Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone. Or stuff that they don’t intend for 40K. Or just forgot.

Seriously, who actually fielded Sabre Defense Platforms?

And if you do, they’re lined up for Legends rules according to GeeDubs.

Rule Of Three brought in to curb Malefic Psykers? Nah mate it was to kill off the 7 Hive Tyrant lists. Doubling those Psyker’s points killed them.

I’m probably gonna get this book and find that my Relic Contemptors and Leviathan cost more now. Which is honestly fine. So long as my Thunderbolt stays good, as it accidentally is now, I’m happy. If they drop it to BS4+ I’ll be sad. I’m cautiously hopeful it won’t be junk like the mess the IA Indexes were. Cautiously...

Don't you think, if GW would be confident in this book, they'd tout it as the FW book? a must have for everyone?

As it stands it has been multiple times delayed and the supposed improved and happy DKoK don't look nearly as enticing as they should have.

maybee i am just to salty atm to look at this unbiased but i think optimism, even just cautious one, is a bit misplaced here.

It's a shame that they've removed the Centaur. I guess it was pretty awful and impractical, but it's a cute little tank with a lot of personality, and removing the rules for it just seems petty.

Removing the DKoK Grenadiers I kind of get, and I suppose you could field them as Scions, so there's that, but in my mind the Grenadiers with their skull gasmasks, as well as the Centaur, the Thudd guns and the cavalry are some of the most distinctive Krieg models.

I have no idea how 40k treats officers and command squads in the current edition, but presumably you can still use the Quartermaster as an officer. As a medic the Quartermaster unit was a bit of a waste of points.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone.

Yeah, like the Chaplain Dread.

"Hardly anyone uses it" sounds like a wonderful dismissal there Johnny. Also quite callous.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone.

Yeah, like the Chaplain Dread.

"Hardly anyone uses it" sounds like a wonderful dismissal there Johnny. Also quite callous.

Well said.

These saw enough use to justify people to buy them at FW prices.
Enough said.

mortar_crew wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone.

Yeah, like the Chaplain Dread.

"Hardly anyone uses it" sounds like a wonderful dismissal there Johnny. Also quite callous.

Well said.

These saw enough use to justify people to buy them at FW prices.
Enough said.

The Chaplain Dread didn't get popular in the meta until it was already OOP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh... the Griffon is gone.

The unit had some history. How many kits started out as core GW models first before going FW.

At some point Gw will redo the basilisk kit and make it a dual kit... I’m thinking the second variant will be either medusa or griffin or some crazy new weapon like they did with wvyern for the hydra remake.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh... the Griffon is gone.

The unit had some history. How many kits started out as core GW models first before going FW.

I think just that. More units have crossed over from FW to 40k plastic, than the other way around. Baneblades, Trygon, Hydra are a few which come to mind.


I'm gonna pick the book up. Curious to see what changed about shadow specters and Lucius Pattern Drop Pods.

I get that a lot of people are rightly frustrated here, but doesn't this lead more credence to the rumors of a dedicated R&H and/or (albite unlikely) a Corsairs codex? Or at the very least, some substantial refresh in the next CSM and Eldari codices? I hate to say wait and see, but.... wait and see?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also oof... no more Gryphone Chimera. Hopefully the autocannon is added as an option in the AM book.

KillerAngel wrote:
I get that a lot of people are rightly frustrated here, but doesn't this lead more credence to the rumors of a dedicated R&H and/or (albite unlikely) a Corsairs codex? Or at the very least, some substantial refresh in the next CSM and Eldari codices? I hate to say wait and see, but.... wait and see?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also oof... no more Gryphone Chimera. Hopefully the autocannon is added as an option in the AM book.

No, it doesn't GW could've easily answered the players questions at the time, we even had a small campaign going and until now GW has not deemed it necessary to even answer.
So no.

Yeah, nope. One might still hold out hope that the Servants of the Abyss is a precursor to a renegade line, but it's pretty silly to expect that further culling the Corsairs would mean they get anything ever.

Have any FW lists returned from the dead? The siege-oriented Marine list, the Ork dread list the Tyrant's Legion come to mind, who even remembers those? Like Elysians and R&H, probably each of them could have been maintained with a page on the subfaction and a few datasheets to represent things that don't have easy equivalents.

SOA were THE instance were gw could've thrown out a WD list that would work and see how the traitor guardsmen dark mech etc do sales wise (btw the models did sell like hotcakes over here even though monopose AND limited) and promise to look into it in the future.
GW never bothered so why should that change now?

Corporate momentum. But, yeah, it would have been a great opportunity like with GSC/DW starting as a board game with highly restricted mini-factions.

Return of the Death Korps of Krieg

The first thing worth noting is that the Death Korps gain access to the full Astra Militarum arsenal from the codex. Now, the tanks, infantry, and auxiliaries available to other Regiments can also be used in this army – those Ogryns already come with gas masks ready to go!

The Death Korps are a particularly renowned regiment of course, so they also gain access to a bunch of units that no other regiment has. There are five updated datasheets that are bespoke to the Krieg sub-faction, from the Death Korps Marshal to the iconic Combat Engineer Squads who exemplify their regiment’s mastery of siegecraft.

Several other Death Korps of Krieg units that are no longer in production will be getting Warhammer Legends rules in November. This means that they can still be used in matched, narrative and open play games for those players who own the models and want to continue using them, though they won’t be considered a current part of the game for the purposes of official competitive events.

Death Korps Marshall Karis Venner
Death Korps Grenadier Squad
Quartermaster Cadre Squad
Death Rider Commissar
Storm Chimera

Alongside these, there will also be Warhammer Legends rules on the way for dozens of other classic Warhammer 40,000 units that are not currently on sale. These will include rare vehicles types, unusual Dreadnought patterns, obscure xenos contraptions and other classic Forge World units, so players can continue to use their full collection in their games.

Grenadiers are going to Legends.

i like how DKoK get's alot of their core identity stripped, especially for former assault list players which relied upon grenadiers.. much great, much wow i am sure thos ogryns will compensate that very well.

Those "former assault list players" will be able to use the Grenadier rules from Legends.

Literally all this does is make DKoK into a Guard+1 situation. They have signature units plus the Guard codex at their disposal.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Those "former assault list players" will be able to use the Grenadier rules from Legends.

Literally all this does is make DKoK into a Guard+1 situation. They have signature units plus the Guard codex at their disposal.

Kan, I get you have a big bias against DKoK and their way of guard warfare, but I really doubt most DKoK players see it that way, especially when Grenadiers are (or were) one of the best sculpts in their range.

Let's just say this, if all Leviathan dreadnoughts for both Chaos/Marines get Legended, would people be happy? Possibly for some people with regards to the competitive scene, but there's a lot of people who just got their big resin pieces invalidated, even with Legend use. Consider the fact that the Leviathan isn't even a sub-faction defining unit, so the loss of Grenadiers and a lot of the other DKoK units just are salt upon the wound of questionable doctrine rules.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Those "former assault list players" will be able to use the Grenadier rules from Legends.

Literally all this does is make DKoK into a Guard+1 situation. They have signature units plus the Guard codex at their disposal.

Kan, I get you have a big bias against DKoK and their way of guard warfare, but I really doubt most DKoK players see it that way, especially when Grenadiers are (or were) one of the best sculpts in their range.

Let's just say this, if all Leviathan dreadnoughts for both Chaos/Marines get Legended, would people be happy? Possibly for some people with regards to the competitive scene, but there's a lot of people who just got their big resin pieces invalidated, even with Legend use. Consider the fact that the Leviathan isn't even a sub-faction defining unit, so the loss of Grenadiers and a lot of the other DKoK units just are salt upon the wound of questionable doctrine rules.

It goes in essence against the very identity of the subfaction and frankly if we can and have to endure marine supplement after marine supplement GW could've been easily enough bothered to keep atleast this non marine faction atleast true to it's identity.

A shame to see shotguns with carcass shots go the way of the dodo. They were always very fun to use. Specially usefull to kill repentias in droves.

I like the heavy buffs to the Death Rider Cavalry. And I'll miss death korps having +1 WS. I always liked playing my horde charging into meele. And Krieg having a couple special units is not that much different from Cadia and Catachan having a couple of special characters.

With Grenadiers being removed to Legends and the ability to build my Assault Brigade removed from events (which comprise most of my play opportunity these days), coupled with some other stuff going on with the game, it really looks like GW just does not want me spending income on their products or engaging with 9th Edition once venues open back up.

I really can live with the garbage doctrine, it's not like DKoK special rules have really ever been particularly good and they've always paid an absurd price for their flavor. Hell, one can just use the Catachan doctrine instead anyway, it broadly does the same things (reflects better leadership, better CC ability, and something for the big guns). I'm not terribly butthurt about stuff like Storm Chimeras or Characters that never got models or the specifics of wargear like Carcass shells.

I really just wanted Grenadiers that could be equipped like normal Stormtrooper/Scion units and be taken as Troops without the DS option, with access to Chimeras and the ability to just be treated as the same Regiment as the rest of the force instead of the separate Tempestus faction. Didn't think that was hard, they made it work in previous editions, but apparently nope.

Until we see the Legends entry, I feel it's a bit early to say that they don't do what you want

"For added punch, you can opt for a Death Rider Command Squadron, who all have an extra attack and take up none of your precious Detachment slots when taken alongside your HQ, a Squadron Commander."

Foreshadowing Guard getting no slot command squads in the future?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Until we see the Legends entry, I feel it's a bit early to say that they don't do what you want

Even if they make all the army allowances in the Legends entry, as most of my play in recent years comes from events (usually the once-a-month tournament at a FLGS), where Legends units aren't sanctioned, it may not make much difference as those 60 Grenadiers will have to sit on the shelf either way.

If they just let Stormtroopers have access to Chimeras in the basic Codex (as they did before 2014...), I'd be less irritated, as just running them as Counts-As Tempestus would be fine, but that's not much of an option sadly.

Twoshoes23 wrote:
"For added punch, you can opt for a Death Rider Command Squadron, who all have an extra attack and take up none of your precious Detachment slots when taken alongside your HQ, a Squadron Commander."

Foreshadowing Guard getting no slot command squads in the future?

Possibly. This is what I've been talking about when I say this book could give us some clues as to how the new codexes will work.

I really wish they'd show us some stuff for other factions. This book has units for most of the factions in 40k, you'd think they'd want to generate some hype for everyone, in order to sell it. Maybe show a datasheet or two per faction. Show us they actually fixed some stuff.

Nerfs are hard to hype up. Better people buy in biind

tneva82 wrote:
Nerfs are hard to hype up. Better people buy in biind

That's what I'm afraid of. Though it would be hard to nerf some fw units any more.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Lots of stuff that barely any people actually use has gone.

Yeah, like the Chaplain Dread.

"Hardly anyone uses it" sounds like a wonderful dismissal there Johnny. Also quite callous.

The Chaplain Dread was OP by accident and OOP when it hit that status. Utterly poor example.

Don’t @ me with I’vE aLwAyS lOvEd ThE fLuFf oF ChApLaIn DrEaDs... Post was not callous in the slightest, and my post went on to list other categories of stuff that’s gone. But you cherry pick away, sigh.

100% with Vaktathi here. I don't feel FW needs to give special treatment or even very unique rules to their stuff, but I 100% believe that they should have kept army-defining units, even if all it is is a variant on something standard.

It takes so little effort to swap a special rule or allow a different weapon loadout or add something via a stratagem or whatever. Sure, be conservative and don't do a ton so it doesn't take up a lot of extra space; even dump cool things like vehicles or characters who can be reasonably approximated by vanilla versions (there's not that much difference between my power sword and storm shield named character vs. a vanilla captain that doesn't have a cool special rule or extra damage). But leaving out army-level options is just crappy to your customers and takes so little effort to not do, esp. when already legends so they're like 90%+ done, perhaps minus GW's questionable balancing.

Its GW new idea that they want everything to be simple as possible things.
I kinda like it TBH

What are you talking about? The SM codex is horribly bloated, is made up of a million rules from last edition that were used to successively patch a codex until it went from mediocre to OP (and rather than use the edition as an opportunity to streamline that they compounded it, while making old marines closer to new marines without making them actually equivalent (meaning a ton of redundancies) and GW just released a variant set of "space wolves" that are literally identical to the regular box.

There's nothing elegant or simple about this design philosophy.