nekooni wrote:
So your entire argument is that you can lie about the reason you copied protected material? That was obviously always a "solution", but that's not remotely close to arguing in good faith.

While I appreciate a solid Kantian moral standpoint, lying only comes up if confronted on the subject (for example, if someone expended the rather significant resources involved to get you in front of a judge). Most likely, lying is completely unnecessary unless you're showing up with a photocopy of every page in the codex, in which case, yes, you're probably violating the most likely justification in the list, namely 'Fair dealing'.

After all, to continue with the rampant Plague Marine datasheet copying as an example, you're probably using Plague Marine models purchased from GW, possibly at a GW event, wherein GW products are promoted. Do you really think you'll even be challenged on your single photocopied sheet containing the Plague Marine dataslate? Seems unlikely.

But, from a Kantian standpoint, you have a point, although I think even Kant might budge a little on that one. However, if you want to remain convinced that you'll be hunted like a heretic and put to the question, far be it from me to dissuade you of your own preconceptions.

Or we can just pirate the codex since paying $50+ for rules that are invalidated less than a month after release is bad personal finance, let alone paying it for a single unit because GW couldn't be bothered to print 3 of those units in the codex itself.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Or we can just pirate the codex since paying $50+ for rules that are invalidated less than a month after release is bad personal finance, let alone paying it for a single unit because GW couldn't be bothered to print 3 of those units in the codex itself.

but nononono, muh poor GW is gonna go out of business!!!!

If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

Non-commercial research and private study
Text and data mining for non-commercial research
Criticism, review and reporting current events
Teaching
Helping disabled people
Parody, caricature and pastiche
Fair dealing

Or do you want us to find a law that litterally states "You may make copies of up to 3,75 pages of a Game Workshop (tm) Codex (tm)"?

 Blackie wrote:
In many western countries photocopying a few pages (actually signficant portions of the books like 10%) is not copyright infringement, it's perfectly legal. It's making profit out of that copies that is copyright infringement.

And manually rewriting is definitely not copyright infringement, anywhere in the world. Unless, again, you make profits out of it.

Actually that's called plagarism. While not illegal per se, it can still be copyright infringement depending on where you are, what you do with the subject and/or how you duplicate the subject. Please consult a copyright attorney before dispensing legal advice. I will say that it's doubtful that GW will even bother going after you for making personal copies for your private use (if they even find out about you).

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

Non-commercial research and private study
Text and data mining for non-commercial research
Criticism, review and reporting current events
Teaching
Helping disabled people
Parody, caricature and pastiche
Fair dealing

Or do you want us to find a law that litterally states "You may make copies of up to 3,75 pages of a Game Workshop (tm) Codex (tm)"?

OK, you explain to me how and what you're teaching (in a professional capacity) using a photocopied plague marine datasheet, whilst playing a game of 40k at your local store.

What is your private research and can you present it?

If you're text or data mining from the copied sheet, that doesn't involve using it for a game.

How does photocopying it help a disabled person? If you give them a copy to read, that means you own the book to have alongside them.

Parody of a datasheet? I'd love to see someone explain how the verbatim plague marine datasheet is a parody of something.

Fair use? The fair use clause that says copying to avoid market interactions is not OK?

Dudeface wrote:
It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

If you've read all the exceptions on that page and still think that copying a single page is a violation, there is nothing anyone here can say which would convince you otherwise. Please feel free to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

It really isn't, and that's why I basically encourage it until GW gets their act together.

TBH, non functional product, and arguably a ruleset invalidating vast swaaths of models and removing culttroops is that, is also not a product that you can demand full price on normaly over here.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
It isn't though, nobody in here has given a fair reason beyond journalistic use, which in return also doesn't limit the number of pages.

Literally the main defence is "they cba to sue you for it don't worry", which is definitely true, but it isn't justification.

If you've read all the exceptions on that page and still think that copying a single page is a violation, there is nothing anyone here can say which would convince you otherwise. Please feel free to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
TBH, non functional product, and arguably a ruleset invalidating vast swaaths of models and removing culttroops is that, is also not a product that you can demand full price on normaly over here.

You'd be welcome to not buy it or negotiate the price with a store owner on those grounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

It really isn't, and that's why I basically encourage it until GW gets their act together.

For once I doff my cap to you for the frank honesty compared to most.

I did, i am certainly not paying for what is equivalent to used toilet paper for me in value

I will still denounce it as the garbage it is, same with gw's pricing structure in general.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I did, i am certainly not paying for what is equivalent to used toilet paper for me in value

I will still denounce it as the garbage it is, same with gw's pricing structure in general.

Yeah the pricing structure has to stop at some point before they self destruct.

Dudeface wrote:
Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.

Except that perspective matters in this case, I'm copying a page to fairly use a product I already own, namely Plague Marines in this example. I have a hard time imagining a more legitimate argument for 'Fair dealing'.

Honestly, at this point, you're arguing semantics out of spite.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I did, i am certainly not paying for what is equivalent to used toilet paper for me in value

I will still denounce it as the garbage it is, same with gw's pricing structure in general.

Yeah the pricing structure has to stop at some point before they self destruct.

Again, that doesn't happen in a bubble to the general gaming industry , which seemingly infected even BMW and tesla with microtransaction and On-disc" (rather on car?) DLC.

They believe they can get away with whale hunting, forgeting that bots don't make for a great gaming community in a game that is driven by community by and large still.

ALAS, GW gonna GW...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If you can hand wave away copying a page of a book you don't own to use to circumvent a purchase, why stop there? Just copy the whole book? I don't understand how you can view pirating a bit of a book as any different than the whole thing.

I did say earlier in the thread I'd be fully understanding if someone went down that route in this circumstance but I don't promote piracy.

Because copying a few pages is fine according to law, copying a whole book isnt

Define "a few pages"..... Because I'm not going to ever copy 1/2 the book as that's just color pictures & lore. And depending upon the type of game I might not copy the Crusade content.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.

Except that perspective matters in this case, I'm copying a page to fairly use a product I already own, namely Plague Marines in this example. I have a hard time imagining a more legitimate argument for 'Fair dealing'.

Honestly, at this point, you're arguing semantics out of spite.

I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Dudeface wrote:
I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Ok, sure, I'm tired of arguing with your reading comprehension levels. Enjoy life, try a library sometime.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Ok, sure, I'm tired of arguing with your reading comprehension levels. Enjoy life, try a library sometime.

That UK heatwave really boiled some peeps brains didn't it...

 Grimtuff wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Ok, sure, I'm tired of arguing with your reading comprehension levels. Enjoy life, try a library sometime.

That UK heatwave really boiled some peeps brains didn't it...

Nah it's all perspective.

Legit challenge: go to a GW store and overtly ask a staff member if you can take a photo of a units datasheet to use later, citing it's fair usage because you bought the models. Let me know how you get on.

Dudeface wrote:


Nah it's all perspective.

Legit challenge: go to a GW store and overtly ask a staff member if you can take a photo of a units datasheet to use later, citing it's fair usage because you bought the models. Let me know how you get on.

Because store employees know the legal ramification of such a thing.

Even then, i wouldn't be surprised if a semi-reasonable employee would understand your situation and say "oh sure, you just bought plague marines and you want to include them in your csm list, you can take a pic of the datasheet off my codex no problem"


Still, this thread is getting wayy of course, we've been arguing about the legal ramification of copyright for too long.

It sucks that the player has to do extra steps to get their datasheet which shouldve been in the codex to begin with.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Nah it's all perspective.

Legit challenge: go to a GW store and overtly ask a staff member if you can take a photo of a units datasheet to use later, citing it's fair usage because you bought the models. Let me know how you get on.

Because store employees know the legal ramification of such a thing.

Even then, i wouldn't be surprised if a semi-reasonable employee would understand your situation and say "oh sure, you just bought plague marines and you want to include them in your csm list, you can take a pic of the datasheet off my codex no problem"


Still, this thread is getting wayy of course, we've been arguing about the legal ramification of copyright for too long.

It sucks that the player has to do extra steps to get their datasheet which shouldve been in the codex to begin with.

I sympathise why it isn't in the codex simultaneously though, it's a duplicate datasheet to have to amend and edit every time the sister book gets an update. Same way we had 1w fnp plague marines stood next to 2w -1d plague marines for 2 years.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Non-commercial research and private study
Text and data mining for non-commercial research
Criticism, review and reporting current events
Teaching
Helping disabled people
Parody, caricature and pastiche
Fair dealing

Or do you want us to find a law that litterally states "You may make copies of up to 3,75 pages of a Game Workshop (tm) Codex (tm)"?

Those are all contextual exceptions to the general rule - and as Dudeface pointed out, "copying a datasheet so I don't have to buy another book (or, for now, White Dwarf)" wouldn't fall into any of those.

Dudeface wrote:Parody of a datasheet? I'd love to see someone explain how the verbatim plague marine datasheet is a parody of something.

The 9th ed Plague Marine datasheet is, among others, a parody of the 8th edition datasheet for the same unit?

Mozzamanx wrote:
You will struggle with the 'Mere Mortals' rule as you cannot have more Cultist units than you do Core Infantry. This does not apply to Possessed which means that you must counter every unit of Cultists with another unit of Legionaries, Chosen, Terminators, Raptors or Havocs.

I do imagine we'll see an AoR in the future that leans hard into cultists and removes that restriction.

GW should just give datesheets that come with models away on request. Or put them online AOS style. Theres still plenty of rules you need to buy after.

Dai wrote:
GW should just give datesheets that come with models away on request. Or put them online AOS style. Theres still plenty of rules you need to buy after.

What are you talking about? AoS data sheets haven't been free online (unless you mean Legends, or maybe their App) for a year now. At least not here in the USA.

They weren't showing on the GW site or on WHC anywhere I could find earlier, either, after tneva made a similar claim in another thread.

TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.

The 40k app did free point updates for book owners but was still branded a waste of phone storage by people who also bemoaned paying for points updates - people will bash GW apps even for their redeeming features.

Dudeface wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.

The 40k app did free point updates for book owners but was still branded a waste of phone storage by people who also bemoaned paying for points updates - people will bash GW apps even for their redeeming features.

That's a ridiculous argument and you know it. The 40k app was bashed because it was a buggy mess that failed to do its job of being a useful army building tool. It doesn't matter how many free updates it includes if you can't trust that those updates have anything to do with the actual rules of the game.

TL/DR, sensible places will go "oh yeah sure, you can use this and the rules are in this book we have sitting around, tbh we all know what that specific datasheet says anyway" and others will go "no, you can't use it unless you have physically got the book in your hand, hahaha"

Basically the 40k problem in a nutshell.

Tyel wrote:
TL/DR, sensible places will go "oh yeah sure, you can use this and the rules are in this book we have sitting around, tbh we all know what that specific datasheet says anyway" and others will go "no, you can't use it unless you have physically got the book in your hand, hahaha"

Basically the 40k problem in a nutshell.

TL;DR: sensible places will go "we need a copy of the rules because if there's any question about how things work we can't rely on quoting exact details from memory" and others will go "nah, it's fine, we'll make up stuff if there's any question".

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.

The 40k app did free point updates for book owners but was still branded a waste of phone storage by people who also bemoaned paying for points updates - people will bash GW apps even for their redeeming features.

That's a ridiculous argument and you know it. The 40k app was bashed because it was a buggy mess that failed to do its job of being a useful army building tool. It doesn't matter how many free updates it includes if you can't trust that those updates have anything to do with the actual rules of the game.

Lol thank you for proving the point.

Dudeface wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.

The 40k app did free point updates for book owners but was still branded a waste of phone storage by people who also bemoaned paying for points updates - people will bash GW apps even for their redeeming features.

That's a ridiculous argument and you know it. The 40k app was bashed because it was a buggy mess that failed to do its job of being a useful army building tool. It doesn't matter how many free updates it includes if you can't trust that those updates have anything to do with the actual rules of the game.

Lol thank you for proving the point.

...are you trying to claim the app isn't buggy and the point values in the app are accurate? This might be a new level of OpalineTM CrusadingTM.

This whole copyright discussion is a sideshow/diversion from the actual topic and, it seems, is just a way for Dudeface to obfuscate the problems with the book and continue pretending they aren't a big deal.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This whole copyright discussion is a sideshow/diversion from the actual topic and, it seems, is just a way for Dudeface to obfuscate the problems with the book and continue pretending they aren't a big deal.

tbf, a lot of responders aren't really helping the issue pretending they're all experts in international copyright law.

Let's see some photos of some law degrees... in another topic, because this one has been beaten to death.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
TBF they are free in the app, and the AoS app is reasonably functional.

The 40k app did free point updates for book owners but was still branded a waste of phone storage by people who also bemoaned paying for points updates - people will bash GW apps even for their redeeming features.

That's a ridiculous argument and you know it. The 40k app was bashed because it was a buggy mess that failed to do its job of being a useful army building tool. It doesn't matter how many free updates it includes if you can't trust that those updates have anything to do with the actual rules of the game.

Lol thank you for proving the point.

...are you trying to claim the app isn't buggy and the point values in the app are accurate? This might be a new level of OpalineTM CrusadingTM.

I used the app the other day because battlescribe has tons of stuff that hasn't updated and it was actually really good. The manual of operations is obviously different but honestly after using it for a full game I'm fully switching over. the quick reference alone makes it worth it. There are a few things in the app that I'm not happy about (like it showing the rules for all the guns not just the one you put on that specific tank). But its so improved sense launch its actually great. Its really nice using an official app too so your never worried about something being worded wrong... its an official GW supported app so nobody can say "show me the real GW rule". I have them all in the palm of my and and can quick reference any book I've added.

What wasn't updated on Battlescribe?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also big LOL at GW writing their rules correctly from publication to publication to app.

Asmodios wrote:
its an official GW supported app so nobody can say "show me the real GW rule"

Sure I can. When the app contradicts the book the vast majority of people will consider the app to be in error, and the app has often been wrong like that. Only a handful of fanboys consider the app anything other than a third-party tool that is slightly less reliable than Battlescribe or Wahapedia.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This whole copyright discussion is a sideshow/diversion from the actual topic and, it seems, is just a way for Dudeface to obfuscate the problems with the book and continue pretending they aren't a big deal.

So to outline for you:

- I acknowledged there were problems with the book/release
- I provided suggestions on how to use the invalid miniatures so people could continue to put their beloved minis on the table top
- Despite saying I understand the want to take the relevant pages as pdfs and wouldn't blame anyone, it's not a legal thing to do
- I pointed out the datasheets in the app update correctly, I've never seen one with incorrect points

Yes lots of those are off topic, yes more people than myself in here engage in this conversation.

By all means, please continue to promote piracy, but I'm interested in solutions and people using their models. If all you want to do is never put your chosen or w/e on the table so you can moan until the end of time that's up to you.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This whole copyright discussion is a sideshow/diversion from the actual topic and, it seems, is just a way for Dudeface to obfuscate the problems with the book and continue pretending they aren't a big deal.

So to outline for you:

- I acknowledged there were problems with the book/release
- I provided suggestions on how to use the invalid miniatures so people could continue to put their beloved minis on the table top
- Despite saying I understand the want to take the relevant pages as pdfs and wouldn't blame anyone, it's not a legal thing to do
- I pointed out the datasheets in the app update correctly, I've never seen one with incorrect points

Yes lots of those are off topic, yes more people than myself in here engage in this conversation.

By all means, please continue to promote piracy, but I'm interested in solutions and people using their models. If all you want to do is never put your chosen or w/e on the table so you can moan until the end of time that's up to you.

You miss the point so beautifully, your own points are somewhere in depths of the Indian Ocean.

Let me explain something simple to you:

When GW removes an option from the rules and the models, the implication is usually that going forward, those options will no longer be sold or supported. What does it mean when an option isn't supported? It means that, over time, it becomes more and more difficult for even a casual gamer to include those unsupported things in their gameplay. This can (and has) happened to everything from Warhammer to DnD, and has even happened in the realm of video games. When something ceases to be supported, a lot of times the community as a whole simply goes along with it.

Your suggestions are falling on deaf ears because the owners of those ears have seen this played out before already. Let's take, for instance, the Rule of 3. What was the response when GW limited everyone to 3 of everything (and 1 of certain things)? It was outrage! Not because they couldn't play with their models, but because the hundreds, potentially even thousands of dollars they invested, along with time and energy to build and paint those models, was made that much less valuable. Not that it was worthless, if you want to get pedantic about it. "Narrative play you can play with all those things!" you shout in another avenue of pedantery, but again that ignores the time and effort that someone put into their collection, thinking all along, for good or ill, that they would be able to play with the models they bought.

Not only do we have Rule of 3, now we have a slew of things that have limited and changed a butt-load of models in a lot of people's collections of Chaos Space Marines. Again, hundreds of dollars and hours in building and painting their collections. In order to make their squads 'legal' some people will either need to chop apart their models or buy new ones, when ultimately none of that would have been necessary if GW had found another way of supporting the product that they sell, either by adding more bits into their boxes (additional sprues of options) or by expanding the rules with a designers note about the legacy of some of those models. We know they can do it. They do it with 30k and Necromunda all the time, and have for a decade.

So when you come along suggesting your little 'fixes', you come off as obnoxious. You come off as trying to give people a half-baked solution. Well you know what? Maybe we don't want your solution. To you, it may seem reasonable, and we must all feel very unreasonable to you, but to us you come across as an obnoxious gnat that's buzzing around our faces as we try to enjoy our beer and sorrow in solidarity with others that are inconvenienced by these changes.

So buzz off.

Dudeface wrote:
By all means, please continue to promote piracy...

I haven't talked about that at all, so go beat that strawman somewhere else.

drbored wrote:


So when you come along suggesting your little 'fixes', you come off as obnoxious. You come off as trying to give people a half-baked solution. Well you know what? Maybe we don't want your solution. To you, it may seem reasonable, and we must all feel very unreasonable to you, but to us you come across as an obnoxious gnat that's buzzing around our faces as we try to enjoy our beer and sorrow in solidarity with others that are inconvenienced by these changes.

So buzz off.

I'm so sorry that you feel so inconvenienced that you have to be hostile and so apathetic you'd rather store/bin/sell the models you've spent hundreds of dollars on.

I will leave you all to wallow in your whining in that case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
By all means, please continue to promote piracy...

I haven't talked about that at all, so go beat that strawman somewhere else.

It was a generalistic response but not challenging the concept is encouraging it.

Dudeface wrote:
... not challenging the concept is encouraging it.

No it fething isn't, and don't you dare start that gak here.

That's like saying that liking Darth Vader means you're A-OK with child murder.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
... not challenging the concept is encouraging it.

No it fething isn't, and don't you dare start that gak here.

That's like saying that liking Darth Vader means you're A-OK with child murder.

Except the inadequately enforced forum rules are to not promote piracy, which this thread has. If it wasn't to be challenged, the rule wouldn't exist.

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
... not challenging the concept is encouraging it.

No it fething isn't, and don't you dare start that gak here.

That's like saying that liking Darth Vader means you're A-OK with child murder.

Except the inadequately enforced forum rules are to not promote piracy, which this thread has. If it wasn't to be challenged, the rule wouldn't exist.

And I won't dare oppose piracy and until GW gets their act together, why do you care?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
... not challenging the concept is encouraging it.

No it fething isn't, and don't you dare start that gak here.

That's like saying that liking Darth Vader means you're A-OK with child murder.

Except the inadequately enforced forum rules are to not promote piracy, which this thread has. If it wasn't to be challenged, the rule wouldn't exist.

And I won't dare oppose piracy and until GW gets their act together, why do you care?

Moral compass & forum rules, the fact you've not had a suspension for these sorts of comments is kinda the point.

To be fair, you are the one who dragged this topic into piracy waters when you insisted that making photocopies is not an option for anyone because a certain way of interpreting UK laws might say so.

And that was just one item of obtaining the rules *without resorting to piracy* on a list.

 Jidmah wrote:
To be fair, you are the one who dragged this topic into piracy waters when you insisted that making photocopies is not an option for anyone because a certain way of interpreting UK laws might say so.

And that was just one item of obtaining the rules *without resorting to piracy* on a list.

It came about with people complaining (rightly) that they didn't want to spend £90 to use their cult units.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Nah, that's legal in the US. The information contained within isn't classified lol.

Lolwut? I assume you mean copyrighted, not classified, but yes, the book is absolutely copyrighted.

No, my point is that it's not illegal to hand copy the information out of it. It's not illegal to know what it contains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Copying a single page to solely avoid buying a book for no better reason than saving money is a violation as per those exceptions.

Except that perspective matters in this case, I'm copying a page to fairly use a product I already own, namely Plague Marines in this example. I have a hard time imagining a more legitimate argument for 'Fair dealing'.

Honestly, at this point, you're arguing semantics out of spite.

I bought 10 litres of fuel, better go get a free car to get fair use of it. I bought an eldar codex, better to help myself to some kits to get fair use from it. I bought a pan, better go get a free hob to make fair use of it.

I'm not arguing semantics out of spite, you're seemingly endorsing pirating out of ignorance.

Stop simping for corporations. It's insufferable.


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Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
... not challenging the concept is encouraging it.

No it fething isn't, and don't you dare start that gak here.

That's like saying that liking Darth Vader means you're A-OK with child murder.

Except the inadequately enforced forum rules are to not promote piracy, which this thread has. If it wasn't to be challenged, the rule wouldn't exist.

And I won't dare oppose piracy and until GW gets their act together, why do you care?

Moral compass & forum rules, the fact you've not had a suspension for these sorts of comments is kinda the point.

Supporting modern IP laws' overreach is the opposite of moral. If you want to admit to being a cuck for capital holders don't expect the rest of us to see it as laudable.

It's not a perfect solution either, but you could also cut/copy the datasheets from the old codex and update the few changes to them with pen or stickers.

Don't get me wrong, cult troops should just be PDFs for download on the warCom page. But as long as that isn't happening, using a meh legal solution is still superior to paying GW for two extra codices and a white dwarf.

Vatsetis wrote:
I find completelly hilarious the copyright talk in Dakka when its almost impossible (without expending a considerable amount of money on a sub par, short life pile of printed material, which is NOT RATIONAL from an economic POV) to follow current 40K meta with out resorting to somesort of illegal piracy.

Perhaps 80 or 90% of players do digital piracy... Pretending that this is not the default way in which 40K players get access to the rules in 2022 is like pretending that most adults dont exercise "self-love" just because its inmoral or even ilegal in some countries.

If the rules on the door say you have to wear a shirt, you need to wear a shirt, even if the store is located in a nudist colony.

Not speaking out against something is 100% not the same thing as condoning something. People need to get that through their skulls.

And, again, the piracy diversion does nothing but steer us away from the actual topic.

 Jidmah wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
I find completelly hilarious the copyright talk in Dakka when its almost impossible (without expending a considerable amount of money on a sub par, short life pile of printed material, which is NOT RATIONAL from an economic POV) to follow current 40K meta with out resorting to somesort of illegal piracy.

Perhaps 80 or 90% of players do digital piracy... Pretending that this is not the default way in which 40K players get access to the rules in 2022 is like pretending that most adults dont exercise "self-love" just because its inmoral or even ilegal in some countries.

If the rules on the door say you have to wear a shirt, you need to wear a shirt, even if the store is located in a nudist colony.

Sure, some one can indeed organice their business against the most basic business logic and rationale.

Do actual LGS and Tournamenr exist that enforce every player to go to play 40k with a personal official copy of the 4/6 books you actually need to play? Do they expell you from the venue if you print your list from battleacribe or check wahapedia in your phone?

Never find such thing in the 20 odd tournament venues In which I have been playing 40K during 8th and 9th.

Sure, I knew one adult once that said he did have sex with his long tern GF and neither masturbates... It was weird, but not exactly a relevant nor healthy attitude towards personal relationships.

An BTW this is hardly OT sonce the OP question is hardly answerable in a meaningfull way.

The owners of this forum have asked us to not promote piracy, therefore it should not be promoted. It's as simple as that.

If you don't agree with those rules, maybe you should be taking all that talk about masturbation to a different 40k community.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
its an official GW supported app so nobody can say "show me the real GW rule"

Sure I can. When the app contradicts the book the vast majority of people will consider the app to be in error, and the app has often been wrong like that. Only a handful of fanboys consider the app anything other than a third-party tool that is slightly less reliable than Battlescribe or Wahapedia.

I haven’t run into a single case yet where the rule I looked up wasn’t a carbon copy of one in the dex (obviously there could be errors I don’t ply every army and I haven’t looked up every rule). But even if I did come by a rule that wasn’t 100% the same as what was in the book I’m still using a GW official product so I wouldn’t feel bad if it was messed up. It’s not like I’m printing off random rules from the internet and claiming they are accurate. Obviously it’s all personal opinion and I was one of the people that gave it a terrible review when it first dropped. But when I used it the other week other then a few minor things like all weapons on data cards I found it really good

 Jidmah wrote:
The owners of this forum have asked us to not promote piracy, therefore it should not be promoted. It's as simple as that.

If you don't agree with those rules, maybe you should be taking all that talk about masturbation to a different 40k community.

Exactly how Im promoting piracy? Just because I recognized that something exist dosent mean I endorse it or promoted in any manner.

Just quoting statistics about teenagers pregnancy dosent mean I thing being a teen mom is a desirable outcome.

Extended Digital Piracy is indeed a very bad situation for the community. Hope GW could be more consumer friendly like Corvus Belli and others so we didnt have to have this surreal talks.

Apparently some people believe that reality desapears just by ignoring it.


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Asmodios wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
its an official GW supported app so nobody can say "show me the real GW rule"

Sure I can. When the app contradicts the book the vast majority of people will consider the app to be in error, and the app has often been wrong like that. Only a handful of fanboys consider the app anything other than a third-party tool that is slightly less reliable than Battlescribe or Wahapedia.

I haven’t run into a single case yet where the rule I looked up wasn’t a carbon copy of one in the dex (obviously there could be errors I don’t ply every army and I haven’t looked up every rule). But even if I did come by a rule that wasn’t 100% the same as what was in the book I’m still using a GW official product so I wouldn’t feel bad if it was messed up. It’s not like I’m printing off random rules from the internet and claiming they are accurate. Obviously it’s all personal opinion and I was one of the people that gave it a terrible review when it first dropped. But when I used it the other week other then a few minor things like all weapons on data cards I found it really good

Nice to see the App is getting better. How much those it cost?

I’m not sure if it still has a cost. I have warhammer plus though so I guess it could technically fall under that? So I’m really not sure if anything is stuck behind a pay wall

Asmodios wrote:
I’m not sure if it still has a cost. I have warhammer plus though so I guess it could technically fall under that? So I’m really not sure if anything is stuck behind a pay wall

The army builder requires a subscription iirc, the datasheets etc are unlocked using the code in the book so free if you buy a new codex.


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Vatsetis wrote:
Exactly how Im promoting piracy? Just because I recognized that something exist dosent mean I endorse it or promoted in any manner.

Just quoting statistics about teenagers pregnancy dosent mean I thing being a teen mom is a desirable outcome.

Extended Digital Piracy is indeed a very bad situation for the community. Hope GW could be more consumer friendly like Corvus Belli and others so we didnt have to have this surreal talks.

Apparently some people believe that reality desapears just by ignoring it.

You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard:

Vatsetis wrote:I find completelly hilarious the copyright talk in Dakka when its almost impossible (without expending a considerable amount of money on a sub par, short life pile of printed material, which is NOT RATIONAL from an economic POV) to follow current 40K meta with out resorting to somesort of illegal piracy.

Perhaps 80 or 90% of players do digital piracy... Pretending that this is not the default way in which 40K players get access to the rules in 2022 is like pretending that most adults dont exercise "self-love" just because its inmoral or even ilegal in some countries.

Vatsetis wrote:
Nice to see the App is getting better. How much those it cost?

So I dumped it a long time ago even though I have Warhammer+. I just went back in to check on it and the missions still have it at 12CP. Am Aux is still 2CP. Abaddon is still 220 points with his old stats.

I uninstalled and reinstalled just to be sure and now it's showing the correct things.

I don't own the CSM book, but I can still make a list. Oddly enough the combi-flamer is "locked", but combi-melta/plas stats are visible as well as datasheets so I have no idea what that's about. It also lets me take multiple icons on Chosen without error. Minor stuff, I guess. It does seem better. I would just hope I don't have to reinstall the damn thing every time there's an update.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
Nice to see the App is getting better. How much those it cost?

So I dumped it a long time ago even though I have Warhammer+. I just went back in to check on it and the missions still have it at 12CP. Am Aux is still 2CP. Abaddon is still 220 points with his old stats.

I uninstalled and reinstalled just to be sure and now it's showing the correct things.

I don't own the CSM book, but I can still make a list. Oddly enough the combi-flamer is "locked", but combi-melta/plas stats are visible as well as datasheets so I have no idea what that's about. It also lets me take multiple icons on Chosen without error. Minor stuff, I guess. It does seem better. I would just hope I don't have to reinstall the damn thing every time there's an update.

Not sure about the chaos unit costs I haven’t made a choas list and I don’t own that codex but the CP is correct you have to select if your playing “grand tournament” or “eternal war”. Grand tournament will have the CP change that only applies in the tournament pack

Asmodios wrote:

Not sure about the chaos unit costs I haven’t made a choas list and I don’t own that codex but the CP is correct you have to select if your playing “grand tournament” or “eternal war”. Grand tournament will have the CP change that only applies in the tournament pack

Yea it works now, but I had to reinstall to get it to show.

I do like that it seems to let you list build without any book.

Dudeface wrote:


You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard:

If you don't understand the concept of economic rationality please be silent on the topic.

Hecaton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard:

If you don't understand the concept of economic rationality please be silent on the topic.

I understand it perfectly, if you don't understand that endorsing pirating because it's more "economically rational" is a problem, please remain silent on the topic.

Well I see it like that. Once we get as rich as others got by conducting world wide piracy, I think we could become open to the idea of some sort of piracy cancelation or limitation.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

Not sure about the chaos unit costs I haven’t made a choas list and I don’t own that codex but the CP is correct you have to select if your playing “grand tournament” or “eternal war”. Grand tournament will have the CP change that only applies in the tournament pack

Yea it works now, but I had to reinstall to get it to show.

I do like that it seems to let you list build without any book.

Yeah that’s all I was saying is that it’s much improved over launch and I really enjoyed it. Played a game with my brother last weekend and neither of us had to reference anything other then our phones. The game actually went much faster not having to flip through multiple books and/or needing to pull out a stapled together copy of rules off of websites

Karol wrote:
Well I see it like that. Once we get as rich as others got by conducting world wide piracy, I think we could become open to the idea of some sort of piracy cancelation or limitation.

Ahh bless you Karol, I'm utterly confused by what you wrote, but it diffused the whole thing for me, like putting a puppy on the table.

"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

Dudeface wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

I'm not really going to heavily wade into this, but being forced to purchase overpriced CDs for music wasn't "economically rational". That's why we had all those piracy tools.

Now there's an easier method for the consumer to access music and that piracy largely went away.

There are people who are pirates regardless. Then there are pirates of convenience. Make a product accessible and the latter goes away. Streaming services stopped film piracy until we started getting all the walled gardens and now it's on the rise again where people aren't going to have 5 or 10 different services to watch all the shows. Like there's no way I am buying Apple+ just for Ted Lasso.

Anyway....same concept. The better GW makes it's product the less it will be pirated.

^Well said Daed.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

I'm not really going to heavily wade into this, but being forced to purchase overpriced CDs for music wasn't "economically rational". That's why we had all those piracy tools.

Now there's an easier method for the consumer to access music and that piracy largely went away.

There are people who are pirates regardless. Then there are pirates of convenience. Make a product accessible and the latter goes away. Streaming services stopped film piracy until we started getting all the walled gardens and now it's on the rise again where people aren't going to have 5 or 10 different services to watch all the shows. Like there's no way I am buying Apple+ just for Ted Lasso.

Anyway....same concept. The better GW makes it's product the less it will be pirated.

Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

Also, I'm pretty sure nobody's ever gotten in trouble for pirating 1% of a book. But clearly I'm some kind of anti-capitalist anarchist. So, you know, read that in context.

So think about this also the owners of most these company's in the not so distant past made the money to start often times by stealing from those around them basically the wealthy have money because at some point they stole it from the poor. This is the world over every country just look at Merica a couple generations ago slavery was legal do you think the people that owned slaves ever gave bavk the money they made from selling other people?
Or the back breaking labor and torture they forced on others? No they instead passed it down to there children. The people who sit on top in the world got there through stealing and rapping the people and environment around them then passing it to there kids. feth these corporations they have taken to much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One could say the poorest among us are really the most decent and unfortunately the most prayed upon people in the world.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

And people some how think the world is a metocracy lol as long as such a thing as inheritance exists there can never be a metocracy.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

Let me word it differently then, by saying that it's economically irrational to buy the physical books, you're saying that the rational course of action and by extension what any level headed or educated person should conclude, is to pirate the books.

The moment you claim people buying books are irrational, you're immediately presenting the opposite as the rational thing to do.

I'm not really going to heavily wade into this, but being forced to purchase overpriced CDs for music wasn't "economically rational". That's why we had all those piracy tools.

Now there's an easier method for the consumer to access music and that piracy largely went away.

There are people who are pirates regardless. Then there are pirates of convenience. Make a product accessible and the latter goes away. Streaming services stopped film piracy until we started getting all the walled gardens and now it's on the rise again where people aren't going to have 5 or 10 different services to watch all the shows. Like there's no way I am buying Apple+ just for Ted Lasso.

Anyway....same concept. The better GW makes it's product the less it will be pirated.

Sums it up perfectly tbh, we all know GWs release process and structure is utter turd, they could change the model but haven't yet and if they do it'll solve the issue to a large degree.

Boosykes wrote:
So think about this also the owners of most these company's in the not so distant past made the money to start often times by stealing from those around them basically the wealthy have money because at some point they stole it from the poor. This is the world over every country just look at Merica a couple generations ago slavery was legal do you think the people that owned slaves ever gave bavk the money they made from selling other people?
Or the back breaking labor and torture they forced on others? No they instead passed it down to there children. The people who sit on top in the world got there through stealing and rapping the people and environment around them then passing it to there kids. feth these corporations they have taken to much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One could say the poorest among us are really the most decent and unfortunately the most prayed upon people in the world.

Well that seems off topic. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boosykes wrote:
And people some how think the world is a metocracy lol as long as such a thing as inheritance exists there can never be a metocracy.

Hahaha, that's definitely not true. I've seen people inherit lots of money and lose it through their lack of personal merit, lol.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

We've already seen what GW is capable of delivering for around that amount. Methinks you give them tok much credit. The quality is worth the price of FREE.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

We've already seen what GW is capable of delivering for around that amount. Methinks you give them tok much credit. The quality is worth the price of FREE.

Well given you play the game with their rules it obviously has some value you.

Came to read about CSM. Ended up reading about money, morality and pirates. Not a good time. How about we open a new thread for such things and get back to giving lazy people like me, information.

Vatsetis wrote:
"You called it economically irrational not to pirate and referred to it as the default way to get rules, hence suggesting people should be pirating as a standard".

English is not my mother tongue... But last time I checked "what people do" and "what people should" are not the same thing.

People who are bad at critical thinking often conflate what is with what should be.

I gotta say, Daedalus was right on the money with the analogy to music.

Piracy is only popular when the Correct way of obtaining something becomes to onerous or difficult a task to achieve. For instance, Napster and the P2P systems that took colleges by storm in the early 00s were a lash back against a music industry that made it difficult to obtain good music cheaply. CDs back then were around 20$, which at the time was essentially 5-6 hours of pay that you had to work in order to get. My first job was 3.50/hour scrubbing dishes while in college. It was far easier to just hop onto the local college P2P Campus Network, open up the folder for public music, and take what I wanted.

Then, Apple was like, what if we only charged 99cents per song and made them SUPER easy to download and carry around digitally? Suddenly Pirating CDs was a thing of the past, because most people only ever like 2-3 songs on an album, and the other 8-9 songs are just crap. Unless it's the Blue album by Weezer. Or Pinkerton.

But I digress. If Piracy is =/< the amount of work to do it legally, Piracy wins. When GW makes the books easier to obtain than pirating them, people will go back to GW. Like, for instance, no one really "pirates" OPR, because it's a 5$ "donation" to their patreon and you get the rules, and a bunch of STLs.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Suddenly Pirating CDs was a thing of the past, because most people only ever like 2-3 songs on an album, and the other 8-9 songs are just crap.

Have you tried having better taste in music?

When GW makes the books easier to obtain than pirating them, people will go back to GW.

The books are trivially easy to obtain. You go to the GW store, click "buy", and a few days later a shiny new copy of the book arrives at your house. Or next time you're at your local store you hand the guy behind the cash register some money and he gives you a copy of the book. What you really mean here is that you won't buy legally until GW meets your price demands and makes everything $1 to suit your entitlement issues.

And all this talk about prices and music is revisionist history. Piracy didn't die because an album got slightly cheaper, it died because the primary reason it existed was that the music industry was slow to adopt new technology. The industry was still locked into selling physical CDs at a time when music consumption was moving to mp3 players and listening on your PC, and the only way to get music legally in the format most people wanted to listen to it in was ripping CDs with error-prone software that usually required multiple attempts to get a successful copy. That's what people mean when they say that piracy is a service issue. Once the music industry embraced digital distribution piracy died out except for a handful of people like you that think "I want this to be cheaper" justifies stealing something.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I gotta say, Daedalus was right on the money with the analogy to music.

Piracy is only popular when the Correct way of obtaining something becomes to onerous or difficult a task to achieve. For instance, Napster and the P2P systems that took colleges by storm in the early 00s were a lash back against a music industry that made it difficult to obtain good music cheaply. CDs back then were around 20$, which at the time was essentially 5-6 hours of pay that you had to work in order to get. My first job was 3.50/hour scrubbing dishes while in college. It was far easier to just hop onto the local college P2P Campus Network, open up the folder for public music, and take what I wanted.

Then, Apple was like, what if we only charged 99cents per song and made them SUPER easy to download and carry around digitally? Suddenly Pirating CDs was a thing of the past, because most people only ever like 2-3 songs on an album, and the other 8-9 songs are just crap. Unless it's the Blue album by Weezer. Or Pinkerton.

But I digress. If Piracy is =/< the amount of work to do it legally, Piracy wins. When GW makes the books easier to obtain than pirating them, people will go back to GW. Like, for instance, no one really "pirates" OPR, because it's a 5$ "donation" to their patreon and you get the rules, and a bunch of STLs.

Ahh, so much off topic. I'll join, but I'll keep it short. (For me anyway)

Buying music by the song, for some, was the beginning of the end. I used to only buy music by bands that were good enough that there was never more than two duds on an album. And bands were incentivized to make albums that good. I think of concept albums- like Rush 2112 or the Who's Quadrophenia, or anything by Floyd... Even things like Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime or Green Day's American Idiot (yeah I know... not the worlds most talented musicians, but damn that album captured the Zeitgheist of its era).

In the day of pay by song, no one cares about albums anymore, and one good hit is all you need.

Paying by song is convenient, but like letting your cell phone remember phone numbers, passwords and rules, it reduces your brain capacity.

Got, I hate that I sound like a "Get off my lawn!" old-timer, but man... I do feel a lot has been lost. Don't get me wrong- tech has its place. But never forget how to live without it, because it isn't guaranteed to be there forever.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Newell said that piracy is a problem with service, not price. I can argue it's both in the case of GW.

It can certainly be a barrier. Though these days companies love to bleed you for more, but with a monthly sub. I'd be ok paying like $8/mo, which is like a codex and a half a year.

We've already seen what GW is capable of delivering for around that amount. Methinks you give them tok much credit. The quality is worth the price of FREE.

Well given you play the game with their rules it obviously has some value you.

Not really. I simply can't get people to pick up One Page Rules or something else as I don't have the time to create a group or sway the current one.

The value is using the models I have. Then again you defend their removal via "jUsT uSe As SoMeThInG eLsE" or "YoU aRe PoWeR gAmEr" so I'm not sure what you know about value.

Dudeface wrote:
I altered the quote because he said some junk I didn't read

Weren't you going to go leave us to our whining? Bugging us about 'upholding forum rules' or somecrap while not even able to uphold your own word.

You also ignored all the points I made, which to me just says you're here to troll and stir up reactions.

To anyone else reading this, stop responding to this gnat, he's not even making good points and barely knows how to spell in half of his posts.

I think one could also say the change in economics as it relates to music killed the piracy of certain music. For instance, Metallica getting all butthurt over their music being used and obtained illegally (Taking literal teens to court) was a stupid joke anyway. Musicians make 90% of their revenue from contracts and merch sales. No one gives a crap about CD's being pirated, because that literally only hurts the distributor, who already purchased the unsold inventory. Metallica and others knew this.

Which lead to System of a Down making a CD that literally read "Steal this CD" on the cover, because they couldn't care less about the CD sales, they only cared about people buying tickets to shows, and tshirts, and stuff that can't be pirated.

GW is in a self made prison. They've created a product that is easily pirated, and they cannot or will not take the very simple step of making them digital download only, or behind a digital paywall, to stop their piracy problem. DND Beyond basically stopped people from downloading PDFs of old books, because it's easier to pay 20USD and get the full new and up to date book, that synergizes with the handy app. GW needs to take a lesson from WotC and make their game Digital Download friendly.

And cue all the grognards arguing out of spite because they want to feel the glossy paper inbetween their booger hooks.