Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?
I for one would love if they rolled with the current warcry theme and made the next WQ about a team up of various chaos types infiltrating a Seraphon city to plunder stuff.
Because warcry has great character models, and I would just looooove to see new Saurus warriors in whatever form.
And of course the novelty of 'good guys' being the 'bad guys'.
There is the whole thing about a crashed Seraphon spaceship being at the center of the current area Warcry is focusing on in Ghur. Team of "heroes" going in to loot and plunder. Give the Seraphon the same treatment Soulblight got with CC. New skinks, saurus, and new slann as the "big bad". Heroes are character versions of various Warcry bands.
frankelee wrote: Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?
They don't want to make a game with endless replayability, because where's the long term profit in that? The same reason why there is no option to create your own heroes in any WHQ game, to my knowledge. That's my theory anyway, for what it's worth.
Advanced Heroquest was their peak game for replayability. Thanks Jervis!
I think the Pandemic and the fall out of said Pandemic are what has resulted in the quick death of Cursed City. The two expansions we are seeing would I imagine be 4 or more if the world didn't have the monumental change brought on by Covid-19, each with the models that it was designed around.
Sadly the timing is bad, and GW have had to adjust it quickly and in a way that wouldn't lose them too much money.
It's ironic...The game is themed around vampires and the undead. Each announcement from this year keeps bringing this disaster of a game back from the grave, only to kill it again before anyone realizes it's back.
Thinking on it you know how GW never likes to discount a kit when its out? I wonder if the original plan was going to see the Soulblight battletome land later compared to the release of CC. So CC would come in advance of the big range update or right alongside.
However because it came out of order GW's policy of never discounting trumps the fact that the models are already released for CC. So they "can't" discount them now because of their internal policy.
It occurs to me that one of the chief tenets of the expansions I worked on for the 40kRPGs was the assumption that the only products the player owned were the core rulebook and the book they were currently reading. Even the multi-part adventures split over 3 books still could be played without the other parts. References to other expansions were rare and were always done as a suggestion for expanding the game, never as a pre-requisite. This created all sorts of headaches, especially in the earlier games, as you'd need to dedicate page space to repeating rules that were 'core rules' in more recent games, but it did mean that outside of needing the rulebook, every expansion could stand as its own expansion to the main rules without requiring anything beyond that.
Seems GW didn't get the memo with Cursed City, but given what a gak fight this game has been since the start I shouldn't really be surprised. This is a perfect microcosm of GW's good idea/bad execution modus operandi.
frankelee wrote: Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?
A lot of that is drive by nostalgia. It's not Blood Bowl or Space Hulk - it doesn't do so well in the era of modern game design. Shadows of Brimstone comes close but even that makes many concessions to modern design.
Overread wrote: Thinking on it you know how GW never likes to discount a kit when its out? I wonder if the original plan was going to see the Soulblight battletome land later compared to the release of CC. So CC would come in advance of the big range update or right alongside.
However because it came out of order GW's policy of never discounting trumps the fact that the models are already released for CC. So they "can't" discount them now because of their internal policy.
I mean, they *could* with a bundle rebox. They've done that for years now time with Start Collecting/Combat Patrol Boxes (forgot the AoS version's name).
I for one would love if they rolled with the current warcry theme and made the next WQ about a team up of various chaos types infiltrating a Seraphon city to plunder stuff.
Because warcry has great character models, and I would just looooove to see new Saurus warriors in whatever form.
And of course the novelty of 'good guys' being the 'bad guys'.
There is the whole thing about a crashed Seraphon spaceship being at the center of the current area Warcry is focusing on in Ghur. Team of "heroes" going in to loot and plunder. Give the Seraphon the same treatment Soulblight got with CC. New skinks, saurus, and new slann as the "big bad". Heroes are character versions of various Warcry bands.
Yes, this is exactly what I want. It would also be fun as i think it would be relatively easy to be able to scratch build pyramids and terrain to make such a board a much more 3D affair. I always though the custome Blackstone fortress boards with 3D printed looked amazing - but I think trying to do the same for cursed city was too much work for everyone but the most dedicated, and they seemed to have other projects lol.
I don't get this constant complaint about the cost of minis.
This is a board game. You're not playing it in a tourney setting. Or even down at your local GW. So if you need dire wolves, bats, skeletons, PC models, or whatever for the expansions? Just buy stuff from any # of other companies. Play the game, enjoy it for whatever it is & muse about how/why GW screwed it all up.
ccs wrote: I don't get this constant complaint about the cost of minis.
This is a board game. You're not playing it in a tourney setting. Or even down at your local GW. So if you need dire wolves, bats, skeletons, PC models, or whatever for the expansions? Just buy stuff from any # of other companies. Play the game, enjoy it for whatever it is & muse about how/why GW screwed it all up.
But the USP of GW games are having the best minis in the business. And hence some of the best table presence. The reality is it's not a good enough game to stand alone without them. It's not bad, don't get me wrong. But there are *so* many games released these days. If a different company put out CC with standees it'd sink without a trace.
Also as fans of GW many of us actually want the GW models themselves. Sure you can play with any models and GW has a good number of alternative 3rd party models being made in the market. That still doesn't mean we don't want to work with the actual official models in plastic.
I did wonder if there was a way the wording could mean the end of Ulfenkarn, the Cursed City storyline with Radukar. But maybe something more in the Fantasy run of WHQuest before cycling back to sci fi..
But not sure their wording leaves room for anything more..
Eh I wouldn't read too far into it - the community staff are not much more informed than the store staff from what we've seen. So unless the next Quest is right around the corner, they won't know anything about a future release.
Even if they did they'd not be allowed to talk about it so would deny it and wouldn't use words to suggest it was a thing until they are allowed too.
I think the biggest fear here is now I don't have any belief that GW will support (let alone publish) Warhammer Quest-branded games in the future because of the Cursed City farce. Will new Quest games come out (40k or otherwise)? Will they be one-and-done's without any warning? Even worse, we'll never know why this happened, so any reticence on their part will remain a complete mystery to us.
SKR.HH wrote: It's just baffling that GW misses so many opportunities.
As I've been saying for years: GW never misses an opportunity to miss and opportunity!
ccs wrote: I don't get this constant complaint about the cost of minis.
This is a board game. You're not playing it in a tourney setting. Or even down at your local GW. So if you need dire wolves, bats, skeletons, PC models, or whatever for the expansions? Just buy stuff from any # of other companies. Play the game, enjoy it for whatever it is & muse about how/why GW screwed it all up.
I mean of course people will. Its only a matter of days before we see bundled 3d printed knockoffs all over etsy.
As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.
frankelee wrote: Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?
A lot of that is drive by nostalgia. It's not Blood Bowl or Space Hulk - it doesn't do so well in the era of modern game design. Shadows of Brimstone comes close but even that makes many concessions to modern design.
Yeah... no. I'm gonna disagree, people don't think this game is great because it reminds them of their youth during the Summer of Love and all that, it's just a genuine home run of game design. Not everybody's going to like it, same for every game, but it's still quite playable today, and frankly it's a considerably better design than Cursed City. Not that a new version probably recreating Warhammer Quest shouldn't get some updates and refining, there's plenty of room to update it and improve, it's just that it was and still is a great game. And if GW weren't insane, they would update and refine it and put it out as a long term product like Blood Bowl.
That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!
frankelee wrote: As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.
frankelee wrote: As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.
That's more or less the gist of it, yeah.
And get two well written playable games for the price of one.
deano2099 wrote: That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!
I’ve just bought (old) Heroquest to play with my kids so that’s what probably fuels the sales of the new one… a lot of folks my age got into gaming through heroquest and now have kids the same age and Heroquest is back to bring the next generation into the hobby.
I’m hoping by the time we’ve worked through Heroquest we can get cracking on Warhammer Quest 95. I think the big thing about original Quest is that it really is like being given the keys to a whole world to play in, the original role play book was huge in scope. If people have only played it with the cards and original box contents it’s only the tip of the ice berg, the game really is best when you add a GM and let rip with all the extra monsters and treasures.
frankelee wrote: As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.
Because a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear that placing a nonGW model within a certain proximity of an official Citadel(tm) model will cause your entire collection to spontaneously combust.
Arbitrator wrote: Because a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear that placing a nonGW model within a certain proximity of an official Citadel(tm) model will cause your entire collection to spontaneously combust.
That's a feature, not a bug. When I was getting into the GWaddiction hobby, especially competing in Golden Demons in the 90's, they drill "Use only GW models and GW parts for your hobby" into your head. It was very hard for me to break after 20+ years of making sure everything was GW-compliant.
I was at a Kill Team tournament once and I was using metal Hybrids for my "traitor Guard" (this was years before the GSC reboot) and my opponent almost refused to play me for using "non-GW models". The organizer had to tell the kid that my GW models were genuine (and older than my opponent).
deano2099 wrote: That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!
I’ve just bought (old) Heroquest to play with my kids so that’s what probably fuels the sales of the new one… a lot of folks my age got into gaming through heroquest and now have kids the same age and Heroquest is back to bring the next generation into the hobby.
I’m hoping by the time we’ve worked through Heroquest we can get cracking on Warhammer Quest 95. I think the big thing about original Quest is that it really is like being given the keys to a whole world to play in, the original role play book was huge in scope. If people have only played it with the cards and original box contents it’s only the tip of the ice berg, the game really is best when you add a GM and let rip with all the extra monsters and treasures.
Yeah, but then "Everything is better with a GM" (TM) - at that point the comparison isn't with board games but with RPGs. Is WHQ a better RPG than D&D, Pathfinder, etc?
(I genuinely don't know, have never been blessed by a good GM to get into those sorts of games)
I don’t know about better, it has a different focus. Like an ‘arcade mode’ RPG that concentrates on the best, action packed parts of those games; going into dungeons to duff up monsters and nick their treasures. It is a hybrid between board game and RPG and as is therefore awesome.
Only playing WHQ 95 with the cards and box monsters is like only playing 40K with the little scenarios in the starter boxes, it’s not really enough to make an assessment of the game overall.
deano2099 wrote: That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!
Yeah that makes sense, I'm a big fan of Descent 2nd ed. too, and yes the rules there definitely show a generational upgrade in design over something like Warhammer Quest. If you did WHQ again you'd want to add a hand of cards for use as special abilities like Gloomhaven, you'd do well to add a fatigue system in that let players do more in a turn in they choose to like Descent, designers have definitely figured out ways to add more decision points and strategy to these games. But I found it's still a lot of fun to play a campaign, slay orcs, find treasure, do stuff in town, and so on. That whole out-of-the-dungeon story side really grips my imagination.
Arbitrator wrote: Because a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear that placing a nonGW model within a certain proximity of an official Citadel(tm) model will cause your entire collection to spontaneously combust.
That's a feature, not a bug. When I was getting into the GWaddiction hobby, especially competing in Golden Demons in the 90's, they drill "Use only GW models and GW parts for your hobby" into your head. It was very hard for me to break after 20+ years of making sure everything was GW-compliant.
I was at a Kill Team tournament once and I was using metal Hybrids for my "traitor Guard" (this was years before the GSC reboot) and my opponent almost refused to play me for using "non-GW models". The organizer had to tell the kid that my GW models were genuine (and older than my opponent).
So yeah, I totally understand the resistance.
I noticed that "always use only official GW products" line when I was a kid in the 90s and thought it was pretty cringe then. Sounded like a shampoo commercial trying to keep you from buying Brand X. And probably 999 out of every 1,000 games of Warhammer were played in somebody's basement or dining room back then, or maybe the back room of your gaming store if they had the space to have tables, so they didn't really even have the chance to strong arm you into believing their crass commercialism. I feel like the internet kind of messed up the freedom and DIY spirit of hobbies, suddenly you had kids on message boards telling other kids their game experiences weren't really as valid because they didn't play rules as written, or used proxy models, or whatever else. Somebody reminding you, "you know you could never use those models in an OFFICIAL GW TOURNAMENT™." The internet encourages 'the rich kid in town talking down to you' of attitude in people.
If you did WHQ again you'd want to add a hand of cards for use as special abilities like Gloomhaven
Yeah, absolutely not. It works well enough for Gloomhaven, where the multi-faceted card puzzle _is_ the game, but I'm definitely tired of GW trying to flog cards as a 'supplemental' add on.
You can just have special abilities as part of the character like a normal fantasy game, with whatever limits or resource usage are appropriate to the setting and game.
frankelee wrote: As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.
frankelee wrote: Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?
A lot of that is drive by nostalgia. It's not Blood Bowl or Space Hulk - it doesn't do so well in the era of modern game design. Shadows of Brimstone comes close but even that makes many concessions to modern design.
Yeah... no. I'm gonna disagree, people don't think this game is great because it reminds them of their youth during the Summer of Love and all that, it's just a genuine home run of game design. Not everybody's going to like it, same for every game, but it's still quite playable today, and frankly it's a considerably better design than Cursed City. Not that a new version probably recreating Warhammer Quest shouldn't get some updates and refining, there's plenty of room to update it and improve, it's just that it was and still is a great game. And if GW weren't insane, they would update and refine it and put it out as a long term product like Blood Bowl.
I think that GW is still in many ways stuck in a mindset of being a model company over a game company. I think there is an incredibly amount of untouched potential if they would focus on using their strong IP to make good games. Cursed City is flawed. It might have been pretty ok if COVID didn't mess up support. But think about how nice it would be to see a modern dungeon delver with the Warhammer IP. Honestly, a gloomhaven like WH game would sell insanely well.
If you did WHQ again you'd want to add a hand of cards for use as special abilities like Gloomhaven
Yeah, absolutely not. It works well enough for Gloomhaven, where the multi-faceted card puzzle _is_ the game, but I'm definitely tired of GW trying to flog cards as a 'supplemental' add on.
You can just have special abilities as part of the character like a normal fantasy game, with whatever limits or resource usage are appropriate to the setting and game.
I can't justify anything GW does, but I mean in a game design vacuum. We can all agree heroes need abilities, but I do like the card route for this, Descent uses them too, I think you can do more with cards. Players can have them and play them, keeping track of their use as a commodity, you can actively use graphics on a card, showing an attack which hits three specific squares relative to where your barbarian is now, and that sort of thing. I haven't created anything, but having thought about it, I imagine a newer version of WHQ where you get six or so cards to play per dungeon and they have cool super attacks/abilities, or they serve as your "hero points" you can spend them to auto-dodge an enemy attack, or take a rest and recover wounds. But they should be included in the core game, like Descent does.
We'll probably get the price today or tomorrow but yeah I'd be expecting about the same price point.
Hard to tell if this one will sell out as fast or not; in theory everyone who jumped on the first one will want the second; of course those of us who missed the first won't even bother with the second :(
I really hope we one day learn the full story of what the freaking heck happened with CC. Not rumour or guesswork but an actual factual account of why its been such a massively botched series of releases through no fault of the product itself; but purely its supply and delivery to market.
Overread wrote: I really hope we one day learn the full story of what the freaking heck happened with CC. Not rumour or guesswork but an actual factual account of why its been such a massively botched series of releases through no fault of the product itself; but purely its supply and delivery to market.
The true tale is probably more mundane than we’d likely imagine, but I’d also like to learn the full story.
Overread wrote: I really hope we one day learn the full story of what the freaking heck happened with CC. Not rumour or guesswork but an actual factual account of why its been such a massively botched series of releases through no fault of the product itself; but purely its supply and delivery to market.
The true tale is probably more mundane than we’d likely imagine, but I’d also like to learn the full story.
I would guess it's a tale of bean counters and supply chains.
That's exactly what it means. It might even be that stores that get 'Direct' products can't get this one.
Even if your store can get you Direct Only items, you should probably ask them how that works. I don't know if they can get them on pre-order or can only order once the product is released. The latter is probably way too late. I don't think GW gambled on stock on this expansion and will have a small print run that sells out very quickly.
If you want the expansion, it's probably ill advised to try your luck with third parties or wait any amount of time. Your best bet is to pre-order straight from GW the moment it goes up.
Dread Master wrote: I really hope we haven’t seen the last of Warhammer Quest with the whole Cursed City debacle…
I reckon if the numbers for Blackstone Fortress are good, GW is going to base any future plans for Warhammer Quest on that instead of Cursed City. Maybe apply some lessons learned, but they should be aware that if Cursed City didn't do as well as they would have liked, it has nothing to do with the customers.
I figure that if we end up not getting another Warhammer Quest for a while, it's GW cutting down development and focusing on core products because of the current economic situation rather than Cursed City's performance.
Given the number of models represented in each expansion box for Cursed City, I'm guessing they rolled a few expansions together and streamlined them compared to what the original plan may have been.
Global Pandemic is what I would attribute any issues with Cursed City to rather than player interest.
Dread Master wrote: I really hope we haven’t seen the last of Warhammer Quest with the whole Cursed City debacle…
I reckon if the numbers for Blackstone Fortress are good, GW is going to base any future plans for Warhammer Quest on that instead of Cursed City. Maybe apply some lessons learned, but they should be aware that if Cursed City didn't do as well as they would have liked, it has nothing to do with the customers.
I can see them going as far as releasing another set of expansions for BSF. The core game is still in print, it's proven the more popular game, no need to make another sci-fi version, just go back to that.
Dread Master wrote: I really hope we haven’t seen the last of Warhammer Quest with the whole Cursed City debacle…
I reckon if the numbers for Blackstone Fortress are good, GW is going to base any future plans for Warhammer Quest on that instead of Cursed City. Maybe apply some lessons learned, but they should be aware that if Cursed City didn't do as well as they would have liked, it has nothing to do with the customers.
I figure that if we end up not getting another Warhammer Quest for a while, it's GW cutting down development and focusing on core products because of the current economic situation rather than Cursed City's performance.
I'd hope for the next 40k-themed Warhammer Quest to take the innovations from WQ:CC like variable critical damage and the levelling-up system.
But the writing, testing, artwork and printed content presumably take up a significant amount of effort compared with releasing another codex/army, for a much less certain return.
deano2099 wrote: I can see them going as far as releasing another set of expansions for BSF. The core game is still in print, it's proven the more popular game, no need to make another sci-fi version, just go back to that.
I can't see them doing so when BSF storyline is pretty much complete, anyway. And honestly, I'd prefer GW to do something new, boardgame based on Inquisitor or Rogue Trader scouting unknown frontier, perhaps, something that would give them excuse to explore fringes of the universe further. Or base the game during the Great Crusade and show how pre-primarch early Imperium looked like. Or hell, do pre-unification Terra as setting. Imperium Nihilus. That abandoned Second Imperium storyline from FW. War of the False Primarch. Anything, just something original...
If we're getting another 40k Quest IMO it HAS to be based on the Crime novels.
It would be ace playing some kind of city spawling mystery where you either work as a team to uncover the truth or try and misdirect each other to be lone survivor of a heist to keep the loot.
deano2099 wrote: I can see them going as far as releasing another set of expansions for BSF. The core game is still in print, it's proven the more popular game, no need to make another sci-fi version, just go back to that.
I can't see them doing so when BSF storyline is pretty much complete, anyway. And honestly, I'd prefer GW to do something new, boardgame based on Inquisitor or Rogue Trader scouting unknown frontier, perhaps, something that would give them excuse to explore fringes of the universe further. Or base the game during the Great Crusade and show how pre-primarch early Imperium looked like. Or hell, do pre-unification Terra as setting. Imperium Nihilus. That abandoned Second Imperium storyline from FW. War of the False Primarch. Anything, just something original...
An expansion to BSF doesn't necessarily mean still being set on a Blackstone Fortress with that storyline. Most of the heroes and enemies could be reused, throw in some tiles for a new setting, some appropriate gear cards.
It seems to me like there's a reason they've kept the base game around so long and reprinted it even after releasing and selling out of all the prior expansions.
I think they'd benefit from the very un-GW thing to do and create a solid core ruleset that they can reuse over the years so tiles, characters and campaigns are all interchangeable and old ones can still be used when they release a new box. Then it wouldn't be a question of whether you get a new game or an expansion of Blackstone Fortress. You could just use your favorite Ratling tag team in the new game or grab some new characters to replay the old campaign. Shame that's not something we can expect from GW.
Geifer wrote: I think they'd benefit from the very un-GW thing to do and create a solid core ruleset that they can reuse over the years so tiles, characters and campaigns are all interchangeable and old ones can still be used when they release a new box. Then it wouldn't be a question of whether you get a new game or an expansion of Blackstone Fortress. You could just use your favorite Ratling tag team in the new game or grab some new characters to replay the old campaign. Shame that's not something we can expect from GW.
It is a shame as the hero and monster cards from Silver Tower and Shadows over Hammerhal were pretty interchangeable.
KidCthulhu wrote: Not unless there's multiple suspects to paint and a mechanic that makes the killer unknown each game. Clue 40,000?
Yeah there could easily be a rule set and mechanic that did something along these lines.
Or anything based in the Crime or Horror type setting would be good.
Although the BSF storyline is “done” I’m sure they could easily move into a bit more with it. Add new characters but make all the prior ones usable too with a new WHQ box (maybe even put out the old models in an expansion as a booster for your crew you make or whatever, money an all that..)
Geifer wrote: I think they'd benefit from the very un-GW thing to do and create a solid core ruleset that they can reuse over the years so tiles, characters and campaigns are all interchangeable and old ones can still be used when they release a new box. Then it wouldn't be a question of whether you get a new game or an expansion of Blackstone Fortress. You could just use your favorite Ratling tag team in the new game or grab some new characters to replay the old campaign. Shame that's not something we can expect from GW.
It is a shame as the hero and monster cards from Silver Tower and Shadows over Hammerhal were pretty interchangeable.
That's the worst part in my opinion. We know GW's designers aren't oblivious to the idea, but whoever calls the shots doesn't see merit in it.
From the point of view of the customers Cursed city has been a bit of a s***show but from GW's point of view it's been a massive hit. The biggest problem they have had with the game is it's massive popularity. Even an expansion that is extremely expensive for it's contents, requires you to own the other expansion and a bunch of expensive minis sold separately, still managed to sell out in no time at all.
Fantasy Warhammer Quest is not going anywhere. Do a Skaven themed box and people will come in droves to buy it all over again.
Chikout wrote: From the point of view of the customers Cursed city has been a bit of a s***show but from GW's point of view it's been a massive hit. The biggest problem they have had with the game is it's massive popularity. Even an expansion that is extremely expensive for it's contents, requires you to own the other expansion and a bunch of expensive minis sold separately, still managed to sell out in no time at all.
Fantasy Warhammer Quest is not going anywhere. Do a Skaven themed box and people will come in droves to buy it all over again.
So why is this the last expansion, when clearly the base game was setting up for other expansions?
It's been a "hit" but seems like it massively underperformed compared to Blackstone Fortress (and was critically far less acclaimed)
Chikout wrote: From the point of view of the customers Cursed city has been a bit of a s***show but from GW's point of view it's been a massive hit. The biggest problem they have had with the game is it's massive popularity. Even an expansion that is extremely expensive for it's contents, requires you to own the other expansion and a bunch of expensive minis sold separately, still managed to sell out in no time at all.
Fantasy Warhammer Quest is not going anywhere. Do a Skaven themed box and people will come in droves to buy it all over again.
So why is this the last expansion, when clearly the base game was setting up for other expansions?
It's been a "hit" but seems like it massively underperformed compared to Blackstone Fortress (and was critically far less acclaimed)
Botched launch only reignites with every new expansion. They are probably going to shelve the idea for a couple of cycles (could be months, years, hours depending upon need), and then bring it out under a new name later once the tarnished reputation has had a chance to fade.
Honestly I'd say the problem isn't on the consumer side, the problem with any continuation is why CC failed on so many fronts from GW and why GW has felt the need to mothball it. The reasons for those fail points is critical to if they will revisit it again.
It could really have just been a series of mistakes, problems and covid issues that plagued it and CC was something that took a fall to allow other things to go ahead as planned. So GW might be really annoyed with the disaster and that means a good chance they will revisit the idea.
It could be internal politics in GW that didn't like the idea or wanted it to stick with 40K (marines) or other franchises or something. At which point continuation might be hard
It might be internal battles for resources and whoever is in charge of CC just can't secure resources and production slots and such and thus their project has had more issues and thus might die off.
There's a host of potential reasons for why CC has failed, but its pretty much all on GW's side of things (even if its not their fault its on "their" side of the relationship, not the customers side).
If anything I'd say that big demands for most stock and its expansions (messed up as they were) selling out as well as they have, strongly suggests that there was a healthy amount of consumer interest.
But, they need that failure to stop stinging before they will return to the plan. They can try and rebrand it, again, but let the initial hate dissipate. I say hate as there are some people out there still very angry that they didn't get a copy in the first go around, and then too butthurt to order it with the rerelease.
Modern GW seems to want to develop a product, manufacture enough of it to ensure a sufficient profit at launch, but not so much that it will sit in warehouses (eating into profitability) or on store shelves (which eats into the percieved demand). Thereby furthering the FOMO mindset that will drive pre-orders of the next product so they can sell out of it as soon as possible.
Get it at launch or you probably won't get it at all.
Years ago GW realized that they make the biggest chunk of profit off their products in the first few weeks of release. This is the perfection of that model.
I don't think modern GW can actually afford to have production overproduce to hold stuff in storage in warehouses. I don't think they are opposed to longer term products and such (esp since GW's products typically don't devalue over time and if anything increase in value); its just that they really don't have the spare machines and production time to allow them much over-production without it impacting other currently in production products.
A combination of their market growing very suddenly; Covid and the power supply problems at their factory mean that their production system is only just keeping up in general and that's without considering them adding more lines of production and models.
So I think GW today is more open to a project that lasts longer on the shelf, they just really can't afford to lean into that kind of production very much.
Overread wrote: I don't think modern GW can actually afford to have production overproduce to hold stuff in storage in warehouses. I don't think they are opposed to longer term products and such (esp since GW's products typically don't devalue over time and if anything increase in value); its just that they really don't have the spare machines and production time to allow them much over-production without it impacting other currently in production products.
A combination of their market growing very suddenly; Covid and the power supply problems at their factory mean that their production system is only just keeping up in general and that's without considering them adding more lines of production and models.
So I think GW today is more open to a project that lasts longer on the shelf, they just really can't afford to lean into that kind of production very much.
On this? Last time I worked for them (around 12-14 years ago) they’d moved from manual orders to stores, to it being centrally determined. Not only did that save staff a job, and a headache of trying to predict what stock you need, it simplified production demands.
I mean, you’ve got 400 stores (number not intended to be accurate). And you know you want each to have a stock of say, 5 Space Marine Tactical Squads. You’ve come to that number by analysing sales data over a wide period and from every store. So every week, you ensure your production facilities are churning out 5x400=2,000 Space Marine Tactical Boxes.
Then, you link that predated demand to actual sales via electronic sales wizardry I’m poorly explaining. If Store A only sold 2, their stock order gets 2.
This allowed them to streamline and better organise warehousing, and any short stock is counter balanced by the in-store order point, so if I’m of a mood to buy day, 10 Impulsors? I can order them in-store, get them delivered for free. Customer mostly satisfied (unless I needed them quicker than that), and store retains its standard stock for others. Also works when an item has sold through in a given week.
It may have changed since those days, but I feel it’s at least an interesting, if not necessarily accurate, bit of info.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Expansions are MTO from 17th-27th December.
URGH the worst time to do a limited product made to order. I really wish they'd done a "ok so they sold out, we will do it in late January/February" instead.
Overread wrote: URGH the worst time to do a limited product made to order. I really wish they'd done a "ok so they sold out, we will do it in late January/February" instead.
Very glad they are doing it though!
I'm a bit more annoyed that we still have slaves to darkness AND imperial guard to get full releases. We've seen all the models, and now they're just waiting to be released. Plus then we have the world eaters, etc. I get that its the holidays and so they're not big on releasing big things, but this is a painful drip feed of releases
Haha, oh that is hilarious. At least GW have a sense of humour... just disguised as corporate greed.
The 'Warhammer Quest' series/brand/label is too well known for GW to mothball, especially after the success that was Black stone Fortress. I imagine we'll see the next setting pop up sooner rather than later, the expansion method may be different however, but I think GW know that it (like all of their products) sells itself.
Question now is where the setting of the next one will be, my bet would be in the 30,000 setting.
I added an extra large painting handle. I needed one anyway, and it's only(!) $4 more expensive than from where I'd have otherwise purchased from, so if I look at that as my shipping fee it's a little more bearable...
I can order both next week, but £60 plus whatever models I’d need to buy in the future is a big hefty, so need informed opinions.
It's extra missions for a game I enjoy but the best thing imo is the additional enemy unit and encounter cards that can be used with the base game.
Some models are easier to proxy than others,(e.g. I'm using the sorcerer from the Khagra's Ravagers Underworlds warband as a necromancer) so you don't need all the official models for the enemies for them to still look good without being too out of place.
For me it's worth it but it is obv expensive for what you get in the boxes. Just take into account that if you you decide later on to buy them then you'll be forced to pay scalper prices!
ArminTamzarian wrote: My order also still says pending. Did anyone receive the new expansion yet?
This order wave is made to order; so considering its cardstock and GW don't make that in house this means they will likely remain pending until the order window closes. Then GW will order it in one big batch from overseas and ship them when they arrive .
ArminTamzarian wrote: My order also still says pending. Did anyone receive the new expansion yet?
This order wave is made to order; so considering its cardstock and GW don't make that in house this means they will likely remain pending until the order window closes. Then GW will order it in one big batch from overseas and ship them when they arrive .
I ordered mine on December 3, right when it went up, not on the second made to order round.
ArminTamzarian wrote: My order also still says pending. Did anyone receive the new expansion yet?
I got mine on Friday and I also didn't get a notification from GW that it had shipped. Like you I was in on the initial pre-order and not the Made to Order. I'm in D.C., so hopefully you'll get yours soon.
I'm not bothering to watch this past the first five minutes, but anyone who wants to is welcome to try to figure out what the SECRET REASON!!!11!! was.
I think he said it was simply a case of a massive feck up on the supply side- they didn't order enough, reorder would take a while and bizarrely they decided not to communicate this but pretended it didn't happen..
I don't know about that. I had a great time listening to Peachy's point of view on things behind the scenes in his shows. He's having ten times as much fun now as he has ever had for GW. The guy is a gentleman of the first degree, and his take on things is perfectly summed up in- Yeah, it's exactly what we thought was going on, but GW was too high off their own supply to just come out, make a simple apology for a genuine mistake, and drive on.
The biggest take away is the look behind the curtain on decisions..
a decision like that in all probability cost someone their job. That's why it was buried in that six foot hole that it was buried under. Between the asshat manager's training and attitudes, and the back door lack of business acumen and ineptitude, it's no wonder why we are seeing a price hike every couple of months, now.
Confirms what we thought - the expansions were originally meant to have figures and be the launch boxes for those figures, but for reasons still unknown they dropped support for it and so released those figures as part of the Soulblight stuff instead.
No explanation as to why there were stock issues in the first place and why support was originally dropped though.
No, it's a video where the subject comes up, and a former/recent studio staffer says what he thinks very likely happened. His opinion is worth somewhat more than a random internet person's (since this has happened before, though he wasn't present on this occasion and therefore doesn't know for certain).
The title is a bit misleading on this one (it's not a hidden secret revealed, and they talk about loads of other stuff), afraid that's not unusual for youtube vids. I enjoy these meandering vids whilst painting, and the peak behind the curtain Peachy provides. He is generally positive about his former employer, but occasionally notes stuff that he doesn't think was done/handled particularly well.
We didn't know before that the expansions were meant to have figures and be a pre-launch for the Soulblight range. I know a lot of us suspected it, but others argued vehemently against it, and this is the first time it's been confirmed by someone who would have known.
There's not much other solid info in the video (you can take what you want from the other host talking about production problems in China and Peachy nodding along but that's all a bit questionable). It's an interesting enough chat, but you won't learn anything more for certain than that one fact.
On the whole, I'm impressed with the figures for the game, but is it worth buying from the shop, or should I just wait for it to hit the second hand E bay market?
I do see a few things I would add to the game, and I can also see the figures in a Mordheim rules setting that would be a ton of fun.
A week or so ago, I FINALLY saw the Father/ Daughter vampire hunter team in the local shop. Don't know if they have rules set's for them, but at the 55.00 pricetag, for two guys, when the Zombies are at 60.00... o.O
Let's just say that there has got to be something in the water.
In the end, I've seen the game over on YouTube at Gorilla Games being played, so I see it really IS a game, but I'm not so much getting a Warhammer Quest vibe out of it.
For those of you who have it, is it worth buying full price, or is it something that can wait till the second hand market?
Grot 6 wrote: For those of you who have it, is it worth buying full price, or is it something that can wait till the second hand market?
The basic gameplay is fine, but the missions themselves leave a lot to be desired. There's a lot of grinding the same quest over and over to reach a threshold to play the interesting boss fights.
A week or so ago, I FINALLY saw the Father/ Daughter vampire hunter team in the local shop. Don't know if they have rules set's for them, but at the 55.00 pricetag, for two guys, when the Zombies are at 60.00... o.O
Let's just say that there has got to be something in the water.
Price: for a 2 pack, that's a bit cheaper than most single characters....
They are nice models. I painted them up last year for a D&D game.
Rules: yes they have rules. They're part of the Cities of Sigmar.
Without looking it up I couldn't tell you what exact book/pdf/WD etc they were in (it's obviously not the CoS tome). I just printed their sheet from Whapedia.
Rules: yes they have rules. They're part of the Cities of Sigmar.
Without looking it up I couldn't tell you what exact book/pdf/WD etc they were in (it's obviously not the CoS tome). I just printed their sheet from Whapedia.
Pretty sure Grot 6 meant "for Cursed City" with the rules bit.
Rules: yes they have rules. They're part of the Cities of Sigmar.
Without looking it up I couldn't tell you what exact book/pdf/WD etc they were in (it's obviously not the CoS tome). I just printed their sheet from Whapedia.
Pretty sure Grot 6 meant "for Cursed City" with the rules bit.
Maybe in one of the expansions.
I can let you know in a few months.
Platuan4th wrote: They do not. Morvahl(Death Wizard) is the only official additional hero.
Yup. And the whole conspiracy theory 'they were meant for CC' was idiotic to begin with, as they only oh, have completely different sprues, bases, parts, and all the other stuff from CC minis, never mind the pesky detail of both of them basically duplicating the Witch Hunter from the base CC in looks and loadout, never mind each other. No tabletop game in GW history had three virtually identical copy-paste protagonists (hell, even BA termies from Space Hulk show more look/gear variation) but suuure, they were ""surely"" for CC
Platuan4th wrote: They do not. Morvahl(Death Wizard) is the only official additional hero.
Yup. And the whole conspiracy theory 'they were meant for CC' was idiotic to begin with, as they only oh, have completely different sprues, bases, parts, and all the other stuff from CC minis, never mind the pesky detail of both of them basically duplicating the Witch Hunter from the base CC in looks and loadout, never mind each other. No tabletop game in GW history had three virtually identical copy-paste protagonists (hell, even BA termies from Space Hulk show more look/gear variation) but suuure, they were ""surely"" for CC
The conspiracy theory that an ex GW designer just confirmed?
Platuan4th wrote: They do not. Morvahl(Death Wizard) is the only official additional hero.
Yup. And the whole conspiracy theory 'they were meant for CC' was idiotic to begin with, as they only oh, have completely different sprues, bases, parts, and all the other stuff from CC minis, never mind the pesky detail of both of them basically duplicating the Witch Hunter from the base CC in looks and loadout, never mind each other. No tabletop game in GW history had three virtually identical copy-paste protagonists (hell, even BA termies from Space Hulk show more look/gear variation) but suuure, they were ""surely"" for CC
The conspiracy theory that an ex GW designer just confirmed?
He confirmed that he heard the same rumours and gossip as everybody else:
Patriarch wrote: No, it's a video where the subject comes up, and a former/recent studio staffer says what he thinks very likely happened. His opinion is worth somewhat more than a random internet person's (since this has happened before, though he wasn't present on this occasion and therefore doesn't know for certain).
The title is a bit misleading on this one (it's not a hidden secret revealed, and they talk about loads of other stuff), afraid that's not unusual for youtube vids. I enjoy these meandering vids whilst painting, and the peak behind the curtain Peachy provides. He is generally positive about his former employer, but occasionally notes stuff that he doesn't think was done/handled particularly well.
I mean that's another solid hint in that direction, but not an actual confirmation or evidence.
Platuan4th wrote: They do not. Morvahl(Death Wizard) is the only official additional hero.
Yup. And the whole conspiracy theory 'they were meant for CC' was idiotic to begin with, as they only oh, have completely different sprues, bases, parts, and all the other stuff from CC minis, never mind the pesky detail of both of them basically duplicating the Witch Hunter from the base CC in looks and loadout, never mind each other. No tabletop game in GW history had three virtually identical copy-paste protagonists (hell, even BA termies from Space Hulk show more look/gear variation) but suuure, they were ""surely"" for CC
The conspiracy theory that an ex GW designer just confirmed?
He confirmed that he heard the same rumours and gossip as everybody else:
Patriarch wrote: No, it's a video where the subject comes up, and a former/recent studio staffer says what he thinks very likely happened. His opinion is worth somewhat more than a random internet person's (since this has happened before, though he wasn't present on this occasion and therefore doesn't know for certain).
The title is a bit misleading on this one (it's not a hidden secret revealed, and they talk about loads of other stuff), afraid that's not unusual for youtube vids. I enjoy these meandering vids whilst painting, and the peak behind the curtain Peachy provides. He is generally positive about his former employer, but occasionally notes stuff that he doesn't think was done/handled particularly well.
I mean that's another solid hint in that direction, but not an actual confirmation or evidence.
Go to 28 minutes in the video - Peachy isn't quoting rumours he literally says "I'll tell you exactly why that happened".
Yes but he was working right in their HQ in Nottingham. Whilst GW compartmentalises information a lot, he likely did pick up on why Cursed City had its huge mess. He might not have known in advance, but chances are he knows (or at least has a very good accurate based on actual information guess) on what happened.
Again, we're talking about the 2 CoS Witch Hunters, NOT the stuff actually in the expansions like Peachy is. There was a theory that they were made for CC, which the fact they aren't in either expansion puts to bed.
This and the fact that the base game is still for sale and in stock most places raises my hopes slightly for future White Dwarf mission(s) with included cards for heroes and/or enemy encounters. I'd love a slightly bigger roster of heroes.
Not a Cursed City player, but I did enjoy the Solitaire rules for Blackstone Fortress and feel this is a good thing. Having it as a quick download is quite handy.
I'd probably go for the Light of Eltharion, as its cool to have a ghost hunting the undead...
Oh ?? I missed those. On the Community page somewhere ?
Sadly not. White Dwarf(one of the 2019 issues) or the BSF 2019 Annual itself, which is worth getting if you have at least The Dreaded Ambull, or Escalation.
Oh ?? I missed those. On the Community page somewhere ?
Sadly not. White Dwarf(one of the 2019 issues) or the BSF 2019 Annual itself, which is worth getting if you have at least The Dreaded Ambull, or Escalation.
Thank you ! I'll have to see if I can find whichever issue or the Annual. Covid fractured our game group and I've been anxious to play this game.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hey, another expansion for Cursed City that you have to buy more minis for.
I got the impression that these were "nice to haves" if you already owned or proxied the models, but no-one expects to buy the models just for this. Same with the Blackstone Ork etc. There isn't enough meat in the extra rules to keep you interested beyond running a combat or two.
