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 Lance845 wrote:
Or a great idea? GW has shown again and again that suckers buy whatever they put out. If they can even put out a similar scaled kit with a 30-50% price increase and suckers eat it up.

GW just doesn't.

Setting aside personal preferences on looks you can't sit there and call Primaris a simply scaled up kit. If that is all people valued we'd all still be using our janky metals.

Can we please stop dropping casual insults towards hobbyists who think differently?

You guys get increasingly annoying.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Marines haven't been king for a bit now, but posts disproportionately attack them or attack people who they think are defending marines. It wasn't that long ago that people complained about how Xenos were the "NPC" and yet the above top 5 is almost nothing but Xenos.

its almost as if were in a pandemic that started when marines were at a high point and people havnt been able to play enough games to see for themselves what the powerlevels currently are and are mostly going from batreps or online discussion.

its almost as if were in a pandemic that started when marines were at a high point and people havnt been able to play enough games to see for themselves what the powerlevels currently are and are mostly going from batreps or online discussion.

It's also like power level is only a fraction of the reason for the annoyance ...

Tycho wrote:

its almost as if were in a pandemic that started when marines were at a high point and people havnt been able to play enough games to see for themselves what the powerlevels currently are and are mostly going from batreps or online discussion.

It's also like power level is only a fraction of the reason for the annoyance ...

also this. Right now the main metric i have to judge marines is the amount of support theyve gotten.

9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Or a great idea? GW has shown again and again that suckers buy whatever they put out. If they can even put out a similar scaled kit with a 30-50% price increase and suckers eat it up.

GW just doesn't.

Setting aside personal preferences on looks you can't sit there and call Primaris a simply scaled up kit. If that is all people valued we'd all still be using our janky metals.

I wasn't actually talking about Primaris. Look at Shadowsun, Ghaz, the new Cryptek/s. GW can release anything, increase the price, and turn a profit. There is an endless stream of rubes that are willing to pay.

'Simply for being popular', no.

Dominating the release schedule, disproportionate rules attention, a long time spent at peak power level, increasingly setting-warping centricity to the writing, and being popular enough that these are all constantly in your face if you play the game at all, sure.

Being popular amplifies all the negative aspects because, well, it makes them more obvious. But they're not disliked simply because they're popular.

also this. Right now the main metric i have to judge marines is the amount of support theyve gotten.

9th launches and we get the Marine - Necrons -Marines - Marines - Marines codexes.

Yeah, like I said before, I think the current 'dex gets more hate than it deserves because there is some needless carry over from the hate of 2.0. The pandemic preventing us from seeing where the new book really sits hasn't helped, but I still think the biggest thing at this point is just the release schedule, and that was happening way before covid so you can't even blame the pandemic ...

I still think the new Marine book is probably better than most of the codexes will be (I think it's better over-all than the Necron dex for sure), but I don't think it's fair to level the same amount of OP complaints at it that 2.0 was getting.

I really believe Marines could be the absolute least played faction, and if they were getting this kind of support, people would still be annoyed, so while the popularity makes it worse, to claim it's the only reason is just silly imo.

Tycho wrote:
Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.

They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.

That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.

Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?

I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tycho wrote:
Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.

They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.

That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.

Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?

I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.

If we went by your logic, that we release proportional to their proportion of the total of all major factions, Around 63% of all releases for 40k should have no Space Marines in them. This is significantly lower in reality, and also is very favourable for the marine side as well.

Space Marines are 40K to me. They are what got me interested in Rogue Trader instead of Battletech and other scifi brands.

Rules-wise, I dont have a prob either. I nerf my marine army on purpose. I'd never spam the most OP units or the most abusive combos, regardless of the army I might play.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tycho wrote:
Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.

They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.

That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.

Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?

I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.

Space marines are one faction out of 25 factions total.

Iron hands
Imperial fist
White scar
Ravenguard
Salamanders
Space wolves
Ultramarines
black templars
Blood angels
Dark angels
Deathwatch

are all a single codex. If you decide to count each of them as a separate faction then you need to add : all the forgeworlds, all the holy orders, all the obsessions, all the craftworlds, etc.

I don't think SM receive a disproportionate amount of hate. They have the lion's share of models and updates, it only makes sense they would get the lion's share of hate over said content.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tycho wrote:
Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.

They don't get near the top without occasionally beating marines. Harlies and Daemons do not have updated codexes and appear quite strong.

That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.

Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?

I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.

Space marines are one faction out of 25 factions total.

Iron hands
Imperial fist
White scar
Ravenguard
Salamanders
Space wolves
Ultramarines
black templars
Blood angels
Dark angels
Deathwatch

are all a single codex. If you decide to count each of them as a separate faction then you need to add : all the forgeworlds, all the holy orders, all the obsessions, all the craftworlds, etc.

They aren't though; codex supplements are a thing. Forge worlds, holy orders, etc don't have those. Not to mention that one SM codex is the size of two xeno ones put together.

They shouldn't be though. Have the Necrons and Death Guard books tried to close the gap on the gulf between an Astartes subfaction and a Dynasty Plague Company etc(Super Doctrine, Relics, Warlord Traits, Strats, Spell Lore etc)

To answer OP, the issue is twofold imho.

1) Marines were disproportionately OP following their second codex in 8th ed. Since half the playerbase plays SM or has a SM army ready to go, this heavily shifs the meta.
They were so disproportionately OP (win rates in the 70%-80% range for Iron Hands at one point) that it simply felt bad. I stopped going to tournaments back then, until covid arrived.
A strong army usually sits around 55% win rate and you feel that (Ynnari were around that, IG Castellan slightly higher). A 70% win rate army that's also very popular it creates problems for the game.
A final note on this point: when there's a strong faction that's also a niche faction (Harlequins, GSC, ...), the issue of it being OP is way less damaging to the game simply because you're way less likely to face them every game. Marines therefore need to be kept in line (max 55% win rate as a rule of thumb) with extra attention, as they usually have been in the past.

2) SM received a complete range update, piecemeal over multiple years. Which is a perfectly fine thing to do and for GW it makes financial sense. The primaris models are nice and well made, for the most part and ignoring a few issues (like limited modelling freedom and lack of dedicated chapter details).
Other factions may receive comparable or even more significant updates (in relative terms to the existing range), but they do so over a much shorter time period.
For example, Necrons received a massive update but only over a few months, so you don't feel like there's a constant stream of new stuff coming out just for them.

The issue here is that the community of non-SM players feel both of these problems at the same time: rules neglect (because of GW's stubborness to balance a game with books in 2020+) and models neglect (ask any Eldar/Tyr/Guard/... player).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They aren't though; codex supplements are a thing. Forge worlds, holy orders, etc don't have those. Not to mention that one SM codex is the size of two xeno ones put together.

every chapter i listed is playable with only the basic SM codex (except Deathwatch i think). Supplements aren't codexes, they're bonuses (DLC) that some subfactions get.
Just because the Codex is bloated doesn't mean its justified to keep feeding them new units/rules, on the contrary.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Space marines are one faction out of 25 factions total.

Iron hands
Imperial fist
White scar
Ravenguard
Salamanders
Space wolves
Ultramarines
black templars
Blood angels
Dark angels
Deathwatch

are all a single codex. If you decide to count each of them as a separate faction then you need to add : all the forgeworlds, all the holy orders, all the obsessions, all the craftworlds, etc.

I don't agree or disagree, really. It comes down how you want to look at it. For me White Scars play differently than Ultramarines than Blood Angels than BT than DA etc - even if they are all power armor.

And it becomes more about how many players you can service on a single release. Few marines care about Khan getting a new model, but most of them would be likely to consider Heavy Intercessors.

Are the marines releases out or proportion for a type of army that covers 11 ( GK excluded ) out of the 30 major factions that will also be more popular with first timers than something like Harlequins?

I don't actually know. I know they encompass the majority, but is that unreasonable given the popularity? I get the chicken and egg situation, but non-marines have received no small share of kits. The problem is then the goal posts get moved to begrudge CSM and Sisters in as "Power Armor" releases.

Simply put - yes. Think about how this use to work - In any given release cycle you would see a handful of units for a few different armies, and on rare occasion you might see a large release due to a total revamp (like DE in 5th).

And sure, Marines have always gotten a little more love since they really are the cash cow. I don't think most would begrudge them that. It makes sense. But compare what I mentioned above, to what we currently have. Like I said before - did we need more Lt's? Do Marines really need all the different Captains? Does it make sense to release even more marine vehicles? In a vacuum maybe? But when this is being done in the face of not touching some models for 20+ years, when armies like DE have only lost models since 5th, when all the players of all the other factions are watching the marine train roll on almost endlessly - yeah it's a bit much imo.

And saying "YEAH BUT NECRONS!" doesn't really change it either. Because again, look at the schedule - it was something like "Marines, Marines, Marines, Necrons and Marines, Necrons and Marines, Marines, Marines". You're telling me it wouldn't have been better for at least one or two of those "marines" to have been an Eldar release, or a DE or IG release?

As far as "moving the goal posts" for CSM/Sisters releases - I haven't really seen that. What I have seen is similar to the above example. GW releases a new model or two for a non-marine faction amidst a slew of new marine releases and people say "see? non-marines got something ..." lol

No one (or at least not me anyway) expects it to be an even 50-50 release schedule, and lately, I'm sure COVID has REALLY buggered the schedule, but it also shouldn't be nearly so blatantly lopsided as its been imo.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They aren't though; codex supplements are a thing. Forge worlds, holy orders, etc don't have those. Not to mention that one SM codex is the size of two xeno ones put together.

every chapter i listed is playable with only the basic SM codex (except Deathwatch i think). Supplements aren't codexes, they're bonuses (DLC) that some subfactions get.
Just because the Codex is bloated doesn't mean its justified to keep feeding them new units/rules, on the contrary.

Codex supplements exist; it does not make sense to ignore them when evaluating how much content different armies have.

I think if this is really bewildering to you, maybe you should look at AOS and the fact that comparatively much, much, MUCH fewer people hate on Stormcast than they hate on Marines in 40k.

And then you look at the releases, and you see that AOS is actually a proper factional game: it has many many books, and what it DOESNT have is 35% of the army books in Stormcast. And occasionally, GW just takes a few months to shut the feth up about stormcast and release brand new, incredible looking ranges for other factions.

We've had basically non-stop "Wooooooooooah look at this incredible new model range for AOS! And we don't want to leave out 40k - A NEW LAND SPEEDER! Wooooooooooooooooooooooooo! everybody get hyped!" for the last 6 months or so.

It's at the point where I've learned 6 new computer programs so that I can cad, pose and print my own Aspect Warrior sculpts, printed and painted an entire 15mm russian WW2 army, painted an entire titanicus legio, finished up my AOS army, and every time I look back over at 40k it's just

"welp, let's see, anything new to be interested in for any of my freaking NINE 40k armies? Any previews even?

Just the one fairly uninspired Lelith Hesperax Resculpt?

Oh, it's only available in a box set that's more expensive than my entire 3d printing setup was?

In 9 months?

Ok, cool, guess I'll just go back to what I've been doing."

Imo it’s a mistake to count white scars as a different faction to iron hands simply based on the use of supplements. You can say they play differently but so do catachans and tallarn. The only difference is that GW has spent far more time giving each chapter an over abundance of rules but doesn’t care to do the same for other factions. GW could feasibly make every sub faction as varied as marines without too much effort, but I wouldn’t then go around calling Dalyth a separate faction from Viorla no matter how different their sub faction rules are.

Fundamentally, when GW releases marines all chapters can use the new kit, that tells me marines are one faction. Grey knights can’t and therefore they are a different faction.

the_scotsman wrote:
I think if this is really bewildering to you, maybe you should look at AOS and the fact that comparatively much, much, MUCH fewer people hate on Stormcast than they hate on Marines in 40k.

And then you look at the releases, and you see that AOS is actually a proper factional game: it has many many books, and what it DOESNT have is 35% of the army books in Stormcast. And occasionally, GW just takes a few months to shut the feth up about stormcast and release brand new, incredible looking ranges for other factions.

Except that the first couple years of AoS was Stormcast and then another chamber with its very own book... and then another chamber with its very own book... and then another chamber with its very own book. They consolidated it at some point. The Stormcast fatigue was there.

It wasn't until GW dropped the ridiculously baller new concepts for some of the newer armies that people changed their tack.

Like...
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/01/aos-stormcast-love.html

At some point the marine releases will slow. I won't discount GW's shrewd maneuver to push out new kits with additional options for existing kits at some point, but I don't see enough for a major release now. I'm sure they'll grace a boxed set with a new unit or something.

It wasn't until GW dropped the ridiculously baller new concepts for some of the newer armies that people changed their tack.

Right. So if GW does exactly what I've been suggesting and drops a series of cool non-Loyalist Space Marine releases,(without also releasing marines along side them) the hate will likely die significantly.

At some point the marine releases will slow. I won't discount GW's shrewd maneuver to push out new kits with additional options for existing kits at some point, but I don't see enough for a major release now. I'm sure they'll grace a boxed set with a new unit or something.

Hopefully you're right and the train slows or even stops for a bit, but I am willing to bet that if you had gone to all the players before this most recent wave had started and asked if they felt marines needed a major, year + long release, most would have said "I don't think they need a major release right now." so ... eh? lol

@OP:

No, they are not. It's only a natural gut reaction by people who are force-fed by GW to gulp down ten pizzas at once instead of enjoying occasionally a single pizza for a meal.

Dandelion wrote:
Imo it’s a mistake to count white scars as a different faction to iron hands simply based on the use of supplements. You can say they play differently but so do catachans and tallarn.

I don't totally agree on the degree of difference there. AM lists often share very similar elements. But you'll almost never find Iron Hands sporting Bikes and Lightning Claw VV and no Eradicators. The way I react to when I play IH differs from WS. When I play guard it doesn't matter to me if they're Catachan, Cadian, or Mordian. Tallarn only throws a wrench if they drag in a super heavy, but no really one does that.

On the flip side against Necrons - you could face a silver tide, obsec scarab swarms, monster mash, and a ton of other variants. Here I would start to react differently like when I face marines, but in terms of models they don't need a ton and as mentioned elsewhere those needed kits are the expensive ones that they won't cram together all at once.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:

Hopefully you're right and the train slows or even stops for a bit, but I am willing to bet that if you had gone to all the players before this most recent wave had started and asked if they felt marines needed a major, year + long release, most would have said "I don't think they need a major release right now." so ... eh? lol

Well, yea, but I don't think anyone who isn't a marine player would feel strongly about marines getting releases.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I don't totally agree on the degree of difference there. AM lists often share very similar elements. But you'll almost never find Iron Hands sporting Bikes and Lightning Claw VV and no Eradicators. The way I react to when I play IH differs from WS. When I play guard it doesn't matter to me if they're Catachan, Cadian, or Mordian. Tallarn only throws a wrench if they drag in a super heavy, but no really one does that.

Take an army other than AM, then. You'll almost never find Kronos running Hormagaunts and Haruspexes and no Hive Guard, or Hydra with Carnifexes but no Gaunts.

Or, the way the three main subdivisions within the Drukhari book play are very different. Covens vs Wyches is more distinct than Iron Hands vs White Scars.

And to a large degree, the differences in playstyle between Marine subfactions is driven by their special supplement rules, which in turn is reflective of their disproportionate attention. Strip them down to just subfaction traits- like everyone else gets- and Marine armies start to look pretty same-y.

I think GW is making it clear what they see as a faction and what not by having a separate category for them in their Onlineshop.

Seems straightforward, why deviate from it?

Edit:
And in their Metawatch article they outright tell us what factions there are
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/11/19/metawatch-warhammer-40000-episode-2-data-gods-of-war/

They still need to re-do all the supplements for 9th and do a Black Templar one too with that likely to happening sometime this year. So even then, the Marine train shows no signs of slowing down "soon."

If they actually do take the pedal off and give other factions chances to breathe a little then you would absolutely see a lot of the hate and frustration die down, but this is yet to happen. As is we're due 2017-2021 to be practically non-stop Marine releases of some kind, with the only significant break being 2018. There is nothing comparable to that in previous 40k Editions and it's not like when Primaris first came out the Marine range was long overdue for new models; hadn't a lot of their kits recently been updated and refreshed in like 2015 or something?

If they actually do take the pedal off and give other factions chances to breathe a little then you would absolutely see a lot of the hate and frustration die down, but this is yet to happen. As is we're due 2017-2021 to be practically non-stop Marine releases of some kind, with the only significant break being 2018. There is nothing comparable to that in previous 40k Editions and it's not like when Primaris first came out the Marine range was long overdue for new models; hadn't a lot of their kits recently been updated and refreshed in like 2015 or something?

Exactly.

...and again, I have had marines as my primary since RT, and even I can see how silly it's been. I don't get why it's so hard for some.

I mean I like Marines, Crimson Fists are one of my chapters. Except I don't play Marines, I play Guard, specifically Mordians with some converted Cadians. Mordians of which now lack models unless GW thinks their conversion they have in the Guard book is plausible for the regular player at all.

It's not about the rules for me entirely, it's the reason to continue to support GW for essentially giving me nothing in return and little reason to be excited beyond rules. Rules of which in this edition make playing Guard difficult, pricing which now makes buying 3rd party resin reasonable as a comparable option, and less and less choices each year model wise.