Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?
It is super odd to me that they can't, at the very least, say "CSM/Rubrics/etc etc" now have 2 wounds and cost X/Y/Z".
EDIT:
In the case of your bog-standard CSM, I still think that second wound, when combined with the points increase, is actually ultimately going to make them worse (especially now that you have an army in the meta that doesn't care about D2 weapons), but the point still stands ... should be a quick easy fix right?
If they see no other improvements other than the additional wound, and we don't get any good faction rules, you could be right. But I want to find out. I'm tired of the status quot. And even if it doesn't help bog standard CSM, I can't wait to see what it does for my Chosen, terminators, Warp Talons, and Raptors.
I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.
My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!
I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.
My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.
Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?
It is super odd to me that they can't, at the very least, say "CSM/Rubrics/etc etc" now have 2 wounds and cost X/Y/Z".
EDIT:
In the case of your bog-standard CSM, I still think that second wound, when combined with the points increase, is actually ultimately going to make them worse (especially now that you have an army in the meta that doesn't care about D2 weapons), but the point still stands ... should be a quick easy fix right?
Your edit stands. People would be upset that their CSM don't have improved traits and their abilities would be less effective. It wouldn't really solve many problems.
Without stacking negatives or opponent weapons that are D2 that butt up against a 5++ I just don't see a lot of gain.
I'm only asking as a Guard player for a reason to care, a reason to buy the new Codex. A codex I believe won't solve the issues my army faces. It will have the same models it had last edition and most likely only take things away possibly. I'll have to increasingly look to 3rd party manufacturers to the point where there'll be more 3rd Party than 1st for models.
All I'm asking is to throw a dog a bone, something with a little meat on it. Some special limited edition character everyonce in awhile that I have no chance of getting and isn't even a named unique unit is pretty bare bones and not something I'm excited for in the slightest.
I mean.. All of the problems would have been solved if everyone just did what GW wants and is been trying to subtly tell us for the last 3 years. Just play marines. Wouldin't that be great? We could all have new models all of the time.
Blue models.
Green models
Silver models.
Black models.
All of the time. All colours of the rainbow. All the same.
Just think. Wouldint it be great? Guys? Guyyys? Guuuuys!?
Argive wrote: I mean.. All of the problems would have been solved if everyone just did what GW wants and is been trying to subtly tell us for the last 3 years. Just play marines. Wouldin't that be great? We could all have new models all of the time.
Blue models.
Green models
Silver models.
Black models.
All of the time. All colours of the rainbow. All the same.
Just think. Wouldint it be great? Guys? Guyyys? Guuuuys!?
Can't we just play 30k at that point? It's still only different shades of Marines but at least there I can still build units that do what I want instead of being nailed to what GW could be bothered to squeeze onto one sprue. Also Guilliman's face is less squished there and Magnus doesn't have nipple-horns.
Matt Swain wrote: The marines get more than any other faction, more strategies, more buffs, more special rules, moiré strats..... of course there's resentment.
How dare you point things and facts out.
You just sound like a marine hater
Don Savik wrote: I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.
My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!
I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.
My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.
Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.
Don Savik wrote: I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.
My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!
I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.
My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.
Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.
^ that. the Ork warboss in Megaarmor has been moved to legends yes, but that shouldn't be an issue at all. "for fun games with your room mate" is literally the intent of legends.
Don Savik wrote: I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.
My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!
I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.
My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.
Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.
^ that. the Ork warboss in Megaarmor has been moved to legends yes, but that shouldn't be an issue at all. "for fun games with your room mate" is literally the intent of legends.
Ok well my friends are fine with it, lol. I should've clarified. But pre-covid I did like playing at stores. I guess I'm just annoyed about the direction going forward. I guess I'm dreading having to have a large list of house rules in the future.
Don Savik wrote: I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.
My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!
I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.
My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.
Stopping playing GW games is the only way, honestly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, honestly at this point OP needs to respond or the mods should just delete the thread. No point. Everyone sane, except for the bad faith arguers like Karol, knows what's up.
Don Savik wrote: I like Space Marines, I mean I got an entire Space Wolves army. I love the lore and look of em.
My main army is a giant ork force that sits on my shelf because its unplayable. Like really really bad and I've been playing them since the Matt Ward times. They also made my custom converted Mega Armor Warboss that's been playable for 20 years legends so I can't use that. Ghaz is only Goffs and I play Bad Moons. Oh boy I love (not) playing orks!
I also have a small eldar force I would literally pay Games Workshop 1000 dollars yesterday for new plastic aspect warriors so I can finish it up. They apparently don't want my money. I call them my 'elves on the shelf' lol.
My roommate has been my main opponent in the quarantine, and he only plays imperium. So my choices are: Imperium vs Imperium. Variety being the spice of life and all that, I've just chosen to focus on hobby things and third party skirmish games. Shelving armies is not fun, and I don't blame people for being jealous of marine releases.
Man, your roomates a dick for not letting you play with your custom converted warboss.
^ that. the Ork warboss in Megaarmor has been moved to legends yes, but that shouldn't be an issue at all. "for fun games with your room mate" is literally the intent of legends.
Ok well my friends are fine with it, lol. I should've clarified. But pre-covid I did like playing at stores. I guess I'm just annoyed about the direction going forward. I guess I'm dreading having to have a large list of house rules in the future.
even store games Honestly I'd not care if someone wanted to use a legends item myself. It's not like legends if filled with a buncha massivly OP options or anything.
But we do. Marines were almost never in a 2.0 8th ed codex state. Other armies were better, and were plastic. Yet they never outsold marines. If they did we would be seeing 2-3 tau books. Eldar probably are closest to that, but considering the rule set they get, they have to have a man on the inside, because there is no way in hell an army gets a broken codex each time it gets on. And it still doesn't outsell marines.
This is again the old vegen "meat" argument. Never tried, but if only we replaced normal meat with it, and gave it the same support, it would clearly beat out meat sells. I think not. Not everything has to be tested to know that it does not work. I don't have to eat glass to know it is not a good thing to eat.
In fact we don't. Give a faction, any faction, a cycle of 20-30 new plastic releases and a strong codex. They'll probably outsell marines then.
The vegan meat argument is (another) bad example. Make it a real competitor to meat: I mean make it cheaper and with better taste and it'll probably outsell meat. As long as it's more expensive than meat it'll never outsell it. The process of making veggie food is more expensive than producing meat, that's why veggie stuff is currently a niche. It's really the only reason.
Just like armies: if a faction gets both a solid codex and a massive cycle of new releases it'll probably sell a lot. Let SM collect dust for a couple of years (like the majority of the current armies) and that faction will definitely outsell marines, and not by a small margin.
Da Boss wrote: Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?
for gw to be able to throw stuff that isn't marines under the bus so that it can produce more marines whilest also having good PR by offering a final version that you can use for the models which were often not cheap, in order to no piss off their customers of these specific units/ models.
sadly Gw did the rules in there in an even worse fashion then gw allready does them so the chances for anyone even seeing f.e. R&H as R&H is basically 0...
An even better example - even the Marine apologists seem to be able to agree that the Primaris LT thing is just redundant and silly at this point. So, if we can agree that having a boatload of essentially meaningless variants of the exact same thing, for an army that wasn't even really hurting for ANYTHING in the first place is silly ... what do you make of DE finally getting a release and it's ... a new and worse Lilith Hesperax because ... reasons? No keradruahk, no Vect, no new Warrior kit - just - a resculpt of a character that absolutely did not need it. I don't play DE but that HAS to feel like a pretty giant middle finger for the people who do ...
SemperMortis wrote: [
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition.
2e. Imperial Guard. And I'm NOT counting the fact that there were 5 different regiments sculpted.
So back in 1993 GW released more new Imperial Guard kits than they did for Space Marines. Can you prove that? there used to be a website that had a rough list of all units released per edition but I can't find it now.
But even taking that at face value, you are saying GW tried it 28ish years ago
Yeah, to be clear, the claim here is that when I, a grown man with gray hairs, a 401k, a mortgage, and a kid on the way, was ONE
I think it would take more than models for other lines to catch up to Marines across the playerbase.
Fluff, even the entire setting in general, is geared towards Space Marines are the big awesome heroes.
Kabalite Warriors are still as perfect as the day the kit came out...
But yes. I feel safe in saying Marines are the most popular faction because they've been in every starter set for the last 28 years (I'm guessing in Rogue Trader too but it predates my knowledge of the game.)
I think in the 90s and much of the 2000s Orks were by far the second most played faction. You saw them in stores, you saw them in White Dwarf etc etc. It turns out however that if you then run the faction into the ground and make it difficult/impossible to buy HQ choices, its popularity wanes. (I can't remember the internet drama, but wasn't there some outrage a couple of years ago that GW claimed they didn't have 4k of Ork models painted?)
By contrast CWE models may be old enough to drink hahaha (still great though) - but so long as Eldar were top tier or thereabouts, they remained second only to SM in terms of popularity. Its only times like now (and in Index era 8th, and for about half of fifth edition) where they've sucked and seemed to disappear.
As a Custodes player, I would gladly let my faction get passed over if it meant Eldar got a new set of sculpts or models. My faction shouldn't even exist, and I want to see more diversity in the armies available to play in the game. 14 different flavors of Power Armor are boring, and I want to see more interesting Eldar/Nid armies, than another 4-5 GTs with the same Astartes armies winning out every time.
I tried to look at legends to figure out the ratio of marine stuff going to legends vs. other factions, but I looked at DE first, an army that has lost loads of options, and noticed that only two of those options are available any more in legends.
So...I guess there's no point? There's also the point that the marine range is so bloody huge that losing one kit represents a much smaller % than losing a kit for a smaller range like DE.
I think in the 90s and much of the 2000s Orks were by far the second most played faction. You saw them in stores, you saw them in White Dwarf etc etc. It turns out however that if you then run the faction into the ground and make it difficult/impossible to buy HQ choices, its popularity wanes. (I can't remember the internet drama, but wasn't there some outrage a couple of years ago that GW claimed they didn't have 4k of Ork models painted?)
Yeah, I started collecting orks exactly in that period as a kid; before that I just painted random models. After 2nd edition Orks got a huge new line of models and a fairly competitive codex. Proof that enhancing a faction with good rules and tons of new stuff makes that faction just as popular as SM .
I think it would take more than models for other lines to catch up to Marines across the playerbase.
Fluff, even the entire setting in general, is geared towards Space Marines are the big awesome heroes.
I don't know that anyone thinks the other factions need to "catch up" per-say. At this point that would nearly impossible. It's more like, where other armies have the goal of being brought out of the '90s, the marines are living in 3077. You're never going to catch up at this point, but if the other factions could at least stop being outright ignored, I think everyone would be happy.
Yeah, honestly at this point OP needs to respond or the mods should just delete the thread. No point. Everyone sane, except for the bad faith arguers like Karol, knows what's up.
Lock it maybe, but don't delete it. The fact that we've managed to generate as many pages as we have without a lock happening is a small miracle. Would be a shame to just delete that. I say lock it now while we're ahead, and make it a sticky so we don't need to do this again in two weeks.
If they see no other improvements other than the additional wound, and we don't get any good faction rules, you could be right. But I want to find out. I'm tired of the status quot. And even if it doesn't help bog standard CSM, I can't wait to see what it does for my Chosen, terminators, Warp Talons, and Raptors.
i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.
But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?
you mean like how the captain on bike isnt legend but the lord on bike is?
i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.
But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"
I thought they made some great strides towards that in Faith and Fury. As an Iron Warriors player, I really enjoy using the IW rules out of that. I'm hoping they keep some version of that in the new CSM book (for all the Legions of course - not just IW). Some of them need tweaked as they weren't quite good enough, but I was, at least, really happy with what IW got from that.
Vladmir: I mean, why do for example Trueborn get a Legends datasheet but not other stuff like Vect? I would have thought they would have put in Legends sheets for all the stuff they used to make maybe? But it seems like they do it fairly randomly.
And sure, if there are discrepencies between factions like you mention between I assume Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, why is that?
Part of the main issue is, at least my little 'generation' of players were largely brought on by the video games Dawn of War 1 and 2, where 40k was presented as a 'factional game' similar to a World of Warcraft or I guess a Starcraft - a sci-fi universe where you pick which faction you like and they've all got a roughly equal shake.
At least, that's how they're presented in DOW. The problem is, the game doesn't actually function like DOW - if someone joins now, they're presented with a game where roughly 1/3 of the factions are loyalist marines, 50% of the model releases are loyalist marines, and 90% of the fiction is about loyalist marines, who incidentally win nearly all the time in said background fiction.
Every time some new standard policy gets rolled out, Loyalist Marines seem to get an exception
-For 2 years, only loyalist marines had a 'no allies bonus' rule, and now, loyalist marines are so far the only faction that gets any kind of option to KEEP part of that no allies bonus if they have certain allies. Even Death Guard are not allowed to keep part of their contagion rule if they bring Nurgle Chaos Daemons.
-All throughout the rollout of the Custom Subfaction Traits, the tradeoff of taking the comparatively more power-gameable custom traits was not getting to have the occasionally key unique strat, relic, or warlord trait from one of the core traits. Except for Loyalist Marines, who incidentally also get 6x as many unique warlord traits, relics, strats, AND get a unique psychic power table as well. But it's chill if they also get to use the powergameable custom traits on top of all that, while everyone else is limited.
-Every time a new kit comes out for an existing unit, it replaces those models and the rules from the new kit are the only rules - you lose any options not present in the new kit. Like the old models? Youv'e got a window of 'until the new model is officially released' to get them. Oh, but not loyalist marines, of course, obvious replacement kits like Outriders are released ALONGSIDE existing kits like Bikers, and GW will happily engage in a nice spot of power creepin' to make sure those old kits are still useful compared to the new ones...and of course if the old kits then outshine the new ones those need buffed....why but then the players of classic units need buffs to compete....but nobody's buying our new units now sadface we have to buff them...
-No model, no rules being enforced harder than ever? Why yes, but not for good old loyalist space marines! We need people to buy codexes, so we'll gladly give loyalist space marine players rules like Deathwatch Veterans, who have all the weaponry options from the Deathwatch Veterans kit AND the Sternguard kit included in their datasheet, that's fine. You've also got units that just don't have kits like Intercessor Death Company - but of course Bloodbrides and Trueborn had to be deleted, units that just used the bits from the existing kabalite and wych kits that are just as, if not more compatible than the various marine kits.
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Da Boss wrote: Vladmir: I mean, why do for example Trueborn get a Legends datasheet but not other stuff like Vect? I would have thought they would have put in Legends sheets for all the stuff they used to make maybe? But it seems like they do it fairly randomly.
And sure, if there are discrepencies between factions like you mention between I assume Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, why is that?
If you made me guess, it's because legends is 0% priority and if some poor sod wants to do it, he has to do it on his own time while not getting paid on top of what is almost certainly one of those lovely "Passion Project" work environments where a ruthless corporation exploits the fact that people view any artistic pursuits as a fun activity rather than work that should be paid for.
GW's design team decisions could be viewed as incompetence, but they could also be viewed as the result of 80 hour work weeks with an additional filter of corporate trash people meddling with the rules after the designers are done with them.
i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.
But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"
I thought they made some great strides towards that in Faith and Fury. As an Iron Warriors player, I really enjoy using the IW rules out of that. I'm hoping they keep some version of that in the new CSM book (for all the Legions of course - not just IW). Some of them need tweaked as they weren't quite good enough, but I was, at least, really happy with what IW got from that.
yeah,faith and fury made my night lords actually fluffy.... as long as i didnt run out of CP that is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: Vladmir: I mean, why do for example Trueborn get a Legends datasheet but not other stuff like Vect? I would have thought they would have put in Legends sheets for all the stuff they used to make maybe? But it seems like they do it fairly randomly.
And sure, if there are discrepencies between factions like you mention between I assume Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, why is that?
because when they introduced legends, vect didnt have a datasheet while trueborn did. Its stupid but thats how it is. I really hope we get him back some day.
If they see no other improvements other than the additional wound, and we don't get any good faction rules, you could be right. But I want to find out. I'm tired of the status quot. And even if it doesn't help bog standard CSM, I can't wait to see what it does for my Chosen, terminators, Warp Talons, and Raptors.
i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.
But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"
I'm betting instead of counting as troops, Raptors will instead gain obsec in a Night Lords Outrider detachment. I believe that would match up to how terminators work for DA Deathwing. I may be remembering that wrong though.
I think the best that the Undivided Legions can hope for regarding troops is that Chosen become troops for them, just like Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. The additional attack, +1 leadership, melee weapons in addition to ranged weapons, and availability of special weapons would give us something to truly compete with intercessors and their equivalents like Hellblasters.
Da Boss wrote: Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?
you mean like how the captain on bike isnt legend but the lord on bike is?
Another example of No Model No Rules not being applied consistently.
Tycho wrote:I thought they made some great strides towards that in Faith and Fury. As an Iron Warriors player, I really enjoy using the IW rules out of that. I'm hoping they keep some version of that in the new CSM book (for all the Legions of course - not just IW). Some of them need tweaked as they weren't quite good enough, but I was, at least, really happy with what IW got from that.
I agree. The Night Lords rules in Faith and Fury were excellent, and I hope we see more like them in the new CSM codex. But they need rules that allow the Legions to work as they should without massive CP expenditures. I'd also personally welcome fluffy limits to what the Legions can take similar to Traitor Legions, along with rules to make them function without those things. Night Lords shouldn't have marks, and marks shouldn't be needed for CSM units to function properly unless those units must have those marks, like the various Cult Marines and mark locked daemon engines.
The Death Guard codex was excellent (barring the ridiculous equipment rules for Plague Marines and Blightlords) so maybe there is hope.
I'm betting instead of counting as troops, Raptors will instead gain obsec in a Night Lords Outrider detachment. I believe that would match up to how terminators work for DA Deathwing. I may be remembering that wrong though.
I think the best that the Undivided Legions can hope for regarding troops is that Chosen become troops for them, just like Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. The additional attack, +1 leadership, melee weapons in addition to ranged weapons, and availability of special weapons would give us something to truly compete with intercessors and their equivalents like Hellblasters.
I agree. The Night Lords rules in Faith and Fury were excellent, and I hope we see more like them in the new CSM codex. But they need rules that allow the Legions to work as they should without massive CP expenditures. I'd also personally welcome fluffy limits to what the Legions can take similar to Traitor Legions, along with rules to make them function without those things. Night Lords shouldn't have marks, and marks shouldn't be needed for CSM units to function properly unless those units must have those marks, like the various Cult Marines and mark locked daemon engines.
The Death Guard codex was excellent (barring the ridiculous equipment rules for Plague Marines and Blightlords) so maybe there is hope.
Yeah, i'd settle for obsec on them.
Chosen as troops would be nice if your whole army is undivided but i wouldnt want to force certain legions to be undivided (to keep options open for players to develop lore for their armies).
Make marks give stats instead of unlocking wombo combos, delete VotLW (we know its staying since DG kept their renamed variant), delete endless cacophony and then i'd be really happy.
I wouldn't care that Space Marines are constantly getting tons of new stuff if all the other armies that desparately need updates were't being left decades in the past.
It rubs me the wrong way when even GW is mocking 'haha here comes the 10th Primaris Lieutenant', when almost all the Phoenix Lords and the damn Avatar of Khaine are still using sculpts from the early 90s.
Make all the pointless Space Marine models you want, AFTER you give support to all the other armies in your range that need it.
I'm betting instead of counting as troops, Raptors will instead gain obsec in a Night Lords Outrider detachment. I believe that would match up to how terminators work for DA Deathwing. I may be remembering that wrong though.
I think the best that the Undivided Legions can hope for regarding troops is that Chosen become troops for them, just like Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. The additional attack, +1 leadership, melee weapons in addition to ranged weapons, and availability of special weapons would give us something to truly compete with intercessors and their equivalents like Hellblasters.
I agree. The Night Lords rules in Faith and Fury were excellent, and I hope we see more like them in the new CSM codex. But they need rules that allow the Legions to work as they should without massive CP expenditures. I'd also personally welcome fluffy limits to what the Legions can take similar to Traitor Legions, along with rules to make them function without those things. Night Lords shouldn't have marks, and marks shouldn't be needed for CSM units to function properly unless those units must have those marks, like the various Cult Marines and mark locked daemon engines.
The Death Guard codex was excellent (barring the ridiculous equipment rules for Plague Marines and Blightlords) so maybe there is hope.
Yeah, i'd settle for obsec on them.
Chosen as troops would be nice if your whole army is undivided but i wouldnt want to force certain legions to be undivided (to keep options open for players to develop lore for their armies).
Make marks give stats instead of unlocking wombo combos, delete VotLW (we know its staying since DG kept their renamed variant), delete endless cacophony and then i'd be really happy.
I think you misunderstand what I mean by "Undivided Legions". The Undivided Legions are: Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Black Legion. That designation has nothing to do with what marks etc are taken in armies of those respective Legions. I'm merely suggesting that those Legions get a "better troops option", just like the God aligned Legions.
Mark availability would be handled similarly to Traitor Legions, eg: none for Night Lords or Iron Warriors, any marks for Word Bearers, but no units that require a mark (no Cult Marines), and no limitations for Black Legion (letting anyone join being "their thing"). Those limitations would then be balanced out by the Legion abilities.
Those kinds of rules are part of what made Traitor Legions, and CSM 3.5, so great, at least for me. No two Legions were alike. They brought different units, and played differently. That is just my opinion though, and I'm sure others would disagree.
Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!
We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain
On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.
Xenomancers wrote: Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money.
We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain
On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.
Isnt the Invader ATV the primaris attack bike?
Isnt the Gladiator Valiant the primaris vindicator?
for the rest, yeah sure, we're "missing" these i guess....
Xenomancers wrote: Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!
We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain
On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.
Something being expected does not make it less annoying. I expect every movie to be produced by hollywood to have a budget that requires its story to be so simplified and basic that every human being on the planet can comprehend it regardless of what language or culture they originate from, because that's what's required for that movie to turn any kind of a profit.
That still makes me angry, and it results in me laughing at these stupid designed-by-committee movies and the fact that I basically never pay for new movies anymore.
I also expect GW to produce nothing but space marines - the result of that is instead of buying another...god, at this point like 500 points of GW miniatures, I bought a 3d printer and I'm learning various software packages to pose my own Aspect Warrior models for 25 cents apiece instead of paying 10$ a model for a fossilized shaving cream recast of some thing some artist sculpted when I was 2 years old.
the_scotsman wrote: -For 2 years, only loyalist marines had a 'no allies bonus' rule, and now, loyalist marines are so far the only faction that gets any kind of option to KEEP part of that no allies bonus if they have certain allies. Even Death Guard are not allowed to keep part of their contagion rule if they bring Nurgle Chaos Daemons.
That's not really the same thing. One is a character here or there. The other is an entire army.
-All throughout the rollout of the Custom Subfaction Traits, the tradeoff of taking the comparatively more power-gameable custom traits was not getting to have the occasionally key unique strat, relic, or warlord trait from one of the core traits. Except for Loyalist Marines, who incidentally also get 6x as many unique warlord traits, relics, strats, AND get a unique psychic power table as well. But it's chill if they also get to use the powergameable custom traits on top of all that, while everyone else is limited.
Yep, not great.
-Every time a new kit comes out for an existing unit, it replaces those models and the rules from the new kit are the only rules - you lose any options not present in the new kit. Like the old models? Youv'e got a window of 'until the new model is officially released' to get them. Oh, but not loyalist marines, of course, obvious replacement kits like Outriders are released ALONGSIDE existing kits like Bikers, and GW will happily engage in a nice spot of power creepin' to make sure those old kits are still useful compared to the new ones...and of course if the old kits then outshine the new ones those need buffed....why but then the players of classic units need buffs to compete....but nobody's buying our new units now sadface we have to buff them...
Has there been an instance where people actually wanted the old models? Metals I might understand, but crummy plastics? Outriders got a point increase and it seems they weren't even particularly shining strong. But then you'd prefer GW make all the old kits bad? What exactly are you attempting to argue here with this tinfoil nonsense?
-No model, no rules being enforced harder than ever? Why yes, but not for good old loyalist space marines! We need people to buy codexes, so we'll gladly give loyalist space marine players rules like Deathwatch Veterans, who have all the weaponry options from the Deathwatch Veterans kit AND the Sternguard kit included in their datasheet, that's fine. You've also got units that just don't have kits like Intercessor Death Company - but of course Bloodbrides and Trueborn had to be deleted, units that just used the bits from the existing kabalite and wych kits that are just as, if not more compatible than the various marine kits.
We'll see what happens. The impetus for Bloodbrides is entirely detached from what happened to PM. They were almost the same damn unit with just +1A. I'd bet you'll get a Bloodbrides stratagem like Vet Intercessors.
That's not really the same thing. One is a character here or there. The other is an entire army.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
Has there been an instance where people actually wanted the old models? Metals I might understand, but crummy plastics? Outriders got a point increase and it seems they weren't even particularly shining strong. But then you'd prefer GW make all the old kits bad? What exactly are you attempting to argue here with this tinfoil nonsense?
i'd much rather have the old MK3/MK4 models for my CSM than the new "trims-o-plenty" ones.
the_scotsman wrote: -For 2 years, only loyalist marines had a 'no allies bonus' rule, and now, loyalist marines are so far the only faction that gets any kind of option to KEEP part of that no allies bonus if they have certain allies. Even Death Guard are not allowed to keep part of their contagion rule if they bring Nurgle Chaos Daemons.
That's not really the same thing. One is a character here or there. The other is an entire army.
I'm talking about the fact that I can bring my Deathwatch army with a detachment of Blood Angels and I get to keep Combat Doctrines.
DG do not get to keep any of their Purity Bonus abilities if they take a detachment from even a restricted, fluff-driven portion of one other codex. Marines get free access to 8 different codexes (which we have to consider as 8 codexes remember because that justifies them getting 8x the model releases and being 30% of the play pool in competitive)
-Every time a new kit comes out for an existing unit, it replaces those models and the rules from the new kit are the only rules - you lose any options not present in the new kit. Like the old models? Youv'e got a window of 'until the new model is officially released' to get them. Oh, but not loyalist marines, of course, obvious replacement kits like Outriders are released ALONGSIDE existing kits like Bikers, and GW will happily engage in a nice spot of power creepin' to make sure those old kits are still useful compared to the new ones...and of course if the old kits then outshine the new ones those need buffed....why but then the players of classic units need buffs to compete....but nobody's buying our new units now sadface we have to buff them...
Has there been an instance where people actually wanted the old models? Metals I might understand, but crummy plastics? Outriders got a point increase and it seems they weren't even particularly shining strong. But then you'd prefer GW make all the old kits bad? What exactly are you attempting to argue here with this tinfoil nonsense?
I'd prefer for them to avoid the absolutely absurd datasheet bloat that results from them replacing the entire marine range, already the biggest range in the game, and releasing the new models ALONGSIDE the existing range, resulting in 7 page wargear lists and 250 datasheet codexes.
Scout Snipers and Eliminators do not both need to exist.
Outriders and Bikers do not both need to exist
Tacticals and Intercessors do not both need to exist
Tactical Termies and Aggressors do not both need to exist.
Would I prefer them to have just left goddamn well enough alone and allowed marines to remain the most up-to-date model range in the entire game as of 7th ed, and not Iphone 10 11 12 13 14 FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER them? Yes. If they're not going to do that, would I prefer they at least have the common decency to properly replace the existing models instead of trying to keep both ranges alive, taking up 99.999% of their design space and time?
Xenomancers wrote: Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!
We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain
On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.
As others have mentioned, the ATV is the primaris Assault Bike equivalent, and the Gladiator Valiant is the primaris Vindicator equivalent. End the silly segregation of transports and the current drop pods work fine. Give Assault Intercessors jump packs and you have your Jump Infantry.
The demand for flyers is what always confounds me. What says the flyers loyalists already have aren't being piloted by primaris? What would adding a flyer with the PRIMARIS keyword accomplish?
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?
Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.
Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?
Xenomancers wrote: Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!
We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain
On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.
Something being expected does not make it less annoying. I expect every movie to be produced by hollywood to have a budget that requires its story to be so simplified and basic that every human being on the planet can comprehend it regardless of what language or culture they originate from, because that's what's required for that movie to turn any kind of a profit.
That still makes me angry, and it results in me laughing at these stupid designed-by-committee movies and the fact that I basically never pay for new movies anymore.
I also expect GW to produce nothing but space marines - the result of that is instead of buying another...god, at this point like 500 points of GW miniatures, I bought a 3d printer and I'm learning various software packages to pose my own Aspect Warrior models for 25 cents apiece instead of paying 10$ a model for a fossilized shaving cream recast of some thing some artist sculpted when I was 2 years old.
I'm talking about the fact that I can bring my Deathwatch army with a detachment of Blood Angels and I get to keep Combat Doctrines.
DG do not get to keep any of their Purity Bonus abilities if they take a detachment from even a restricted, fluff-driven portion of one other codex. Marines get free access to 8 different codexes (which we have to consider as 8 codexes remember because that justifies them getting 8x the model releases and being 30% of the play pool in competitive)
I'm not even talking Imperial Agents.
Ok, sure but doctrines aren't really as big of a thing as super docs. DG still gets plague companies. They just don't get Nurgle's Gift.
I'd prefer for them to avoid the absolutely absurd datasheet bloat that results from them replacing the entire marine range, already the biggest range in the game, and releasing the new models ALONGSIDE the existing range, resulting in 7 page wargear lists and 250 datasheet codexes.
Scout Snipers and Eliminators do not both need to exist.
Outriders and Bikers do not both need to exist
Tacticals and Intercessors do not both need to exist
Tactical Termies and Aggressors do not both need to exist.
Would I prefer them to have just left goddamn well enough alone and allowed marines to remain the most up-to-date model range in the entire game as of 7th ed, and not Iphone 10 11 12 13 14 FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER them? Yes. If they're not going to do that, would I prefer they at least have the common decency to properly replace the existing models instead of trying to keep both ranges alive, taking up 99.999% of their design space and time?
I would wager there are lots of people who would oppose such a move. Why would we complain about PM and then turn around and advocate wiping out a massive swath of models in one go?
Sure they could have handled it differently and just scaled up like CSM, but we're well past that possibility now.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?
Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.
Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?
Either way it's GW marine favouritism.
I feel like wires are getting crossed.
You can't take Ultramarines and Blood Angels and still get Scions and Savage Echoes.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?
Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.
Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?
Either way it's GW marine favouritism.
Is this a new deathgaurd stipulation? Cause loyalist marines have the most stringent cross faction rules.
Can take 2 marine factions but you lose super doctrines. Can take marine and a non marine faction but you lose all doctrines.
I'm talking about the fact that I can bring my Deathwatch army with a detachment of Blood Angels and I get to keep Combat Doctrines.
DG do not get to keep any of their Purity Bonus abilities if they take a detachment from even a restricted, fluff-driven portion of one other codex. Marines get free access to 8 different codexes (which we have to consider as 8 codexes remember because that justifies them getting 8x the model releases and being 30% of the play pool in competitive)
I'm not even talking Imperial Agents.
Ok, sure but doctrines aren't really as big of a thing as super docs. DG still gets plague companies. They just don't get Nurgle's Gift.
This is the kind of thing that frustrates me with you. You seem like you're thinking about things, you seem like you're putting things out there in good faith and you're not just disingenuously saying whatever you need to say to throw up a smokescreen - but then you say things like this.
This argument appears to be entirely, totally reliant on someone just taking your word at face value and just not knowing what the rules "Plague Companies" and "Nurgles Gift" do.
It doesn't actually matter that you consider army-wide -1AP on a whole category of weapons every turn to be "not as big a deal" as the part of the rule you lose. Death Guard lose the ENTIRETY of their army-wide no-allies bonus rule if they take any allies, loyalist marines DO NOT.
The equivalent rule to Plague Companies is not Combat Doctrines, it's part of Chapter Tactics (Well, it's 1/6 of Chapter Tactics. Choosing a Chapter for your detachment gives you 6 warlord traits, 6+ stratagems, 6 relics, and 6 psychic powers, choosing a Plague Company gives you 1 Trait 1 Relic 1 Strat.)
There's no army-wide benefit to picking a Plague Company. Loyalist Marines get not just one but two army-wide special purity rules, and they lose 1 of the 2 of them when they take other marines as allies.
So either you do not know what those rules do, or you just threw out that rule...to have what looks like a counter-argument if someone was too lazy to go look up what those rules you referenced actually do. Either way, doesn't look great, and it screams "I am making arguments just to maintain my personal level of Internet Points."
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?
Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.
Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?
Either way it's GW marine favouritism.
Is this a new deathgaurd stipulation? Cause loyalist marines have the most stringent cross faction rules.
Can take 2 marine factions but you lose super doctrines. Can take marine and a non marine faction but you lose all doctrines.
Death Guard don't get the equivalent of a superdoctrine rule, and just gain one rule for going mono-faction (A -1 Toughness aura for enemy units that are within 1" of DG units, the aura size increasing as time goes on)
Given that -1 Toughness is a rule that sometimes gives you one die shift of benefit in trying to kill something, it is equivalent to an extra -1AP on a particular category of weapon.
So yes, DG benefits are more stringent than SM benefits. SM lose 50% of their bonus rules if they ally marines, 100% if they ally other Imperium (None if they ally Imperial Agents) and DG lose 100% if they ally any other Chaos faction at all full stop.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?
Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.
Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?
Either way it's GW marine favouritism.
Is this a new deathgaurd stipulation? Cause loyalist marines have the most stringent cross faction rules.
Can take 2 marine factions but you lose super doctrines. Can take marine and a non marine faction but you lose all doctrines.
They have the most bonuses too.
Marines get...
Pure <CHAPTER> Super Doctrines
Pure Astartes-but you can still take Agents
Doctrines
Pure Detachment Chapter Tactics
Most other factions get subfaction traits for a pure detachment. Necrons get Protocols for pure <DYNASTY>, but those are a lot weaker than Doctrines or Super Doctrines. Sisters get their minor buff for pure Sororitas, and now Death Guard get a pretty nifty bonus for staying pure Death Guard.
So sure, Marines have the strictest requirements to get more than anyone else does. Doctrines and Nurgle's Gift are pretty comparable-so the fact that if you stay pure to one chapter you get EVEN MORE doesn't exactly seem the best argument.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.
Okay thanks for clarifying have not seen the new DG rules. This is likely a trend to come. Soup is going the way of the bye bye. Which is par for the course for GW - allied detachment costing CP at the start of the game was enough of a nerf for taking allies. Losing rules for taking allies is unnecessary.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.
Well it is the same logic of super heavy aux detachments not getting your army trait even if they are all the same faction.
Same logic of the silent king not benefiting from the Szarekhan trait even while having Szarekhan keyword.
Same logic that incubi should be excluded from getting kabal traits...
It is just bad rules. It blows but it is what we got. The reality is competitive play can not tolerate cross faction play - because it dominates the scene. Even right now being able to take multiple harlequin masques is extremely oppressive. It just needs to go away and die. What people really want is something in between tournament and narrative play but are unwilling to do it for fear of being "casual". Unfortunately - GW makes rules at a snails place. So the only way to really fix it is to house rule. Just do it - forge the damn narrative!
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
That's not what's being asked. If you include any demons at all, literally everything DG get for being "DG" goes away. You get nothing. Ally a, Inquisitor w/SM - you lose literally nothing at all. Ally a second SM chapter, you only lose the Super Doctrine, as opposed to losing everything.
I don't think very many necessarily want Nurgle Demons to also pick up the DG bonus abilities (no one can do that atm and it would be a cluster imo), but you also shouldn't lose them just because you included a Nurgle Demon detachment. This makes no sense to me at all.
Xenomancers wrote: Okay thanks for clarifying have not seen the new DG rules. This is likely a trend to come. Soup is going the way of the bye bye. Which is par for the course for GW - allied detachment costing CP at the start of the game was enough of a nerf for taking allies. Losing rules for taking allies is unnecessary.
yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.
I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?
"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.
Well it is the same logic of super heavy aux detachments not getting your army trait even if they are all the same faction.
Same logic of the silent king not benefiting from the Szarekhan trait even while having Szarekhan keyword.
Same logic that incubi should be excluded from getting kabal traits...
It is just bad rules. It blows but it is what we got. The reality is competitive play can not tolerate cross faction play - because it dominates the scene. Even right now being able to take multiple harlequin masques is extremely oppressive. It just needs to go away and die. What people really want is something in between tournament and narrative play but are unwilling to do it for fear of being "casual". Unfortunately - GW makes rules at a snails place. So the only way to really fix it is to house rule. Just do it - forge the damn narrative!
Holy feth is Xenomancers advocating for placing restrictions on one's army building to increase the amount of fun both players can have in the game???
it's almost like the idea that a 'proper wargame' is a mental contest of wills between two people that ideally are total strangers and have no idea what units or army the other is bringing to the table is buying into a marketing-driven perversion of the original activity - playing out historical battles and 'what if' scenarios using an agreed-upon set of rules so that two people can sit down at the same table opposite one another and see what would happen in various different situations.
And it's almost like the wider and broader you make the ruleset, the more interesting scenarios you allow to be accounted for, but the more it's going to become essentially un-balanceable via any kind of universal points system.
So if you want the variety of a sprawling game system, but you don't want the imbalance of trying to play totally random pickup games with total strangers, the best course forward is to talk to your opponent and figure out how to make the game scenario as close as possible.
the_scotsman wrote: This is the kind of thing that frustrates me with you. You seem like you're thinking about things, you seem like you're putting things out there in good faith and you're not just disingenuously saying whatever you need to say to throw up a smokescreen - but then you say things like this.
This argument appears to be entirely, totally reliant on someone just taking your word at face value and just not knowing what the rules "Plague Companies" and "Nurgles Gift" do.
It doesn't actually matter that you consider army-wide -1AP on a whole category of weapons every turn to be "not as big a deal" as the part of the rule you lose. Death Guard lose the ENTIRETY of their army-wide no-allies bonus rule if they take any allies, loyalist marines DO NOT.
The equivalent rule to Plague Companies is not Combat Doctrines, it's part of Chapter Tactics (Well, it's 1/6 of Chapter Tactics. Choosing a Chapter for your detachment gives you 6 warlord traits, 6+ stratagems, 6 relics, and 6 psychic powers, choosing a Plague Company gives you 1 Trait 1 Relic 1 Strat.)
There's no army-wide benefit to picking a Plague Company. Loyalist Marines get not just one but two army-wide special purity rules, and they lose 1 of the 2 of them when they take other marines as allies.
So either you do not know what those rules do, or you just threw out that rule...to have what looks like a counter-argument if someone was too lazy to go look up what those rules you referenced actually do. Either way, doesn't look great, and it screams "I am making arguments just to maintain my personal level of Internet Points."
Given that -1 Toughness is a rule that sometimes gives you one die shift of benefit in trying to kill something, it is equivalent to an extra -1AP on a particular category of weapon.
I presume people I'm arguing with know what I'm talking about and I'm not here to score points...so...*shrug*
-1T is way more useful when it persists turn to turn in both melee and ranged for any single weapon used rather than a section of an army picking up -1AP. A White Scars army generally gains no benefit until turn 3. Ultramarines will be on for only turns 2 and 3. DG are on 2 through 5, but generally 3 to 5 unless you employ other stuff to get the reach out there.
And then you have to look at the datasheets - expecting every army to be a one for one tit for tat is a terrible way to assess strengths. A PM is one point more than an Intercessor at +1T, -1D, always on rapid fire on the move, and an un-impeachable move, and auto-wounding bolters on 6s for 10 points. They don't pick up an attack on charges, but in protracted combats they are equals - except that all their melee weapons carry a Lieutenant buff.
Imagine 10 UM Intercessors, TH, and all rules - 220 vs 10 PM, 7 Bolters, 2 BL, 1 flail, and sigil - 250.
During round 1 all units need to be moving toward objectives. 5 out of 9 missions have objectives outside deployment that can't be reached by one move.
Round 2 - Intercessors can move and shoot. They might not have to, but odds are they will. I'm not removing casualties, because we're looking at effectiveness at "parity".
So even at their best PM easily outperform Intercessors more than their 14% additional points might permit and without any inkling of -1T being in effect. Without BL at all they'd still be better R1 and slightly behind R2.
It just doesn't even come close and we still don't have -1T and it assumes Primaris are under the effect of a charge. PM will never waver from that spot.
Those Intercessors at their best shooting regular marines grab 4.4 versus the 4.3 PM with no -1T. So given the point difference the Intercessors are "better", but would still fall behind on melee. Also disregarding getting 18 S4 AP1 D2 auto-hits that reroll 1s to wound for 1CP when a Biologus is nearby. Throw that in with -1T and you get a pretty big mess - 7 Primaris for those who want to keep count.
Even if these wouldn't be precise real-world scenarios things aren't as cut and dry as one might like to make it.
"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.
Well it is the same logic of super heavy aux detachments not getting your army trait even if they are all the same faction.
Same logic of the silent king not benefiting from the Szarekhan trait even while having Szarekhan keyword.
Same logic that incubi should be excluded from getting kabal traits...
It is just bad rules. It blows but it is what we got. The reality is competitive play can not tolerate cross faction play - because it dominates the scene. Even right now being able to take multiple harlequin masques is extremely oppressive. It just needs to go away and die. What people really want is something in between tournament and narrative play but are unwilling to do it for fear of being "casual". Unfortunately - GW makes rules at a snails place. So the only way to really fix it is to house rule. Just do it - forge the damn narrative!
So you think...the Silent King who is one of the harder models to kill in the game...should also pick up a 5+++ versus MW when he has 2 layers of protection with a 4++?
AND you want to give a model that has a S12 AP4 flat 6 damage shot a free reroll to wound?
Intercessors do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 during Tactical Doctrine.
Plague Marines do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 if under the MEQ are T3.
Plague Marines are more expensive than Intercessors. So they do less damage per point. They also have shorter range. They also have less movement. They also have less buffs available, in general.
JNAProductions wrote: Intercessors do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 during Tactical Doctrine.
Plague Marines do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 if under the MEQ are T3.
Plague Marines are more expensive than Intercessors. So they do less damage per point. They also have shorter range. They also have less movement. They also have less buffs available, in general.
yeah but they have different roles, PM aren't only picked for their damage output.
Tyel wrote: Kabalite Warriors are still as perfect as the day the kit came out...
But yes. I feel safe in saying Marines are the most popular faction because they've been in every starter set for the last 28 years (I'm guessing in Rogue Trader too but it predates my knowledge of the game.)
I think in the 90s and much of the 2000s Orks were by far the second most played faction. You saw them in stores, you saw them in White Dwarf etc etc. It turns out however that if you then run the faction into the ground and make it difficult/impossible to buy HQ choices, its popularity wanes. (I can't remember the internet drama, but wasn't there some outrage a couple of years ago that GW claimed they didn't have 4k of Ork models painted?)
You are correct, GW chose not to bring an Ork Army to Adepticon in the same year that "Orktober" became a thing or as we in the Ork community call it "Failtober".
The problem that I tried to articulate to Karol is that nobody gets the double whammy of GOOD rules AND new models to the same extent as Space Marines and especially not at decent prices
Orkz got Morkanaut/Gorkanaut's released...they were literally crappier versions of Imperial Knights and cost $$ the same.
Orkz got 6 new Buggies. All of them were trash on arrival except maybe the Scrapjet and unsurprisingly, its only good, not great.
Orkz got Mekgunz, they cost (and I am not kidding) $50 for 1. Smasha gunz are now 40pts each, and can be fielded in batteries of up to 6. So if you wanted an artillery themed ork army of 18 of these, well you are shelling out $900 for 18 models worth a grand total of....720pts.
And as to why other armies don't become as popular. how much does it cost to get 3 full sized brand new Primaris troops choices? from GW, $180. How about for Orkz? $324 And most ork players usually want twice that much where as I don't know of any Space Marine Players who want 30 intercessors, generally speaking they've been going for minimum sized troops choices for a bit now...basically since 7th edition demi and even than it was minimum sized squads, but a lot of them to get those free vehicles.
Long story short, no other faction gets the releases that SM's get and they usually have a higher barrier to entry than SMs.
I presume people I'm arguing with know what I'm talking about and I'm not here to score points...so...*shrug*
-1T is way more useful when it persists turn to turn in both melee and ranged for any single weapon used rather than a section of an army picking up -1AP. A White Scars army generally gains no benefit until turn 3. Ultramarines will be on for only turns 2 and 3. DG are on 2 through 5, but generally 3 to 5 unless you employ other stuff to get the reach out there.
Correct me if I am wrong, i don't play Deathguard nor do I play against them often, but I believe someone mentioned the -1T aura is at less than 1' range...which means they are by definition in Close combat which means you can't shoot them except for the unit currently in CC with them. So that kind of negates 90%+ of the bonus to ranged combat does it not?
It goes up each turn - 1/3/6/9. You can punch it up by 6" (max 12) with a strat for one unit.
Fast movers can grant it to other units at range so Morty who counts as 9" all the time is popular.
And before someone gets any funny ideas - I'm not defending marines. I'm saying things aren't necessarily 1 for 1 and it takes a bit more time to get the full picture.
Avoiding tournaments would probably be a good idea and playing with friends where you both know what you are going into the game to do. The game really functions best if played to win but played most importantly to have fun. It also cuts down with that mentality on people feeling they need the bleeding edge of units.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Avoiding tournaments would probably be a good idea and playing with friends where you both know what you are going into the game to do. The game really functions best if played to win but played most importantly to have fun. It also cuts down with that mentality on people feeling they need the bleeding edge of units.
Except there's other games you can play that don't require you to be better at game design than the people who made it to re-balance on the fly.
That is true, but yet again we go back to the girth of warhammer being a thing. Mostly in that people will play a worse game that promises people to play with than a better game that no one plays.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Avoiding tournaments would probably be a good idea and playing with friends where you both know what you are going into the game to do. The game really functions best if played to win but played most importantly to have fun. It also cuts down with that mentality on people feeling they need the bleeding edge of units.
The idea that people outside of tournaments, do not use tournament like combos or formations is very much wishful thinking. Because on one side some of the stuff is build in to the rule sub sets of specific armies, and on the other a ton of armies are forced, for many different reasons, in to one build. It is really hard to mess up a harli list, without making it illegal at the same time for example. Same with custodes , even without FW. On the other spectrum we have armies like tau in 9th, where trying to not run a super optimised lists ends in a very bad expiriance really fast. And there aren't many things that make you no longer play, then your opponent beating your 2000pts army with 1700pts of his, and not because he took a handicap.No, he just forgot to bring in reservs.
Karol I take your point of view seriously, but not everyone runs tournament lists every game. I have played this game an awful long time and honestly I have seen strong units but tournament lists ? Not so much.So that may very much be a your area thing to run into that all the time.
More games I've played have had some strong units but not been close to top tier lists.
Like I've not fought one Harli, and know one person who plays Custodes. So while these are horror stories from abroad they don't translate to everyone the same. Believe it or not you can play a game to win but not power crush the other guy in all ways.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Avoiding tournaments would probably be a good idea and playing with friends where you both know what you are going into the game to do. The game really functions best if played to win but played most importantly to have fun. It also cuts down with that mentality on people feeling they need the bleeding edge of units.
I find that win or lose I always have fun. If I don't do well I learn and I revel in those "narrative" moments.
But I also fill up a lot of time with other deep board games (not the deepest and not lately - eff you COVID) like Scythe, Root, Through the Ages, etc.
Even in the dark times of worst editions I've enjoyed playing the game. Though it doesn't hide the flaws but yeah if someone doesn't enjoy it, probably shouldn't play it as it will only breed hate.
AngryAngel80 wrote: That is true, but yet again we go back to the girth of warhammer being a thing. Mostly in that people will play a worse game that promises people to play with than a better game that no one plays.
Don't these people have friends who would be willing to split a starter set with them?
No keradruahk, no Vect, no new Warrior kit - just - a resculpt of a character that absolutely did not need it. I don't play 
.
