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Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, alright. That's a wrap.

I wonder what this means for future WQ titles?

I for one would love if they rolled with the current warcry theme and made the next WQ about a team up of various chaos types infiltrating a Seraphon city to plunder stuff.

Because warcry has great character models, and I would just looooove to see new Saurus warriors in whatever form.

And of course the novelty of 'good guys' being the 'bad guys'.

There is the whole thing about a crashed Seraphon spaceship being at the center of the current area Warcry is focusing on in Ghur. Team of "heroes" going in to loot and plunder. Give the Seraphon the same treatment Soulblight got with CC. New skinks, saurus, and new slann as the "big bad". Heroes are character versions of various Warcry bands.

 frankelee wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?

They don't want to make a game with endless replayability, because where's the long term profit in that? The same reason why there is no option to create your own heroes in any WHQ game, to my knowledge. That's my theory anyway, for what it's worth.

Advanced Heroquest was their peak game for replayability. Thanks Jervis!

I think the Pandemic and the fall out of said Pandemic are what has resulted in the quick death of Cursed City. The two expansions we are seeing would I imagine be 4 or more if the world didn't have the monumental change brought on by Covid-19, each with the models that it was designed around.

Sadly the timing is bad, and GW have had to adjust it quickly and in a way that wouldn't lose them too much money.

It's ironic...The game is themed around vampires and the undead. Each announcement from this year keeps bringing this disaster of a game back from the grave, only to kill it again before anyone realizes it's back.

RIP Cursed City. You had such potential.

Thinking on it you know how GW never likes to discount a kit when its out? I wonder if the original plan was going to see the Soulblight battletome land later compared to the release of CC. So CC would come in advance of the big range update or right alongside.

However because it came out of order GW's policy of never discounting trumps the fact that the models are already released for CC. So they "can't" discount them now because of their internal policy.

It occurs to me that one of the chief tenets of the expansions I worked on for the 40k RPGs was the assumption that the only products the player owned were the core rulebook and the book they were currently reading. Even the multi-part adventures split over 3 books still could be played without the other parts. References to other expansions were rare and were always done as a suggestion for expanding the game, never as a pre-requisite. This created all sorts of headaches, especially in the earlier games, as you'd need to dedicate page space to repeating rules that were 'core rules' in more recent games, but it did mean that outside of needing the rulebook, every expansion could stand as its own expansion to the main rules without requiring anything beyond that.

Seems GW didn't get the memo with Cursed City, but given what a gak fight this game has been since the start I shouldn't really be surprised. This is a perfect microcosm of GW's good idea/bad execution modus operandi.


(And they release discounted bundles every year)

 frankelee wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?

A lot of that is drive by nostalgia. It's not Blood Bowl or Space Hulk - it doesn't do so well in the era of modern game design. Shadows of Brimstone comes close but even that makes many concessions to modern design.

 Overread wrote:
Thinking on it you know how GW never likes to discount a kit when its out? I wonder if the original plan was going to see the Soulblight battletome land later compared to the release of CC. So CC would come in advance of the big range update or right alongside.

However because it came out of order GW's policy of never discounting trumps the fact that the models are already released for CC. So they "can't" discount them now because of their internal policy.

I mean, they *could* with a bundle rebox. They've done that for years now time with Start Collecting/Combat Patrol Boxes (forgot the AoS version's name).

 silent25 wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, alright. That's a wrap.

I wonder what this means for future WQ titles?

I for one would love if they rolled with the current warcry theme and made the next WQ about a team up of various chaos types infiltrating a Seraphon city to plunder stuff.

Because warcry has great character models, and I would just looooove to see new Saurus warriors in whatever form.

And of course the novelty of 'good guys' being the 'bad guys'.

There is the whole thing about a crashed Seraphon spaceship being at the center of the current area Warcry is focusing on in Ghur. Team of "heroes" going in to loot and plunder. Give the Seraphon the same treatment Soulblight got with CC. New skinks, saurus, and new slann as the "big bad". Heroes are character versions of various Warcry bands.

Yes, this is exactly what I want. It would also be fun as i think it would be relatively easy to be able to scratch build pyramids and terrain to make such a board a much more 3D affair. I always though the custome Blackstone fortress boards with 3D printed looked amazing - but I think trying to do the same for cursed city was too much work for everyone but the most dedicated, and they seemed to have other projects lol.

Another (final) expansion with a pricy model requirement? No thanks. Guess it's time to put my copy of Nightwars on eBay.

I don't get this constant complaint about the cost of minis.
This is a board game. You're not playing it in a tourney setting. Or even down at your local GW. So if you need dire wolves, bats, skeletons, PC models, or whatever for the expansions? Just buy stuff from any # of other companies. Play the game, enjoy it for whatever it is & muse about how/why GW screwed it all up.

It's just baffling that GW misses so many opportunities.

I mean... what's the deal with making all the minis required available as a discount set? Call a Start Collecting CC or whatever...

In this case I still believe they dug their own grave.

ccs wrote:
I don't get this constant complaint about the cost of minis.
This is a board game. You're not playing it in a tourney setting. Or even down at your local GW. So if you need dire wolves, bats, skeletons, PC models, or whatever for the expansions? Just buy stuff from any # of other companies. Play the game, enjoy it for whatever it is & muse about how/why GW screwed it all up.

But the USP of GW games are having the best minis in the business. And hence some of the best table presence. The reality is it's not a good enough game to stand alone without them. It's not bad, don't get me wrong. But there are *so* many games released these days. If a different company put out CC with standees it'd sink without a trace.

Also as fans of GW many of us actually want the GW models themselves. Sure you can play with any models and GW has a good number of alternative 3rd party models being made in the market. That still doesn't mean we don't want to work with the actual official models in plastic.

I did wonder if there was a way the wording could mean the end of Ulfenkarn, the Cursed City storyline with Radukar. But maybe something more in the Fantasy run of WHQuest before cycling back to sci fi..
But not sure their wording leaves room for anything more..

Eh I wouldn't read too far into it - the community staff are not much more informed than the store staff from what we've seen. So unless the next Quest is right around the corner, they won't know anything about a future release.

Even if they did they'd not be allowed to talk about it so would deny it and wouldn't use words to suggest it was a thing until they are allowed too.

I think the biggest fear here is now I don't have any belief that GW will support (let alone publish) Warhammer Quest-branded games in the future because of the Cursed City farce. Will new Quest games come out (40k or otherwise)? Will they be one-and-done's without any warning? Even worse, we'll never know why this happened, so any reticence on their part will remain a complete mystery to us.

SKR.HH wrote:
It's just baffling that GW misses so many opportunities.

As I've been saying for years: GW never misses an opportunity to miss and opportunity!

ccs wrote:
I don't get this constant complaint about the cost of minis.
This is a board game. You're not playing it in a tourney setting. Or even down at your local GW. So if you need dire wolves, bats, skeletons, PC models, or whatever for the expansions? Just buy stuff from any # of other companies. Play the game, enjoy it for whatever it is & muse about how/why GW screwed it all up.

I mean of course people will. Its only a matter of days before we see bundled 3d printed knockoffs all over etsy.

Doesn't make it any less sumb.

As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deano2099 wrote:

 frankelee wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they can't remake the beloved original Warhammer Quest with all the things that actually made it beloved the way Shadows of Brimstone does? Is there a fear that if they make a product that's too good it'll put them out of business?

A lot of that is drive by nostalgia. It's not Blood Bowl or Space Hulk - it doesn't do so well in the era of modern game design. Shadows of Brimstone comes close but even that makes many concessions to modern design.

Yeah... no. I'm gonna disagree, people don't think this game is great because it reminds them of their youth during the Summer of Love and all that, it's just a genuine home run of game design. Not everybody's going to like it, same for every game, but it's still quite playable today, and frankly it's a considerably better design than Cursed City. Not that a new version probably recreating Warhammer Quest shouldn't get some updates and refining, there's plenty of room to update it and improve, it's just that it was and still is a great game. And if GW weren't insane, they would update and refine it and put it out as a long term product like Blood Bowl.

That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!

 frankelee wrote:
As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.

That's more or less the gist of it, yeah.

 Albertorius wrote:

 frankelee wrote:
As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.

That's more or less the gist of it, yeah.

And get two well written playable games for the price of one.

deano2099 wrote:
That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!

I’ve just bought (old) Heroquest to play with my kids so that’s what probably fuels the sales of the new one… a lot of folks my age got into gaming through heroquest and now have kids the same age and Heroquest is back to bring the next generation into the hobby.

I’m hoping by the time we’ve worked through Heroquest we can get cracking on Warhammer Quest 95. I think the big thing about original Quest is that it really is like being given the keys to a whole world to play in, the original role play book was huge in scope. If people have only played it with the cards and original box contents it’s only the tip of the ice berg, the game really is best when you add a GM and let rip with all the extra monsters and treasures.

 frankelee wrote:
As someone I saw on Reddit say, as long as you're going to other companies to buy their minis, why don't you just go ahead and buy their games too, and just cut GW out of the whole equation.

Because a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear that placing a nonGW model within a certain proximity of an official Citadel(tm) model will cause your entire collection to spontaneously combust.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Because a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear that placing a nonGW model within a certain proximity of an official Citadel(tm) model will cause your entire collection to spontaneously combust.

That's a feature, not a bug. When I was getting into the GW addiction hobby, especially competing in Golden Demons in the 90's, they drill "Use only GW models and GW parts for your hobby" into your head. It was very hard for me to break after 20+ years of making sure everything was GW-compliant.

I was at a Kill Team tournament once and I was using metal Hybrids for my "traitor Guard" (this was years before the GSC reboot) and my opponent almost refused to play me for using "non-GW models". The organizer had to tell the kid that my GW models were genuine (and older than my opponent).

So yeah, I totally understand the resistance.

Luke82 wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!

I’ve just bought (old) Heroquest to play with my kids so that’s what probably fuels the sales of the new one… a lot of folks my age got into gaming through heroquest and now have kids the same age and Heroquest is back to bring the next generation into the hobby.

I’m hoping by the time we’ve worked through Heroquest we can get cracking on Warhammer Quest 95. I think the big thing about original Quest is that it really is like being given the keys to a whole world to play in, the original role play book was huge in scope. If people have only played it with the cards and original box contents it’s only the tip of the ice berg, the game really is best when you add a GM and let rip with all the extra monsters and treasures.

Yeah, but then "Everything is better with a GM" (TM) - at that point the comparison isn't with board games but with RPGs. Is WHQ a better RPG than D&D, Pathfinder, etc?

(I genuinely don't know, have never been blessed by a good GM to get into those sorts of games)

I don’t know about better, it has a different focus. Like an ‘arcade mode’ RPG that concentrates on the best, action packed parts of those games; going into dungeons to duff up monsters and nick their treasures. It is a hybrid between board game and RPG and as is therefore awesome.

Only playing WHQ 95 with the cards and box monsters is like only playing 40K with the little scenarios in the starter boxes, it’s not really enough to make an assessment of the game overall.

deano2099 wrote:
That's fair enough if you still enjoy it. My brief experience found it overly random and lacking in interesting decisions compared to something like Descent.
I think especially with co-op games, game design has moved on so much in 30 years. But then I'm also amazed people are so into the re-released Hero Quest, I assumed that would be a failure too once the nostalgia wore off, so there's strong evidence I'm wrong on this!

Yeah that makes sense, I'm a big fan of Descent 2nd ed. too, and yes the rules there definitely show a generational upgrade in design over something like Warhammer Quest. If you did WHQ again you'd want to add a hand of cards for use as special abilities like Gloomhaven, you'd do well to add a fatigue system in that let players do more in a turn in they choose to like Descent, designers have definitely figured out ways to add more decision points and strategy to these games. But I found it's still a lot of fun to play a campaign, slay orcs, find treasure, do stuff in town, and so on. That whole out-of-the-dungeon story side really grips my imagination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KidCthulhu wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Because a lot of people seem to have an irrational fear that placing a nonGW model within a certain proximity of an official Citadel(tm) model will cause your entire collection to spontaneously combust.

That's a feature, not a bug. When I was getting into the GW addiction hobby, especially competing in Golden Demons in the 90's, they drill "Use only GW models and GW parts for your hobby" into your head. It was very hard for me to break after 20+ years of making sure everything was GW-compliant.

I was at a Kill Team tournament once and I was using metal Hybrids for my "traitor Guard" (this was years before the GSC reboot) and my opponent almost refused to play me for using "non-GW models". The organizer had to tell the kid that my GW models were genuine (and older than my opponent).

So yeah, I totally understand the resistance.

I noticed that "always use only official GW products" line when I was a kid in the 90s and thought it was pretty cringe then. Sounded like a shampoo commercial trying to keep you from buying Brand X. And probably 999 out of every 1,000 games of Warhammer were played in somebody's basement or dining room back then, or maybe the back room of your gaming store if they had the space to have tables, so they didn't really even have the chance to strong arm you into believing their crass commercialism. I feel like the internet kind of messed up the freedom and DIY spirit of hobbies, suddenly you had kids on message boards telling other kids their game experiences weren't really as valid because they didn't play rules as written, or used proxy models, or whatever else. Somebody reminding you, "you know you could never use those models in an OFFICIAL GW TOURNAMENT™." The internet encourages 'the rich kid in town talking down to you' of attitude in people.

If you did WHQ again you'd want to add a hand of cards for use as special abilities like Gloomhaven

Yeah, absolutely not. It works well enough for Gloomhaven, where the multi-faceted card puzzle _is_ the game, but I'm definitely tired of GW trying to flog cards as a 'supplemental' add on.

You can just have special abilities as part of the character like a normal fantasy game, with whatever limits or resource usage are appropriate to the setting and game.