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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

If they see no other improvements other than the additional wound, and we don't get any good faction rules, you could be right. But I want to find out. I'm tired of the status quot. And even if it doesn't help bog standard CSM, I can't wait to see what it does for my Chosen, terminators, Warp Talons, and Raptors.

i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.

But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?

you mean like how the captain on bike isnt legend but the lord on bike is?

i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.

But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"

I thought they made some great strides towards that in Faith and Fury. As an Iron Warriors player, I really enjoy using the IW rules out of that. I'm hoping they keep some version of that in the new CSM book (for all the Legions of course - not just IW). Some of them need tweaked as they weren't quite good enough, but I was, at least, really happy with what IW got from that.

Vladmir: I mean, why do for example Trueborn get a Legends datasheet but not other stuff like Vect? I would have thought they would have put in Legends sheets for all the stuff they used to make maybe? But it seems like they do it fairly randomly.

And sure, if there are discrepencies between factions like you mention between I assume Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, why is that?

Part of the main issue is, at least my little 'generation' of players were largely brought on by the video games Dawn of War 1 and 2, where 40k was presented as a 'factional game' similar to a World of Warcraft or I guess a Starcraft - a sci-fi universe where you pick which faction you like and they've all got a roughly equal shake.

At least, that's how they're presented in DOW. The problem is, the game doesn't actually function like DOW - if someone joins now, they're presented with a game where roughly 1/3 of the factions are loyalist marines, 50% of the model releases are loyalist marines, and 90% of the fiction is about loyalist marines, who incidentally win nearly all the time in said background fiction.

Every time some new standard policy gets rolled out, Loyalist Marines seem to get an exception

-For 2 years, only loyalist marines had a 'no allies bonus' rule, and now, loyalist marines are so far the only faction that gets any kind of option to KEEP part of that no allies bonus if they have certain allies. Even Death Guard are not allowed to keep part of their contagion rule if they bring Nurgle Chaos Daemons.

-All throughout the rollout of the Custom Subfaction Traits, the tradeoff of taking the comparatively more power-gameable custom traits was not getting to have the occasionally key unique strat, relic, or warlord trait from one of the core traits. Except for Loyalist Marines, who incidentally also get 6x as many unique warlord traits, relics, strats, AND get a unique psychic power table as well. But it's chill if they also get to use the powergameable custom traits on top of all that, while everyone else is limited.

-Every time a new kit comes out for an existing unit, it replaces those models and the rules from the new kit are the only rules - you lose any options not present in the new kit. Like the old models? Youv'e got a window of 'until the new model is officially released' to get them. Oh, but not loyalist marines, of course, obvious replacement kits like Outriders are released ALONGSIDE existing kits like Bikers, and GW will happily engage in a nice spot of power creepin' to make sure those old kits are still useful compared to the new ones...and of course if the old kits then outshine the new ones those need buffed....why but then the players of classic units need buffs to compete....but nobody's buying our new units now sadface we have to buff them...

-No model, no rules being enforced harder than ever? Why yes, but not for good old loyalist space marines! We need people to buy codexes, so we'll gladly give loyalist space marine players rules like Deathwatch Veterans, who have all the weaponry options from the Deathwatch Veterans kit AND the Sternguard kit included in their datasheet, that's fine. You've also got units that just don't have kits like Intercessor Death Company - but of course Bloodbrides and Trueborn had to be deleted, units that just used the bits from the existing kabalite and wych kits that are just as, if not more compatible than the various marine kits.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Vladmir: I mean, why do for example Trueborn get a Legends datasheet but not other stuff like Vect? I would have thought they would have put in Legends sheets for all the stuff they used to make maybe? But it seems like they do it fairly randomly.

And sure, if there are discrepencies between factions like you mention between I assume Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, why is that?

If you made me guess, it's because legends is 0% priority and if some poor sod wants to do it, he has to do it on his own time while not getting paid on top of what is almost certainly one of those lovely "Passion Project" work environments where a ruthless corporation exploits the fact that people view any artistic pursuits as a fun activity rather than work that should be paid for.

GW's design team decisions could be viewed as incompetence, but they could also be viewed as the result of 80 hour work weeks with an additional filter of corporate trash people meddling with the rules after the designers are done with them.

Tycho wrote:

i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.

But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"

I thought they made some great strides towards that in Faith and Fury. As an Iron Warriors player, I really enjoy using the IW rules out of that. I'm hoping they keep some version of that in the new CSM book (for all the Legions of course - not just IW). Some of them need tweaked as they weren't quite good enough, but I was, at least, really happy with what IW got from that.

yeah,faith and fury made my night lords actually fluffy.... as long as i didnt run out of CP that is.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Vladmir: I mean, why do for example Trueborn get a Legends datasheet but not other stuff like Vect? I would have thought they would have put in Legends sheets for all the stuff they used to make maybe? But it seems like they do it fairly randomly.

And sure, if there are discrepencies between factions like you mention between I assume Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines, why is that?

because when they introduced legends, vect didnt have a datasheet while trueborn did. Its stupid but thats how it is. I really hope we get him back some day.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

If they see no other improvements other than the additional wound, and we don't get any good faction rules, you could be right. But I want to find out. I'm tired of the status quot. And even if it doesn't help bog standard CSM, I can't wait to see what it does for my Chosen, terminators, Warp Talons, and Raptors.

i'm hoping so badly that the legions get fun stuff. I'd love to see them play with the force org and make raptors troops as long as you're playing night lords for example.

But at that point, i'd settle for the more realistic outcome of "our legion trait applies to everything, +1w and thats it"

I'm betting instead of counting as troops, Raptors will instead gain obsec in a Night Lords Outrider detachment. I believe that would match up to how terminators work for DA Deathwing. I may be remembering that wrong though.

I think the best that the Undivided Legions can hope for regarding troops is that Chosen become troops for them, just like Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. The additional attack, +1 leadership, melee weapons in addition to ranged weapons, and availability of special weapons would give us something to truly compete with intercessors and their equivalents like Hellblasters.

 Da Boss wrote:
Why does Legends exist? And why do some things not get put in Legends?

you mean like how the captain on bike isnt legend but the lord on bike is?

Another example of No Model No Rules not being applied consistently.

Tycho wrote:I thought they made some great strides towards that in Faith and Fury. As an Iron Warriors player, I really enjoy using the IW rules out of that. I'm hoping they keep some version of that in the new CSM book (for all the Legions of course - not just IW). Some of them need tweaked as they weren't quite good enough, but I was, at least, really happy with what IW got from that.

I agree. The Night Lords rules in Faith and Fury were excellent, and I hope we see more like them in the new CSM codex. But they need rules that allow the Legions to work as they should without massive CP expenditures. I'd also personally welcome fluffy limits to what the Legions can take similar to Traitor Legions, along with rules to make them function without those things. Night Lords shouldn't have marks, and marks shouldn't be needed for CSM units to function properly unless those units must have those marks, like the various Cult Marines and mark locked daemon engines.

The Death Guard codex was excellent (barring the ridiculous equipment rules for Plague Marines and Blightlords) so maybe there is hope.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm betting instead of counting as troops, Raptors will instead gain obsec in a Night Lords Outrider detachment. I believe that would match up to how terminators work for DA Deathwing. I may be remembering that wrong though.

I think the best that the Undivided Legions can hope for regarding troops is that Chosen become troops for them, just like Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. The additional attack, +1 leadership, melee weapons in addition to ranged weapons, and availability of special weapons would give us something to truly compete with intercessors and their equivalents like Hellblasters.

I agree. The Night Lords rules in Faith and Fury were excellent, and I hope we see more like them in the new CSM codex. But they need rules that allow the Legions to work as they should without massive CP expenditures. I'd also personally welcome fluffy limits to what the Legions can take similar to Traitor Legions, along with rules to make them function without those things. Night Lords shouldn't have marks, and marks shouldn't be needed for CSM units to function properly unless those units must have those marks, like the various Cult Marines and mark locked daemon engines.

The Death Guard codex was excellent (barring the ridiculous equipment rules for Plague Marines and Blightlords) so maybe there is hope.

Yeah, i'd settle for obsec on them.
Chosen as troops would be nice if your whole army is undivided but i wouldnt want to force certain legions to be undivided (to keep options open for players to develop lore for their armies).
Make marks give stats instead of unlocking wombo combos, delete VotLW (we know its staying since DG kept their renamed variant), delete endless cacophony and then i'd be really happy.

I wouldn't care that Space Marines are constantly getting tons of new stuff if all the other armies that desparately need updates were't being left decades in the past.

It rubs me the wrong way when even GW is mocking 'haha here comes the 10th Primaris Lieutenant', when almost all the Phoenix Lords and the damn Avatar of Khaine are still using sculpts from the early 90s.

Make all the pointless Space Marine models you want, AFTER you give support to all the other armies in your range that need it.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm betting instead of counting as troops, Raptors will instead gain obsec in a Night Lords Outrider detachment. I believe that would match up to how terminators work for DA Deathwing. I may be remembering that wrong though.

I think the best that the Undivided Legions can hope for regarding troops is that Chosen become troops for them, just like Cult Marines are troops for their respective Legions. The additional attack, +1 leadership, melee weapons in addition to ranged weapons, and availability of special weapons would give us something to truly compete with intercessors and their equivalents like Hellblasters.

I agree. The Night Lords rules in Faith and Fury were excellent, and I hope we see more like them in the new CSM codex. But they need rules that allow the Legions to work as they should without massive CP expenditures. I'd also personally welcome fluffy limits to what the Legions can take similar to Traitor Legions, along with rules to make them function without those things. Night Lords shouldn't have marks, and marks shouldn't be needed for CSM units to function properly unless those units must have those marks, like the various Cult Marines and mark locked daemon engines.

The Death Guard codex was excellent (barring the ridiculous equipment rules for Plague Marines and Blightlords) so maybe there is hope.

Yeah, i'd settle for obsec on them.
Chosen as troops would be nice if your whole army is undivided but i wouldnt want to force certain legions to be undivided (to keep options open for players to develop lore for their armies).
Make marks give stats instead of unlocking wombo combos, delete VotLW (we know its staying since DG kept their renamed variant), delete endless cacophony and then i'd be really happy.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by "Undivided Legions". The Undivided Legions are: Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Black Legion. That designation has nothing to do with what marks etc are taken in armies of those respective Legions. I'm merely suggesting that those Legions get a "better troops option", just like the God aligned Legions.

Mark availability would be handled similarly to Traitor Legions, eg: none for Night Lords or Iron Warriors, any marks for Word Bearers, but no units that require a mark (no Cult Marines), and no limitations for Black Legion (letting anyone join being "their thing"). Those limitations would then be balanced out by the Legion abilities.

Those kinds of rules are part of what made Traitor Legions, and CSM 3.5, so great, at least for me. No two Legions were alike. They brought different units, and played differently. That is just my opinion though, and I'm sure others would disagree.

Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!

We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain

On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money.

We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain

On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.

Isnt the Invader ATV the primaris attack bike?
Isnt the Gladiator Valiant the primaris vindicator?

for the rest, yeah sure, we're "missing" these i guess....

 Xenomancers wrote:
Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!

We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain

On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.

Something being expected does not make it less annoying. I expect every movie to be produced by hollywood to have a budget that requires its story to be so simplified and basic that every human being on the planet can comprehend it regardless of what language or culture they originate from, because that's what's required for that movie to turn any kind of a profit.

That still makes me angry, and it results in me laughing at these stupid designed-by-committee movies and the fact that I basically never pay for new movies anymore.

I also expect GW to produce nothing but space marines - the result of that is instead of buying another...god, at this point like 500 points of GW miniatures, I bought a 3d printer and I'm learning various software packages to pose my own Aspect Warrior models for 25 cents apiece instead of paying 10$ a model for a fossilized shaving cream recast of some thing some artist sculpted when I was 2 years old.

the_scotsman wrote:
-For 2 years, only loyalist marines had a 'no allies bonus' rule, and now, loyalist marines are so far the only faction that gets any kind of option to KEEP part of that no allies bonus if they have certain allies. Even Death Guard are not allowed to keep part of their contagion rule if they bring Nurgle Chaos Daemons.

That's not really the same thing. One is a character here or there. The other is an entire army.

-All throughout the rollout of the Custom Subfaction Traits, the tradeoff of taking the comparatively more power-gameable custom traits was not getting to have the occasionally key unique strat, relic, or warlord trait from one of the core traits. Except for Loyalist Marines, who incidentally also get 6x as many unique warlord traits, relics, strats, AND get a unique psychic power table as well. But it's chill if they also get to use the powergameable custom traits on top of all that, while everyone else is limited.

Yep, not great.

-Every time a new kit comes out for an existing unit, it replaces those models and the rules from the new kit are the only rules - you lose any options not present in the new kit. Like the old models? Youv'e got a window of 'until the new model is officially released' to get them. Oh, but not loyalist marines, of course, obvious replacement kits like Outriders are released ALONGSIDE existing kits like Bikers, and GW will happily engage in a nice spot of power creepin' to make sure those old kits are still useful compared to the new ones...and of course if the old kits then outshine the new ones those need buffed....why but then the players of classic units need buffs to compete....but nobody's buying our new units now sadface we have to buff them...

Has there been an instance where people actually wanted the old models? Metals I might understand, but crummy plastics? Outriders got a point increase and it seems they weren't even particularly shining strong. But then you'd prefer GW make all the old kits bad? What exactly are you attempting to argue here with this tinfoil nonsense?

-No model, no rules being enforced harder than ever? Why yes, but not for good old loyalist space marines! We need people to buy codexes, so we'll gladly give loyalist space marine players rules like Deathwatch Veterans, who have all the weaponry options from the Deathwatch Veterans kit AND the Sternguard kit included in their datasheet, that's fine. You've also got units that just don't have kits like Intercessor Death Company - but of course Bloodbrides and Trueborn had to be deleted, units that just used the bits from the existing kabalite and wych kits that are just as, if not more compatible than the various marine kits.

We'll see what happens. The impetus for Bloodbrides is entirely detached from what happened to PM. They were almost the same damn unit with just +1A. I'd bet you'll get a Bloodbrides stratagem like Vet Intercessors.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

That's not really the same thing. One is a character here or there. The other is an entire army.

yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Has there been an instance where people actually wanted the old models? Metals I might understand, but crummy plastics? Outriders got a point increase and it seems they weren't even particularly shining strong. But then you'd prefer GW make all the old kits bad? What exactly are you attempting to argue here with this tinfoil nonsense?

i'd much rather have the old MK3/MK4 models for my CSM than the new "trims-o-plenty" ones.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
-For 2 years, only loyalist marines had a 'no allies bonus' rule, and now, loyalist marines are so far the only faction that gets any kind of option to KEEP part of that no allies bonus if they have certain allies. Even Death Guard are not allowed to keep part of their contagion rule if they bring Nurgle Chaos Daemons.

That's not really the same thing. One is a character here or there. The other is an entire army.

I'm talking about the fact that I can bring my Deathwatch army with a detachment of Blood Angels and I get to keep Combat Doctrines.

DG do not get to keep any of their Purity Bonus abilities if they take a detachment from even a restricted, fluff-driven portion of one other codex. Marines get free access to 8 different codexes (which we have to consider as 8 codexes remember because that justifies them getting 8x the model releases and being 30% of the play pool in competitive)

I'm not even talking Imperial Agents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

-Every time a new kit comes out for an existing unit, it replaces those models and the rules from the new kit are the only rules - you lose any options not present in the new kit. Like the old models? Youv'e got a window of 'until the new model is officially released' to get them. Oh, but not loyalist marines, of course, obvious replacement kits like Outriders are released ALONGSIDE existing kits like Bikers, and GW will happily engage in a nice spot of power creepin' to make sure those old kits are still useful compared to the new ones...and of course if the old kits then outshine the new ones those need buffed....why but then the players of classic units need buffs to compete....but nobody's buying our new units now sadface we have to buff them...

Has there been an instance where people actually wanted the old models? Metals I might understand, but crummy plastics? Outriders got a point increase and it seems they weren't even particularly shining strong. But then you'd prefer GW make all the old kits bad? What exactly are you attempting to argue here with this tinfoil nonsense?

I'd prefer for them to avoid the absolutely absurd datasheet bloat that results from them replacing the entire marine range, already the biggest range in the game, and releasing the new models ALONGSIDE the existing range, resulting in 7 page wargear lists and 250 datasheet codexes.

Scout Snipers and Eliminators do not both need to exist.
Outriders and Bikers do not both need to exist
Tacticals and Intercessors do not both need to exist
Tactical Termies and Aggressors do not both need to exist.

Would I prefer them to have just left goddamn well enough alone and allowed marines to remain the most up-to-date model range in the entire game as of 7th ed, and not Iphone 10 11 12 13 14 FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER them? Yes. If they're not going to do that, would I prefer they at least have the common decency to properly replace the existing models instead of trying to keep both ranges alive, taking up 99.999% of their design space and time?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!

We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain

On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.

As others have mentioned, the ATV is the primaris Assault Bike equivalent, and the Gladiator Valiant is the primaris Vindicator equivalent. End the silly segregation of transports and the current drop pods work fine. Give Assault Intercessors jump packs and you have your Jump Infantry.

The demand for flyers is what always confounds me. What says the flyers loyalists already have aren't being piloted by primaris? What would adding a flyer with the PRIMARIS keyword accomplish?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?

Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.

Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?

Either way it's GW marine favouritism.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Space marines...the best selling faction in 40k has gone with a reworked model line for EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX. There is even more primaris to come and you should expect it. GW is in it to make money. If you keep letting the expected upset you or surprise you - you are heading down the path of anger. Anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering!

We still dont have a new
Attack bike.
Whirlwind
vindicator
A Jetpack assault unit
A drop pod
Flyers
Bike Captain

On can only hope that this new model enthusiasm carries over to other factions.

Something being expected does not make it less annoying. I expect every movie to be produced by hollywood to have a budget that requires its story to be so simplified and basic that every human being on the planet can comprehend it regardless of what language or culture they originate from, because that's what's required for that movie to turn any kind of a profit.

That still makes me angry, and it results in me laughing at these stupid designed-by-committee movies and the fact that I basically never pay for new movies anymore.

I also expect GW to produce nothing but space marines - the result of that is instead of buying another...god, at this point like 500 points of GW miniatures, I bought a 3d printer and I'm learning various software packages to pose my own Aspect Warrior models for 25 cents apiece instead of paying 10$ a model for a fossilized shaving cream recast of some thing some artist sculpted when I was 2 years old.

There is always Russian 3rd party.

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm talking about the fact that I can bring my Deathwatch army with a detachment of Blood Angels and I get to keep Combat Doctrines.

DG do not get to keep any of their Purity Bonus abilities if they take a detachment from even a restricted, fluff-driven portion of one other codex. Marines get free access to 8 different codexes (which we have to consider as 8 codexes remember because that justifies them getting 8x the model releases and being 30% of the play pool in competitive)

I'm not even talking Imperial Agents.

Ok, sure but doctrines aren't really as big of a thing as super docs. DG still gets plague companies. They just don't get Nurgle's Gift.

the_scotsman wrote:


I'd prefer for them to avoid the absolutely absurd datasheet bloat that results from them replacing the entire marine range, already the biggest range in the game, and releasing the new models ALONGSIDE the existing range, resulting in 7 page wargear lists and 250 datasheet codexes.

Scout Snipers and Eliminators do not both need to exist.
Outriders and Bikers do not both need to exist
Tacticals and Intercessors do not both need to exist
Tactical Termies and Aggressors do not both need to exist.

Would I prefer them to have just left goddamn well enough alone and allowed marines to remain the most up-to-date model range in the entire game as of 7th ed, and not Iphone 10 11 12 13 14 FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER them? Yes. If they're not going to do that, would I prefer they at least have the common decency to properly replace the existing models instead of trying to keep both ranges alive, taking up 99.999% of their design space and time?

I would wager there are lots of people who would oppose such a move. Why would we complain about PM and then turn around and advocate wiping out a massive swath of models in one go?

Sure they could have handled it differently and just scaled up like CSM, but we're well past that possibility now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?

Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.

Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?

Either way it's GW marine favouritism.

I feel like wires are getting crossed.

You can't take Ultramarines and Blood Angels and still get Scions and Savage Echoes.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?

Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.

Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?

Either way it's GW marine favouritism.

Is this a new deathgaurd stipulation? Cause loyalist marines have the most stringent cross faction rules.

Can take 2 marine factions but you lose super doctrines. Can take marine and a non marine faction but you lose all doctrines.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm talking about the fact that I can bring my Deathwatch army with a detachment of Blood Angels and I get to keep Combat Doctrines.

DG do not get to keep any of their Purity Bonus abilities if they take a detachment from even a restricted, fluff-driven portion of one other codex. Marines get free access to 8 different codexes (which we have to consider as 8 codexes remember because that justifies them getting 8x the model releases and being 30% of the play pool in competitive)

I'm not even talking Imperial Agents.

Ok, sure but doctrines aren't really as big of a thing as super docs. DG still gets plague companies. They just don't get Nurgle's Gift.

This is the kind of thing that frustrates me with you. You seem like you're thinking about things, you seem like you're putting things out there in good faith and you're not just disingenuously saying whatever you need to say to throw up a smokescreen - but then you say things like this.

This argument appears to be entirely, totally reliant on someone just taking your word at face value and just not knowing what the rules "Plague Companies" and "Nurgles Gift" do.

It doesn't actually matter that you consider army-wide -1AP on a whole category of weapons every turn to be "not as big a deal" as the part of the rule you lose. Death Guard lose the ENTIRETY of their army-wide no-allies bonus rule if they take any allies, loyalist marines DO NOT.

The equivalent rule to Plague Companies is not Combat Doctrines, it's part of Chapter Tactics (Well, it's 1/6 of Chapter Tactics. Choosing a Chapter for your detachment gives you 6 warlord traits, 6+ stratagems, 6 relics, and 6 psychic powers, choosing a Plague Company gives you 1 Trait 1 Relic 1 Strat.)

There's no army-wide benefit to picking a Plague Company. Loyalist Marines get not just one but two army-wide special purity rules, and they lose 1 of the 2 of them when they take other marines as allies.

So either you do not know what those rules do, or you just threw out that rule...to have what looks like a counter-argument if someone was too lazy to go look up what those rules you referenced actually do. Either way, doesn't look great, and it screams "I am making arguments just to maintain my personal level of Internet Points."



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?

Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.

Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?

Either way it's GW marine favouritism.

Is this a new deathgaurd stipulation? Cause loyalist marines have the most stringent cross faction rules.

Can take 2 marine factions but you lose super doctrines. Can take marine and a non marine faction but you lose all doctrines.

Death Guard don't get the equivalent of a superdoctrine rule, and just gain one rule for going mono-faction (A -1 Toughness aura for enemy units that are within 1" of DG units, the aura size increasing as time goes on)

Given that -1 Toughness is a rule that sometimes gives you one die shift of benefit in trying to kill something, it is equivalent to an extra -1AP on a particular category of weapon.

So yes, DG benefits are more stringent than SM benefits. SM lose 50% of their bonus rules if they ally marines, 100% if they ally other Imperium (None if they ally Imperial Agents) and DG lose 100% if they ally any other Chaos faction at all full stop.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

So why is it okay to mix multiple flavours of loyalist Marines and everyone gets their mono faction bonus. But not for team nurgle?

Marine players either need to decied they are 1 faction from 1 codex then admit GW is over focusing on 1 yes 1 faction.

Or they are 8 independent factions and codex's. So why should mixing 2 codex's for 2 faction's allow them to retain their mono faction bonuses, but not for the others?

Either way it's GW marine favouritism.

Is this a new deathgaurd stipulation? Cause loyalist marines have the most stringent cross faction rules.

Can take 2 marine factions but you lose super doctrines. Can take marine and a non marine faction but you lose all doctrines.

They have the most bonuses too.

Marines get...

Pure <CHAPTER>
Super Doctrines

Pure Astartes-but you can still take Agents
Doctrines

Pure Detachment
Chapter Tactics

Most other factions get subfaction traits for a pure detachment. Necrons get Protocols for pure <DYNASTY>, but those are a lot weaker than Doctrines or Super Doctrines. Sisters get their minor buff for pure Sororitas, and now Death Guard get a pretty nifty bonus for staying pure Death Guard.

So sure, Marines have the strictest requirements to get more than anyone else does. Doctrines and Nurgle's Gift are pretty comparable-so the fact that if you stay pure to one chapter you get EVEN MORE doesn't exactly seem the best argument.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.

Okay thanks for clarifying have not seen the new DG rules. This is likely a trend to come. Soup is going the way of the bye bye. Which is par for the course for GW - allied detachment costing CP at the start of the game was enough of a nerf for taking allies. Losing rules for taking allies is unnecessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.

Well it is the same logic of super heavy aux detachments not getting your army trait even if they are all the same faction.
Same logic of the silent king not benefiting from the Szarekhan trait even while having Szarekhan keyword.
Same logic that incubi should be excluded from getting kabal traits...

It is just bad rules. It blows but it is what we got. The reality is competitive play can not tolerate cross faction play - because it dominates the scene. Even right now being able to take multiple harlequin masques is extremely oppressive. It just needs to go away and die. What people really want is something in between tournament and narrative play but are unwilling to do it for fear of being "casual". Unfortunately - GW makes rules at a snails place. So the only way to really fix it is to house rule. Just do it - forge the damn narrative!

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

That's not what's being asked. If you include any demons at all, literally everything DG get for being "DG" goes away. You get nothing. Ally a, Inquisitor w/SM - you lose literally nothing at all. Ally a second SM chapter, you only lose the Super Doctrine, as opposed to losing everything.

I don't think very many necessarily want Nurgle Demons to also pick up the DG bonus abilities (no one can do that atm and it would be a cluster imo), but you also shouldn't lose them just because you included a Nurgle Demon detachment. This makes no sense to me at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay thanks for clarifying have not seen the new DG rules. This is likely a trend to come. Soup is going the way of the bye bye. Which is par for the course for GW - allied detachment costing CP at the start of the game was enough of a nerf for taking allies. Losing rules for taking allies is unnecessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah but Deathguard and nurgle demons work together just as much as marines and inquisitors/assassins in the fluff. DG are basically nurgle demons themselves. The fact that the contagions don't use the "nurgle" keyword instead of the "deathguard" keyword to allow their use is kind of a miss and IMO another reason why demons and their respective CSM legion should be consolidated in the same codex.

I think you have to recognize what a cluster that would be. No marine army has allies that pick up their bonuses. DG can still do Nurgle allies, but they sacrifice to do so. Isn't that what we wanted for all armies?

"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.

Well it is the same logic of super heavy aux detachments not getting your army trait even if they are all the same faction.
Same logic of the silent king not benefiting from the Szarekhan trait even while having Szarekhan keyword.
Same logic that incubi should be excluded from getting kabal traits...

It is just bad rules. It blows but it is what we got. The reality is competitive play can not tolerate cross faction play - because it dominates the scene. Even right now being able to take multiple harlequin masques is extremely oppressive. It just needs to go away and die. What people really want is something in between tournament and narrative play but are unwilling to do it for fear of being "casual". Unfortunately - GW makes rules at a snails place. So the only way to really fix it is to house rule. Just do it - forge the damn narrative!

Holy feth is Xenomancers advocating for placing restrictions on one's army building to increase the amount of fun both players can have in the game???

it's almost like the idea that a 'proper wargame' is a mental contest of wills between two people that ideally are total strangers and have no idea what units or army the other is bringing to the table is buying into a marketing-driven perversion of the original activity - playing out historical battles and 'what if' scenarios using an agreed-upon set of rules so that two people can sit down at the same table opposite one another and see what would happen in various different situations.

And it's almost like the wider and broader you make the ruleset, the more interesting scenarios you allow to be accounted for, but the more it's going to become essentially un-balanceable via any kind of universal points system.

So if you want the variety of a sprawling game system, but you don't want the imbalance of trying to play totally random pickup games with total strangers, the best course forward is to talk to your opponent and figure out how to make the game scenario as close as possible.

the_scotsman wrote:
This is the kind of thing that frustrates me with you. You seem like you're thinking about things, you seem like you're putting things out there in good faith and you're not just disingenuously saying whatever you need to say to throw up a smokescreen - but then you say things like this.

This argument appears to be entirely, totally reliant on someone just taking your word at face value and just not knowing what the rules "Plague Companies" and "Nurgles Gift" do.

It doesn't actually matter that you consider army-wide -1AP on a whole category of weapons every turn to be "not as big a deal" as the part of the rule you lose. Death Guard lose the ENTIRETY of their army-wide no-allies bonus rule if they take any allies, loyalist marines DO NOT.

The equivalent rule to Plague Companies is not Combat Doctrines, it's part of Chapter Tactics (Well, it's 1/6 of Chapter Tactics. Choosing a Chapter for your detachment gives you 6 warlord traits, 6+ stratagems, 6 relics, and 6 psychic powers, choosing a Plague Company gives you 1 Trait 1 Relic 1 Strat.)

There's no army-wide benefit to picking a Plague Company. Loyalist Marines get not just one but two army-wide special purity rules, and they lose 1 of the 2 of them when they take other marines as allies.

So either you do not know what those rules do, or you just threw out that rule...to have what looks like a counter-argument if someone was too lazy to go look up what those rules you referenced actually do. Either way, doesn't look great, and it screams "I am making arguments just to maintain my personal level of Internet Points."

Given that -1 Toughness is a rule that sometimes gives you one die shift of benefit in trying to kill something, it is equivalent to an extra -1AP on a particular category of weapon.

I presume people I'm arguing with know what I'm talking about and I'm not here to score points...so...*shrug*

-1T is way more useful when it persists turn to turn in both melee and ranged for any single weapon used rather than a section of an army picking up -1AP. A White Scars army generally gains no benefit until turn 3. Ultramarines will be on for only turns 2 and 3. DG are on 2 through 5, but generally 3 to 5 unless you employ other stuff to get the reach out there.

And then you have to look at the datasheets - expecting every army to be a one for one tit for tat is a terrible way to assess strengths. A PM is one point more than an Intercessor at +1T, -1D, always on rapid fire on the move, and an un-impeachable move, and auto-wounding bolters on 6s for 10 points. They don't pick up an attack on charges, but in protracted combats they are equals - except that all their melee weapons carry a Lieutenant buff.

Imagine 10 UM Intercessors, TH, and all rules - 220 vs 10 PM, 7 Bolters, 2 BL, 1 flail, and sigil - 250.

During round 1 all units need to be moving toward objectives. 5 out of 9 missions have objectives outside deployment that can't be reached by one move.

Intercessors - 1.1 total
10 * .666 * .333 * .5 = 1.1

PM - 4.3 total
((14 * .167) + (14 * .5 * .5)) * .333 = 1.9
4 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 2.4

Round 2 - Intercessors can move and shoot. They might not have to, but odds are they will. I'm not removing casualties, because we're looking at effectiveness at "parity".

Intercessors - 3 total
20 * .666 * .333 * .666 = 3

PM - 4.3 total

So even at their best PM easily outperform Intercessors more than their 14% additional points might permit and without any inkling of -1T being in effect. Without BL at all they'd still be better R1 and slightly behind R2.

In melee --

Intercessors - 3.8
4 * .5 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 1.8
27 * .666 * .333 * .333 = 2

PM - 6.6
6 * .666 * .777 * .666 * 2 = 4.1
19 * .666 * .583 * .333 = 2.5

It just doesn't even come close and we still don't have -1T and it assumes Primaris are under the effect of a charge. PM will never waver from that spot.

Those Intercessors at their best shooting regular marines grab 4.4 versus the 4.3 PM with no -1T. So given the point difference the Intercessors are "better", but would still fall behind on melee. Also disregarding getting 18 S4 AP1 D2 auto-hits that reroll 1s to wound for 1CP when a Biologus is nearby. Throw that in with -1T and you get a pretty big mess - 7 Primaris for those who want to keep count.

Even if these wouldn't be precise real-world scenarios things aren't as cut and dry as one might like to make it.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


"Nurgle's chosen" being penalised for having nurgle demons is 10/10 logic.
Chaos has always been the soup faction. If loyalists can mix with inquisition/assassins, DG should either be able to mix with nurgle demons.
Age of sigmar got the chaos codex properly.

This unequivocally not the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Well it is the same logic of super heavy aux detachments not getting your army trait even if they are all the same faction.
Same logic of the silent king not benefiting from the Szarekhan trait even while having Szarekhan keyword.
Same logic that incubi should be excluded from getting kabal traits...

It is just bad rules. It blows but it is what we got. The reality is competitive play can not tolerate cross faction play - because it dominates the scene. Even right now being able to take multiple harlequin masques is extremely oppressive. It just needs to go away and die. What people really want is something in between tournament and narrative play but are unwilling to do it for fear of being "casual". Unfortunately - GW makes rules at a snails place. So the only way to really fix it is to house rule. Just do it - forge the damn narrative!

So you think...the Silent King who is one of the harder models to kill in the game...should also pick up a 5+++ versus MW when he has 2 layers of protection with a 4++?
AND you want to give a model that has a S12 AP4 flat 6 damage shot a free reroll to wound?

I just can't.

Intercessors do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 during Tactical Doctrine.
Plague Marines do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 if under the MEQ are T3.

Plague Marines are more expensive than Intercessors. So they do less damage per point. They also have shorter range. They also have less movement. They also have less buffs available, in general.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Intercessors do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 during Tactical Doctrine.
Plague Marines do 1/9 points of damage per shot. Increasing to 4/27 if under the MEQ are T3.

Plague Marines are more expensive than Intercessors. So they do less damage per point. They also have shorter range. They also have less movement. They also have less buffs available, in general.

yeah but they have different roles, PM aren't only picked for their damage output.