As the title says I am certain that most people hate marines right now simply because they are GW’s main cash cow. I’d argue their rules were too good pre-9th codex, but right now people are complaining mainly because marines get disproportionate amount of release and are Omni-present in play groups. How am I certain of this? Codex deathguard.
To put it bluntly this codex is insanely OP, yet next to no one is talking about this fact. On this forum right now the main discussion surrounding the codex comes from GW stripping away deathguard options. While an important conversation that 40k consumers need to have, this is the type of board that is normally extremely first to cry “OP” instead. In fact outside of Mortarion, few have even mentioned how powerful deathguard units are. Our terminators have T5, -1 D, and a 4++, and pay little for these insane defenses as a quick example of this fact.,Yet, I have not seen a thread complaining about them.
Remember when eradicators where previewed? It was non-stop complaining thread after thread. Heck even when outrider bikes got previewed people were aghast that space marines could get a 4w, T5, bike with 6 attacks. And their only 45 points to!? How can any army compete against the terror of outrider bikes?!
Yes marines where extremely OP with the 2.0 release, but that codex is gone. So why are people still complaining about marines then? As the title suggests simply because they are the golden goose that gets showered with releases and is played by everyone. This makes marines an ideal target for...
A- Salty veterans who are tired of seeing marines get updated instead of their own army.
B) People who are forced to play marines in most of their games.
C) Casuals/new players who naturally get beaten by their friends marines because marines are a noob crusher army.
D) People who barely/never play, but enjoy complaining about 40k and therefore need a scapegoat to get triggered by.
The problem with all these viewpoints is all are biased against judging marines power level fairly. It gets especially bad once you start mixing them together. But for those of us who a want a balanced and fun 40k, these kind of viewpoints simply muddy the water and therefore hinder useful changes.
So are marines unfairly judged based on GW’s treatment of them, or am I wrong and they are as OP as dakka suggests?
So are marines unfairly judged based on GW’s treatment of them, or am I wrong and they are as OP as dakka suggests?
Probably both. Marines were "Cans" well before they were considered OP, so there definitely is some general resentment towards them among the playerbase. Their stuff becoming OP is just another contributing factor that is valid on its own right.
When Marines are OP, it does impact the game more heavily since they make up more than 50% of the playerbase. So you are way more likely to end up playing against them.
I mean I don't think anyone is arguing that it is for any other reason than that. People are just sick of Marines for various reasons, and this can lead to resentment.
I used to feel like that. I don't any more, I don't care and don't follow the marine releases or anything any more.
While I personally perceive the new DG codex to be very strong, I'd like to see how the meta settles first before coming to a conclusion.
Regardless of what people might say, not everything can be derived from datasheets alone.
As for the actual question:
I do think Marines are suspect to more flakk from posters because you are confronted with them constantly when doing anything related to 40k. A completely busted faction that never makes news and that is only played by that one guy who shows up to your FLGS every other year would not generate the same responses.
So, there are a ton of things we don't know about DG yet, and yes, even when people were screaming about Eradicators, there were plenty of folks saying "Hey - how 'bout we wait until the book actually comes out". On top of that, if you haven't seen people complaining about DG being "op" you haven't been in many threads lately. Here's one of my favorites:
I'm sorry, anyone complaining about the "fairness" in the current state of Deathguard can F right off. They are seriously broken, and worse than Eradicators. Right now you need titan level shooting to remove Morty, and their Terminators basically require Eradicator level shooting to move off an objective. Now if you are complaining that your models you assembled back in 7th are no longer legal or legit, tough titty. I'm sorry, but rules change, and because you built an army over 10 years ago does not entitle you to special rules on top of an already broken ruleset. Funny thing is, I know exactly what you mean by this, My entire GK line was invalidated by 8th rules. But I don't care, time to roll up and paint a new faction. Please, go play another faction. One less DG player will make everyone happier right now.
And if I had a dime for every time in the last few days, a "Mortarion is OP" complaint popped up in a thread that had noting at all to do with anything related to him or DG, I'd be rich. So, I think we can safely put the "no one is talking about this" thing to rest. Because that is, frankly, nonsense.
As to why it's not as bad as the marines got? Well, if, in 18 months from now, we have been subjected to almost constant Death Guard releases, with more than one being OP, and if, in that same time, we see other armies thrust into a fairly deep disinvestment cycle, well, then you likely WILL see DG start to get it as bad as Marines have. That said, it seems to me like the Marine Hate has died down quite a bit lately.
Popularity does affect how any new rules are received, especially when they're very powerful. I'm not sure it's some sort of anti-marine bias so much as it's just people reflecting on their own experiences. When SM are really powerful or broken you're almost guaranteed to feel the effects because almost every group of gamers will have a SM player among them. If the current broken army is Harlequins you don't get the same exposure and therefore you don't get the same amount of criticism.
Much of the complaining is also about the number of new models SM get and that seems entirely justified. IIRC, DG have received a new character model and a new piece of terrain with their new book. SM, despite already having by far the largest range of any army in the game, got many times more new models with their latest Codex release. That tends to annoy people who play other armies, especially when some of their models haven't been updated in well over a decade.
It's also worth noting that the DG Codex isn't even out yet. Yes, we have previews and some YT battle reports. I've seen a fair amount of criticism of the balance of the new Codex but given the lack of games happening right now it may take a little while before we see a large amount of criticism of the DG Codex.
I'll be optimistic and say that maybe, after making many mistakes in the past by jumping in and claiming units/armies were definitely going to be OP before the release, only to find out that those units/armies weren't that broken at all and may just have been pretty strong (example: Nightbringer), people might possibly have started to look at it with a "wait and see" attitude. As folks mentioned, the codex isn't even out yet, and reading about things in the book and seeing them on the table sometimes don't work out exactly the same.
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.
And again - it's the time thing. It's how long the release cycle lasted for marines. You didn't actually see the kind of complaints at the launch of 2.0 that you saw around Eradicators because the following year + hadn't happened yet. Again, if we now see DG releases on an almost monthly basis through the beginning of 2022, I bet the tone changes and we see the exact same amount of complaints.
Folks have always complained about Space Marines, for being the poster boys of 40k, and getting all the attention. This has always been the case. It's one of the Pillars of the hobby.
Collecting
Building
Painting
Playing
Complaining (About Space Marines)
Its hard to weigh *toughness* without experience. Whereas anyone could look at Eradicators compared with similar units (sorry Fire Dragons) across the game and cry foul at the obvious discrepancy. Just as we can still do so with Multimeltas and say those poor unfortunates condemned forever to carry now faintly comical lascannons or missile launchers instead.
By contrast, while I think Blightlords will be very solid, if you were to compare them to say White Scars Bladeguard I'm not sure you'd come away thinking they are madly out of whack. They are tougher and have better shooting - but the Bladeguard have more and better attacks, aside from the probably obligatory flail guy. The Bladeguard are also quite a bit faster due to advance and charge, and more flexible with fall back and charge. (Other buffs are available.)
In a similar vein, I think Deathshroud are reasonable too - but at 50 points, you are starting to get reasonably pricy for those wounds, even with T5/2+/4++/DR.
Then you can wonder through the DG vehicles and its hard to really get a feel for what is and isn't right. The Blight Hauler for example seems to suffer for being the first model in the game to pay the proper points for the new MM. Bloat Drones are also quite expensive given their relative toothlessness. Synergies with flash outbreak etc have been mooted and may be true, but it doesn't scream OP.
Plagueburst Crawlers do look very good - and I think if you aren't taking Mortarion, its very hard to see why you wouldn't bring 3. (You could do as well, but thats half your army gone which... makes me a little uncomfortable.) At 175 points with the Entropies it *feels* significantly better than the Gladiator Tanks. But then everyone said they were overcosted and unplayable due the MM meta Marines have themselves unleashed.
Even Mortarion I think will have to do some work to justify his spot given he's unlikely to do much on turn 1 if you go first. My concern there is that it's meta warping - there are armies, quite reasonably designed I think, who have no prospect of killing him (given he's functionally like a Knight with 50 wounds) beyond blazing away for 3 turns. In which time the DG player should easily have disposed of you. So if he becomes integral to the tournament game (were tournaments to become a thing again), lists will have to change. Which - as was the case with the Castellan before - I dislike.
In fact my biggest fear of the DG twist to the meta, is that Plasma and other D2 weapons is now conclusively out, and we must all hail our undercosted MM equivelents. Which none of my armies yet have*. Sad face.
*Waiting on my 2 shot flat damage 4 Dark Lances, come on GW, you know it makes sense.
That's only because people paused to rant about Plague Marines for a moment.
But ... according to the OP no one is doing that .... lol/jk
As far as the "it has always been this way, everyone always hates on marines", that's not been my experience. People hated on Ultras in a joking way during the years when "Roboute Guiiliman was every marine's spiritual liege", and people disliked certain things at certain times (like Gladius in 7th for example), but I don't think I've ever seen a general, blanket marine hate until we sat through 12-18 months of marines on marines because marines and marines! I still maintain most of the recent issues stem from starting out with Iron Hands cheese leading into how long their release cycle has been imo. Without all that time, I don't think you get that much "hate".
Also, to a lesser extent, when marines could win with their eyes closed and were an almost legendary "easy button" there were far too many marine players saying "they're fine, you're just a hater"
I think a lot of it is just hyperbole that eventually snowballs online. I've already seen discussions about how Mortation is now impossible to kill (from a Custodes group ironically), but from my experience, this hyperbole builds up and up and dissipates very quickly once the Codex is out. I saw massive rages when the Castellan went up in points, and equally massive rages when the next go-to unit the Poryphion went up a bit. I suspect once it's out and people have had a good chance to digest its contents and play a few games (assuming we can in the short-term), it'll likely die out soon as well.
The Marine Codex does seem OP in some regions, I'm more annoyed about the unnecessity of a lot of it. Did we really need a whole new Melta weapon for the Primaris Speeder? Were we so lacking in bolt weapons we needed another one for the Gladius Reaper? I didn't realise our infantry firepower was lacking enough to warrant Heavy Intercessors. They do seem like unnecessary toys and gimmicks that GW have given their poster-children, and the effort could have gone towards upgrades for other, more-necessary armies.
I've played Marines since 4th Edition and my overall feeling is while I can deal with the OP-feeling the Codex gives, it'll balance out quickly enough when the other Codexes are released, as for now my Marines have been shelved as I've gone off them a bit.
as for now my Marines have been shelved as I've gone off them a bit.
That's interesting. I shelved mine at a certain point in 8th. Recently, I've been toying with getting them back off the shelf as I haven't been enjoying the new Necron codex as much as I thought I would. What would it take for you to pick your marines back up again?
as for now my Marines have been shelved as I've gone off them a bit.
That's interesting. I shelved mine at a certain point in 8th. Recently, I've been toying with getting them back off the shelf as I haven't been enjoying the new Necron codex as much as I thought I would. What would it take for you to pick your marines back up again?
I just think they are a bit of an easy win option at the moment. I think Eradicators do personify the redundancy of a lot of the new Marine stuff. They're T5 3W, Melta weapons with Bolter ranges and the ability to double-tap, and all for 45pts. Same with the Heavy Intercessors, T5 3W for some reason, and they've just taken the Primaris bolter stats and added an extra bit of range and Ap to it. These more recent Primaris releases are just fixing problems that didn't exist, and I feel myself and my opponent would have a more enjoyable experience without them.
My main hope for the recent releases was GW to release a PDF errata updating the other power armour forces to match the Marines
ie; Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Havocs, Khorne Berzerkers: Change this units Wounds characteristics to 2, and so on...
At least this would level out the playing field a little until the full Codexes are released.
Da Boss wrote: When Marines are OP, it does impact the game more heavily since they make up more than 50% of the playerbase. So you are way more likely to end up playing against them.
I mean I don't think anyone is arguing that it is for any other reason than that. People are just sick of Marines for various reasons, and this can lead to resentment.
I used to feel like that. I don't any more, I don't care and don't follow the marine releases or anything any more.
But doesn't that automaticly means that, if marines are good with various way to play, like we have it right now, there are more people in the game who are haivng fun. no idea what % of gamers the soup castellan or inari players make up in the game, But I have my doubts if it is anything even comperable to the number of marine players. And by marines players, I mean people that have a marine army as their main or only army, not people who once had bought a marine army and have not played it in 3 editions.
It is as if people playing non marines were full okey, if they have fun and their armies are good, but were totaly against others having fun at their cost. Which is again really funny to me, considering all that talk how winning is unimportant and how the hobby is the core of everything. But IH having a win rate % highe rthen eldar makes eldar players lose their minds online, with claims of GW killing the game etc
For sure, you make a good point - the marine players might be having a great time being powerful, and in a strictly utilitarian view, that might be good.
I just think they are a bit of an easy win option at the moment. I think Eradicators.
I don't really get the eradictor over focus. Sure they are a good unit, but MM attack bikes are faster and more point efficient. Cheaper and easier to buy too, specialy in those places where Indominatus was delivered in large enough numbers for people to field them.
But lets say spring FAQ kills eradictors. What then? nerf MM attack bikes too, and how will marines deal with DG rules style armies in 9th then. Or is it just nerf the heck out of marines now, so that when other people books come out, they are even more powerful vs marines, because with how how fast GW operates, the rules for the non marines armies would have been tested and optimised to deal with the non nerfed versions of marines.
Da Boss wrote: When Marines are OP, it does impact the game more heavily since they make up more than 50% of the playerbase. So you are way more likely to end up playing against them.
I mean I don't think anyone is arguing that it is for any other reason than that. People are just sick of Marines for various reasons, and this can lead to resentment.
I used to feel like that. I don't any more, I don't care and don't follow the marine releases or anything any more.
But doesn't that automaticly means that, if marines are good with various way to play, like we have it right now, there are more people in the game who are haivng fun. no idea what % of gamers the soup castellan or inari players make up in the game, But I have my doubts if it is anything even comperable to the number of marine players. And by marines players, I mean people that have a marine army as their main or only army, not people who once had bought a marine army and have not played it in 3 editions.
It is as if people playing non marines were full okey, if they have fun and their armies are good, but were totaly against others having fun at their cost. Which is again really funny to me, considering all that talk how winning is unimportant and how the hobby is the core of everything. But IH having a win rate % highe rthen eldar makes eldar players lose their minds online, with claims of GW killing the game etc
Marine players i know were still having fun before they became OP with the codex 2.0. They weren't trash-tier even then.
The thing is that when 50% of the playerbase plays marines, that means at least 50% have to play against them and endure a stronger codex.
Castellan meta and Ynnari (not "inari", please learn how to spell it) meta didnt have 50% playrate, so you had less people stuck playing against unfun armies than you have now.
Plus, the fun from the new SM codex doesnt come from its power, it comes from the fact that every chapter is clearly distinct from one another and you feel it on the tabletop, reigning in the outliers with a nerf (like the eradicators got) would still make the codex fun to play, but now it would also be fun to play against.
the second part of your comment seems to assume you can only have fun if your army is OP, thats just false and a gakky way of approaching the game.
So pretty much everyone here just agreed to the OP that people hate on SM because its a popular army ("makes up for 50% of player base"), and not because it's actually overpowered faction.
Da Boss wrote: For sure, you make a good point - the marine players might be having a great time being powerful, and in a strictly utilitarian view, that might be good.
I had, probably my only person close to a friend, quit w40k because he was bullied for playing IH in 8th. And he started to play IH at the very start of 8th, just like. Had not bought any recasts leviathans, no FW stuff, no chaplain dreads or primaris tanks. Just two halfs of a DI and 2 primaris dreads. No one had problems rolling over him with their armies till 2.0. 2.0 started and suddenly it became socialy unacceptable to play against him. I found this attrocious, specialy coming from people that played really top armies like a week or two before. Even worse I then noticed that the same was happning here and on other forums. All the say no to people playing IH, really opened my eyes to the whole play what you like and we care about hobby, and not win things. Till then I thought I was strange, playing in a place where w40k is played in a wierd, maybe even wrong way, after I realised that the differences are minimal, and mostly monetary.
And in the end it wasn't even a bad thing to know that. I stopped to think about balance. I just want my stuff to be good and fun to play, and even with all the bad and unfun things in 9th, it is still way better then 8th ed. In fact if I started the game now, with the same army and and same money cost, I probably would have saved myself a lot of headache and visits to the doctor.
Da Boss wrote: For sure, you make a good point - the marine players might be having a great time being powerful, and in a strictly utilitarian view, that might be good.
I had, probably my only person close to a friend, quit w40k because he was bullied for playing IH in 8th. And he started to play IH at the very start of 8th, just like. Had not bought any recasts leviathans, no FW stuff, no chaplain dreads or primaris tanks. Just two halfs of a DI and 2 primaris dreads. No one had problems rolling over him with their armies till 2.0. 2.0 started and suddenly it became socialy unacceptable to play against him. I found this attrocious, specialy coming from people that played really top armies like a week or two before. Even worse I then noticed that the same was happning here and on other forums. All the say no to people playing IH, really opened my eyes to the whole play what you like and we care about hobby, and not win things. Till then I thought I was strange, playing in a place where w40k is played in a wierd, maybe even wrong way, after I realised that the differences are minimal, and mostly monetary.
And in the end it wasn't even a bad thing to know that. I stopped to think about balance. I just want my stuff to be good and fun to play, and even with all the bad and unfun things in 9th, it is still way better then 8th ed. In fact if I started the game now, with the same army and and same money cost, I probably would have saved myself a lot of headache and visits to the doctor.
yeah but your gaming group is fething stupid and toxic, for the rest of the world, thats not how people behave.
No, I think the argument is that a big faction that is OP will get more hate than a small faction that is OP.
Agree, but with the caveat that it also has to do with how long it's been happening. I would actually argue that if marines were weak to middling, people would still be super annoyed to watch the marine release train roll on endlessly for well over a year while armies like DE have only lost models since 5th ed ... As a marine player - I don't need 36 different versions of the same data sheet. As a marine player, I don't really feel like it was necessary to to give us d2 weapons on 3w TROOP models just in time for CSM to get 2 wounds ... there's just a lot that gets galling after a while. I mean, if GW says you are stuck with what's in the box for Blightlords, than surely this will also apply to Devastators right? Nope. Not so far. Now multiply that by what feels like an eternity and there's the frustration.
It also doesn't help that when this gets pointed out, there's always a few people who say "Hey! Mechanicus got a release in there, and you Xenos got Necrons so quit complaining"
Naturally, it's possible that COVID just utterly wrecked everything with the release and manufacturing schedule, so it's possible they could only release for one line and they went with the one that would make the most money. Fair enough imo. It doesn't change everything that was already happening well before COVID ...
Da Boss wrote: No, I think the argument is that a big faction that is OP will get more hate than a small faction that is OP.
You don't think SM is gauged to be more OP than it actually is because its a big faction? I think there is an undeniable bias against SM simply because you are exposed to it more often than others.
Ok, so the ravenguard shenanigans pre-nerf was pretty silly, but this was largely due to how the game was structured at the beginning of 8th ed and how ravenguard rules interacted with the rule. Apart from that, there has been some highly competitive lists, but nothing gaming breaking.
We did have a few broken UNITS, but the entire faction? that's a bit of a hard sell if you ask me. You know what WAS game breaking? FW LeviDread. But its a single unit, wombocombo'ed into oblivion. Another one? BA smash captain, but again, single unit, wombocombo'ed into oblivion. The faction as a whole was never "OP" no matter how you spin it.
The only time any SM flavor of the month was TRULY OP was back in 5th ed with GK and wound allocation. You literally couldn't kill them.
We did have a few broken UNITS, but the entire faction? that's a bit of a hard sell if you ask me. You know what WAS game breaking? FW LeviDread. But its a single unit, wombocombo'ed into oblivion. Another one? BA smash captain, but again, single unit, wombocombo'ed into oblivion. The faction as a whole was never "OP" no matter how you spin it.
The issue though, is that it's super easy to say "One or two things may have been OP but not EVERYTHING", and then forget how good a lot of our base stuff actually is. Marines 2.0 was op at every level. It was like bringing an NBA team in to beat up on the local highschool team. I shelved my marines because of this. EVen the weak stuff was just so much better than what almost everyone else had.
I think it's fair to say people are probably over-reacting to the new book and that it is still carrying a bit of left over hate from the Iron Hands debacle of yesteryear, but yeah, 2.0 was insane as a book, and even in the new codex, we still got a lot of things no one else will get.From how CORE works for us (because let's face it, they didn't apply the "fluff" approach in the marines book that they apparently took for crons) to the fact that we still get to ignore an awful lot of the game. Again, think about it from someone else's pov - CSM Player; "Nice! My CSM will get 2 wounds!", Marine Player; "Nice! I'm getting a 3w TROOP unit with a D2 weapon!". It doesn't stack up well does it? There are a ton of examples of this too ...
Marines are just a bit much right now, and have been for a REALLY long time.
I think factions themselves can never be OP per se. It's always certain outlier units that synergize really effing well within the given faction ruleset that typically lends to the label.
So, units within specific factions can be considered "OP", but the faction itself shouldn't be considered OP by the virtue of it having said broken units within.
Tycho wrote: The issue though, is that it's super easy to say "One or two things may have been OP but not EVERYTHING", and then forget how good a lot of our base stuff actually is. Marines 2.0 was op at every level. It was like bringing an NBA team in to beat up on the local highschool team. I shelved my marines because of this. EVen the weak stuff was just so much better than what almost everyone else had.
I think it's fair to say people are probably over-reacting to the new book and that it is still carrying a bit of left over hate from the Iron Hands debacle of yesteryear, but yeah, 2.0 was insane as a book, and even in the new codex, we still got a lot of things no one else will get.From how CORE works for us (because let's face it, they didn't apply the "fluff" approach in the marines book that they apparently took for crons) to the fact that we still get to ignore an awful lot of the game. Again, think about it from someone else's pov - CSM Player; "Nice! My CSM will get 2 wounds!", Marine Player; "Nice! I'm getting a 3w TROOP unit with a D2 weapon!". It doesn't stack up well does it? There are a ton of examples of this too ...
Marines are just a bit much right now, and have been for a REALLY long time.
If anything, I think SM suffers from the "favored child" syndrome because its new rules always gets released at the beginning of each edition, and all other armies suffer from edition lag and not because the faction itself is actually OP.
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Da Boss wrote: OK so you just reject the premise of factions being OP.
Yes. Boogeyman is a single individual entity. There is no boogeymEn.
If anything, I think SM suffers from the "favored child" syndrome because its new rules always gets released at the beginning of each edition, and all other armies suffer from edition lag and not because the faction itself is actually OP.
I mean, in the past it's rarely been an issue. In fact, there was typically less marine hate because it was a universal truth for a long time that the books released first in the schedule would end up being pretty bad in the long run. You actually wanted your book to come a little later, so I don't know if I agree on that. The main reason for the current amount of hate, as I mentioned, is that their release cycle has simply lasted forever.
As far as factions not being able to be OP? I mean fair enough if that's your viewpoint, but I'm not sure I can really go there. You pointed out a few specific units, but it was way more than a few specific units, and in a lot of the "problem" builds, even the basic troops were an issue. I think if you honestly sat down with the marine dex, and compared it to what everyone else has, you'd be very much surprised by how significantly better it is in almost every way.
I still agree that the 9th ed book gets more hate than it deserves because people can't let things go, and in the case of the 9th ed book you might turn out to be right that it really is only a few OP units, but even without those, it is just WAY better at every level than most other books.
Factions can be OP and UP, because people tend to evolve to the more powerful things over time.
I.E. no one had a Castellan before it was released. Within 3 months it became a terror of tables everywhere, because... you could just go buy one.
But FWIW people have not always hated Marines. Dakka used to sing with 30 page long threads of people explaining in microscopic level how Tactical Marines were awful (usually compared to 4 point guard, who were not), and so Marines were a mediocre faction that basically depended on Guilliman. There was initially general positivity at things like Bolter Discipline. Its just that GW then went on a 2 year tear, which will hopefully conclude with the Dark Angels Codex. (Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, New Codex buffing chapter tactics, points and profiles. Supplements with super doctrines and even more comical buffs. Faith and Fury because we forgot about moar buffs and then Marines 2.0 because we needed to add more and buff the stuff we missed out last time...)
But even at their supposed nadir of their power, a Marine list got to the last 8 of the 2019 LVO. Armies like Grey Knights and Necrons - and the incredibly overpromoted, supposedly meta changing Orks - did not.
Factions absolute can be OP, the 8.5 had exactly this problem. That's why it wasn't just Iron Hands crushing tournaments with impunity (although they were the worst offenders) and it's not like the IH lists were "just" because of a FW unit. Or are we going to ignore triple RepEx lists or 30 unkillable Intercessors? 18 RG Centurions hello? Aggressors in any chapter hello? Imperial Fists Whirlwinds and TFC's hello? 3 Invictors hello? I could keep listing stuff here btw, but you only needed to compare a standard Intercessor to any other factions basic troops unit to see the discrepancy in statlines, rules and the associated points costs derived from those. And a lot of those issues still exist, especially when it comes to subfactions because Marine subfactions get so much more extra things than any other in the game that it inherently causes wider issues for games at all skill levels. The Marine and Necron codexes could be overall fairly balanced against one another, but you've now added a supplement to the Marines giving them 50% more stuff for no extra points costs so of course it's going to be somewhat of an issue in your average game. Not just from a purely rules perspective either; but the experience will not feel "balanced" and there will be an element of the other, non-marine side, playing at a disadvantage or not being given access to the same amount of tools.
That's why even if points costs put Marines into the dirt competitively, a lot of people will still dislike them, because the rules distribution is still not equitable and there's a sense that flavourful and interesting stuff for other armies, that reflects their lore on the tabletop, is not a priority or even necessary.
So would it have been okey for marines players to say that 8th ed war broken, because castellans, lists, inaris and tau suits were running them over till the 2.0 books?
there is also the problem of always being first. Even if it ain't true for all books, and I can tell things about that, are hiked up in power, the power level of books in general does go up durning an edition. If marines, being the most played army, are suppose to keep up with an army that comes out 2 years later, they have to be better then the number 2 codex in an edition. I mean just look at the DG book, no one is going to say that DG are not very powerful and not stacked with multiple rules and powerful combos. They are litteraly designed with the idea to both kill marines, be resilient, even to powerfists and thunder hammers and melta/plasma weapons.
Couldn't have said it better myself OP. Ofc you are correct.
Space marines literally get accused of being OP when they are statistically at the bottom of competitive play. That is all the evidence you need. Gladius still gets toted as evidence of marines once being strong...which basically proves marines were super weak...they needed formations that gave you 400 free points of units in order to compete - and even that was short lived...like a 6 month period and then we got 8th eddition. Plus Ynnari/Daemons got WAY better rules at the end there...like...7.5 was just stupid.
Just going to point out to you. This is not the place to have this discussion lol. Dakka really don't like marines. There are just a few of us here who are fair to the marines - I think most have been driven away at this point because it really does get old. I enjoy it here though.
Being 'fair' to marines doesn't involve misrepresenting stats.
SM aren't 'statistically at the bottom' of anything.
They get a lot of releases and currently they're doing very well indeed, with some standout problematic balance issues.
_That_ is a fair picture of marines.
Voss wrote: Being 'fair' to marines doesn't involve misrepresenting stats.
SM aren't 'statistically at the bottom' of anything.
They get a lot of releases and currently they're doing very well indeed, with some standout problematic balance issues.
_That_ is a fair picture of marines.
They aren't now. But have been historically bad in many editions. Which I think it was pretty clear that was the point I was making.
Voss wrote: Being 'fair' to marines doesn't involve misrepresenting stats.
SM aren't 'statistically at the bottom' of anything.
They get a lot of releases and currently they're doing very well indeed, with some standout problematic balance issues.
_That_ is a fair picture of marines.
They aren't now. But have been historically bad in many editions. Which I think it was pretty clear that was the point I was making.
you have to keep in mind that 8th edition is the edition that saw the most influx of new players too, and marines were never bottom of the barrel in 8th (no matter how much you try and claim they were). Fixating on how they were in pre-8th is irrelevant since for a ton of new people, pre-8th 40k didn't exist
Marines have always suffered a bit because if you are going to build a "take all comers" list you really meant taking an anti-marine list with some general anti-tank or whatever. So the meta is often skewed against marines.
But that is down to what, half the factions in the game at different times being 3+ save dudes or ladies in power armour, and the most popular army in the game being Marines. I often used to fight nothing but marines all the way through tournaments, and indeed, my Ork list was designed to take advantage of the prevalence of anti-MEQ and anti-tank in the game by just having like 180+ infantry models swarming across the table and burying you in bodies.
But Marines have always been updated promptly, had all their kits updated promptly, and had a multitude of subfactions to choose from in every edition of the game, as well as having cheap options through starter sets and so on. And that does grate on people who might be waiting years for any updates or using models that are more than 20 years old.
So the poor me routine with space marine players is never going to get much of a hearing, sorry.
But FWIW people have not always hated Marines. Dakka used to sing with 30 page long threads of people explaining in microscopic level how Tactical Marines were awful (usually compared to 4 point guard, who were not), and so Marines were a mediocre faction that basically depended on Guilliman. There was initially general positivity at things like Bolter Discipline. Its just that GW then went on a 2 year tear, which will hopefully conclude with the Dark Angels Codex. (Bolter Discipline, Shock Assault, New Codex buffing chapter tactics, points and profiles. Supplements with super doctrines and even more comical buffs. Faith and Fury because we forgot about moar buffs and then Marines 2.0 because we needed to add more and buff the stuff we missed out last time...)
Yeah - I really don't get the "It's always been this way" posts. It's only "always been this way" since 8th. Prior to that you had isolated events where they were periodically problematic (just as you would have with any faction over the years), but for the majority of the time I can remember, the biggest "issue" with marines was that we all complained that the marines on the table were nowhere near close enough to the marines in the fluff. There were several editions where people felt straight up sorry for marines! lol
They aren't now. But have been historically bad in many editions. Which I think it was pretty clear that was the point I was making.
It definitely seemed like you were making a different point with that ...
Voss wrote: Being 'fair' to marines doesn't involve misrepresenting stats. SM aren't 'statistically at the bottom' of anything.
They get a lot of releases and currently they're doing very well indeed, with some standout problematic balance issues. _That_ is a fair picture of marines.
If 50% of player base who attends major tournaments, locale whose data we like use to base our discussion on, are marines, and SM are OP as a faction, then statistically speaking, more than 5 out of 10 top 10 slots should be reserved for SM army (as it represents 50% of the attendees and each SM army has significantly greater chance at winning because its OP). That isn't the case. Only 2~4 lists make it to top, and they are usually hard skew lists.
I don't believe a faction's capacity to produce a skew list necessarily translates to the faction being OP.
As far as hard skew goes, most other factions can bring even harder skew list than SM can.
To put it bluntly this codex is insanely OP, yet next to no one is talking about this fact.
I've said it multiple times. I'm well aware that tons of the stuff included in that codex is utterly OP, a marine list can be pure cheese without a single Eradicator.
A- Salty veterans who are tired of seeing marines get updated instead of their own army.
B) People who are forced to play marines in most of their games.
C) Casuals/new players who naturally get beaten by their friends marines because marines are a noob crusher army.
Point A is actually the only reason why I like SM: new updates for my main army (orks) means more invalidated models that I own, which is something I hate. In an ideal world new releases would be extremely limited, like 1-2 boxes per faction every 10 years.
Point B and C are an issue because they make people quit the hobby or saturate the casual metas.
I don't hate SM, in fact I even have a SM army. I hate the fact that despite they're the most popular faction, which means they're extremely likely to show up on the tables no matter what, GW keeps pushing them over the top. Apparently a SM player can't cope with his army being the 5th or 6th considering winning rates at the highest competitive levels, according to GW at least. They basically consider SM players either as little Timmies or people who need to learn how to play but are not able to do it.
Blackie wrote: I don't hate SM, in fact I even have a SM army. I hate the fact that despite they're the most popular faction, which means they're extremely likely to show up on the tables no matter what, GW keeps pushing them over the top. Apparently a SM player can't cope with his army being the 5th or 6th considering winning rates at the highest competitive levels, according to GW at least. They basically consider SM players either as little Timmies or people who need to learn how to play but are not able to do it.
on't hate SM, in fact I even have a SM army. I hate the fact that despite they're the most popular faction, which means they're extremely likely to show up on the tables no matter what, GW keeps pushing them over the top. Apparently a SM player can't cope with his army being the 5th or 6th considering winning rates at the highest competitive levels, according to GW at least. They basically consider SM players either as little Timmies or people who need to learn how to play but are not able to do it.
Personally, I don't even hate the fact that they're the most popular. They've been my "main" since the very beginning (I stood with Kantor at the farm ). I just don't like that they seem to be focused on to the apparent exclusion of everything else atm. Do we really need this many -slightly different- captains, this many -slightly different- LTs, this many -slightly different- terminators, etc etc, when Craftworld Eldar are still running 20+ year old sculpts of their main units? No. No we did not.
(*) yes I know I say I am a Marine Player but thats because if not I am automatically a filthy Xenos marine hater
Oh I see - someone wants to have their cake and eat it too! lol/jk
Back in 7th everyone hated Craftworld Eldar. You don't see anything other than lingering remnants of that, because CWE are terrible now and nobody plays them.
SM get lots of hate because they are the perfect storm of super popular and currently overpowered in the casual game. The fact that they are less overpowered at the top of competitive play is irrelevant for 95% of the player base. Playing space marines every other game and having to play a competitive list in your own faction not to get roflstomped, while the SM player can bring anything and do reasonably well because the base power level of their units are simply higher, breeds resentment.
If SM go back to being terrible AND become less popular (lol, lol, I know) you would see the hate for them drop off just like it has for CWE. But because SM are the poster boys of the setting and get hugely disproportionate amounts of the releases, it's pretty rare that they are ever going to be in that position. It's also doubly rare because any SM army can easy sub themselves out for another SM army, so it'd have to be the entire faction that's bad or people just adapt by running Blue Hands or Blue Scars or Blueguard or whatever the most powerful faction is when it's painted blue.
So yes, in a roundabout way, the fact that they are popular creates more resentment. But that's perfectly rational; there's nothing weird about more exposure to a problem generating more resentment than less exposure to a problem.
If everyone and their cousin starts playing DG something similar will probably happen to them.
For a lot of people Marines just happen to be the local boogeyman because of their popularity. They're definitely not top dog at the moment, but there's a number of metas that haven't even seen a Harlequinn army on the table let alone have to deal with one regularly.
LunarSol wrote: For a lot of people Marines just happen to be the local boogeyman because of their popularity. They're definitely not top dog at the moment, but there's a number of metas that haven't even seen a Harlequinn army on the table let alone have to deal with one regularly.
To follow up on that who else has a local meta that doesn't have that 1 dude that always play's their faction be it good or bad.
I can say for certain Harlequines especially meta build lists do not like some factions going by just turnament data Drukari and Admech screw with their game plans badly.
I'm sure in a more casual environment with more oddball lists a few other factions would cause them issues too.
yukishiro1 wrote: Back in 7th everyone hated Craftworld Eldar. You don't see anything other than lingering remnants of that, because CWE are terrible now and nobody plays them.
SM get lots of hate because they are the perfect storm of super popular and currently overpowered in the casual game. The fact that they are less overpowered at the top of competitive play is irrelevant for 95% of the player base. Playing space marines every other game and having to play a competitive list in your own faction not to get roflstomped, while the SM player can bring anything and do reasonably well because the base power level of their units are simply higher, breeds resentment.
If SM go back to being terrible AND become less popular (lol, lol, I know) you would see the hate for them drop off just like it has for CWE. But because SM are the poster boys of the setting and get hugely disproportionate amounts of the releases, it's pretty rare that they are ever going to be in that position. It's also doubly rare because any SM army can easy sub themselves out for another SM army, so it'd have to be the entire faction that's bad or people just adapt by running Blue Hands or Blue Scars or Blueguard or whatever the most powerful faction is when it's painted blue.
So yes, in a roundabout way, the fact that they are popular creates more resentment. But that's perfectly rational; there's nothing weird about more exposure to a problem generating more resentment than less exposure to a problem.
If everyone and their cousin starts playing DG something similar will probably happen to them.
Acting out against a faction because people like them is way more rationale than having power level agreements in casual games... Also eldar even when they are OP - not a lot of people play them. Their models are old and they are a hard army to paint too. They were OP for most of6/7th/ 8th edition and it wasn't just Ynnari ether. Escaped nerf bat CA after CA...Very little complaining.
LunarSol wrote: For a lot of people Marines just happen to be the local boogeyman because of their popularity. They're definitely not top dog at the moment, but there's a number of metas that haven't even seen a Harlequinn army on the table let alone have to deal with one regularly.
To follow up on that who else has a local meta that doesn't have that 1 dude that always play's their faction be it good or bad.
I can say for certain Harlequines especially meta build lists do not like some factions going by just turnament data Drukari and Admech screw with their game plans badly.
I'm sure in a more casual environment with more oddball lists a few other factions would cause them issues too.
Its cute how you defend the most OP army in the game right now by significant margins. Marines though...they just crush casual games. Harlequins cant crush casuals...
Xenomancers wrote: Its cute how you defend the most OP army in the game right now by significant margins. Marines though...they just crush casual games. Harlequins cant crush casuals...
Xenomancers wrote: Its cute how you defend the most OP army in the game right now by significant margins. Marines though...they just crush casual games. Harlequins cant crush casuals...
He didn't defend them. Are you paying attention?
"I can say for certain Harlequines especially meta build lists do not like some factions going by just turnament data Drukari and Admech screw with their game plans badly."
Seems like defending to me.
Quins aren't really that good - they are just good at killing marines but suck vs admech and drukari...Which is also BS. Drukari are irrelevant in comparision to harlequins.
Xenomancers wrote: Acting out against a faction because people like them is way more rationale than having power level agreements in casual games... Also eldar even when they are OP - not a lot of people play them. Their models are old and they are a hard army to paint too. They were OP for most of6/7th/ 8th edition and it wasn't just Ynnari ether. Escaped nerf bat CA after CA...Very little complaining.
were we on the same dakkadakka? Ynnari and eldar flyers were often the source of complaint on here... Heck, people still complain about eldars as if they were still in the scatterbike era.
were we on the same dakkadakka? Ynnari and eldar flyers were often the source of complaint on here... Heck, people still complain about eldars as if they were still in the scatterbike era.
Scatbike, Seercouncil, Wraithknights ... The wailing and anguish was very loud and very real on here ...
I would like 100 + Sisters kits
(especially a LoW and a flyer for crying out loud)
100 + Dark Eldar kits
(especially the HQ's they took from us)
100 + Craftworld kits
100 + Genstealer Cult kits
I mean, I could go on. But I think you get the picture. Don't care that they are the cash cow; don't care about whether or not they are overpowered. Don't care that they're in almost every boxed set or in every video game or that they are the heroes of novels that aren't even about them.
Just want Kit parity. And yeah, if my non marine armies did have 100+ kits, obviously I wouldn't be able to afford them all, but man I'd have some options, wouldn't I?
Tycho wrote: It was like bringing an NBA team in to beat up on the local highschool team. I shelved my marines because of this.
I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.
Tycho wrote: It was like bringing an NBA team in to beat up on the local highschool team. I shelved my marines because of this.
I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.
Wait, what were we talking about again?
In the real world NBA teams and high-school basketball teams aren't playing against each other, and the quality of a high-school team is judged based on their ability to beat other high-school teams, not on their inability to beat an NBA team.
Tycho wrote: It was like bringing an NBA team in to beat up on the local highschool team. I shelved my marines because of this.
I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.
Wait, what were we talking about again?
In the real world NBA teams and high-school basketball teams aren't playing against each other, and the quality of a high-school team is judged based on their ability to beat other high-school teams, not on their inability to beat an NBA team.
That sound you just heard was the joke going over your head.
In the real world NBA teams and high-school basketball teams aren't playing against each other, and the quality of a high-school team is judged based on their ability to beat other high-school teams, not on their inability to beat an NBA team.
Right ... it's almost as if I'm suggesting that Marines were in a ... different league?
I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.
I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.
Wait, what were we talking about again?
Fair enough - I suppose you are pro-marine then?
I do support our troops. Not enlisting back then is one of my few real regrets, although I'm doing my part now.
Xenomancers wrote: Its cute how you defend the most OP army in the game right now by significant margins. Marines though...they just crush casual games. Harlequins cant crush casuals...
He didn't defend them. Are you paying attention?
"I can say for certain Harlequines especially meta build lists do not like some factions going by just turnament data Drukari and Admech screw with their game plans badly."
Seems like defending to me.
Quins aren't really that good - they are just good at killing marines but suck vs admech and drukari...Which is also BS. Drukari are irrelevant in comparision to harlequins.
Your very quick to state you know peoples intent but rage when anyone should even disagrees with you.
You dont know me don't apparently bother to even try and read a post in context
I'm not saying Harlequins don't rofl stomp marines.
The issue is marines being an excessive part of the tournament meta means guess that the anti marine army does way better.
Yet in my local environment where the certainty of playing marines falls through the floor, guess wha. The 1 person bringing quins to the local scene isn't out there crushing with a meta list.
For two reasons
1 Non of the marine player's will entertain a game.
2 The games that are going on between harlequins and not marines arnt oh great I got tabled GG turn 2/3 affairs so far.
So are Harlequins an OP army casually. If your a marine fan boy maybe otherwise there good at 9th missions but opressive unfun games nah.
The reasons are not simply 'cause they're popular,' but quite manifold.
They became OP by virtue of essentially having a 9th edition codex as far back as late 2019, then as 9th approached, spent an agonizing amount of time getting release after release when other factions languish with rules that couldn't sweep kittens off an objective and/or models that are old enough to legally consent.
At present, their top-end is not really OP; optimized tournament lists from other factions can have a good fight with optimized Marine lists, as we see that Marines do not completely dominate tournament tables the way they used to. Their problem is outside tournament play; they have so many good units that more casual Marine lists will, all else being equal, blow most other lists out of the water.
They do get way too much rules attention. A sticking point with me is that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch all got free full Index updates that were not merely to allow them to be usable, but also introduced entirely new rules to factions, like Dark Angels' Inner Circle. These updates must have been at least some effort, and were or are only going to be valid for a few months, yet they couldn't be bothered to update CSM to 2 wounds with a points bump, damage on Fusion weapons at the same time as Melta weapons, or flamer ranges to 12" for nonstandard flame weapons, and those problems may languish for anywhere between months and years in other armies thanks to GW's antiquated release model.
That Marines are popular is a multiplier to other effects, but their popularity is why they got such focus to begin with - so maybe it's not entirely wrong to say people hate marines because they're popular. They're so popular that it felt as though they were cannibalizing the entire game to fuel their power-armored sales might.
This feeling was not helped by the way they were released, and the whole system of slowly 'leaking' models and rules for Indomitus and the C:SM 9th. Spending months watching the rich get richer by inches is exceedingly tedious, but every week there was another unnecessary tank or unit or HQ; I had to unsub from nearly all 40K Youtube channels just to go a week without tasting my own vomit. I guarantee you if it they had scarcely said a damn thing and just dropped Indomitus in our laps I would be substantially less irritated with Marines as I am/was.
It is getting better now. As long as the lens remains off Marines and codexes at similar power levels continue to be released, things will heal, but that's going to take time, and some restraint on GW's part.
So are Harlequins an OP army casually. If your a marine fan boy maybe otherwise there good at 9th missions but opressive unfun games nah.
We just took a trip back in time, and hearing the explanation why marine fan boys, who all have crazy Gulliman lists, just don't know how to play vs Inari, who are not OP, but just a good army that play good in a 8th ed setting.
I wonder if in 7th and prior editions eldar players well spinning stories like that too, that their armies were not OP, specialy not in casual settings and that it was actualy the marines that were the bad army destroying the game.
In the real world NBA teams and high-school basketball teams aren't playing against each other, and the quality of a high-school team is judged based on their ability to beat other high-school teams, not on their inability to beat an NBA team.
Which was maybe true in sports till MKOL decided that it is okey for NBA professional players to play in the olympics. So often NBA dreams team very much play vs teams made out of people in collage age.
If tournaments and FLGSs (Covid permitting) were a third Harlequins - or a third Slaanesh Daemons or whatever, you bet the complaints would flow thick and fast.
But they are not. They are by contrast regularly a third or more marines.
If you didn't see endless whinging about Eldar for the last decade, you just haven't been paying attention. People hated Wave Serpents in 6th, the whole faction got exactly the same treatment Marines are getting now in 7th, and complaining about Ynnari and flyers was continuous through 8th.
Personally, I don't give a rat's arse that Marines are overpowered. It's bad design, certainly, but it's not why I personally hate them.
I hate Marines because my army has been languishing for a literal decade with something like 1/3 of its units and options being deleted outright. So now that GW have the capacity to produce models at an incredible pace, what do we see? Two sodding years of Marine releases. Because clearly the army with the most kits and most up-to-date kits in the entire game needed vastly more kits injected into it.
But that was in 8th, right? They were just getting all the Marine stuff out of the way. Clearly 9th will be different.
Which was maybe true in sports till MKOL decided that it is okey for NBA professional players to play in the olympics. So often NBA dreams team very much play vs teams made out of people in collage age.
Not equivalent at all. Especially, consider that there are college-aged NBA players, as well.
Tyel wrote: By contrast, while I think Blightlords will be very solid, if you were to compare them to say White Scars Bladeguard I'm not sure you'd come away thinking they are madly out of whack. They are tougher and have better shooting - but the Bladeguard have more and better attacks, aside from the probably obligatory flail guy. The Bladeguard are also quite a bit faster due to advance and charge, and more flexible with fall back and charge. (Other buffs are available.)
A flail Blight Lord does 2.7 to a BG. A WS BG does 1.1 to a BL and is probable the only way a BG could outperform a basic BL. This doesn't even consider contagions. They're ridiculously solid and with the addition of heavies, deepstrike, etc means they'll outclass BG. Fortunately 10 of the buggers will be 1/4 of an army, but I'd bet 3x5 on the regular.
I do like that the antithesis of Death Guard - Thousand Sons - are probably the ones capable of more easily tackling that unit...well, maybe not at the moment.
They used to get hate just for being the poster boys. They got lots of release windows because of the different chapters but there was usually some time between hearing of them. They also weren't always OP in any way.
The hate has grown these days because they have a huge number of current releases over 8th and into 9th while some armies saw almost nothing, or nothing at all new released for them.That leads some people to dislike them.
For the most part they don't lose things, though there are exceptions. Most other armies get done over much worse losing whole sections for units and characters without any replacement in sight or imagined. ( Look at some xeno books for this )
As well, in 8th and even now they carry some really OP builds that sometimes get toned down ( Iron hands ) or just came out and eventually get touched on a little eventually ( eradicators )
It used to be one thing, or another but lately it's been a whole bunch of things leading to the hate. It's easy to just say they are being unfairly trashed on but GW do seem to go out of their way to drown you in loyalist marines wether you love it or not.
Tyel wrote: By contrast, while I think Blightlords will be very solid, if you were to compare them to say White Scars Bladeguard I'm not sure you'd come away thinking they are madly out of whack. They are tougher and have better shooting - but the Bladeguard have more and better attacks, aside from the probably obligatory flail guy. The Bladeguard are also quite a bit faster due to advance and charge, and more flexible with fall back and charge. (Other buffs are available.)
A flail Blight Lord does 2.7 to a BG. A WS BG does 1.1 to a BL and is probable the only way a BG could outperform a basic BL. This doesn't even consider contagions. They're ridiculously solid and with the addition of heavies, deepstrike, etc means they'll outclass BG. Fortunately 10 of the buggers will be 1/4 of an army, but I'd bet 3x5 on the regular.
I do like that the antithesis of Death Guard - Thousand Sons - are probably the ones capable of more easily tackling that unit...well, maybe not at the moment.
Let’s not foget that Bladeguard are actually one of marines best unit, unlike something like eradicators. I also believe deathshroud are better than blightlords.
Others have already made my points for me, but because I like reading my own text...
I don't hate marines. I want them to get support. I want their players to enjoy playing them. BUT the sheer volume of releases marines get (especially lately) is very annoying.
Look at how many primaris lieutenants there are. Remember that primaris have only been a thing for a few years. Now look at how many phoenix lord models are still finecast versions of their 2nd edition sculpts. Look at how many marine kits have come out in the last two years, and then look at how many aspect warriors are finecast versions of sculpts that are over a decade old. Look at how many marine characters have come out in the last two years, and then realize that drukhari HQs haven't been allowed to take a bike or jump pack (equivalent) option since 5th edition.
And now marines are quite powerful, and those of us who primarily play non-marine armies are eager to get new rules that put us on an even playing field, but the book releases are just marine subfaction after marine subfaction. Even the Deathguard book is mildly annoying; even the chaos releases are just another style of astartes.
And I get that marine players are eager for their specific chapter to gets its second wound or its unique rules or whatever, but the relative overlap between the various chapters can feel kind of superfluous to the rest of us. I neither want nor need a unique codex for every craftworld, kabal, or sept I play, but apparently marines do need that for some reason. So this ongoing barrage of marine books feels like a fresh annoyance caused by GW's past overexposure of marine books.
I wish marine players well. I want marine armies to feel awesome to play. I just don't want every other army to be left languishing because of the raw amount of support marines get.
Which was maybe true in sports till MKOL decided that it is okey for NBA professional players to play in the olympics. So often NBA dreams team very much play vs teams made out of people in collage age.
Not true at all. All basketball olympic teams are selections of professional players, not kids who play in colleges. Actually there are lots of NBA players in the olympic games who aren't american and therefore play for different teams than the USA.
SM have been quite strong since 8th launched. Yes, I know that their index army wasn't hellishly OP. Nor were they the 100% curb-stomp-everyone-with-casual-lists army with their first codex. But their Index army was still one of the strongest (girly-man tank blob), and with their codex they were still quite competitive (after a few balance tweaks) and over-all stronger than many other armies in the casual scene.
And then we got 2.0, followed by 9th 1.0, and everyone knows how that went.
But beyond that? Marines just get so many fething releases. And I get it, they're the poster-boy. They're going to get more stuff and that's fine, I don't think anyone is asking for an army like Genestealer Cults to get as many yearly releases as SM, or for SM to go several years without any releases so we can pump all of our attention into the Ork line.
However there is absolutely a middle ground. Take, for example, that Tyranids didn't get a single release across all of 8th. They got a codex, a Pyschic Awakening feature, and (I think) a terrain piece. No characters, no units, no nothing. Mean while Space Marines have gotten a new unit basically every month. Their new codex was released back in September 2020, and they're still getting a new kit every month into 2021.
This results in fatigue as SM releases, at least in my case. It makes people wonder: Why should they bother playing their xenos armies, factions with near zero release support and incredibly weak rolls, just so shmuck SM players can show up with whatever hodge-podge of units they want and beat the snot out of even competitively designed other factions? Why give a crap about what their army does well when SM can do that faction's "thing" just as well, if not better, while still having every other faction's unique strength at the same time?
Marines have a stranglehold on the release schedule. They wipe the floor with most other factions without breaking a sweat. They're also masters of every aspect of the game, with units that fulfill the same purpose as high-cost specialists in other armies - and often do so cheaper with none of the weaknesses. So, in general, it really feels like there is no point to playing 40k unless you're playing marines.
1. stop releasing new stuff for Marines all the time.
2. give all other major armies the same number of options than Marines have. To those that doesn't make too much sense doing that (like Custodes), make their options really good to withstand firepower or to easily replace losses.
Sadly, neither will happen, so Marines will continue getting hated on.
VladimirHerzog wrote: People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.
so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.
VladimirHerzog wrote: People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.
so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.
No, because they are popular, therefore constantly supported and atm easy to handle on top of beeing on the higher end of performance, especially in a casual / semi casual environment, they are more oppressive and get thrown more hate at, due to everyone beeing familiar with them, then let's say harlequins or daemons which might be technically even more annoying but practically so rarely seen that the average player has a rather murky understanding of them.
VladimirHerzog wrote: People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.
so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.
Yes.
Obviously.
I don't understand why this is a point of hypocrisy. Obviously the amount you personally will care about a particular broken list or faction is directly proportional to the amount you have to play against it.
In my play group of in normal times 50+ people, we have
-1 person who plays Craftworld Eldar
-2 people who play Tau
-Nobody who plays Knights
-1 person who plays Daemons of any kind
-Nobody who plays harlequins
-Nobody who plays Tyranids
-over 30 players who play some kind of space marines.
Through the entire Castellan/imperial soup meta, not a single person owned a Castellan. Through the entire Ynnari meta, not a single person played Ynnari. Through the Flyrant meta, nobody played tyranids. When the space marine meta hit, over half the club was playing marines and suddenly had crushingly competitive lists.
My army is pretty much models that are about as old as I am and there are little to no options that aren't reaching around almost 20+ years if not already able to drink.
BrianDavion wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.
so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.
I think popularity exacerbates the issue certainly. It's like a force multiplier on top of an already bloated pile of annoyances. That said, you have to be kind of daft to think it's JUST how popular they are.
I love how multiple people in the thread have listed multiple reasons for why people dislike them and it still comes down to "Hurr Durr - popular" ...
This type of answer is another one of the reasons people get annoyed. Too many marine players who literally can't see how much better their stuff is in almost every single way, from nearly every single angle and just think anyone who is annoyed is a "hater". I'm a marine player, and I am saying "yeah - it's just a bit much atm". Why is that so hard? lol
My army is pretty much models that are about as old as I am and there are little to no options that aren't reaching around almost 20+ years if not already able to drink.
And I bet you just jump for joy as you watch the marines get their 399th Primaris Lt, or their 9th Terminator variant, or half a dozen new tanks that are all -slightly different- to each other or things they already had ...
I also bet this release schedule would annoy you even if marines were unpopular.
And watch as options that had been there for years are taken away from me and in turn nothing given back besides character models that are limited time only so Ill never be able to get.
were we on the same dakkadakka? Ynnari and eldar flyers were often the source of complaint on here... Heck, people still complain about eldars as if they were still in the scatterbike era.
Scatbike, Seercouncil, Wraithknights ... The wailing and anguish was very loud and very real on here ...
Yeah 7th eddition probably was the most eldar complaining I've ever seen. Then again. Practically none in 8th even though they dominated competitive for about half the edition.
were we on the same dakkadakka? Ynnari and eldar flyers were often the source of complaint on here... Heck, people still complain about eldars as if they were still in the scatterbike era.
Scatbike, Seercouncil, Wraithknights ... The wailing and anguish was very loud and very real on here ...
Yeah 7th eddition probably was the most eldar complaining I've ever seen. Then again. Practically none in 8th even though they dominated competitive for about half the edition.
Ok, so you're doing the exact thing you're constantly being accused of : distorting facts to fit whatever your argument is. People complained plenty about Ynnari and Flyers on here. The difference between them and Marines is that these armies got nerfed quickly and weren't 50% of the metagame so people played against them less.
So, again, I've listed a handful of reasons outside of "popularity", and even outside of how strong they are, and we have an Eldar player agreeing that at least some of those reasons are why she is annoyed (she's got 20+ year old sculpts in the face of Marines having so many LT variants that are largely unecessary) and for so many people, the response is still "YEAH! Because they're popular!" or "Well I didn't hear all this when Eldar were strong!"
I mean, I know my posts can be long, but is any of this getting through? lol
So, again, I've listed a handful of reasons outside of "popularity", and even outside of how strong they are, and we have an Eldar player agreeing that at least some of those reasons are why she is annoyed (she's got 20+ year old sculpts in the face of Marines having so many LT variants that are largely unecessary) and for so many people, the response is still "YEAH! Because they're popular!" or "Well I didn't hear all this when Eldar were strong!"
I mean, I know my posts can be long, but is any of this getting through? lol
Guard actually but Eldar are in a similar position as they are and not until late 2019, all of the SoB had a range exceeding the drinking age in the US.
Guard actually by Eldar are in a similar position as they are and not until late 2019, all of the SoB had a range exceeding the drinking age in the US.
Ha! I'm sorry. Whenever I hear 20+ year sculpts my mind just automatically goes to Eldar!
CEO Kasen wrote: The reasons are not simply 'cause they're popular,' but quite manifold.
They became OP by virtue of essentially having a 9th edition codex as far back as late 2019, then as 9th approached, spent an agonizing amount of time getting release after release when other factions languish with rules that couldn't sweep kittens off an objective and/or models that are old enough to legally consent.
At present, their top-end is not really OP; optimized tournament lists from other factions can have a good fight with optimized Marine lists, as we see that Marines do not completely dominate tournament tables the way they used to. Their problem is outside tournament play; they have so many good units that more casual Marine lists will, all else being equal, blow most other lists out of the water.
They do get way too much rules attention. A sticking point with me is that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch all got free full Index updates that were not merely to allow them to be usable, but also introduced entirely new rules to factions, like Dark Angels' Inner Circle. These updates must have been at least some effort, and were or are only going to be valid for a few months, yet they couldn't be bothered to update CSM to 2 wounds with a points bump, damage on Fusion weapons at the same time as Melta weapons, or flamer ranges to 12" for nonstandard flame weapons, and those problems may languish for anywhere between months and years in other armies thanks to GW's antiquated release model.
That Marines are popular is a multiplier to other effects, but their popularity is why they got such focus to begin with - so maybe it's not entirely wrong to say people hate marines because they're popular. They're so popular that it felt as though they were cannibalizing the entire game to fuel their power-armored sales might.
This feeling was not helped by the way they were released, and the whole system of slowly 'leaking' models and rules for Indomitus and the C:SM 9th. Spending months watching the rich get richer by inches is exceedingly tedious, but every week there was another unnecessary tank or unit or HQ; I had to unsub from nearly all 40K Youtube channels just to go a week without tasting my own vomit. I guarantee you if it they had scarcely said a damn thing and just dropped Indomitus in our laps I would be substantially less irritated with Marines as I am/was.
It is getting better now. As long as the lens remains off Marines and codexes at similar power levels continue to be released, things will heal, but that's going to take time, and some restraint on GW's part.
This 100%. The release schedule makes it feel like Marines are cannibalising other factions at this point. Even the Necrons, that got released alongside the Marines feel like they're already forgotten for more Space Marine goodness. Death Guard will be no different.
VladimirHerzog wrote: People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.
so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.
No, because they are popular, therefore constantly supported and atm easy to handle on top of beeing on the higher end of performance, especially in a casual / semi casual environment, they are more oppressive and get thrown more hate at, due to everyone beeing familiar with them, then let's say harlequins or daemons which might be technically even more annoying but practically so rarely seen that the average player has a rather murky understanding of them.
The New Years Brawl GT had 8 Necrons and 8 Marines out of 30. Top 5 was Harlies, Necrons, Necrons, Custodes, Orks.
Having actually taken the dive into Necrons myself I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their book is way more fun than marines. At first glance almost none of the units are duds ( and if they are it is debatable ) and everything seems to have a place. It literally want to buy 5 boxes of stuff, but I can't because everything is sold out. And DG looks even more interesting than Necrons just on design alone.
Marines haven't been king for a bit now, but posts disproportionately attack them or attack people who they think are defending marines. It wasn't that long ago that people complained about how Xenos were the "NPC" and yet the above top 5 is almost nothing but Xenos.
This 100%. The release schedule makes it feel like Marines are cannibalising other factions at this point. Even the Necrons, that got released alongside the Marines feel like they're already forgotten for more Space Marine goodness. Death Guard will be no different.
What does DGneed? A couple models to cover HQs.
What Necron kits need a redo? C'Tan models, Tesseract, and Obelisk. All of these are huge kits and pushing out that many high price kits would be a terrible idea.
Or a great idea? GW has shown again and again that suckers buy whatever they put out. If they can even put out a similar scaled kit with a 30-50% price increase and suckers eat it up.
Having actually taken the dive into Necrons myself I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their book is way more fun than marines. At first glance almost none of the units are duds ( and if they are it is debatable ) and everything seems to have a place. It literally want to buy 5 boxes of stuff, but I can't because everything is sold out. And DG looks even more interesting than Necrons just on design alone.
Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.
What does DG need? A couple models to cover HQs.
And some more heavy support options, and access to Greater Possessed and a few other things form CSM proper that it makes no sense for them to not have. That said, admittedly, they are in good shape and most of the things I list don't require actual new models. Just a ported entry. They are generally in pretty good shape.
That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.
Lance845 wrote: Or a great idea? GW has shown again and again that suckers buy whatever they put out. If they can even put out a similar scaled kit with a 30-50% price increase and suckers eat it up.
GW just doesn't.
Setting aside personal preferences on looks you can't sit there and call Primaris a simply scaled up kit. If that is all people valued we'd all still be using our janky metals.
Marines haven't been king for a bit now, but posts disproportionately attack them or attack people who they think are defending marines. It wasn't that long ago that people complained about how Xenos were the "NPC" and yet the above top 5 is almost nothing but Xenos.
its almost as if were in a pandemic that started when marines were at a high point and people havnt been able to play enough games to see for themselves what the powerlevels currently are and are mostly going from batreps or online discussion.
its almost as if were in a pandemic that started when marines were at a high point and people havnt been able to play enough games to see for themselves what the powerlevels currently are and are mostly going from batreps or online discussion.
It's also like power level is only a fraction of the reason for the annoyance ...
its almost as if were in a pandemic that started when marines were at a high point and people havnt been able to play enough games to see for themselves what the powerlevels currently are and are mostly going from batreps or online discussion.
It's also like power level is only a fraction of the reason for the annoyance ...
also this. Right now the main metric i have to judge marines is the amount of support theyve gotten.
9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
Lance845 wrote: Or a great idea? GW has shown again and again that suckers buy whatever they put out. If they can even put out a similar scaled kit with a 30-50% price increase and suckers eat it up.
GW just doesn't.
Setting aside personal preferences on looks you can't sit there and call Primaris a simply scaled up kit. If that is all people valued we'd all still be using our janky metals.
I wasn't actually talking about Primaris. Look at Shadowsun, Ghaz, the new Cryptek/s. GW can release anything, increase the price, and turn a profit. There is an endless stream of rubes that are willing to pay.
Dominating the release schedule, disproportionate rules attention, a long time spent at peak power level, increasingly setting-warping centricity to the writing, and being popular enough that these are all constantly in your face if you play the game at all, sure.
Being popular amplifies all the negative aspects because, well, it makes them more obvious. But they're not disliked simply because they're popular.
also this. Right now the main metric i have to judge marines is the amount of support theyve gotten.
9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
Yeah, like I said before, I think the current 'dex gets more hate than it deserves because there is some needless carry over from the hate of 2.0. The pandemic preventing us from seeing where the new book really sits hasn't helped, but I still think the biggest thing at this point is just the release schedule, and that was happening way before covid so you can't even blame the pandemic ...
I still think the new Marine book is probably better than most of the codexes will be (I think it's better over-all than the Necron dex for sure), but I don't think it's fair to level the same amount of OP complaints at it that 2.0 was getting.
I really believe Marines could be the absolute least played faction, and if they were getting this kind of support, people would still be annoyed, so while the popularity makes it worse, to claim it's the only reason is just silly imo.
Tycho wrote: Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.
They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.
That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.
Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?
I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.
Tycho wrote: Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.
They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.
That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.
Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?
I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.
If we went by your logic, that we release proportional to their proportion of the total of all major factions, Around 63% of all releases for 40k should have no Space Marines in them. This is significantly lower in reality, and also is very favourable for the marine side as well.
Space Marines are 40K to me. They are what got me interested in Rogue Trader instead of Battletech and other scifi brands.
Rules-wise, I dont have a prob either. I nerf my marine army on purpose. I'd never spam the most OP units or the most abusive combos, regardless of the army I might play.
Tycho wrote: Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.
They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.
That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.
Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?
I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.
Space marines are one faction out of 25 factions total.
Iron hands
Imperial fist
White scar
Ravenguard
Salamanders
Space wolves
Ultramarines
black templars
Blood angels
Dark angels
Deathwatch
are all a single codex. If you decide to count each of them as a separate faction then you need to add : all the forgeworlds, all the holy orders, all the obsessions, all the craftworlds, etc.
I don't think SM receive a disproportionate amount of hate. They have the lion's share of models and updates, it only makes sense they would get the lion's share of hate over said content.
Tycho wrote: Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.
They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.
That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.
Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?
I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.
Space marines are one faction out of 25 factions total.
Iron hands
Imperial fist
White scar
Ravenguard
Salamanders
Space wolves
Ultramarines
black templars
Blood angels
Dark angels
Deathwatch
are all a single codex. If you decide to count each of them as a separate faction then you need to add : all the forgeworlds, all the holy orders, all the obsessions, all the craftworlds, etc.
They aren't though; codex supplements are a thing. Forge worlds, holy orders, etc don't have those. Not to mention that one SM codex is the size of two xeno ones put together.
They shouldn't be though. Have the Necrons and Death Guard books tried to close the gap on the gulf between an Astartes subfaction and a Dynasty Plague Company etc(Super Doctrine, Relics, Warlord Traits, Strats, Spell Lore etc)
1) Marines were disproportionately OP following their second codex in 8th ed. Since half the playerbase plays SM or has a SM army ready to go, this heavily shifs the meta.
They were so disproportionately OP (win rates in the 70%-80% range for Iron Hands at one point) that it simply felt bad. I stopped going to tournaments back then, until covid arrived.
A strong army usually sits around 55% win rate and you feel that (Ynnari were around that, IG Castellan slightly higher). A 70% win rate army that's also very popular it creates problems for the game.
A final note on this point: when there's a strong faction that's also a niche faction (Harlequins, GSC, ...), the issue of it being OP is way less damaging to the game simply because you're way less likely to face them every game. Marines therefore need to be kept in line (max 55% win rate as a rule of thumb) with extra attention, as they usually have been in the past.
2) SM received a complete range update, piecemeal over multiple years. Which is a perfectly fine thing to do and for GW it makes financial sense. The primaris models are nice and well made, for the most part and ignoring a few issues (like limited modelling freedom and lack of dedicated chapter details).
Other factions may receive comparable or even more significant updates (in relative terms to the existing range), but they do so over a much shorter time period.
For example, Necrons received a massive update but only over a few months, so you don't feel like there's a constant stream of new stuff coming out just for them.
The issue here is that the community of non-SM players feel both of these problems at the same time: rules neglect (because of GW's stubborness to balance a game with books in 2020+) and models neglect (ask any Eldar/Tyr/Guard/... player).
NinthMusketeer wrote: They aren't though; codex supplements are a thing. Forge worlds, holy orders, etc don't have those. Not to mention that one SM codex is the size of two xeno ones put together.
every chapter i listed is playable with only the basic SM codex (except Deathwatch i think). Supplements aren't codexes, they're bonuses (DLC) that some subfactions get.
Just because the Codex is bloated doesn't mean its justified to keep feeding them new units/rules, on the contrary.
Space marines are one faction out of 25 factions total.
Iron hands
Imperial fist
White scar
Ravenguard
Salamanders
Space wolves
Ultramarines
black templars
Blood angels
Dark angels
Deathwatch
are all a single codex. If you decide to count each of them as a separate faction then you need to add : all the forgeworlds, all the holy orders, all the obsessions, all the craftworlds, etc.
I don't agree or disagree, really. It comes down how you want to look at it. For me White Scars play differently than Ultramarines than Blood Angels than BT than DA etc - even if they are all power armor.
And it becomes more about how many players you can service on a single release. Few marines care about Khan getting a new model, but most of them would be likely to consider Heavy Intercessors.
Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?
I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.
Simply put - yes. Think about how this use to work - In any given release cycle you would see a handful of units for a few different armies, and on rare occasion you might see a large release due to a total revamp (like DE in 5th).
And sure, Marines have always gotten a little more love since they really are the cash cow. I don't think most would begrudge them that. It makes sense. But compare what I mentioned above, to what we currently have. Like I said before - did we need more Lt's? Do Marines really need all the different Captains? Does it make sense to release even more marine vehicles? In a vacuum maybe? But when this is being done in the face of not touching some models for 20+ years, when armies like DE have only lost models since 5th, when all the players of all the other factions are watching the marine train roll on almost endlessly - yeah it's a bit much imo.
And saying "YEAH BUT NECRONS!" doesn't really change it either. Because again, look at the schedule - it was something like "Marines, Marines, Marines, Necrons and Marines, Necrons and Marines, Marines, Marines". You're telling me it wouldn't have been better for at least one or two of those "marines" to have been an Eldar release, or a DE or IG release?
As far as "moving the goal posts" for CSM/Sisters releases - I haven't really seen that. What I have seen is similar to the above example. GW releases a new model or two for a non-marine faction amidst a slew of new marine releases and people say "see? non-marines got something ..." lol
No one (or at least not me anyway) expects it to be an even 50-50 release schedule, and lately, I'm sure COVID has REALLY buggered the schedule, but it also shouldn't be nearly so blatantly lopsided as its been imo.
NinthMusketeer wrote: They aren't though; codex supplements are a thing. Forge worlds, holy orders, etc don't have those. Not to mention that one SM codex is the size of two xeno ones put together.
every chapter i listed is playable with only the basic SM codex (except Deathwatch i think). Supplements aren't codexes, they're bonuses (DLC) that some subfactions get.
Just because the Codex is bloated doesn't mean its justified to keep feeding them new units/rules, on the contrary.
Codex supplements exist; it does not make sense to ignore them when evaluating how much content different armies have.
I think if this is really bewildering to you, maybe you should look at AOS and the fact that comparatively much, much, MUCH fewer people hate on Stormcast than they hate on Marines in 40k.
And then you look at the releases, and you see that AOS is actually a proper factional game: it has many many books, and what it DOESNT have is 35% of the army books in Stormcast. And occasionally, GW just takes a few months to shut the feth up about stormcast and release brand new, incredible looking ranges for other factions.
We've had basically non-stop "Wooooooooooah look at this incredible new model range for AOS! And we don't want to leave out 40k - A NEW LAND SPEEDER! Wooooooooooooooooooooooooo! everybody get hyped!" for the last 6 months or so.
It's at the point where I've learned 6 new computer programs so that I can cad, pose and print my own Aspect Warrior sculpts, printed and painted an entire 15mm russian WW2 army, painted an entire titanicus legio, finished up my AOS army, and every time I look back over at 40k it's just
"welp, let's see, anything new to be interested in for any of my freaking NINE 40k armies? Any previews even?
Just the one fairly uninspired Lelith Hesperax Resculpt?
Oh, it's only available in a box set that's more expensive than my entire 3d printing setup was?
In 9 months?
Ok, cool, guess I'll just go back to what I've been doing."
Imo it’s a mistake to count white scars as a different faction to iron hands simply based on the use of supplements. You can say they play differently but so do catachans and tallarn. The only difference is that GW has spent far more time giving each chapter an over abundance of rules but doesn’t care to do the same for other factions. GW could feasibly make every sub faction as varied as marines without too much effort, but I wouldn’t then go around calling Dalyth a separate faction from Viorla no matter how different their sub faction rules are.
Fundamentally, when GW releases marines all chapters can use the new kit, that tells me marines are one faction. Grey knights can’t and therefore they are a different faction.
the_scotsman wrote: I think if this is really bewildering to you, maybe you should look at AOS and the fact that comparatively much, much, MUCH fewer people hate on Stormcast than they hate on Marines in 40k.
And then you look at the releases, and you see that AOS is actually a proper factional game: it has many many books, and what it DOESNT have is 35% of the army books in Stormcast. And occasionally, GW just takes a few months to shut the feth up about stormcast and release brand new, incredible looking ranges for other factions.
Except that the first couple years of AoS was Stormcast and then another chamber with its very own book... and then another chamber with its very own book... and then another chamber with its very own book. They consolidated it at some point. The Stormcast fatigue was there.
It wasn't until GW dropped the ridiculously baller new concepts for some of the newer armies that people changed their tack.
At some point the marine releases will slow. I won't discount GW's shrewd maneuver to push out new kits with additional options for existing kits at some point, but I don't see enough for a major release now. I'm sure they'll grace a boxed set with a new unit or something.
It wasn't until GW dropped the ridiculously baller new concepts for some of the newer armies that people changed their tack.
Right. So if GW does exactly what I've been suggesting and drops a series of cool non-Loyalist Space Marine releases,(without also releasing marines along side them) the hate will likely die significantly.
At some point the marine releases will slow. I won't discount GW's shrewd maneuver to push out new kits with additional options for existing kits at some point, but I don't see enough for a major release now. I'm sure they'll grace a boxed set with a new unit or something.
Hopefully you're right and the train slows or even stops for a bit, but I am willing to bet that if you had gone to all the players before this most recent wave had started and asked if they felt marines needed a major, year + long release, most would have said "I don't think they need a major release right now." so ... eh? lol
No, they are not. It's only a natural gut reaction by people who are force-fed by GW to gulp down ten pizzas at once instead of enjoying occasionally a single pizza for a meal.
Dandelion wrote: Imo it’s a mistake to count white scars as a different faction to iron hands simply based on the use of supplements. You can say they play differently but so do catachans and tallarn.
I don't totally agree on the degree of difference there. AM lists often share very similar elements. But you'll almost never find Iron Hands sporting Bikes and Lightning Claw VV and no Eradicators. The way I react to when I play IH differs from WS. When I play guard it doesn't matter to me if they're Catachan, Cadian, or Mordian. Tallarn only throws a wrench if they drag in a super heavy, but no really one does that.
On the flip side against Necrons - you could face a silver tide, obsec scarab swarms, monster mash, and a ton of other variants. Here I would start to react differently like when I face marines, but in terms of models they don't need a ton and as mentioned elsewhere those needed kits are the expensive ones that they won't cram together all at once.
Hopefully you're right and the train slows or even stops for a bit, but I am willing to bet that if you had gone to all the players before this most recent wave had started and asked if they felt marines needed a major, year + long release, most would have said "I don't think they need a major release right now." so ... eh? lol
Well, yea, but I don't think anyone who isn't a marine player would feel strongly about marines getting releases.
I don't totally agree on the degree of difference there. AM lists often share very similar elements. But you'll almost never find Iron Hands sporting Bikes and Lightning Claw VV and no Eradicators. The way I react to when I play IH differs from WS. When I play guard it doesn't matter to me if they're Catachan, Cadian, or Mordian. Tallarn only throws a wrench if they drag in a super heavy, but no really one does that.
Take an army other than AM, then. You'll almost never find Kronos running Hormagaunts and Haruspexes and no Hive Guard, or Hydra with Carnifexes but no Gaunts.
Or, the way the three main subdivisions within the Drukhari book play are very different. Covens vs Wyches is more distinct than Iron Hands vs White Scars.
And to a large degree, the differences in playstyle between Marine subfactions is driven by their special supplement rules, which in turn is reflective of their disproportionate attention. Strip them down to just subfaction traits- like everyone else gets- and Marine armies start to look pretty same-y.
They still need to re-do all the supplements for 9th and do a Black Templar one too with that likely to happening sometime this year. So even then, the Marine train shows no signs of slowing down "soon."
If they actually do take the pedal off and give other factions chances to breathe a little then you would absolutely see a lot of the hate and frustration die down, but this is yet to happen. As is we're due 2017-2021 to be practically non-stop Marine releases of some kind, with the only significant break being 2018. There is nothing comparable to that in previous 40k Editions and it's not like when Primaris first came out the Marine range was long overdue for new models; hadn't a lot of their kits recently been updated and refreshed in like 2015 or something?
If they actually do take the pedal off and give other factions chances to breathe a little then you would absolutely see a lot of the hate and frustration die down, but this is yet to happen. As is we're due 2017-2021 to be practically non-stop Marine releases of some kind, with the only significant break being 2018. There is nothing comparable to that in previous 40k Editions and it's not like when Primaris first came out the Marine range was long overdue for new models; hadn't a lot of their kits recently been updated and refreshed in like 2015 or something?
Exactly.
...and again, I have had marines as my primary since RT, and even I can see how silly it's been. I don't get why it's so hard for some.
I mean I like Marines, Crimson Fists are one of my chapters. Except I don't play Marines, I play Guard, specifically Mordians with some converted Cadians. Mordians of which now lack models unless GW thinks their conversion they have in the Guard book is plausible for the regular player at all.
It's not about the rules for me entirely, it's the reason to continue to support GW for essentially giving me nothing in return and little reason to be excited beyond rules. Rules of which in this edition make playing Guard difficult, pricing which now makes buying 3rd party resin reasonable as a comparable option, and less and less choices each year model wise.
I think it is fair to count non-Grey Knights, loyalist space marines as 4.5 factions. Basically the historically non-compliant (BA, DA and SW) as each being a faction, the compliant as a one faction and Deathwatch as half a faction. As for Primaris space marines in terms of model releases, I consider them a brand new faction. Moreover, a brand new faction that is as much of a sure-thing as GW could possibly expect in terms of risk allowing them to put out a bigger showing initially with less concern of it going all Dreadfleet on them. It is just that these 4.5 faction share the same models.
With those assumptions in mind, I think only fairly recently has GW gone a little heavy-handed with too many new models for space marines. When it comes to Primaris Lieutenants There were basically like 6-7 with a bunch of limited editions, store exclusives for a good while. I am pretty sure we are in double digits with Primaris Lts now. I am a big fan of Primaris space marines, and I don't have any issue spending GW single character models -15% prices if I like the model. I only have 4 Primaris Lts (two sword/pistol Tactius, Shadowspear Lt and the Indomitus Lt) with a likely 5th being a kit bashed Tactius with Auto-Bolt Rifle.
Is that a crazy amount of LTs? Yes, yes it is. However, it looks a lot less crazy if one counts space marines as if they were 4.5 factions. I mean at that point, it is only slightly more crazy than the fact that Genestealer Cults have to Psyker models. And GSC players have to jump through detachment hoops to even put both in a single army.
I am pretty sure I get with the onslaught of Primaris space marines. I straight up had to take a break on working on my Primaris-only space marine army as it just became way too much with everything added in 9th. I think that this point Primaris are very well-supported even for 4.5 factions with only a few minor gaps that pale compared to far older factions. I believe that is where issues come up.
Like it or not, it appears so long as there IS a model for something GW is pretty content to leave it alone in favor of something new. I think this is more apparent in AoS where GW has been adding brand-new stuff over updating older stuff. Even the new Chaos Warriors and Knights have only been a Start Collecting leaving the old kits as still available. The only thing that really throws that hypothesis out is the new CSM/Havocs/Terminators/etc. and Necrons (which are more of an expansion than refresh). I suppose the new Sisters of Battle, but I think the exceptional age of the models and numbers of people asking for an update make it far more of an exception.
I some ways GW did themselves and the fans a disservice with the CSM refreshes. Games Workshop demonstrated that they were willing to directly update old units, but basically stopped with Chaos Space Marines. This has created a rightly or wrongly expectation that every faction would be seeing this. While I find it easy to dismiss those wanting refreshed Ork and Tyranid models (though they certainly should see more new releases themselves), I am shocked that Eldar infantry are in such a dire shape with so much Finecast for basic army builder stuff.
Now I don't place any blame on the Primaris releases. Those are cash-money for GW. I am little surprised that GW going as hard as they have on Specialist Games. Where I understand they should be trying to capture other markets instead of relying on two big tent pole games. Just the same, I don't get that maybe one less Chaos Warcry cult, Necromunda gang or Blood Bowl team is delayed a bit to get some new Eldar Guardians on the market or something.
a_typical_hero wrote: I think GW is making it clear what they see as a faction and what not by having a separate category for them in their Onlineshop.
catbarf wrote: And to a large degree, the differences in playstyle between Marine subfactions is driven by their special supplement rules, which in turn is reflective of their disproportionate attention. Strip them down to just subfaction traits- like everyone else gets- and Marine armies start to look pretty same-y.
I could do with less Primaris releases. And I too, have an all-primaris army. After Indomitus, the only new thing I bought was one Gladius tank, and I'm here waiting for Heavy Intercessors so I can write a themed list around them(All Gravis-type armor including Inceptors). I've got my toys, and being the social heel faction is sort of growing tiring. I'd like to play my Marines without being the local bad guy for taking an oversupported and overpowered faction.
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Bosskelot wrote: They still need to re-do all the supplements for 9th and do a Black Templar one too with that likely to happening sometime this year. So even then, the Marine train shows no signs of slowing down "soon."
I'd like to see a BT one, but I'm not so sure it's a given - if anything, they should really have been included in the IF book along with the CF. I don't think we're going to see the 8.5 wave of supplements redone in a hurry, though - certainly not this year.
I am hoping Saturday's preview sheds a little light on which book we'll see after Dark Eldar, though. I don't think we'll get a roadmap like Underworlds just had updated, but I think we'll find out what the April book is. DA is Feb and DE is March, last we heard, right?
Dandelion wrote: Imo it’s a mistake to count white scars as a different faction to iron hands simply based on the use of supplements. You can say they play differently but so do catachans and tallarn.
I don't totally agree on the degree of difference there. AM lists often share very similar elements. But you'll almost never find Iron Hands sporting Bikes and Lightning Claw VV and no Eradicators. The way I react to when I play IH differs from WS. When I play guard it doesn't matter to me if they're Catachan, Cadian, or Mordian. Tallarn only throws a wrench if they drag in a super heavy, but no really one does that.
But how much of that is the result of Space Marines getting so many different supplements? Death Korps and Elysians (RIP) effectively had supplements in their FW rules, and while they may have been rather rare, I don't know that you could honestly say that they are "just reskinned Guardsmen", at least with regards to their lists and playstyles. Imagine if the regiments you mentioned got their own full spinoff codices with unique units and mechanics the way certain Chapters do, would you react the same to Tallarn and Catachan armies in that case?
Many posters have mentioned the unequal allocation of time and care when it comes to Space Marines vs. the rest of the factions, and this is a direct result of that inequality. You can react differently to IH vs WSbecause Space Marines get so much extra effort. You don't react differently to Mordian vs Valhallan because GW has not made them as different as they made IH and WS.
catbarf wrote: And to a large degree, the differences in playstyle between Marine subfactions is driven by their special supplement rules, which in turn is reflective of their disproportionate attention. Strip them down to just subfaction traits- like everyone else gets- and Marine armies start to look pretty same-y.
Disproportionate? If they get half the releases and half of the hate isn't that proportional? Disproportionate is what happened to Grey Knights for most of 8th and now Tau in 9th. Although the personal attacks over things like "I like how primaris look more" is toxic.
Bosskelot wrote: They still need to re-do all the supplements for 9th and do a Black Templar one too with that likely to happening sometime this year. So even then, the Marine train shows no signs of slowing down "soon."
this is assuming they bother to re-do the other supplements.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe someday we will get a non Marine supplement.
I hope not. Supplements means having to buy two books just to play the basic stuff. 90% of my SW collection is in the supplement, only the transports and a couple of characters are from the generic book.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe someday we will get a non Marine supplement.
Like all the ones from 6th/7th? Iyanden? Farsight Enclaves? Cadia? Haemonculus Covens?
and the Psykic awakening stuff which is still valid for non marine armies.
You mean like Faith and Fury which was primarily Marine focused.
Not to mention saying it's okay your faction got 6 pages while my subfaction gets it's own approximatly 10 pages of rules each thats fair is one of the biggest causes of marine hate.
Stop defending the favouritism and other factions might see something more than 2 and a bit faction releases in an entire edition.
This 100%. The release schedule makes it feel like Marines are cannibalising other factions at this point. Even the Necrons, that got released alongside the Marines feel like they're already forgotten for more Space Marine goodness. Death Guard will be no different.
What does DGneed? A couple models to cover HQs.
What Necron kits need a redo? C'Tan models, Tesseract, and Obelisk. All of these are huge kits and pushing out that many high price kits would be a terrible idea.
What do SMneed? They already have by far the largest range of models of any GW army. I'd argue SM don't need any new models for the duration of 9th edition. The fact GW comes up with a whole host of new models for the new Codex doesn't mean SMneeded them but apparently it's enough to make people think they did. Would we really have been complaining if GW hadn't decided that SM needed Heavy Intercessors as a whole new Troops choice? Or a Techmarine-crewed turret? Or yet another Captain variant?
If the needs of the army are your yardstick I don't think you've got a leg to stand on when it comes to SM.
Insectum7 wrote: SM haven't needed anything since 4th edition. The last unit that really had a place was the Drop Pod.
Eh, I'd include the Land Speeder Storm (to give a suitable transport for Scouts) and, when aircraft were added to the game, porting the Hunter from Epic: Armageddon (and even adding the Stalker variant) made sense too.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe someday we will get a non Marine supplement.
Like all the ones from 6th/7th? Iyanden? Farsight Enclaves? Cadia? Haemonculus Covens?
and the Psykic awakening stuff which is still valid for non marine armies.
Psychic Awakening is not a supplement is it? Its a Campaign book - or are you including ALL the campaigns that Marines dominated (so all of them) as Marine supplements.
I have all those older books which are closer to actual supllments but still how many non marine suplements for the current 8/9th ed vs how many Marine ones?
Bosskelot wrote: They still need to re-do all the supplements for 9th and do a Black Templar one too with that likely to happening sometime this year. So even then, the Marine train shows no signs of slowing down "soon."
If they actually do take the pedal off and give other factions chances to breathe a little then you would absolutely see a lot of the hate and frustration die down, but this is yet to happen. As is we're due 2017-2021 to be practically non-stop Marine releases of some kind, with the only significant break being 2018. There is nothing comparable to that in previous 40k Editions and it's not like when Primaris first came out the Marine range was long overdue for new models; hadn't a lot of their kits recently been updated and refreshed in like 2015 or something?
And on that day Dakka shall return to its true passion: Complaining that space marines aren't strong enough and we need to return to the days where a tactical marine could fistfight other factions' melee specialist units and out-shoot other factions' gun specialist units.
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Da Boss wrote: For a big chunk of time Orks didn't even have a main tank model.
Do they have one now? They've got a transport and a heavy transport. Unless you're counting the stuff from FW?
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch didn't happen then? They didn't take up a release slot? Dark Angels aren't going to take up a whole month after GW announced they were slowing down?
That's weird, it wasn't all that long ago, memory must be playing tricks on me.
I believe I've said this before, but I think people would be a lot less hostile towards Marines if their releases weren't at the expense of other armies.
Bear in mind that every SM release is done at the expense of releasing a model for another army instead.
Dark Eldar have only lost models and options since 5th, but if GW had made DEHQs instead of Primaris Lieutenants, they could have basically have given DE their entire HQ section back and would still have had some Primaris Lieutenants left over.
Then you've got Eldar and Imperial Guard, both of which have been stuck with drinking-age models since time immemorial, yet there has been no significant attempt to update either line beyond the most token of offerings.
I honestly think that if GW had just taken the time to give some love to the neglected factions *first*, no one would have cared if they then spent the next 2-3 years vomiting Marines from every orifice.
And it's not even just model releases. Look at how the Psychic Awakening books were handled - the Marine factions got new warlord traits, new artefacts, new stratagems, new custom traits that work differently (i.e. better) than those of any other army etc. Okay, now what did DE get? Some uninspired custom traits (90% of which were garbage from the get-go, and the ones that weren't were swiftly nerfed to that level) and absolutely nothing else.
But I tell you what, I, as a Dark Eldar player, will be as reasonable as I think I possibly can be. So how about this - I won't ask GW for a single new model. Not one. GW can give every last one of them to Marines (I mean, they were probably planning to do that anyway, but hey). All I ask in return is that Dark Eldar get back their deleted HQs, units and wargear. Then leave me (and other DE players) to convert them ourselves.
Is it ideal? No. But I'd take it in a heartbeat over the current situation.
After 5 pages of argument and evidence, it would be nice to see the OP weigh in and let us know if their view has been changed or their understanding of the complaints deepened. I count one one line post in this thread not really addressing any of the counter arguments put to them.
Is the reason for this thread just to start a fight and walk away?
You mean like Faith and Fury which was primarily Marine focused.
And all of that stuff is in the codex now.
But hey, if you want to complain about that? Remember that Engine War put out just as much content for Mechanicus and The Greater Good did for the Tau, Guard, and Genestealer Cults--in one book.
Not to mention saying it's okay your faction got 6 pages while my subfaction gets it's own approximatly 10 pages of rules each thats fair is one of the biggest causes of marine hate.
Stop defending the favouritism and other factions might see something more than 2 and a bit faction releases in an entire edition.
Then people might feel less hate.
No, they won't. They'll continue to be petty vindictive children when they don't get what they want. When Genestealer Cultists got a massive range update, people whined that it contained "so many characters" and that they didn't get things they made up as wild speculation.
Additionally, the nonstop complaining about "needing so many other books!" virtually guarantees that no other faction will see supplemental material, whether or not actual players of the faction would like to see them(Xenarites book for Mechanicus? Yes please!). Marines getting supplements is not a huge deal as much as people like to make it out to be given that most of them are a single character, an alternate armory page, some stratagems, and some extra warlord traits.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe someday we will get a non Marine supplement.
Like all the ones from 6th/7th? Iyanden? Farsight Enclaves? Cadia? Haemonculus Covens?
To be fair, Farsight Enclaves and Cadia (just to name two) have had a bigger importance in 40K fluff than some of the SM chapters with supplements.
Them receiving their own supplement shouldn't surprise anyone.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe someday we will get a non Marine supplement.
Like all the ones from 6th/7th? Iyanden? Farsight Enclaves? Cadia? Haemonculus Covens?
To be fair, Farsight Enclaves and Cadia (just to name two) have had a bigger importance in 40K fluff than some of the SM chapters with supplements.
Them receiving their own supplement shouldn't surprise anyone.
Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Imperial Fists/Crimson Fists, Ultramarines, Deathwatch, White Scars, Iron Hands, and Salamanders. Those are the Chapters which have supplements. I'd argue that of them? Scars, Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard are the least "important"...but even being the least important, they still have an important historical component to them.
Cadia has a bigger importance to the lore than some of those and didn't get hardly anything. The "Cadian Supplement" wasn't. It was just the rules from the Mont'ka book available without needing to buy the Mont'ka book.
Farsight's importance to the lore of 40k at large is questionable. It's important to the Tau lore, not so much 40k at large.
I'll agree that Farsight is a good choice to a supplement but them not getting one is not necessarily the end of the world. I don't know how we're going to do Cadia moving forward...but I'm hoping there will be something.
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch didn't happen then? They didn't take up a release slot? Dark Angels aren't going to take up a whole month after GW announced they were slowing down?
That's weird, it wasn't all that long ago, memory must be playing tricks on me.
If your memory is telling you that, since the start of 9th edition, we have seen the release of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Deathwatch, and that Codex: Dark Angels is on your mental list as coming soon - bearing in mind the original statement I addressed - then yes, your memory is playing tricks on you.
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch didn't happen then? They didn't take up a release slot? Dark Angels aren't going to take up a whole month after GW announced they were slowing down?
That's weird, it wasn't all that long ago, memory must be playing tricks on me.
If your memory is telling you that, since the start of 9th edition, we have seen the release of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Deathwatch, and that Codex: Dark Angels is on your mental list as coming soon - bearing in mind the original statement I addressed - then yes, your memory is playing tricks on you.
They said nothing about them being Codecs-only that they're taking up release space.
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch didn't happen then? They didn't take up a release slot? Dark Angels aren't going to take up a whole month after GW announced they were slowing down?
That's weird, it wasn't all that long ago, memory must be playing tricks on me.
If your memory is telling you that, since the start of 9th edition, we have seen the release of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Deathwatch, and that Codex: Dark Angels is on your mental list as coming soon - bearing in mind the original statement I addressed - then yes, your memory is playing tricks on you.
They said nothing about them being Codecs-only that they're taking up release space.
Again, look at the quote I responded to initially. The one at the root of that little quote pyramid.
Darsath wrote: I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?
No faction needs models because 40k isn't needed at all, so this argument is bunk. People need to recall that however much time, money, blood, etc. they've invested into 40k doesn't mean a damned thing because 40k isn't their game, it's GW's game.
Darsath wrote: I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?
No faction needs models because 40k isn't needed at all, so this argument is bunk.
Your inability to understand context doesn't invalidate the argument. Clearly we're talking about a relative need within the context of 40k as a whole. I suspect you know that and just enjoy being contrarian.
Slipspace wrote: Your inability to understand context doesn't invalidate the argument. Clearly we're talking about a relative need within the context of 40k as a whole. I suspect you know that and just enjoy being contrarian.
Is any faction with current rules unable to meet the requirements to build a legal list? No... Then no faction NEEDS anything. Do players of certain factions DESIRE new models, yeah of course they do and they always will.
Is any faction with current rules unable to meet the requirements to build a legal list? No... Then no faction NEEDS anything. Do players of certain factions DESIRE new models, yeah of course they do and they always will.
Why even bother participating if that's your stance ...
I feel everyone's list needs to be somewhat tailored to kill space marines, especially newer primaris stuff, ie they should hate them with all their heart in hopes of killing as many marine poop heads as possible
Tycho wrote: Why even bother participating if that's your stance ...
I could ask the same of you. If 40k is so broken and unbalanced and some factions never even get models but only lose them why do people that dislike the status quo stay? There are other games and other hobbies that can scratch the itch so why stay chained to a company you clearly dislike?
Darsath wrote: I genuinely want to hear from others. Who else agrees with Canadian's stance above?
Complete miniature product lines don't need anything, that's just your opinion. I empathize with wanting stuff but if marines are what makes up the vast majority of sales then that's what we're all gonna get. Imo the creators who would agree with you are all dead, gone, or have lost any sort of passion for the game. All that's left is the corporate side that sees no reason not to make wave after wave of marines.
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch didn't happen then? They didn't take up a release slot? Dark Angels aren't going to take up a whole month after GW announced they were slowing down?
That's weird, it wasn't all that long ago, memory must be playing tricks on me.
If your memory is telling you that, since the start of 9th edition, we have seen the release of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Deathwatch, and that Codex: Dark Angels is on your mental list as coming soon - bearing in mind the original statement I addressed - then yes, your memory is playing tricks on you.
They said nothing about them being Codecs-only that they're taking up release space.
Again, look at the quote I responded to initially. The one at the root of that little quote pyramid.
See that last word?
My apologies - you are "technically correct, the best kind of correct" *adjusts pocket protector, pushes up thick poindexter glasses* You get 100 dakkabux redeemable at any BCB Franchise Location.
TECHNICALLY we have gotten since the launch of 9th merely ONE marine codex, three marine codex SUPPLEMENTS that are unlike codexes because...well they take up a book release slot...and they've got just as many datasheets in them as many of the other full codexes....more rules, usually....just as much lore...just as many plastic kits supported that are unique to them...but they have the word SUPPLEMENT after the word CODEX so you are right.
...Burn the internet to the fething ground please god.
Again, look at the quote I responded to initially. The one at the root of that little quote pyramid.
See that last word?
Ok so because i called them codexes, my whole argument is invalid? I called them codex because even though theyre supplements, they have more stuff in them than some full-on codexes.
the_scotsman wrote: My apologies - you are "technically correct, the best kind of correct" *adjusts pocket protector, pushes up thick poindexter glasses* You get 100 dakkabux redeemable at any BCB Franchise Location.
TECHNICALLY we have gotten since the launch of 9th merely ONE marine codex, three marine codex SUPPLEMENTS that are unlike codexes because...well they take up a book release slot...and they've got just as many datasheets in them as many of the other full codexes....more rules, usually....just as much lore...just as many plastic kits supported that are unique to them...but they have the word SUPPLEMENT after the word CODEX so you are right.
...Burn the internet to the fething ground please god.
Says the man who used the term 'avalanche of space marine garbage' in a thread where a new player asked about the current state of 40k. You're surely unbiased and in no way contribute to the problems you see within this community... Give your head a shake.
I could ask the same of you. If 40k is so broken and unbalanced and some factions never even get models but only lose them why do people that dislike the status quo stay? There are other games and other hobbies that can scratch the itch so why stay chained to a company you clearly dislike?
So I won't dodge your question like you dodged mine. If you look through my posts history, you'll see me both defend and criticize GW. In a thread less than an hour ago I actually stood up for both GW and the play testers. When they do things right I'm right there saying "nice work Gdubs". When I think they've screwed up, I will say it.
This is a far cry from entering every thread with a deliberately contrarion viewpoint that actually aims at making discussion almost pointless. For a game you haven't ....
I genuinely want to hear from others. Who else agrees with Canadian's stance above?
The fact that there's a discussion at all would seem to indicate few do ...
VladimirHerzog wrote: [Ok so because i called them codexes, my whole argument is invalid? I called them codex because even though theyre supplements, they have more stuff in them than some full-on codexes.
Correct terms are important so all parties in a debate know what the actual argument is about. You set the terms if you meant something else than what you typed that's on you. I suggest trying the term 'codex-like supplements' next time you want to complain about Marines getting support.
Tycho wrote: So I won't dodge your question like you dodged mine. If you look through my posts history, you'll see me both defend and criticize GW. In a thread less than an hour ago I actually stood up for both GW and the play testers. When they do things right I'm right there saying "nice work Gdubs". When I think they've screwed up, I will say it.
None of that changes the fact that you seem to dislike the game enough to be here posting about it regularly. Now before you try to retort that I do the same, I'm currently at work killing time until I see my next customer and thus am getting paid for my time spent here, what's your excuse?
VladimirHerzog wrote: [Ok so because i called them codexes, my whole argument is invalid? I called them codex because even though theyre supplements, they have more stuff in them than some full-on codexes.
Correct terms are important so all parties in a debate know what the actual argument is about. You set the terms if you meant something else than what you typed that's on you. I suggest trying the term 'codex-like supplements' next time you want to complain about Marines getting support.
fair enough i guess. I thought people would understand what i meant but evidently they didn't. Or they decided to use a single word to go full-on "ACKTUALLYY" instead of addressing my actual argument.
None of that changes the fact that you seem to dislike the game enough to be here posting about it regularly. Now before you try to retort that I do the same, I'm currently at work killing time until I see my next customer and thus am getting paid for my time spent here, what's your excuse?
Discussing about the games shortcoming isnt a sign of dislike. On the contrary, it shows engagement in the game to a point where you see the problems it has and what you wish was fixed.
When someone truly doesn't like a game, they stop talking about it or frequenting the forums dedicated to it (like i did with MTG when i switched to wargaming).
40K, despite its many flaws, is still a very enjoyable game to play as long as i have a quick talk with my opponents beforehand about what powerlevel we want to play the game at.
40k only truly becomes unfun when you end up with two players with different expectations of the game playing against each other.
Darsath wrote: I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?
No, I don't think I can agree to that. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have a legal space marine army if that was the case. But you tell me:
Spoiler:
I know it wouldn't be able to play 2000pt games without post-7th edition models.
I really like Primaris space marines. They took my interest from zero with loyalist space marines to that collection in the spoiler above and beyond. I don't even think an enbiggening of the Firstborn sculpts to 'true scale' would have me bother. Primaris are the part I like about those models. You may believe that Primaris are superfluous and a waste of GW resources that could have been used to better promote other factions. I am not likely to change your mind. However, just for a moment, consider that maybe it could be possible part of the reason GW kicked their release schedule into overdrive is in part due in part to the success of Primaris space marines. They are obviously popular enough that GW keeps cranking them out at a break-neck speed to the point that even me as a fan of them has to wonder maybe they have over saturated their inventory with them. Maybe some other faction refresh coulda, woulda, shoulda done the same thing. That's always going to be an unknown.
I can agree to the idea that maybe GW could spread the wealth a little more toward older factions that have languished instead of creating the next big thing. Be it a new faction, a new tent-pole game, a bunch re-freshed and new specialist games, and yes, even a radical addition more akin to a new faction than a refresh of the company's most popular model line. I don't think anyone can here can say with certainty that Primaris releases are actively blocking other faction releases. At best, they are maybe slowing some progress due to the GW having the idea that a customer will buy both new Intercessors and new Eldar Guardians, just not in the same fiscal quarter.
I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.
VladimirHerzog wrote: fair enough i guess. I thought people would understand what i meant but evidently they didn't. Or they decided to use a single word to go full-on "ACKTUALLYY" instead of addressing my actual argument.
This is the internet? When are people you're debating against ever that charitable. xD
Discussing about the games shortcoming isnt a sign of dislike. On the contrary, it shows engagement in the game to a point where you see the problems it has and what you wish was fixed.
When someone truly doesn't like a game, they stop talking about it or frequenting the forums dedicated to it (like i did with MTG when i switched to wargaming).
That is an excellent point!
40k only truly becomes unfun when you end up with two players with different expectations of the game playing against each other.
Or when the dice just go entirely cold for one player while staying hot/average for another. Those games always suck.
None of that changes the fact that you seem to dislike the game enough to be here posting about it regularly. Now before you try to retort that I do the same, I'm currently at work killing time until I see my next customer and thus am getting paid for my time spent here, what's your excuse?
Yes. I dislike it so much that I can't stop posting about it. In fact, I hate the company so much I went out of my way to complement them on releasing the Munitorum update for free, and have defended them like 3 times today.
and um ... we're pretty much all doing the same thing RE work right now.
Go outside dude.
Discussing about the games shortcoming isnt a sign of dislike. On the contrary, it shows engagement in the game to a point where you see the problems it has and what you wish was fixed.
When someone truly doesn't like a game, they stop talking about it or frequenting the forums dedicated to it (like i did with MTG when i switched to wargaming).
Did you miss the part where I am literally at my job right now. I'd love to go do something else, but seeing as I get paid to stand here I'll stay where I am for now.
i know, i was just bringing up that complaining about a game online doesnt mean you hate the game at all.
Sorry man. Sloppy quote on my part. That wasn't aimed at you! Mr 5th attacks me and two posts later says you have a good point for the same thing I just told him.
Was just pointing out how silly that is. He should probably start following what he wrote in his own sig ...
Insectum7 wrote: SM haven't needed anything since 4th edition. The last unit that really had a place was the Drop Pod.
Eh, I'd include the Land Speeder Storm (to give a suitable transport for Scouts) and, when aircraft were added to the game, porting the Hunter from Epic: Armageddon (and even adding the Stalker variant) made sense too.
I'd disagree, as I've never had to field any of those units even once.
You don't see Eldar players complaining that they need a transport specifically designed for Rangers, for example. It's all extra.
Tycho wrote: Sorry man. Sloppy quote on my part. That wasn't aimed at you! Mr 5th attacks me and two posts later says you have a good point for the same thing I just told him.
Was just pointing out how silly that is. He should probably start following what he wrote in his own sig ...
I am aware. I just think he said it better is all.
What do SMneed? They already have by far the largest range of models of any GW army. I'd argue SM don't need any new models for the duration of 9th edition. The fact GW comes up with a whole host of new models for the new Codex doesn't mean SMneeded them but apparently it's enough to make people think they did. Would we really have been complaining if GW hadn't decided that SM needed Heavy Intercessors as a whole new Troops choice? Or a Techmarine-crewed turret? Or yet another Captain variant?
If the needs of the army are your yardstick I don't think you've got a leg to stand on when it comes to SM.
If that's the yardstick then no one really needs any models. As much as people don't agree Primaris are a separate army that FB were allowed to join into. They're the primary driver of the narrative and the most recognizable face for the hobby. Do you think a Hive Tyrant would draw in more people? It makes nothing but sense for GW to renew the scale of the armies and do so with Marines at the fore.
Irkjoe wrote: Imo the creators who would agree with you are all dead, gone, or have lost any sort of passion for the game. All that's left is the corporate side that sees no reason not to make wave after wave of marines.
I play lots of armies - I wish they all would be updated. Marines did in fact NEED these updates because marines on the whole did not live up to their lore. Their size and proportions were off and it was anticlimatic for me. Now they actually look the part - it's great.
Other armies do need updates.
IG and Eldar I think before everyone else. What IG needs is a new modern tank line. Have tanks resembling abrams/challenger tanks / leopards/ even that new Russian tank. These things would sell like hotcakes...sad thing is...there would be so much hatred at the same time...people complaining they liked the old WW1 look of things.
Eldar too need a complete visual overhaul...most of their stuff just looks dumb to me.
Those stick out to me as most needed at this time.
Xenomancers wrote: I play lots of armies - I wish they all would be updated. Marines did in fact NEED these updates because marines on the whole did not live up to their lore. Their size and proportions were off and it was anticlimatic for me. Now they actually look the part - it's great.
Other armies do need updates.
IG and Eldar I think before everyone else. What IG needs is a new modern tank line. Have tanks resembling abrams/challenger tanks / leopards/ even that new Russian tank. These things would sell like hotcakes...sad thing is...there would be so much hatred at the same time...people complaining they liked the old WW1 look of things.
Eldar too need a complete visual overhaul...most of their stuff just looks dumb to me.
Those stick out to me as most needed at this time.
The eldar aesthetic is fine and clearly defined. What is not fine is the % of the army that is still finecast from the original metal models.
40k suffers from a problem that it is basically 30k at this point. GW wants to make 40k the next 30k and we will all reap the benefits/loss depending on what we play. The future is very much marine and if you are not interested in a 30k match then 40k will most likely not be your game.
GW has spent, through its ancillaries, a lot of time and money in creating the Space Marine mythos and it reflects very much in the game now. No other faction has such a wide range of lore and fluff to sell itself and that will always be why Xenos factions will be the NPCs in this game. GW most likely realizes this problem but because they like money they will not move away from this path. However, you do see them trying to diversify in AoS and the lore and books reflect a much more richer universe with different factions. There is even more intrigue and darker stories being told in AoS now than I get from 40k due to the heroification of Marines as of late.
Which is why - and I have said this before - AoS is a much healthier game than 40k at the moment, warts and all.
IG and Eldar I think before everyone else. What IG needs is a new modern tank line. Have tanks resembling abrams/challenger tanks / leopards/ even that new Russian tank. These things would sell like hotcakes...sad thing is...there would be so much hatred at the same time...people complaining they liked the old WW1 look of things.
Eldar too need a complete visual overhaul...most of their stuff just looks dumb to me.
Those stick out to me as most needed at this time.
You leave Russ's alone! They're glorious and perfect! They just need good rules (I might have a soft spot for them).
For me it's Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar that need the most love. Would be amazing if Dark Eldar got Vect back as a cool centerpiece model imo.
VladimirHerzog wrote: The eldar aesthetic is fine and clearly defined. What is not fine is the % of the army that is still finecast from the original metal models.
I think Eldar can end up looking pretty goofy if anybody who isn't a great painter does anything ambitious with them. They already have such off proportions and such a strong aesthetic that it can be easy to end up with a visual mess on the table.
VladimirHerzog wrote: 9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.
No, we see:
SM, Necron, [long COVID gap], Death Guard, [shorter COVID gap], Dark Eldar...
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Deathwatch didn't happen then? They didn't take up a release slot? Dark Angels aren't going to take up a whole month after GW announced they were slowing down?
That's weird, it wasn't all that long ago, memory must be playing tricks on me.
If your memory is telling you that, since the start of 9th edition, we have seen the release of Codex: Space Wolves, Codex: Blood Angels and Codex: Deathwatch, and that Codex: Dark Angels is on your mental list as coming soon - bearing in mind the original statement I addressed - then yes, your memory is playing tricks on you.
They said nothing about them being Codecs-only that they're taking up release space.
Again, look at the quote I responded to initially. The one at the root of that little quote pyramid.
See that last word?
My apologies - you are "technically correct, the best kind of correct" *adjusts pocket protector, pushes up thick poindexter glasses* You get 100 dakkabux redeemable at any BCB Franchise Location.
TECHNICALLY we have gotten since the launch of 9th merely ONE marine codex, three marine codex SUPPLEMENTS that are unlike codexes because...well they take up a book release slot...and they've got just as many datasheets in them as many of the other full codexes....more rules, usually....just as much lore...just as many plastic kits supported that are unique to them...but they have the word SUPPLEMENT after the word CODEX so you are right.
...Burn the internet to the fething ground please god.
Eldarsif wrote: 40k suffers from a problem that it is basically 30k at this point. GW wants to make 40k the next 30k and we will all reap the benefits/loss depending on what we play. The future is very much marine and if you are not interested in a 30k match then 40k will most likely not be your game.
GW has spent, through its ancillaries, a lot of time and money in creating the Space Marine mythos and it reflects very much in the game now. No other faction has such a wide range of lore and fluff to sell itself and that will always be why Xenos factions will be the NPCs in this game. GW most likely realizes this problem but because they like money they will not move away from this path. However, you do see them trying to diversify in AoS and the lore and books reflect a much more richer universe with different factions. There is even more intrigue and darker stories being told in AoS now than I get from 40k due to the heroification of Marines as of late.
Which is why - and I have said this before - AoS is a much healthier game than 40k at the moment, warts and all.
You're not separating marketing from actual production. Stormcast are very much the face of AoS. They also got a ton of releases early that people complained about, because they were a gimped army. Now that period is past and GW is free to explore other armies. And while GW has many more "Stormcast" avenues to pull from they'll be forced to do large releases for other armies.
Most armies have had no small number of releases. If I were a betting man I would say AM will be a big splash this year.
If that's the yardstick then no one really needs any models. As much as people don't agree Primaris are a separate army that FB were allowed to join into. They're the primary driver of the narrative and the most recognizable face for the hobby. Do you think a Hive Tyrant would draw in more people? It makes nothing but sense for GW to renew the scale of the armies and do so with Marines at the fore.
Well, we can treat them separately, okay. Why do we need Primaris as a separate army then? The driver of the narrative is putting the cart before the horse, they drive the narrative because they're new Space Marines. They're the recognizable face because they're new Space Marines. And yeah, if GW put their minds to it and came up with good fluff to back it, there totally could have been some massive narrative between the Ubermind (some gestalt representation of the Hive) and those stoic defenders of humanity, the firstborn space marines. This is all just circular logic to justify Primaris and the obsession from GW with giving them new stuff.
What do SMneed? They already have by far the largest range of models of any GW army. I'd argue SM don't need any new models for the duration of 9th edition. The fact GW comes up with a whole host of new models for the new Codex doesn't mean SMneeded them but apparently it's enough to make people think they did. Would we really have been complaining if GW hadn't decided that SM needed Heavy Intercessors as a whole new Troops choice? Or a Techmarine-crewed turret? Or yet another Captain variant?
If the needs of the army are your yardstick I don't think you've got a leg to stand on when it comes to SM.
If that's the yardstick then no one really needs any models. As much as people don't agree Primaris are a separate army that FB were allowed to join into. They're the primary driver of the narrative and the most recognizable face for the hobby. Do you think a Hive Tyrant would draw in more people? It makes nothing but sense for GW to renew the scale of the armies and do so with Marines at the fore.
Seeing as "At the fore" is not surrounded by 24 quotation marks here, I'm going to assume that either you're willfully lying or are naive enough to actually think GW is planning some kind of 'roll out' of the increased scale to all factions.
Despite recent releases like Necrons being completely identical in size to their previous incarnations.
This is why I'm having a hard time taking your ever-increasing levels of head in the sand apologia seriously. You're really now presenting Primaris as "step one" in some kind of game wide roll out of scale increase, and not the product of a marketing committee meeting where they tried to figure out how to shift their whale consumer bracket from a collection hobby to a FOMO-driven planned obsolescence model while taking the opportunity to consolidate their main IP's brand image to be more legally defensible?
You're not separating marketing from actual production. Stormcast are very much the face of AoS. They also got a ton of releases early that people complained about, because they were a gimped army. Now that period is past and GW is free to explore other armies. And while GW has many more "Stormcast" avenues to pull from they'll be forced to do large releases for other armies.
Most armies have had no small number of releases. If I were a betting man I would say AM will be a big splash this year.
Come on, there's no comparing SM to SCE. The SCE push was 100% artificial, that was GW propping that whole initiative up. I'm not a huge SM fan but I will at least acknowledge that their popularity is mostly organic (though still probably overly driven by GW's marketing practices) and they have decidedly "caught on".
And I don't really get the second point; seems like GW does some large-ish release for non-Space Marines once or twice a year. There are a lot of armies to get through if you're only doing something substantial once a year like that.
the_scotsman wrote: My apologies - you are "technically correct, the best kind of correct" *adjusts pocket protector, pushes up thick poindexter glasses* You get 100 dakkabux redeemable at any BCB Franchise Location.
TECHNICALLY we have gotten since the launch of 9th merely ONE marine codex, three marine codex SUPPLEMENTS that are unlike codexes because...well they take up a book release slot...and they've got just as many datasheets in them as many of the other full codexes....more rules, usually....just as much lore...just as many plastic kits supported that are unique to them...but they have the word SUPPLEMENT after the word CODEX so you are right.
...Burn the internet to the fething ground please god.
Says the man who used the term 'avalanche of space marine garbage' in a thread where a new player asked about the current state of 40k. You're surely unbiased and in no way contribute to the problems you see within this community... Give your head a shake.
The avalanche of loyalist marine garbage is by very far the biggest downside in the state of the game currently. I'm obviously biased, every person is biased, but if you gave any other faction the same amount of exclusive attention marines have gotten since the start of 8th I'd start seeing their releases as an avalanche of garbage as well.
The release schedule is an aspect of peoples' enjoyment of the game just as much as the rules state is, and right now AOS is skipping through a glorious golden age of a million visually incredible new armies while 40k continues to slog through a hideously long drawn out rehash of the entire gigantic marine range while also bending over backwards to try and keep the firstborn range relevant and everyone's special snowflake units as well.
Darsath wrote: I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?
No, I don't think I can agree to that. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have a legal space marine army if that was the case. But you tell me:
[spoiler]
I know it wouldn't be able to play 2000pt games without post-7th edition models.
I really like Primaris space marines. They took my interest from zero with loyalist space marines to that collection in the spoiler above and beyond. I don't even think an enbiggening of the Firstborn sculpts to 'true scale' would have me bother. Primaris are the part I like about those models. You may believe that Primaris are superfluous and a waste of GW resources that could have been used to better promote other factions. I am not likely to change your mind. However, just for a moment, consider that maybe it could be possible part of the reason GW kicked their release schedule into overdrive is in part due in part to the success of Primaris space marines. They are obviously popular enough that GW keeps cranking them out at a break-neck speed to the point that even me as a fan of them has to wonder maybe they have over saturated their inventory with them. [/spoiler]Maybe some other faction refresh coulda, woulda, shoulda done the same thing. That's always going to be an unknown.
I can agree to the idea that maybe GW could spread the wealth a little more toward older factions that have languished instead of creating the next big thing. Be it a new faction, a new tent-pole game, a bunch re-freshed and new specialist games, and yes, even a radical addition more akin to a new faction than a refresh of the company's most popular model line. I don't think anyone can here can say with certainty that Primaris releases are actively blocking other faction releases. At best, they are maybe slowing some progress due to the GW having the idea that a customer will buy both new Intercessors and new Eldar Guardians, just not in the same fiscal quarter.
I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: there totally could have been some massive narrative between the Ubermind (some gestalt representation of the Hive) and those stoic defenders of humanity, the firstborn space marines. This is all just circular logic to justify Primaris and the obsession from GW with giving them new stuff.
This is not a marketing strategy. When someone comes in, because they see Primaris and...oh...no tanks? I have to use these older ones? That stinks.
People don't generally identify with an ork or a demon or a lovecraftian alien. A marine creates broad appeal and then people find their niche.
I don't identify with Marines at all, if anything it's Imperial Guard. Marines are really weird. In an interesting way, I think they are cool, but they are not easy to identify with.
All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.
Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.
Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.
Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.
Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.
Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...
LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.
Seeing as "At the fore" is not surrounded by 24 quotation marks here, I'm going to assume that either you're willfully lying or are naive enough to actually think GW is planning some kind of 'roll out' of the increased scale to all factions.
Despite recent releases like Necrons being completely identical in size to their previous incarnations.
This is why I'm having a hard time taking your ever-increasing levels of head in the sand apologia seriously. You're really now presenting Primaris as "step one" in some kind of game wide roll out of scale increase, and not the product of a marketing committee meeting where they tried to figure out how to shift their whale consumer bracket from a collection hobby to a FOMO-driven planned obsolescence model while taking the opportunity to consolidate their main IP's brand image to be more legally defensible?
I think you're putting more to my words than there are. They're taking the opportunity to level set the scale where appropriate - not that they will be doing it to everything. CSM, DG and TS got bigger. The renegades from BSF are scaled differently than IS. Marines were - I guess this is opinion - in need of the scale redo. They could have just made them replacement style like CSM, but they they'd miss the opportunity to drive the narrative ( something that also doesn't sit well with some people ).
Xenomancers wrote: All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.
Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.
Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.
Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.
Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.
Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...
LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.
Thank you for carrying that weight on your shoulders, the burden must be enormous. If only your efforts were appreciated by the masses that despise you. You truly are the hero the fandom needs, but not the one it deserves.
Xenomancers wrote: All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.
Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.
Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.
Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.
Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.
Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...
LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.
Couldn't it be that marines are so easy to play and overpowered that a thread in which players discuss about tactics is actually pointless?
Xenomancers wrote: All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.
Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.
Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.
Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.
Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.
Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...
LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.
Thank you for carrying that weight on your shoulders, the burden must be enormous. If only your efforts were appreciated by the masses that despise you. You truly are the hero the fandom needs, but not the one it deserves.
The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.
Da Boss wrote: Actually the_scotsman I think technically you will find that Canadian 5th is the only unbiased person on the internet.
I hope they don't upscale all the minis! That would be awful.
I walk down the street and good people - big people - they come up to me and they're crying, and they're saying I'm unbiased. Like nobody's ever seen, they say nobody has less bias than me, it's amazing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: You know, as someone who plays Daemons, I have more support for my faction in 30k than in 40k (and rules that match the lore better to boot).
Sometimes I wish FW would release a xenos sourcebook for 30k just to see what happens.
And in AOS. hoo doggy are my tzeentch daemons incredibly fun in AOS.
Xenomancers wrote: All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.
Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.
Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.
Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.
Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.
Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...
LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.
Couldn't it be that marines are so easy to play and overpowered that a thread in which players discuss about tactics is actually pointless?
That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.
That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.
Pretty much everyone has a marine army, including dakka posters.
It's clear there are marines players who aren't interested in discussing about tactics. I for example never look at the SW tactics thread as I feel like I don't need it and there's nothing interesting to discuss there, while I'm very active on the Orks thread. I also follow tactics threads about my former armies, Drukhari and Adepta Sororitas.
Daedalus81 wrote: The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.
It's also a more "fiddly" book than I think a lot of people realize. The marine book really is pretty straight forward, but the Necron book, generally speaking, has a higher skill floor, with more to consider and, quite frankly, a lot of trap options. I think it will be a while before we really see it's absolute power level (covid and other codex releases not withstanding of course).
That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.
Pretty much everyone has a marine army, including dakka posters.
It's clear there are marines players who aren't interested in discussing about tactics. I for example never look at the SW tactics thread as I feel like I don't need it and there's nothing interesting to discuss there, while I'm very active on the Orks thread. I also follow tactics threads about my former armies, Drukhari and Adepta Sororitas.
people that are willing to engage in tactica for their armies already represent a very small minority of the playerbase. basing the popularity of a faction on the size of its tactica is pretty daft.
That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.
Pretty much everyone has a marine army, including dakka posters.
It's clear there are marines players who aren't interested in discussing about tactics. I for example never look at the SW tactics thread as I feel like I don't need it and there's nothing interesting to discuss there, while I'm very active on the Orks thread. I also follow tactics threads about my former armies, Drukhari and Adepta Sororitas.
people that are willing to engage in tactica for their armies already represent a very small minority of the playerbase. basing the popularity of a faction on the size of its tactica is pretty daft.
But false analogy proves marines arn't the poular and suppor the view the marine players have been victimised so badly they left Dakka.
Its spin doctoring 101 never let facts get in the way of a good spin opportunity.
Darsath wrote: I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?
No, I don't think I can agree to that. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have a legal space marine army if that was the case. But you tell me:
Spoiler:
I know it wouldn't be able to play 2000pt games without post-7th edition models.
I really like Primaris space marines. They took my interest from zero with loyalist space marines to that collection in the spoiler above and beyond. I don't even think an enbiggening of the Firstborn sculpts to 'true scale' would have me bother. Primaris are the part I like about those models. You may believe that Primaris are superfluous and a waste of GW resources that could have been used to better promote other factions. I am not likely to change your mind. However, just for a moment, consider that maybe it could be possible part of the reason GW kicked their release schedule into overdrive is in part due in part to the success of Primaris space marines. They are obviously popular enough that GW keeps cranking them out at a break-neck speed to the point that even me as a fan of them has to wonder maybe they have over saturated their inventory with them. Maybe some other faction refresh coulda, woulda, shoulda done the same thing. That's always going to be an unknown.
I can agree to the idea that maybe GW could spread the wealth a little more toward older factions that have languished instead of creating the next big thing. Be it a new faction, a new tent-pole game, a bunch re-freshed and new specialist games, and yes, even a radical addition more akin to a new faction than a refresh of the company's most popular model line. I don't think anyone can here can say with certainty that Primaris releases are actively blocking other faction releases. At best, they are maybe slowing some progress due to the GW having the idea that a customer will buy both new Intercessors and new Eldar Guardians, just not in the same fiscal quarter.
I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.
Primaris are particularly unique in that they come with the threat that they are replacing a current faction.
I could live with Primaris a lot easier if I knew they weren't intended as a replacement to the army I already have and love. Unfortunately, it's easy to interpret their existence as being intended to replace the former SM line. Furthermore, it appears that the lore is suggesting the same.
So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.
So I normally stay off of these types of posts, but I have free time so let's give it a go.
For context, CSM Night Lords are by far my main army (and army I've been building and collecting since CSM 3.5), with Chaos Knights and mixed daemons after that. Also, I actually really like the sculpts of a lot of the Primaris space marines, things like Bladeguard Vets and Bike Chappy are quite well done.
However, try and look at the current situation from a CSM standpoint. Whereas Space Marines have gained a lot of new units, we have lost quite a bit of ours. My Doomrider model that I converted into a Bike Lord. Gone. But see that badass Chaplain on bike with amazing rules and great combat profile. Same thing with my converted Skullcrusher of Khorne. Gone. On top of that, things like our Warp Talons and Mutilators, which have been borderline garbage since there release at the start of 6th edition, are mere shadows compared to the loyalist counterparts like BladeGuard (a brand new kit) and Sanguinary Guard. Heck, look at the Redemptor Dreadnought, for almost the same amount of points as a Forgefiend or a Maulerfiend, it shots and fights almost better than both of them combined.
But ok, what about rules. Well lets see, I get -1 to leadership. Within 6in. To a max of -3. Yay? As opposed to, Combat Doctrines, generally two really good chapter abilities, and sometimes absurdly powerful Super Doctrines. Not only that, but when something does get improved, like Hateful Assault or Astartes Chainswords, its only because because they decided Space Marines need a buff, and we get thrown some scraps as an afterthought. Example, did you know a 285 point Land Raider gets removed from play if we put a combi-plasma gun on it and it rolls a one. Yep.
And the above problems, are really nothing new. It was like this a majority of 8th edition, 9th's mission structure and subsequent releases have only exacerbated the problems. And yes, I know we will get a new codex this year. And yes, I know that even in a Community article they even specifically called out how bad the Night Lords trait is. But do I think we will get more that maybe 1-2 new models, much less get back all the ones we've lost recently. No.
But sure, convince me that my dislike of Space Marines is solely because they are popular. At the very least I'm glad they FAQ'ed us to be two wounds until our codex does arrive. Oh, Right
Vanican wrote: So I normally stay off of these types of posts, but I have free time so let's give it a go.
For context, CSM Night Lords are by far my main army, with Chaos Knights and mixed daemons after that. Also, I actually really like the sculpts of a lot of the Primaris space marines, things like Bladeguard Vets and Bike Chappy are quite well done.
However, try and look at the current situation from a CSM standpoint. Whereas Space Marines have gained a lot of new units, we have lost quite a bit of ours. My Doomrider model that I converted into a Bike Lord. Gone. But see that badass Chaplain on bike with amazing rules and great combat profile. Same thing with my converted Skullcrusher of Khorne. Gone. On top of that, things like our Warp Talons and Mutilators, which have been borderline garbage since there release at the start of 6th edition, are mere shadows compared to the loyalist counterparts like BladeGuard (a brand new kit) and Sanguinary Guard. Heck, look at the Redemptor Dreadnought, for almost the same amount of points as a Forgefiend or a Maulerfiend, it shots and fights almost better than both of the combined.
But ok, what about rules. Well lets see, I get -1 to leadership. Within 6in. To a max of -3. Yay? As opposed to, Combat Doctrines, generally two really good chapter abilities, and sometimes absurdly powerful Super Doctrines. Not only that, but when something does get improved, like Hateful Assault or Astartes Chainswords, its only because because they decided Space Marines need a buff, and we get thrown some scraps as an afterthought. Example, did you know a 285 point Land Raider gets removed from play if we but a plasma gun on it and it rolls a one. Yep.
And the above problems, are really nothing new. It was like this a majority of 8th edition, 9th's mission structure and subsequent releases have only exacerbated the problems. And yes, I know we will get a new codex this year. And yes, I know that even in a Community article they even specifically called out how bad the Night Lords trait is. But do I think we will get more that maybe 1-2 new models, much less get back all the ones we've lost recently. No.
But sure, convince me that my dislike of Space Marines is solely because they are popular. At the very least I'm glad they FAQ'ed us to be two wounds until our codex does arrive. Oh, Right
According to Xenomancer, you just need to understand that loyalist Astartes are the cash cow, and not criticize the situation, because that's biting the hand that feeds.
I don't think you can separate Marine's popularity from the fact they have been in every starter set going back to at least 1993.
I do think GW supports this in the fluff far more than they did with Stormcast (I mean...) but it also helps that GW have had to release so many new armies in AoS to stand as competition.
I mean the big Necron Wave is great. But when it is all finally out you know Necrons won't be getting much this side of 2030.
Insectum7 wrote: So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.
I don't like the idea of Primaris being the only loyalist space marines. I want Firstborn to be around for a good long while (read: never go away) despite the datasheet bloat having both create. At my most selfish, Firstborn provide me with alternate CSM rules should I want them as my CSM army leans away from the Chaos exclusive stuff and toward the more loyalist marine-like stuff. I kinda like having that fallback if the C:CSM ever becomes garbage, or the rules ends up all FUBARed like it is now all over the place since I didn't bother with the revised codex in 8th.
All I can say is that there isn't any indication that Firstborn are being sunsetted 9th edition yet. That should give them at least another 3 years. But I can't say there isn't a Sword of over them. I don't like it any more than you do.
That's also not going to stop me liking Primaris marines either.
Insectum7 wrote: So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.
I don't like the idea of Primaris being the only loyalist space marines. I want Firstborn to be around for a good long while (read: never go away) despite the datasheet bloat having both create. At my most selfish, Firstborn provide me with alternate CSM rules should I want them as my CSM army leans away from the Chaos exclusive stuff and toward the more loyalist marine-like stuff. I kinda like having that fallback if the C:CSM ever becomes garbage, or the rules ends up all FUBARed like it is now all over the place since I didn't bother with the revised codex in 8th.
All I can say is that there isn't any indication that Firstborn are being sunsetted 9th edition yet. That should give them at least another 3 years. But I can't say there isn't a Sword of over them. I don't like it any more than you do.
That's also not going to stop me liking Primaris marines either.
I DO like that sword over them and it can't drop soon enough.
Look, this isn't about what any individual likes. In game design some times you spend a lot of time and effort on this really neat element of the game. This really cool mechanic or unit or army that does this thing that you just really love. It has a special place in your heart. And then you look at what impact it has on the game as a whole and you realize... it's a problem. It doesn't make the game better even though you love it on it's own. Worse it drags things down. It layers on consequence after consequence and no mater how you spin the puzzle piece it just doesn't really fit. So you kill your darling for the sake of the project. It happens in movies too. This scene is great but... it's dragging down the movie as a whole. So it goes into the dvd extras and the cutting room floor.
Old marines are that. They are bloated all on their own before primaris ever show up. Their wargear is extensive to an extreme. their units step on each others toes. Do you want jump pack marines or BETTER jump pack marines!? Primaris are the clean slate SM need to get back on track. To fit into the rest of the puzzle. And the longer oldmarines are around the more their design influences the design of the primaris. By influence I mean corrupts it. Primaris should be standing on their own so they can be designed and built to be an army on their own because they ARE an army on their own. And first born just don't fit anymore as a design element. And they definitely don't fit any more now that they are sharing all this space with Primaris. It's time to kill your darling.
I can understand that stance too. There is a loyalist space marine datasheet bloat issue that is probably going to have to be resolved eventually. The known Primaris units are extremely unlikely to be the last. Which with each new unit pushing at the seams of the Codex: Space Marines further to the breaking point.
Again, I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.
I don't want to see Firstborn marine players have their armies put into Legends, have to find workarounds like using Primaris datasheets, using Codex: Chaos Space Marines or something else. Any more than I want to hear the same old argument to why Primaris space marines are the worst thing to happen to 40k.
Chances are something is going to have to give. That's probably at least three years away. I hope for more, but I can see why someone would hope for less. As someone that has an almost exclusively Primaris army, I think Primaris do stand on their own now. I don't really mind the ways they have been squeezed in the rules nooks and crannies to do the same thing as Firstborn but also not. It really is a nice element, for me, that separates my Primaris army from my Chaos Space Marine army, and it makes Primaris very slightly less than brain-dead easy to play. I also recognize that I am a casual player not particularly concerned with balance so long as the game works in that nebulous area where a group of players don't push too hard on optimization. That of which probably allows for the issue to remain longer than someone more concerned about rules parity. Which Dakka is far more geared toward on average.
I don't think there is any good answers to these issues.
I'm hoping for some great reckoning in the lore. Like a Primarch returning and calling Roboute and Cawl out for their nonsense.
The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend. Write them into their own faction. Modern GW has had some pretty funny meta humour of late (Gotrek returning to AoS with the outlook of an embittered WHFB player)
Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.
I can understand that stance too. There is a loyalist space marine datasheet bloat issue that is probably going to have to be resolved eventually. The known Primaris units are extremely unlikely to be the last. Which with each new unit pushing at the seams of the Codex: Space Marines further to the breaking point.
Again, I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.
I don't want to see Firstborn marine players have their armies put into Legends, have to find workarounds like using Primaris datasheets, using Codex: Chaos Space Marines or something else. Any more than I want to hear the same old argument to why Primaris space marines are the worst thing to happen to 40k.
Chances are something is going to have to give. That's probably at least three years away. I hope for more, but I can see why someone would hope for less. As someone that has an almost exclusively Primaris army, I think Primaris do stand on their own now. I don't really mind the ways they have been squeezed in the rules nooks and crannies to do the same thing as Firstborn but also not. It really is a nice element, for me, that separates my Primaris army from my Chaos Space Marine army, and it makes Primaris very slightly less than brain-dead easy to play. I also recognize that I am a casual player not particularly concerned with balance so long as the game works in that nebulous area where a group of players don't push too hard on optimization. That of which probably allows for the issue to remain longer than someone more concerned about rules parity. Which Dakka is far more geared toward on average.
I don't think there is any good answers to these issues.
I think there is a pretty interesting solution if GW was bold enough to pull the trigger.
Kill off old Marines for an edition, but drop hints that they're still going to be useable with a future update, then push them forward again in a big way with a new Codex for the lost chapters. Each having grown legion in a plan set into motion long ago the GEoM, they can come in with a bunch of heresy era tech (which could then also be passed over to chaos forces) and play on the theme of old (them) versus new (Primaris).
Eldarain wrote: ...Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.
(Russ or Vulkan, surely. In-universe they got almost no Successor Chapters because they were unwise enough to object to Guilliman coming in with his "Codex" and trying to dictate policy to the Astartes on a grand scale.)
Eldarain wrote: ...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...
Tell that to the Tomb Kings.
Nowhere near the same. Though it was criminal to drop them based on their last couple kits being fantastic...
Tomb King range expansion for 8th was, what, a year before Sigmar dropped and squatted the whole range? When was the last time there was a new loyalist oldmarine kit? (Not counting 30k.)
Assuming the Grav recuts and Stalker/Hunter and Centurions. Not sure on breakdown but 7th would have been the last time.
I'll grant you the recent point on Tomb Kings. But number of kits and more importantly income still being generated is nowhere near the same. Vanguard Vets since the last Codex dropped have probably outsold Tomb Kings.
Well we know Bretonnia is returning to the land of the living soon. Tomb Kings probably as well. It will be interesting to see how they're going to juggle all this. Sorry....a bit OT.
Eldarain wrote: ...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...
Tell that to the Tomb Kings.
Nowhere near the same. Though it was criminal to drop them based on their last couple kits being fantastic...
Tomb King range expansion for 8th was, what, a year before Sigmar dropped and squatted the whole range? When was the last time there was a new loyalist oldmarine kit? (Not counting 30k.)
It was four years before. Last TK book (and associated model release) was 2011 and AoS launched in 2015. Most of the 8th edition WHFB releases came after TK, including all the Storm of Magic content, as they were only the second army book of the edition.
Eldarain wrote: ...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...
Tell that to the Tomb Kings.
Nowhere near the same. Though it was criminal to drop them based on their last couple kits being fantastic...
Tomb King range expansion for 8th was, what, a year before Sigmar dropped and squatted the whole range? When was the last time there was a new loyalist oldmarine kit? (Not counting 30k.)
This past summer. I have a shiny new terminator librarian sitting on my desk awaiting painting.
Eldarain wrote: ...Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.
(Russ or Vulkan, surely. In-universe they got almost no Successor Chapters because they were unwise enough to object to Guilliman coming in with his "Codex" and trying to dictate policy to the Astartes on a grand scale.)
Unwise? Or able to see through Cawl’s obvious heresy, and loyal enough to the true emperor to stand for all that is right and just?
Eldarain wrote: ...Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.
(Russ or Vulkan, surely. In-universe they got almost no Successor Chapters because they were unwise enough to object to Guilliman coming in with his "Codex" and trying to dictate policy to the Astartes on a grand scale.)
Unwise? Or able to see through Cawl’s obvious heresy, and loyal enough to the true emperor to stand for all that is right and just?
"Unwise" in terms of telling the guy in charge of Terra and the gene-seed stockpiles where to shove it instead of playing along, yes.
Space Marines get all the love from GW and the Black library so its no wonder folks who like other factions get bored of it. Its also because they are written in terms they are too good at fighting to be realistic and most of them have very little personality though there is some chapters better than others in that regard.
If Space marines get all the focus at the expense of everything people who enjoy the other aspects will not be all that happy.
Insectum7 wrote: So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.
I don't like the idea of Primaris being the only loyalist space marines. I want Firstborn to be around for a good long while (read: never go away) despite the datasheet bloat having both create. At my most selfish, Firstborn provide me with alternate CSM rules should I want them as my CSM army leans away from the Chaos exclusive stuff and toward the more loyalist marine-like stuff. I kinda like having that fallback if the C:CSM ever becomes garbage, or the rules ends up all FUBARed like it is now all over the place since I didn't bother with the revised codex in 8th.
All I can say is that there isn't any indication that Firstborn are being sunsetted 9th edition yet. That should give them at least another 3 years. But I can't say there isn't a Sword of over them. I don't like it any more than you do.
That's also not going to stop me liking Primaris marines either.
I DO like that sword over them and it can't drop soon enough.
Look, this isn't about what any individual likes. In game design some times you spend a lot of time and effort on this really neat element of the game. This really cool mechanic or unit or army that does this thing that you just really love. It has a special place in your heart. And then you look at what impact it has on the game as a whole and you realize... it's a problem. It doesn't make the game better even though you love it on it's own. Worse it drags things down. It layers on consequence after consequence and no mater how you spin the puzzle piece it just doesn't really fit. So you kill your darling for the sake of the project. It happens in movies too. This scene is great but... it's dragging down the movie as a whole. So it goes into the dvd extras and the cutting room floor.
Old marines are that. They are bloated all on their own before primaris ever show up. Their wargear is extensive to an extreme. their units step on each others toes. Do you want jump pack marines or BETTER jump pack marines!? Primaris are the clean slate SM need to get back on track. To fit into the rest of the puzzle. And the longer oldmarines are around the more their design influences the design of the primaris. By influence I mean corrupts it. Primaris should be standing on their own so they can be designed and built to be an army on their own because they ARE an army on their own. And first born just don't fit anymore as a design element. And they definitely don't fit any more now that they are sharing all this space with Primaris. It's time to kill your darling.
Well he's just showing the same empathy toward marine players that they typically show towards others when their factions or entire games get squatted. You saw it here, Tomb Kings gets squatted who cares they didn't sell as well as space marines. You gotta see how that leads to resentment and pre-emptive schadenfreude at the prospect of marines suffering the same fate.
The whole 'old Marines are too bloated so need to be squatted so GW can start clean with Primaris' argument would be a lot more compelling if Primaris weren't already on a fast-track to bloat from the constant stream of releases. In some ways they're already worse.
Reivers, Incusors, and Infiltrators all uncomfortably occupy the niche once reserved to just Scouts. The number of bolt weapons alone available to Primaris eclipses the total number of weapons firstborn Marines used to have. Three different kinds of basic bolter, three different kinds of plasma cannon, three different Storm Speeders.
Even GW can't keep it straight, judging by the references to weapons that don't exist on the Heavy Intercessor datasheet.
catbarf wrote: The whole 'old Marines are too bloated so need to be squatted so GW can start clean with Primaris' argument would be a lot more compelling if Primaris weren't already on a fast-track to bloat from the constant stream of releases. In some ways they're already worse.
Reivers, Incusors, and Infiltrators all uncomfortably occupy the niche once reserved to just Scouts. The number of bolt weapons alone available to Primaris eclipses the total number of weapons firstborn Marines used to have. Three different kinds of basic bolter, three different kinds of plasma cannon, three different Storm Speeders.
Even GW can't keep it straight, judging by the references to weapons that don't exist on the Heavy Intercessor datasheet.
Yeah, this. Primaris ARE the bloat. Is this a good time to bring up the ridiculous list of bolt weapons they bring?
dan2026 wrote: I find it super frustrating that Space Marines are just finishing their 2nd complete plastic army to replace their 1st complete plastic army.
While Craftworld Eldar still have a ton of models never updated to plastic and a load more that date back to the early 90s!
Primaris are particularly unique in that they come with the threat that they are replacing a current faction.
I could live with Primaris a lot easier if I knew they weren't intended as a replacement to the army I already have and love. Unfortunately, it's easy to interpret their existence as being intended to replace the former SM line. Furthermore, it appears that the lore is suggesting the same.
So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.
I sympathise completely, but disagree on the uniqueness of the predicament.
I feel the Ynnari had exactly the same underlying purpose, and I feel similarly about them.
Primaris are particularly unique in that they come with the threat that they are replacing a current faction.
I could live with Primaris a lot easier if I knew they weren't intended as a replacement to the army I already have and love. Unfortunately, it's easy to interpret their existence as being intended to replace the former SM line. Furthermore, it appears that the lore is suggesting the same.
So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.
I sympathise completely, but disagree on the uniqueness of the predicament.
I feel the Ynnari had exactly the same underlying purpose, and I feel similarly about them.
Isn't the entirety of the Ynnari releases but three named characters?
harlokin wrote: I sympathise completely, but disagree on the uniqueness of the predicament.
I feel the Ynnari had exactly the same purpose and I feel similarly about them.
What, all three of them?
I think Ynnari are just this strange nexus of ideas which is why 3 years on GW have done nothing with it.
I.E.
Boss guy: "We've got this big campaign coming to lead into 8th. RG is going to be the eventual big reveal for nu-Marines - but it can't be all Imperial stuff all the time."
Model guy: "What about Eldar?"
Sales guy: "They are so hot right now."
Fluff guy: "We've been hinting at this Death God for about a decade or something, maybe we could push forward with that?"
Rules guy: "Also I've been thinking how everyone's whinging about how Eldar are all Wraithknight this, Scatbikes that. Wouldn't be cool if we could have rules that encourage assault? Maybe as stuff dies infantry units can get buffed, so we discourage just spamming vehicles too."
Sales guy: "Isn't CWE pigeonholing us? We do still want the 6 people still playing DE and the new Harlequins to buy it as well."
Models guy: "Yeah. I was thinking we could go with this sort of Pan-Eldar idea. You know, sort of Phoenix Lord meets Commoragh chic. I've got this idea for a gothic female elf with a fan and a sword..."
Fluff Guy: "Lady Malys?"
Models Guy/Rules Guy/Boss Guy: "Who?"
Fluff Guy: "Dark Eldar character."
Sales Guy: "Dark Eldar? No one buys them."
Rules Guy: "Also we are removing 3 more of their codex entries in the next codex."
Boss Guy: "No no no. We can't have that. Make her someone else."
Fluff Guy: "okay..."
Boss Guy: "Yeah. Anyway 3 characters, usable by all the Eldar factions, some must buy new rules. Get it done."
Since 8th was originally planned to be a harder reset of the setting alongside AOS lines and from scraps of information we know coming from inside GW, Ynnari were at one point intended to be a replacement for CWE. With the major releases for the army in the 10's being almost entirely Wraith-focused it's highly likely that it would have become a Wraith-focused army in the 8th we never got, with the Ynnari characters being the main leaders for it. Like AOS 1.0 this version of the game was probably intended to have smaller model lines, basically by taking certain unit types from old armies and stretching them thin to try and make an entire faction out of them. This would leave GW with an army full of recent sculpts, a much more copyrightable name and no need or responsibility to update 20 year old models because they wouldn't exist anymore.
Of course the departure of Kirby and initial reaction to AOS changed pretty much all of these plans, but at that point Guilliman, Primaris Marines and the Ynnari characters were all already finalized and couldn't be changed much. This has left Ynnari in an awkward situation where now I don't think GW really knows what to do with them but I think in terms of them being a replacement for CWE is not going to happen at this point.
I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.
Bosskelot wrote: Since 8th was originally planned to be a harder reset of the setting alongside AOS lines and from scraps of information we know coming from inside GW, Ynnari were at one point intended to be a replacement for CWE. With the major releases for the army in the 10's being almost entirely Wraith-focused it's highly likely that it would have become a Wraith-focused army in the 8th we never got, with the Ynnari characters being the main leaders for it. Like AOS 1.0 this version of the game was probably intended to have smaller model lines, basically by taking certain unit types from old armies and stretching them thin to try and make an entire faction out of them. This would leave GW with an army full of recent sculpts, a much more copyrightable name and no need or responsibility to update 20 year old models because they wouldn't exist anymore.
Of course the departure of Kirby and initial reaction to AOS changed pretty much all of these plans, but at that point Guilliman, Primaris Marines and the Ynnari characters were all already finalized and couldn't be changed much. This has left Ynnari in an awkward situation where now I don't think GW really knows what to do with them but I think in terms of them being a replacement for CWE is not going to happen at this point.
developing them as their own army seems the logical thing to do. have the ynnari start having their own "unit with swords" instead of just using howling banshees and incubii
I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.
And now they've stalled (continued to stall) on doing anything of substance with any eldar army, the worst of all possible solutions.
If they'd kept the model lines intact, I could have lived with a Ynnari blanket over everything. But instead that turned into a big load of nothing, and now were staring down a DE codex with (apparently) nothing attached to it but a special character.
I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.
And now they've stalled (continued to stall) on doing anything of substance with any eldar army, the worst of all possible solutions.
If they'd kept the model lines intact, I could have lived with a Ynnari blanket over everything. But instead that turned into a big load of nothing, and now were staring down a DE codex with (apparently) nothing attached to it but a special character.
Quite true, but it's not the faction that I choose to play. I'd rather the status quo, than my faction being replaced by 'new and improved Aeldari'.
catbarf wrote: The whole 'old Marines are too bloated so need to be squatted so GW can start clean with Primaris' argument would be a lot more compelling if Primaris weren't already on a fast-track to bloat from the constant stream of releases. In some ways they're already worse.
Reivers, Incusors, and Infiltrators all uncomfortably occupy the niche once reserved to just Scouts. The number of bolt weapons alone available to Primaris eclipses the total number of weapons firstborn Marines used to have. Three different kinds of basic bolter, three different kinds of plasma cannon, three different Storm Speeders.
Even GW can't keep it straight, judging by the references to weapons that don't exist on the Heavy Intercessor datasheet.
Yeah, this. Primaris ARE the bloat. Is this a good time to bring up the ridiculous list of bolt weapons they bring?
Agreed. Look at Firstborn and, prior to the beginning of the bloat in 7th with things like the Hunter and Stalker, you see a logic in the army structure and a fairly restricted arsenal. Firstborn have 3 basic squads, a close combat and a shooting veteran squad, scouts and Terminators. They maybe started goinga bit overboard with Honour Guard Command Squads but it was nowhere near as bad as Primaris.
Take Scouts as an example. The Firstborn scout squad has effectively been replaced by 3 separate units: Incursors, Infiltrators and Eliminators. And those three units have three different bolt weapons between them, plus a special sniper rifle and a unique anti-tank weapon. The new Storm Speeders are similar, boasting two different missile launchers, and unique weapons on each of them. Compare that to something like a Predator or Land Speeder. They have maybe one unique weapon but are otherwise equipped with standard weapons from the SM armoury.
If you're looking to reduce bloat from the SM Codex Primaris would be the ideal place to start.
I don't think hatred marines receive is disproportional. Perhaps for individual chapters, sure.
Marines get more. Its not debatable. At least not at the moment. They get less as you subdivide, but compared to, say, eldar? Yeah i'm picking eldar because obviously its a cherry pick, but look at their model range. Look at their rules. Marine lovin is step 1, next step is: every other army lovin. I would like to see that. Bar necrons because they're released already and they're not sm so they're npcs. With big angry-anti-marine guns. That's an idea, instead of angry marines how about angry necrons? They have personalities now, right?
I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.
And now they've stalled (continued to stall) on doing anything of substance with any eldar army, the worst of all possible solutions.
If they'd kept the model lines intact, I could have lived with a Ynnari blanket over everything. But instead that turned into a big load of nothing, and now were staring down a DE codex with (apparently) nothing attached to it but a special character.
Hey, hey, hey, GW has far more important things to work on than Eldar updates.
Those SoB baby-carriers don't design themselves, you know.
Gw doesn't care about some armies. They only started caring about sisters due to new wave political opinions. Don't think for a second if those opinions stopped that gw would keep caring about sisters. They'd have to wait 15 years for new releases again if that happened or just get squatted.
Dark eldar don't have it as bad as sisters used to but we are one of the lesser cared for armies by gw. We don't get new units or weapons for those units though. I want anything at all to be excited about new dark eldar units and kits while marines just get everything they could ever want and more.
Orks got some units but some of that was limited. Honestly at this point if you don't play imperium and esp. If it's one of the older factions then gw won't give your armies new units. Eldar and tau have gotten more new unit love than dark eldar and some other factions. I'm this close to getting gsc or admech just because they at least get new units so theres something to be excited for at least. The problem being gsc suck right now far as ive heard. I dunno where admech are. Hopefully theyre good.
Salt donkey wrote: As the title says I am certain that most people hate marines right now simply because they are GW’s main cash cow. I’d argue their rules were too good pre-9th codex, but right now people are complaining mainly because marines get disproportionate amount of release and are Omni-present in play groups. How am I certain of this? Codex deathguard.
Spoiler:
To put it bluntly this codex is insanely OP, yet next to no one is talking about this fact. On this forum right now the main discussion surrounding the codex comes from GW stripping away deathguard options. While an important conversation that 40k consumers need to have, this is the type of board that is normally extremely first to cry “OP” instead. In fact outside of Mortarion, few have even mentioned how powerful deathguard units are. Our terminators have T5, -1 D, and a 4++, and pay little for these insane defenses as a quick example of this fact.,Yet, I have not seen a thread complaining about them.
Remember when eradicators where previewed? It was non-stop complaining thread after thread. Heck even when outrider bikes got previewed people were aghast that space marines could get a 4w, T5, bike with 6 attacks. And their only 45 points to!? How can any army compete against the terror of outrider bikes?!
Yes marines where extremely OP with the 2.0 release, but that codex is gone. So why are people still complaining about marines then? As the title suggests simply because they are the golden goose that gets showered with releases and is played by everyone. This makes marines an ideal target for...
A- Salty veterans who are tired of seeing marines get updated instead of their own army.
B) People who are forced to play marines in most of their games.
C) Casuals/new players who naturally get beaten by their friends marines because marines are a noob crusher army.
D) People who barely/never play, but enjoy complaining about 40k and therefore need a scapegoat to get triggered by.
The problem with all these viewpoints is all are biased against judging marines power level fairly. It gets especially bad once you start mixing them together. But for those of us who a want a balanced and fun 40k, these kind of viewpoints simply muddy the water and therefore hinder useful changes.
So are marines unfairly judged based on GW’s treatment of them, or am I wrong and they are as OP as dakka suggests?
At risk of sounding slightly like I'm after an Echo Chamber here, I'm gonna say people hate more of the attention than the rules at this point.
Take yesterday & today (Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th) - Out of all of the reveals about 40k this weekend, Space Marines were 7 of them:
- Heavy Intercessors + Heavy Intercessor Captain (by itself, their 6th Troop choice AND their 4th varient of NON-NAMED Just Primaris captain model) [And is half of a hideously unbalanced box to boot]
- Multipart kits for two units up for preorder
- The next Codex Supplement: DA - Start Collecting Dark Angels
- And the Superspeeder
That is 7/11 40k releases
On top of this we have:
- a unit of updated necron models and a decent character model [the other half of said atrociously balanced box, terrain be damned unless it has fortification rules]
- another Necron Character (the one less well received)
- and the Nundams.
And the above ratio is *low* in comparison to some of the heavier updates
When you take a consistent 60% minimum of all releases being Loyalist Astartes (usually blue just to insult the rest of them as well - but thats a different debate)
Now, I'll admit I like many others have built Space Marine forces, one for HH, and two specific lists for a single project that wont grow anymore. My hatred for the codex more than half my models come from is that it holds 7 fewer Pages of Just Rules in the Core Book than my necron codex has PAGES.
The difference should you wish to validate is 113 units in the core SM book (of which 6 were still unreleased as units to themselves, 2 of which are still unavailable alone after this weekend), versus total pages in print including all lore and full page art pieces of the Necron codex tallying at 120.
Add to THAT infernal figure, that of those 113 pages, at least 80% managed to escape with CORE, whereas again Necrons got stuck with a whopping 5 UNITS. Pardon me using Necrons as the benchmark, but I know the most about them.
I dont think people have had a serious complaint about marines' rules since 9th landed and the three power pillars of codex SM were addressed. I, like a few others, do not feel bad about taking my marines along to friendly games anymore, as I dont win my codex default anymore, which makes a healthier game overall. But holy feth, the favouritism is getting stupidly hard to stomach, no matter how much better balanced anything is.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Gw doesn't care about some armies. They only started caring about sisters due to new wave political opinions. Don't think for a second if those opinions stopped that gw would keep caring about sisters. They'd have to wait 15 years for new releases again if that happened or just get squatted.
lmao
More likely a faction at GW got hyped about SoB after literal decades of a low-key puttering demand and combined it with their new model designing tech after the risk they took with revamping the Dark Eldar paid off. A lot of design at GW is about what designers feel hype about. The importance of internal hype is why we have the term "Squatting" in the first place.
Xenomancers wrote: All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.
Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.
Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.
Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.
Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.
Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...
LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.
Couldn't it be that marines are so easy to play and overpowered that a thread in which players discuss about tactics is actually pointless?
That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.
Also possible - just a theory.
And also the existence of explicitly marine-centered forums like Bolter and Chainsword while Dakka is Ork themed.
Salt donkey wrote: As the title says I am certain that most people hate marines right now simply because they are GW’s main cash cow. I’d argue their rules were too good pre-9th codex, but right now people are complaining mainly because marines get disproportionate amount of release and are Omni-present in play groups. How am I certain of this? Codex deathguard.
Spoiler:
To put it bluntly this codex is insanely OP, yet next to no one is talking about this fact. On this forum right now the main discussion surrounding the codex comes from GW stripping away deathguard options. While an important conversation that 40k consumers need to have, this is the type of board that is normally extremely first to cry “OP” instead. In fact outside of Mortarion, few have even mentioned how powerful deathguard units are. Our terminators have T5, -1 D, and a 4++, and pay little for these insane defenses as a quick example of this fact.,Yet, I have not seen a thread complaining about them.
Remember when eradicators where previewed? It was non-stop complaining thread after thread. Heck even when outrider bikes got previewed people were aghast that space marines could get a 4w, T5, bike with 6 attacks. And their only 45 points to!? How can any army compete against the terror of outrider bikes?!
Yes marines where extremely OP with the 2.0 release, but that codex is gone. So why are people still complaining about marines then? As the title suggests simply because they are the golden goose that gets showered with releases and is played by everyone. This makes marines an ideal target for...
A- Salty veterans who are tired of seeing marines get updated instead of their own army.
B) People who are forced to play marines in most of their games.
C) Casuals/new players who naturally get beaten by their friends marines because marines are a noob crusher army.
D) People who barely/never play, but enjoy complaining about 40k and therefore need a scapegoat to get triggered by.
The problem with all these viewpoints is all are biased against judging marines power level fairly. It gets especially bad once you start mixing them together. But for those of us who a want a balanced and fun 40k, these kind of viewpoints simply muddy the water and therefore hinder useful changes.
So are marines unfairly judged based on GW’s treatment of them, or am I wrong and they are as OP as dakka suggests?
At risk of sounding slightly like I'm after an Echo Chamber here, I'm gonna say people hate more of the attention than the rules at this point.
Take yesterday & today (Saturday 23rd & Sunday 24th) - Out of all of the reveals about 40k this weekend, Space Marines were 7 of them:
- Heavy Intercessors + Heavy Intercessor Captain (by itself, their 6th Troop choice AND their 4th varient of NON-NAMED Just Primaris captain model) [And is half of a hideously unbalanced box to boot]
- Multipart kits for two units up for preorder
- The next Codex Supplement: DA - Start Collecting Dark Angels
- And the Superspeeder
That is 7/11 40k releases
On top of this we have:
- a unit of updated necron models and a decent character model [the other half of said atrociously balanced box, terrain be damned unless it has fortification rules]
- another Necron Character (the one less well received)
- and the Nundams.
And the above ratio is *low* in comparison to some of the heavier updates
When you take a consistent 60% minimum of all releases being Loyalist Astartes (usually blue just to insult the rest of them as well - but thats a different debate)
Now, I'll admit I like many others have built Space Marine forces, one for HH, and two specific lists for a single project that wont grow anymore. My hatred for the codex more than half my models come from is that it holds 7 fewer Pages of Just Rules in the Core Book than my necron codex has PAGES.
The difference should you wish to validate is 113 units in the core SM book (of which 6 were still unreleased as units to themselves, 2 of which are still unavailable alone after this weekend), versus total pages in print including all lore and full page art pieces of the Necron codex tallying at 120.
Add to THAT infernal figure, that of those 113 pages, at least 80% managed to escape with CORE, whereas again Necrons got stuck with a whopping 5 UNITS. Pardon me using Necrons as the benchmark, but I know the most about them.
I dont think people have had a serious complaint about marines' rules since 9th landed and the three power pillars of codex SM were addressed. I, like a few others, do not feel bad about taking my marines along to friendly games anymore, as I dont win my codex default anymore, which makes a healthier game overall. But holy feth, the favouritism is getting stupidly hard to stomach, no matter how much better balanced anything is.
Rant over
So... you're complaining that minis we've known about since October of 2021 are finally getting a release date?
As a Marine player yeah I hate these long drawn out releases too dude. I for one would have liked GW to just put out our fething models with our fething codex.
You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"
the_scotsman wrote: You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"
not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud
still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...
BrianDavion wrote:
So... you're complaining that minis we've known about since October of 2021 are finally getting a release date?
As a Marine player yeah I hate these long drawn out releases too dude. I for one would have liked GW to just put out our fething models with our fething codex.
Not Online!!! wrote:
still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...
Honestly, you're both right.
Brian, I would have absolutely preferred the entire release at once. It would have made so much more sense.
NotOnline, I agree entirely that the the prolonged rollout is making it unbearable.
However, you take both of those together, you see that the marines are spread out over multiple different releases to hide the fact they get legitimately three times the units of anyone else at all.
No matter which side of the fence you fall on, you gotta admit it's favouritism at this point.
no i get you, heck check my sig, the favouritism is an issue...have been way to long on the reciving end of getting 0 bones thrown my factions way.
if i'd have gotten for that faction just 1/10th in updates sm got it might very well be very alive and well, instead of not even existing anymore.
GW's release schedule is also there to create artificial unhappyness. The fact that they insist that rules updates for factions don't happen at the same time as corerules changes and have a timetable screams issues gallore, ask any ork player during early and mid 8th for the wait to their dex, or GSC for that matter whith how screwy their dex is right now due to CP issues and limitations applied to them...
i also think it starts to become unhealthy for the game, as it turns more and more into 30k but worse as balance is not for everyone and the rules are meh compared to it.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Gw doesn't care about some armies. They only started caring about sisters due to new wave political opinions. Don't think for a second if those opinions stopped that gw would keep caring about sisters. They'd have to wait 15 years for new releases again if that happened or just get squatted.
.
I have a feeling inside that more important then politics where numbers they saw. First of how many people wanted them, then how many and how fast the big boxs went, then how fast the regular boxs got sold.
No matter which side of the fence you fall on, you gotta admit it's favouritism at this point.
It is not favouritism when you are the one bringing in money. Being offended that marines get new stuff over other armies, is like female sportsman being angry that they do not rake in the same money as the males do. In the end GW would have never made primaris in one or even two goes. There are multiple marine codex, and each needs at least one new model coming with the codex. And from what they have seen with AoS, I don't think anyone at GW wanted to see marine players get angry and possibly not buy new models. Sooner or later all marines model are going to have some sort of primaris version, maybe some unit will be split in to two or even three, like scouts wear. And GW does like to take one kit, and turn each weapon load out in to a separate unit. They even do it with weapons, each basic primaris unit will till the end of time have an assault, rapid fire and heavy gun to pick from.
Karol, that assumes that other factions wouldn't bring in the money if they would get more ressources, a claim that is highly debatable as you yourself can see with the sisters update.
Karol wrote: Being offended that marines get new stuff over other armies, is like female sportsman being angry that they do not rake in the same money as the males do.
I mean, considering that females and males don't compete against each other. The best Males and the best Females should both make the same amount of money, with a proportional trickle downs as you go down the rankings. And your argument assumes that other factions wouldnt sell if they had similar support as marines.
It doesn't matter how much any other army brings in. SoB units are only bought by SoB players, Orks are only played by orks etc.
Most of the marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of marines. The ability to outsell other faction is always there.
Marines are the past, potatoes, wheat, corn, pick what ever is the basic ingridient of food in your country. there is no outselling that. Doesn't mean, that other armies can't be succesful or not from GW point of view.
no you got a point tycho, covid didn't help, but the primaris range long before was beeing overly updated for no reason at all.
I however also get the frustration for marine players beeing stuck in the know about units that as of yet have to show up , which is frustrating, just not as frsutrating as knowing nothing about if your faction will ever reenter the game as a faction or getting actual releases for it to replace american drinking age models.
Most of the Marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of Marines because GW makes rules for multiple armies of Marines.
Can you imagine if Ulthwe got their own supplement? They have units that are different enough - the Black Guardians of Ulthwe can be as different as they want from regular guardians. Sam Hainn could get the Hounds of Mo'Kai, anti-psyker bikers; just slap them in like the Hounds of Mokai the spacewolves got.
You could release a supplement for the Tallarn, giving them some new light armor units like the STEG from 40k lore, or a supplement for the Mordians and Praetorians in a single book that includes some new datasheets like units with their lasguns dialed up in power but down in Rate of Fire, to represent "laslocks".
Oh, wait, no, they had to remove the Tallarn, Mordian, and Praetorian ranges and reduce Black Guardians to a stratagem. Y'know, to make more time to design space marine rules and units.
Karol wrote: It doesn't matter how much any other army brings in. SoB units are only bought by SoB players, Orks are only played by orks etc.
Most of the marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of marines. The ability to outsell other faction is always there.
Marines are the past, potatoes, wheat, corn, pick what ever is the basic ingridient of food in your country. there is no outselling that. Doesn't mean, that other armies can't be succesful or not from GW point of view.
i wonder why there is more marine players when they are featured in every single boxset and are always shown as kicking the ass of the other factions in promotional stuff.
If GW treated each faction the same way, more people would play non-marines armies.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Most of the Marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of Marines because GW makes rules for multiple armies of Marines.
Can you imagine if Ulthwe got their own supplement? They have units that are different enough - the Black Guardians of Ulthwe can be as different as they want from regular guardians. Sam Hainn could get the Hounds of Mo'Kai, anti-psyker bikers; just slap them in like the Hounds of Mokai the spacewolves got.
You could release a supplement for the Tallarn, giving them some new light armor units like the STEG from 40k lore, or a supplement for the Mordians and Praetorians in a single book that includes some new datasheets like units with their lasguns dialed up in power but down in Rate of Fire, to represent "laslocks".
Oh, wait, no, they had to remove the Tallarn, Mordian, and Praetorian ranges and reduce Black Guardians to a stratagem. Y'know, to make more time to design space marine rules and units.
back when the hounds did show up, i argued that the rules for it would've been better off split appart and added to a whole slew of other units instead of a slight variant for added £$CHF ontop of a reiver squad.
It fit Khorne berzerkers better, as would it have sisters and a whole slew of other units. and yet it HAD to be a reiver unit, one of the SM units that didn't even sell.
no you got a point tycho, covid didn't help, but the primaris range long before was beeing overly updated for no reason at all.
I however also get the frustration for marine players beeing stuck in the know about units that as of yet have to show up , which is frustrating, just not as frsutrating as knowing nothing about if your faction will ever reenter the game as a faction or getting actual releases for it to replace american drinking age models.
I couldn't get the quote function to work right (for the post you're quoting), needed to edit the post and accidentally pasted in something from a different thread upon editing. So I deleted that, but the point I was TRYING to make is that Brian never saw a marine problem he couldn't justify, and that, while I'm willing to give SOME blame to covid for more recent issues, the "covid" problem ignores the fact that the current release issues began well ahead of quarantine/lockdowns, etc.
So saying "You're upset that a model we've known about since October 2021 is getting a release date" is more than a little disingenuous.
It's like I said in a different thread - I'm a marine player, AND I actually like a lot of the Primaris stuff. That said - all those slightly different unit entries, the three different gladiator variants, really any of the data sheet clutter that's been introduced to that codex - that would all look better as updated plastic Aspect Warriors, new IG troops, Asdrubael Vect, etc etc. imo. We've had more than enough toys doled out since 2017. Let's get on with the other armies now.
Sisters of battle full model range relaunch, including upcoming releases that have been previewed, not including the couple promotional models:
17 kits.
Primaris marines new kits, all released alongside all existing marine units rather than as replacements, not including any kits for marine subfactions that have been historically given their own codex books (Again no promos so allllllllllll the promo lieutenants arent in this number):
44 kits.
GK players apologia I find the funniest because they take so personally every slight to their beloved GK except when it's made increasingly obvious that the entire reason they're being kept artificially terrible right now is because they're the one faction GW has no interest in moving over to primaris, so they're just desperately trying as hard as they can to passive-aggress every GK player on the planet into picking up Primaris Marines instead.
GW: "Look, here's a shiny new siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilver primaris marines chapter in a white dwarf, incidentally we've decided not to update GK and GK alone among all the loyalist marines to W2 cant imagine why, also another dozen new primaris kits coming up"
GK players: "Yes harder daddy please more I will be your stalwart guardian and defender"
The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.
The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.
This is the biggest thing IMO. I mean, I don't think it's going to get so bad that there are literally no non-marine players left, but this much of a lopsided, lengthy, and darn near constant release isn't good for the long term health of the game. GW has always looked for short-term profits over long-term gains, and, barring 7th and the AoS launch, they've typically been successful with this, but there is a limit.
When you're being seen to focus too heavily for too long on one faction, that's not great. When you're being seen to focus too heavily for too long on one faction, at the expense of other factions, that's really bad.
Yeah. I mean seriously, in terms of rules support my 30k non-marine armies feel better supported relative to marines than my 40k non-marine armies. And 30k is memed as the "marines only" game.
Yeah. I mean seriously, in terms of rules support my 30k non-marine armies feel better supported relative to marines than my 40k non-marine armies. And 30k is memed as the "marines only" game.
This is especially frightening when you consider the relative lack of support 30k as a whole has received lately, and illustrates the point very well I think.
the_scotsman wrote: GK players apologia I find the funniest because they take so personally every slight to their beloved GK except when it's made increasingly obvious that the entire reason they're being kept artificially terrible right now is because they're the one faction GW has no interest in moving over to primaris, so they're just desperately trying as hard as they can to passive-aggress every GK player on the planet into picking up Primaris Marines instead.
GW: "Look, here's a shiny new siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilver primaris marines chapter in a white dwarf, incidentally we've decided not to update GK and GK alone among all the loyalist marines to W2 cant imagine why, also another dozen new primaris kits coming up"
GK players: "Yes harder daddy please more I will be your stalwart guardian and defender"
The thing is despite GW's claim its not happening, you know the Primarisification of GK is inevitable.
I guess they are still weighing up whether its "yeah, you can take psychic Intercessors now, isn't it great" or actually doing a new kit, which is basically just... Intercessors but this time with Force Halberds.
Making primaris GK is a big investment of time and money, and someone has to write rules that won't make them dead on arrival. Now GK are no where near metal SoBs in popularity. But do not have a lot of players which GW could upset, if GW were to make nu GK good, old GK bad. So in a way, from GW point of view this is good.
Still rather risky to do, specially if there is no one in the studio that has any idea what to do with primaris GKs, other then give each intercessor class model a power sword and let the GK player take 2 librarians for each HQ slot.
the_scotsman wrote: You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"
not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud
still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...
Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.
flamingkillamajig wrote: The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.
I am not sure about that. There are multiple different marine factions, and they make different builds with different units, ending with the armies being played in a different way. I don't think that playing the same carbo copy tau or harli list is much less comparing to that. Unless of course we assume that xeno and non marines armies should all have multiple valid builds out of a single codex. This situation kind of a makes it rather unfun for marine players, who make up the majority of all players, eldar in 8th had their Inari book where it could rather practicaly anything and it worked. It was not a fun time to be a marine player, because it required marines player to build tournament lists for casual games to come even close to the power. And how fun to play tau were for marines, pre codex 2.0, I think everyone knows.
flamingkillamajig wrote: The problem with space marine favoritism by gw is it can get to a point where people are only playing marines or what's really powerful and that's not fun. If everybody is playing marines that just sounds boring. Even if you're a marine player what's the point without some xenos to smash every so often.
I am not sure about that. There are multiple different marine factions, and they make different builds with different units, ending with the armies being played in a different way. I don't think that playing the same carbo copy tau or harli list is much less comparing to that. Unless of course we assume that xeno and non marines armies should all have multiple valid builds out of a single codex. This situation kind of a makes it rather unfun for marine players, who make up the majority of all players, eldar in 8th had their Inari book where it could rather practicaly anything and it worked. It was not a fun time to be a marine player, because it required marines player to build tournament lists for casual games to come even close to the power. And how fun to play tau were for marines, pre codex 2.0, I think everyone knows.
the_scotsman wrote: You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"
not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud
still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...
Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.
the model bit, i can understand, the rules though are a WHOLE other issue for a company with online logistics established... that one is just there to manufacture discontent and frustration i feel
Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.
That sounds like a problem GW created for itself. I'm not going to argue that they should have dumped every Primaris release at once, but they would know better than any of us how many Primaris models they were going to make (or, at least, how many they had planned), and if it's a large number of kits they would be the ones who could decide to bend/break their self-imposed release limitations to prevent the current Marine fatigue. And yes, doing so could cause Marine players to be overwhelmed, and non-Marine players would certainly still get Marine fatigue (the core issue being the amount of time and effort given to Primaris rather than other factions, not just the fact that it's taking so fething long to get them all out), but at the very least they would have gotten it done and out of the way and whatever other work the design teams were doing would get out that much sooner.
And what nerf those were, one after another. And it only stopped being played when GW litteraly killed the codex with a WD one, at the end of the edition. Yeah after it was dead and no one played it, in deed no one was using it to run what ever they want. But when before that, everything was run out of it. Every nerf GW divined in their HQ, just ment that eldar either started running something else then just flocks and reapers, the fewer reapers, then shining spears, and then flyer lists.
Karol wrote: It doesn't matter how much any other army brings in. SoB units are only bought by SoB players, Orks are only played by orks etc.
Most of the marine units GW makes can be used by multiple armies of marines. The ability to outsell other faction is always there.
Marines are the past, potatoes, wheat, corn, pick what ever is the basic ingridient of food in your country. there is no outselling that. Doesn't mean, that other armies can't be succesful or not from GW point of view.
Marines are only bought by Marine players.
You're basically just saying "Shoes are bought by people who wear shoes".
You're basically just saying "Shoes are bought by people who wear shoes".
No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.
And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.
No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.
As a marine player, I once argued so hard that (ignoring GK, DW etc) Space Wolves were possibly the only army different enough to truly deserve their own full and separate codex that the thread eventually got locked.
That said, for the purposes of the model releases, a lot of the differences you are trying to call out don't really matter. Both of those armies can use Intercessors. Both of those armies can use Gladiators, both of those armies can use Aggressors, etc etc. You might have a point if we were complaining about guys on wolves (which ONLY SW can use) but that's not really the point being made. The fact is, GW has structured the Primaris stuff so that it fits with every chapter now.
And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.
No army has ever, in the history of GW, seen a release schedule the length of the current marine schedule. It is literally laughable at this point (and I'm saying this as a marine player). No one has said "other armies would sell just as well", but the problem is, GW ignores lines for literal YEARS and then says "we don't work on them because they don't sell", while completely missing the fact that if they DID work on that faction, it would begin selling again. It's not that marines get more releases than anyone else (this will always be the case and is fine being that they are the cash cow), it's that we've gotten to a point where they are being worked on to the general detriment of other armies.
No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.
They are the same army. 95% of their units are legitimately the same units with a different paint scheme. Space Wolves are probably the most different SM army in the game and that is mostly due to the wolves/cavalry and werewolves.
Saying they are different armies is the same as saying that these Blue painted Orkz are a totally different army than these black painted orkz. Yeah they have a different name but they are the same models.
Karol wrote: And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.
I doubt anyone thinks any other faction would sell "as well" as Marines. Mostly because Marines are without a doubt the poster boy for GW and are the de facto "heroes" of 40k. But ironically your own argument/example proves you incredibly wrong almost immediately.
"it was really easy to build xeno armies" no, but lets take a look.
GW introduces riptides, Tau players go from a small xeno faction to one of the most heavily played tournament armies. People show up to events with "Triptides" 3+ riptides. On top of that, Tau were still; a relatively "new" army in general but they received a LOT of support in that time frame and TONS of models were sold. So GW made some decent money on releasing a good model with good rules.
Eldar in 7th were great as well, but what new kits did they get? windriders, farseer on jetbike and a couple others...how well did those sell? incredibly well. So why didn't the army sell really well? because nobody wanted models older than they were, but the new ones sold really well. So GW made money on the models they did release, but not the army as a whole because they had few real updates. Those that did get updates and good rules sold really well.
Orkz: arguably one of the worst armies in the game in 7th. We finally got some new kitz, Naughts and Mek Gunz. Those sold well, but the army didn't do very well in general for sales or play...because the rules were utter garbage plus the unreasonably high barrier to entrance which meant new players didn't want to start orkz (to get minimum 3 full troops choices was $300+). I mean literally fighting for worst in the game, and the keystone unit "naughts" were just worse versions of Imperial Knights. So The hardcore ork players bought a naught or two and maybe couple of mek gunz, but GW didn't really make any money because the army is hard to play, hard to build, expensive to build and the rules were garbage. *Fun Fact: Ork players tend to buy 1 Mek gun and than using all our bitz turn it into 3 because the model itself is MASSIVELY over priced money wise.
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition. Hell, sticking with 7th, how many releases did SM get compared to everyone else?
That said, for the purposes of the model releases, a lot of the differences you are trying to call out don't really matter. Both of those armies can use Intercessors. Both of those armies can use Gladiators, both of those armies can use Aggressors, etc etc. You might have a point if we were complaining about guys on wolves (which ONLY SW can use) but that's not really the point being made. The fact is, GW has structured the Primaris stuff so that it fits with every chapter now.
Exactly.
Primaris armies are different from chapter to chapter just like orks armies are different from klan to klan: they're identical barring one or two characters. The difference between modern SW and modern Ultramarines is that the former can be lead by Ragnar Blackmane, the latter have a bunch of different characters instead. That's it. Anything else, including units' loadouts, is exactly the same.
The difference between standalone chapters and vanilla marines comes from firstborn dedicated units, which are now for (very) casual games only basically. No one complaines about firstborn units because they don't have anything overpowered at the moment.
And what nerf those were, one after another. And it only stopped being played when GW litteraly killed the codex with a WD one, at the end of the edition. Yeah after it was dead and no one played it, in deed no one was using it to run what ever they want. But when before that, everything was run out of it. Every nerf GW divined in their HQ, just ment that eldar either started running something else then just flocks and reapers, the fewer reapers, then shining spears, and then flyer lists.
Ynnari got killed for more than a year. WD came out in may 2019, 9th edition came out in september. And again, not every eldar model was ran in the OP ynnari. I know you've got your head up your ass when it comes to pointy ears but they have more units than : shining spears, skyweavers, ravagers and dark reapers.
Oh, right, i remember the meta where people were freaking out about the OP Ynnari warpspiders/swoopinghawks/wyches/troupes/vypers/etc.
And you're complaining about multiple different things again. Eldar flyers WASNT an ynnari list. Its almost as if people adapted and went for the next good build when ynnari got nerfed.
They are the same army. 95% of their units are legitimately the same units with a different paint scheme. Space Wolves are probably the most different SM army in the game and that is mostly due to the wolves/cavalry and werewolves.
not only that in 9th they can litterally be played from the same codex.
Technically dark eldar only had units cut from our codex since 5th. We lost trueborn, bloodbrides and like 4 to 5 special characters they didn't bother to even make a model for. It's gotten so bad I was thinking about switching to genestealer cult or admech and I heard gsc are also currently low tier. That said gsc and admech at least keep getting new models. I just want a unit to be excited about again. The new lelith model actually looks worse than the old one and they got rid of the awesome praying Mantis pose of drazhar that was so iconic. Vect? He hasn't been around for ages if he ever was. Meanwhile imperial guard and tau have tank commanders and super heavies and marines get a freaking primarch. Forge world is no different. Dark eldar have just 2 models....
This scene from willy wonka and the chocolate factory with charlie is how i feel shame and all.
Technically dark eldar only had units cut from our codex since 5th. We lost trueborn, bloodbrides and like 4 to 5 special characters they didn't bother to even make a model for. It's gotten so bad I was thinking about switching to genestealer cult or admech and I heard gsc are also currently low tier. That said gsc and admech at least keep getting new models. I just want a unit to be excited about again. The new lelith model actually looks worse than the old one and they got rid of the awesome praying Mantis pose of drazhar that was so iconic. Vect? He hasn't been around for ages if he ever was. Meanwhile imperial guard and tau have tank commanders and super heavies and marines get a freaking primarch. Forge world is no different. Dark eldar have just 2 models....
That's the thing that really kills me. Vect had a model! Yeah, it had semi-NSFW female slave models on it that really needed to go, but they couldn't just pull the model for a time, get rid of that part and re-release him? The main leader of a major faction who actually has a strat named after him and HAD a model, is no longer part of the codex ...
Meanwhile "And this is Primaris LT #600. You'll notice the distinctive slant of his gladius - a full .2 degrees more slanted than any other Primaris LT. This really sets him apart and makes him a truly unique member of any Primaris army"
But yes. Marines get hated on because of popularity. That has to be it.
You're basically just saying "Shoes are bought by people who wear shoes".
No, because only non marine players put out the claim that lets say SW and BT are just the same marines. It is shoes being bought by workers, sports people,children, women etc While something like a groin protector is bought by a specific small group of people.
And saying that other factions would sell just as well, if only GW focused on them more, is funny. non marine armies had more OP rules and for longer in 8th ed, and from what people say it was the same in other editions too. yet they never reached the sells marines had. And from stories I heard sometimes it was really easy to build xeno armies. Multiple riptides and some chaff. Multiple jetbikes and eldar tanks. Everything in plastic, and if you really need something not in plastic you can buy resin models from recasters for much cheaper then what GW asks for their stuff.
In terms of models, a sizable portion, even for the chapters I think need their own book, are only different in terms of paint.
We don't know how well the others would do. What we do know though, is that they aren't selling well now because of their neglect. And I should point out, Marines were being pushed heavily back in 3rd edition. Your stories are incorrect. Marines have long been the easiest army to build. Cheapest too.
SemperMortis wrote: [
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition.
2e. Imperial Guard. And I'm NOT counting the fact that there were 5 different regiments sculpted.
SemperMortis wrote: [
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition.
2e. Imperial Guard. And I'm NOT counting the fact that there were 5 different regiments sculpted.
So back in 1993 GW released more new Imperial Guard kits than they did for Space Marines. Can you prove that? there used to be a website that had a rough list of all units released per edition but I can't find it now.
But even taking that at face value, you are saying GW tried it 28ish years ago
Technically dark eldar only had units cut from our codex since 5th. We lost trueborn, bloodbrides and like 4 to 5 special characters they didn't bother to even make a model for. It's gotten so bad I was thinking about switching to genestealer cult or admech and I heard gsc are also currently low tier. That said gsc and admech at least keep getting new models. I just want a unit to be excited about again. The new lelith model actually looks worse than the old one and they got rid of the awesome praying Mantis pose of drazhar that was so iconic. Vect? He hasn't been around for ages if he ever was. Meanwhile imperial guard and tau have tank commanders and super heavies and marines get a freaking primarch. Forge world is no different. Dark eldar have just 2 models....
That's the thing that really kills me. Vect had a model! Yeah, it had semi-NSFW female slave models on it that really needed to go, but they couldn't just pull the model for a time, get rid of that part and re-release him? The main leader of a major faction who actually has a strat named after him and HAD a model, is no longer part of the codex ...
And that Vect was unusable in the 5th ed DE codex (save for maybe representing his personal Raider). Vect in the 5th ed DE codex was on foot, with a whole new array of weapons.
Vect on a throne was retired by GW because they retired the old raider. The same happened to a few ork characters from 2nd edition when GW launched a new line of models for the greenskins as the gorkamorka vibe didn't match the new models aesthetics.
Vect on foot never had a model instead, just like all the other special characters that disappeared through editions.
DE are the pioneers of the no model no rule madness. Orks also lost several characters through editions. One of the most recent ones, Grukk Face-Rippa, only lasted 1 year or so during 7th, then he was squatted and his model became a generic warboss. I don't think there's a another character that is that "young" and already retired .
Blackie wrote: Vect on a throne was retired by GW because they retired the old raider. The same happened to a few ork characters from 2nd edition when GW launched a new line of models for the greenskins as the gorkamorka vibe didn't match the new models aesthetics.
Vect on foot never had a model instead, just like all the other special characters that disappeared through editions.
DE are the pioneers of the no model no rule madness. Orks also lost several characters through editions. One of the most recent ones, Grukk Face-Rippa, only lasted 1 year or so during 7th, then he was squatted and his model became a generic warboss. I don't think there's a another character that is that "young" and already retired .
There was a period where they were debuting characters and gave them names in whatever campaign or WD booklet or whatever they were doing at the time, but they didn't stick. Skaven had something similar, and I believe there a space woof commander that was around for maybe five minutes. A few others too, but but they were about as memorable as whatever I had for dinner two weeks ago.
Unit1126PLL wrote:Yeah. I mean seriously, in terms of rules support my 30k non-marine armies feel better supported relative to marines than my 40k non-marine armies. And 30k is memed as the "marines only" game.
the_scotsman wrote: You know, prior to quarantine I would pretty frequently go see acrobatics shows at the circus training center like a block from my old place, and it's a relief to know I can still log on to Dakka when I'm feeling blue and see people gymnastically backflipping their way over, around and under the point of peoples' posts DESPERATELY contorting their meanings to attempt to respond with the smug internet guy mantra of "So You Agree With Me Then Brah?"
not gonna lie, this made me laugh out loud
still, i get brians issues, personally, i feel the whole primaris update would've been better off as a one and done kinda deal in 2-3 waves and not waves beeing prolonged over whole segments of the editions...partially that is imo indeed the reason as to why the whole primaris stuff looks more like spam nowadays rather then an exciting update to a faction...
Yea, but they're only ever going to put so many models in a release window.
the model bit, i can understand, the rules though are a WHOLE other issue for a company with online logistics established... that one is just there to manufacture discontent and frustration i feel
That's what gets me. Not the models, the rules. Not everyone can have a massive model release, but everyone gets a codex. I can understand the delays for new codexes because of the current global situation, but nothing is stopping gw from fixing some stuff through FAQs and erratas, the same as they fixed For The Greater Good, and the loyalist chapters that were waiting on their new supplements.
Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?
Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books? Or why they can't throw a rules fix or two at Tau and GSC?
It is super odd to me that they can't, at the very least, say "CSM/Rubrics/etc etc" now have 2 wounds and cost X/Y/Z".
EDIT:
In the case of your bog-standard CSM, I still think that second wound, when combined with the points increase, is actually ultimately going to make them worse (especially now that you have an army in the meta that doesn't care about D2 weapons), but the point still stands ... should be a quick easy fix right?
Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books?
Putting such a large errata would require GW to not only plan it 6 months in advance, but also agree that they did something wrong.
In terms of models, a sizable portion, even for the chapters I think need their own book, are only different in terms of paint.
Show me those SW wolf lords in landspeeders, wulfen ultramarines, WS death companies, DA sang guards or IH wolf ridders. They have different rules, unique characters, unique units etc. You can't have a biker apothecary outside of DA. But most important of all. All those space marines had their own book since twice and more my age. If for that long GW thinks they are a separate thing, then they are a separate thing.
We don't know how well the others would do.
But we do. Marines were almost never in a 2.0 8th ed codex state. Other armies were better, and were plastic. Yet they never outsold marines. If they did we would be seeing 2-3 tau books. Eldar probably are closest to that, but considering the rule set they get, they have to have a man on the inside, because there is no way in hell an army gets a broken codex each time it gets on. And it still doesn't outsell marines.
This is again the old vegen "meat" argument. Never tried, but if only we replaced normal meat with it, and gave it the same support, it would clearly beat out meat sells. I think not. Not everything has to be tested to know that it does not work. I don't have to eat glass to know it is not a good thing to eat.
Cheapest too.
You could buy 30 recast dark reapers for less then a quarter of ID box. And that is assuming asking for it to be send by post, and not just going to the guy and picking them up yourself. Plastic scatter bikes or weaven serpents weren't , I assume, supper hard to get either. Neither were, again I assume, those undercosted lord of war. And considering how many riptides are being sold, I think those were not that hard to get either.
I also have my doubts if the base of what was good in marine armies, were push fit tactical marine models. From what I heard the old marines required a lot of tanks, a lot of metal heavy and special weapons etc.
Ynnari got killed for more than a year. WD came out in may 2019, 9th edition came out in september. And again, not every eldar model was ran in the OP ynnari. I know you've got your head up your ass when it comes to pointy ears but they have more units than : shining spears, skyweavers, ravagers and dark reapers.
I don't think it is antomicaly possible to perform the thing you say, without killing oneself. And yes this means for those last few months eldar players had to return to playing their alaitoc lists. What a tragedy. How about you check how long they were good and could play Inari. Broken beyond everything, when they came out in 7th ed, broken through out all 8th till GW killed it. That is years of playing. Compare this to the few months IH players got with their 2.0 book, that supposably was killing w40k. And what is even more fun the Inari thing came after eldar having broken rule sets in 7th, pre Inari, and in 6th too. Now I did not play back then. But when a GW employee says that that may have slightly droped the ball on OP units, by undercosting them by 150-200pts, I find absolutly no understanding for the plight of eldar players. It in fact sound to me like those people sitting on milions, saying how bad they have it in their gigantic mensions.
Saying they are different armies is the same as saying that these Blue painted Orkz are a totally different army than these black painted orkz. Yeah they have a different name but they are the same models.
when blue, red and black orks start getting their exclusive models which make the base of their armies that would be the case. Again there is what 30+ years of history of those mariens having their separate books, and being treated by GW as separate things.
Eldar in 7th were great as well, but what new kits did they get? windriders, farseer on jetbike and a couple others...how well did those sell? incredibly well. So why didn't the army sell really well? because nobody wanted models older than they were, but the new ones sold really well. So GW made money on the models they did release, but not the army as a whole because they had few real updates. Those that did get updates and good rules sold really well.
I am not following your logic. Why would anyone want to buy bad units for an army, when the ones they can easily get make a great army already? I mean besides someone having some compulsive disorder to buy stuff or really being in to painting. But then you have china and russia, even my country. ton of professional recasters making models for cheaper and better then GW. Better molds too, and more resilient resin.
So The hardcore ork players bought a naught or two and maybe couple of mek gunz, but GW didn't really make any money because the army is hard to play, hard to build, expensive to build and the rules were garbage.
From what I have seen if people have those, then they have recasts. And they are actualy easier to get then 10+ boxs no store can order. And good luck to the person who orders it from a webstore.
But lets take it back a step. You claim no army would do as well as Space Marines..but there has literally never been a similar circumstance where any other faction received even half as much attention as the SM line in any edition. Hell, sticking with 7th, how many releases did SM get compared to everyone else?
And again, if armies that had good or even better then sm rules, could not generate sales the same size as marines did. Even when marines had worse rules, then there is no need to check anything. It is already proven that they do not generate the same interest and there for sales.
That said, for the purposes of the model releases, a lot of the differences you are trying to call out don't really matter. Both of those armies can use Intercessors. Both of those armies can use Gladiators, both of those armies can use Aggressors, etc etc. You might have a point if we were complaining about guys on wolves (which ONLY SW can use) but that's not really the point being made. The fact is, GW has structured the Primaris stuff so that it fits with every chapter now.
Does anyone on this forum think, that when GW finishs their basic primaris reset, they are not going to make faction specific units? But hey maybe I am wrong, maybe in 5-6 years there is going to be one books with one marine rule set, and we aren't going to see RG eliminators or rule specific DA bladeguard.
In terms of models, a sizable portion, even for the chapters I think need their own book, are only different in terms of paint.
Show me those SW wolf lords in landspeeders, wulfen ultramarines, WS death companies, DA sang guards or IH wolf ridders. They have different rules, unique characters, unique units etc. You can't have a biker apothecary outside of DA. But most important of all. All those space marines had their own book since twice and more my age. If for that long GW thinks they are a separate thing, then they are a separate thing.
And now GW says that all Chapters, excepting GK, are just Supplements.
Moreover, how many unique units do SW have? Or BA? Or DA? Because they share at least 90 units.
Does anyone on this forum think, that when GW finishs their basic primaris reset, they are not going to make faction specific units? But hey maybe I am wrong, maybe in 5-6 years there is going to be one books with one marine rule set, and we aren't going to see RG eliminators or rule specific DA bladeguard.
Either you're not making sense with your argument here, or you don't get the argument many of us are making (or possibly I'm just misunderstanding you - equally possible).
People have stated that the irritation is that marines have seen an unprecedented string of releases going on over a year at this point. You appear to be trying to say that armies like SW/Templars aren't benefitting from this, but the simple fact its - that's not true. Excluding Grey Knights and possibly DW (I know less than nothing about DW) I can't think of a single Primaris release that SW/Templars, or any of the snowflake chapters are locked out from taking.
And yeah - to your point - it's possible SW may get "Lord Primaris Wolf of his Fenrisian Murder Howler Hover(but not fly) Wolf ". But if that happens, it kind of only continues to increase the problem at hand, rather than decrease it don't you think?
SW players - how many Wolf themed things do you have? All of them? sweet.
Now, everyone who's had the biggest and, (arguably) most important leader from your faction removed from your codex please stand up ... wait - what's that? Marines have had a Primarch ADDED to their codex? Right. You should probably sit down then.
So next check - Who here has both kids who can drink in the U.S. but are still younger than the sculpts in your armies -No no marines - sit down. This one's for Eldar/Guard ....
I could go on all day with these ...
EDIT:
An even better example - even the Marine apologists seem to be able to agree that the Primaris LT thing is just redundant and silly at this point. So, if we can agree that having a boatload of essentially meaningless variants of the exact same thing, for an army that wasn't even really hurting for ANYTHING in the first place is silly ... what do you make of DE finally getting a release and it's ... a new and worse Lilith Hesperax because ... reasons? No keradruahk, no Vect, no new Warrior kit - just - a resculpt of a character that absolutely did not need it. I don't play DE but that HAS to feel like a pretty giant middle finger for the people who do ...
Karol wrote: ...They have different rules, unique characters, unique units etc. You can't have a biker apothecary outside of DA...
Why?
Why can everyone take pistol/chainsword Primaris Troops, but only SW can take pistol/chainsword old-Marine Troops? Why can DA have biker command squads, but White Scars can't? Why do BA have inferno pistols/hand flamers, but Salamanders don't? Is it really balance, or uniqueness, or just a desire to not need to print alternate packaging?
Honestly, is there any better explanation why CSM and GK have to wait for our new codexes for that second wound other than getting us chomping at the bit for those books?
Putting such a large errata would require GW to not only plan it 6 months in advance, but also agree that they did something wrong.
They plan everything at least six months in advance. They've already said CSM and GK are getting a second (and third, in the case of terminators), so it's already planned, and it isn't a mistake.
