So I thought I'd get this started for the community so hopefully we can get the word out there for it. More details will be forthcoming over the next week or so.

The SoCal Smackdown is being brought to you by the Southern California Games Workshop League. The same league that has run the Slaughter in Space and SoCal Slaughter for the last few years. This event was just confirmed 2-days ago as a qualifier for the Vegas Invitational GT next near. They are also according to the TO's going to use this as a chance to run a "competitive" oriented event to see how it does compared to their normal events which include comp.

It will be a 5-game GT for both Fantasy and 40k. There are only 30 spots available for each. It looks like price will be between $50-$60 for the weekend. It is running as part of a larger convention which is the reason for the limited space. The price does include a weekend pass for the Con as well.

Sign up at: http://socalsmackdown.com/

I'll keep this post updated as I get more information for you guys. Hope to see you guys there!

But, with no comp, someone might bring 24 Bloodcrushers!!

Oh. Wait.



Sounds like fun; I look forward to more details.

Hrm....

This could be another chance to fly across the country and get drunk!

24 bloodcrushers rock until they run into 3 dreadnaughts, amirite?

Sounds like cool stuff, Hulk.

Yeah, I think I've finally started to convince Q that 40k doesn't need comp. People will bring what people will bring. I'm really pushing for them to give this a try on the 40k side using a more competitive format. And 5 rounds will guarentee an undisputed winner. Only 1 person can go 5-0.

Granted Fantasy might not even need comp by then though.

Hulksmash wrote:And 5 rounds will guarentee an undisputed winner. Only 1 person can go 5-0.

So no ties?

It's what I'm pushing for. We'll see. He's working out the packet now. He just asked me to post the info he'd given me to start the buzz. Since we've only got a little over 2 months.

On a side note: Did you get my PM MVB?

Hulksmash wrote:

And 5 rounds will guarentee an undisputed winner. Only 1 person can go 5-0.

Hrm...and smart tournament formatting is spreading! =D

Hulk, what are the dates? Labor day is...end of August? First of September? Mobile and harried here (going to sign lease on new house today, all belongings in the back of a U-Haul).

Hrm...maybe we should just get back in the truck and drive to CA! I bet my company has a position out there for me.

That would be awesome Dash.

As for the dates I'm pretty sure it's the first weekend of September. So the 4th-5th I believe.

I am not sure about completely eliminating it, but I definately would like to dump the checklist for a simple Thumbs Up or Down mark, probably ignoring one bad mark when scoring so when Hulk Chipmunks someone they don't get hurt!

The missions will be fairly generic, since I will be handling the judging of both events and do not want to be fielding lengthy discussions about mission rules. Expect a packet up sometime this weekend (along with the one for Slaughter on the Strip aka NeonCon GT) with full rules.

The Fantasy GT will just be using the same exact format as the SoCal Slaughter, for those interested in that.

Oh, Hulk ... I got your pm/email ... will reply no worries, just busy.

You should up it to 32 players if you're going with clearcut, or else you'll have some undefeateds getting "easier" matches against players with losses already.

Your just gonna dump it Phazael. It's all good

40k doesn't need comp! I'm still Ok with sports scores but comp is dead in 40k.

And I'd consider looking at not doing comp for a few events in fantasy after 8th comes out since you don't know which(if any) armies might be mega-overpowered until everyone settles into the new ruleset.

Sounds like a good time. There is a tournament in Phoenix the weekend after this one, with this much warning I might not have to make a "either/or" choice. I hope I can swing doing both since I'm right in between! I have family in both LA and Phoenix so it can all be done under the guise of a family vacation.

Yes!!!!

This is perfect... Phazael, I think you'll be happy with the response you get. And if you follow through with the soft score removal (not including painting of course) then I will certainly mobilize the sprue posse. I'm sure the san diego crowd will be there too. 30 spots will disappear like hotcakes...

And that gives me 9 weeks to paint 80 termagants, 5 MCs and 7 hive guard.... Might have to take a sabbatical!

Hulksmash wrote:
It will be a 5-game GT for both Fantasy and 40k. There are only 30 spots available for each. It looks like price will be between $50-$60 for the weekend. It is running as part of a larger convention which is the reason for the limited space. The price does include a weekend pass for the Con as well.

So it will be part of the Gateway Convention at the LAX Radisson?
http://www.strategicon.net/

No comp would be a step in the right direction, and better, streamlined missions would be nice.

Oh, and a lowering of the point limit might be better too. It seems like the higher the points, the better IG do. I would like to play in a tournament that is less than 2000 points and have people make some hard decisions in what they have to bring instead of being able to play with all of their toys.

Hulksmash wrote:And 5 rounds will guarentee an undisputed winner. Only 1 person can go 5-0.

The best thing about a pure elimination system is that all wins are equal. This lets armies like Eldar & Tau compete better, as they don't have to try and achieve a massacre result.

The downside, of course, is the hard cap on the number of players who can be involved.

Hey Hulkster, do you have any idea when they will start to make tix available for this event or is it too eairly in da planning stages?

Don't lower the points limit!

40K was intended to be played at 2K, 1,500 is for Limeys and sissies!

This sounds awesome, SiS was a bitchin tournament and if we go towards a no comp, no tie tournament that would be sweet.

When do tickets go on sale?

I'll post info on the San Diego boards.

@Blackmoor

Actually it's not involved with that at all. It's going to be in Anaheim and it's a different event completely. And I'm sure it's going to stay at 2k. There are a few armies that don't perform well below that level(Nids/Tau) while it's the cap on some armies that do (DE/Orks). That last statement is personal opinion of course but I do think 2k tends to be a sweetspot for any dex from Eldar forward.

@Grimgob

I don't know for sure when they will start taking ticket sales on it but I know he's trying to get eveything set-up by the end of next week. Meaning that we'll have all the info we need for tickets and such by then.

@Bladewalker

It'd be awesome to have you.

@Everyone

Phazael is only seriously considering removing comp. Not sports. But remember that the SCGWL events the Golden Tickets go to Best General and Best Overall. So Sportsmanship will probably definitely be in. I'm going to try and talk him into experimenting with this one to see how it goes for 40k and make the only soft score painting but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do it.

Anybody who would prefer that format let us know here or thru PM to me and maybe if we can show a strong enough support for it then they'll consider it.

I know that Shep's and Nash's crew would be totally down for it (around 6-10 guys). And I know a fair chunk of the San Diego crowd would be too (another 3-6) so if we can show him that over 20 tickets will disappear off the bat maybe we can get him to experiment with it.

Use your voice fella's

You guys know where my vote lies!

Ditch comp, the rules books are comp themselves. Painting should stay in as that is a part of the hobby, and sports....hmm, I have had one tournament game that sucked in this last ard boyz and that was it out of all of them that I have played.

I say drop it and simply have a system where a player gets a warning if he is being a douche, then gets booted, like yellow card, red card (I have world cup on the brain right now).

No comp is hard-core... I disagree that comp doesn't belong in 40k. I actually just think that none of us have seen a great system to judge it yet. Regardless, I'd rather play with no comp system, than with a bad comp system so I'm in....

LoL... If I ever started grading comp for 5th editon 40k, it would actually only have one question: Is the list a SPAM? IE- Razorback SPAM, Ork Battlewagon SPAM, Land Raider SPAM, DE Raider SPAM, Blood Angel Dreadnought SPAM, Monsterous Creature SPAM, ect... (Feel free to insert any SPAM that I forgot)

Funny, I never did like the taste of SPAM. My mother-in-law says that it is good when you eat your SPAM deep-fried, or heated up in the microwave. Others say that SPAM tastes good with eggs or with on a sandwich. I haven't tried any in a while so maybe it's time I should...

So, I guess this is a good time for me to bust out Logan Grimnar and my Wolf Guard SPAM and see how it does.

As far as comp goes, I'm completely indifferent. Even under moderately optimal circumstances, as in the Slaughter in Space, it can lead to some absurdities (Tau are cheesier than Tyranids!), and didn't really seem to affect the results too much - top 4 finishers had middle-of-the-road judge comp, and player judged comp ranged from 22-30 (22 being an outlier; 26-30 everywhere else).

It's fairly apparent that the presence of comp didn't play a large role in people's army selections, and a variation of 4 pts in player-judged comp (out of about 180 pts possible for the event) is negligible. If Phazael wants to include comp and have it mean something, it'd have to be a larger differentiator. Keeping it in as-is is harmless, except where it irks certain people's principles.

Ok, here is the COMPromise (/drumfill) I am running with for this. I am using a pure thumbs up / thumbs down system for both sports and comp. The first thumbs down is ignored for both catagories, so people don't get stung with the butthurt factor as much. If this pans out, it will serve as our new standard for all future events. I know you want comp gone completely, but I want to test a middle road approach first, before I ditch it entirely, especially since its absence makes painting the primary soft score. Bear in mind that round one in this event will be completely random draw, since there are no required list submissions.

That said, the effects of soft scores should be greatly lessoned under what I will run at this event. If people like it and don't abuse it, Neon Con will operate under the same system, for both Fantasy and 40k. Anyhow, here is the packet. I await my flaming at the hands of the unwashed masses of the internet:

www.scgwl.com/downloads/GT/SSD40K.pdf



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ps- If both tournaments have no absurd composition issues, I will be able to pull comp from both formats (Fantasy and 40k) for future events. So I guess, its how people treat it here.

pps- With the massive cluster fornication that is the Inquisition Dexes, I am going with the following ruling (covered in the packet) on allies: Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters may (assuming they have a hardcover book) ally with each other and take inducted allies, as outlined in the original codex. Other armies may NOT take any Inquisition allies, until further notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ppps- You should be able to sign up for this event on the socal smackdown website. Right now, its capped at 60 players for both events, total, but if we sell out early, we will add another room and split the events between the two. Also, night time open gaming with our terrain is a go for anyone who wants to, Friday through Sunday.

Nevermind.....

So to register you need to register on the sight. And then sign up. Phazael do we sign up for the Smackdown ($25) and the tournament ($30)? Or just the tournament? Thanks

At a first glance it looks good Phazael.

I was planning on going out to AZ the following weekend, but I'd much rather stay closer to home and play in this as I don't think the wife will let me take off for 2 weekends in a row.

Hulk-
Sign up for both (total is 55$). Sorry about the price, but we scoped it to break even and its still less expensive than the one day church basement GT at least! Venue is really nice, by the way.

$55 for a GT is perfectly fine for 5 games over 2 days. No one will balk at that price. Especially since it's being run by guys who are upstanding TO's who have a habit of putting on smooth, fun events.

Thanks for getting the missions up so quickly!

A couple questions/comments:
Mission 3: "All other Infiltrators and Scouts must use the standard reserves rules, as outlined for the Pitched Battle deployment."
Is it the intent that all units having Scout or Infiltrate must be in Reserves? 'Cause that's how I read this clause.

Mission 4: "Gravity Flux – All infantry and walkers gain the Fleet universal special rule this turn. All Vehicles gain the Fast universal special rule this turn. If a vehicle is already Fast, then it may move up to 12” and fire all of its weapons, just as if it had moved only 6” that turn. Due to the erratic gravity, all shots fired on this turn reduce their effective ballistic skill by one point."
Bonus for Fast vehicles, but not for already-Fleet units? Both my Tyranids and Daemons don't like the favoritism towards vehicles.

Composition: "Thumbs Down: This army was taken to extremes and creates non-tactical dice rolling contests."
I don't understand this criteria. If you could provide an example, I might be able to suggest an alternative phrasing.

Mission 3-
Thats an error on my part. You may deploy those units normally, just not with Reserve or Outflank rules.

Mission 4-
Vehicles in this mission (under the effects of a Spike) have to contend with dangerous terrain, so I think the scales are even there. Your Nids and Daemons will get to count many of their guns as twin linked, where as Vehicles will not, as well.

Composition:
Thumbs down is basically just for guys who show up with lists designed to suck all of the fun out of the game, which is very few. Really, Hulk and Dark General's armies were the only ones from our last GT that might draw one of these. I would be very suprised to see any thumbs downs on the 40k end of the room and will have an argument for dumping comp to my team if that is the case.

Phazael wrote:Mission 4-
Vehicles in this mission (under the effects of a Spike) have to contend with dangerous terrain, so I think the scales are even there. Your Nids and Daemons will get to count many of their guns as twin linked, where as Vehicles will not, as well.

As written, Fast vehicles don't take dangerous terrain. Lots of upside to Fast vehicles in this mission, and no real downside (which was really my point, buried under the flippancy).

Composition:
Thumbs down is basically just for guys who show up with lists designed to suck all of the fun out of the game, which is very few. Really, Hulk and Dark General's armies were the only ones from our last GT that might draw one of these. I would be very suprised to see any thumbs downs on the 40k end of the room and will have an argument for dumping comp to my team if that is the case.

Then something more along the lines of "I would never, under any circumstances, enjoy playing against this army" might be a better choice. (I actually enjoyed playing against TDG's army; he could have made it much worse, simply by including some non-Khornate units in there).

Phazael, I just tried registering for this from the office and I got some sort of error saying that I needed to be on Internet Exploreer 8 to get in...

Is there an easier link for crap-tacular PC's go get on and register since I only have Internet Explorer 6 at work?

Thanks.

Point taken on the comp.

Yes Fast Vehicles come out the best in the mission, that was intentional.

I corrected the deployment wording on Mission 3.

I am interested in full feedback on this, as I might alter the missions if there is serious uproar over them. I tried to keep things like deployments and objectives standardized and limited the crazy crap to just the fourth mission (which I generally make my oddball mission). But this is not final and I am open to suggestions on it, since this is basically a short notice GT being held mostly for the Dakkites in the LA area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Patrick-
I have zero control over the registration site, unfortunately.

Ok, I'll just do it tonight when I get home then. Thanks!

Along with Reece, I'll spread the word to the SD guys and mention it at the 40k league on Wednesday.

Are there amy slots left perchance?

G

I think I might have to sign up for this one...

@all - quit hating on my comp just because I suck as a general and need to take my balls-out IG list do I get hit Boo!

Still not ideal, but a step in the right direction needs to be supported.

Well I'm signed up.

Also Phazael is taking comments and concerns on missions and format so like Janthkin don't be shy if you see something or have a question.

Hey fellas, I feel like an r-tard here but I can't see where to register?

Where is it on the SCGWL page?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
NM, found it, it's in the packet.

Dur!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, I am all paid up, too!

Word, already looking forward to this event!

It makes a huge difference when the TO's running it have an awesome track record. Watch how quick this fills up after all the issues associated with another tournament in the local area

Yeah, I already told the SD boys, and we are having an RTT tomorrow, so the word will spread quickly.

SCGWL runs nothing but good events, from the Leagues to the Tournaments, I have had nothing but great experiences with their events.

It sounds like a good crowd is already coming, too! I'll see if I can get the hitters from SD to go, Patrick is already coming and Gen.Ruckus, a really good IG player is coming too, so far.

I'll try and get Dave, Geoff and Shane to come as well.

The deal is its 60 seats for both systems total. Whichever crowd gets them first, gets them, so theoretically the 40k guys could grab all 60 seats before any Fantasy guys sign up. After talking to Henry and Adam from the Smackdown, they might expand it to another room if it sells out early, since they obviously want to build their event.

After some feedback, mission one is being changed so turn one reserves may deep strike, but are not required to do so.

Awesome change Phazael

Like I was telling Shep this weekend and he agreed. If all the other 4 missions are super solid (which this change makes them) and with your change to a thumbs up/thumbs down ignore the first thumbs down sports/comp everyone will forgive you the crazy gravity mission.

Let's here it for BP's being the huge contributor to the tourney win!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hey Phazael, how many people have signed up so far? Hit us up with the number so we can encourage people to fill this up

Hmmm... I may need to actually sign up for this one...

Wonder if I can my IG ready in time...

Ozymandias wrote:Hmmm... I may need to actually sign up for this one...

Wonder if I can my IG ready in time...

DO IT!

Yeah Ozy, don't be a wussy!

Do it Ozzy!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And bring the rest of the fellas with you, makes for a fun road trip!

I'm in as of now.

Woot!

That's me, Dave and Reece that we know of so far!

Plus we have Kelly and Danny coming from SD, as well as Patrick in addition to Dave.

Shep is coming with the sprue posse.

Gonna be a good un!

Hulksmash wrote:Woot!

That's me, Dave and Reece that we know of so far!

I think Sazzlefrats & I will come down again; need to verify w/ him & register.

Next challenge: get Yakface to come out and play again!

I was pretty sure he enjoyed the last one they threw. And this one is gonna be just as good if not better. Give us his address. We'll chain him up and drag him out to it!

I like that it is on a holiday weekend.

TOs seem to avoid holidays like the plague, but it is a lot nicer for people who are coming from a distance.

I'm in, see you all there!

Looks like fun.

I think work will preclude my attending, however.
I shall look into it.

Yeah yeah...

We'll have to see what my work schedule is like but I'd like the chance to lose to y'all.

So what's the word on how many people have signed up Phazael? I'm wanting to see a full 40k group at least

This is gonna be a good one. Might even have my Exodite Eldar up and ready for it!

I still haven't signed up yet, but I plan to. so +1 to whatever the head count is...

Sazzlefrats & I are now registered. I wonder what the headcount is currently like?

(I admit, I was tempted to go Fantasy. There should be like 5 players, total, giving great chances for a Golden Ticket that way....)

Awesome Janthkin!

Actually Fantasy events for the SCGWL generally out-do 40k events so in this case it might be easier to go 40k

I'm trying to get a number from Phazael. Either he'll post here or I'll post it when I hear back from him on the head count.

I'm still a strong maybe (for 40k), should know for sure in a few weeks. I hope there are spots left then!

I would like to sign up for this event (if there are still spots available), but as of time of this post, the socalsmackdown.com page doesn't want to load for me...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Okay, I got through to the site and should now be signed up.

Awesome! I'll see ya there Yakface

I wonder how many spots are left.

Excellent! Bringing forth the cheesy Tau again, Yak? Or are you going to speed paint another 800 pts of Tyranids?

Orks!!!!!! Bring Orks!!!!

Janthkin wrote:Excellent! Bringing forth the cheesy Tau again, Yak? Or are you going to speed paint another 800 pts of Tyranids?

I got the Orks back from Bill.

If I can make it out it wil be east versus west. Have to schedule a business trip out that way . Should b a good one for sure .

G

I might be in SLC for the BYU-Washington game.

If I am not, I will be at the tournament.

What army you gonna bring Allan ?

G

Ah, this will indeed be a good tournament, a lot of my favorite players will be attending.

Now I just need to knock the dust off of my paint brushes and finish painting my tournament army. I have not done anything 40K related besides the occasional forum post since Ard Boyz.

Sweet, registered. In it to win it. Now I just need to paint something...

I guess I will show up. I am running out of chances to get my golden ticket.

Well you've got a better chance now Blackmoor since Shep, Dave, and I all have our tickets

Except that I put away my Sisters for the time being and plan to bring a nasty Lysander-wing.
Looking forward to a rematch Brad...even if I do lose to you, again.
LOL

It looks like it's gonna be my daemons Dkellyj so you should have a fine chance of monkey stomping me now

Blackmoor wrote:
I guess I will show up. I am running out of chances to get my golden ticket.

Dont worry Allan you'll probably be able to buy one.

G

Don't worry, I can earn a ticket.

Since I hate 5th edition codexs, I might have to go back to a 3rd edition one.

Hmm, no comp or sports I might go with the Eldar for money in the bank.

Hey Hulk, wanna review my list?

Sure, shoot it over to me via PM and I'll take a look at it

Lambadomy is coming, too? Sweet, this is going to be a straight Dakka tournament, plus some guys form the SCGWL.

Ah man, I really need to start painting, I have been too damn busy though. I don't want to end up having to bring my triple raider army again as the first melta heavy army I face will be severe arse kicking.

But it'll be an auto-win against any of my armies Reece

So you've got that at least

Don't worry Reece. I won't be playing in the tournament, unless its as a ringer and that will be pure GK. My sisters will not be there to terrorize your poor defensless space wolves.....

I am very much wishing I was able to attend.

:(

What's the population of this tournament? People keep promising to check, but no one ever comes back to report.

Janthkin wrote:What's the population of this tournament? People keep promising to check, but no one ever comes back to report.

+1

I'm going to sign up but its going to be at the last minuit and I would also like to know (I might have to sign up a little sooner).

Haha, yeah, Phazeal, you lowered the hammer of god on that list! That was the worst I have ever gotten beaten with the triple raider army.

So if you do play, just make sure to pair me with Brad, I need some revenge for the last time his wolves beat my IG!

I laugh at missile launchers! Not so much at meltas, though!

You won't be safe from me anymore Reece. I'm semi-retiring my wolves after Nova So it'll be my BA's, Nids, Orks, or Daemons!

Damn it! Haha, OK, back to random draw!

I plan on getting a number count when I return from the ICGT in Baltimore. Right now, I am just too busy with preps for our fantasy GT, our League starting a new season, the Baltimore GT, company comming in from out of town, and Star Craft 2 swallowing my soul....

I succumbed to Starcraft 2 as well, haven't played any video games all year but it just was too tempting!

My wife calls it the $300 game since we each upgraded our computers to run it.

I'm trying to log in to register, but it keeps saying "invalid token" when I click to submit... any thoughts?

Never mind! See you all there!

Yeah, Starcraft has eaten my life. I have been playing it non stop, i need to go to a 12 step program or something. Damn video games! I barely ever play them and now I am on a bender.

Same here. Haven't played a video game other than WoW in over 3 years and even WoW I've only played a couple times in the last 6 months. Damn Starcraft 2 sucked me in hardcore....

I regret to say that I am unable to attend.

Instead I'll be going to my bachelor party.

Hopefully I can make it to the next SoCal Slaughter.

Best luck to all the players.

An excellent reason to duck it Didn't know you were getting married Dave, congrats.

Out of curiosity, Do they use the INAT FAQ at this venue?

Nope

No? How odd.

Hulksmash wrote:Nope

Very well then! Phazael's word is law!

Hulksmash wrote:Nope

I will never, ever, ever push anyone/event to use the INATFAQ, but I really think they should put something out instead if they're not going to use it. In the last tournament I attended I played against the ringer Grey Knight army. Now, the army was pretty darn tame and I got a solid win out of it, but the fact is (at least in that game, but I assume that's how they run it all the time) they were playing with *some* bonuses of a legacy codex and not others.

The smoke launchers were played as written in the codex (penetrating=glancing) but Storm Shields were played as a straight up 3+ invulnerable (not as written) and the Assault Cannon was played as Heavy 4, rending (not as written).

I'm a very, very easy-going person when it comes to playing how other people want to play (Brad, our little 'tiff' over whether you were within range to charge me or not in the last turn of that game we played has been making me feel like a douche since then...so sorry, I should have given you the charge without all the hassle once you made your measurement), but not everyone I would imagine would be so happy to see things played this way, and rightly so.

Without *some* printed FAQ players have absolutely no idea how judges are going to rule if they do bring things up and personally I don't think that is ever a good thing.

I respect what Yak (and pals) have tried to do with the INAT faq, but I am fundementally against running third party rules at an event. Whatever your opinion on the INAT faq, it is not an official source and largely reflective of the opinions of the group that creates it. I am not going to launch into a Sutton style nerd rage orgy over it, but I do prefer to make only official GW sources the deffinative ones (even assinine ones like the rescent Nid Faq) because it gives everyone the same framework to operate in.

Sufficive to say, if you have a specific rules question about something that is not covered in a GW faq and that the community at large has differing opinions on, please shoot me a PM or email and I will tell you how something will be ruled day of. Please bear in mind that my philosophy is RAW first, but spirit of the game when RAW is unclear.

Phazael wrote:I respect what Yak (and pals) have tried to do with the INAT faq, but I am fundementally against running third party rules at an event. Whatever your opinion on the INAT faq, it is not an official source and largely reflective of the opinions of the group that creates it. I am not going to launch into a Sutton style nerd rage orgy over it, but I do prefer to make only official GW sources the deffinative ones (even assinine ones like the rescent Nid Faq) because it gives everyone the same framework to operate in.

Sufficive to say, if you have a specific rules question about something that is not covered in a GW faq and that the community at large has differing opinions on, please shoot me a PM or email and I will tell you how something will be ruled day of. Please bear in mind that my philosophy is RAW first, but spirit of the game when RAW is unclear.

I can't just leave this post alone ...but I'll try to make this the last one on the point and be done with it.

As I said above, I'm not advocating that you should use the INAT. Obviously the rulings in it are based on the opinions of the players involved in ruling on it (how else could it be?), but the idea that the FAQ is somehow '3rd party rules' and by you not using a FAQ you're avoiding this and giving everyone the same 'framework to operate in' is frankly a bit ludicrous.

ALL tournaments operate with '3rd party rules' in the form of a tournament organizer or judge making rulings in certain situations. You can either make these house rules (rulings) public ahead of time in the form of a FAQ or you can keep players guessing by making them wait to see which way a judge will rule when they're called over.

PMing or emailing specific people rulings ahead of time is a highly flawed system because it forces players to have to think of every possible question and then contact you ahead of time to have that answer known. For example, I may have some questions about the army I'm playing that I'll think of and email you ahead of time, but I'm certainly not going to email you questions about other armies. So when the tournament rolls around and I'm playing against enemy army X, and a strange situation comes up and a judge has to be called over, I have no idea about what the ruling is going to be and may end up costing me the game (in a worst-case scenario, of course).

IMHO, the only framework this gives your players is one of uncertainty. Those who have emailed you about specific questions know the answers to those questions, but everyone else has absolutely no idea how situations regarding other armies are going to be handled.

Since you guys are putting on quite a few tournaments now, why not take the INAT FAQ as a basis to look through, find the questions you think really need to be covered and then make your own FAQ to publish these rulings ahead of time?

Phazael wrote:I respect what Yak (and pals) have tried to do with the INAT faq, but I am fundementally against running third party rules at an event. Whatever your opinion on the INAT faq, it is not an official source and largely reflective of the opinions of the group that creates it. I am not going to launch into a Sutton style nerd rage orgy over it, but I do prefer to make only official GW sources the deffinative ones (even assinine ones like the rescent Nid Faq) because it gives everyone the same framework to operate in.

Sufficive to say, if you have a specific rules question about something that is not covered in a GW faq and that the community at large has differing opinions on, please shoot me a PM or email and I will tell you how something will be ruled day of. Please bear in mind that my philosophy is RAW first, but spirit of the game when RAW is unclear.

As Yakface said, not using INAT FAQ does not mean non-GW personnel are absolved of making certain rulings. Ruling may indeed come up that are not covered by GW FAQ's. When this occurs it simply becomes the whimsy of the judge. Therefore you have a choice. 1) Make everything transparent in a FAQ about how judges are going to rule or 2) Make all rulings ultimately "judge's call" at the time of the ruling.

Without a FAQ you are advocating judge's call. This is fine but it's not as transparent as a FAQ and it also might not be consistent if two judges rule in different ways in similar situations. Q&A sessions don't reach all of the intended audience. A private answer to one person might not reach his opponent after list selection or he pays his entry fee.

I think transparency and consistency is more fair to the people who play in my tournaments. That is why I use a comprehensive FAQ. I use INAT because I'm too lazy to create one myself and I'm not interested in re-inventing the wheel. INAT FAQ is widely known and easily available. I don't even have to host the download server.

If you don't like INAT then make your own FAQ. But don't just not use one. That's sticking your head in the sand.

I don't like using non-official sources, its really as simple as that. Anyhow, I don't want to turn this thread into another discussion on the merrits and flaws of the INAT.

Phazael wrote:I don't like using non-official sources, its really as simple as that. Anyhow, I don't want to turn this thread into another discussion on the merrits and flaws of the INAT.

This isn't really about the INAT. It's about the concept of TO's issuing FAQ's ahead of tournaments. Your desire to not use non-official sources is not feasible unless you plan on having the 40k design team judging your tournament. If you are a judge at a tournament and you are not an employee of GW then you yourself are a non-official source.

Not looking to flick matches onto a pile of dead puppies soaked in kerosene here, BUT...!

I run tournaments every month and I've run the 'Ard Boyz both at the preliminary and semi-final rounds, and GW's position about rulings whenever I've asked has always been "We will back you up on whatever ruling you make within reason" and the understanding was always, even at the more important events like 'Ard Boyz semi-finals, that as long as I'm not telling people that their bolters are AP1 or that Orks get +7A on the charge, that is, if I'm making a legitimate ruling based on the RAW and availalble GW FAQs, I'm acting as a proxy for GW with its full support. I'm sure Phazael would have a similar conversation if he asked Spettigue (or whomever is handling the GT-qualifier events these days) about it.

Burn, puppies, burn!

...Back on topic, I'm really looking forward to going, with fingers crossed that I can get my plague-ridden, Nurgle-worshipping traitor Guardsmen fully painted in time!

Finally, any word on available spaces? There's a handful of Fantasy players I've talked to about going, but they'll probably only go en masse...
-Dis.

Total space is capped at 60 players for both systems. I seriously doubt we will have a large fantasy turnout (our main Fantasy GT is two weeks before this), so realistically the 40k cap should be higher than 30. I am due to talk to the Smackdown folks about signups, so once I do I will update the thread here.

Ok for those interested in Fantasy (and its looking thin now, for an easy golden ticket) the packet is now up for that, as well:

www.scgwl.com\downloads\GT\SSDFant.pdf

Do you have a head count for 40K?

Phazael wrote:I don't like using non-official sources, its really as simple as that. Anyhow, I don't want to turn this thread into another discussion on the merrits and flaws of the INAT.

Stick to your guns, I prefer this

Phazael wrote:I don't like using non-official sources, its really as simple as that. Anyhow, I don't want to turn this thread into another discussion on the merrits and flaws of the INAT.

It's not about the INIAT. Are you reading their replies?

It's about publishing rulings ahead of time so people know what to expect. That's more helpful to everyone (for preplanning) than just making rulings on the fly, and will cause less arguments and misunderstandings on the day of the event.

He already indicated that he's going with RAW and common sense.

I kind of feel like I know what to expect.

Since it's a matter of preference I guess it is unreasonable to expect everyone to agree. C'est la vie. I'm not sure why I cared so much anyway considering I can't afford to go

Monster Rain wrote:He already indicated that he's going with RAW and common sense.

I kind of feel like I know what to expect.

This is the third time I'll be going down to one of these events. I still don't know everything I'd like to know. Last time (pre-GW Tyranid FAQ), I left Hive Tyrants/Swarmlords out of my list entirely (couldn't be sure how they'd interact with the Tyrant Guard), as well as not bringing the Doom (no clue how that would work) or a Mawloc (could they deepstrike on enemy units, or not?). There's still no clarity on whether the Swarmlord's/Hive Tyrants +1 to Reserves works from off-table. (I can construct a similar list of questions post-FAQ, as well as one for every other army I play.)

This time, post-Tyranid FAQ, given that GW has made models in transports immune to Shadows in the Warp, it'll be interesting to see if Psychic Hoods or other anti-psychic stuff is allowed to affect models in transports, or if such equipment in transports is allowed to affect the rest of the board.

I travel to these things for fun, and to hang out with people I don't get to see all that often. But "common sense," isn't; uncertainty is not a virtue. I end up just avoiding the uncertain areas where possible in creating my army, and wondering what'll happen if some of my opponents have psychic hoods in their transports, or are using the Blue Scribes, or are using Storm Caller on vehicles, or....

Hive Tyrant working when off-table is a PERFECT example.

Having a judge come over to make a spot ruling on LOS, cover saves or just to confirm commonly confused rules is perfectly fine.

Having an unverified global army-wide ability just be a coin toss? For one thing, my spore pod based tyranid army goes from powerful to completely unplayable with just the casual poor ruling by a judge.

Its not something that a tyranid player can just go into a tournament saying "we'll just see how the judges feel."

The alternative here is to get a written note or "hall pass" from the TO, print it out and clutch it in your grip like living death, prepared to thrust it in the face of a judge who doesn't agree with the TO. Even then, it may be akin to asking an umpire to chance a strike call to a ball, because the guys in the announcers booth didn't agree.

Why couldn't psychic hoods affect units in transports?

Monster Rain wrote:Why couldn't psychic hoods affect units in transports?

The rules are actually silent on the issue. This only became a problem once the Tyranid FAQ came out, and said that Shadow in the Warp does NOT affect a psyker inside a vehicle.

Both SitW and a Hood anti-psychic defenses, having a discrete range of effect (ignoring the "old style" hoods for the moment). If the former doesn't affect a unit that happens to be "inside" their metal box, is it safe to assume that the latter does? What about Runes of Warding (which are almost identical in effect with SitW, but for the lack of a range limitation)?

What does common sense tell us now?

Shep - believe me, the Tyranid reserves rules are near and dear to my heart. But it's not hard to find similar examples across the game - there's a reason the INAT is 118 pages long, and it's not all "common sense" answers.

But while we're on the subject - hey Phazael, do Hive Commander & Alien Cunning work while the Tyrant & Swarmlord are themselves in Reserves?

To me, it would seem that if the Psyker was in the vehicle and it was within 24" of the Psychic Hood it would be affected.

These beardy rules loopholes don't seem to come up all that often outside of YMDC, at least in my experience at tournaments. And I've been to quite a few.

Feel free to set me straight, Phazael.

Tyranid Questions:

Hive Commander and Alien Cunning do function while the model possesing the ability is itself in reserves, for the purposes of SCGWL events. Given that Autarchs confer the bonuses, I am going with that as precedend.

Spore Pods that are tank shocked must Death or Glory, since they are unable to move out of the way.

Since Shadows does not affect an embarked psycher, then it follows that Runes of Warding, Psychic Hoods, and the Runepriest Staff will also not affect models embarked in transports. Its a stupid ruling by GW, but if the sword cuts both ways until GW explicitly states otherwise.

This is exactly how I ruled it at Hard Boyz finals and until GW FAQs speak on the matter, this is how I will handle those specific situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pro tip- The best way to get GW to alter a ruling in a FAQ is to demonstrate that it negatively impacts Space Marines in some manner (see Counter Attack / Furious Charge with Straken debacle).

Sounds fair.

Why GW? Why did you do that to Shadows in the Warp?

Phazael wrote:

Spore Pods that are tank shocked must Death or Glory, since they are unable to move out of the way.

Doesn't that go directly against GW's ruling in their FAQ?

On the subject of FAQ or no FAQ, Kevin has perfectly expressed my thoughts on the subject.

I have no doubt this will be a great event, but a comprehensive FAQ reduces the chances/instances of drama & misunderstandings.

yakface wrote:

Phazael wrote:

Spore Pods that are tank shocked must Death or Glory, since they are unable to move out of the way.

Doesn't that go directly against GW's ruling in their FAQ?

All the GW faq says is that other models that make things move can move it, not requiring the model itself to move. The Mawlock (and a deep striking monolith) push models out of the way. Ducking a tank shock requires voluntary movement on the part of the tank shocked model. Its a subtle difference, but different none the less.

I imagine that the Nid faq is going to have to be redone at some point, since some of the rulings are so completely assinine, so I expect there will be some clarification on this matter.

@Phazeal - Poor ruling at best. Doesn't make sense, and just makes Spore Pods die too easy, imo.

To Land Raiders, perhaps. Its a coin flip for just about any other vehicle. But then, a 250 point tank should roll over a 40 point model.

Phazael wrote:Since Shadows does not affect an embarked psycher, then it follows that Runes of Warding, Psychic Hoods, and the Runepriest Staff will also not affect models embarked in transports. Its a stupid ruling by GW, but if the sword cuts both ways until GW explicitly states otherwise.

Given this ruling, what about the opposite? Do anti-psychic abilities/items that are embarked in a vehicle affect the rest of the field? Does it matter if the vehicle in question has a fire point?

They specifically let you use psychic abilities from within a closed vehicle. So, for the purposes of the september event, hoods work while embarked. Things that confer a psychic save to a unit do not (e.g. GKs and SoBs) extend to the transport, however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
22 paid atm for September for 40k.

Phazael wrote:

All the GW faq says is that other models that make things move can move it, not requiring the model itself to move. The Mawlock (and a deep striking monolith) push models out of the way. Ducking a tank shock requires voluntary movement on the part of the tank shocked model. Its a subtle difference, but different none the less.

There is no difference. In order for a move to be voluntary the model must have the CHOICE of whether to move or not...that's what 'voluntary' means. In the case of a Tank Shock:

"If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (if makes no difference whether the unit if falling back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency."


The fact that the rule says the models MUST be moved out of the way means that this cannot possibly be considered 'voluntary' movement.


And more to the point, this wording is pretty much identical to the Mawloc rule:

"If any unit still has surviving models under the template, move that unit by the minimum distance necessary to clear all models from beneath the template whilst maintaining squad coherency and avoiding impassable terrain."


So what exactly is the distinction between the two that you're seeing?

I think I'm gonna run Nipple-Wing at this. Though mine will be robed so I'm not sure I can call it that. But the Flying Bathrobe Brigade sounds to long....

I think I'm going to run...Tau, since I've painted nothing since saying I would start painting up a storm, sigh. I really need to at least get in a couple practice games before the event to prepare myself for how badly I'm going to lose.

I am currently focussed on our fantasy GT at the moment (SoCal Slaughter, this weekend), but I had some time to double check my packets for the Smackdown. I think, given the relatively simple scenarios, most of which are objective/mobility oriented, Tau and Eldar armies can do descently. The second mission is probably the roughest one for those armies.

Also, the Warbands tournament packet is up now:
www.scgwl.com/downloads/GT/SSDWarbands.pdf
If you are bored friday night and have 750 points of models you want to toss down, its a free event to people with a Convention pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Yak- The difference is that a model being moved by a Mawlock has zero choice or options in the matter; it is physically getting pushed out of the way. A model being tank shocked can choose to stand and death or glory (resulting in either the stopping of the vehicle or the removal of the model), as an option to moving out of the path of the model.

Consider that interpretting this otherwise would let people do stupid stuff like Lash Spore pods all over, and the like.

I think mission 2 is brutal for Tau, and mission 3 is almost as bad for similar reasons. We'll see, I definitely don't want to start a discussion on whether or not the missions are "fair", I think they're fine.

Warbands sounds fun, but I barely know the rules to 8th edition at this point so I'll probably skip it

Depends on how meched up you are (most Tau I know mech up a lot) I guess, since you can deny mobility to most armies with your firepower and move around better, Eldar style. But I can see clasic gunline Tau struggling with mission three.

So 26 40k guys. Get signed up and support the new format so it stays!

I'm gonna be there with Nids. Decided that playing marines bored me and the wife asked about why my ugly bugs hadn't been played lately So now I gotta get about 50 new models painted up but it'll be totally worth it. See you guys there!

I have soooo much stuff to paint.

Man, I should just chain myself to my desk to get it all done.

Hire someone with a whip to stand over. It's worked for me before

Hulksmash wrote:Hire someone with a whip to stand over. It's worked for me before

Too much information, Hulk.

There is no such thing as to much information.....unless it's about old people

Hire someone with a whip to stand over. It's worked for me before.

Yeah, but I usually do that sort of thing for free, ya know?

Hulksmash wrote:Marry someone with a whip to stand over. It's worked for me before

There.. Fixed that for you (My wife keeps me in line too).

Well played grimgob! You gonna be there?

I will be there or i'm planning on it (cant buy ticket till next weekend... hope they'll have some left). If you want to get any games in with the missions you know my local haunt (I also got a table at my house which isnt to far from beach and imp hwy.).

Whips and chains don't exactly make me think of painting!

I need to get on it as I really want to get my Golden Ticket, dang it!

@Grimgob

maybe next week? pm me and we'll figure it out. And they still have a decent amount of space due to a low fantasy turnout so far. Which means more space for 40k. I've got another buddy who's signing up as well which means we should clear 30 people which is nice with only 2 months warning

Ok two days out. 40k looks like its going to break the 30 barrier, but thats fine. Thanks to low Fantasy turnout (probably burnout from our last GT two weeks ago) there should be more than enough room to handle walk ins, all the way to 50 if we have to. I am going to hold 5 tables for Fantasy no matter what occurs, but its first come first served.
~Q

Hulksmash wrote:I think I'm gonna run Nipple-Wing at this. Though mine will be robed so I'm not sure I can call it that. But the Flying Bathrobe Brigade sounds to long....

I think I would go with the Flying Bathrobe Bridage, it gives them a certain flair or distinction.

See y'all tomorrow night!

Who's staying in the hotel? Sazzlefrats & I are there.

The tournament isn't until Saturday, right?

Reece and I are driving up friday afternoon, staying at the Anahiem Hilton.
And Hulk...I put the girls away and plan to bring a Codex/Lysander Marine list.

Best of luck everyone; wish I could come.


Don't let Hulksmash win!!

Yeah, Kelly and I will be up there Friday night if anyone else will be around.

Kelly's list is pretty savage. I think he is going to bring the pain on some folks.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, Kelly and I will be up there Friday night if anyone else will be around.

Kelly's list is pretty savage. I think he is going to bring the pain on some folks.

What flavor?

Bring the pain? With my dice????
Come on Reece, I'm the guy that rolled 5 1s on 6 Terminator saves (the 2+ variety). Squad dead...thanks dice.
Wednesday night I spent the first 4 turns getting nothing better than a Pen-2 on Chaos possessed Rhinos (ignores shaken/stunned, thank you very much).
Nope, with my dice the only pain will be the accidental head wound from whoever is where my thrown dice land.

Well I am out the door and on the way to the venue. Tables should be ready for open gaming by around 1 or 2 at the latest. If anyone wants to beat up on the ringer I can bend over and grab ankles for them, or I could plop down my mech guard for a run instead. Look forward to seeing all the Dakkites.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, Kelly and I will be up there Friday night if anyone else will be around.

Kelly's list is pretty savage. I think he is going to bring the pain on some folks.

After playing Kelly's list last Saturday at the tournament at Game Empire, I can easily say that Kelly's list does indeed bring the pain to a lot of people that won't know how to deal with it.

I would not be surprised to hear if Kelly and/or Reece make it to one of the top tables.

Good luck guys!

@Monster Rain
Kelly brings Captain Haus, aka Lysander in a nice Vanilla List.

Thanks Patrick! The wolves are coming with the thunder form down under! I have been on a painting marathon and everything is up to tournament standard. Not quite DONE, but all three colors fully based with at least some highlighting and low lighting.

Looking forward to seeing the gang!

Nice. I haven't even finished *assembling* one of the models for my army. I am so pathetic. I will see you guys tomorrow, don't think I can make it down today, got a job interview.

These days a job interview is WAY more important. Good luck with it and I hope it pays well.

Reecius wrote:@Monster Rain
Kelly brings Captain Haus, aka Lysander in a nice Vanilla List.

Man, I didn't expect you to say that!

Whatever happened to Operational Secrecy?

See you guys tomorrow, I've been looking forward to this for months.

Monster Rain, did we get a chance to meet? I don't know if we got to say hi.

Thanks for the great tournament, Q. Good time as always. I think the new format worked great.

Good to see everyone again!

So, how did it go? Who won?

Reecius wrote:Monster Rain, did we get a chance to meet? I don't know if we got to say hi.

Thanks for the great tournament, Q. Good time as always. I think the new format worked great.

Good to see everyone again!

What army were you playing?

I'm super bummed I had to miss the second day, my kids had something come up that had to be dealt with late into last night and most of today...

If not I bet I'll bump into you at Game Empire. Had a lovely game with Yakface in round two though!

Congrats to Gothgar for taking best overall and to Reece for best general (These were the two Golden ticket winners here). I tried my best to beat Gothgar at the top table in the last round but it was a great game and he was fun to play (two ork armys fighting it out for the top spot = Orks don't suck!). Knocked me down to third but only 5 to 7 point spread between the top spots aint that bad and I did way better than I thought I would. It was really nice to meet all the dakkites out there also.

I have got to get my paint-fu upgraded.

@Darrian13
Woah! What's up Darrian! How have you been, man? You playing 40K again? It'd be good to see you at a tournament!

@Grimgob
Thanks bro! I thought you were going to win it but you just barely lost best general by one kill point! Nice game. Good to see you again. I missed best overall by 2 points! But who cares, I got my ticket and I am a happy man.

@Monster Rain
Dude, I just realized who you were! Haha, I read your battle report and recognized your army. Sorry man, I didn't realize you and I game together at GE.

@Kelly
You kicked ass for your first GT. Get another 10 points on painting and you'll be in the top 1/3 of the field next time, easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, I posted a battle report if anyone is curious to read it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/315517.page

Reecius wrote:

@Monster Rain
Dude, I just realized who you were! Haha, I read your battle report and recognized your army. Sorry man, I didn't realize you and I game together at GE.

I've only been to GE once, so no worries. Just moved to the area...

I plan to be hitting that store up pretty regularly now though, since it's like 2 exits up from my school. We'll see you around!

Cool. We'll have to get a game in!

Reecius wrote:Cool. We'll have to get a game in!

Yeah dude, I'd like that. Congrats on getting your Ticket though! That's awesome!

Next year though... watch out!

Darrian13 has been selected to be a Space Marine based on his supreme genetics. He has no time for games of 40k since he will soon be living the dream.

Who were the biggest cheaters at this event and why?

@Monster
For sure man! And yeah, next even bring the pain. Broadside Bash is the next one, and last year that was a ton of fun.

@Shinkaze
Hahaha, you know Darrian well. Looks like he could bench press a Buick!

Grimgob wrote:Congrats to Gothgar for taking best overall and to Reece for best general (These were the two Golden ticket winners here). I tried my best to beat Gothgar at the top table in the last round but it was a great game and he was fun to play (two ork armys fighting it out for the top spot = Orks don't suck!). Knocked me down to third but only 5 to 7 point spread between the top spots aint that bad and I did way better than I thought I would. It was really nice to meet all the dakkites out there also.

Thanks man, awesome game, one of the best I have had in a while.

Congrats to the other winners as well.

And for those of you who wanted a piece, I plan on making more GT's in the future, so I can show you how much orks suck

Congratz Gothgar! Way to take the prize!

And Orks don't suck, god that is the biggest bunch of internet bull gak I have seen in ages.

Reecius wrote:Congratz Gothgar! Way to take the prize!

And Orks don't suck, god that is the biggest bunch of internet bull gak I have seen in ages.

Obviously, we didn't have any competitive players there.
Battle points worked out thusly: Orks, Space Wolves, Tyranids & Tyranids (tied for third), Orks.

Was a great time...I was there Saterday....did the free game room...missed the sign ups..Orcs do rule....they beat me up badly and took my wallet......but was fun

I was the real winner.
Got to play Keith, Brad, Q, and Jeff; all pretty much top rank players. May have gotten my butt kicked, but the education and tactics picked up were priceless.
Not to mention the lousy Sushi and being in tears over the 'Space Pope' Tau jokes...and that every game I played was fun without drama.
Thanks all and hope to do better at the Broadside Bash.

Hey - would you wonderful green beaters of face be willing to PM or post your ork lists? I play with Kelly, Pat and the others down at the Empire regularly and am always looking to improve my green game!

Congrats to the winners, way to represent for the SD crew Reece!

"When someone has a crap list, I make a short post, usually along the lines of, "I'm not sure you understand how to play Orks," kind of like the one you got. Your list and expressed tactics for using it are fundamentally flawed. I can help someone tweak their engine to make it run more smoothly and get better performance and am glad to do so...

But your army list is like a car with square wheels, you've put sugar into the gas-tank, put in a $600 stereo with no locks on the door, and pimped it with 22" rims on one side, donuts on the other, and put hydraulics on the donuts to try balancing things out. I can't fix crap like that, I can only point out what a terrible car it is and how you need to go back to the drawing board."

After this post by Dash of Pepper said this about my Ork list and now that his list looks similer to mine, I do not post my army list anymore. Thank the Ork master of Dakka Dakka.

and if it were not for my bad addition skills at the end with kill points I would have taken best overall (best paint score I ever got, I'm so proud!)

Insults are not necessary or appropriate. -The Mgmt.

I'm definitely bringing Space Pope to the next tournament, just to show you naysayers what a Horde of Furious Charging, Preferred Enemy crisis suits and fire warriors can do. (answer: not much)

Plus, my Tau couldn't have done much worse anyway, so why not.

Space Pope!!

God that was funny at dinner!

Bring Farsight and Space Pope on his rascal scooter and take the fight to the enemy! Just don't get distracted by an early bird breakfast special or church bingo night on the way.

@Karate_Bum
Thanks! So far Dave and I both have tickets. Hopefully some more of the gang gets a ticket in time. Shane and Geoff at the store are good sources of info for competitive Orks as are Russ and Josh.

@dkeelyj
Yeah, you played some of the best guys there, no doubt. Next time out you'll bring some pain for sure.

Do you want an example of just how tired I was Sunday?

In game #5 I miscounted my kill points, and I should have won the primary instead of losing.

Blackmoor wrote:Do you want an example of just how tired I was Sunday?

In game #5 I miscounted my kill points, and I should have won the primary instead of losing.

Jon & I decided to just go down our army lists to make sure we hadn't forgotten anyone. It helped.

Grimgob wrote:
"When someone has a crap list, I make a short post, usually along the lines of, "I'm not sure you understand how to play Orks," kind of like the one you got. Your list and expressed tactics for using it are fundamentally flawed. I can help someone tweak their engine to make it run more smoothly and get better performance and am glad to do so...

But your army list is like a car with square wheels, you've put sugar into the gas-tank, put in a $600 stereo with no locks on the door, and pimped it with 22" rims on one side, donuts on the other, and put hydraulics on the donuts to try balancing things out. I can't fix crap like that, I can only point out what a terrible car it is and how you need to go back to the drawing board."

After this post by Dash of Pepper said this about my Ork list and now that his list looks similer to mine, I do not post my army list anymore. Thank the Ork master of Dakka Dakka.

and if it were not for my bad addition skills at the end with kill points I would have taken best overall (best paint score I ever got, I'm so proud!)

Insults are not necessary or appropriate. -The Mgmt.

I'm pretty sure Dash said that before he knew how make an Ork list. His old lists were a total disaster that lacked any sort of shooting or anti-tank whatsoever. Playing against his horrible trukk spam was basically a turkey shoot.

Hiding your list like it's some kind of secret seems silly, but I won't reveal it out of respect .

To answer the other poster the recipe for quality orks is pretty straightforward these days: Start with deff-rollas, lootas a KFF Mek and at least one nobz unit with either Ghaz or a Warboss. Go from there.

Yeah, that or go horde Orks on foot like Shane. His army is a terror and he plays it fast.

I don't care what anyone says about horde Orks, they are savage. I have only seen him lose once with that army and that was to the winner of Ard Boyz semi's.

Kevin, I missed you this weekend. I PM'd my list to the poster hours ago. the post in question was before Dash knew how to make a propa ork list but not before he had plenty of sheeple to gang up on you if you disagreed with him and it was to show a point of why I don't post them anymore. I dont post my list because of all the bad advice that goes around and all the snipping, but I'm more than happy to share my list on a more personal level. Orks rock!

Kevin Nash wrote:

Grimgob wrote:
"When someone has a crap list, I make a short post, usually along the lines of, "I'm not sure you understand how to play Orks," kind of like the one you got. Your list and expressed tactics for using it are fundamentally flawed. I can help someone tweak their engine to make it run more smoothly and get better performance and am glad to do so...

But your army list is like a car with square wheels, you've put sugar into the gas-tank, put in a $600 stereo with no locks on the door, and pimped it with 22" rims on one side, donuts on the other, and put hydraulics on the donuts to try balancing things out. I can't fix crap like that, I can only point out what a terrible car it is and how you need to go back to the drawing board."

After this post by Dash of Pepper said this about my Ork list and now that his list looks similer to mine, I do not post my army list anymore. Thank the Ork master of Dakka Dakka.

and if it were not for my bad addition skills at the end with kill points I would have taken best overall (best paint score I ever got, I'm so proud!)

Insults are not necessary or appropriate. -The Mgmt.

I'm pretty sure Dash said that before he knew how make an Ork list. His old lists were a total disaster that lacked any sort of shooting or anti-tank whatsoever. Playing against his horrible trukk spam was basically a turkey shoot.

Hiding your list like it's some kind of secret seems silly, but I won't reveal it out of respect .

To answer the other poster the recipe for quality orks is pretty straightforward these days: Start with deff-rollas, lootas a KFF Mek and at least one nobz unit with either Ghaz or a Warboss. Go from there.

psshhhh, KFF mek

@Grimgob

I stopped posting my lists outside of battle reports for the same reason. Most of the people that chime in don't contribute much of value. I now ask people who I know play a certain army expertly for advice as they give good feedback.

Grimgob, I went back and looked at my posting history out of curiosity. Things change, but if you were to repost the same list, I'd give the same feedback. So what? Plenty of people think my flavor of Orks is messed up and needs help, but it doesn't stop me from succeeding with them.

That is one of the reason why I never post my armies, or give advice on the Army list forum.

#1. To give any advice, you have to know the army really well, and there are only about 3 armies I would be comfortable discussing. I learned that lesson in 3rd edition when I played my Thousand Sons Marines, and everyone who never played the army was giving horrible advice.

#2. What works for you may not work for others. I have seen people have great success with units that I could never get to work with me, and I have had a lot of success with armies that people say can't work. There are so many play styles and local meta games and so many other factors, that I am only comfortable with making generalizations like "You need more anti-tank".

Grimgob wrote:
"When someone has a crap list, I make a short post, usually along the lines of, "I'm not sure you understand how to play Orks," kind of like the one you got. Your list and expressed tactics for using it are fundamentally flawed. I can help someone tweak their engine to make it run more smoothly and get better performance and am glad to do so...

But your army list is like a car with square wheels, you've put sugar into the gas-tank, put in a $600 stereo with no locks on the door, and pimped it with 22" rims on one side, donuts on the other, and put hydraulics on the donuts to try balancing things out. I can't fix crap like that, I can only point out what a terrible car it is and how you need to go back to the drawing board."

After this post by Dash of Pepper said this about my Ork list and now that his list looks similer to mine, I do not post my army list anymore. Thank the Ork master of Dakka Dakka.

and if it were not for my bad addition skills at the end with kill points I would have taken best overall (best paint score I ever got, I'm so proud!)

Insults are not necessary or appropriate. -The Mgmt.

My favorite Dashofpepperism was his take on cybork bodies:

Give them all 'Eavy armor, and they have a 4+ armor and 4+ Feel no pain. However, I would urge you to drop cybork bodies. I would posit that an intelligent ork player will pretty much never be in a situation to *need* a 5+ invulnerable save...here's why. Your nobs start in a battlewagon and need no saves.

(From this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/267602.page but he posted the same advice about cybork in many threads.)

Got that? No "intelligent" ork player would take cybork! Well he was either wrong or has stopped being an intelligent player because every diversified nobz squad he's taken to recent tournaments has cybork. And yet he still goes on and on about how people copy his lists.

olympia, way to take that faaaar out of context.

That list *doesn't* require cybork bodies - and you're not putting the words together in the right order to quote me. I said that an intelligent ork player will probably never been in a situation to *need* a 5++, not that intelligent people don't *take* 5++. In the link you provided, I went through great lengths to explain why that's the case, how other units in the army can deal with power weapon heavy armies, and how given a 27-29" charge range, the Nobs can decide where to be and whom to fight in what conditions - making Cybork bodies irrelevant.

That's the same thread where you actually *did* accuse anyone of not agreeing with you of only playing against stupid players, or they would know better.

And now I know why you and Grimgob don't like me. He took the introductory statement to a book-length article of advice about a particular ork army configuration and separated it from the relevant documents. You both have centered on a tiny piece of a much larger conversation and made that your all-encompassing understanding of me. I pity you two for your unwillingness to see the forest for the candy bar wrapper on the path leading into it.

Dashofpepper wrote:olympia, way to take that faaaar out of context.

That list *doesn't* require cybork bodies - and you're not putting the words together in the right order to quote me. I said that an intelligent ork player will probably never been in a situation to *need* a 5++, not that intelligent people don't *take* 5++. In the link you provided, I went through great lengths to explain why that's the case, how other units in the army can deal with power weapon heavy armies, and how given a 27-29" charge range, the Nobs can decide where to be and whom to fight in what conditions - making Cybork bodies irrelevant.

That's the same thread where you actually *did* accuse anyone of not agreeing with you of only playing against stupid players, or they would know better.

And now I know why you and Grimgob don't like me. He took the introductory statement to a book-length article of advice about a particular ork army configuration and separated it from the relevant documents. You both have centered on a tiny piece of a much larger conversation and made that your all-encompassing understanding of me. I pity you two for your unwillingness to see the forest for the candy bar wrapper on the path leading into it.

I can take it FURTHER out of context.

Dashofpepper wrote:I...an...not that intelligent... I pity...the forest....

See? All it takes is clever quoting to say nothing like what people wanted to say. Now I have a statement putting Dash on record saying two things he probably would never say ever.

And aren't cybork bodies just insurance for those "oh, crap" situations than for frequent use that spezz mehrain armor gets?

From the same thread...

Based on my real experience in competitive tournaments, I prefer not to take cybork bodies.

Truth be told though, as my army has evolved to present me the best capabilities of taking on anything I come up against, I've actually....evolved past a nob squad....is the best way to put it. While its a good unit, and does its job very well, I don't use it anymore.

Olympia, I get....everyone here gets that you're butthurt.

Now go back on topic.

What's butthurt? Is that some sort of homophobic insult? Or is that taking it out of context?

Dashofpepper wrote:olympia, way to take that faaaar out of context.

That list *doesn't* require cybork bodies - and you're not putting the words together in the right order to quote me. I said that an intelligent ork player will probably never been in a situation to *need* a 5++, not that intelligent people don't *take* 5++. In the link you provided, I went through great lengths to explain why that's the case, how other units in the army can deal with power weapon heavy armies, and how given a 27-29" charge range, the Nobs can decide where to be and whom to fight in what conditions - making Cybork bodies irrelevant.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that if your opponent is also "intelligent" they might not let you dictate 100% of how the assault phase is going to go.

You'll also find that if your battlewagon gets wrecked your assault range might be... shortened.

Monster Rain wrote:
The problem with that line of reasoning is that if your opponent is also "intelligent" they might not let you dictate 100% of how the assault phase is going to go.

You'll also find that if your battlewagon gets wrecked your assault range might be... shortened.

Not necessarily dictating how the assault phase will go, but dictating who is going to assault where - that's readily done in....I can't give a percentage, but we'll say the vast majority of games. Anyway, this whole thing is off-topic; I only showed up because my name was being dragged through the mud and I was being quoted as saying things that are quite out of context.

Grimgob, Olympia, grow thicker skin.

Grimgob - if you don't like people telling you that they don't like your list (entertainingly even!) then don't post it online. If you think I'm wrong, look me up on Vassal for a game. Let me curb-stomp that random assembly of units you had originally posted. If you beat me, I'll make a public and humble apology for denigrating your list.

Olympia - I see that your country of origin isn't a native English speaking country, so I'm going to assume that you're not maliciously misinterpreting and quoting things out of context, and that instead you just don't read English so well. My advice for you: Get a second opinion from a native English speaker before doing the kind of things you've done, because you aren't understanding words assembled in a certain order in the method they should be read, or taking the appropriate meaning from them. Relax; I'm not out to get you, I haven't called you un-intelligent, and I'm not bashing you.

Shoo! This is a thread about a tournament you weren't at, Dash.

Back on topic - we had TWO Daemonhunters players there. I haven't seen a Daemonhost on the table in at LEAST 5 years.

Janthkin wrote:Shoo! This is a thread about a tournament you weren't at, Dash.

Back on topic - we had TWO Daemonhunters players there. I haven't seen a Daemonhost on the table in at LEAST 5 years.

Do you think that had something to do with people wanting mystics for the first mission?

Janthkin wrote:Shoo! This is a thread about a tournament you weren't at, Dash.

Back on topic - we had TWO Daemonhunters players there. I haven't seen a Daemonhost on the table in at LEAST 5 years.

Pictures or I don't believe you!

Monster Rain wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Shoo! This is a thread about a tournament you weren't at, Dash.

Back on topic - we had TWO Daemonhunters players there. I haven't seen a Daemonhost on the table in at LEAST 5 years.

Do you think that had something to do with people wanting mystics for the first mission?

I don't think so - it was a father/son situation, and neither list suggested anything like optimization. I think they just wanted to bring fun lists! I played one of them in round 1, and we were greatly amused at the tenacity of his single 50-man blob w/Commissar - it ate a 'stealer squad completely, most of my 19 gargoyles, and a chunk of a termagant troop. The screen faded out on the Commissar, 2 sergeants, and 1 normal trooper surrounded by about 30 'nids.

Yeah, I got to play the guy with the 2 hosts (I brought 3 to an RTT last year...just to mess with peoples minds).
He popped right into the open space between his Guard blob and 3 of my squads.
No way I was going to chance a BloodBoil roll and shot him to death right away.

As for the 50 man blob...3 Vindis over 3 turns pretty well reduced them to a manageable 6 guys...but his cover saves were pretty good that game.

Dash,
Your statements on cybork bodies are categorical so the context is clear--you believed, erroneously, that there was no situation in which cybork was needed. Try as you might, you can't fudge your way out of categorical statements. You further provided your anecdotal evidence that you had never encountered a tournament situational where cybork bodies were merited. You were not taken out of context. Why not just admit that you grew as a player and realized the error of your ways, both on the efficacy of cybork bodies and the power of diversified nobz? Pity, though, that we won't see the ork lists from this tournament.

And as for ESL, you need to bone up on your geography.

Dashofpepper wrote:
Olympia - I see that your country of origin isn't a native English speaking country, so I'm going to assume that you're not maliciously misinterpreting and quoting things out of context, and that instead you just don't read English so well. My advice for you: Get a second opinion from a native English speaker before doing the kind of things you've done, because you aren't understanding words assembled in a certain order in the method they should be read, or taking the appropriate meaning from them. Relax; I'm not out to get you, I haven't called you un-intelligent, and I'm not bashing you.

While I don't want to throw fuel on a fire, they speak English in Ireland...

Nevermind!

@ Wolflord Patrick:

Thanks!

Everyone get back on topic or this thread will be closed.

Sorry, I actually regret even posting in this mess...

I can't believe Dash has such a hard time convincing people that he's hilarious.

Although the irony of somebody telling everybody else to grow thicker skin, but that his "name was being dragged through the mud" did make me laugh.

Wolflord Patrick wrote:
While I don't want to throw fuel on a fire, they speak English in Ireland...

Oh, that's Ireland not Italy. My bad!

Then I guess it was maliciousness, not misunderstanding. =p

I think we have taken this thread as far as we can.