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 Mr Morden wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.

Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.

As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.

Yes, and? Csm 3.5 allowed for both daemon princes (Krieg Acerbus) and possessed csm (Vandred) in a Night Lords army, as did Traitor Legions, but neither allowed for them to take marks other than Undivided. Both of those things could exist in Night Lords warbands, but the other Eighth Legion legionnaires would consider them weaklings and fools. Zso Sahaal didn't give Krieg a big hug when he saw him, and Talos and the boys didn't have a very high opinion of what Vandred allowed himself to become (neither did Vandred, in the end). But of course you can use those in a Night Lords army if you want, after all, they're YOUR DUDES, you can do whatever you want with them.

But I play my Night Lords as nihilistic godless psychopaths, as they are described in both the 2nd edition chaos codex and csm 3.5, that's why I prefer to use non-daemonic vehicles, which means lots of fw vehicles. I don't use them because they're "OP" (Really? My Sicaran is OP?). That was my point.

Cyclops demolition vehicle got better lol. I expected to shelve mine. But that flat 6" range and 10 point reduction along with letting them ride inside transports again is strait up hilarious.

Can't decide if I want to put one in a Valkyrie or inside a Chimera lol.

My catachan jungle Wall-e is gona make some enemies lol.

I was in the middle of making an ork Big Trakk conversion with two Skorchas and a Super-Skorcha. But the datasheet seems...shorter than that. Can't quite make out what it says in the video.
Can someone with access to the book check: did it lose all of its options?

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
I was in the middle of making an ork Big Trakk conversion with two Skorchas and a Super-Skorcha. But the datasheet seems...shorter than that. Can't quite make out what it says in the video.
Can someone with access to the book check: did it lose all of its options?

The only options left a kannon and supa-kannon.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:
I was in the middle of making an ork Big Trakk conversion with two Skorchas and a Super-Skorcha. But the datasheet seems...shorter than that. Can't quite make out what it says in the video.
Can someone with access to the book check: did it lose all of its options?

The only options left a kannon and supa-kannon.

Dammit.

I suppose it's nice that I didn't finish it completely and waste even more work and money, but that was going to be such a nice centerpiece for an Arsonists army.

Thanks for the info.

GW prettey much kept their course as expected with this book. Titan-scale units get priced out of the game, units and options with no models on sale right now get the axe and might or might not resurface as legend rules (things that never had a model most likely won't) and everything still in production got a bit more streamlined and polished

Gimme back my Mortis Dreads!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.

Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.

As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.

Yes, and? Csm 3.5 allowed for both daemon princes (Krieg Acerbus) and possessed csm (Vandred) in a Night Lords army, as did Traitor Legions, but neither allowed for them to take marks other than Undivided. Both of those things could exist in Night Lords warbands, but the other Eighth Legion legionnaires would consider them weaklings and fools. Zso Sahaal didn't give Krieg a big hug when he saw him, and Talos and the boys didn't have a very high opinion of what Vandred allowed himself to become (neither did Vandred, in the end). But of course you can use those in a Night Lords army if you want, after all, they're YOUR DUDES, you can do whatever you want with them.

But I play my Night Lords as nihilistic godless psychopaths, as they are described in both the 2nd edition chaos codex and csm 3.5, that's why I prefer to use non-daemonic vehicles, which means lots of fw vehicles. I don't use them because they're "OP" (Really? My Sicaran is OP?). That was my point.

So you play your NL as part of the lore - thats fine - its not the whole lore though and surely its a positive that all versions of the NL are usable?

So are the Marine characters okay or nah? They'd have to have gotten a substantial price cut at least on the Chapter Master end.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yes, that's obviously why I've played Night Lords for two decades straight, refuse to mark any of my units, (so no Cacophony or Fury of Khorne), routinely played my 917 PPM fellblade throughout 8th, never used formations in 7th, never even considered buying a disco lord, etc., etc.. I'm a "fluff bunny ", I play fw units because they fit the fluff of Night Lords being a bunch of hard heads who refuse to worship chaos and hang out with daemons.

Except Lord of the Night shows that that's not a universal Night Lords thing. Everything you refuse to use is perfectly fluffy for Night Lords depending on which source you use.

As the ADB novels - In fact it all means that both your warband style and full on Chaos versions both fit the lore.

Yes, and? Csm 3.5 allowed for both daemon princes (Krieg Acerbus) and possessed csm (Vandred) in a Night Lords army, as did Traitor Legions, but neither allowed for them to take marks other than Undivided. Both of those things could exist in Night Lords warbands, but the other Eighth Legion legionnaires would consider them weaklings and fools. Zso Sahaal didn't give Krieg a big hug when he saw him, and Talos and the boys didn't have a very high opinion of what Vandred allowed himself to become (neither did Vandred, in the end). But of course you can use those in a Night Lords army if you want, after all, they're YOUR DUDES, you can do whatever you want with them.

But I play my Night Lords as nihilistic godless psychopaths, as they are described in both the 2nd edition chaos codex and csm 3.5, that's why I prefer to use non-daemonic vehicles, which means lots of fw vehicles. I don't use them because they're "OP" (Really? My Sicaran is OP?). That was my point.

So you play your NL as part of the lore - thats fine - its not the whole lore though and surely its a positive that all versions of the NL are usable?

Yes, like I said, they're YOUR DUDES, and you can do what you want with them. But I shouldn't be penalized for playing my Night Lords according to their prevailing lore. And that's what the Martial Legacy rule does. I can understand for something like a Leviathan, as those were rare even during the Heresy, but Contemptors? When loyalists have a codex option that has the exact same stats, minus the wargear options, without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all the other dreadnoughts they have in their codex, while the csm codex has only the option for crazed mutants? And why should my LOWs have an extra 1CP tax over all other LOWs when the adjusted datasheets brings them in line with codex options, and csm's only codex LOW is literally a personification of a Chaos God and breaks that lore?

I think part of the problem is that in typical GW fashion unlike the FW rules in the older books the Choas version is a Copy Past of the Loyalist entry.
Now if we are talking about a Fellblade, Falchion etc with doctorines and chapter tactics and etc, the additional CP cost is definataly more justifiable as esentially no-one else gets that sort of stuff currently.
For choas who live in this weird like marines but minus 50% of the rules yeah their is an issue.
However I think Choas might get a codex that's esentially the spikey version of Marines 3.0 at which point the 1CP probably is justified.

But more fundamentally the issue is 1 LOW is not worth 3CP, simply put GW should have given it a command benifit.
If your LoW shares the same subfaction as your warlord you get 2CP.

Ice_can wrote:
I think part of the problem is that in typical GW fashion unlike the FW rules in the older books the Choas version is a Copy Past of the Loyalist entry.
Now if we are talking about a Fellblade, Falchion etc with doctorines and chapter tactics and etc, the additional CP cost is definataly more justifiable as esentially no-one else gets that sort of stuff currently.
For choas who live in this weird like marines but minus 50% of the rules yeah their is an issue.
However I think Choas might get a codex that's esentially the spikey version of Marines 3.0 at which point the 1CP probably is justified.

But more fundamentally the issue is 1 LOW is not worth 3CP, simply put GW should have given it a command benifit.
If your LoW shares the same subfaction as your warlord you get 2CP.

But the Astreus, and the klos in that hypothetical csm 3.0, don't cost that additional CP. Consistency isn't gw's strong point.

To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

Please do not openly ask for pirate links to copyrighted materials on Dakka Dakka, thanks!

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Primarchs are free.

 Galas wrote:
Without FW Custodes aren't a real army. One has to be drunk on cocacola to believe Custodes FW units were broken, when they were some of the best balanced units in the game, and you know why? because GW did a "beta" phase for those rules and for the final version the powerfull stuff was nerfed (the telemon and the big tank) and they did take feedback (like making custodes with piriphyte and adrastite spears troops) into account.

I would hope all 40K rules would be made like GW did custodes 40k's rules, to be honest.

Pretty much as it should be though. Custodes should be that niche truly elite army in terms of a reality. The 'i'll get it for my 50th birthday' army. In terms of how that fits with fluff, it upholds the idea they're able to hit most of the necessary things without needing to fill gaps with variety. Each member is flexible and superior.

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

Semper wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Without FW Custodes aren't a real army. One has to be drunk on cocacola to believe Custodes FW units were broken, when they were some of the best balanced units in the game, and you know why? because GW did a "beta" phase for those rules and for the final version the powerfull stuff was nerfed (the telemon and the big tank) and they did take feedback (like making custodes with piriphyte and adrastite spears troops) into account.

I would hope all 40K rules would be made like GW did custodes 40k's rules, to be honest.

Pretty much as it should be though. Custodes should be that niche truly elite army in terms of a reality. The 'i'll get it for my 50th birthday' army. In terms of how that fits with fluff, it upholds the idea they're able to hit most of the necessary things without needing to fill gaps with variety. Each member is flexible and superior.

Thanks but fluff should not be used as an excuse to design a bad, unfun and incomplete army.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

I would argue that hellforged levies got a straight up buff with being able to be fixed by warpsmiths and weapon updates as well as duty eternal etc. Paying 2 CP for 2 levi when they are that good is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 Argive wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

I would argue that hellforged levies got a straight up buff with being able to be fixed by warpsmiths and weapon updates as well as duty eternal etc. Paying 2 CP for 2 levi when they are that good is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

And I would agree. As I said, my issue is with the 1CP tax being levied on the Legion Super Heavys and Contemptors. It's fine for leviathans and daredeos, but it isn't fair in the case of Contemptors, as loyalists have a codex version with the same abilities and stats, just without the wargear options, for the same points without the 1CP surcharge, while csm don't, and the super heavys shouldn't be subject to an extra 1CP tax now that they are no better than most codex LOWs.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

Gw doesn't want players to use them. Ergo it makes complete sense.

These are for collectors who get 1 of each rather than spam best stuff. For collectors how many kits are on sale defines how many kits they buy. Sell 10 kits, collector gets 10 kits. Sell 50 kits, collector gets 50. Gamer buys from narrower ramge.

tneva82 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

Gw doesn't want players to use them. Ergo it makes complete sense.

These are for collectors who get 1 of each rather than spam best stuff. For collectors how many kits are on sale defines how many kits they buy. Sell 10 kits, collector gets 10 kits. Sell 50 kits, collector gets 50. Gamer buys from narrower ramge.

[Citation required]

An actual citation, not just claiming it makes sense. You've been repeating this claim for quite some time now, and I don't recall you ever producing something to back it up.

So, please, when it comes to this particular line of "argument" - put up, or shut up.

Good luck with either of that

 Dysartes wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

Gw doesn't want players to use them. Ergo it makes complete sense.

These are for collectors who get 1 of each rather than spam best stuff. For collectors how many kits are on sale defines how many kits they buy. Sell 10 kits, collector gets 10 kits. Sell 50 kits, collector gets 50. Gamer buys from narrower ramge.

[Citation required]

An actual citation, not just claiming it makes sense. You've been repeating this claim for quite some time now, and I don't recall you ever producing something to back it up.

So, please, when it comes to this particular line of "argument" - put up, or shut up.

Yes, especially since Martial Legacy is only a problem for marines. Xenos, daemons, Guard, etc don't have to worry about it. So are those fw units not aimed at collectors?

Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?

(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)

 Argive wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
To be fair, the Astraeus is a current fluff 40k model--not some relic from 30k.

All of the Legions are relics from 30k as well, so why should they have to pay an extra CP for a Legion Super Heavy? Know who else is a relic from 30k? Gulliman. How many CP does he cost in addition to his points?

-3, I believe.

Jidmah wrote:Primarchs are free.

Yes, I know, he's free if you put him in the Supreme Command Detachment, and gives you 3CP if he's your warlord, that's the point. Lots of units are "old", or "rare" but only certain fw marine units have this additional cost. And it doesn't make sense since they've all been nerfed in terms of abilities and stats, particularly for the super heavys which don't offer anything over any other LOW now, and Contemptors because loyalists have a codex version for the same points but without the 1CP surcharge, on top of all their other codex dreads, while csm are stuck with just the hellbrute.

I would argue that hellforged levies got a straight up buff with being able to be fixed by warpsmiths and weapon updates as well as duty eternal etc. Paying 2 CP for 2 levi when they are that good is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Being able to be fixed by Warpsmiths means nothing though when an opponent is already trying to kill these things in one go. Hell it didn't even really matter for Loyalists and the Iron Hands could repair them hella. Repair abilities are almost always a waste to pay for.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?

(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)

I'm going to assume by "disproportionately benefit" you mean in number of unit entries because the CSM selections don't benefit from faction abilities like pretty much every single other entry in the book and other than 1 model for Death Guard, their subfactions with their own books don't have access to them at all. The Dreads even lost the weapon options that made their variants uniquely Chaos and are straight up copypastas of the Loyalist versions with a prefix to the name.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Real question: giving FW/GW perhaps too much credit, is it possible that this is simply limiting the number of toys CS/Marines can have from FW books because they disproportionately benefit re: available options vs. other factions?

(This of course doesn't address the ridiculous codex: marines, but, just thinking...)

But csm need our fw units to make up for our lackluster codex options compared to loyalists, where fw is just "MOAR!" for loyalists.

Loyalists codex dreadnoughts:
Standard box dread
Venerable Dreadnought: BS/WS2
Ironclad: T8
Contemptor: 5++
Redemptor
Invictur: Not a dreadnought, but technically, it's a dreadnought.

Csm codex dreadnoughts:
Hellbrute

If that's the case, it's hitting the Legions a lot harder than loyalists. And that's just talking dreadnoughts.

Edit: Forgot about the primaris dreads.