32726
Post by: mordian
Now I have finished an army of confederates which is based on the film Gettysburg and a few other random things which you can see in my gallery. I have had both positive and some negative feedback about the army and I just wanted to know if and why you find the confederate flag offensive.
In my opinion I understand why people find it offensive and I shared the opinion at one point but I have changed due to men like Lee and Pickett. They both dislike slavery and fought for their homes and family against a massive army with better equipment. The story sounds heroic in a way and as I live in the UK I have had like a 3rd party view where there is little bias on each side. To me the flags meaning depends on how it is displayed. If Robert DuVall displayed the flag I would think nothing of it as he is related to Robert E Lee however if I saw a white supremacists nut case with the flag I would feel it is an immoral use and even though it is not aimed at offending me I would feel shamed as the minority are ruining it for the majority who want the flag to honour their family.
I myself am a liberal. I feel there is no point in purposely offending people but I understand the argument of those who are supportive of the flag for it to represent their southern ancestors and through learning of it I found it to be not as bad as some people say. I do have to say I don't fully agree with some of the political reasons of war or with certain generals like NB Forest or the president Jefferson Davis as they are both racist extremists to keep oppression. I only agree to the flag by the fact that many young men fought this war for the defence of their nation. Most of the young soldiers came from poor backgrounds and didn't have slaves and many again were conscripted by the tyrannical president.
I also have to say the north was in no position of a moral argument. I recall General John Chivington who was a man of religion massacred a whole village of native americans (with white and us flags to show they were mutal in the war) with 110 women and children gunned down. Also general grant was supportive of anti-Semitism which is again evil and he owned slave till the end of the war when he was Forced to free them.
25475
Post by: Devastator
they are your models
you shouldn"t really care what some dude on the internet thinks about them
21364
Post by: FM Ninja 048
I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,
If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.
9974
Post by: sabote
For perspective it is not that different than trying to argue to certain groups that the swastika in not just a symbol of the Nazi government and the bad things that happened during the war but had further meaning prior to its use in WW2.
Being that you are in the UK. Do what you want and enjoy your army. But understand that such a paint scheme would more than likely cause people to talk in the US.
The Flag, right or wrong is linked to organizations that show not tolerance for certain people and in the US very often carries a second meaning.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Do whatever you want, but the confederate flag is considered pretty trashy nowadays, used mostly by rednecks, white trash, and hillbillies... and even they oftentimes find it trashy. FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,
Alabama offends me.
4820
Post by: Ailaros
Melissia wrote:Alabama offends me.
Yes, but otherwise I don't see much of a reason.
Other than it's a little tacky to have the south rising again in the 41st millenium. Do you really think ideas of the confederacy would have survived that long?
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Why is this in 40K Gen discussion?
and there isn't anything to get offended about by the Stars and Bars. the Civil War was over a states rights issue. something that is still talked about today.
besides, the south lost. displaying it is a reminder of that defeat.
34644
Post by: Mr Nobody
A tad offensive, but it's a table top game so I think people will understand.
17210
Post by: vodo40k
Yea I dont think the confederacy would have lasted till M41, STARCRAFT on the other hand......
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.
"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"
221
Post by: Frazzled
FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,
If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.
This works. There's nothing wrong with a Confederate/Union based army with those colors, just shy away from the actual battleflag.
5258
Post by: Boyofdestiny205
Mr Nobody wrote:A tad offensive, but it's a table top game so I think people will understand.
Care to explain why its a tad offensive?
I just cant understand how anyone could be offended about a paintjob on minatures.
34644
Post by: Mr Nobody
Believe me, their will be that one person who will think it's a personal statement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not that one person.
207
Post by: Balance
If you're doing a Civil War army, it's at least somewhat historically accurate.*
* I say somewhat as I don't know what the historical heraldry for ACW forces was... Was it mostly state banners, the rebel flag, both, etc? I'm guessing it varied by unit size, too.
Still, it's your life, and I can't and shouldn't try to make you do things my way.
5258
Post by: Boyofdestiny205
@MrNobody: I wasnt saying it was you. If you thought i was directing towards you.
I guess in this cookie cutter society we live in everyone gets offended by everything.
Im offended someone was offended by your confederate army.
Just sounds stupid doesnt it........
9594
Post by: RiTides
Frazzled wrote:FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,
If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.
This works. There's nothing wrong with a Confederate/Union based army with those colors, just shy away from the actual battleflag.
I think this is a great idea 
207
Post by: Balance
I thought (via wikipedia) that the Alabama state flag was white with a red X? Sure, it shares a broad design motif with the traditional confederate flag, but not much else...
26792
Post by: Useskaforevil
I saw another thread where people went a little nuts on you, but There is nothing inherently racist about the confederate flag. But, in america some racists do use that flag for stupid reasons (they're racists so don't expect their intelligence to be overwhelming) on everything, and don't have any idea what the civil war was really about. As long as you don't have anything racist in your army (black servitors or something equally stupid) you're fine. Just be prepared to have to explain to someone why they're mistaken when they do have a problem with you, or be prepared for them to just think you're a racist. I will say the land speeder makes your army look a little more like a modern racist who throws the flag on everything, and it comes off as tacky. (even though it is kinda cool/funny as I know you're most likely not) I'm from Ohio and we were union, but a lot of the rednecks here are in love with the flag for good and bad reasons. I'm sure peoples opinions on the matter are different in the UK but I thought I'd let you know how Some of us here feel.
35368
Post by: CurrentlyUnknown
I guess the question would be how offended would you be if I painted an "insurgency" force with tallarns, waving about an Iraqi flag? After all, there were laudable members of Iraqi military, even under Saddam.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
I consider the confederate flag dangerous because of simple minded people who use it as a catalyst to justify racism.
Honestly I dont consider it offensive, but I do agree with Melissa (????) that it basically just represents the hillbillies, hicks and the more trashy elements right now
For the OP tho, I think its a bit inane for a british person to paint their army with an american symbol with such emotional and historical power.. and not really even understand why it could be offensive
The nazi analogy applies pretty good.. Even if the south weren't nazis.. Its still a former symbol of oppression (the stars and stripes is more stylish also)
21196
Post by: agnosto
CurrentlyUnknown wrote:I guess the question would be how offended would you be if I painted an "insurgency" force with tallarns, waving about an Iraqi flag? After all, there were laudable members of Iraqi military, even under Saddam.
Well considering you can buy the actually figs on the internet....I don't see a problem with it.
http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=62
As for the symbolism; I guess whether or not the concept of the confederate flag could be offensive to those who have no knowledge of history and the causes of the civil war and just base their opinion on the nuts that are waving it around in this century. The OP is correct that many people in the confederacy found the idea of slavery repugnant but still fought on the side of the south during the war. The reason for this was that the war, itself, was fought over state's rights. It was the ultimate expression of a political struggle between the Democratic southern states and the whig/republican controlled northern states.
Shock of shocks there were actual states that allowed slavery that were a part of the Union...why? you might ask...because the issue was less about slavery and more about big brother telling the member states what to do. All of this is actually quite timely considering all the sabre rattling that the right-wing tea partiers are doing these days and the rallies in Texas with talk of seccession...(not that it will ever happen).
221
Post by: Frazzled
CurrentlyUnknown wrote:I guess the question would be how offended would you be if I painted an "insurgency" force with tallarns, waving about an Iraqi flag? After all, there were laudable members of Iraqi military, even under Saddam.
Enough to think you're an idiot...
9431
Post by: niceguyteddy
You guys are right. Any country where slavery was ever legal should change their flag. Oh and don't use them or any similar ones in or on your models. We should really destroy any photos of said offensive symbols and flags so extremists don't use them as something to rally around. All references to such things should be banned and within a few generations all will be forgotten. Or repeated, one or the other.
9594
Post by: RiTides
These flags are full of awesomeness without the baggage, although from a slightly earlier era (Revolutionary period). I thought the Confederacy used similar ones but couldn't find it atm.
"Don't tread on me". Best flag slogan ever
Reference links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpeper_Minutemen
207
Post by: Balance
I checked out Mordian's posts and it looks like he does have a "Confederate Army' using IG rules/models.
<edit>
You know, I've got a bunch more stuff worth doing than arguing on the internet. Have fun, though.
</edit>
Of course, this is all my opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, wouldn't the Confederate force be pretty diametrically opposed to the Imperium? Sure, they're not chaos-worshippers, but I don't see a "state's rights" platform getting any attention other than the Inquisition in 40k...
22812
Post by: ghastli
I wouldn't feel bad about offending anyone with a confederate flag, I met this one douchebag who brought his Swatstika waving Nazi IG army to the comic store on the one day that a couple of actual Jewish people came for the first time. Needless to say, I haven't seen either of them since.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Edit: nevermind, Balance answered my question..
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?
221
Post by: Frazzled
CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?
I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.
21196
Post by: agnosto
CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?
I guess it all depends if you live in NYC or not and if you're a good enough modeler/painter to pull it off.
I can just see that IG rambo character (name?) as a suicide bomber...pretty much because he usually runs out, blows up something big and then dies.
13518
Post by: Scott-S6
Grey Templar wrote:and there isn't anything to get offended about by the Stars and Bars. the Civil War was over a states rights issue. something that is still talked about today.
This.
I find it interesting that the civil war has been retconned to be all about slavery.
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
Frazzled wrote:CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?
I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.
After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...
Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...
29408
Post by: Melissia
It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.
Regardless, it's still a rather trashy symbol here in the South.
221
Post by: Frazzled
CT GAMER wrote:Frazzled wrote:CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?
I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.
After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...
Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...
I would if you did that (the burning towers thing - I wouldn't care about the other stuff). Thats tacky, boorish, and daft. A tallarn army without the flags or burning towers, I couldn't care less, but otherwise you're intentionally attempting to get arise out of people and I'd be your huckleberry for just that purpose. In fact, we'd have to go get a laser pointer so we could point and laugh from across the room...
21196
Post by: agnosto
CT GAMER wrote:
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.
After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...
Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...
Then by your reasoning the US flag (and any other country for that matter) should never be used because someone, somewhere might have disliked what was done while someone, somewhere, somewhen carried that flag.
Examples: No Japanese flags because of Pearl Harbor. No American flags because of Chogun Ri. No British flags because of the Boston Massacre. on and on and on.
Yes, flags are a symbol but they are a symbol of so much more than any negativity that you care to attribute to them.
It is only through the struggle of humanity to understand our common toils that we, as a species, can grow beyond the need for conflict. Stubborn ignorance and the inability to understand what has come before only guarantees that we will continue to repeat the mistakes of our forefathers. "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. (Edmund Burke)"
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
Frazzled wrote:CT GAMER wrote:Frazzled wrote:CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?
I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.
After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...
Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...
I would if you did that (the burning towers thing - I wouldn't care about the other stuff). Thats tacky, boorish, and daft.
Again, yes I agree, just as tacky boorish and daft as putting a confederate flag on space men from the 41st Millennium...
I'm glad we agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote:CT GAMER wrote:
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.
After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...
Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...
Then by your reasoning the US flag (and any other country for that matter) should never be used because someone, somewhere might have disliked what was done while someone, somewhere, somewhen carried that flag.
Examples: No Japanese flags because of Pearl Harbor. No American flags because of Chogun Ri. No British flags because of the Boston Massacre. on and on and on.
Yes, flags are a symbol but they are a symbol of so much more than any negativity that you care to attribute to them.
It is only through the struggle of humanity to understand our common toils that we, as a species, can grow beyond the need for conflict. Stubborn ignorance and the inability to understand what has come before only guarantees that we will continue to repeat the mistakes of our forefathers. "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. (Edmund Burke)"
Yes I wouldn't put real world flags on space men from the 41st Millenium, especially ones with a documented historical association with slavery, hate crimes, war crimes or similar, and especially if said flag is still in use today as a symbol by hate groups and racists...
If you are making a representation of a historical force (for a museum/display/school project/etc. or for a historical game like FOW, etc.), then it has a context and a purpose, otherwise it comes off as a forced attempt at attention or a passive aggressive attempt to offend...
221
Post by: Frazzled
agnosto wrote:
Examples: No Japanese flags because of Pearl Harbor. No American flags because of Chogun Ri. No British flags because of the Boston Massacre. on and on and on.
Actually, you've stumbled on the CORRECT answer. No real world flags or symbols for a fantasy game. Anything else and your just making a (bad) point.
(exception: imperial German cross -whatever the correct term for the WWI symbol was- just because its cool  ) Automatically Appended Next Post: CT GAMER wrote:
Yes I wouldn't put real world flags on space men from the 41st Millenium, especially ones with a documented historical association with slavery, hate crimes, war crimes or similar, and especially if said flag is still in use today as a symbol by hate groups and racists...
If you are making a representation of a historical force (for a museum/display/school project/etc. or for a historical game like FOW, etc.), then it has a context and a purpose, otherwise it comes off as a forced attempt at attention or a passive aggressive attempt to offend...
CT Gamer has the way of it.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Frazzled wrote:
Actually, you've stumbled on the CORRECT answer. No real world flags or symbols for a fantasy game. Anything else and your just making a (bad) point.
(exception: imperial German cross -whatever the correct term for the WWI symbol was- just because its cool )
You're not allowed any exceptions regardless of coolness! 
The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to be upset about symbols because a symbold can't kill you or hurt you or make you cry. You can make yourself upset over something purely related to the symbol but that's just you attaching an emotional response to an object, kind of like religion.
The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.
Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.
221
Post by: Frazzled
agnosto wrote:Frazzled wrote:
Actually, you've stumbled on the CORRECT answer. No real world flags or symbols for a fantasy game. Anything else and your just making a (bad) point.
(exception: imperial German cross -whatever the correct term for the WWI symbol was- just because its cool )
You're not allowed any exceptions regardless of coolness!
The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to be upset about symbols because a symbold can't kill you or hurt you or make you cry. You can make yourself upset over something purely related to the symbol but that's just you attaching an emotional response to an object, kind of like religion.
The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.
Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.
Test that theory. Get yourself a confederate flag. Have a friend drop you off in Compton. But first sign this paper saying I can have all your miniatures.
21196
Post by: agnosto
I suppose I'll have to disagree. I'll never create such a force for several reasons (primarily because I'm not a good painter or modeler) but I wouldn't become upset if someone else had one.
In my mind, it's similar to saying the Ultra Marines are Crips and the Blood Angels are Bloods and we shouldn't paint them those colors because of all the terrible things those gangs have done. Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled wrote:
Test that theory. Get yourself a confederate flag. Have a friend drop you off in Compton. But first sign this paper saying I can have all your miniatures.
We're talking about little army men, not actually becoming one of those malcontents that espouses the ideology behind the symbolism (which would be the only reason that I can think of for actually carrying a flag around with you). On that note, why don't you take an American flag and walk around baghdad.
I think some people read too much into what their little plastic men represent.
I suppose you're going to tell me that Muslims should have no problem with Black Templars and the symbolism that is carried on their little plastic bodies.
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
agnosto wrote:
.
The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.
Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.
I know people like to fixate on the civl war when this is discussed, but I think the problem is that present day some people use and revere that flag as a symbol to justify hate crimes, prejudice and discrimination.
So while I don't care about the civil war, I do care that racists are curb stomping people while flying it off the back of their pickups or wearing a t-shirt with it on it.
The flag as a symbol has been co-opted by present day racists in the sme way that Hitler co-opted a symbol and twisted it to have a new meaning.
We all studied the civil war in history class, that isn't the issue.
The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...
221
Post by: Frazzled
CT GAMER wrote:agnosto wrote:
.
The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.
Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.
I know people like to fixate on the civl war when this is discussed, but I think the problem is that present day some people use and revere that flag as a symbol to justify hate crimes, prejudice and discrimination.
So while I don't care about the civil war, I do care that racists are curb stomping people while flying it off the back of their pickups or wearing a t-shirt with it on it.
The flag as a symbol has been co-opted by present day racists in the sme way that Hitler co-opted a symbol and twisted it to have a new meaning.
We all studied the civil war in history class, that isn't the issue.
The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...
Exactly.
The easy solution is the solution fo doing nothing. Don't try to tick people off. Just paint your minis and play the damn game.
16427
Post by: TobyDog
FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,
If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.
Actually it's not, are similar and there is no Blue any more, but that is like saying the UK's flag is similar due to it being Red white and blue.
Alabama's current flag:
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/alabama/flag.htm
and Florida's is in the same vein:
http://www.50states.com/flag/flflag.htm
Mississippi Still has the "Stars and Bars" on it
http://www.50states.com/flag/msflag.htm
21196
Post by: agnosto
CT GAMER wrote:
The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...
The same could be said for the American flag; it's all perspective, audience and venue. I'm not telling anyone to run outside with the confederate flag and shout racist slogans at the top of their lungs.
For the most part, wargammers are fairly educated (at least the group that I've been around have been) and the beauty of a modern, liberal education is that you learn to think for yourself and the sure sign of a mature person is the ability to look beyond the surface of a situation.
My thinking is this and of course you are more than welcome to disagree with my opinion. If someone walked into the FLGS that I frequent and had a well painted, awesomely converted IG army that was modeled and painted (hats and all) like civil war era troops, or even used historical civil-war era models as counts-as, I would have no problem with it. I might even say to this person, "Hey, I've got my Ultramarines, how about I be the Union?". Suddenly, it's no longer uncouth but a futuristic version of a historical wargame. Ever watch Serenity?
On the other hand, if I were to see someone with such an army and they sometimes made racist remarks, I would be less tolerant.
Not to belabor the point but as I mentioned previously, no one seems to have a problem with the usage of the symbolism of the crusades in this game setting. Arguably, the crusades resulted in millions of deaths and that radicals are using to this day as an excuse for their atrocities.
Ghengis Khan killed 40million people but no one seems to have a problem with a themed army related to him...or stalinist russia...or as Frazzled mentioned, WWI (15million).
I don't see anyone picketing GW over the usage of "slaves" in the Skaven armies..isn't slavery terrible? Shouldn't we get all worked up over the concept of someone saying, "It's ok that your army wiped out that 60-man block, they were just slaves."?
It's all about context, take it out of context and it's abhorrant; in context you're a history buff.
221
Post by: Frazzled
agnosto wrote:CT GAMER wrote:
The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...
The same could be said for the American flag; it's all perspective, audience and venue. I'm not telling anyone to run outside with the confederate flag and shout racist slogans at the top of their lungs.
****Exactly. So why go out of your way to cause a scene. Leave the flags at home.
For the most part, wargammers are fairly educated (at least the group that I've been around have been) and the beauty of a modern, liberal education is that you learn to think for yourself and the sure sign of a mature person is the ability to look beyond the surface of a situation.
***They are? The majority of gamers I've seen haven't graduated high school yet. Many are socially inept.
My thinking is this and of course you are more than welcome to disagree with my opinion. If someone walked into the FLGS that I frequent and had a well painted, awesomely converted IG army that was modeled and painted (hats and all) like civil war era troops, or even used historical civil-war era models as counts-as, I would have no problem with it.
***Thats fine until you show up with little stars and bars. Then its gauche.
I might even say to this person, "Hey, I've got my Ultramarines, how about I be the Union?". Suddenly, it's no longer uncouth but a futuristic version of a historical wargame. Ever watch Serenity?
***They didn't wear blue and grey in Serenity.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Frazzled wrote:
****Exactly. So why go out of your way to cause a scene. Leave the flags at home.
***They are? The majority of gamers I've seen haven't graduated high school yet. Many are socially inept.
***Thats fine until you show up with little stars and bars. Then its gauche.
***They didn't wear blue and grey in Serenity.
Dude, you're a mod, learn how to quote. Lazy... 
I'll leave mine at home if you do the same. Considering I don't own any, that's an easy one.
You're hanging out in the wrong places then.
Personal opinion, I don't share yours and you don't share mine; we can agree to disagree.
No but the symbolism was the same "brown coats" and the "alliance" (union), little colonies being told what to do and wanting to do things their own way until big bad brother alliance come knocking with greater numbers.
Anywho, I think we've pretty much run this one into the ground and it's time for me to go hit the gym. Have a good evening all.
221
Post by: Frazzled
agnosto wrote:Anywho, I think we've pretty much run this one into the ground and it's time for me to go hit the gym. Have a good evening all.
Party on gym rat. 
752
Post by: Polonius
the problem I have with using the battle flag in situations like this isn't that I'm offended (my ancestors came here after the Civil War), but that it's historically lazy.
Lee and Picket didn't fight and die for the confederacy. They fought for Virginia. Put the historically appropriate Virginia flag on your army, and you'll be rocking and rolling.
Instead you're inheriting a ton of baggage of what that flag has come to symbolize in the 150 years since the end of the war.
30265
Post by: SoloFalcon1138
No one should have a problem with it. You are personalizing your army for personal/thematic reasons. Are you making a political statement about slavery (a minor issue)? Or are you simply using a cool scheme?
752
Post by: Polonius
By minor issue, do you mean now, or during the Civil War?
30265
Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Not to let this thread digress too much, slavery was to the Civil War much like not wearing a hat and coat in the rain causes one to catch flu, it's not the sole cause, but it doesn't help.
752
Post by: Polonius
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not to let this thread digress too much, slavery was to the Civil War much like not wearing a hat and coat in the rain causes one to catch flu, it's not the sole cause, but it doesn't help.
The Vice President of the Confederacy disagrees with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_speech
If you read his explanation of his comments, he states:
"( Slavery was without doubt the occasion of secession; out of it rose the breach of compact, for instance, on the part of several Northern States in refusing to comply with Constitutional obligations as to rendition of fugitives from service, a course betraying total disregard for all constitutional barriers and guarantees.) "
(Emphasis mine).
8049
Post by: ArbitorIan
The absolute thing to remember is that people choose to be offended. Being offended by something is a choice you take, not a reaction you have no part in. And, since people can choose to dislike your army for any number of reasons, you really shouldn't worry about the people who say it 'offends them'.
29034
Post by: Maledictus
Before this goes any further let me ask the OP something. Why have you posted this topic on three separate occasions on different forums on dakka?
At first i thought it was innocent enough, maybe you were apprehensive and thought that someone would get offended by your army's rather "unique" historical inspiration. That said, the responses that you got here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312104.page in your first thread should have told you that no one gave a flying feth how you painted your models, some people, myself included actually thought the idea was pretty cool. that would have been fine except that you posted again here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/325369.page
and now a third time with this thread....
So are you trying to troll us or what? if so its a pretty lame attempt, since, as you've seen most of us aren't the least bit offended by it.
If you're not trolling, then why ask the same questions three times and then not respond when you get answers?
5531
Post by: Leigen_Zero
They way I see it, all will be forgiven provided:
a) You explain if asked that the concept is for theme only, and that the attitudes and opinions of your toy soldiers are not those of the person who fights with them, and you are not supportive of the political ideology associated with the emblems and flags displayed (in the same way that a praetorian guard player probably doesn't want to go to Africa and kill a bunch of natives).
b) All your chimeras have been converted into the general lee
25139
Post by: micahaphone
I am of the Northern states, and from my perspective it is seen as a symbol of slavery. However, it should be duly noted that slavery was not the only cause of the civil war, nor were all on the side of the confederacy for slavery. Lee was an upstanding gentleman who only wished to fight honorably for his home state.
P.S. Davy Crockett died at the Alamo. The people at the Alamo were illegal immigrants who were using slaves in a slavery free country. Davy Crockett died defending slavery.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.P.S. A main reason that it is seen as offensive is that some supremacist groups in the USA have, at some time or another, used it as the flag of their cause.
19588
Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
Melissia wrote:It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.
Regardless, it's still a rather trashy symbol here in the South.
First of all the Civil War was not about slavery, but about the rights of the Southern States, many of the southern states were oppossed slavery and wanted to end it. What we people were taught about "The Civil War" is through TV, and that the wrong way in telling or teaching history, but you can have your facts or primary sources incorrect. Most people would relate the south by movies like "Gone with the Wind" which was the antebellum south was only represented the Rich planation owners, 1 percent, wrong view about true south. Now if you want me to offend you i can, Slavery was nothing more than a form of Cheap Labor, Rich eiltest get richer and poor stay poor. A real simple concept that exist to this day.....China anyone. The Conferedate flag is not a trashy symbol, it a symbol of the southern history.
735
Post by: JOHIRA
I think Frazzled said it best: it's gauche. It wouldn't offend me, but I'd probably roll my eyes and think the owner was either desperate for attention or trying to make a crass political statement through their toy soldiers.
I think it's fine to reference history in 40k. To evoke it. But to straight out copy it just comes across as silly to me.
752
Post by: Polonius
Which states were against slavery? If they were, why didn't they end it?
Its was a complex issue, but slaves were a huge part of the economy of the south. Saying that the interest in keeping property wasn't a motivating factor is tremendously naive.
"States rights" is a saying. People don't go to war over sayings. They go to war over money. Either to take somebody else's, or to prevent theirs from being taken.
The civil war was about the balance of power in the country shifting from the agrarian south to the rapidly industrializing north. As political power shifted (look how many presidents were from the south pre-civil war), there was fear that economic power would shift even more rapidly.
There was rising international and domestic opposition to chattel slavery, which meant that if political power shifted too much away from the south, a lot of people would be left with a pretty empty bag.
So, no. The war was not fought over slavery. But slavery was a huge reason for the war. In a war essentially about economic models (capitalism vs. estate system), the key to the southern model is unfree labor of one form or another.
30073
Post by: revackey
Theres nothing wrong with the rebel flag in my opinion. I mean, this is the 21st century, what happened is past. The Confederacy was not like the Nazi's massacring innocents. They stuck up for what they thought was right at the time. If someone tells you how, "Stupid" or "Trashy" that is ignore them. Ultimately it is your army do what you want.
Also, Mellisa, I have to say you seem quite stuck up. I live in the suburbs of CT, and there are a few local who have the rebel flag somewhere or another. And they are not at all rednecks or white trash.
Haters gonna hate.
29034
Post by: Maledictus
Ok did no one read my post? im going all caps now so you can hear me...
THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN POSTED THREE TIMES BY THE SAME GUY, HE ABANDONS THE THREAD AFTER HE CREATES IT EACH TIME.
HE'S TROLLING YOU.
EDIT: LOOK AT HIS POSTING HISTORY.
EDIT #2: ALSO IT MIGHT HELP TO MOVE THIS TO THE OFF TOPIC BOARD.
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
ArbitorIan wrote:you really shouldn't worry about the people who say it 'offends them'.
And yet he keeps posting essentially the same thread over and over again asking if people are offended.
It isn't like we busted his door down and started berating him about this. He initiated this conversation.
Morale of the story: If you don't want people's opinions then don't solicit them for one...
6292
Post by: Valhallan42nd
niceguyteddy wrote:You guys are right. Any country where slavery was ever legal should change their flag. Oh and don't use them or any similar ones in or on your models. We should really destroy any photos of said offensive symbols and flags so extremists don't use them as something to rally around. All references to such things should be banned and within a few generations all will be forgotten. Or repeated, one or the other.
The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:
A Confederate force in an ACW game with a confederate flag=okay.
A Confederate Imperial Guard Army with Daisy Duke and the General Lee=Pushing it.
Sans Daisy Duke=Not cool, bro.
786
Post by: Sazzlefrats
Why are you putting it on GW models... there's no historical reason to do it? So that makes it odd and out of place. I don't think anyone will mind all the same, gotta remember this was on the General Lee even in that recent reincarnation of the Dukes of Hazard.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
Odd and out of place? A few years back an army went to a Grand Tourney that was all done up like the last stand at the Alamo. Got a lot of accolades, a spread in White Dwarf. Had models running around in sombreros and stuff. And HOW does that have more "historical reason" than any other themed army? Why does it have to have historical reason or relevance? Maybe taking the grimdark a bit too seriously, eh? Mind you, if that;'s how you want to build your stuff that's well cool and fine, go for it an more power to you. But expecting everyone else to adhere to that mindset is a bit close-minded.
29408
Post by: Melissia
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:First of all the Civil War was not about slavery
Well here's someone that didn't actually read the post he quoted. Good job not responding to my post and instead responding to a strawman.
Melissia wrote:It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.
Because you know, wars can never be about more than one thing. I mean goddamn we humans are such simple creatures with simple, easy to understand, non-conflicting ideals!
9974
Post by: sabote
End of the day you are in the UK. So why does it really matter? Just do what you want, its not like you are going to find a whole lot of people to argue about it in the UK.
or
You just like to see people discussing this topic over and over again.
20983
Post by: Ratius
THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN POSTED THREE TIMES BY THE SAME GUY, HE ABANDONS THE THREAD AFTER HE CREATES IT EACH TIME.
HE'S TROLLING YOU.
EDIT: LOOK AT HIS POSTING HISTORY.
EDIT #2: ALSO IT MIGHT HELP TO MOVE THIS TO THE OFF TOPIC BOARD.
Bizarre.
221
Post by: Frazzled
ArbitorIan wrote:The absolute thing to remember is that people choose to be offended. Being offended by something is a choice you take, not a reaction you have no part in. And, since people can choose to dislike your army for any number of reasons, you really shouldn't worry about the people who say it 'offends them'.
Unless they stand there and point and laugh at you of course, or you get thrown out of the store/tournament.
1478
Post by: warboss
Melissia wrote:Because you know, wars can never be about more than one thing. I mean goddamn we humans are such simple creatures with simple, easy to understand, non-conflicting ideals!
that's why i play 2 imperial armies in 40k... because the wars are only about one thing.  heretic = burn. xenos = purge. simple enough. blessed is the mind too simple for doubt.
9129
Post by: UsdiThunder
The history you learn in school has been diluted into what they can teach you in a certain amount of time. It is never fully correct. If you study the the true causes you'll find out it was a bunch of policies that included the economic downturn for the South if they lost the slaves.
The Confederate Battle Flag has a place in history. If you are playing a miniatures game set in the civil war era there should be no problem with it's use.
But we are talking the 41st century. There should not be any reference to any pre 31st century history since the earth had gone though an apocalypse which allowed the Emporah of Mankind to come to power. In the end the fluff don't support it.
207
Post by: Balance
As has been pointed out, it appears we've been trolled. Might be best for the mods to close the thread...
30265
Post by: SoloFalcon1138
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Melissia wrote:It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.
Regardless, it's still a rather trashy symbol here in the South.
First of all the Civil War was not about slavery, but about the rights of the Southern States, many of the southern states were oppossed slavery and wanted to end it. What we people were taught about "The Civil War" is through TV, and that the wrong way in telling or teaching history, but you can have your facts or primary sources incorrect. Most people would relate the south by movies like "Gone with the Wind" which was the antebellum south was only represented the Rich planation owners, 1 percent, wrong view about true south. Now if you want me to offend you i can, Slavery was nothing more than a form of Cheap Labor, Rich eiltest get richer and poor stay poor. A real simple concept that exist to this day.....China anyone. The Conferedate flag is not a trashy symbol, it a symbol of the southern history.
Couldn't have said it better!
221
Post by: Frazzled
Modquisition on. If you want to debate the US Civil War, do it somewhere else besides Dakka Discussions. Its not appropriate. Thank you.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
I really don't see the Confederate Flag as a big deal.
The Civil War was fought for a few other reasons than slavery, regardless of what PC Historical Revisionism they teach at schools. Slavery was part of it, and slavery was bad, but it wasn't the only reason that the war happened. That's all I'm going to say about it, Mods. 
12893
Post by: evilsponge
just as long as you aren't making nazi marines then I don't mind, especially since the entire army is civil war themed
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Grey Templar wrote:i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.
"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"
German tanks did not have svastikas painted on them. They used the balkenkreuzas their national emblem. Planes did, however, often painted on both sides of the tail fin.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Agamemnon2 wrote:Grey Templar wrote:i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.
"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"
German tanks did not have svastikas painted on them. They used the balkenkreuzas their national emblem. Planes did, however, often painted on both sides of the tail fin.
well, it was flags that were sculpted on to the tanks that had the swastika(i may not be spelling it right ) that caused the issue.
still it shows a little overreaction.
6902
Post by: skrulnik
Grey Templar wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:Grey Templar wrote:i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.
"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"
German tanks did not have svastikas painted on them. They used the balkenkreuzas their national emblem. Planes did, however, often painted on both sides of the tail fin.
well, it was flags that were sculpted on to the tanks that had the swastika(i may not be spelling it right ) that caused the issue.
still it shows a little overreaction.
I have seen most of the FOW models, and the captured British trucks had the flags across the hood.
I do not remember seeing any tanks that were like that.
But I know the German Army used many captured tanks, mostly Czech tanks IIRC.
It would make sense to identify captured vehicles with a flag on them, since the profile would remain unchanged.
19370
Post by: daedalus
Oh god this thread again.
20th Century Man says: "You know, maybe it's not a bad thing that some people are offended. I wasn't going out of my way to offend, but simply perusing a theme that I felt was interesting and/or characterful, especially amidst multiple other stereotypical armies that I'm sure would offend someone somewhere. The world is varied and it is impossible to not offend someone somewhere, if by no other reason than my mere existence."
21st Century Man says: "ZOMG SO OFFENDED!!!11one. THIS IS EBIL AND YOU ARE INSENSITIVE TOWARD MY SENSITIVE SENSITIVITY! TAKE ZE OFFENDER AWAY TO TOLERANCE CAMP!"
10086
Post by: Neconilis
Polonius wrote:Which states were against slavery? If they were, why didn't they end it?
I'd like to second that request.
221
Post by: Frazzled
daedalus wrote:Oh god this thread again.
20th Century Man says: "You know, maybe it's not a bad thing that some people are offended. I wasn't going out of my way to offend, but simply perusing a theme that I felt was interesting and/or characterful, especially amidst multiple other stereotypical armies that I'm sure would offend someone somewhere. The world is varied and it is impossible to not offend someone somewhere, if by no other reason than my mere existence."
21st Century Man says: "ZOMG SO OFFENDED!!!11one. THIS IS EBIL AND YOU ARE INSENSITIVE TOWARD MY SENSITIVE SENSITIVITY! TAKE ZE OFFENDER AWAY TO TOLERANCE CAMP!"
Frazzled says: If you have to model your wittle toy soldiers after nazis, confederates, and rednecks and stuff to get your jollies you have lots of issues way beyond just toy soldiers...
207
Post by: Balance
daedalus wrote:Oh god this thread again.
20th Century Man says: "You know, maybe it's not a bad thing that some people are offended. I wasn't going out of my way to offend, but simply perusing a theme that I felt was interesting and/or characterful, especially amidst multiple other stereotypical armies that I'm sure would offend someone somewhere. The world is varied and it is impossible to not offend someone somewhere, if by no other reason than my mere existence."
21st Century Man says: "ZOMG SO OFFENDED!!!11one. THIS IS EBIL AND YOU ARE INSENSITIVE TOWARD MY SENSITIVE SENSITIVITY! TAKE ZE OFFENDER AWAY TO TOLERANCE CAMP!"
For a big chunk of the 20th century, doing stuff like this would have been completely against societal taboos. We've progressed in that it can be done, even if it's considered bad taste, and we can discuss it.
33693
Post by: Jeep
I don't understand what the big deal is, I was actually thinking this would be a fun theme myself some time. I've lived in the Northern US most of my life, and now have spent 3 years in northern Virginia, visiting the south pretty regularly. The flag is a pretty common sight, though most of the time it IS used by racist rednecks.
Anyway, in the WH40K universe, slavery would hardly be the worst thing an army could represent. Presumably, people don't have problems with other armies who destroy whole planets (and that's just the "good" guys!) I'm more familiar with fantasy, where DE economy relies on slavery, or Beastmen who rape their way through villages, etc... You see what I'm getting at? Though pretty bad in our setting, in the WH setting, the Confederates would be one of the more "honorable" nations.
29408
Post by: Melissia
Frazzled wrote:Frazzled says: If you have to model your wittle toy soldiers after nazis, confederates, and rednecks and stuff to get your jollies you have lots of issues way beyond just toy soldiers...
Agreed.
Besides, the Imperium is an equal opportunity oppressor.
19370
Post by: daedalus
Balance wrote:
For a big chunk of the 20th century, doing stuff like this would have been completely against societal taboos. We've progressed in that it can be done, even if it's considered bad taste, and we can discuss it.
I don't know, political correctness and the everpresent fear of causing offense feels to me as though it's become much more prevalent in the last 10-15 years or so.
29034
Post by: Maledictus
Ok I realize this is a polarizing topic for everyone, but really, has no one noticed that the OP hasn't posted anything since starting the thread? or that hes cloned this thread three separate times?
I love history to, its fascinating. And I also have strong opinions regarding the civil war and its causes, But I'm not posting them. why? because this is the epitome of an off topic thread. and you guys are just taking the OPs bait by posting in it Please just let the thread die.
EDIT: If someone wants they can create a thread on the OT board called "Civil War Opinions" link to it and continue the Discussion there.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
Its as if millions of trolled cried out, and then were suddenly silenced...
735
Post by: JOHIRA
Maledictus wrote:Ok I realize this is a polarizing topic for everyone, but really, has no one noticed that the OP hasn't posted anything since starting the thread? or that hes cloned this thread three separate times?
I think we all noticed. Personally, I don't care if he's cackling with glee at what a clever little troll he is. If we get an enjoyable conversation out of this, then it doesn't matter. And I'm thoroughly happy with how the modquisition is trying to keep people cool so we can get an enjoyable conversation out of this.
26457
Post by: fullybakedbear
most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
28851
Post by: doomworcs
I think we all agree that it comes down to context. After all a pickup truck painted with the nazi symbol would be pretty dumb. However a completly restored WW2 ADGZ with those symbols on would be perfectly acceptable.
Symbols with lots of meaning good or bad shouldn't be hidden away in fear of offending someone but they should be used in the proper situation.
But the best part about someone painting Mussolini Marines is you know to avoid them.
29585
Post by: AvatarForm
Everything past the 1st page is tl;dr, however a valid point whichmost seem to be ignorant of is:
Nazi swastika is not the original form, it is actually a reverse/mirror image of a symbol for peace from either Hindu or Seikh religions.
Hitler was quite an ignorant bugger...
Here in AUS, the Confederate flag is used by one of the more violent bikie gangs.
752
Post by: Polonius
fullybakedbear wrote:most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
Here's a quick hint: don't accuse others of not understanding history, and then make a number of factual errors.
The confederacy had several national flags, in fact the term Stars and Bars refers to one of them, not to the popular conferderate battle flag. The modern rectangular version was used by some units, but the Army of Northern Virginia preferred the square battle flag that was also the ensign in several later confederate national flags.
ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag
Interesting bit of irony: the original design for what became the battle flag actually had a latin cross, but several Jewish southerners objected to religious imagry in the national emblems, and the designer switched to a saltire, or St. Andrew's cross. So in some ways, the CSA was more religiously tolerant than the north (which wouldn't even allow Jewish chaplains).
3720
Post by: brettz123
FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,
If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.
No it isn't. Stop being ignorant. A quick google search would show you that isn't true! Automatically Appended Next Post: mordian wrote:Now I have finished an army of confederates which is based on the film Gettysburg and a few other random things which you can see in my gallery. I have had both positive and some negative feedback about the army and I just wanted to know if and why you find the confederate flag offensive.
I think you would be better off having used one of the confederate battle flags and not the actual confederate flag which really has no place in 40k. I can see why people would be offended by it in this case. Personally I don't find it offensive but I am a white male so I understand how other people would see it from a different perspective. If you really want to pay homage to the confederate soldier you should build a historical American Civil War Army. Automatically Appended Next Post: Scott-S6 wrote:Grey Templar wrote:and there isn't anything to get offended about by the Stars and Bars. the Civil War was over a states rights issue. something that is still talked about today.
This.
I find it interesting that the civil war has been retconned to be all about slavery.
Not retconned my friend. It was about slavery........ the south was worried that the north was going to take away their "right" to own other human beings. So yes slavery was the underlying issue that led to the Civil War. Savvy politicians wrapped it up in states rights to get the vast majority of poor whites in the south to sign up for the cause. Automatically Appended Next Post: agnosto wrote:I suppose I'll have to disagree. I'll never create such a force for several reasons (primarily because I'm not a good painter or modeler) but I wouldn't become upset if someone else had one.
In my mind, it's similar to saying the Ultra Marines are Crips and the Blood Angels are Bloods and we shouldn't paint them those colors because of all the terrible things those gangs have done.
We're talking about little army men, not actually becoming one of those malcontents that espouses the ideology behind the symbolism (which would be the only reason that I can think of for actually carrying a flag around with you). On that note, why don't you take an American flag and walk around baghdad.
I have to argue with some of your logic here. Your analogy about Blood Angels and Ultrmarines is poor because it would only hold if you modeled them with bandanas around their heads and holding their guns gangster style. No one is arguing that the colors are wrong just that it is a little nonsensical to take something that is a sign of racism to MILLIONS of people and insert it into a game that has absolutely no connection with that symbol.
If their is no connection between the symbol and the game you are playing what reason would you have for using it? That is what people are going to ask themselves and a good number of them will come to the conclusion that you are racist. If you don't have a problem with that feel free to continue.
26
Post by: carmachu
Someone, somewhere, will get offended. Its inevitable in today's day and age.
Hell I recall 5+ years ago a guy pulled off the nazi bloodaxe army. *shrug* someone is bound to take offense.
I think its fine.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
Hell, you could get a distinctly WW II Soviet feel from some of the design cues in the IG (commisars, anyone?) and they werent exactly choir boys and girls, were they? No need for comparing relative atrocities, the point is that it is already there.
30024
Post by: A Black Ram
I really would say impression is what is key. Although I am against judging a person by their appearance, if I see your army, then look up at you and see your shaven head and braces, then I may be thinking, ''wait a second..''.
If you are not a skinhead, white supermist, then I say there really isn't much to be mad about. Do whatever you want nonetheless, but always be ready to back up yourself when someone has a problem with what you are doing. (I have learned to keep this in mind with alot of what I do)
19146
Post by: brother_zach
Historical Context aside (on however everyone views the War Between the States), the Confederacy (represented however anyone wants to or does) looks like the Pope compared to the grmdarkness of 40k. You're talking about a game filled with a mentality of "if it doesen't look like you, kill it, enslave it, tourture or tourment it, steal from it, or violate it". They're little plastic men, they are completely incapable of firing on your garrisons or burning crosses in your yard.
Who cares if the Confederacy isn't in the fluff? Why shouldn't it be? We have Romanesque space marines, along with several other early European Civilizations. There's influence from a bunch of nations through different periods too.
If the OP wants to make such an army then let him do it. Though the General Lee land speeder is confusing, it's clearly a reference to the Dukes of Hazzard(A show which doesen't really have any offensive content, also purley awesome in my opinion).
I'm really not liking the term "redneck" being thrown into this conversation like it's a 1 ply piece of toliet paper. The history of the term has absolutely nothing to do with the oppression and destruction of non-white race, nor does it connotate trashiness and a lack of education. I proudly consider myself a redneck, for my hard work ethic and dedication to everything I do. If this offends you, mabe that's what's wrong with the United States right now.
Also, the Alabama remarks really irritated me. I'm looking to move there for school, and on a visit down there, I saw NOT ONE confederate flag flown. Instead, I saw more US Flags than there are here in DC. Sit back and think about that one.
Frazzld, that awesome cross thing you mentioned is called a Maltese Cross. It is indeed awesome.
221
Post by: Frazzled
fullybakedbear wrote:most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
Modquisition on.
Outside of Nazis, communists, and people disparaging the greatness of weiner dog world uber domination, disparaging groups of people are not permitted on Dakka.
Private warnings are being given. Firther posts of this nature will be dealt with via temporary or permanent suspensions.
5470
Post by: sebster
fullybakedbear wrote:Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
For someone lecturing others on their understanding of history, you've adopted an extremely simplistic approach there yourself. You are right that Lincoln and the North in general didn't fight to free the slaves, their concern was with maintaining the union. But you've used that to assume that therefore the South didn't secede over slavery. Which is nonsense - the constitution of the Confederacy was almost identical to the constitution of the US, with the addition that the Confederacy couldn't stop any state from maintaining slavery if they so pleased. They were terrified the North was going to take their slaves off of them, and this was a big enough deal they went to war. That the North was very unlikely to actually enforce taking their slaves makes the whole thing more tragic, but it doesn't for one second change the motivations of the South.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
I love to death how it's wrong to disparage minorities but it's open season on rednecks. Really, I do. Can you feel the sarcasm drippin from that comment?
29034
Post by: Maledictus
fullybakedbear wrote:most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
The abolition of slavery would most likely have occurred within a decade or two regardless of the outcome of the war. Remember that the British passed an abolition act in 1833 three decades before the war began and spain even prior to that eventually, even had the confederacy maintained its secession, they would have had to cede to international pressure eventually.
IMHO the war had everything to do with morality and slavery, it was the last gasp of a dying and barbaric practice. Thats the tragedy, the south was fighting to maintain a way of life that was immoral, unsustainable and doomed.
EDIT: I'm not saying that the south was "evil" or that southerners were any more racist than anyone else (i am aware that most were too poor to own slaves). that said however you can be a bigot and still see that building an entire economy on human suffering its pretty fethed up. Many people in the 1800s considered slavery an evil practice, and even among those who did not i doubt you could find many who could justify it with a straight face. all this "everyone was racist back then, slavery was the flavor of the month" crap is pretty stupid.
19146
Post by: brother_zach
Maledictus wrote:fullybakedbear wrote:most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
The abolition of slavery would most likely have occurred within a decade or two regardless of the outcome of the war. Remember that the British passed an abolition act in 1833 three decades before the war began and spain even prior to that eventually, even had the confederacy maintained its secession, they would have had to cede to international pressure eventually.
IMHO the war had everything to do with morality and slavery, it was the last gasp of a dying and barbaric practice. Thats the tragedy, the south was fighting to maintain a way of life that was immoral, unsustainable and doomed.
Thats a little one dimensional way of looking at it. Considering that the South was being honest about their barbaric and inhumane practices (unlike their Northern rivals, who, when presenting the Emancipation Proclaimation, WITHELD the right to keep slaves in "Union territory"), and more worried about being left in the dust and all.
Lets face it, wars are never caused by one factor. This is because a nation's government needs a "burden of proof" which far exceedes a simple disagreement to sent their military into a meat grinder. You can look at the American Revolution, you can look at the War Between the States, or even modern 20th Century conficts. All conficts and wars are the result of multiple problems.
29034
Post by: Maledictus
brother_zach wrote:Maledictus wrote:fullybakedbear wrote:most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
The abolition of slavery would most likely have occurred within a decade or two regardless of the outcome of the war. Remember that the British passed an abolition act in 1833 three decades before the war began and spain even prior to that eventually, even had the confederacy maintained its secession, they would have had to cede to international pressure eventually.
IMHO the war had everything to do with morality and slavery, it was the last gasp of a dying and barbaric practice. Thats the tragedy, the south was fighting to maintain a way of life that was immoral, unsustainable and doomed.
Thats a little one dimensional way of looking at it. Considering that the South was being honest about their barbaric and inhumane practices (unlike their Northern rivals, who, when presenting the Emancipation Proclaimation, WITHELD the right to keep slaves in "Union territory"), and more worried about being left in the dust and all.
Lets face it, wars are never caused by one factor. This is because a nation's government needs a "burden of proof" which far exceedes a simple disagreement to sent their military into a meat grinder. You can look at the American Revolution, you can look at the War Between the States, or even modern 20th Century conficts. All conficts and wars are the result of multiple problems.
Uh...sorry no...the civil war was about slavery whether you like it or not. You say that wars never have just one factor, true, but what can you offer up that eclipses slavery as a cause for the civil war? And please dont give me all this "states rights", revisionist history, garbage.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Maledictus wrote:uh...sorry no...the civil war was about slavery whether you like it or not. what can you offer up that eclipses slavery as a cause for the civil war? and dont give me all this "states rights", revisionist history, garbage.
You are so adamantly wrong. "States Rights" is the correct answer, regardless of your limited ability to understand it. Economic and social differences between the North and South played their parts, and you might want to familiarize yourself with the word nullification. It was a pretty big deal to people like John C. Calhoun.
Slavery was a reason, not the reason..
19146
Post by: brother_zach
Maledictus wrote:brother_zach wrote:Maledictus wrote:fullybakedbear wrote:most offensive thing is how completely ignorant people are about the fraking thing. The Confederacy didn't have a flag. The Stars and Bars was a battle flag. Dumb ass southerners should be flying their state flag. Dumb ass everyone else should L2History. Nothing to do with morality or slavery. Heck, if Lincoln could have won the war without freeing the slaves, he would have. It was a political move, not a moral one.
He has the right to be an assclown if he wants.
The abolition of slavery would most likely have occurred within a decade or two regardless of the outcome of the war. Remember that the British passed an abolition act in 1833 three decades before the war began and spain even prior to that eventually, even had the confederacy maintained its secession, they would have had to cede to international pressure eventually.
IMHO the war had everything to do with morality and slavery, it was the last gasp of a dying and barbaric practice. Thats the tragedy, the south was fighting to maintain a way of life that was immoral, unsustainable and doomed.
Thats a little one dimensional way of looking at it. Considering that the South was being honest about their barbaric and inhumane practices (unlike their Northern rivals, who, when presenting the Emancipation Proclaimation, WITHELD the right to keep slaves in "Union territory"), and more worried about being left in the dust and all.
Lets face it, wars are never caused by one factor. This is because a nation's government needs a "burden of proof" which far exceedes a simple disagreement to sent their military into a meat grinder. You can look at the American Revolution, you can look at the War Between the States, or even modern 20th Century conficts. All conficts and wars are the result of multiple problems.
uh...sorry no...the civil war was about slavery whether you like it or not. what can you offer up that eclipses slavery as a cause for the civil war? and dont give me all this "states rights", revisionist history, garbage.
I never said slavery wasn't(or can't be) a reason the War Between the States started. Rather, you can't tack it as the sole reason it started. There are simply way too many primary sources from notorious peope from both the Union and Confederacy which blow this idea out of the water.
Regardless if you like it or not, State's rights was an issue in this time period. Expanding on this, one could say that Big Brother type Federal government was also a cause. A fear of being bullied from a national government is still commonly found in the American Southeast.
29034
Post by: Maledictus
brother_zach wrote:
I never said slavery wasn't(or can't be) a reason the War Between the States started. Rather, you can't tack it as the sole reason it started. There are simply way too many primary sources from notorious peope from both the Union and Confederacy which blow this idea out of the water.
Regardless if you like it or not, State's rights was an issue in this time period. Expanding on this, one could say that Big Brother type Federal government was also a cause. A fear of being bullied from a national government is still commonly found in the American Southeast.
Wow..States rights huh..like the right to um..own slaves? "big brother federal government" what are you a teabagger? being bullied...what? i asked you to give examples of causes for the civil war that eclipsed slavery, not spout empty rhetoric about the "big bad fed'rals". i never said slavery was the only cause, just the largest. you have yet to prove me wrong.
EDIT: if you really have so many "primary sources" weighing in on your side lets hear them
16387
Post by: Manchu
This is silly and so I am locking it. Feel free to continue via PM.
I had wondered if this thread would survive in Dakka Discussion longer than OT.
|
|
