (per 3 riders), 6 S5, AP-3, D2 attacks followed by 6 S5, AP-1, D1 attacks.
Also for some reason the Death Rider Command Squad went from elite to fast attack and the normal riders from fast attack to elite?
The Trojan is still there and seems to be able to let a vehicle with a one-shot weapon fire again (hello Death Strike missile) => I'm pretty sure this is a misunderstanding or FAQed away, but would be hilarious
Tarantulas are now Fortifications.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
xttz wrote: However I'd much rather have Hierodules like this as 18W heavy support units that benefit from hive fleet traits, over the old wound values and have to pay a CP tax to bring them.
That is a good point. I didn't consider the CP tax side of things. But if I'm bringing Dermic Symbiosis, what am I going to give my Exocrine?
TBF I'm looking at the Barbed Hierodule as a 'heavy' Exocrine now. They both have similar basic profiles + ranged weapons, but +60% points gets you +50% wounds, a much stronger melee profile, and the Heirodule doesn't need a stratagem to move & fire at full power. The Hierodule also trades a point of AP for extra strength, which will be handy against tougher targets.
I'm very tempted to run one of each, both with Dermic Symbiosis.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads. Raise the price.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?
Warboss on Warbike got more attacks, more toughness and access to a killsaw, the wartrike aura, but got more expensive. Net win. Mekboss Buzzgob can now repair 4 wounds in one turn and has MWBD for ork walkers. Awesome. Kannonwagon is a renamed Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon that gives it +1 to hit when shooting, a decent side-grade to da boomer. Meka-dread was split into meka-dread and mega dread again and got a massive point drop. Nobz on warbikes are fast attack now, but are otherwise unchanged.
Zhardsnark, Lifta-Droppa, Warkopta and the Squiggoth got the axe.
Everything else lost all options that aren't sold by FW, including many favorites like big lobba, supa-skorchas. Gargantuan Squiggoth got a huge points hike, the other LoW remained as bad as they were.
In short, I'm happy that I've never spend any money on FW resin, and I'll start converting a mekboss buzzgob right now
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?
I would need to go through but only applies to the 30k era tanks and dreads, so sicarans, deredeo, contemptor, leviathan. whirlwind scorpius, xiphon and storm eagle, fire raptor, spartan, typhon, cerebus, falchion, fell blade mastadon, stormbird
It does not effect dreadclaws (odd as those are 30k era tech) nor the land raider variants, termites, rapiers, hell blades, the thunderhawk and kharybdis odly enough dont cost extra cp. Daemon engines also dont have the martial legacy rule.
Honestly I would have been fine if the martial legacy was a 1 time cost for forgeworld, pay it and use as many as you want.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?
well, that is gak?
like WTF level of gak?
To be fair, the Corpse-worshippers have the same rule.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?
well, that is gak?
like WTF level of gak?
To be fair, the Corpse-worshippers have the same rule.
Ye but I believe they get theirs and have chapter tactics that work on them, Because none of the chaos ones are hellbrutes they dont have legion traits
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.
TBH I always found the 4++ unnecesary in such a big and offensively powerfull model. With bs3+ and 5++ would have been enough of a nerf I believe.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.
TBH I always found the 4++ unnecesary in such a big and offensively powerfull model. With bs3+ and 5++ would have been enough of a nerf I believe.
It was a 300+ point model. Heaven forbid one of those be durable when Knights, a FAR bigger offender for large models having an Invul, run free just because.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.
I play marines. It is not merely about balance, it is about some semblance of simulation and coherence. FW has silly fetish or producing superer and ancienter dreads that completely outclass the codex versions.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.
I play marines. It is not merely about balance, it is about some semblance of simulation and coherence. FW has silly fetish or producing superer and ancienter dreads that completely outclass the codex versions.
Well maybe when the Codex one was ever worth running you'd have a point, but as it stands nerfing FW Dreads because of butthurt doesn't make Codex Dreads better.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.
I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.
But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.
Have you seen their model? Have you seen their fluff?
They’re relics from the time of the heresy with massive reinforced bodies. If venerable dreads have a 2+ for skill, it makes no sense for contemptors/deredeos and especially leviathans to not. If it has a hugely reinforced body, it makes no sense for its toughness to be the same.
Again, just overprice them. I don’t give a flying crap if the model is “competitive”, if it’s too pricey for a tournament player to consider but fluff accurate then that’s basically win/win.
Mothman wrote: Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.
Why does it cost a CP?
all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged
ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?
well, that is gak?
like WTF level of gak?
To be fair, the Corpse-worshippers have the same rule.
Yes, but those are relics for the loyalists, but for The Legions they are just the same vehicles they've always had since the Crusade and Heresy. You might as well have them pay 1CP for each suit of power armour. Not to mention the fact that loyalists have more options to begin with, csm needed some of these units, especially if you want to field a fluffy army from a Legion that traditionally doesn't like dealing with daemons.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?
Warboss on Warbike got more attacks, more toughness and access to a killsaw, the wartrike aura, but got more expensive. Net win.
Mekboss Buzzgob can now repair 4 wounds in one turn and has MWBD for ork walkers. Awesome.
Kannonwagon is a renamed Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon that gives it +1 to hit when shooting, a decent side-grade to da boomer.
Meka-dread was split into meka-dread and mega dread again and got a massive point drop.
Nobz on warbikes are fast attack now, but are otherwise unchanged.
Zhardsnark, Lifta-Droppa, Warkopta and the Squiggoth got the axe.
Everything else lost all options that aren't sold by FW, including many favorites like big lobba, supa-skorchas. Gargantuan Squiggoth got a huge points hike, the other LoW remained as bad as they were.
In short, I'm happy that I've never spend any money on FW resin, and I'll start converting a mekboss buzzgob right now
I Missed the Kannonwagon being a battlewagon and not the older gunwagon... Stupid me.
Lifta-Droppa, Warkopta and the Squiggoth will be missed.
They were not cheap... Hence ends my Squiggoth brigade... (6 of them... )
In short, I feel screwed to have spent so much money on FW resin over the years...
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?
Nevermind. Found it:
Goonhammer wrote:
Leviathan Dreadnought. The big thicc dreadnought is somewhat more svelte now – it’s dropped from toughness 8 to toughness 7, and from WS/BS 2+ down to 3+ on both. Atomantic Shielding matches the contemptor, so only a 5+ invulnerable save rather than 4+, combining for an overall substantial drop in durability. There are some changes in weapons as well – stormcannon arrays trade 2 shots for an extra 12” range, melta lances gain blast but swap from 2d3 to d6 shots, and the grav-flux bombard doubles in shots and has a more standard grav weapon statline. As a bonus, leviathans can now take nipple volkite, rather than just heavy flamers. The melee weapons got a substantial shakeup too, the leviathan no longer loses attacks for taking guns, and instead always has at least 4 attacks – each siege claw gives an additional attack with that weapon, and the siege drill does 2d3 damage against most targets, or 6 damage against vehicles. All told, the leviathan takes a substantial hit to both offense and defense, balanced out by dropping all the way down to a base 220 points, and only up to 240 with the common double storm cannon loadout.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?
Yeah I’m looking at the video now. They have a +1 attack per close combat weapon at least, but 5++ invulnerable (I’m okay with that one, I want it tougher than visibly less tough dreads not having the most invinciblest invulnerable)
Bafflingly the telemon got none of those nerfs. Still S/T8, still 2+ skill (Not surprising, custodes.), still 4++ save, has the -1 damage for being a dreadnought, +1 attack per close combat weapon, 12 inch range on plasma flamers, only costs 260 points with most loadouts...
Talking of things being missing - I've got a Warlord Titan, and one of the weapons I have for it is the Warlord Macro Gatling Blaster, which FW released about a year ago, still sell today and include in their Warlord Titan bundle. And yet it doesn't have rules in the new book. It's a £92 lump of resin that's bigger than a lot of super heavies on its own, that's one hell of an oversight.
changemod wrote: I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.
Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?
Sooo, they managed to instead of fixing up the hellstorm ac and consorts, to hand out reaper ac's and twin acs, the butcher now is frankly gak, the Hellbrute keyword lack is hillariously onesided considering that CSM allready had comparatively questionable trait support...
And they managed to feth up the decimator even more then it allready was, that is . ... impressive...
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Venerable.
Venerable dreads have 2+ skills, relic dreads are rarer and fancier. If you want it to make sense for relic dreads to have a 3+, you have to come up with something else for venerable pilots to do other than “have 2+ skill stats”.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
Is there a summary of the point/rule changes to astra militarum? Been wanting a big forgeworld tank for a while but have held of for this update. I heard most things got cheaper in points, carnodons got more wounds? Malcadors maybe worth it over a baneblade? Macharious?
Twoshoes23 wrote: Is there a summary of the point/rule changes to astra militarum? Been wanting a big forgeworld tank for a while but have held of for this update. I heard most things got cheaper in points, carnodons got more wounds? Malcadors maybe worth it over a baneblade? Macharious?
Goonhammer wrote:Leviathan Dreadnought. The big thicc dreadnought is somewhat more svelte now – it’s dropped from toughness 8 to toughness 7, and from WS/BS 2+ down to 3+ on both. Atomantic Shielding matches the contemptor, so only a 5+ invulnerable save rather than 4+, combining for an overall substantial drop in durability. There are some changes in weapons as well – stormcannon arrays trade 2 shots for an extra 12” range, melta lances gain blast but swap from 2d3 to d6 shots, and the grav-flux bombard doubles in shots and has a more standard grav weapon statline. As a bonus, leviathans can now take nipple volkite, rather than just heavy flamers. The melee weapons got a substantial shakeup too, the leviathan no longer loses attacks for taking guns, and instead always has at least 4 attacks – each siege claw gives an additional attack with that weapon, and the siege drill does 2d3 damage against most targets, or 6 damage against vehicles. All told, the leviathan takes a substantial hit to both offense and defense, balanced out by dropping all the way down to a base 220 points, and only up to 240 with the common double storm cannon loadout.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
No different than nobody using the regular Dread profile over the Ven Dread. Bad argument is bad.
Any news on Grot Tanks? Friend of mine has a small fleet of them.
Their movement got more reliable (6"+d6 instead of 2d6"), +2 leadership and 3+ save (up from 4+) and the megatank got bumped to 11 wounds and lost mutiny, but degrades now. The also lost the 6++ save and got ramshackle (same rule as trukk) instead.
Since their points remained the same, they got quite a bit better - though considering where they came from, they still aren't anywhere near a competitive choice but at least they can compete with kanz now.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Personally I believe no dreadnought should have WS2+ or BS2+. They are slow, killing machines, not slender fighters with extreme precision in each of their shots or meele attacks. Just like in fantasy ogres had a crap weapon skill but hitted like a truck, so all venerables, contemptor and leviathans should have 3+ in both stats. Maybe one could arguee WS3+ and BS2+ but I don't believe meele dreadnoughts need a disadvantage over shooting ones.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:
These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.
There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:
These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.
There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought
Atleast it is propper grimdark.
Still iffy though rulewise considering until FAQ these will just be inferior to Loyalist versions .... once again one might add,
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:
These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.
There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought
Not only that but just like the Primaris Dreadnoughts, Leviathans killed their "occupants" or make them go mad so actually probably any venerable dreadnought has more centuries or milleniums of experience than any leviathan dreadnought.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:
These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.
There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought
Not only that but just like the Primaris Dreadnoughts, Leviathans killed their "occupants" or make them go mad so actually probably any venerable dreadnought has more centuries or milleniums of experience than any leviathan dreadnought.
Leviathans put more strain on their pilot which can cause psychosis, but they don’t boil them alive as a disposable component like the reactors in a Redemptor.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well if they fry the occupants that quickly they really wouldn't be powerful war machines would they?
Why not? Look at the primaris ones. A couple of extra centuries of service inside a giant Dreadnought++ is probably something any marine would accept.
Personally as I said , WS and BS of 3+ and invulnerable of 5++ would have been enough (And I also dont like imperial knights with 3++ and 4++ invuls, those invuls in models so big is stupid), maybe a slighly discount. And they would still have been better than normal dreadnoughts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well if they fry the occupants that quickly they really wouldn't be powerful war machines would they?
Why not? Look at the primaris ones. A couple of extra centuries of service inside a giant Dreadnought++ is probably something any marine would accept.
Personally as I said , WS and BS of 3+ and invulnerable of 5++ would have been enough (And I also dont like imperial knights with 3++ and 4++ invuls, those invuls in models so big is stupid), maybe a slighly discount. And they would still have been better than normal dreadnoughts.
Except those Vets will somehow have less experience than a VenDread which still exists as an entry. It's all garbage justification from people mad that FW made some Dreads worth running compared to the garbage Codex options.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well if they fry the occupants that quickly they really wouldn't be powerful war machines would they?
Why not? Look at the primaris ones. A couple of extra centuries of service inside a giant Dreadnought++ is probably something any marine would accept.
Personally as I said , WS and BS of 3+ and invulnerable of 5++ would have been enough (And I also dont like imperial knights with 3++ and 4++ invuls, those invuls in models so big is stupid), maybe a slighly discount. And they would still have been better than normal dreadnoughts.
I mean yeah, as I said earlier I don’t mind the invulnerable drop. And the key to relic dreads getting better skills is the venerable dread, which, if it had a different way to represent the ancient pilot, wouldn’t be causing that issue. The biggest issue is the dropped toughness, which is definitely weird considering just how solidly built and armoured the thing is.
That said it’s ludicrous that Telemons keep all three of those things (2+ skill, 4++ save, S and T8) and get the new buffs (-1 damage, +1 attack per close combat weapon) and Only cost 260 points, with only the storm cannon as wargear that costs extra (+15 per)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well if they fry the occupants that quickly they really wouldn't be powerful war machines would they?
Why not? Look at the primaris ones. A couple of extra centuries of service inside a giant Dreadnought++ is probably something any marine would accept.
Personally as I said , WS and BS of 3+ and invulnerable of 5++ would have been enough (And I also dont like imperial knights with 3++ and 4++ invuls, those invuls in models so big is stupid), maybe a slighly discount. And they would still have been better than normal dreadnoughts.
You really need to check some FAQ's Knights haven't been able to make a 3++ for years.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Same reason an 80-year old Basketball player doesn't auto-win against a 25-year old one?
Hell, by that logic, the most ancient Marine / Primarch / etc.. that ever existed with 10.000 years of experience should probably have a BS/WS that is 2 or 3 worse than the basic Necron Warrior, who might've been around for the lifetime of all Space Marines taken together consecutively, lol.
The idea that things get better just because they get older is nonsense.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:
These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.
There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought
Not only that but just like the Primaris Dreadnoughts, Leviathans killed their "occupants" or make them go mad so actually probably any venerable dreadnought has more centuries or milleniums of experience than any leviathan dreadnought.
Leviathans put more strain on their pilot which can cause psychosis, but they don’t boil them alive as a disposable component like the reactors in a Redemptor.
It should also be mentioned that in IA 13 Contemptors were specifically pointed out for not causing madness in their occupants like other csm dreadnoughts. That's why they are used to inter the greatest and most important champions. No mention of degrading components, either, I might add.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well if they fry the occupants that quickly they really wouldn't be powerful war machines would they?
Why not? Look at the primaris ones. A couple of extra centuries of service inside a giant Dreadnought++ is probably something any marine would accept.
Personally as I said , WS and BS of 3+ and invulnerable of 5++ would have been enough (And I also dont like imperial knights with 3++ and 4++ invuls, those invuls in models so big is stupid), maybe a slighly discount. And they would still have been better than normal dreadnoughts.
Except those Vets will somehow have less experience than a VenDread which still exists as an entry. It's all garbage justification from people mad that FW made some Dreads worth running compared to the garbage Codex options.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Same reason an 80-year old Basketball player doesn't auto-win against a 25-year old one?
Hell, by that logic, the most ancient Marine / Primarch / etc.. that ever existed with 10.000 years of experience should probably have a BS/WS that is 2 or 3 worse than the basic Necron Warrior, who might've been around for the lifetime of all Space Marines taken together consecutively, lol.
The idea that things get better just because they get older is nonsense.
The idea being that if a marine sticks around long enough they go from merely veteran to effectively a “character”.
A ven dread would be captain or chapter master if he wasn’t in his box.
..Honestly if we want full consistency then, if we’re deciding that dreads don’t go to 2+ when they become venerable then neither should Bjorn.
Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.
I expect this to be entertaining.
Same reason an 80-year old Basketball player doesn't auto-win against a 25-year old one?
Hell, by that logic, the most ancient Marine / Primarch / etc.. that ever existed with 10.000 years of experience should probably have a BS/WS that is 2 or 3 worse than the basic Necron Warrior, who might've been around for the lifetime of all Space Marines taken together consecutively, lol.
The idea that things get better just because they get older is nonsense.
A space marine interred in a dreadnought doesn't age like your hypothetical basketball player, nor does a space marine not interred in one either. And the dreadnought chassis itself is superior to the newer one because it was designed and built with the superior technology of the Crusade era.
Sunny Side Up wrote: FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.
Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.
Buy to win guys would have to be idiots buying fw. It's gw codexes that have broken stuff as gw wants gamers to buy them. Gw knows good rules sell and plastic is profitable. Ergo resin is made junk.
So they get rid of the rules for the Squiggoth, despite still selling the model (I guess for how long remains to be seen) and they decide to address the fact that the gargantuan Squiggoth was everything the Stompa should have been by massively hiking the cost? Great.
tneva82 wrote: Fw is designed for collectors who don't play. There's reason gw makes damned sure resin model rules suck. They don't want gamers to buy them.
I look at FW apologist nonsense constantly parroted on this forum and I wonder if it is transmission from some other planet. Because on this one, leviathans, contemptors, deredeos, FW custode gak, and various chaos minis were by far the most broken garbage through the entirety of 8th edition. I especially like looking at "SM" and "CSM" tournament lists that were invariably 3x leviathan, 2x contemptor/deredeo, plus some token mooks to screen and repair these, then here at bizarro posters complaining about "broken" plastic that somehow never shows up in tournaments, it's always recast spam. Even in 9th edition, when every non-SM player is complaining about eradicators, FW las contemptor is vastly more durable, has similar damage output, but with far larger range, better movement that doesn't affect accuracy, and better statline across the board, is twice as accurate - meaning what is arguably most OP plastic SM unit of the decade doesn't even compare with resin crap after it had been nerfed. """Sucks""" you say?
tneva82 wrote: Fw is designed for collectors who don't play. There's reason gw makes damned sure resin model rules suck. They don't want gamers to buy them.
I look at FW apologist nonsense constantly parroted on this forum and I wonder if it is transmission from some other planet. Because on this one, leviathans, contemptors, deredeos, FW custode gak, and various chaos minis were by far the most broken garbage through the entirety of 8th edition. I especially like looking at "SM" and "CSM" tournament lists that were invariably 3x leviathan, 2x contemptor/deredeo, plus some token mooks to screen and repair these, then here at bizarro posters complaining about "broken" plastic that somehow never shows up in tournaments, it's always recast spam. Even in 9th edition, when every non-SM player is complaining about eradicators, FW las contemptor is vastly more durable, has similar damage output, but with far larger range, better movement that doesn't affect accuracy, and better statline across the board, is twice as accurate - meaning what is arguably most OP plastic SM unit of the decade doesn't even compare with resin crap after it had been nerfed. """Sucks""" you say?
Then it will be very interesting to see where the broken crap comes from now. Since no one will have the FW boogeyman. I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count.
Since everything is being done now by the GW studio rules people, we'll see if any broken stuff appears - spoiler - it will!
I'll let others counter your argument that the "only" stuff that appeared in tourney broken lists was FW stuff. There are lots and lots of GW proper/codex broken stuff, in every edition.
On topic, I'm disappointed that my two armies that I was actively building - R&H and DKOK either got squatted or gutted - and no, I don't consider "use the guard dex" as equivalent. I guess it's another push back to 5th edition or so, and I'll just use the Vraks rules.
Its amazing to me how GW has completely stopped me from spending any money on their stuff since early 8th edition.
tneva82 wrote: Fw is designed for collectors who don't play. There's reason gw makes damned sure resin model rules suck. They don't want gamers to buy them.
I look at FW apologist nonsense constantly parroted on this forum and I wonder if it is transmission from some other planet. Because on this one, leviathans, contemptors, deredeos, FW custode gak, and various chaos minis were by far the most broken garbage through the entirety of 8th edition. I especially like looking at "SM" and "CSM" tournament lists that were invariably 3x leviathan, 2x contemptor/deredeo, plus some token mooks to screen and repair these, then here at bizarro posters complaining about "broken" plastic that somehow never shows up in tournaments, it's always recast spam. Even in 9th edition, when every non-SM player is complaining about eradicators, FW las contemptor is vastly more durable, has similar damage output, but with far larger range, better movement that doesn't affect accuracy, and better statline across the board, is twice as accurate - meaning what is arguably most OP plastic SM unit of the decade doesn't even compare with resin crap after it had been nerfed. """Sucks""" you say?
I literally stopped reading after you claiming Custodes were broken with FW because not only is that fething hilarious and legit out of touch, they produce most of the options for that codex, which has basically none!
tneva82 wrote: Fw is designed for collectors who don't play. There's reason gw makes damned sure resin model rules suck. They don't want gamers to buy them.
I look at FW apologist nonsense constantly parroted on this forum and I wonder if it is transmission from some other planet. Because on this one, leviathans, contemptors, deredeos, FW custode gak, and various chaos minis were by far the most broken garbage through the entirety of 8th edition. I especially like looking at "SM" and "CSM" tournament lists that were invariably 3x leviathan, 2x contemptor/deredeo, plus some token mooks to screen and repair these, then here at bizarro posters complaining about "broken" plastic that somehow never shows up in tournaments, it's always recast spam. Even in 9th edition, when every non-SM player is complaining about eradicators, FW las contemptor is vastly more durable, has similar damage output, but with far larger range, better movement that doesn't affect accuracy, and better statline across the board, is twice as accurate - meaning what is arguably most OP plastic SM unit of the decade doesn't even compare with resin crap after it had been nerfed. """Sucks""" you say?
I literally stopped reading after you claiming Custodes were broken with FW because not only is that fething hilarious and legit out of touch, they produce most of the options for that codex, which has basically none!
If you don’t include FW stuff all custodes have is:
-Two repurposed marine units, one of which fails entirely to look the part
-Three types of shield captain, probably would have been a single datasheet before current design trends
-Two standard bearer variants, sadly not HQ so useless for filling detachments
-Three infantry squads that all fill approximately the same role with very similar equipment and stats
-Bike that also fills a similar role but is arguably straight up better because it has a hurricane bolter and moves faster
I’d argue you’d need to pick out at least two FW units to even hit basic faction diversity and make a list that doesn’t make me want to fall asleep.
Without FW Custodes aren't a real army. One has to be drunk on cocacola to believe Custodes FW units were broken, when they were some of the best balanced units in the game, and you know why? because GW did a "beta" phase for those rules and for the final version the powerfull stuff was nerfed (the telemon and the big tank) and they did take feedback (like making custodes with piriphyte and adrastite spears troops) into account.
I would hope all 40K rules would be made like GW did custodes 40k's rules, to be honest.
A space marine interred in a dreadnought doesn't age like your hypothetical basketball player, nor does a space marine not interred in one either. And the dreadnought chassis itself is superior to the newer one because it was designed and built with the superior technology of the Crusade era.
You simply don't like anything fw. Just admit it.
I like FW (or anything) with balanced rules.
I don't like FW (or anything) with blatant "pay-to-win-you-get-a-bonus-for-spending-money" rules.
Of course it applies to broken GW stuff just as much, lol.
You simply don't like playing fair and balanced games where you have to rely on skill for winning for a change. Just admit it.
A space marine interred in a dreadnought doesn't age like your hypothetical basketball player, nor does a space marine not interred in one either. And the dreadnought chassis itself is superior to the newer one because it was designed and built with the superior technology of the Crusade era.
You simply don't like anything fw. Just admit it.
I like FW (or anything) with balanced rules.
I don't like FW (or anything) with blatant "pay-to-win-you-get-a-bonus-for-spending-money" rules.
Of course it applies to broken GW stuff just as much, lol.
You simply don't like playing fair and balanced games where you have to rely on skill for winning for a change. Just admit it.
You seem to be ignoring points as an element of the balancing of units.
If something has better rules, it should pay more points for them.
I don't have CA20 yet - no need until it looks like there's a chance of a game - but I just took a glance at MFM19, and in there the base chassis (for a Loyalist Levi, at least) was nearly three times the cost of a standard Codex Dread. Even allowing for weapons, they were significantly more expensive - in terms of points - to field, and as a Relic unit (at the time) they also partially dictated your army construction by requiring an additional Elite choice to be fielded.
Was nearly three times the base cost a high enough points cost for what they provided? Possibly not - but I don't own a Levi, so I didn't have chance to test them at that time and look at the relative performance. If it wasn't enough, though, you adjust the cost - hitting multiple elements on the datasheet at once seems like a reaction to the amount of whining about the unit that existed.
A space marine interred in a dreadnought doesn't age like your hypothetical basketball player, nor does a space marine not interred in one either. And the dreadnought chassis itself is superior to the newer one because it was designed and built with the superior technology of the Crusade era.
You simply don't like anything fw. Just admit it.
I like FW (or anything) with balanced rules.
I don't like FW (or anything) with blatant "pay-to-win-you-get-a-bonus-for-spending-money" rules.
Of course it applies to broken GW stuff just as much, lol.
You simply don't like playing fair and balanced games where you have to rely on skill for winning for a change. Just admit it.
Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.
And I don't go around saying other people's units should be removed from the game because they're too "strong", everything can be, and should be, balanced by points.
Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.
Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.
Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.
Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.
As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.
A space marine interred in a dreadnought doesn't age like your hypothetical basketball player, nor does a space marine not interred in one either. And the dreadnought chassis itself is superior to the newer one because it was designed and built with the superior technology of the Crusade era.
You simply don't like anything fw. Just admit it.
I like FW (or anything) with balanced rules.
I don't like FW (or anything) with blatant "pay-to-win-you-get-a-bonus-for-spending-money" rules.
Of course it applies to broken GW stuff just as much, lol.
You simply don't like playing fair and balanced games where you have to rely on skill for winning for a change. Just admit it.
Please tell me when my spined beast of chaos, blood slaughterer or my mates tomb sentinel were ever "pay to win" in 8th... or 9th...
A space marine interred in a dreadnought doesn't age like your hypothetical basketball player, nor does a space marine not interred in one either. And the dreadnought chassis itself is superior to the newer one because it was designed and built with the superior technology of the Crusade era.
You simply don't like anything fw. Just admit it.
I like FW (or anything) with balanced rules.
I don't like FW (or anything) with blatant "pay-to-win-you-get-a-bonus-for-spending-money" rules.
Of course it applies to broken GW stuff just as much, lol.
You simply don't like playing fair and balanced games where you have to rely on skill for winning for a change. Just admit it.
Except FW was never the biggest offender soooooooo we aren't sure what you're babbling about.
Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.
Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.
As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.
Yes, and? Csm 3.5 allowed for both daemon princes (Krieg Acerbus) and possessed csm (Vandred) in a Night Lords army, as did Traitor Legions, but neither allowed for them to take marks other than Undivided. Both of those things could exist in Night Lords warbands, but the other Eighth Legion legionnaires would consider them weaklings and fools. Zso Sahaal didn't give Krieg a big hug when he saw him, and Talos and the boys didn't have a very high opinion of what Vandred allowed himself to become (neither did Vandred, in the end). But of course you can use those in a Night Lords army if you want, after all, they're YOUR DUDES, you can do whatever you want with them.
But I play my Night Lords as nihilistic godless psychopaths, as they are described in both the 2nd edition chaos codex and csm 3.5, that's why I prefer to use non-daemonic vehicles, which means lots of fw vehicles. I don't use them because they're "OP" (Really? My Sicaran is OP?). That was my point.
Cyclops demolition vehicle got better lol. I expected to shelve mine. But that flat 6" range and 10 point reduction along with letting them ride inside transports again is strait up hilarious.
Can't decide if I want to put one in a Valkyrie or inside a Chimera lol.
My catachan jungle Wall-e is gona make some enemies lol.
I was in the middle of making an ork Big Trakk conversion with two Skorchas and a Super-Skorcha. But the datasheet seems...shorter than that. Can't quite make out what it says in the video.
Can someone with access to the book check: did it lose all of its options?
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: I was in the middle of making an ork Big Trakk conversion with two Skorchas and a Super-Skorcha. But the datasheet seems...shorter than that. Can't quite make out what it says in the video.
Can someone with access to the book check: did it lose all of its options?
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: I was in the middle of making an ork Big Trakk conversion with two Skorchas and a Super-Skorcha. But the datasheet seems...shorter than that. Can't quite make out what it says in the video.
Can someone with access to the book check: did it lose all of its options?
The only options left a kannon and supa-kannon.
Dammit.
I suppose it's nice that I didn't finish it completely and waste even more work and money, but that was going to be such a nice centerpiece for an Arsonists army.
GW prettey much kept their course as expected with this book. Titan-scale units get priced out of the game, units and options with no models on sale right now get the axe and might or might not resurface as legend rules (things that never had a model most likely won't) and everything still in production got a bit more streamlined and polished
Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.
Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.
As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.
Yes, and? Csm 3.5 allowed for both daemon princes (Krieg Acerbus) and possessed csm (Vandred) in a Night Lords army, as did Traitor Legions, but neither allowed for them to take marks other than Undivided. Both of those things could exist in Night Lords warbands, but the other Eighth Legion legionnaires would consider them weaklings and fools. Zso Sahaal didn't give Krieg a big hug when he saw him, and Talos and the boys didn't have a very high opinion of what Vandred allowed himself to become (neither did Vandred, in the end). But of course you can use those in a Night Lords army if you want, after all, they're YOUR DUDES, you can do whatever you want with them.
But I play my Night Lords as nihilistic godless psychopaths, as they are described in both the 2nd edition chaos codex and csm 3.5, that's why I prefer to use non-daemonic vehicles, which means lots of fw vehicles. I don't use them because they're "OP" (Really? My Sicaran is OP?). That was my point.
So you play your NL as part of the lore - thats fine - its not the whole lore though and surely its a positive that all versions of the NL are usable?
Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.
Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.
As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.
Yes, and? Csm 3.5 allowed for both daemon princes (Krieg Acerbus) and possessed csm (Vandred) in a Night Lords army, as did Traitor Legions, but neither allowed for them to take marks other than Undivided. Both of those things could exist in Night Lords warbands, but the other Eighth Legion legionnaires would consider them weaklings and fools. Zso Sahaal didn't give Krieg a big hug when he saw him, and Talos and the boys didn't have a very high opinion of what Vandred allowed himself to become (neither did Vandred, in the end). But of course you can use those in a Night Lords army if you want, after all, they're YOUR DUDES, you can do whatever you want with them.
But I play my Night Lords as nihilistic godless psychopaths, as they are described in both the 2nd edition chaos codex and csm 3.5, that's why I prefer to use non-daemonic vehicles, which means lots of fw vehicles. I don't use them because they're "OP" (Really? My Sicaran is OP?). That was my point.
So you play your NL as part of the lore - thats fine - its not the whole lore though and surely its a positive that all versions of the NL are usable?
Yes, like I said, they're YOUR DUDES, and you can do what you want with them. But I shouldn't be penalized for playing my Night Lords according to their prevailing lore. And that's what the Martial Legacy rule does. I can understand for something like a Leviathan, as those were rare even during the Heresy, but Contemptors? When loyalists have a codex option that has the exact same stats, minus the wargear options, without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all the other dreadnoughts they have in their codex, while the csm codex has only the option for crazed mutants? And why should my LOWs have an extra 1CP tax over all other LOWs when the adjusted datasheets brings them in line with codex options, and csm's only codex LOW is literally a personification of a Chaos God and breaks that lore?
I think part of the problem is that in typical GW fashion unlike the FW rules in the older books the Choas version is a Copy Past of the Loyalist entry.
Now if we are talking about a Fellblade, Falchion etc with doctorines and chapter tactics and etc, the additional CP cost is definataly more justifiable as esentially no-one else gets that sort of stuff currently.
For choas who live in this weird like marines but minus 50% of the rules yeah their is an issue.
However I think Choas might get a codex that's esentially the spikey version of Marines 3.0 at which point the 1CP probably is justified.
But more fundamentally the issue is 1 LOW is not worth 3CP, simply put GW should have given it a command benifit.
If your LoW shares the same subfaction as your warlord you get 2CP.
Ice_can wrote: I think part of the problem is that in typical GW fashion unlike the FW rules in the older books the Choas version is a Copy Past of the Loyalist entry.
Now if we are talking about a Fellblade, Falchion etc with doctorines and chapter tactics and etc, the additional CP cost is definataly more justifiable as esentially no-one else gets that sort of stuff currently.
For choas who live in this weird like marines but minus 50% of the rules yeah their is an issue.
However I think Choas might get a codex that's esentially the spikey version of Marines 3.0 at which point the 1CP probably is justified.
But more fundamentally the issue is 1 LOW is not worth 3CP, simply put GW should have given it a command benifit.
If your LoW shares the same subfaction as your warlord you get 2CP.
But the Astreus, and the klos in that hypothetical csm 3.0, don't cost that additional CP. Consistency isn't gw's strong point.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
Galas wrote: Without FW Custodes aren't a real army. One has to be drunk on cocacola to believe Custodes FW units were broken, when they were some of the best balanced units in the game, and you know why? because GW did a "beta" phase for those rules and for the final version the powerfull stuff was nerfed (the telemon and the big tank) and they did take feedback (like making custodes with piriphyte and adrastite spears troops) into account.
I would hope all 40K rules would be made like GW did custodes 40k's rules, to be honest.
Pretty much as it should be though. Custodes should be that niche truly elite army in terms of a reality. The 'i'll get it for my 50th birthday' army. In terms of how that fits with fluff, it upholds the idea they're able to hit most of the necessary things without needing to fill gaps with variety. Each member is flexible and superior.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
Galas wrote: Without FW Custodes aren't a real army. One has to be drunk on cocacola to believe Custodes FW units were broken, when they were some of the best balanced units in the game, and you know why? because GW did a "beta" phase for those rules and for the final version the powerfull stuff was nerfed (the telemon and the big tank) and they did take feedback (like making custodes with piriphyte and adrastite spears troops) into account.
I would hope all 40K rules would be made like GW did custodes 40k's rules, to be honest.
Pretty much as it should be though. Custodes should be that niche truly elite army in terms of a reality. The 'i'll get it for my 50th birthday' army. In terms of how that fits with fluff, it upholds the idea they're able to hit most of the necessary things without needing to fill gaps with variety. Each member is flexible and superior.
Thanks but fluff should not be used as an excuse to design a bad, unfun and incomplete army.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
I would argue that hellforged levies got a straight up buff with being able to be fixed by warpsmiths and weapon updates as well as duty eternal etc. Paying 2 CP for 2 levi when they are that good is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
I would argue that hellforged levies got a straight up buff with being able to be fixed by warpsmiths and weapon updates as well as duty eternal etc. Paying 2 CP for 2 levi when they are that good is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
And I would agree. As I said, my issue is with the 1CP tax being levied on the Legion Super Heavys and Contemptors. It's fine for leviathans and daredeos, but it isn't fair in the case of Contemptors, as loyalists have a codex version with the same abilities and stats, just without the wargear options, for the same points without the 1CP surcharge, while csm don't, and the super heavys shouldn't be subject to an extra 1CP tax now that they are no better than most codex LOWs.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
Gw doesn't want players to use them. Ergo it makes complete sense.
These are for collectors who get 1 of each rather than spam best stuff. For collectors how many kits are on sale defines how many kits they buy. Sell 10 kits, collector gets 10 kits. Sell 50 kits, collector gets 50. Gamer buys from narrower ramge.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
Gw doesn't want players to use them. Ergo it makes complete sense.
These are for collectors who get 1 of each rather than spam best stuff. For collectors how many kits are on sale defines how many kits they buy. Sell 10 kits, collector gets 10 kits. Sell 50 kits, collector gets 50. Gamer buys from narrower ramge.
[Citation required]
An actual citation, not just claiming it makes sense. You've been repeating this claim for quite some time now, and I don't recall you ever producing something to back it up.
So, please, when it comes to this particular line of "argument" - put up, or shut up.
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
Gw doesn't want players to use them. Ergo it makes complete sense.
These are for collectors who get 1 of each rather than spam best stuff. For collectors how many kits are on sale defines how many kits they buy. Sell 10 kits, collector gets 10 kits. Sell 50 kits, collector gets 50. Gamer buys from narrower ramge.
[Citation required]
An actual citation, not just claiming it makes sense. You've been repeating this claim for quite some time now, and I don't recall you ever producing something to back it up.
So, please, when it comes to this particular line of "argument" - put up, or shut up.
Yes, especially since Martial Legacy is only a problem for marines. Xenos, daemons, Guard, etc don't have to worry about it. So are those fw units not aimed at collectors?
Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?
(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)
Quasistellar wrote: To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.
All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?
-3, I believe.
Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.
Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.
I would argue that hellforged levies got a straight up buff with being able to be fixed by warpsmiths and weapon updates as well as duty eternal etc. Paying 2 CP for 2 levi when they are that good is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Being able to be fixed by Warpsmiths means nothing though when an opponent is already trying to kill these things in one go. Hell it didn't even really matter for Loyalists and the Iron Hands could repair them hella. Repair abilities are almost always a waste to pay for.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?
(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)
I'm going to assume by "disproportionately benefit" you mean in number of unit entries because the CSM selections don't benefit from faction abilities like pretty much every single other entry in the book and other than 1 model for Death Guard, their subfactions with their own books don't have access to them at all. The Dreads even lost the weapon options that made their variants uniquely Chaos and are straight up copypastas of the Loyalist versions with a prefix to the name.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?
(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)
But csm need our fw units to make up for our lackluster codex options compared to loyalists, where fw is just "MOAR!" for loyalists.
Loyalists codex dreadnoughts:
Standard box dread
Venerable Dreadnought: BS/WS2
Ironclad: T8
Contemptor: 5++
Redemptor
Invictur: Not a dreadnought, but technically, it's a dreadnought.
Csm codex dreadnoughts:
Hellbrute
If that's the case, it's hitting the Legions a lot harder than loyalists. And that's just talking dreadnoughts.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?
(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)
But csm need our fw units to make up for our lackluster codex options compared to loyalists, where fw is just "MOAR!" for loyalists.
Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
alextroy wrote: Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
Death Guard don't have anything in the IA comp as far as I'm aware.
alextroy wrote:Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
I'd say you're right, but that doesn't fix the problem of csm having to pay an extra CP for units they would have more access to in the first place compared to loyalists, or in the case of Contemptors, units loyalists have in their codex without that added cost in the first place, or that our LOWs are 1CP more expensive than everyone else's "because". I could see the less daemonicly inclined legions getting an "ignore Martial Legacy" rule, but I doubt it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Death Guard don't have anything in the IA comp as far as I'm aware.
alextroy wrote: Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
Like Psychic Awakening was compatable with 9th ed??
I don;t think GW is able to do this sort of thing.
They could also have just made basic adjustments to CSM when they did the huge Marine update.
In fairness you could say our Daemon engines mitigate the shortfall in number of dreadnoughts we can access. I think the bigger deficiencies in the CSM line up compared to loyalists are probably aircraft and elite characters.
There are no aircraft in the main codex and can't see that being fixed so we're basically stuck with the lackluster FW options. I'm hoping some of the lower level HQs get moved to elites in the new codex.
At least we finally have a viable drop pod option...
Abaddon303 wrote: In fairness you could say our Daemon engines mitigate the shortfall in number of dreadnoughts we can access. I think the bigger deficiencies in the CSM line up compared to loyalists are probably aircraft and elite characters.
There are no aircraft in the main codex and can't see that being fixed so we're basically stuck with the lackluster FW options. I'm hoping some of the lower level HQs get moved to elites in the new codex.
At least we finally have a viable drop pod option...
The new Dreadclaw rules look awesome. But as far as daemon engines are concerned: Not in my Night Lords. Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
alextroy wrote: Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
Like Psychic Awakening was compatable with 9th ed??
I don;t think GW is able to do this sort of thing.
They could also have just made basic adjustments to CSM when they did the huge Marine update.
It was rumored that the playtesters were working with all the 9th Ed codex rules during the playtesting for 9th- if true, and GW had the rules for all factions ironed out before the release of any of them, then it would be more surprising if FW rules were done after the fact rather than alongside the codices.
Abaddon303 wrote: In fairness you could say our Daemon engines mitigate the shortfall in number of dreadnoughts we can access. I think the bigger deficiencies in the CSM line up compared to loyalists are probably aircraft and elite characters.
There are no aircraft in the main codex and can't see that being fixed so we're basically stuck with the lackluster FW options. I'm hoping some of the lower level HQs get moved to elites in the new codex.
At least we finally have a viable drop pod option...
The new Dreadclaw rules look awesome. But as far as daemon engines are concerned: Not in my Night Lords. Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
I think the FW book has all but confirmed that daemon engines will not get core unfortunately. Hopefully they will benefit from any improved legion traits or doctrines GW may bless us with though.
What I did find interesting, and I'm probably reading too much into this, but I notice that of the FW daemon engines, the Blood Slaughterer went from 3+ WS, 4+ BS to 3+ for both. The Greater Blight Drone went from 4+ WS, 3+ BS to 3+ for both. The Kytan and Brass Scorpion were already 3+ for both.
Clearly GW are trying to rationalise the rules between the GW and FW books, and the GBD is probably the most significant in that the new weapons, profile and points bring it very much in line with the Foetid Bloat Drone. That is apart from the 3+.
Could we be seeing the daemon engines moving to a 3+ across the board? It always felt a little odd that daemon possession seemed to make them less acurate. If they don't get the core keyword, and subsequently lose the ability to reroll 1s due to lord auras etc, then this might be how GW look to mitigate that?
Probably wishful thinking
alextroy wrote:Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
I'd say you're right, but that doesn't fix the problem of csm having to pay an extra CP for units they would have more access to in the first place compared to loyalists, or in the case of Contemptors, units loyalists have in their codex without that added cost in the first place, or that our LOWs are 1CP more expensive than everyone else's "because". I could see the less daemonicly inclined legions getting an "ignore Martial Legacy" rule, but I doubt it.
I was more thinking along the lines of Death Guard will allow all units to utilize the Legion or Plague Host tactics, with exceptions like Cultist, Pox Walkers, and the like.
As for Chaos having "more access" to Hersey Era tech, the Legions lost vast amounts of their armory during their retreat from Terra and the Scouring. Instead, they have been dependent upon captured wargear and new construction by the Dark Mechanicus. Apparently, the Dark Mechanics has not been building a lot of Heresy Era tech. Instead, we are getting standard wargear and the new Daemon engines being build the the Legions themselves.
alextroy wrote:Here's a wild concept: The Imperial Armour Compendium, much like the Chapter Approved Munitorum Field Manual 2020 is future proofed. Many of the issues you note will resolve themselves when the new Chaos Space Marines codex is released. You will almost certainly be able to use your Legion Tactics on all units when that happens (with a few exceptions like Cultist). You should get a good clue on that when Deathguard comes out next month.
I'd say you're right, but that doesn't fix the problem of csm having to pay an extra CP for units they would have more access to in the first place compared to loyalists, or in the case of Contemptors, units loyalists have in their codex without that added cost in the first place, or that our LOWs are 1CP more expensive than everyone else's "because". I could see the less daemonicly inclined legions getting an "ignore Martial Legacy" rule, but I doubt it.
I was more thinking along the lines of Death Guard will allow all units to utilize the Legion or Plague Host tactics, with exceptions like Cultist, Pox Walkers, and the like.
As for Chaos having "more access" to Hersey Era tech, the Legions lost vast amounts of their armory during their retreat from Terra and the Scouring. Instead, they have been dependent upon captured wargear and new construction by the Dark Mechanicus. Apparently, the Dark Mechanics has not been building a lot of Heresy Era tech. Instead, we are getting standard wargear and the new Daemon engines being build the the Legions themselves.
Right, not a lot, but they can still produce it, and do. In fact, according to IA 13 they still crank out the occasional Fellblade, though they still need to use a few salvaged parts. But that still puts the Dark Mechanicus ahead of their toaster worshipping cousins. If they can turn a few salvaged parts into a whole 300+ ton tank, then they can maintain the ones that are still in one piece. And if they can do that with a super heavy tank, then dreadnoughts wouldn't be a problem. Remember, the Dark Mechanicus doesn't play by all the tired dogmatic rules as Mars, they have no problem with modifying or reverse engineering existing technology, no matter how old or "sacred". So no, the Legions wouldn't have a lot of Heresy Era tech, but they have more than their thin blooded cousins. And since loyalists already have access to a lot of units csm don't because they're too "new" for the Legions, it's only fair to let the Heretics have more of the "old" toys.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: To be fair, we need a hard consolidation of the Dreads. The fact that Ironclads, regular, and Vens are all different entries is fething stupid.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: To be fair, we need a hard consolidation of the Dreads. The fact that Ironclads, regular, and Vens are all different entries is fething stupid.
Why is that stupid?
because you could have a singular dread entry, with an option to upgrade into either? Heck you could have a venerable ironclad that way....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: To be fair, we need a hard consolidation of the Dreads. The fact that Ironclads, regular, and Vens are all different entries is fething stupid.
Why is that stupid?
Because it goes against the tired consolidationist dogma...
*shrug*
I don't agree with it, but Slayer has been beating this particular brand of dead horse beyond the point of being a meat paste.
Not Online!!! wrote: because you could have a singular dread entry, with an option to upgrade into either?
And what benefit is there to this other than saving page space?
Reduction of skew.
Reduction of spam.
there are a LOT of such entries that depending upon buff and entry could become rather problematic, like DP's which needed FAQing, or elysian mortars with normal mortars.
Same for Chaos lords, the jumppack and foot version share one sheet, the terminator is another. ( ok on one hand having 6 CSM lords would be kinda funny to see if only for the sheer ammount of smash you could produce but let's be honest here, there's no reason to separate them and for some sheets it can become an issue...
Probably also thinking about the rule of 3. If they're different entries you can have 3 of each for 9 dreads. If Ironclad and Venerable are just upgrades you can have 3.
Abaddon303 wrote: In fairness you could say our Daemon engines mitigate the shortfall in number of dreadnoughts we can access. I think the bigger deficiencies in the CSM line up compared to loyalists are probably aircraft and elite characters.
There are no aircraft in the main codex and can't see that being fixed so we're basically stuck with the lackluster FW options. I'm hoping some of the lower level HQs get moved to elites in the new codex.
At least we finally have a viable drop pod option...
The new Dreadclaw rules look awesome. But as far as daemon engines are concerned: Not in my Night Lords. Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
Hey, if you want to apply artificial limitations to what you take, you can't really complain when they act as, well, limitations.
Abaddon303 wrote: In fairness you could say our Daemon engines mitigate the shortfall in number of dreadnoughts we can access. I think the bigger deficiencies in the CSM line up compared to loyalists are probably aircraft and elite characters.
There are no aircraft in the main codex and can't see that being fixed so we're basically stuck with the lackluster FW options. I'm hoping some of the lower level HQs get moved to elites in the new codex.
At least we finally have a viable drop pod option...
The new Dreadclaw rules look awesome. But as far as daemon engines are concerned: Not in my Night Lords. Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
Hey, if you want to apply artificial limitations to what you take, you can't really complain when they act as, well, limitations.
Sure I can. What I'm complaining about is that csm have to pay 1CP for a Contemptor, while loyalists have one in their codex without that added cost, and that all of the Legion LOWs also have that additional cost, while no other LOW does. That isn't an even playing field. Those limitations were imposed by gw, not me.
Are those valid complaints, or are you still calling shenanigans on me?
Been a big issue in 8th with people bringing 3 regular Dreads and 3 Iconclads in the same list, has there?
ask any player on the reciving end of IH supplement Dread spam, even ignoring the more Power game comp builds, it was not particular fun to face only dreads, just as any skew list is.
That way you can limit internal skew quite a bit.
Heck you don't need to be as drastic as my suggestion but making a Ven dread and a regular dread sheet which could both be upgraded could curb the worst excesses whilest still allowing for a heavy dread force in that exemple.
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: Probably also thinking about the rule of 3. If they're different entries you can have 3 of each for 9 dreads. If Ironclad and Venerable are just upgrades you can have 3.
Aye, it's partially future proofing for comp type style and pick ups..
Allbeit it0s maybee to excessive, instead i'd think a ven sheet with upgradeability and a regular dread sheet with upgradeability would still lower the entries by 33% and the spam aswell as give more customizability.
Im all for certain forge world units hell even certain codex units getting the CP cost treatment. have your commonly seen units (codex units) your uncommonly seen units (forgeworld) and your rarely seen units with added cost of CP, not becuase they are op or better but becuase they are rare and your using up your resources to requisition one.
So long as its attribuated fairly and not based on "gw doesnt like people running this unit so blam cp tax". things like this vehicle has maybe 3 left in the imperium, CP tax. or This vehicle can only be created by mineral rich forge worlds or those by which have the greatest tech priests, just points.
CP tax could be an alternative way to lower the point cost of certain units... like when the forge world greater daemons have been at meme points for over half their total existance, and zarakynel was playable preifly when she was only the cost of like 2 keepers before going bac, up to her meme points, and after the "rework" is still basically unplayable but not auto lose to take at least.
warmaster21 wrote: Im all for certain forge world units hell even certain codex units getting the CP cost treatment. have your commonly seen units (codex units) your uncommonly seen units (forgeworld) and your rarely seen units with added cost of CP, not becuase they are op or better but becuase they are rare and your using up your resources to requisition one.
So long as its attribuated fairly and not based on "gw doesnt like people running this unit so blam cp tax". things like this vehicle has maybe 3 left in the imperium, CP tax. or This vehicle can only be created by mineral rich forge worlds or those by which have the greatest tech priests, just points.
CP tax could be an alternative way to lower the point cost of certain units... like when the forge world greater daemons have been at meme points for over half their total existance, and zarakynel was playable preifly when she was only the cost of like 2 keepers before going bac, up to her meme points, and after the "rework" is still basically unplayable but not auto lose to take at least.
The rules are better, but many of the FW superheavies are still pointed so high simply to restrict them from normal games. Things like Warhound titans have improved somewhat to be more characterful, but cost 2000 points so you cant really run it, not because they are equivalent to 5-6 knights. Same with Stompas in plastic, but that is a separate point.
I agree that a lot of Marine entries are spread out too much and should be consolidated. Venerable Dreadnoughts ought to be a strategem to upgrade an existing dreadnought, and give the normal dreadnought entry back the weapon options it used to have that got split out to the venerable kit or FW models. There was no need to split the Predator Annihilator and Destructor into 2 separate datasheets when they have a single turret option separating them. same with the gravis captain and captain with heavy bolt rifle when a single line "May replace the boltstorm auto-gauntlet with a heavy bolt rifle" would yield identical results rules wise without a 7th captain entry. GW has been pushing mono-loadout entries on orks and such, but it would have been more fun if the gladiator had been more flexible with the 3 turret options and sponson guns, letting players build them how they want rather than tying specific sponsons to specific main guns.
Never mind all the leviathans, contemptors, custode gak and other vastly broken stuff (to the point rule of 3 had to be introduced after 
)
In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.
Not to mention I'll almost guarantee daemon engines won't be CORE, or reduce all damage by 1.
