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Hey everyone, just got back from another great event from the SoCal Games Workshop crew. I got to see a bunch of the Dakka gang: Grimgob, Hulksmash, Yakface, Blackmoor, Lambadomy, ChristianA, Kelly, Janthkin, and a bunch more of the guys I can't remember right now because I am tired. Good to see everyone again!

Great event, well organized in a nice big space with good terrain, although there was not enough LOS blocking terrain. One big piece in the middle of each board would have been perfect. The hotel was super nice too, right next to Disneyland.

Anyway, on to the parts people actually are interested in.

Tournament Structure: 100 possible battle points, 40 painting points, 30 player judged comp, 30 player judged sports. Comp and sports were a simple thumbs up thumbs down. Your first two thumbs down in either category are ignored. Pretty much everyone got a thumbs up in all of the their games and ended up with 60 points here. I still don't like comp, but this wasn't so bad. Also, every player got a reroll token to reroll one die or force an opponent to reroll one of their die rolls during the tournament. I really like this mechanic as it adds a lot of fun and tension to the game as you can ward off some atrocious luck at a critical moment such as stealing the initiative or trying to make the game stop or end early, etc.

There was a great mix of armies, with every codex but Sisters of battle represented. Always nice to see a wide variety of armies.

My Army:

HQ
Bjorn P.Cannon 1 270
Rune Priest JotWW, Storm Caller 1 100

Troops
Grey Hunters Flamer 5 75
Grey Hunters Flamer 5 75
Grey Hunters Melta, Razorback, A.Cannon 6 155
Grey Hunters Melta, Razorback, A.Cannon 6 155

Elites
Dreadnought L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 145
Dreadnought L.Cannon, H.Flamer 1 145

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Typhoon 1 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 1 90
Land Speeder Typhoon 1 90

Heavy Support
Long Fangs M.Launcher x 5, Razorback, L.Cannon 7 215
Long Fangs M.Launcher x 5, Razorback, L.Cannon 7 215
Long Fangs M.Launcher x 5, Razorback 7 180

Totals 50 2000


Game 1: Dawn of War deployment. Any unit may deep strike if they choose to on turn one instead of walking on the board. Primary: Kill Points, Secondary: Wipe out H.Support, Tertiary: End Game with one HQ within 6" of table center
Opponent: Patrick
Army: Imperial Fists

HQ
Khan: Moondrakken
Librarian: Bike, Epistolary, Null Zone, Avenger

Troops
Bike Squad x8: P.Weapon, M.Gun x 2, Attack Bike w/ M.Melta
Tactical Marines x 10: Fist, M.Gun, P.Cannon, Rhino, x-tra S.Bolter, x-armor
Tactical Marines x 10: Fist, M.Gun, P.Cannon, Rhino, x-tra S.Bolter, x-armor
Scouts x 10: Cloaks, H.Bolter, Telion

Fast
L.Speeders x 3: M.Melta, H.Flamer
L.Speeders x 3: M.Melta, H.Flamer

Heavy
T.Fire Cannon

This was the softest list I faced all day and I lost as badly to it as I have ever lost a tournament game before! Three things went wrong. I made the ultimate tournament goof: I didn't read the mission before starting. I thought I knew how it worked but one word had been changed form the pre-tournament mission to the actual mission. I thought if you went first, you MUST deep strike or choose to come in from normal reserves. It was changed to you MAY deepstrike or come on from your board edge as normal. HUGE MISTAKE NOT READING THIS. Second mess up: I forgot to consider what Khan could do to the list, namely: outflank. That is a face plam as I know the marine dex forwards and backwards, I just didn't think about it.

So, Bjorn got me first turn, I deep struck everything all over the board as I have a lot of units. I lost a speeder to crashing into terrain (here, have a kill point, buddy!) and one mishapped and didn't come on until turn 5. Had I read the mission fully instead of assuming I knew it, I would have just come on the board and been in infinitely better position to fight instead of spread out all over kingdom come.

The third major mishap was my abominable luck. The dice just shat on me. I was at a large kill point disadvantage, but still could easily handle this army. Patrick was a very good player and didn't make any major errors but there was no reason for me to lose. I was only hitting with about 1/3 of my shots, I charged 15 grey hunters into 10 tac marines, didn't do a single wound, lost combat and all squads either ran off the board, or failed fearless checks and were wiped out in combat. It was just ugly, everything went wrong. Bjorn almost got me back in the game by charging the big bike squad with Khan and the libby, none of whom could have hurt him, but failed the charge by 1/16 of an inch.

The one big thing that could have changed everything was that my opponent said his army was coming in from reserves. He then out flanked his tacs and bikes. I let him do it even though he didn't declare outflanking (which is one reason I forgot about that ability as he didn't declare it during deployment). I could have been strict on it and forced him to come in normally, but I decided to let it slide. He was very thankful for that and hell, it is just a game in the end.

Anwyay, long story short, I couldn't do anything, my dice sucked, none of my big plays worked. The wheels just fell off the bus. The last little money shot to my face was having a chance to kill his techmarine with a twin linked las cannon. His T.Fire Cannon was destroyed, he was in the wide open, 88% of hitting, instant death, no save, and....wait for it....I missed! Doh! There went a kill point and the 5 bonus points for wiping out his heavy support!

Score: 3 battle points to my opponents 17. Not a good way to start.


Game 2: Pitched Battle deployment. Primary: Most scoring units within 6" of the table center. Secondary: One HQ within 6" of table center. Tertiary: Eliminate all enemy fast attack choices.
Opponent: ChristianA
Army: Space Wolves

Defenders of the Fang
HQ
Rune Priest: JotWW, Storm Caller

Elites
3 Wolf Guard: C.Melta x 3, Razorback, Las, Plas
3 Wolf Guard: C.Melta x 3, Razorback, Las, Plas
8 Wolf Scouts, M.bombs x 8, m.gun

Troops
5 Grey Hunters: M.Gun, Razorback, las, plas
5 Grey Hunters: M.Gun, Razorback, las, plas
5 Grey Hunters: M.Gun, Razorback, las, plas
5 Grey Hunters: M.Gun, Razorback, las, plas
5 Grey Hunters: Flamer, Razorback, las, plas
5 Grey Hunters: Flamer, Razorback, las, plas

Fast
2 L.Speeders: H.Flamer, M.Melta
T.Wolf Calvary: T.Hammer, S.Shield x 2, M.Bombs x 2

This was a shoot out at the OK Coral. With no LOS blocking terrain midboard, it would come down to who went first and Bjorn proved why he is the linchpin to my army, yet again. I went first with Bjorn's ability and either stunned, disarmed or destroyed 5 of the 8 Razorbacks. My opponent just had nothing to swing back with. We traded shots, I advanced and sat in the middle. It was funny how incredibly terrible we both rolled. Only the sheer volume of weapons we had enabled us to do anything. In one turn, two long fang packs fired 5 kraks, not a single hit out of 10 shots. In two full turns of firing frag missiles, not a single hit, everything scattered. ChristianA went two turns without scratching the paint on ANY of my vehicles. We were both laughing at how pathetic our luck was. Shooting like Orks. Not exactly the Emperor's finest.

ChristianA ended up having to banzai charge the objective with all of his little squads Braveheart style. But it was too little too late. My dreads went out to meet his kamikaze assault and killed any squads that got close. The T.Wolves soaked up two full turns of shooting but still made into the table center. Bjorn handled them though, killing three.

Once again I affirmed my belief that the h.flamer/m.melta speeder is overrated. They flew in, flamed long fangs, killed one or two, then died. Those things simply lack the endurance of the Typhoons. My Typhoons shoot all game. I usually only lose one.

ChristianA and I are friends and we had a really fun game. It was a battle of who went first and with Bjorn, I had the edge and won, 20 battle points to 0. Had he gone first, it very well could have been the other way around but I think having Long Fangs, who can't be shut down with a single shot, would have given me the edge.

Game 3: Pitched Battle Deployment. No outflanking, scouts or infiltrate. Primary: have more kill points alive in the other player's deployment zone at game's end then your opponent. Dedicated transports don't count. Secondary: Prevent any enemy HQ's from ending the game in your deployment zone. Tertiary: Have a heavy support unit in your enemy's deployment zone.
Opponent: George
Army: Blood Angels

HQ
Mephiston

Elites
Sanguinary Priests x 2: J.Pack, L.Claw, L.Claw. I.Pistol, I.Pistol
Chaplain: M.Bombs

Troops
Death Company x 8, P.Weapon x 3, P.Fist
Land Raider
A.Squad x 10, M.Gun x 2, Fist, I.Pistol
A.Squad x 10, M.Gun x 2, Fist, I.Pistol

Fast
Attack Bike: M.Melta
Attack Bike: M.Melta
Attack Bike: M.Melta

Heavy
Dev Squad x 5: M.Launcher x 2, L.Cannon x 2
Dev Squad x 5: M.Launcher x 2, L.Cannon x 2

This was a list of too many toys, not enough boys, IMO. He definitely had the tools to take me down if he played well and got lucky, but too many points were sunk into his squads. He didn't have enough bodies to play the assault game, IMO.

I got first turn with Bjorn but he stole the initiative on me and at that time I didn't know that I could use my reroll token to force him to reroll a die, I thought I could only use it on myself (another example of knowing the rules of the game) but it turned out to be a benefit for me in the end.

He had chosen to deep strike his assault squads and combat squadded them in an attempt to maximize scoring opportunities. He initially tried to take out my ap2 weapons to remove the threats to his Land Raider and Mephiston. We traded shots but my far, far superior fire power wasted his dev squads in short order and forced him to come to me. With the reroll on reserves from decent of angels and only scattering a D6, he was able to come in and do some damage to me early, popping a few vehicles. He bum rushed me on a flank with Mephiston and death company and collapsed the force there. Bjorn and a dread came in to support things while my units on the opposite flank bum rushed up his now undefended side.

He damn near pulled out the win on me when he crushed all of defense units on the flank, but Bjorn and the dread handled business. They each wiped out an assault squad and then Bjorn single handedly pimp slapped Mephiston's Twlight wannabe ass in combat. That is the second time Bjorn has killed Mephiston in single combat in a tournament. The invul save, armor 13 and venerable plus large amount of attacks means that he is hard to kill. He also wounds Meph on a 2+. Despite preferred enemy and a strength 10 attack, Meph got the uber pwnage. That was crucial as Mephiston would have walked through my lines unopposed.

My las cannons were epic fail. Even twin linked, they missed three straight turns, and even when hitting, did nothing.

A squad of Longs Fangs made a dash for the deployment zone in the h.bolter razorback to try and get the tertiary objective. They met a grissly fate at the hands of Death Company mid field (but the tough old bastards took a few guys with them!). I ended up with my Rune Priest and 4 kill points in my opponent's deployment zone to his none in mine.

I finished with 17 battle points to my opponents 0.

My opponent said I was a pleasure to play, but he gave my army a thumbs down on comp. When I asked why--stating that comp in a tournament seems to be an oxymoron to me and that in 5th ed things were pretty balanced.--his response was that if I had ever played Daemons in Fantasy I would know why comp was necessary. I made the observation that that was a different game, but that didn't seem to matter. In the end it didn't make a difference as everyone else gave me full soft scores and his was dropped. I thought it was pretty lame considering his army was no soft kiss either. I gave him thumbs up on comp and sports as he was fun to play and I think comp at a tournament is dumb. I want people to bring their best armies to play as it is more fun and challenging.


Game 4: Pitched Battle deployment. Primary: 5 objectives placed by players anywhere on the board no more than 12" from an edge or another objective. Secondary: Destroy one enemy HQ. Tertiary: End the game with one unit in the enemy deployment zone. Gravity flux: every game turn, roll a die. On a 1, the entire board is difficult terrain, dangerous to vehicles. Assault and pistol weapons are twin linked. On a 6, all vehicles become fast, if already fast, may move 12" and fire everything but all BS is reduced by one. If you have an event, do not roll the next turn. (I hate these wacky, random game events. Save them for campaigns, I say).
Opponent: Cooper
Army: Word Bearers

HQ
Lash Prince, Wings
Lash Prince, Wings

Elites
Chosen x 5: M.Gun x 4, Rhino

Troops
Plague Marines x 5: P.Gun x 2, Rhino, x-arm, C.melta
Plague Marines x 7: M.Gun x 2, Champ, Fist, Rhino, x-arm, c.melta
Plague Marines x 7: M.Gun x 2, Champ, Fist, Rhino, x-arm, c.melta
Berzerkers x 8: Champ, Fist, Rhino, x-arm, C.melta

Heavy
Oblits x 2
Havoks x 5: A.Cannons x 2, L.Cannons x 2
Havoks x 5: A.Cannons x 2, L.Cannons x 2

Cooper is a gaming buddy of mine too, and he and I just played each other in an RTT last weekend! We tied last week with the exact same lists and similar mission so I knew he was a really skilled player with a super nice looking, and solid army. Luckily for me, he had thrown more than a few brews back the night before and was feeling a little hung over. Again, there was no LOS blocking terrain in the middle, only large buildings on the flanks. Again, Bjorn's reroll got me first turn. I <3 Bjorn.

This meant that unless he stole the initiative, it was a shooting gallery. He didn't steal the initiative and so I opened up on him, destroying a Rhino and neutering a havok squad. He tried to bum rush me but my massed fire power and my dice not hating me like the first day of the event meant that I was able to slow him down. I also managed to gun his Lash Princes down before they could get a lash off. I am of the opinion that the sorcerer is the better choice for a lash platform, but that is just me.

I was shooting him up badly, but Cooper is a smart player. He maneuvered well had his Plague Marines conga lined on two objectives each.

Turn 4 gravity flux occurred. I didn't want to risk immobilizing any of my vehicles so I stayed put and shot more. Cooper decided to go for it anyway and risked the dangerous terrain. He secured his hold on the majority of the objectives. He also managed to destroy Bjorn with his outflanking chosen squad (which thanks to gravity flux had twin linked melta guns) which was the first time in ages Bjorn had died. That also meant he was now an additional objective!

Turn 5 I had to hang wang and move flat out with most of my vehicles or the game would be a tie, two objectives to two.

Luckily, the game went to turn 6. Cooper used his reroll token to try and make the game end early, but it didn't work. Turn 6 I was able to secure Bjorn's wreck and an additional objective and get a unit in his deployment zone. Bjorn proves useful even in death!

I ended up with 20 points to Cooper's 8. Cooper's a lot of fun to play and it was another enjoyable game. He won an award for painting, can't remember which, so congratz to him.


Game 5: Spearhead. Primary: Kill Points. Secondary: Table quarters, 2 points per quarter with more units with a weapon skill in them than the opponent.
Opponent: Hulksmash
Army: Adeptus Mechanicus counts as Daemons. (Awesome army, very creative. I hope he posts some pictures up of it).

HQ
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot, bolt, mastery of sorcerery
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot, bolt, mastery of sorcerery
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot, bolt, mastery of sorcerery
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot, bolt, mastery of sorcerery

Elites
Fiends x 6
Fiends x 6
Bloodcrushers x 8, Musician

Troops
Horrors x 5: Bolt
Horrors x 5: Bolt
Horrors x 5: Bolt, Changling
Plague Beraers x 7

Fast
Screamers x 5

Heavy
Daemon Prince: MoT, Bolt, Gaze
Daemon Prince: MoT, Bolt, Gaze
Daemon Prince: MoS, Pavane, Iron Hide, Breath of Chaos, Aura, Musk

We were at table 2 and trailing the leaders by a decent margin, but not so much that a massacre wouldn't put either of us in the running for best general or best overall. Hulksmash and I are buddies so I knew this would be a fun game as he and I always have a really fun game. I also knew this would be a damn hard game as Hulk is a damn good player and only a 20 point game would help either of us. He also narrowly beat me at the last SoCal slaughter in space which prevented me from winning best overall and earning my golden ticket that GT, so I felt like I needed a little redemption!

I won first turn without Bjorn this time but chose to go second as I wanted to maximize my shooting. I would have lost a turn if I went first as the Daemons would not be on the board.

Hulk then put me in the worst deployment zone, as he should have.

He got the wave he wanted in first, which was all of the assault units and the Horrors. The problem with this for me was that while not much could shoot me, there were a lot of units and they all had multiple wounds with eternal warrior. Luckily one of the horrors misshaped and died on the way in.

My shooting was subpar to say the least, missing about twice for every hit and then wounding only occasionally, but Hulk's saves were worse. What few wounds I managed to put on him nearly always went through his invul. I did serious damage to him the first turn, focusing on the horrors who had taken out a Razorback and wiped them all out but one model and wiping out the squad squad of Horrors with the changeling. I then took a fiend squad down to a single model. I ignored the blood crushers as they were in cover and I had a turn or two to avoid them.

Turn two more Damons joined the fray and he managed to pop another two razorbacks in assault with the blisteringly fast Fiends and Screamers. He also shot up a squad of long fangs, killing a few of them.

I shot up a big chunk of stuff, including a Daemon prince who despite me only putting four wounds on him with most of my army's fire power, failed all four saves. The Second Daemon prince at least made 2 saves before dying. Bjorn charged and killed the screamers who had surrounded him to keep him away from the fiends. My surviving grey hunters shot and assaulted the fiends (better to be the hammer than the anvil when you can't escape) but dum dum the dreadnought rolled snake eyes on his assault roll from 1.2" away and didn't make it into combat with the same fiends. Bummer. Good thing I had shot the crap out of hem with a unit of long fangs to drop them down to three models. End result: one dead fiend, one Grey hunter lives. The fiends hit and run off the combat towards Long Fangs.

Turn three most of his army comes in, the plague bearers mishap and die (thank goodness!). His heralds shoot me up well, destroying the dread who slipped and fell. The Fiends hit a squad of Long Fangs but failed to roll any rends, only killing two. The fangs hold and kill a a fiend and another one falls to fearless wounds which wipes the squad. Don't mess with the old men! His last Damon prince Pavane's a unit of Long Fangs into range of the Crushers who go through the poor old guys like a lawn mower. OK, maybe you can mess with the old men.

I was in deep gak now as the Crushers were in range of my fire base. I am thinking that I may lose at this point.

My surviving razorbacks continued to move into table quarters while Grey Hunters on foot ran for it. Bjorn runs towards the crushers hoping to somehow get them in combat where they can't hurt him or any of the rest of my army.

Turn four was the turning point of the game. If Hulk had a good turn, it was curtains for me. He shot at and tried to kill the last Grey hunter from the squad that assaulted the fiends. He went to ground and somehow lived. Hulk then tried to shoot up the last Grey hunters on foot that were holding a table quarter. They went to ground and two lived with a wound on the Rune Priest. He dropped a speeder, stunned my last dread, knocked the missile launchers off a second speeder and moved his Crushers forward to charge the remaining long fangs. If he made the charge, it would be a tie at best for me. He rolled the dice and came up a half inch short. Whew!

Due to the Crusher's failed charge, Bjorn was just in range to get them and locked them up, taking away the biggest threat to my army. After that it was just mop up. I dropped his last prince and another heraled with my entire army's shooting over the nest two turns while he destroyed another speeder and failed to kill any of my units with a WS in the table quarters.

End result: 20 for me, 0 to Hulk. Great game with a great opponent.



After a close fought game on the top table decided by a single kill point, I ended up with best general. The winner of the top table actually had more battle points than me, but he won best over all (beat me by 2 points, if I hadn't missed that damn techmarine in game one with a twin linked las cannon, I would have won best overall!). So, I defaulted to best general, earning my golden ticket. I also got a battle force and a cool medal. The overall prize support was awesome, and the medals were a nice touch.

I had 80 out of 100 battle points, 31 out of 40 painting points (the best two guys had 35 each) and max comp and sportsmanship for 171 out of 200 points. Best Overall had 173.

Great tournament: well run, all 5 opponents were good players, good sports and good fun. I didn't like mission 4's special rule, but hey, take the good with the bad. I highly encourage anyone that has not yet tried a tournament, to give it a go. They are not cutthroat, crazy games as a lot of people think they are. Most everyone is friends or acquaintances and very friendly to new comers (I got to play 4 guys I know, 3 of which are friends of mine through gaming). I got to see a TON of super cool armies and list ideas and just have a fun weekend out with the fellas talking nerd. Some of the armies there were beautiful too, especially the first and second place painted armies which were NMM Grey Knights and awesome Ulthwe with free hand designs all over them.

For anyone who's curious, the top battle points armies were (if I remember correctly): Orks, Wolves, Orks, Nids, Eldar (of the Foot variety, of which I am quite fond!)

Again, all this talk about Orks sucking is so far off base. Orks routinely place well in big events. I have NEVER been to a tournament in 5th ed where Orks didn't perform well if they were present and in fact, they usually kick copious amounts of ass. Eldar too, are still great. It's the player not the list that really matters. Perhaps in people's local areas these armies don't do well, but at large, they are great armies.

So anyway, give the tournament scene a try! They are super fun.

Thanks for the rundown of the event. Congrats on your golden ticket as well sir!

Pretty crazy how you and Hulk's game was so close up to turn 4 then turned to a full massacre, that's the nature of Daemons though... all or nothing.

I wish I could have made it across the desert for this one, sounds like it was a great time. When's the next GT in SoCal?

good read, although I havent read a GT bat rep in a while where eldar do well so I would say your a bit off base there. Anyways, congrats on the the ticket, next time pictures!

@Bladewalker
Yeah it was a great time. Really fun event. Phazeal knows what he's about. I disagree with him on some minor points, but on the whole, I wouldn't miss any of the SoCal GW crew's events.

The next big GT, I believe, is the Broadside Bash which is in February. I will be going for sure, as will a lot of other guys. Last year they had 40 to 50 people if memory serves. It was a great turnout.

Hulk and I always have fun, close games. He is a pleasure to play if you ever get the chance. Very, very good, nails lists but a fun guy. We were laughing our asses off most of our game at the stupid dice. It got tense turn 3 and 4 when it was all up in the air, but after that we just started laughing again and rolling dice.

@Mafty
I totally respect your opinion but in the GT and RTT's I play in (which are a lot) Eldar are always in the hunt. Often, the final score doesn't reflect how well someone did. For example, Keith and Blackmoor, both running foot Eldar with a single skimmer, were running in the top three tables until round four when they both lost and fell out of contention. My super wolves of doom and death got knocked out of Ard Boyz semi finals with a tie game to Mechdar.

The Eldar dex has all the tools to win a tournament, but they don't show up so often anymore. Typically there are only one or two, maybe three Eldar players to 40% of the field split between IG, Wolves and Blood Angles right now.

So again, you are free to hold your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

And Orks rock, I laugh when I see people saying they are the weakest book, that is just so far off base that it is comical.

I missed entry in the tourney, but it was real fun I bought a few guard units to fill out my Traitor Guard. Played a few pick up games with some old buddies on the free play tables. Seen alot of my old buddies from Orange County I have not seen in years, even my old game store owner Mac was there playing a RPG game like always.

That's cool that you had a good time. That's what matters most anyway. Maybe you'll get a ticket next time.

Congrats on getting best general!! And it's awesome that you got to see/play some other Dakka members!

One comment on this:

Reecius wrote:My opponent said I was a pleasure to play, but he gave my army a thumbs down on comp. When I asked why--stating that comp in a tournament seems to be an oxymoron to me and that in 5th ed things were pretty balanced.--his response was that if I had ever played Daemons in Fantasy I would know why comp was necessary. I made the observation that that was a different game, but that didn't seem to matter. In the end it didn't make a difference as everyone else gave me full soft scores and his was dropped. I thought it was pretty lame considering his army was no soft kiss either. I gave him thumbs up on comp and sports as he was fun to play and I think comp at a tournament is dumb. I want people to bring their best armies to play as it is more fun and challenging.

I agree that he shouldn't have given you minimum composition given the list he had taken. However, most of the lists you've posted I would think would score low on comp. I can't believe you got maximum points for it after his was dropped!

I can see the place for composition in a tournament, but if people are going to give maximum points to your list and a lot of the others on here, it does seem completely pointless.

I think a better system for comp (assuming a tournament wanted to include it) would be to rank your opponents armies in order from best comp to worst. Otherwise, it seems like things like the above will take place- someone (imho, justifiably if his list had not also been comp-unfriendly) dinging another person on comp being an unfair gesture, since everyone else is just trading maximum comp points back and forth.

Again, I don't really think he should have done it given his own list (unless he was expecting you to do the same) but I definitely would have marked most of these lists down on comp! They're the top builds for a reason, and you would think composition scores would exist to deter that, not reward it equally to taking a more comp-friendly build (such as that of your first opponent... ironically, the only game you lost! although it seems you did so because of a gentlemanly gesture allowing him to flank without declaring, and the change to the mission).

Just my $0.02... and again thanks for the reports and congrats in getting best general, it looks very well deserved! Especially for pulling it out after a loss in the first round . In the end, I guess you would have gotten this no matter what comp scores had been given to you... so it's sort of a moot point!

Edit: I just noticed that it seems comp was only "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" for this event, which changes things a little. I can't see any of your opponents other than the first having a fair argument for giving you a "thumbs down", again unless they were expecting to receive the same back! Also not trying to take the thread off-topic, just wanted to respond to that comment you'd made about the comp.

Cheers,
RiTides

YAY Peanut Butter Cups!

See you in Vegas if not before

Hey Reecius!

My wife says "Good job Peanut Butter Cups!"

Grats on the Golden Ticket; hopefully I'll see you in Vegas. I agree with you on the composition; its annoying.

Reecius:

It seems that Phazael's comp system worked then, huh?

The one guy that tried to douche you with your Comp had his vote ignored.

What was his problem with your army, anyway? It was competitive but I don't think it was an exploitation or broken...

@Dash and Dodiez

Thanks! Hopefully i will see you both in Vegas, if not sooner! I am for sure going to go to the Nova next year and Adepticon as well as Wargames Con if I can swing it. I had a money crunch this summer so I had to cancel some travel plans.

@Monster Rain

It was still kind of pointless to have a comp system where just about everyone got maxed comp and sports. It just seems superfluous and opens the door for possible abuse.

I honestly think a system with thumbs down thumbs up would work if it only determined tie breakers, not your overall score.

My list dominates the shooting phase but still assaults decently well. A lot of armies will have a really tough time against me if they don't play very smart. I think that it is totally fine for a tournament, as have all but one of my tournament opponents in the now 4 tournaments I have used it at. But, comp is totally subjective, so you never know what you will get.

@RiTides

I agree with almost all of what you said. The soft scores just don't add anything to the experience. The guy that docked me was docked on comp by other players. His list is min maxed and has Meph, who makes a lot of people cringe.

Comp doesn't work. I understand WHY people want it in theory but in practice it is a failure. The top tables were all top lists. It made no difference. Nearly no one got any points deducted due to comp or sports. All it really did was enable people to get chipmunked.

The guy I played was fine to game with, but his rationale for docking my comp score was utterly irrational. He kept referencing Fantasy which has absolutely nothing to do with 40K, and his army was designed to go for the throat. He knew he would have a tough go with my list and I think he was just mad he drew me. Who knows, I can only guess at his true intentions. Even with all that baloney, I would enjoy playing him again, he was good and knew his rules.

There is no system that will allow the average player to bring Necrons or Daemon Hunters and be on equal footing with Wolves, IG or BA. It just won't happen. It all comes down to player skill, match ups and luck. Comp only adds a way to screw people, which is why I don't think it belongs at a tournament. But that is just my opinion. If you bring a weaker army you can't rely on a comp system to boost you up, you must simply accept that you will have a tougher road than most and play at a superior skill level.


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@RiTides

You also made a good point in noting that the one army I did lose to was the "softest" list. Patrick was good, did what he had to do and beat a superior army that also won the roll to go first.

The other lists I played were all super tough, full bore tournament armies. My list is one I would not even bring to a Saturday pick-up game. It wouldn't be fun in 9 out of 10 cases. I like to bring themed, medium level lists for pick-up games for a challenge and a laugh. But at a tournament, bring the pain. That is where you should be coming with your A game as it is more intense and fun.

Comp only gets in the way of all that. Let people play their best game with their best list and have fun. Comp brings to much subjectivity and room for emotions to flare.

Cheers for the response! That's really good reasoning.

I posted that because I am currently on the fence about it at tournies, since it doesn't seem to work very well- as you said, just "chipmunking" a few people, while not making any difference overall for most.

I play the exact same way for pick-up games (themed, medium level lists) but have been bringing these to tournaments and running into brick walls like most of the lists you faced! So I was weighing the options of A) Bringing a tougher list B) Continuing with my list, and just going for fun without much chance of placing, or C) Finding out if there was a comp system that actually worked.

Once again, cheers for the response, gives me some good stuff to think about on that issue

Reecius wrote:
@Monster Rain
My list dominates the shooting phase but still assaults decently well. A lot of armies will have a really tough time against me if they don't play very smart. I think that it is totally fine for a tournament, as have all but one of my tournament opponents in the now 4 tournaments I have used it at. But, comp is totally subjective, so you never know what you will get.

Oh, I hate soft scores too. It just seemed that even though someone tried to bone you with them you still won.

Something's got to be said for that.

Good quick battle reports and good job on the win. I agree that Eldar and Orks are still good. Pretty much any army can be good really if the player using it is good.

Monster Rain wrote:It seems that Phazael's comp system worked then, huh?

If by "worked" you mean "made absolutely no difference and might as well have not been there at all", then yes.

MorbidlyObeseMonkey wrote:Good quick battle reports and good job on the win. I agree that Eldar and Orks are still good. Pretty much any army can be good really if the player using it is good.

Monster Rain wrote:It seems that Phazael's comp system worked then, huh?

If by "worked" you mean "made absolutely no difference and might as well have not been there at all", then yes.

No, that's not what I meant at all. It would have made a difference if more than one person had thought that Reecius' army was a total cheesefest.

Reecius wrote:It was still kind of pointless to have a comp system where just about everyone got maxed comp and sports. It just seems superfluous and opens the door for possible abuse.

I honestly think a system with thumbs down thumbs up would work if it only determined tie breakers, not your overall score.

My list dominates the shooting phase but still assaults decently well. A lot of armies will have a really tough time against me if they don't play very smart. I think that it is totally fine for a tournament, as have all but one of my tournament opponents in the now 4 tournaments I have used it at. But, comp is totally subjective, so you never know what you will get.

First, understand what Phazael's comp system was asking: thumbs down signifies "I did not enjoy playing against this list." It's a purely subjective question, and it's one your opponent is entitled to answer "no" to, irrespective of your opinion or the 'ardness of his list. If you accept that it is the responsibility of you, as a player, to contribute to your opponent's enjoyment of the tournament experience (and his obligation to do the same for you), then the question makes some sense.

But it is a purely subjective question - I enjoyed The Dark General's 24 Bloodcrusher list at the SiS, but many people did not.

Congratulations on your win! I wish I'd had a shot at you in that last mission - I think it would have been very interesting. Not that I'm complaining - fighting against Yakface is always a pleasure, too. I'll take a shot at you when you move up here.

Battle points went Orks, Wolves, Tyranids (twice - we tied at 73), Orks (Grimgob was at 72).

Grats man!

Thanks Guys!

@Janthkin
Yeah, I was hoping to play you to so that I could see your list in action. You tied for third with another Nid player in battle points so you obviously know what you are about! There were some rock hard lists at that tournament and no one had an easy path to the top tables.

I think Phazeal has good intentions, but I personally feel that the comp question should only impact the results in a minor way. The Blood Angel player and I had an enjoyable game, but he just didn't like my army for whatever reason. What are you going to do? He said I was a great guy to game against but he could have torpedoed my chances to win a ticket if the first thumbs down wasn't ignored. It stinks to think that someone else's opinion of your army can determine if you win or lose, no matter if the list is legal and fair to bring within the limits of the rules. It is too subjective, IMO.

I have never given a low comp score in a 40K game because I feel that it is silly. Why should someone be punished for bringing the rock to my scissors. I enjoy a tough game, even if I lose (although winning is so much better, obviously). But not everyone feels that way, obviously.

I agree that the game should be fun for both players. However, people have different views on what is fun or not and one player should not be punished because he or she does not fit into the other player's view on how the game should be played.

Reecius wrote:
There is no system that will allow the average player to bring Necrons or Daemon Hunters and be on equal footing with Wolves, IG or BA. It just won't happen.

Alright, thems are FIGHTING WORDS! Your Blood Angels, my Necrons, Vassal at a time of your (and mine) convenience. ITS ON LIKE DONKEY KONG!

feth Blood Angels, I'll bring my doom wolves!

Your Crons would choke faster then my Chargers in a playoff game!

Reecius wrote:@
There is no system that will allow the average player to bring Necrons or Daemon Hunters and be on equal footing with Wolves, IG or BA. It just won't happen.

I wanted to pick this statement out. How about a comp system as follows:


No army may take more than 4 of any named weapon ( or model that can produce such a weapon) that can produce a str 5 or more shot, No more than 5 of any named CC weapon of str 8 or higher and no more than one unit that can cast psychic powers with a die roll are allowed per force org. slot.


Give that a whirl in the army builder and see if Necrons and DH don't compete with stuff now. (I honestly don't know, but it sounds good at first glance) No more than 4 missiles launchers in an army, 4 meltaguns, 4 T-Hammers, 4 lascannons (should there be language to count a twin-linked version of a weapon as the regular version?). This seems to open the army book up for some serious diversity and parity.


**Edited to add die roll for psychic powers**

Oh, you are playing Space Wolves. Flavor of the Month bandwagon jumper.

Get your butt on Skype! I want a vassal game!

I'm going to gauss your Space Wolves into little bits of ash. Then my scarabs are going to scoop up your ashy bits and give them to my Deceiver, who is a GOD. He's going to use his God powers to compact your space wolf ashes into a CD, which DJ Nightbringer is going to turn into a techno CD that my Necrons are going to do the robot to. That's right. My Necrons are going to dance to your ashes while giving a Gauss light show.

@Darth

The problem with that, or any similar system is that it bones shallow dexes. Deep dexes like MEQ's, IG, etc. can get around it fairly easily.

What about Tau? Only 4 Rail Guns? Only 4 Burst Cannons?

Crons? Only 5 Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Immortals or Pariahs (not that anyone takes them!) or 4 Wraiths?

Eldar: Only 4 S.Lasers, S.Cannons or B.Lances? ONly one Farseer? Only one warlock in troops?

Sisters: Only 4 flamers or meltas? That's all they have!

Grey Knights: Only 4 psycannons or incinerators?

and the list goes on and on.

For one, pragmatically, it means people would have to drastically alter their lists. For two, it hurts the weaker armies more than it hurts the stronger armies which is the opposite effect of what it was meant to.

Even in Oz where they run tiered systems in Fantasy, giving weak armies more points than strong armies, what often happens is that it only provides more VP's to the stronger armies to kill!

Comp just does not work. 5th ed 40K is as good as we have had it. Stick to book missions which punish MSU armies which are the best right now, and balances things fairly well.

If someone brings a weaker dex, they simply have to accept that they will have a tougher road to walk, but that it will be so much more glorious if they succeed!

@Dash

Hey! BA are the flavor of the month, thank you very much! Wolves were the flavor of last month!

Hahaha, you may be doing the Robot to some sweet Moby techno tunes, but my wolves will be slam dancing on your ashes!

I am going to the game store right now for a real life game actually, but how about tomorrow? I am curious to try your crons as they look interesting.

That's a light show that I want to see, Dash.

Reecius, grats on your golden ticket! I enjoyed the reports.

Reecius wrote:
Hahaha, you may be doing the Robot to some sweet Moby techno tunes.

HERESY! More like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp7zXjpAE50&feature=related

Or if its your style, this awesome remix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hrL2COkxaA

Reecius wrote:@Darth

The problem with that, or any similar system is that it bones shallow dexes. Deep dexes like MEQ's, IG, etc. can get around it fairly easily.

What about Tau? Only 4 Rail Guns? Only 4 Burst Cannons?

Crons? Only 5 Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers, Immortals or Pariahs (not that anyone takes them!) or 4 Wraiths?

Eldar: Only 4 S.Lasers, S.Cannons or B.Lances? ONly one Farseer? Only one warlock in troops?

Sisters: Only 4 flamers or meltas? That's all they have!

Grey Knights: Only 4 psycannons or incinerators?

and the list goes on and on.

For one, pragmatically, it means people would have to drastically alter their lists. For two, it hurts the weaker armies more than it hurts the stronger armies which is the opposite effect of what it was meant to.

Even in Oz where they run tiered systems in Fantasy, giving weak armies more points than strong armies, what often happens is that it only provides more VP's to the stronger armies to kill!

Comp just does not work. 5th ed 40K is as good as we have had it. Stick to book missions which punish MSU armies which are the best right now, and balances things fairly well.

If someone brings a weaker dex, they simply have to accept that they will have a tougher road to walk, but that it will be so much more glorious if they succeed!

I don't think you have thought it through. All you said was you didn't think there was a comp system where Necrons and DH could compete against SW and IG. This system does not punish the older/weaker codex's because those dex's don't have the spam options the newer codex's have. The current incarnations of SW and IG is to spam Missiles, Lascannons and Meltaguns. This is denied. Dash's Necrons are spared these comp rules. Why would wraiths be effected? They are only str 6 and if you spam them, you aren't taking destroyers anyway. I forgot anout the Tau basic rifle being str 5. There could be an exception for them in that. Yes Tau can bet by just fine with only 4 railguns. Don't they have fusion guns? Don't they have seeker missiles? I think the Tau get off pretty good in this comp system. They don't have to face 15 long fang misssiles, only 4. That's great for them.

GK's don't spam psycannons and incinerators. They spam str 6 nemisis blades and storm bolters and those aren't effected. GK still get 4 meltaguns from stormtroopers and there can't be more than 1 Vendetta facing off against them. No more than 4 chimera's can be across the table from them (multi-lasers are str 6).

Eldar can be just fine with only 4 scatter lasers. Footdar regularly field 2-3 wraithlords and the warwalkers aren't a must have for those lists. Even so, 2 warlwalkers can have 2x scatter lasers and the 3rd one can have shuriken cannons. One Farseer is enough. Most people take an Avatar or a Phoenix Lord as the 2nd HQ. Why would warlocks be effected? They don't cast psychic powers. I should change the rule to say the unit must be able to cast the psychic power with a die roll.

Sisters have 4 flamers, 4 heavy flamers, 4 meltaguns, 4 infernus pistols, they open up armor with their HV tank anyway which they can still have 3. Sisters can have IG allies to open up more heavy weapons if they want it or else they will have to grab other units in their dex. Units that might perform better win an environement with only 4 enemy lascannons, only 5 enemy terminators, only 4 enemy Obliterators, etc....

I'm afraid I don't see how the list goes on and on. In fact the more I think about it thebetter it sounds. Yes players will have to change their army lists around. They will have to remove the 5th-15th missiles launcher from the SW army. They will have to take something else besides their 5th-9th Chimera. Only one Psychic Battle suad will be allowed and only 1 lash Prince. Players will need to diversify their lists and make changes. The top competitve players do that whenever a new book comes out. Do you think people sat around with 15 SW missile launcher marines before the codex came out? No they saw the unit and they bought new models.

This idea isn't to try and get the whole 40k tourney scene to change. No sir. I'm just responding to your comment that no COMP formet could put Necrons and DH on an equal footing as SW and IG and I think it can. It looks good to me.


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I'm going to bring this into a fresh thread to not derail this one.

Hehehe, I don't know about most people, but I put pariahs AND flayed ones in my wraith list

The comp idea by DarthDiggler now has its own thread in Dakka Discussions, so it probably doesn't need to be discussed anymore here.

I feel bad starting this thread down the road of comp system discussion by posting that first in here... let's get back OT talking about the event/games/etc described so well above!

@Zain60

Thanks!