Inside Imperial Armour: Compendium (or not inside...)

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**H.B.M.C.**

Jidmah wrote:
Orks are a mixed bag.

Any news on Grot Tanks? Friend of mine has a small fleet of them.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.

I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.

But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.

And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.

**Mothman**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Nicorex wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.

Why does it cost a CP?

all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged

ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?

well, that is gak?
like WTF level of gak?

To be fair, the Corpse-worshippers have the same rule.

Ye but I believe they get theirs and have chapter tactics that work on them, Because none of the chaos ones are hellbrutes they dont have legion traits

**Galas**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.

I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.

But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.

And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.

TBH I always found the 4++ unnecesary in such a big and offensively powerfull model. With bs3+ and 5++ would have been enough of a nerf I believe.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Galas wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.

I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.

But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.

And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.

TBH I always found the 4++ unnecesary in such a big and offensively powerfull model. With bs3+ and 5++ would have been enough of a nerf I believe.

It was a 300+ point model. Heaven forbid one of those be durable when Knights, a FAR bigger offender for large models having an Invul, run free just because.

**Crimson**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.

I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.

But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.

And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.

I play marines. It is not merely about balance, it is about some semblance of simulation and coherence. FW has silly fetish or producing superer and ancienter dreads that completely outclass the codex versions.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Also that video doesn't go into the Chapters or Marine characters at all does it?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.

I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.

But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.

And yet how many Chapters were a problem with the Leviathan? Just one! So yes it's just plain Marine and FW hate.

I play marines. It is not merely about balance, it is about some semblance of simulation and coherence. FW has silly fetish or producing superer and ancienter dreads that completely outclass the codex versions.

Well maybe when the Codex one was ever worth running you'd have a point, but as it stands nerfing FW Dreads because of butthurt doesn't make Codex Dreads better.

**changemod**

Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
Crimson wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Sounds like they tried to actually balance things. Leviathans were absurdly better than any other dreads.

I know, because they are absurdly better than other dreads.

But they shouldn't. It was exactly the sort of completely unrestrained fanboyish nonsense that gives FW bad name. This dreadnought has more wounds, better armour, better toughness, better WS and BS and crazy good weapons oh and it has invulnerable save too! Please! Two or three of those things would make it 'super dreadnought' what they did was just ludicrous. I'm really glad that the main studio rules team has taken over.

Have you seen their model? Have you seen their fluff?

They’re relics from the time of the heresy with massive reinforced bodies. If venerable dreads have a 2+ for skill, it makes no sense for contemptors/deredeos and especially leviathans to not. If it has a hugely reinforced body, it makes no sense for its toughness to be the same.

Again, just overprice them. I don’t give a flying crap if the model is “competitive”, if it’s too pricey for a tournament player to consider but fluff accurate then that’s basically win/win.

**Gadzilla666**

Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Nicorex wrote:
Mothman wrote:
Sicaran down 30 points, loses all its special rules, costs a CP and down 2 shots, in return gets +1 ap and +1 damage, not sure if thats worth it. Shame it lost its rend and anti flyer niche now its just a boring tank.

Why does it cost a CP?

all the dreadnoughts and tanks for chaos get "martial legacy" which means +1 cp for each one if battle forged

ALL OF THEM? So it costs me CP to use non-daemonic vehicles in my daemon hating Night Lords? That's ! Even the LOWs that already cost 3CP just for the detachment?

well, that is gak?
like WTF level of gak?

To be fair, the Corpse-worshippers have the same rule.

Yes, but those are relics for the loyalists, but for The Legions they are just the same vehicles they've always had since the Crusade and Heresy. You might as well have them pay 1CP for each suit of power armour. Not to mention the fact that loyalists have more options to begin with, csm needed some of these units, especially if you want to field a fluffy army from a Legion that traditionally doesn't like dealing with daemons.

But anyway, Goonhammer review up:

https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-imperial-armour-compendium-the-goonhammer-review/

Looks like besides our Dreadclaws getting 1st turn deep strike as well as other buffs, Chaos got screwed. Again.

**puma713**

changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?

**mortar_crew**

Jidmah wrote:
Orks are a mixed bag.

Warboss on Warbike got more attacks, more toughness and access to a killsaw, the wartrike aura, but got more expensive. Net win.
Mekboss Buzzgob can now repair 4 wounds in one turn and has MWBD for ork walkers. Awesome.
Kannonwagon is a renamed Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon that gives it +1 to hit when shooting, a decent side-grade to da boomer.
Meka-dread was split into meka-dread and mega dread again and got a massive point drop.
Nobz on warbikes are fast attack now, but are otherwise unchanged.

Zhardsnark, Lifta-Droppa, Warkopta and the Squiggoth got the axe.

Everything else lost all options that aren't sold by FW, including many favorites like big lobba, supa-skorchas. Gargantuan Squiggoth got a huge points hike, the other LoW remained as bad as they were.

In short, I'm happy that I've never spend any money on FW resin, and I'll start converting a mekboss buzzgob right now

I Missed the Kannonwagon being a battlewagon and not the older gunwagon... Stupid me.
Lifta-Droppa, Warkopta and the Squiggoth will be missed.
They were not cheap... Hence ends my Squiggoth brigade... (6 of them...

)

In short, I feel screwed to have spent so much money on FW resin over the years...

**puma713**

puma713 wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?

Nevermind. Found it:

Goonhammer wrote:
Leviathan Dreadnought. The big thicc dreadnought is somewhat more svelte now – it’s dropped from toughness 8 to toughness 7, and from WS/BS 2+ down to 3+ on both. Atomantic Shielding matches the contemptor, so only a 5+ invulnerable save rather than 4+, combining for an overall substantial drop in durability. There are some changes in weapons as well – stormcannon arrays trade 2 shots for an extra 12” range, melta lances gain blast but swap from 2d3 to d6 shots, and the grav-flux bombard doubles in shots and has a more standard grav weapon statline. As a bonus, leviathans can now take nipple volkite, rather than just heavy flamers. The melee weapons got a substantial shakeup too, the leviathan no longer loses attacks for taking guns, and instead always has at least 4 attacks – each siege claw gives an additional attack with that weapon, and the siege drill does 2d3 damage against most targets, or 6 damage against vehicles. All told, the leviathan takes a substantial hit to both offense and defense, balanced out by dropping all the way down to a base 220 points, and only up to 240 with the common double storm cannon loadout.

**changemod**

puma713 wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?

Yeah I’m looking at the video now. They have a +1 attack per close combat weapon at least, but 5++ invulnerable (I’m okay with that one, I want it tougher than visibly less tough dreads not having the most invinciblest invulnerable)

Bafflingly the telemon got none of those nerfs. Still S/T8, still 2+ skill (Not surprising, custodes.), still 4++ save, has the -1 damage for being a dreadnought, +1 attack per close combat weapon, 12 inch range on plasma flamers, only costs 260 points with most loadouts...

**Bellerophon**

Talking of things being missing - I've got a Warlord Titan, and one of the weapons I have for it is the Warlord Macro Gatling Blaster, which FW released about a year ago, still sell today and include in their Warlord Titan bundle. And yet it doesn't have rules in the new book. It's a £92 lump of resin that's bigger than a lot of super heavies on its own, that's one hell of an oversight.

puma713 wrote:
changemod wrote:
I’m hearing leviathans are T7 and 3+ skills, which is all I need to hear to know the guys writing this book have made almost negative effort to retain the fluff of units they’re adapting.

Can anyone confirm this? And any changes to the storm cannon array?

You can see the full datasheet at about 4:50 in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvv14xVrYoM

**Not Online!!!**

Sooo, they managed to instead of fixing up the hellstorm ac and consorts, to hand out reaper ac's and twin acs, the butcher now is frankly gak, the Hellbrute keyword lack is hillariously onesided considering that CSM allready had comparatively questionable trait support...

And they managed to feth up the decimator even more then it allready was, that is . ... impressive...

impressively incompetent even for GW standard.

**Sunny Side Up**

FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

**changemod**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

Venerable.

Venerable dreads have 2+ skills, relic dreads are rarer and fancier. If you want it to make sense for relic dreads to have a 3+, you have to come up with something else for venerable pilots to do other than “have 2+ skill stats”.

**Gadzilla666**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.

I expect this to be entertaining.

**Umbros**

Does the Levi now have Duty Eternal?

**Twoshoes23**

Is there a summary of the point/rule changes to astra militarum? Been wanting a big forgeworld tank for a while but have held of for this update. I heard most things got cheaper in points, carnodons got more wounds? Malcadors maybe worth it over a baneblade? Macharious?

**puma713**

Twoshoes23 wrote:
Is there a summary of the point/rule changes to astra militarum? Been wanting a big forgeworld tank for a while but have held of for this update. I heard most things got cheaper in points, carnodons got more wounds? Malcadors maybe worth it over a baneblade? Macharious?

This is a pretty good review all around:

https://www.goonhammer.com/9th-edition-imperial-armour-compendium-the-goonhammer-review/

**H.B.M.C.**

puma713 wrote:
Goonhammer wrote:Leviathan Dreadnought. The big thicc dreadnought is somewhat more svelte now – it’s dropped from toughness 8 to toughness 7, and from WS/BS 2+ down to 3+ on both. Atomantic Shielding matches the contemptor, so only a 5+ invulnerable save rather than 4+, combining for an overall substantial drop in durability. There are some changes in weapons as well – stormcannon arrays trade 2 shots for an extra 12” range, melta lances gain blast but swap from 2d3 to d6 shots, and the grav-flux bombard doubles in shots and has a more standard grav weapon statline. As a bonus, leviathans can now take nipple volkite, rather than just heavy flamers. The melee weapons got a substantial shakeup too, the leviathan no longer loses attacks for taking guns, and instead always has at least 4 attacks – each siege claw gives an additional attack with that weapon, and the siege drill does 2d3 damage against most targets, or 6 damage against vehicles. All told, the leviathan takes a substantial hit to both offense and defense, balanced out by dropping all the way down to a base 220 points, and only up to 240 with the common double storm cannon loadout.

Sounds like a pretty typical GW overbalance.

**Not Online!!!**

6-months the pendulum will swing back, but only if you pay £$EURCHF

**Slayer-Fan123**

Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

No different than nobody using the regular Dread profile over the Ven Dread. Bad argument is bad.

**Jidmah**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Orks are a mixed bag.
Any news on Grot Tanks? Friend of mine has a small fleet of them.

Their movement got more reliable (6"+d6 instead of 2d6"), +2 leadership and 3+ save (up from 4+) and the megatank got bumped to 11 wounds and lost mutiny, but degrades now.
The also lost the 6++ save and got ramshackle (same rule as trukk) instead.

Since their points remained the same, they got quite a bit better - though considering where they came from, they still aren't anywhere near a competitive choice but at least they can compete with kanz now.

**Galas**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.

I expect this to be entertaining.

Personally I believe no dreadnought should have WS2+ or BS2+. They are slow, killing machines, not slender fighters with extreme precision in each of their shots or meele attacks. Just like in fantasy ogres had a crap weapon skill but hitted like a truck, so all venerables, contemptor and leviathans should have 3+ in both stats. Maybe one could arguee WS3+ and BS2+ but I don't believe meele dreadnoughts need a disadvantage over shooting ones.

No matter, the changes are made.

**Cruentus**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.

I expect this to be entertaining.

Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:

These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.

There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought

**changemod**

Cruentus wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.

I expect this to be entertaining.

Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:

These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.

There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought

An awfully joyless and spiteful one.

**Not Online!!!**

Atleast it is propper grimdark.
Still iffy though rulewise considering until FAQ these will just be inferior to Loyalist versions .... once again one might add,

**Galas**

Cruentus wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
FW Dreads having randomly BS/WS 2+ for no reason was part of the problem, just so buy-to-win-people get a buff out of paying premium for a Dread (assuming they actually bought the proper FW ones) was one of the biggest problems from the start. Glad they fixed it.

Ideally, they simply would've had only 30K rules, and in 40K it's a pretty alternative model you can use for a Redemptor Dread or so, but if that wasn't an option, bringing them (somewhat ... still shouldn't have an invul IMO) was a good start.

Quick, explain why an ancient war machine from the time of The Heresy, piloted by an equally ancient champion who has fought for hundreds to thousands of years of constant warfare across the galaxy and literal hell, should have inferior skills to the venerable dreadnought of some thin blooded loyalist chapter from founding #142536.

I expect this to be entertaining.

Besides the fact that fluff doesn't equal rules, and the GW design space is limited, how about this:

These ancient war machines from the crusades are slowly deteriorating over the ten thousand years since the Heresy. Worn out parts and servos have to be replaced with technology used in current dreadnoughts, where the match is not exact, targeting mechanisms degrade, and the ability to recalibrate them is being lost, the armor has been patched and repatched so many times, that while imposing, weak spots have developed. And finally, after 10,000 years locked inside, the mighty warriors of a bygone age are slowly dying, and while they are still mighty warriors in their own right, their reflexes, minds, and interfaces continue to degenerate.

There you go. A fluffy reason why an ancient piece of machinery would operate at the same level as a current dreadnought

Not only that but just like the Primaris Dreadnoughts, Leviathans killed their "occupants" or make them go mad so actually probably any venerable dreadnought has more centuries or milleniums of experience than any leviathan dreadnought.