Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
@Lance845

I can understand that stance too. There is a loyalist space marine datasheet bloat issue that is probably going to have to be resolved eventually. The known Primaris units are extremely unlikely to be the last. Which with each new unit pushing at the seams of the Codex: Space Marines further to the breaking point.

Again, I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.

I don't want to see Firstborn marine players have their armies put into Legends, have to find workarounds like using Primaris datasheets, using Codex: Chaos Space Marines or something else. Any more than I want to hear the same old argument to why Primaris space marines are the worst thing to happen to 40k.

Chances are something is going to have to give. That's probably at least three years away. I hope for more, but I can see why someone would hope for less. As someone that has an almost exclusively Primaris army, I think Primaris do stand on their own now. I don't really mind the ways they have been squeezed in the rules nooks and crannies to do the same thing as Firstborn but also not. It really is a nice element, for me, that separates my Primaris army from my Chaos Space Marine army, and it makes Primaris very slightly less than brain-dead easy to play. I also recognize that I am a casual player not particularly concerned with balance so long as the game works in that nebulous area where a group of players don't push too hard on optimization. That of which probably allows for the issue to remain longer than someone more concerned about rules parity. Which Dakka is far more geared toward on average.

I don't think there is any good answers to these issues.

 Eldarain wrote:
...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...

Tell that to the Tomb Kings.

 Eldarain wrote:
...Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...

Tell that to the Tomb Kings.

Tycho wrote:

Tell that to the Tomb Kings.

And the Bretonian players ...

 Eldarain wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...

Tell that to the Tomb Kings.

Nowhere near the same. Though it was criminal to drop them based on their last couple kits being fantastic...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well we know Bretonnia is returning to the land of the living soon...

...Tomb Kings probably as well...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...

Tell that to the Tomb Kings.

Nowhere near the same. Though it was criminal to drop them based on their last couple kits being fantastic...

Tomb King range expansion for 8th was, what, a year before Sigmar dropped and squatted the whole range? When was the last time there was a new loyalist oldmarine kit? (Not counting 30k.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
...The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend...

Tell that to the Tomb Kings.

Nowhere near the same. Though it was criminal to drop them based on their last couple kits being fantastic...

Tomb King range expansion for 8th was, what, a year before Sigmar dropped and squatted the whole range? When was the last time there was a new loyalist oldmarine kit? (Not counting 30k.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Wow. Just double-checked, I'd forgotten how slow the WHFB releases were coming towards the end.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
...Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.

(Russ or Vulkan, surely. In-universe they got almost no Successor Chapters because they were unwise enough to object to Guilliman coming in with his "Codex" and trying to dictate policy to the Astartes on a grand scale.)

 jeff white wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
...Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.

(Russ or Vulkan, surely. In-universe they got almost no Successor Chapters because they were unwise enough to object to Guilliman coming in with his "Codex" and trying to dictate policy to the Astartes on a grand scale.)

Unwise? Or able to see through Cawl’s obvious heresy, and loyal enough to the true emperor to stand for all that is right and just?

 Lance845 wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.

I don't like the idea of Primaris being the only loyalist space marines. I want Firstborn to be around for a good long while (read: never go away) despite the datasheet bloat having both create. At my most selfish, Firstborn provide me with alternate CSM rules should I want them as my CSM army leans away from the Chaos exclusive stuff and toward the more loyalist marine-like stuff. I kinda like having that fallback if the C:CSM ever becomes garbage, or the rules ends up all FUBARed like it is now all over the place since I didn't bother with the revised codex in 8th.

All I can say is that there isn't any indication that Firstborn are being sunsetted 9th edition yet. That should give them at least another 3 years. But I can't say there isn't a Sword of over them. I don't like it any more than you do.

That's also not going to stop me liking Primaris marines either.

I DO like that sword over them and it can't drop soon enough.

Look, this isn't about what any individual likes. In game design some times you spend a lot of time and effort on this really neat element of the game. This really cool mechanic or unit or army that does this thing that you just really love. It has a special place in your heart. And then you look at what impact it has on the game as a whole and you realize... it's a problem. It doesn't make the game better even though you love it on it's own. Worse it drags things down. It layers on consequence after consequence and no mater how you spin the puzzle piece it just doesn't really fit. So you kill your darling for the sake of the project. It happens in movies too. This scene is great but... it's dragging down the movie as a whole. So it goes into the dvd extras and the cutting room floor.

Old marines are that. They are bloated all on their own before primaris ever show up. Their wargear is extensive to an extreme. their units step on each others toes. Do you want jump pack marines or BETTER jump pack marines!? Primaris are the clean slate SM need to get back on track. To fit into the rest of the puzzle. And the longer oldmarines are around the more their design influences the design of the primaris. By influence I mean corrupts it. Primaris should be standing on their own so they can be designed and built to be an army on their own because they ARE an army on their own. And first born just don't fit anymore as a design element. And they definitely don't fit any more now that they are sharing all this space with Primaris. It's time to kill your darling.

 catbarf wrote:
The whole 'old Marines are too bloated so need to be squatted so GW can start clean with Primaris' argument would be a lot more compelling if Primaris weren't already on a fast-track to bloat from the constant stream of releases. In some ways they're already worse.

Reivers, Incusors, and Infiltrators all uncomfortably occupy the niche once reserved to just Scouts. The number of bolt weapons alone available to Primaris eclipses the total number of weapons firstborn Marines used to have. Three different kinds of basic bolter, three different kinds of plasma cannon, three different Storm Speeders.

Even GW can't keep it straight, judging by the references to weapons that don't exist on the Heavy Intercessor datasheet.

 dan2026 wrote:
I find it super frustrating that Space Marines are just finishing their 2nd complete plastic army to replace their 1st complete plastic army.

While Craftworld Eldar still have a ton of models never updated to plastic and a load more that date back to the early 90s!

Its absurd.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Primaris are particularly unique in that they come with the threat that they are replacing a current faction.

I could live with Primaris a lot easier if I knew they weren't intended as a replacement to the army I already have and love. Unfortunately, it's easy to interpret their existence as being intended to replace the former SM line. Furthermore, it appears that the lore is suggesting the same.

So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.

 harlokin wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Primaris are particularly unique in that they come with the threat that they are replacing a current faction.

I could live with Primaris a lot easier if I knew they weren't intended as a replacement to the army I already have and love. Unfortunately, it's easy to interpret their existence as being intended to replace the former SM line. Furthermore, it appears that the lore is suggesting the same.

So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.

I sympathise completely, but disagree on the uniqueness of the predicament.

I feel the Ynnari had exactly the same underlying purpose, and I feel similarly about them.

 harlokin wrote:
I sympathise completely, but disagree on the uniqueness of the predicament.

I feel the Ynnari had exactly the same purpose and I feel similarly about them.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Since 8th was originally planned to be a harder reset of the setting alongside AOS lines and from scraps of information we know coming from inside GW, Ynnari were at one point intended to be a replacement for CWE. With the major releases for the army in the 10's being almost entirely Wraith-focused it's highly likely that it would have become a Wraith-focused army in the 8th we never got, with the Ynnari characters being the main leaders for it. Like AOS 1.0 this version of the game was probably intended to have smaller model lines, basically by taking certain unit types from old armies and stretching them thin to try and make an entire faction out of them. This would leave GW with an army full of recent sculpts, a much more copyrightable name and no need or responsibility to update 20 year old models because they wouldn't exist anymore.

Of course the departure of Kirby and initial reaction to AOS changed pretty much all of these plans, but at that point Guilliman, Primaris Marines and the Ynnari characters were all already finalized and couldn't be changed much. This has left Ynnari in an awkward situation where now I don't think GW really knows what to do with them but I think in terms of them being a replacement for CWE is not going to happen at this point.

 harlokin wrote:
Yes, all three of them.

I believe that it was intended to be an abortive first step to clean up the 'distracting messiness' of seperate Aeldari codexes with product lines that needed significant renewal. The solution was to roll them into a single faction, andr release bigger and better Ynnari models, with rules to render the older stuff irrelevant.