Recently I've been working on the almost poisoned chalice that is the Chaos Space Marine Codex, trying to flesh it out again and bring it in line to 5th Edition and what many Chaos players seem to want. There was obviously flaws within the current Codex and the one before it, the largest of these being over-simplification and over-complication respectively. I've tried to smooth out both these flaws whilst adding a 5th Edition Competitive edge to it and allowing it to remain suitable and fluffy.
It's taken a fair ol' while and has been hard work at times but I hope you like it and provide some feedback.
Anyways, without further ado, here's my...

Chaos Space Marine Fandex - 5th Edition.

My PDF version of the Codex is attached at the bottom of this post, please give it a look.


This PDF is probably the final version of the Codex.

Please provide any feedback.

Thanks!


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I hope you all enjoyed reading it; all comments are more than welcome, in fact, they're encouraged. (Constructive) Criticism is also welcome, as is any input. Also, any further publicity wouldn't go amiss as I know Proposed Rules isn't the most popular of forums.

Thank you to Keatonic also who created his own version of my Fandex, this is available here should people want to use Keatonic's very generous version instead. I cannot guarantee however how up to date the rules are or anything however, but it was good of Keatonic nonetheless. Cheers.

Thanks a lot,
Dave.



Oh. Obviously, all play-testing and player-created army lists are welcome. If players could post their army lists (or experiences) from this then it would massively appreciated.




Please also check out my Eldar Codex.
And my Space Marine Codex.

Looks cool the first thing I saw that I would change is giving plague zombies ws 2 instead of 3. This would make almost all basic troops still hit on a 4 and something feels right about even guards men outclassing zombies in a fight.

I must say, this is a fine Codex you have written. If this was official, I would definitely buy it with little to no complaints, as almost everything I thought should be improved has been touched on.

BUT-

My only concerns are with the army-wide special rules. I like how Warband rules are being thought of again, but I think in some cases, it can be limiting. What about Apocalypse games, where anything and everything you own can be thrown on your side of the table, so long as it matches the points of your opponent? Playing a giant army of just Khorne Berzerkers wasn't exactly what I would have in mind. Or what about a player who is not interested in playing an army based on those in the fluff? What if he wants to make his own Legion of traitors, where maybe multiple Cult Troops of different kinds are appropriate? I think things like Iron Warriors giving you another avialiable HS slot, or something, could work. But if they just basically limiting the guys you can take, besides one or two kinds of units, many players may find themselves frustrated with it. I like the Warband Rules, but I think they should be an option, not a requirement.

This is a giant step in the right direction, though. Really great job! I hope to the Chaos Gods that GW sees this.

I am not gonna read any more unless you change 'all is dust' to either an invulnerable, FNP or an extra wound. That crunk of s*** rule from the 3.0 codex you have revived should be purged from all records and i actually feel personally insulted seeing it again. Apart from that it started really well.

Steve: Good Point, thanks. After thinking about it briefly, I'll likely create a 'to edit' list which it can go on. Thanks man.

Zack: Thank you very much man. Seriously, that is a huge compliment for the intentions of this, thank you.
In regards to your criticism I know what you're saying and I was very consciously trying to limit the effects they could have upon your FoC. My intentions were for the BL to enable a very customisable Codex as the only thing you lose out on is Legion-specific units.
I'm unsure as to what I can do about it. Black Legion has no detrimental effects upon the army composition and ultimately Apoc is friendly games and ultimately if he fields a HQ for each choice he can have as many Legions as he wants. It's a fair point though and I'll give it some thought. Thanks again.

Perkustin: As I said in my comments, TS were tricky. I originally had a 3++ against shooting, however that still makes them as vulnerable against small arms as they all ready are and shouldn't be. FNP would be the simplest solution but risk making them too similar to Plague Marines and an extra wound benefits them in close combat where they should suffer the most problems.
If you could point out the problem with the All is Dust rule, then that'd be great, although politeness would be preferred. Otherwise, I struggle to see viable alternatives...


Cheers All.

Just Dave wrote:Steve: Good Point, thanks. After thinking about it briefly, I'll likely create a 'to edit' list which it can go on. Thanks man.

Zack: Thank you very much man. Seriously, that is a huge compliment for the intentions of this, thank you.
In regards to your criticism I know what you're saying and I was very consciously trying to limit the effects they could have upon your FoC. My intentions were for the BL to enable a very customisable Codex as the only thing you lose out on is Legion-specific units.
I'm unsure as to what I can do about it. Black Legion has no detrimental effects upon the army composition and ultimately Apoc is friendly games and ultimately if he fields a HQ for each choice he can have as many Legions as he wants. It's a fair point though and I'll give it some thought. Thanks again.

Perkustin: As I said in my comments, TS were tricky. I originally had a 3++ against shooting, however that still makes them as vulnerable against small arms as they all ready are and shouldn't be. FNP would be the simplest solution but risk making them too similar to Plague Marines and an extra wound benefits them in close combat where they should suffer the most problems.
If you could point out the problem with the All is Dust rule, then that'd be great, although politeness would be preferred. Otherwise, I struggle to see viable alternatives...


Cheers All.

I must have misread the "0-1 Limit Removed". Alright

And BUMP, I can't believe no one else has commented on this.

From a first fast read:

• Dirge Caster – 10pts – Any enemy unit being tank-shocked by this vehicle suffers a -2 Leadership modifier to any Death or Glory! Attempts.

There is no Death or Glory leadership test. Only regular tank shot leadership and THEN when successful one model can attempt to DoG.

I also think that All is Dust in this state is ridiculously powerful. Especially on troops choice.
This makes the unit incredible immune to shooting. They are completely immune to up to S5 shooting, have 3+ save, 5++ AND fearless? Against shooting armies this just is impossible to kill. Put this on any objective and be safe without any thinking.

Numeration on daemons got little messed up.

Obliterators no longer fearless?

Daemons can ride the LR?

At the first glance everything looks great. Some units didn't need any upgrades from current CSM codex but they did. Almost everything (or even everything) got a buff or at least a 5-10 pts drop. Is current CSM codex really that bad? I'm asking balance / points / stats wise, not if it is bland or not interesting (which is the #1 beef with it I see).
There are some things too powerful here. Special notice to All is Dust as mentioned above. I'll try to read it again tomorrow because I may be wrong on numerous points.

There is just one thing I especially didn't like. There is too much of the stuff in here.
There are 9 warbands. Numerous special rules. 7 Specials, 4 HQs, 7 Elites, 8 Troops, 4FA and 12(!) HS and a rhino. PLUS 10 daemon units. That is almost double the amount what the other codex (plural codex?) have. This is an incredible long wall of text. While having many options is good I think you went a little over the top here.

Well written fandex. Probably the most well written, player created rule set I’ve seen for. It’s good to see someone take a logical approach as well as take into account physical and comparative game play. It’s also good to see someone not take the uber fanboy/Matt Ward approach lol.

Anyway here is my feedback:
1. Any daemon weapons still power weapons as their redux profile doesn’t explicitly state that they ignore armour in CC?

2. Balancing 5th edition CSM Lesser Daemons is a hard one and I’ve personally spent the past few months debating the same thing myself. I’ve reckon best approach out of the 3 options you have provided is to make their profile slightly inferior to their counter parts in the daemons codex ,either through an increased points cost on God Specific Daemons (Bloodletters costing 18pts) or slightly less power on God Specific Daemons (-1WS or -1A). Another idea I’ve though of is for God specific daemons to be treated identically to Cult Marines (0-1 unless army contains a Black Legion Warlord/appropriate Cult Marine HQ). I also reckon lesser daemons and greater daemons should either take up the appropriate FOC slot or contain the Auxiliary rule in their profile.

3. I also think Alpha Legion (assuming I’ve interpreted the Auxiliary rule correctly) lists should not be able to take both Heretics and Operatives for a Single unit choice. I reckon the Auxiliary rule should be written to allow a single auxiliary unit to be taken per single CSM/Cult Marine unit choice (example: Alpha Legion Force with 2 CSM squads, 1 Heretics squad and 1 Operatives squad). In either case, the Auxiliary rule should be written to be a little clearer to understand.

4. Thousand Sons could still use a little more work. A 5+ inv save + all is dust + inferno bolts at 22 pts per model make them extremely good. I reckon a small nerf along the lines of removing relentless from All is Dust (as inferno bolts + 5+ inv save + immunity to Flashlights and Bolt Guns is plenty good already)

5. I like what you did with Fabius Bile. Putting him in the elites slot and reworking him into an evil Sanguinary Priest esque unit was a Golden Idea. Poisoned 3+ on the Needler might be a little powerful so I reckon making the Needler poisoned 4+ instead.

6. I’ve noticed that you forgot to put Fearless in Huron’s profile (I reckon after surviving a melta gun blast and Huron’s shenanigans in general, Huron fears nothing).

7. I reckon you should remove Abaddon’s d6 extra attacks for his weapon. Str 8 attacks are plenty powerful already and removing the D6 also removes any possibility of his weapon rebelling. I also reckon that Guidance of Chaos can also be removed from his profile.

8. I’ve noticed that Abaddon’s profile contains a rule called “Favour of the Gods” which isn’t mentioned anywhere in the rule set

9. I want to point praise your revamped Chaos Dreadnaught rules. I’m already a big fan of the Plasma Cannon + Missile Launcher + Chaos Theory configuration. In regards to the Psyker Dread upgrade, some of the psychic powers, namely Warptime, Power of Chaos and Warp Rift might be too powerful in the hands of the Dread. Perhaps give the Psyker Dread a restricted list of powers to choose from. Also you should clarify if Fire Frenzy affects Psychic shooting attacks.

Overall I dig it. As far as daemons I'd say hit 'em with the instability before doing away with the same turn assault. I think the Thousand Sons are about as good as they're gonna get, there isn't an easy way to set 'em up that is differentiating and representative. Maybe make the sorcerer count as an independent character to make them even more vulnerable to CC? I do think LCs should be an option on the Raptor aspiring champion. I disagree with Candy.man on his 3rd and 7th points - I like that the Alpha Legion can have twice the auxiliaries, that's what they do - and removing the d6 extra attacks from his daemon weapon would be odd; but agree about Fabius, and that the work on the dreds is pretty much spot on.

OK guys, thanks for the responses. It's really appreciated and I'll be sure to take in everything you have said.

I'll post a proper reply with my appropriate intended changes later, but needless to say the following will be attended to:

- Thousand Sons - All is Dust will be removed altogether or replaced my something less powerful.

- Editing on Psychic Powers available to Dreadnought

- Brain Storming on Daemons

- Fixing grammatical issues such as Abbadon, Huron and Daemons/Transports.

- Defending any reasoning so far!

So yeah, watch this space!

Thanks guys, much appreciated.
Dave.

Once again, thanks for the input and compliments everyone, it's really appreciated. I'll address any key points later in this comment but first I'll address what I can now:

Macok wrote:From a first fast read:

• Dirge Caster – 10pts – Any enemy unit being tank-shocked by this vehicle suffers a -2 Leadership modifier to any Death or Glory! Attempts.

There is no Death or Glory leadership test. Only regular tank shot leadership and THEN when successful one model can attempt to DoG.

Will be changed, thank you.

Numeration on daemons got little messed up.

I'm unsure as to what you mean by this? If you mean the squad numbers, then I'll have a look. In regard to points, I said I don't have the Daemons Codex that the Daemons are my biggest hurdle in regards to this Codex.
If anyone would be willing to provide me with the relevant points costs of the Daemons that I have wrong that would be great. This can be cryptic to avoid Copyright if need be.

Obliterators no longer fearless?

Daemons can ride the LR?

Whoops. Both with be sorted.

At the first glance everything looks great. Some units didn't need any upgrades from current CSM codex but they did. Almost everything (or even everything) got a buff or at least a 5-10 pts drop. Is current CSM codex really that bad? I'm asking balance / points / stats wise, not if it is bland or not interesting (which is the #1 beef with it I see).
There are some things too powerful here. Special notice to All is Dust as mentioned above. I'll try to read it again tomorrow because I may be wrong on numerous points.

I agree, but the general trend in 5th Edition is reduced points throughout and one of the problems within the CSM Codex was its lack of competitive choice. I think when it comes to minor points costs, that will be something that can be ironed out within play-testing and further inspection, but I agree. Some of it may be under-costed or over-buffed, however there were several flaws, alongside the main lack of depth/character that I have tried to address, in particular:
- Some units (but few) being under-costed: Daemon Princes, Obliterators.
- Many units being over-costed: Thousand Sons, Noise Marines, Bikers, Raptors, Havoc Weapons.
- Many units having definitive flaws: Possessed, Lord vs. Prince, Dread/Craze, Land Raiders, Spawn, the over-costed.
- Many units simply being not taken: Terminators, CSM's (compared to Zerkers and Plague Marines), over-priced, flawed...

Which, although not to perfection, I fully admit, I would like to believe I largely solved.

Also, consider this:
- 10x CSM - Rhino, 2x Meltagun - 195pts.
- 10x Grey Hunters - Rhino, 2x Meltagun - 185pts.
- 10x Tactical Marines - Rhino, Meltagun and Multimelta - 210pts(?)

There is just one thing I especially didn't like. There is too much of the stuff in here.
There are 9 warbands. Numerous special rules. 7 Specials, 4 HQs, 7 Elites, 8 Troops, 4FA and 12(!) HS and a rhino. PLUS 10 daemon units. That is almost double the amount what the other codex (plural codex?) have. This is an incredible long wall of text. While having many options is good I think you went a little over the top here.

Now this is a criticism I can under-stand, however I will nonetheless defend my position on it. For one thing, many people demand for a Codex for each Legion(!) or one for Undivided and God-specific(!) and whilst I will withhold my opinion on this, I have managed to fit them into a single book and I struggle to see many other Codices with (if I do say myself) this much variety but (overall) relative simplicity. I THINK...
Also, let us compare this to the Space Wolf Codex, recent and which I own, hence the comparison.
- HQ's - CSM: 4 --- Space Wolves: 4
- Special's/Uniques - CSM: 9 --- Space Wolves: 8
- Elites - CSM: 5 --- Space Wolves: 6
- Troops - CSM: 8(!) --- Space Wolves: 2
- Fast Attack - CSM: 4 --- Space Wolves: 5
- Heavy Support - CSM: 8 (+4 Defiler Variants) --- Space Wolves: 7
- Dedicated Transports - CSM: 1 --- Space Wolves: 3

Whilst the Chaos Space Marines obviously have more troops (always their strong point, admittedly) and have the Daemons behind this. They still have an overall equal number of HQ's, Specials/Unique's, Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support.
Personally - while I can understand your doing so, considering they are actually listed as such - I'm reluctant to class each of the cult-defilers as an individual unit considering they are all variants of the same and the difference in minimal.
Finally, many (7) of the units are limited to individual Legions.
(note: I haven't mentioned the Daemons as they may yet be changed into a single choice with marks available).

Obviously there are a wider number of options in the CSM Codex, I'm not going to begin to deny that. However with their nature, I think that's almost inevitable and ultimately what I've just tried to prove is that they're not as widespread as you may think...

candy.man wrote:Well written fandex. Probably the most well written, player created rule set I’ve seen for. It’s good to see someone take a logical approach as well as take into account physical and comparative game play. It’s also good to see someone not take the uber fanboy/Matt Ward approach lol.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate it. I've seen you in proposed rules before, bringing a logical/reasonable/ not Matt Ward approach, so I appreciate it, particularly coming from yourself.

Anyway here is my feedback:
1. Any daemon weapons still power weapons as their redux profile doesn’t explicitly state that they ignore armour in CC?

Dang. I'd swear I had added that in! I'll do it now at least...

2. Balancing 5th edition CSM Lesser Daemons is a hard one and I’ve personally spent the past few months debating the same thing myself. I’ve reckon best approach out of the 3 options you have provided is to make their profile slightly inferior to their counter parts in the daemons codex ,either through an increased points cost on God Specific Daemons (Bloodletters costing 18pts) or slightly less power on God Specific Daemons (-1WS or -1A). Another idea I’ve though of is for God specific daemons to be treated identically to Cult Marines (0-1 unless army contains a Black Legion Warlord/appropriate Cult Marine HQ). I also reckon lesser daemons and greater daemons should either take up the appropriate FOC slot or contain the Auxiliary rule in their profile.

Yes, I've been thinking the same. At the bottom of this comment, I intend to propose changes to Daemons, similar to what you've suggested. I admit, I did strongly toy (and most likely will go for) the idea of giving them the Auxiliary rule, however I did not consider the Cult rule...

3. I also think Alpha Legion (assuming I’ve interpreted the Auxiliary rule correctly) lists should not be able to take both Heretics and Operatives for a Single unit choice. I reckon the Auxiliary rule should be written to allow a single auxiliary unit to be taken per single CSM/Cult Marine unit choice (example: Alpha Legion Force with 2 CSM squads, 1 Heretics squad and 1 Operatives squad). In either case, the Auxiliary rule should be written to be a little clearer to understand.

As someone else has said, that was largely my intention with the Alpha Legion; to allow for a wider number of auxiliary. However, this isn't without its drawbacks:
- Each auxiliary unit benefits from a infantry-beneficial rule in either Scouts or Infiltrate. Whilst these are obviously benefits, they are kind of contradictory in the typical mechanised environment.
- Heretics cannot take a dedicated transport
- Heretics and Operatives have a (distinctly) sub-par leadership without the addition of an expensive champion or slightly less expensive Icon.
- Chosen, who can be taken as troops under some conditions, do not benefit the auxiliary rule.

So whilst they can take a larger number of auxiliary units, this isn't perfect and IMHO requires they player to properly know the army in order to be truly competitive with it. But yes, either way, I will try to make it clearer.

4. Thousand Sons could still use a little more work. A 5+ inv save + all is dust + inferno bolts at 22 pts per model make them extremely good. I reckon a small nerf along the lines of removing relentless from All is Dust (as inferno bolts + 5+ inv save + immunity to Flashlights and Bolt Guns is plenty good already)

Yes, judging from the reactions, Rubric Marines do need changing. However, despite how much more awkward it may make it for me, I would much prefer they keep the relentless rule over All is Dust as this unrelenting, unstoppable advance is what they're renowned for, not their toughness. Anyways, I will address this further down...

5. I like what you did with Fabius Bile. Putting him in the elites slot and reworking him into an evil Sanguinary Priest esque unit was a Golden Idea. Poisoned 3+ on the Needler might be a little powerful so I reckon making the Needler poisoned 4+ instead.

I may do that. I hoped it would be off-set by the range and lack of armour piercing - it's unlikely to even ID a Space Marine! - however I will look into it...

6. I’ve noticed that you forgot to put Fearless in Huron’s profile (I reckon after surviving a melta gun blast and Huron’s shenanigans in general, Huron fears nothing).

Noted.

7. I reckon you should remove Abaddon’s d6 extra attacks for his weapon. Str 8 attacks are plenty powerful already and removing the D6 also removes any possibility of his weapon rebelling. I also reckon that Guidance of Chaos can also be removed from his profile.

I agree about Guidance, particularly with the benefits of Icons. I'm still intending to keep the extra attacks however; he's known for being a beast in close combat and still is and potential rebellion can hinder this. I can agree with your concern, but I don't recall anyone before criticising him for his level of power. I will consider giving him an extra D3 attacks but without potential rebellion instead...
However, yes I will remove Favour of the Gods.

9. I want to point praise your revamped Chaos Dreadnaught rules. I’m already a big fan of the Plasma Cannon + Missile Launcher + Chaos Theory configuration. In regards to the Psyker Dread upgrade, some of the psychic powers, namely Warptime, Power of Chaos and Warp Rift might be too powerful in the hands of the Dread. Perhaps give the Psyker Dread a restricted list of powers to choose from. Also you should clarify if Fire Frenzy affects Psychic shooting attacks.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I will change that, you are very right. I intend to allow him Power of Chaos due to it's short range. However, yes Warptime is too much for a dread, as for the characters that are otherwise the only guys who can access it, they do not have fancy ranged weapons to benefit from it, unlike the dread. So yes, Warptime cannot be accessed (changed).
I will also change Warp Rift. As this was one of the last things added into the Codex, I didn't think about its effect on the dread, who obviously can under this deep-strike as far as he'd like without fearing wounds! I intend to still allow it, however I'll change it to cause penetrating its on a 1 for the dread, due to his size in traversing the warp.

Bromsy wrote:Overall I dig it. As far as daemons I'd say hit 'em with the instability before doing away with the same turn assault. I think the Thousand Sons are about as good as they're gonna get, there isn't an easy way to set 'em up that is differentiating and representative. Maybe make the sorcerer count as an independent character to make them even more vulnerable to CC? I do think LCs should be an option on the Raptor aspiring champion. I disagree with Candy.man on his 3rd and 7th points - I like that the Alpha Legion can have twice the auxiliaries, that's what they do - and removing the d6 extra attacks from his daemon weapon would be odd; but agree about Fabius, and that the work on the dreds is pretty much spot on.

Thank you man. I will consider the Raptor/LC again as tbh I had all ready, although only briefly.
The Daemon-thing I now will address below, after Thousand Sons, for whom I really appreciate your understanding of my predicament!

Anyways, onto the two major 'issues' atm that need to be addressed:

Thousand Sons/ Rubric Marines

As I said in my 'notes' and as others have noted, these guys were always going to be tricky and obviously in my incarnation they aren't particularly balanced. One of the serious problems I face with the Rubric Marines, is making them their own whilst differentiating them from the other choices, particularly Plague Marines.
Either way, All is Dust will be removed all together. However, it MAY be replaced by one of the following effects, depending on what some people think:

Remove All is Dust All-together. I think it's a fine line between 22pts being over-costed without this rule or under-costed with one of the below.

Grant a 4+ invulnerable save. This would be the simplest change and would fit with Tzeentch whilst still allowing them vulnerability to small arms. However, this would still benefit them in close combat.

Provide a 3++ against shooting. This would make them more resilient against shooting, but still vulnerable to small arms and CC. However, this isn't what I intended for the Rubric Marines. Although in this respect it would differentiate them from Plague Marines who are otherwise all but immune to small arms but vulnerable to the big guns.

Allow Rubric Marines to re-roll any armour save (not inv.) roll of 1 against shooting. This would be more complicated than the others (slightly) whilst still providing a noticeable but very subtle buff.

Finally; when the Aspiring Sorcerer (or Sorcerer) casts Warp Rift with a squad of Rubric Marines, they may take an armour save against any rolls of 1. this one's a bit more 'out there' than the other suggestions, but this would provide a definitive bonus and further differentiate them from the other Cult Units.

what are everyone's thoughts for this? Personally, my preference would have to be the re-roll '1's against shooting as it's the least likely to unbalance them, but still benefit resilience to small arms. IMHO.

Secondly:
Daemons

As I said in my notes, these guys were the main problem I encountered. They were always going to be prone to being over-powered if simply shifted from one Codex to another and whilst I was always intending to change it, I wanted other peoples opinions on it. Nonetheless, here's the changes I propose for Daemons.

Firstly, and this is my preferred change, is to simply have Lesser and Greater Daemons and let them take Marks which have a more significant effect than normal. This may seem like an almost cop-out but it's the simplest and acts as a bit of a two-for-one as whilst it still allows variation within the Daemons, it cuts down on choices within the Codex (Macok ) and maintains a bit more consistency with the existing 'dex.
This would work as Lesser Daemons remaining as they are but with access to the following Marks(note: Marks, not Icon):
- MoK - 5pts each - Grants +1 WS and Furious Charge (and +1 attack)
- MoS - 5pts each - Grants Rending (and +1 initiative)
- MoN - 5pts each - Grants Feel No Pain, but minus one initiative. (and +1 toughness)
- MoT - 5pts each - Grants -1 WS and attack, but allows the following ranged profile: Range: 18" - Strength: 4 - AP: 5. Assault 2, fired using the WS as BS. (and 4++ invulnerable).

Whilst for Greater Daemons this would be something along these lines, added to the existing blank profile:
- MoK - 45pts - Grants +1 WS, +1 attack, +1 Strength, Furious Charge and Fleet.
- MoS - 45pts - Grants +1 Attack, +2 (total) Initiative, Fleet and Warptime Psychic Power.
- MoN - 45pts - Grants Feel No Pain, -1 Initiative and Nurgles Rot Psychic Power.
- MoT - 45pts - Grants -1 attack, -1 WS, -1 Initiative, +1 BS and allows casting of up to two Psychic Powers per-turn.

Obviously, these marks aren't perfected or anything yet, but you can see it...

Or, keep current profile and disallow charge on turn of arrival - simplifies in regards to Deep-strike, prevents OP'ness but may be a bit harsh and unthematic.

Daemonic Unstability - Cause D3 (no saves allowed) wounds upon arrival. Fits with the fluff, adds inconsistency but will be very hit or miss and a possibly a bit harsh in regards to Greater Daemons.

Simply add on a 10% or so point increase across the board (rounding down).

-----------------------

Once again, all opinions are welcome (within reason!), particularly in regard to what i've just proposed for the Rubric Marines and Daemons. Army lists, more publicity and other input is also welcome.
Thanks everyone,
Dave.

1)Spiky bits seems really good. Park a rhino in cover, and hose those charging tyranids. I'd make the hits Init1, and I'd base the strength off the speed of the vehicle. I'd hate to lose 5 out of every 6 gaunts when attacking a parked tank.

2) Plague Zombies. Seem too good for 4 points. WS3 A2, T3(4) and feel no pain? They are going to devour blob squads. (better save, better toughness, more attacks).

3) Daemons. Daemons should be weak and cheap; they should not play a major roll in a Space marine book. I would go with generic daemon stats, and then add:
Khrone: +1 WS
Slaanesh: +1 Init
Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Tzeench: 4++ save
Undivided: ? Prefer Enemy?
I know a lot of people want something better, but having cheap units that score rain down is pretty good. Their is also a serious issue stealing thunder from daemon players.

4) Thousand Sons; how about the 5++ save, and feel no pain (FnP only vs shooting). That will double the survival rate against flak fire, without improving them in close combat.

5) Psychic dreadnoughts. Just don't do it.

6) Warcoven. Neat idea, but a bit expensive and short ranged. I'd make the unit 3, and additional guys are bought in groups of 3. I'd just give them 2 powers, and not have them buy individual powers. It doesn't feel like coven if each guy is doing his own thing.
I'd double the range of the psychic disrupt, and maybe make it a +1 per 3 guys as well. All this should drive the cost of the unit down, allowing for a bigger unit; rather than having 3 baby HQ's that all stand together.


That's all for now.

-Matt

Numeration on daemons got little messed up.

Just Dave wrote:1. Lesser Daemons
1. Bloodletters

Just Dave wrote:1. Greater Daemon
5. Great Unclean One

I missed vehicle upgrades last time, so a few notes.
As HawaiiMatt said - spiky bits is incredibly strong. Init1 won't fix this.
I generally agree with everything Matt said here.
Get rid of FNP (among others) on zombies and/or increase their cost significantly.
Right now you've got 120 T4 FNP units for 480pts. Good luck killing this even with 1500pts army. I'd take this every game no matter what and laugh at objective missions.

I also don't like open-topped rhinos. There is a good reason why no army got this upgrade. Especially in CSM codex, which have better CC troops than their good cousins. Av11 and open topped is not a good solution because it gives many buffs while keeping it unaffected by small str fire.

I really understand the problem with many Legions / Chapters etc. in one codex. I play Eldar and would love having some specific rules for each and every craftworld. This problem in some different ways, for example:
a) Special characters. Like in SM book. You want your army to be more like Salamanders - take this guy. This is very easy solution.
b) Some inner codex specific rules, like taking a Big Mek allows you to take some green dudes as troops. etc. Very similar to a).
c) Do nothing actually. Give units from different Legions and if player wants to play fluffy World Eaters he CAN do this only by selecting appropriate units.
d) You have to choose between one of them - like in this case. Many people will be happy because they can have their own Legion in CSM book, and it is much, much more different than just having one rule thanks to some random special guy. This however enforces fluff on army composition and restricts your army. This is good for fluffy armies, but what about just some casual game when you want to try some other units. Suddenly your whole army must be changed because your original Legion doesn't allow you to take something, or makes something else scoring / cheaper.

I do not own / never played daemons so I can't comment on that. :((

EDIT:
I only nitpick in my posts, but I generally admire the work here. Props to you!

Right, some general edits have been made. These are listed here and at the bottom of the OP:

- All is Dust edited.
- Plague Zombies removed, Spiky Bits (vehicle upgrade) removed.
- Daemons Weapons can ignore armour, Huron is Fearless, Daemons cannot ride in transports, Obliterators are Fearless, Psychic Powers edited slightly, Dreadnought/Psychic clarification, numeration on Daemons changed, Abbadon Special Rules re-worded.
- Daemons in process of being changed.

HawaiiMatt wrote:1)Spiky bits seems really good. Park a rhino in cover, and hose those charging tyranids. I'd make the hits Init1, and I'd base the strength off the speed of the vehicle. I'd hate to lose 5 out of every 6 gaunts when attacking a parked tank.

2) Plague Zombies. Seem too good for 4 points. WS3 A2, T3(4) and feel no pain? They are going to devour blob squads. (better save, better toughness, more attacks)

Both have been removed. Spiky Bits was of limited use as it was and such upgrades are rarely taken by players. Plague Zombies would be difficult to balance, add another unit to the available and are of limited appeal. As such, both have been removed.

3) Daemons. Daemons should be weak and cheap; they should not play a major roll in a Space marine book. I would go with generic daemon stats, and then add:
Khrone: +1 WS
Slaanesh: +1 Init
Nurgle: +1 Toughness
Tzeench: 4++ save
Undivided: ? Prefer Enemy?
I know a lot of people want something better, but having cheap units that score rain down is pretty good. Their is also a serious issue stealing thunder from daemon players.

They shouldn't play a major role, I agree. As such they will also gain the auxiliary rule as-well. I don't believe they should be weak however. If my intended changes go into effect then they should perform as shock-troops in close combat but are slightly too expensive to be taken into widespread use.
But yes, stealing thunder from Daemon Players is an issue I want to avoid. All Greater Daemons at least should be worse, and I'm intending for the Lesser Daemons to be worse too, but this could be more tricky. This issue is also counteracted if they aren't a simple copy and paste from the Daemon Codex and that they cannot use their FA/HQ/Elites/HS choices too.
So yes, to some extent I agree with what you're saying.

4) Thousand Sons; how about the 5++ save, and feel no pain (FnP only vs shooting). That will double the survival rate against flak fire, without improving them in close combat.

Actually, that may be the most simple (beneficial) change I could make, achieving its intended purpose. The only problem is stepping on the toes of the Plague Marines.

6) Warcoven. Neat idea, but a bit expensive and short ranged. I'd make the unit 3, and additional guys are bought in groups of 3. I'd just give them 2 powers, and not have them buy individual powers. It doesn't feel like coven if each guy is doing his own thing.
I'd double the range of the psychic disrupt, and maybe make it a +1 per 3 guys as well. All this should drive the cost of the unit down, allowing for a bigger unit; rather than having 3 baby HQ's that all stand together.

I admit, I think you are under-estimating the amount of firepower these guys could put out. However, I will change it, particularly because, as you said "it doesn't feel like a coven if each guy is doing his own thing". So they will be changed in one way or another.

Macok wrote:Numeration on daemons got little messed up.

Oooh! Simpler change than I realised! Thanks!

I missed vehicle upgrades last time, so a few notes.
As HawaiiMatt said - spiky bits is incredibly strong. Init1 won't fix this.
I generally agree with everything Matt said here.
Get rid of FNP (among others) on zombies and/or increase their cost significantly.
Right now you've got 120 T4 FNP units for 480pts. Good luck killing this even with 1500pts army. I'd take this every game no matter what and laugh at objective missions.

As I said to Matt, both these guys have been removed.

I also don't like open-topped rhinos. There is a good reason why no army got this upgrade. Especially in CSM codex, which have better CC troops than their good cousins. Av11 and open topped is not a good solution because it gives many buffs while keeping it unaffected by small str fire.

Whilst I can under-stand your concern, this ability does still cost points and does make it more vulnerable. I really can under-stand your concern, but manoeuvrability and actually getting into CC was something CSM's often struggled with, particularly 'zerkers. Also, Orks can do this even better and in larger numbers! Hopefully the offset in points and vulnerability adds some compensation. May raise it to 15pts I guess...

I really understand the problem with many Legions / Chapters etc. in one codex. I play Eldar and would love having some specific rules for each and every craftworld. This problem in some different ways, for example:
a) Special characters. Like in SM book. You want your army to be more like Salamanders - take this guy. This is very easy solution.
b) Some inner codex specific rules, like taking a Big Mek allows you to take some green dudes as troops. etc. Very similar to a).
c) Do nothing actually. Give units from different Legions and if player wants to play fluffy World Eaters he CAN do this only by selecting appropriate units.
d) You have to choose between one of them - like in this case. Many people will be happy because they can have their own Legion in CSM book, and it is much, much more different than just having one rule thanks to some random special guy. This however enforces fluff on army composition and restricts your army. This is good for fluffy armies, but what about just some casual game when you want to try some other units. Suddenly your whole army must be changed because your original Legion doesn't allow you to take something, or makes something else scoring / cheaper.

As I said when you first brought it up, I do understand what you are saying and was also reluctant about implementing such a rule.
In regards to what you have suggested:
a - To me at least, this is a boring and unsuitable mechanic that also seems to be fairly unpopular with many players. This can still be achieved but doesn't force the player to select a certain character.
b - This is something that I have - and still would - consider, such as making cult units elites unless a HQ takes a certain mark. I do fear this would cut down on the character though and benefits to non-cult armies.
c - This is something I would rather avoid doing. Whilst I can see the appeal, I fear this is something that could easily be abused.
d - I really agree with what you're saying here and restricting the player is something I really, really want to avoid and that example you provided would be the kicker for that argument as, as I just said, I really want to avoid restricting the player.
However, IMHO, in its current format, the player isn't restricted unless he goes god-specific (and even then he only misses out on 1 unit) and most of the bonuses provided by Legions is actually very subtle and can allow a player to make it as thematic or unthematic as he likes. For example, Black Legion allows you to do pretty much anything you want...
ZackTheChaosChild brought up a similar issue at first too but seemed appeased with the flexibility allowed, particularly in The Black Legion.

I'm quite happy with the effect of the Legion rule, I'm just reluctant about the application and almost forcing players to take it. However, general fan reaction to the existing CSM 'dex suggests that such a rule would be wanted...

I only nitpick in my posts, but I generally admire the work here. Props to you!

thanks!

OK, a quick edit made tonight regarding Lesser Daemons, in that I have removed the current god-specific profiles and have given the option for Marks and conferred the Auxiliary special rule.
This cuts down on over-crowding the Codex, removes their being over-powered, prevents them stealing from the Daemons Codex and hopefully simply makes them a simpler unit.

Once again, all Feedback is appreciated. Cheers.

Note: Greater Daemons will be similarly changed soon and I am currently brain-storming the changes to be made to the Sorcerers Warcoven.

I like it, although I find the too many special rules/new wargear to be a little confusing, but I guess that's because it's not printed on a book, where you can go back and forth in pages.

I am preparing an email to GW about the next Chaos Codex, would you mind if I "steal" some of your ideas? (it's for the good of all Chaos players!)

I've only had a quick skim but...

No invulnerable save on oblits ? I don't see why they MUST choose a weapon either... ? Too expensive too.

I think the sonic weapon rules, as suggested are pretty terrible I'm afraid. I think existing sonic gun stats are fine and dandy. What i would suggest to provide some balance is to make them a free upgrade but costs the noise marine both his bolt gun and/or bolt pistol. The changes to the blastmaster I find equally odd -- why do noise marines now not have any anti tank options in their squad at all ? I agree the blast rule is, perhaps a bit good. I would lower the points cost of the weapon, give it S7 and a variable ( rolled each time the unit fires) AP value. I would maybe try making this a one per 5 in the squad weapon. Oh, and making it assault 1 R24" or heavy 2 range 36".

I would remove the "pure" Gds and indeed just allow them to be aligned much like the lesser daemons. Maybe with an option to buy them daemonic flights for X points as well.

I think you might as well just change "all is dust" to a flat out "may reroll failed saves".. and leave it as that. Also if the sorcerer MUST be bought for the squad then let's just add him into the basic 5 man squad price from the start. No invulnerable save at all IMO. What do inferno bolts do here anyway ?


I don't see any point to the chaos champion HQ option existing. Combat patrol is over and gone. Deal with it.

I think something to further make your choice of HQ affect the army build would be cool. Maybe selecting a Dp should affect your daemon choices, and something like a sorcerer means possessed count as scoring units -- ala pedro and sternguard.

I think the 4++ on the DP is a bit OTT, and giving a 3++ is.. well.... you want to be able to kill them.

I personally don't think Lucius and Kharn should be HQ, merely upgrade characters for their cults.. but we've argued this before.

I would avoid the inclusion of a Basilisk, I think it just makes it awkward as/when the "parent" book changes, even though the 'lisk stats are pretty solid. i would suggest either making havocs count as scoring units or allowing 1 Vindicator to be taken as a troops choice -- like the ork mek and a deff dread.

Abaddon should make any unit he is with fearless... don't think he does that now/here ?

Chain axe rules are OTT to me, especially given the number of A they can throw out. I don't see why they should be any different than normal cc weapons.


Cypher shouldn't be in the chaos codex. At all.

Don't agree with the land raider variant at all. ..why ?

I think the variant Defilers would be best folded into being merely options for the Defiler.

I would also allow or suggest squadrons for Vindicators and predators -- but only for non possessed ones .

Please don't mistake brevity for rudeness here, it's a fine start IMO.

Tzif wrote:I like it, although I find the too many special rules/new wargear to be a little confusing, but I guess that's because it's not printed on a book, where you can go back and forth in pages.

Thanks, I hope that it's just the format, it wouldn't surprise me if it was otherwise, but I have been - and still am - trying to cut down on the number of 'extra' rules...

I am preparing an email to GW about the next Chaos Codex, would you mind if I "steal" some of your ideas? (it's for the good of all Chaos players!)

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, in all honesty, I'd rather you didn't. Not until it's the finished article at least...
Thanks and Sorry!

reds8n wrote: I've only had a quick skim but...

No invulnerable save on oblits ? I don't see why they MUST choose a weapon either... ? Too expensive too.

Whoops. That's a mistake - will edit that. And I'll cut their points down to 80pts.

I think the sonic weapon rules, as suggested are pretty terrible I'm afraid. I think existing sonic gun stats are fine and dandy. What i would suggest to provide some balance is to make them a free upgrade but costs the nosie amrine both his bolt gun and/or bolt pistol. The changes to the blastmaster I find equally odd -- why do noise mariens now not have any anti tank options in their squad at all ? I agree the blast rule is, perhaps a bit good. I would lower the points cost of the weapon, give it S7 and a variable ( rolled each time the unit fires) AP value. I would maybe try making this a one per 5 in the squad weapon. Oh, and making it assault 1 R24" or heavy 2 range 36".

OK, I appreciate the honesty Red. I wasn't fully happy with my incarnation either, I may go for your idea on the Blast Master though. I had also been toying with the idea of making them 1 in 5, so I'll go with that too.
I'm unsure why you feel the Sonic Blaster should be a free upgrade however?
Also, I was conversely unsure as to why - being sonic weaponry - Noise Marines should have any anti-tank at all?! Obviously it's beneficial for game-terms, but you can always get your anti-tank elsewhere without having to 'waste' the fire of a the rest of the squad? Maybe its just me though?

I would remove the "pure" Gds and indeed just allow them to be aligned much like the lesser daemons. Maybe with an option to buy them daemonic flights for X points as well.

Yeah, don't worry man. I changed the Lesser Daemons to be upgradable rather than 'pure' yesterday and now I intend to do the same with the Greater Daemons. I also intend to give them Fleet instead of wings as IMHO, being able to arrive (summoning) in the enemies face was balanced by the GD's otherwise lack of manoeuvrability, so I would rather not give them wings as well to make them the whole deal. Fleet seems like a suitable compensation to me though.
But yes, they are in the process of being changed.

I think you might as well just change "all is dust" to a flat out "may reroll failed saves".. and leave it as that. Also if the sorceror MUST be bought for the squad then let's just add him into the basic 5 man squad price from the start. No invunlerable save at all IMO. What do inferno bolts do here anyway ?

I guess I could make it re-roll failed saves against ranged attacks, however Tzeentch is all about the invulnerable saves.
As for the 'must' on the Sorcerer, whilst I completely understand your reasoning, it was to provide a benefit to the 'magic numbers' per-se.
Also, Inferno Bolts are AP3 as they were before. If it's not mentioned in the Wargear then its not changed.

I don't see any point to the chaos champion HQ option existing. Combat patorl is over and gone. Deal with it.

Actually, the Chaos Champion was a later addition to provide access to a cheap HQ choice who would be much more viable for one of the Legion-specific special rules, and/or representing smaller Legions and use in smaller games.
Many armies seem to have a more minor HQ and personally I intend to keep him...

I think something to further make your chocie of HQ affect the army build would be cool. Maybe selecting a Dp should affect your daemon choices, and something like a sorceror means posessed count as scoring units -- ala pedro and sternguard.

I was seriously considering allowing possessed to be scoring via a special character, however I decided against it in the end. I may change the rules on Hakanor and make him a Prince from the Beasts of Annihilation(?) and therefore allow possessed as scoring.
Generally however, I've tried to avoid making the HQ's force multipliers to reflect their more greedy nature.

I think the 4++ on the DP is a bit OTT, and giving a 3++ is.. well.... you want to be able to kill them.

Whilst I would normally agree with you, I found the current DP to be a bit... fragile and not befitting of an increased points cost or the favour of Chaos, hence their boost. However, they CANNOT get to 3++ as, like you said, that's a bit much!

I personally don't think Lucius and Kharn should be HQ, merely upgrade characters for their cults.. but we've argued this before.

Whilst I can see your point, yes we have argued this before!

I would avoid the inclusion of a Basilisk, I think it just makes it awkward as/when the "parent" book changes, even though the 'lisk stats are pretty solid. i would suggest either making havocs count as scoring units or allowing 1 Vindicator to be taken as a troops choice -- like the ork mek and a deff dread.

Well I think the Basilisk suits the Iron Warriors, whilst scoring Havocs doesn't so much and are much more liable to being OP'ed IMHO. I'm willing to risk the Bassie falling behind the parent codex, as, although it's a justified concern, Chaos often has 'older' toys...

Abaddon should make any unit he is with fearless... don't think he does that now/here ?

No he doesn't, I may change that. Although, his usual retinue (Terminators) are stubborn.

Chain axe rules are OTT to me, especially given the number of A they can throw out. I don't see why they should be any different than normal cc weapons.

Yeah, you may be right here. If some others provide feedback on this I will likely change it, particularly given your reasoning behind it...

Cypher shouldn't be in the chaos codex. At all.

Yeah, I was reluctant to include him but fans seem to want him and he has a great model. I also like his role. But yes, he may or may not go...

Don't agree with the land raider variant at all. ..why ?

Well, most Chaos players want an extra Land Raider and complain about Forge World or GW not giving them one. I personally envisage the Marauder as an almost linebreaker, something suited for Chaos, particularly in its transport capacity.

I think the variant Defilers would be best folded into being merely options for the Defiler.

Yeah, this I will do.

I would also allow or suggest squadrons for Vindicators and predators -- but only for non possessed ones .

Personally, I'm not sure why? Normal Space Marines can't do it and CSM's probably shouldn't be any different in that respect. I would on the other hand consider making Defilers squadrons!

Please don't mistake brevity for rudeness here, it's a find start IMO.

It's OK man, I can understand your time constrains (my terms just started too) and I appreciate the feedback. Changes will be made as needed...

The sonic weapon thing I think should be added as I think Slaanesh guys get kind of a raw deal at times, especially if you compare what they get compared to the other cult options -- a point you touch on early on. I thought about maybe giving them fleet but I think given the access to land raiders that might be a bit too abusive -- turn 1 charges are something that should be rare IMO. It's an iconic weapon for them, but if you don't have to give anything up to get the gun they become too much of a no brainer/default choice. The current 5 points is a bit too expensive IMO.

I think they have to have some anti tank, if only for small games. The other cults and troops all do, and whilst I agree that things like powerfists and melta weapons etc etc shouldn't be C & p'ed into every squad option, they need something.

I think the flat out invulnerable saves for the 1K sons is amongst the worst things that GW have done to the faction -- and in 40k they've been shafted good and proper for years. the fluff has them as animated suits of power armour and logically therefore ( insofar as logic has any place in the game/setting anyway ) those suits should be just as vulnerable to high S low AP as normal power armour suits IMO. What wouldn't knock them down is small arms fire punching holes/similar in them. They used to be immune to shooting attacks of less than S5 once upon a time -- which was a bit too much I'll grant you.

I would perhaps even say we should remove the compulsion that says they MUST have a champion, and maybe give them something akin to wraithsight unless they do have a sorceror/IC/psyker within X inches.

I really think that most of the "modern" books are in fact moving away from the "lesser" HQ options, most of the books now have no 2W HQ choice IIRC. I think the "danger" here is that a player in smaller points games can get someone who is 90% as deadly as a fuller HQ... when what should happen is the fuller HQ should be a little less uber than normal.

I've had similar issues with my princes.. but in my experience they tend to gunned down by ( for example) heavy bolter fire/similar, and the option for the 2+ armour goes a long way towards making them a bit more durable. Armour save and an Invulnerable save is pretty tasty on a MC.

As for the squadrons : I think it's a nice way to represent the vast resources the original legions had and also helps bulk out the codex for bigger games. I would suggest it's an obvious step for the regular marines -- don't know if you've seen the Astartes siege list in IA 10 but they can take squadrons of preds, whirlwinds and vindicators.

I would avoid letting any possessed engines go squadron sized -- call it the rule of spite or jealousy/similar -- as given what they ignore that's a bit overpowered IMO.

Right, more changes have been made:

Greater Daemons have become a single Greater Daemon with Marks Available.

As have Defilers.

Obliterators have gained 5++ and a 5pts points decrease.

If anyone is unhappy with any changes then please say so. Personally, I'm much happier with the Greater Daemons, though they may still be a bit rough round the edges.
I'm more apprehensive about the Defilers however; although it cuts down on unit entries, I believe they worked better as individual units rather than upgrades, but we'll see how that goes for now...

As ever, all C+C is welcome. Thanks.

Looking great, I have some suggestions bout Kharn. Him hitting on a +2 was kinda his unique thing being probably the best warrior in the 40k universe(biased some lol ) (also the Betrayer thing) maybe put that back, drop the +2 armor save down to +3 again and the preferred enemy. I like the added Champion of Khrone and Eternal Warrior much needed . Just some suggestions for the character. Also for berserkers why not also add FNP for them? Blood Angel Death Company has it and it would seem fitting for berserkers.

reds8n wrote:The sonic weapon thing I think should be added as I think Slaanesh guys get kind of a raw deal at times, especially if you compare what they get compared to the other cult options -- a point you touch on early on. I thought about maybe giving them fleet but I think given the access to land raiders that might be a bit too abusive -- turn 1 charges are something that should be rare IMO. It's an iconic weapon for them, but if you don't have to give anything up to get the gun they become too much of a no brainer/default choice. The current 5 points is a bit too expensive IMO.

Yeah, I know what you mean Red and I too thought about fleet - albeit only briefly.
I still struggle to understand the point behind Sonic Blasters being optional though; it keeps the points consistency with the other cult troops and a Sonic Blaster is better than a Boltgun and would therefore a real no-brainer...

I think they have to have some anti tank, if only for small games. The other cults and troops all do, and whilst I agree that things like powerfists and melta weapons etc etc shouldn't be C & p'ed into every squad option, they need something.

You have a point, I will see what I can do in regards to simplifying but also beefing up the (1 in 5) Blast Master... I'm thinking Strength 6, Assault 3 or Heavy 5. Light anti-tank I admit, but Strength 7 on a gun that uses sound is a bit... odd to me?

I think the flat out invulnerable saves for the 1K sons is amongst the worst things that GW have done to the faction -- and in 40k they've been shafted good and proper for years. the fluff has them as animated suits of power armour and logically therefore ( insofar as logic has any place in the game/setting anyway ) those suits should be just as vulnerable to high S low AP as normal power armour suits IMO. What wouldn't knock them down is small arms fire punching holes/similar in them. They used to be immune to shooting attacks of less than S5 once upon a time -- which was a bit too much I'll grant you.

The whole immunity to small arms fire is exactly what I was aiming for with this and I completely agree with your point. In regards to this, I now intend to change it to FNP, without Invulnerables. Although, yes, this does step on the PM's toes a little bit, it's simpler and more 'reasonable' than re-roll armour saves IMHO. It balances out well with the points in regards to a lack of invulnerable save too.

I would perhaps even say we should remove the compulsion that says they MUST have a champion, and maybe give them something akin to wraithsight unless they do have a sorceror/IC/psyker within X inches.

This I am also now considering, they have Wraithsight if the Sorc. dies as it is, however I may make a Sorcerer option and only have 'wraithsight' not occur if a sorcerer of some form is in the unit.

I really think that most of the "modern" books are in fact moving away from the "lesser" HQ options, most of the books now have no 2W HQ choice IIRC. I think the "danger" here is that a player in smaller points games can get someone who is 90% as deadly as a fuller HQ... when what should happen is the fuller HQ should be a little less uber than normal.

I know what you're saying, however, the "lesser" HQ here doesn't have base invulnerable save, Daemonic Steeds or - more significantly - Daemonic Weapons; hampering is comparitive deadliness.
Also, as I said before, this is supposed to help represent Warbands of varying sizes and allow easier access to the legion-specific special rules.
Finally, I'd argue otherwise in regards to GW moving away from lesser HQ's. In 5th edition Codices we have the Wych-HQ, WGBL, Tyranid Prime, Commisar Lord who are all (arguably) "lesser" HQs...

I've had similar issues with my princes.. but in my experience they tend to gunned down by ( for example) heavy bolter fire/similar, and the option for the 2+ armour goes a long way towards making them a bit more durable. Armour save and an Invulnerable save is pretty tasty on a MC.

Yes, I know what you mean here actually and I must agree in regards to the mass fire taking them down, however there is still a 2+ available if you pay for it (Chaos Armour) and I find a 4++ suits the Daemonic nature a bit more; stops the powerfists and the like too!
However, a 2+ would certainly help against certain weapons, but then again, so does a 4++...

As for the squadrons : I think it's a nice way to represent the vast resources the original legions had and also helps bulk out the codex for bigger games. I would suggest it's an obvious step for the regular marines -- don't know if you've seen the Astartes siege list in IA 10 but they can take squadrons of preds, whirlwinds and vindicators.

I would avoid letting any possessed engines go squadron sized -- call it the rule of spite or jealousy/similar -- as given what they ignore that's a bit overpowered IMO.

I can see what you're getting at Red, but I still find it doesn't make that much sense, in that the loyalists can't do it but the traitors can. After-all, the CSM's can reliably produce said units, Vindicators were very late heresy and it's the loyalists that have access to the STC's.
Whilst it certainly would help it in larger games (which are already CSM's strong point to be fair), I'm not sure how necessary it is... There's plenty of emphasis on Heavy Support anyways...
As for the Defilers, these are the things that the traitors can still regularly produce and would - if anything - further display their reliance of Daemonic support/weaponry. Also, the Iron Warriors HAD (Trygons = om nom nom'ed) 600 Defilers on one planet! I've never heard of that many Vindi's or Preds in one place.
Finally, in game terms, it's a lot more beneficial/over-powered to Preds/Vindicators I would've thought, as due to Daemonic Possession Defilers already ignore shaken and stunned results and it would therefore be less 'overpowered' IMHO?

Lord Chiasson wrote:Looking great, I have some suggestions bout Kharn. Him hitting on a +2 was kinda his unique thing being probably the best warrior in the 40k universe(biased some lol ) (also the Betrayer thing) maybe put that back, drop the +2 armor save down to +3 again and the preferred enemy. I like the added Champion of Khrone and Eternal Warrior much needed . Just some suggestions for the character. Also for berserkers why not also add FNP for them? Blood Angel Death Company has it and it would seem fitting for berserkers.

Thanks man, I know what you mean about the 2+ WS thing, however when he hits better than an Avatar it seems a bit dubious, IMHO the preferred enemy has compensated for this anyways...
As for the Bezerkers, they don't really need any more 'boosting' in my opinion and then they'd REALLY be stepping on the toes of other cult units.


Intended Changes to be implemented are:

- Thousand Sons love invulnerable save and re-rolling 1's. Instead they gain FNP.
- Blast Masters are to be changed.
- Warcoven to be changed.
- Special Characters to be reviewed.
- Squadrons in HS (likely Defilers! ) considered, as will be non-mandatory Asp. Sorcerers in Rubric Marine squads.

These will be added in one big group as it were, so the Codex is currently slightly behind what it's intended to be atm.

Cheers, I will update it as soon as I can.
Dave.

I personally feel that Kharn is just about fine the way he is. Maybe up his price if you give him a 2+ Artificer save.

Don't nerf him just because the Avatar sucks. That would be the WORST thing you could do.

Just Dave wrote:Yeah, I know what you mean Red and I too thought about fleet - albeit only briefly.
I still struggle to understand the point behind Sonic Blasters being optional though; it keeps the points consistency with the other cult troops and a Sonic Blaster is better than a Boltgun and would therefore a real no-brainer...

It's the iconic and defining trait/characteristic of the Slaanesh cult in 40k..and they don't come with it ?

Nurgle == bonus T, blight grenades and FnP
Khorne == FC, +1 Ws and A.. chainaxes.
Tzeentch == .. whatever their armour is and inferno bolts, relentless.
Slaanesh == +1 i..and.... ? How is that fair ? This is why I think the upgrade should be free but, in the example I gave, it costs them an A in melee as they also lose the bolt pistol so it becomes an actual choice.

You have a point, I will see what I can do in regards to simplifying but also beefing up the (1 in 5) Blast Master... I'm thinking Strength 6, Assault 3 or Heavy 5. Light anti-tank I admit, but Strength 7 on a gun that uses sound is a bit... odd to me?

It's not just sound remember, it's discordant warp energies. I don't see why, for example, men in sealed terminator armour would be bothered by buzzing flies and a nasty smell from blight grenades but...

The whole immunity to small arms fire is exactly what I was aiming for with this and I completely agree with your point. In regards to this, I now intend to change it to FNP, without Invulnerables. Although, yes, this does step on the PM's toes a little bit, it's simpler and more 'reasonable' than re-roll armour saves IMHO. It balances out well with the points in regards to a lack of invulnerable save too.

fair enough, I do think this makes them like plague marines lite though. maybe keep your reroll 1s and have a psychic power/sorceror benefit that might let a squad reroll all failed saves ?

I know what you're saying, however, the "lesser" HQ here doesn't have base invulnerable save,

and is pretty much worthless in the modern game for this army then no ?

Also, as I said before, this is supposed to help represent Warbands of varying sizes and allow easier access to the legion-specific special rules.
Finally, I'd argue otherwise in regards to GW moving away from lesser HQ's. In 5th edition Codices we have the Wych-HQ, WGBL, Tyranid Prime, Commisar Lord who are all (arguably) "lesser" HQs...

Pretty much all of these have 3w and the full range of options the regular HQ has.

I can see what you're getting at Red, but I still find it doesn't make that much sense, in that the loyalists can't do it but the traitors can. After-all, the CSM's can reliably produce said units, Vindicators were very late heresy and it's the loyalists that have access to the STC's.
Whilst it certainly would help it in larger games (which are already CSM's strong point to be fair), I'm not sure how necessary it is... There's plenty of emphasis on Heavy Support anyways...
As for the Defilers, these are the things that the traitors can still regularly produce and would - if anything - further display their reliance of Daemonic support/weaponry. Also, the Iron Warriors HAD (Trygons = om nom nom'ed) 600 Defilers on one planet! I've never heard of that many Vindi's or Preds in one place.
Finally, in game terms, it's a lot more beneficial/over-powered to Preds/Vindicators I would've thought, as due to Daemonic Possession Defilers already ignore shaken and stunned results and it would therefore be less 'overpowered' IMHO?

Then you need to reread your fluff.

the old Legions had access to numbers of tanks which would make the modern chapters weep with jealousy.

Storm of Iron 1 warband of Iron warriors fields over 100 siege tanks. In the follow up novel in the EoT they pit armoured companies of tanks against the IW fortress. The IW, staying with them, took part in the largest tank battle in the 40K setting on Tallarn.

In my experience chaos armies struggle at higher points games as they generally have already used up all force selections worth taking already. My 1500 list uses all 3 heavy, 2 HQ, 3 troops and 2 elites with the existing list. I'm not exactly overjoyed at the possibility of fielding overpriced and not very good bikes/raptors etc etc at higher points games.

This also, for example, makes it actually possible to field a renegade list that isn't dependent upon daemonic tanks, oblits etc etc... which is one of the goals of the revamp is it not ?

I think what you might see this way in fact is squadrons of cheaper ( ie less heavily armed Predators for example) as a tooled up squadron would be very expensive indeed.
Are you familiar with quite what the squadron rules do for tanks ? They both give and take away, and this is why I think letting daemonically driven tanks "buddy up" ( like Defilers) would be a bit OTT.

Subscribed/Bookmarked. I only just started, and it's looking great. Gotta come back and read it again soon.

P.S., how close are you to finishing? Are you going to release a .PDF?


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Some notes as I read along: The whole 'two legions' thing may cause some fairly significant confusion, and I'd recommend for the sake of streamlining and simplicity to make it a one legion limit.


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I'd also recommend the Legion Rule to be an option, rather than a requirement just for the sake of argument. Another criticism (hope you don't take it personally, I'm just trying to help out,) is the explanation of the Auxiliaries rules. It could use a better explanation. Does this mean I can only take one cult and multiple different auxiliaries? What's the difference, other than flavor?


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The Daemonkin may be the only random rules that I like in the entirety of Warhammer. Great job!


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In regards to e. Death Guardian, do you mean that it can take a 4+ cover save while in assault? Or something else?


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How's playtesting coming?

lol no does not work

Berzerker_spam wrote:lol no does not work

If we could at least try and make our comments actually constructive it would be much appreciated. Thanks.

OK, I have a fairly serious proposal to make here in regards to the Legion Rule:

I am now thinking that instead of its current incarnation (which I fully admit isn't the best), I suggest it should now become a 'mark' of sorts for unit entries.
For example, rather than each unit having to be designated as belonging to a Legion - the same as a HQ choice of course - pretty much all vehicles and units can select (FOR FREE) a Mark of the Chaos Legions.

For example, it would be changed to something like this (spoiler for ease):



Whilst this may seem complicated when explained like this, it will make it simpler overall I expect. Although it would increase the number of options available to each unit, this means that units don't HAVE to be aligned with a HQ choice and helps clarify things through representation of Wargear.
In regards to cross-cultural (Legionary) CSM forces, it could simply be worded so that a unit with the Mark of [insert Legion] can only enter transport vehicles that also have the Mark of [insert Legion] etc.

As I said, it may seem complicated when explained like this, but I think overall it will make things a lot simpler in regards to confusion between the Legion rules.
Obviously, to save confusion the reference of 'Marks' may be changed to something such as 'brand', 'emblem', 'symbol' etc.

Thoughts?

jp400 wrote:I personally feel that Kharn is just about fine the way he is. Maybe up his price if you give him a 2+ Artificer save.

Don't nerf him just because the Avatar sucks. That would be the WORST thing you could do.

It's not so much that the Avatar sucks, but that Kharn shouldn't be able to so reliably hit a God of War. With a WS7 and Preferred Enemy he's still considerably capable of doing so however.
On the other hand, atm Kharn is seriously under-priced and will therefore go back to 3+ and probably lose PE too.

reds8n wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Yeah, I know what you mean Red and I too thought about fleet - albeit only briefly.
I still struggle to understand the point behind Sonic Blasters being optional though; it keeps the points consistency with the other cult troops and a Sonic Blaster is better than a Boltgun and would therefore a real no-brainer...

It's the iconic and defining trait/characteristic of the Slaanesh cult in 40k..and they don't come with it ?

Nurgle == bonus T, blight grenades and FnP
Khorne == FC, +1 Ws and A.. chainaxes.
Tzeentch == .. whatever their armour is and inferno bolts, relentless.
Slaanesh == +1 i..and.... ? How is that fair ? This is why I think the upgrade should be free but, in the example I gave, it costs them an A in melee as they also lose the bolt pistol so it becomes an actual choice.

Sorry Red, but what was the point you were trying to make again? That they should have Sonic Blasters as optional?
If so, then as it is it rounds out their points to equal the others, is superior to the Boltgun and therefore would be taken instead if optional and - as you said - is there defining characteristic? As you also said, in the current Codex they are over-priced; hence they're much less so here...

It's not just sound remember, it's discordant warp energies. I don't see why, for example, men in sealed terminator armour would be bothered by buzzing flies and a nasty smell from blight grenades but...

That's a fair point as well actually, I'll see what I can do...
(had forgotten the Warp Energy bit)

fair enough, I do think this makes them like plague marines lite though. maybe keep your reroll 1s and have a psychic power/sorceror benefit that might let a squad reroll all failed saves ?

I agree, it does seem a bit like Plague Marines lite, but I feel there is enough difference in the rest of their stats to help differentiate, but yes, it's still stepping on their toes a little bit and I acknowledge this.
Then again, I may stick with the re-roll ones as the Sorcerer Lord special rule combined with FNP would be too much IMHO.

(Sorcerer Lord = 1 for a HQ in the army, 45pts (optional) - Each turn, a single friendly unit within 12” of a Sorcerer Lord can re-roll either unsuccessful to-hit rolls or unsuccessful armour saves for both shooting phases of that turn.)

and is pretty much worthless in the modern game for this army then no ?

No. He can still get an Invulnerable save and he can perform as a relatively cheap way to add force-multiplication rules such as Sorcerer Lord (above).

Then you need to reread your fluff.

the old Legions had access to numbers of tanks which would make the modern chapters weep with jealousy.

Storm of Iron 1 warband of Iron warriors fields over 100 siege tanks. In the follow up novel in the EoT they pit armoured companies of tanks against the IW fortress. The IW, staying with them, took part in the largest tank battle in the 40K setting on Tallarn.

In my experience chaos armies struggle at higher points games as they generally have already used up all force selections worth taking already. My 1500 list uses all 3 heavy, 2 HQ, 3 troops and 2 elites with the existing list. I'm not exactly overjoyed at the possibility of fielding overpriced and not very good bikes/raptors etc etc at higher points games.

This also, for example, makes it actually possible to field a renegade list that isn't dependent upon daemonic tanks, oblits etc etc... which is one of the goals of the revamp is it not ?

I think what you might see this way in fact is squadrons of cheaper ( ie less heavily armed Predators for example) as a tooled up squadron would be very expensive indeed.
Are you familiar with quite what the squadron rules do for tanks ? They both give and take away, and this is why I think letting daemonically driven tanks "buddy up" ( like Defilers) would be a bit OTT.

I wouldn't doubt I do need to catch up on some of my fluff...

... However, it still remains that - unlike with defilers - the CSM's do not have the resources to build more pred's and vindi's (do they?! STC?) although Storm of Iron is a good example. However, a Single Warband of Iron Warriors still had 600+ Defilers - significantly more.

Also, whilst yes, it would help renegades step away from daemonic engines, it also suggests that renegades have even more tanks then their loyalist counterparts who don't field in squadrons.

Finally, whilst I fully admit my strongest point most certainly is not the rules of the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Defilers already ignore Shaken and Stunned Results and therefore do not gain this from Squadrons, whilst they can still be destroyed as the result of immobilisation. Unlike Pred's/Vindi's which would now be able to ignore shaken and stunned and therefore gain a benefit Defilers miss out on?
I dunno, I'm sorry but I'm still unconvinced as to why Preds or Vindi's should be squadrons, particularly in comparison to defilers...

crazypsyko666 wrote:Subscribed/Bookmarked. I only just started, and it's looking great. Gotta come back and read it again soon.

P.S., how close are you to finishing? Are you going to release a .PDF?

Thank you man, I appreciate this. Well the army rules per-se are largely finished. If it's popular enough - and I have enough time - I do intend to create a PDF, yes.
ATM it's largely fixing any flaws within the army list options, fluff etc. would be added into the PDF on the other hand.

Some notes as I read along: The whole 'two legions' thing may cause some fairly significant confusion, and I'd recommend for the sake of streamlining and simplicity to make it a one legion limit.

For simplicity sakes, you are completely right, yes. However, forcing players to only have one Legion wouldn't be fair or popular IMHO.

I'd also recommend the Legion Rule to be an option, rather than a requirement just for the sake of argument. Another criticism (hope you don't take it personally, I'm just trying to help out,) is the explanation of the Auxiliaries rules. It could use a better explanation. Does this mean I can only take one cult and multiple different auxiliaries? What's the difference, other than flavor?

Don't worry man, I won't take it personally, I appreciate the help. But yes, I shall re-write Auxiliaries, that seems to be a problem someone else commented on too, so yes, that will be changed.
As for the Legion rule, someone else also raised the idea of making it optional, but to me this just adds confusion as to what happens to non-Legion units and that Black Legion is effectively the default choice and doesn't hinder what you can take...

However, you could check out the Legion rule at the top of this post to see if you prefer that proposal.

The Daemonkin may be the only random rules that I like in the entirety of Warhammer. Great job!

Why thank you!

In regards to e. Death Guardian, do you mean that it can take a 4+ cover save while in assault? Or something else?

Well as far as I know, you cannot get Cover Saves in assault, so no. I'll have another look at it however and see if I need to change the wording...

How's playtesting coming?

Actually, atm play-testing is non-existent! I don't really PLAY WH40K much atm and nor do I have the time or resources available to me atm...

Hmm, I wish Kharn did away with that silly rule that makes him hit his own men. In his current incarnation he's so easy to kill that it doesn't matter if he's a combat beast.

I'm not really sure I like the rewrite of the Legion rule. The whole point is to define the army and its composition, and allocating these rules to individual units means two things: That it could easily be abused by selecting the best possible options for each army, and two, that it still makes things pretty confusing. I'd take the two legions thing over that any day.


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@reds8n: I'd argue that the Iron Warriors have such powerful siege capabilities is BECAUSE they maintain their vehicles with such high regard. They and the Imperial Fists were the two masters of siege and defense, why wouldn't they have the best available?


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Lord Chiasson wrote:Looking great, I have some suggestions bout Kharn. Him hitting on a +2 was kinda his unique thing being probably the best warrior in the 40k universe(biased some lol ) (also the Betrayer thing) maybe put that back, drop the +2 armor save down to +3 again and the preferred enemy. I like the added Champion of Khrone and Eternal Warrior much needed . Just some suggestions for the character. Also for berserkers why not also add FNP for them? Blood Angel Death Company has it and it would seem fitting for berserkers.

Because FNP/high T is a big thing for Nurgle. Lethality and ferociousness in CC is Khorne's. For a perfect example of these differences, look up the troop choices in the Daemon's codex if you haven't.

How about the Slanesh marines get the equivalent of the onslaught psychic power from the nids codex; maybe make them pass an Initiative Test, then they can run and shoot in their shooting phase, no assault unless they are also fleet?


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Hmm, and maybe give zerks the ability to at any point in the game trade Furious Charge for a permanent +1 S and I, and they then suffer from Rage?


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well, maybe at the start of any turn.

Have you thought about subtracting one from the S of ranged attacks against the Rubric Marines? Would make it harder for massed fire to hurt them, without affecting heavy weapons much if at all.

Sorry Red, but what was the point you were trying to make again? That they should have Sonic Blasters as optional?
If so, then as it is it rounds out their points to equal the others, is superior to the Boltgun and therefore would be taken instead if optional and - as you said - is there defining characteristic? As you also said, in the current Codex they are over-priced; hence they're much less so here...

No, I'm still waiting for an actual argument as to why Noise marines don't get the defining feature of their cult as standard when every other cult does. Blight grenades, chainaxes, inferno bolts aren't optional extras.. why are sonic guns ?

... However, it still remains that - unlike with defilers - the CSM's do not have the resources to build more pred's and vindi's (do they?! STC?) although Storm of Iron is a good example. However, a Single Warband of Iron Warriors still had 600+ Defilers - significantly more.

Also, whilst yes, it would help renegades step away from daemonic engines, it also suggests that renegades have even more tanks then their loyalist counterparts who don't field in squadrons.

Of course the CSMs can make new tanks. The Dark Mechanicus and captured forge worlds constantly produce new tanks, titans, armour etc etc. Plus of course they steal and pillage from the loyalist forces too.

The same way that, apparently, iron warriors are capable of stealing Basilisks, tanks that they cannot fit into to drive, steer or fire and have no regular munitions for.

Finally, whilst I fully admit my strongest point most certainly is not the rules of the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Defilers already ignore Shaken and Stunned Results and therefore do not gain this from Squadrons, whilst they can still be destroyed as the result of immobilisation. Unlike Pred's/Vindi's which would now be able to ignore shaken and stunned and therefore gain a benefit Defilers miss out on?
I dunno, I'm sorry but I'm still unconvinced as to why Preds or Vindi's should be squadrons, particularly in comparison to defilers

Not quite. Squadrons downgrade stunned ( may not move or shoot) to shaken ( may not shoot but may move). Defilers, of course disregard both these affects, as would any Possessed tank. If you look at the way you can assign hits to a squadron I think squadrons of constantly moving and shooting is bit overpowered. they'd be too many turns where a hail of shooting did nothing assuming you could even get past the higher AV of a predator or vindicator anyway.

Have to say that these rules are pretty cool. Just skimmed through them and liked what I saw.

One comment on the lack of god specific numbers in squads giving any kind of reward - had you thought about including it at all?

OK guys, Version 1.2 is up; made some relatively minor changes and some more serious ones:
- Rubric Marines - Sorcerers Warcoven - Blast Masters - Auxiliary Writing (STILL VERY UNSURE ABOUT ITS WORDING HOWEVER) - Special Characters Changed (Kharn and DP) - Termies can take LR as a Dedicated Transport.

If people could also consider my proposed changed to the Legions special rule at the bottom of page 1, that'd be great too. Thanks guys.

Still, all constructive criticism, comments (positive or negative), army lists and general feedback is appreciated. Cheers.

As for the comments:

crazypsyko666 wrote:I'm not really sure I like the rewrite of the Legion rule. The whole point is to define the army and its composition, and allocating these rules to individual units means two things: That it could easily be abused by selecting the best possible options for each army, and two, that it still makes things pretty confusing. I'd take the two legions thing over that any day.

OK, cheers. It would still be limited to Legion Marks only being available if there is a HQ choice with the same mark, but thanks for the feedback.

Bromsy wrote:How about the Slanesh marines get the equivalent of the onslaught psychic power from the nids codex; maybe make them pass an Initiative Test, then they can run and shoot in their shooting phase, no assault unless they are also fleet?


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Hmm, and maybe give zerks the ability to at any point in the game trade Furious Charge for a permanent +1 S and I, and they then suffer from Rage?

Personally I'm fairly happy with the profiles of Zerkers, Noise Marines and Plague Marines as it stands. As characterful as your proposals are, I believe they'd add further complication without needing so. Thank you nonetheless.

reds8n wrote: No, I'm still waiting for an actual argument as to why Noise marines don't get the defining feature of their cult as standard when every other cult does. Blight grenades, chainaxes, inferno bolts aren't optional extras.. why are sonic guns ?

Oh, well in that case then I think something has gone wrong down the line as they've always had Sonic Blasters as Standard in my codex.

Not quite. Squadrons downgrade stunned ( may not move or shoot) to shaken ( may not shoot but may move). Defilers, of course disregard both these affects, as would any Possessed tank. If you look at the way you can assign hits to a squadron I think squadrons of constantly moving and shooting is bit overpowered. they'd be too many turns where a hail of shooting did nothing assuming you could even get past the higher AV of a predator or vindicator anyway.

OK, well sorry Red but personally I'm still unconvinced as to Squadrons being included. Normal Space Marine Codices don't have a problem and I struggle to see a similar problem emerging here?

SilverMK2 wrote:Have to say that these rules are pretty cool. Just skimmed through them and liked what I saw.

One comment on the lack of god specific numbers in squads giving any kind of reward - had you thought about including it at all?

Thank you Silver, it's appreciated.
Well, the specific cult units do get bonuses for their 'magic numbers' if that is satisfactory for you?

Sorry, totally missed that

[/reading fail]

I think that Ahriman should be a able to do 4 or even 5 powers a turn. He should be AT LEAST as good as Mephiston in this area.

Been reading it over, also Ahriman maybe not T6 with an invun But yeah I think slaanesh needs a little more as the others over shadow it a little

Two things about auxiliaries now that I understand them. Simply say you can't have more auxiliaries than normal troops, and secondly, label them. Put a star next to their names, a cross, something to indicate that they have specific rulings that need to be adressed.

I haven't gone through all the slots & exact wording, but at first it seems like you put a lot of effort into presenting us with something that captures pretty well the character of a CSM Army, so for me it's a great tool!

My only concern, from my point of view, is that for a lot of the units, your changes are "cheaper & better".
Though this is your work, and even though some units in the current Codex are clearly overpriced, you'll definitely have some difficulties to make your adversaries accept a list that has more efficient troops for less points!

I hope you get my point, you did an awesome amount of work, it's just that it looks too "biased" for it to be a valid change.

Good luck!!

Yggdrasil wrote:I haven't gone through all the slots & exact wording, but at first it seems like you put a lot of effort into presenting us with something that captures pretty well the character of a CSM Army, so for me it's a great tool!

My only concern, from my point of view, is that for a lot of the units, your changes are "cheaper & better".
Though this is your work, and even though some units in the current Codex are clearly overpriced, you'll definitely have some difficulties to make your adversaries accept a list that has more efficient troops for less points!

I hope you get my point, you did an awesome amount of work, it's just that it looks too "biased" for it to be a valid change.

Good luck!!

I think it melds pretty well with the power creep of the day.

SilverMK2 wrote:Sorry, totally missed that

[/reading fail]

It's all right man, not everyone can afford an education these days...

phantommaster wrote:I think that Ahriman should be a able to do 4 or even 5 powers a turn. He should be AT LEAST as good as Mephiston in this area.

Sorry man, but I don't think anyone short of a Daemon Prince should be matching Mephiston.

necronsftw wrote:Been reading it over, also Ahriman maybe not T6 with an invun But yeah I think slaanesh needs a little more as the others over shadow it a little

Thanks, I'll look into this, but if you could possibly point out some 'specifics' as it were, that'd be good thanks.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Two things about auxiliaries now that I understand them. Simply say you can't have more auxiliaries than normal troops, and secondly, label them. Put a star next to their names, a cross, something to indicate that they have specific rulings that need to be adressed.

Yeah, I'll put that about Auxiliaries. Good idea.
All Auxiliary units do have Auxiliary in their profiles, but I may add that in as-well.
Cheers Psyko.

Yggdrasil wrote:I haven't gone through all the slots & exact wording, but at first it seems like you put a lot of effort into presenting us with something that captures pretty well the character of a CSM Army, so for me it's a great tool!

My only concern, from my point of view, is that for a lot of the units, your changes are "cheaper & better".
Though this is your work, and even though some units in the current Codex are clearly overpriced, you'll definitely have some difficulties to make your adversaries accept a list that has more efficient troops for less points!

I hope you get my point, you did an awesome amount of work, it's just that it looks too "biased" for it to be a valid change.

Good luck!!

Thank you man, I appreciate the kind words and understanding.
Yes, as you said, I have put a lot of work into it and I would like to think it does capture the feel well, so thank you.

Do not worry about your concern though, it's perfectly reasonable and you were polite about it!
I can completely understand the concern though and it's been something I'd like to avoid, so I will certainly look into it. I intend to have a big ol' re-read over the whole thing again soon to make sure I think it's all OK as I simply haven't had the time since adding the latest 'updates', so yes, I will certainly look into this.

As I said though, I appreciate the criticism (honest!) and I will look into it. However, if you could point out any specific examples, that would be great thanks!
Of course, any other input you may have would be welcome too!

Although, as Psyko said, I is intended to be a 5th Edition Codex, so obviously there will be a certain amount of power-creep, but I don't want it being the next SW or BA Codex. However, being a Fandex, balance is often the most tenuous issue as I'm sure you're aware...

But yes, I will look into it of course, but if you could provide any further input into this or other matters, that would be great.
However, I think I may (maybe not all) increase Cult Units to 23pts each...


Also, just for reference/balance:

- 10x Tactical Marines, Meltagun, Multimelta, Rhino, Powerfist - 235pts (??)
- 10x Grey Hunters, 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Powerfist - 215pts

- 10x Chaos Space Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Powerfist (Champion) - 235pts
- 7x Plague Marines, 2x Meltagun, Rhino, Powerfist (Champion) - 234pts
- 8x Khorne Bezerkers, Rhino, Powerfist (Champion) - 236pts

Just made a few (relatively minor) changes:

- CSM's are now up to 16pts - they're still a good unit, however I think they can be a bit too cheap when combined with Legion freebies. Hopefully not now.

- Rubric and Plague Marines increased to 23pts each. Considering doing the same to Noise Marines and Zerkers.

- Raptor Champion can take twin lightning claws.

- Kind of considering adding a couple of other options such as a Defiler Variant with a cannon akin to the D-cannon, replacing all other weapons and reducing it's attacks. This would basically make it a walking dark-mechanicum gun-platform that is ruined by a single Weapon Destroyed and if destroyed would auto-explode...
Couple of other ideas floating around, maybe allowing Bikers as troops if the Chaos Lord is on a bike (C: SM) and another Elite and/or Fast Attack option would be nice.
Also considering Renegade special rules.
Nothing seriously considered yet though...

As ever, all opinions are appreciated. Thanks

You know what I want? I want actual goddamn Daemons in the codex, not some stupid 'Roll a D6' crap. How am I expected to have a decent lord of change with my Thousand Sons if I can't decide which Greater Daemon I'm buying!?

Looks cool, will probably test it out some time. My Berzerkers thank you for the open topped Rhinos

Little thing I found though; in the heretics entry it says they can get an extra special weapon if the squad numbers 10 models, while 10 is the minimum. I guess that should say 20.

crazypsyko666 wrote:You know what I want? I want actual goddamn Daemons in the codex, not some stupid 'Roll a D6' crap. How am I expected to have a decent lord of change with my Thousand Sons if I can't decide which Greater Daemon I'm buying!?

I'm not sure what you are on about? Several times I've discussed the design of the Daemons and the difficulty in implementing them. Seriously, what are you talking about?

TiB wrote:Looks cool, will probably test it out some time. My Berzerkers thank you for the open topped Rhinos

Little thing I found though; in the heretics entry it says they can get an extra special weapon if the squad numbers 10 models, while 10 is the minimum. I guess that should say 20.

Thanks man, any playtesting is appreciated. Zerkers may be heading up to 23pts however, but we'll see.
But yes, I shall change the heretic profile. Cheers.


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Actually, I have just increased the points costs of all Cult Units to 23pts, I fear this may a bit too much for some, but I will have to wait and see.
Ultimately, the Cult Units are less common in number and this can represent this. Khorne Bezerkers suffer the biggest change as a result of this, however in my version they can ignore armour saves (potentially) and do have access to open-topped rhinos.

I mean, I want to be able to choose between a bloodletter or a horror, a Lord of Change and a Great Unclean one.

(Wow, that was a really incoherent rant before... I'll try to make more sense when I'm a rage-filled Daemons fanboy next time).

Not sure what you mean. I think Just Dave has done a pretty elegant job of distinguishing all the different brands of daemon from each other without making the Chaos Daemons codex seem too redundant. Bloodletter? Lesser Daemon with MoK, Horror? Lesser Daemon with MoT. You want a Lord of Change? Use the Lord of Change model and give the thing a Mark of Tzeench.

You know, I should probably stop while I'm ahead of myself and try to forget my previous two posts. I'd probably just end up wanting to put Codex: Daemons inside of the CSM book. Ignoring me on this is probably the best idea right now.

crazypsyko666 wrote:I'd probably just end up wanting to put Codex: Daemons inside of the CSM book.

Don't we all...

TiB wrote:

crazypsyko666 wrote:I'd probably just end up wanting to put Codex: Daemons inside of the CSM book.

Don't we all...

I guess you're right, TiB...

crazypsyko666 wrote:I mean, I want to be able to choose between a bloodletter or a horror, a Lord of Change and a Great Unclean one.

(Wow, that was a really incoherent rant before... I'll try to make more sense when I'm a rage-filled Daemons fanboy next time).

Thank you TiB, I appreciate the support.

As for the Daemons Crazy, although you seem to have calmed down over the matter, I'll explain to you the reasoning behind it.
When I first created the Codex, as you'll see when you read some of my posts, I would've liked to make the Daemons a straight-up copy and paste from their own Codex, providing consistency and simplicity and yet allowing the Daemons Codex to remain exclusive due to its won rules and units.

However, as soon as I started adding them to the army list I saw the Chaos Daemons to be too powerful to be straight up added into the Codex. The most serious flaw the Daemons face in their Codex is that they have to weather at least one turn of shooting when they arrive and that you have less control in when (and where) they arrive. Although this flaw works well to balance them within their own Codex, it would be almost entirely removed under the process of summoning.
You would now have Daemons appearing right in the face of the opposing player, leaving them with little opportunity to stop such specialised infantry. One of the reasons that Bloodletters and Daemonettes, otherwise excellent assault units, are criticised is that they are fragile. If they arrive following the rules of summoning for Chaos Space Marines, than unless they turn up at the worst possible moment, this fragility won't matter and they'll be in the perfect place to easily assault the enemy for no handicap. It just simply wouldn't be balanced. You'd have multi-attack, furious charging Bloodletters equipped with Power weapons appearing right in front of your lines and charging into combat without having to weather any fire.

A similar situation would occur for Greater Daemons. In the current Chaos Space Marine Codex, although they are superior to the Daemon Prince in stat-line, they aren't taken as often because they lack the manoeuvrability. Models ported straight from the Daemons Codex are absolute killing machines with the Lord of Change and Bloodthirster both having Wings. As with the Lesser Daemons, there would be no drawback to having the Daemons like this. They would appear close to the enemy lines and be able to get straight into combat with no disregard or harm to themselves.

Obviously, I didn't want this clear lack of balance so I intended to change this, proposing several methods:
- Have them unable to charge the turn they arrive.
- Have a Daemonic Instability rule, whereby D3/6 Wounds are removed upon arrival.
- Increase the points cost throughout
- Change them to lesser Daemons with marks.

Obviously, I settled on permitting Marks to be selected. Ultimately, this (hopefully) kept the units balanced and still thematic. This also seemed to be other peoples preferred result too. One of the flaws with Daemons atm are their genericness, this method hopefully solves that, keeps them balanced and fluffy and ultimately cuts down on FoC over-load which would've also been a problem.

I can understand your concerns, but hopefully you can see why I've made it as it is...

Yeah I've never understood why they hadn't put the marks for Daemons in the official codex. Such an easy yet elegant solution.

Thank you for the explanation. I probably should have just read the initial green text, though. You've definitely done a great job with the codex, and the Daemons are no exception. I'm just a ranting Daemons fanboy right now. I couldn't help it!

Bump.

... What?

Thsi looks really good. I will have to try and write a list and play test it.


Any chance of a PDF/Word doc format for DL?

Right, Changes have been made:

Most noticeable of which; I've added Chaos Renegades as a 'Legion' and reworded Legion to state Warbands and hopefully be a bit clearer.

I'm not quite entirely happy with the Renegades rules, but I'll see what you guys think.Thanks man, that would be greatly appreciated!



@Praxiss:

Yes, hopefully in the near future there will be, there's still some changes to be done to this version first, but yes, a PDF will likely be created at some point.

Thanks.

Am i reading it wrong or can Obliterators choose a gun from one list, then choose another gun from the second list instead of going into CC?

Nope, you're reading it correctly. I intended for it to potentially provide slightly more firepower but also render them vulnerable in close combat.

Obviously however, a PF can simply be chosen instead.

This is fantastically well written and seems pretty decent. I don't play chaos but I'd like to try play testing against somebody using this codex, just for a change.

Just Dave wrote:
3. Cypher the Fallen
a. WS 6/BS 6/S 4/T 4/W 2/I 5/A 3/Ld 10/3+4++
b. Unit Type: Independent Character (Unique).[/b]
i. Fearless, Stealth, Master Pistolier, Fallen, Unidentifiable.
ii. Master Crafted Bolt Pistol, Master Crafted Plasma Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Melta Bombs.
c. Master Pistolier – Cypher may fire both pistols in the same shooting phase. Furthermore in each turn, Cypher may either fire both pistols twice in the shooting phase or wield them in close combat, allowing him to fight with a Master Crafted Power Weapon. Cypher also counts as only ever firing one shot for the purposes of Gets Hot!.
d. Fallen – If in close combat against a unit from Codex: Dark Angels then Cypher, the unit of Chosen he is in and any Dark Angels Units in the same combat gain the Preferred Enemy USR.
e. Unidentifiable – Cypher can never be Captured or count as any Victory of Kill Points. Furthermore, Cypher cannot be singled out by any ranged attacks by special rules such as Mind War, Sergeant Telion’s Eye of Vengeance, Vindicare Assassins, etc.

This is amazing for a Dark Angels player and fan! Finally, some decent rules for him!!

For anyone interested, a PDF version is currently being constructed and I'll be sure to attach it when it's complete.

There will be some minor changes from the PDF version to what you see here, but nothing substantial.
As ever, all comments are welcome. Thanks.

You really made a HUGE and nice work here. I support it: for Chaos!!! ^^

A question: what about mixing warbands in a single army, about the special rules? I mix Iron Warriors and Death Guard.

Thank you man. I've tried to make that part as simple as I can without ruining it and hopefully it's explained fully in the OP, however basically, you would need 1 HQ choice for each Warband, then any units would be allocated as belonging to a certain warband and would gain that Warband's (and only that warbands) rules.

For example, if you had 2 Chaos Space Marine Squads and allocated one to Death Guard and one to Iron Warriors, then:

- ONLY the Iron Warriors one would have access to cheaper lascannons/multimeltas.
- ONLY the Death Guard one could get IoN for 5pts less and be affected by Death Guardian etc.

Thanks for the compliment, I hope that helps!

Thank you! I hope we'll see your ideas in the next CSM codex ^^

Can't wait to see the new .pdf form of the 'dex!

I'd love to see a more interactive digital codex sometime (from GW), one with a built-in army builder, preferably. But that's probably just another techie wet-dream of mine

One tiny thing I think should be added is that Chaos HQ:s of Tzeentch (maybe not DP:s) should be able to buy Inferno bolts. How does that sound? Otehrwise I like this very much, though I did find it entertaining when Hakanor was in the list.

I've been looking over the Army-wide Special Rules again, and I'm missing the -Ld modification. It would be reasonable if it was a simple -1 Ld, instead of an obviously overpowering -2, maybe to a minimum of 7 or something like that. It would require playtesting, but I think it has a lot more flavor than their second bonus which promotes MSUs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the .pdf, how are you organizing the Legions/Warbands? Are all of the specific abilities and upgrades going in the page intended for the legion itself, or should we expect something similar to what is seen in the forum?

Saintspirit wrote:One tiny thing I think should be added is that Chaos HQ:s of Tzeentch (maybe not DP:s) should be able to buy Inferno bolts. How does that sound? Otehrwise I like this very much, though I did find it entertaining when Hakanor was in the list.

Thank you man. I too liked Hakanor, however I do believe the latest DP dude has better character in terms of what he adds to the army. But Hakanor was a nice nod to the fluff IMHO. But hey, peoples opinions were recieved and Hakanor ditched...
As for the Doom Bolts, it's a good idea but I'm really not sure about it; I can't imagine it getting much use. Only the Lords and Champions would use it (Sorcerers have Doom Bolt for example) and I'm not sure it would add much...

crazypsyko666 wrote:I've been looking over the Army-wide Special Rules again, and I'm missing the -Ld modification. It would be reasonable if it was a simple -1 Ld, instead of an obviously overpowering -2, maybe to a minimum of 7 or something like that. It would require playtesting, but I think it has a lot more flavor than their second bonus which promotes MSUs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the .pdf, how are you organizing the Legions/Warbands? Are all of the specific abilities and upgrades going in the page intended for the legion itself, or should we expect something similar to what is seen in the forum?

Sorry Psyko, I'm unsure as to what you're referring to in your main comment? Of course, the feedback is appreciated, but I ideally need to know what you're giving feedback on!

As for the PDF. chances are it'll be similar to how it is in the forum, hopefully a bit clearer though, but I believe it would be far too unwieldy to have separate sections for each IMHO...

Oh, stupid me, I was referring to the Night Lords, of course. I enjoyed the way their terror tactics were represented in-game.

Also, have you read the third edition Chaos Codex?

Aaah, OK. Well, as you may have seen, I've changed it to 3D6 as I personally believe this to be fairer than -2 and still harsher than -1. As for the encouragement of MSU's, this is OK with me. Unlike Space Marines, CSM's cannot 'spam' Razorbacks, as such their is significantly less harm in MSU's. Furthermore, Night Lords are known for being a heavily depleted Legion who often fight in understrength squads, as shown in Soul Hunter.

And yes, I have.

That would make sense, and I'd definitely encourage playtesting and messing around blah blah blah encourage playtesting spiel.

It's a lovely book, ain't it?

As for the Doom Bolts, it's a good idea but I'm really not sure about it; I can't imagine it getting much use. Only the Lords and Champions would use it (Sorcerers have Doom Bolt for example) and I'm not sure it would add much...

No no, you misunderstand. I meant inferno bolts, the ammunition, not the psychic power doombolt. I figured that if the regular thousand sons had their bolters loaded with Inferno Bolts, then so would their leaders.

Sorry, I did infact understand but i wrote Doombolt instead of Inferno Bolts!
As I tried to say, I think INFERNO () Bolts is a good idea, however I can't imagine it being of much use. Sorcerers and DP's can use DOOMbolt and would therefore see comparatively little use for it, whilst I can't imagine Lords or Champions purchasing INFERNO Bolts as they don't really add much extra IMHO.

As I said, it's a nice idea, but I don't think it's really necessary due to how little I could see it adding...

Awesome work and effort on this Just Dave, will have to print out the rules and do a few test games for you asap.

Query with the Heretics option, which is a lovely idea btw, did you consider adding a Heretic Tank, Leman Russ probably with some kind of balancing disadvantage like a Looted Vehicle? To me that will allow even more of a hint of Traitor Guard marching alongside the CSM.

My other query was, any particular reason you went for Icons on the CSM squads over Marks. I know when the CSM book has been discussed before, Icons/Marks has often come up, and it is still the only thing that does my head in.

I'd rather pay more for a mark, than have a guy who takes the bonus if he dies and I know I wasn't the only one the last time we had one of those long CSM fail threads.

Seems okay. I don't really like what you did with kharne at all. You completely removed his ability to wreck face AND you raised his points for that reason? What?

The entire special character section is screwed up, IMO. You left ahriman completely useless at 230 points, and tyhpus is still overpriced, not to mention there's absolutely no reason to take lucius (Still) without a blissgiver. At least you gave most of them Eternal Warrior, which was the main problem with them.

Reading on...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay! After reading the whole thing, I love everything except kharne. You fixed basically everything I could imagine

One thing.... Could you let havocs take plasma cannons?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Awesome work and effort on this Just Dave, will have to print out the rules and do a few test games for you asap.

Query with the Heretics option, which is a lovely idea btw, did you consider adding a Heretic Tank, Leman Russ probably with some kind of balancing disadvantage like a Looted Vehicle? To me that will allow even more of a hint of Traitor Guard marching alongside the CSM.

My other query was, any particular reason you went for Icons on the CSM squads over Marks. I know when the CSM book has been discussed before, Icons/Marks has often come up, and it is still the only thing that does my head in.

I'd rather pay more for a mark, than have a guy who takes the bonus if he dies and I know I wasn't the only one the last time we had one of those long CSM fail threads.

Thanks Morathi, I really appreciate the compliments and feedback, it's nice for this to be getting some interest again. Any test games would be hugely appreciated man. Some of the rules have undergone changes in the PDF. but nothing major.

Ha! Actually, yes I did. I decided against it in the end as I wanted the heretics to remain an auxiliary type unit, so they were an addition to the army rather than a particularly large part. After all, this is Codex: Chaos Space Marines, not Codex: Renegades. I completely understand what you're saying and of course if you have a good enough argument for it, I may still add in heretic vehicles

I have been toying with removing the auxiliaries rule though, particularly after seeing Grey Knights and how you can make entire armies without... Grey Knights!

As for the Icons, I briefly went over this in the wargear section, but whilst the previous system was in many ways flawed, it still worked well in representing the gods and benefiting deep-strike and summoning. In the army special rules section, I've added a rule whereby the dude with the Icon can (optional) ultimately be the last guy of the unit removed; i.e. any wounds allocated him can be allocated to someone else in the unit (providing there are others left in the unit!). It's like you are saying, and what others have said, it's not like they'd forget which god they were supporting or that they wouldn't simply pick up the Icon.

Aside from fixing this part of it, I kept Icons to still benefit deepstriking and summoning and ultimately for ease of representation. Marks etc. have to be painted on and whatnot, whereas you can simply and quite plainly see which god a unit supports by the icon they're holding aloft. To me, this is even more important in unpainted armies!

Much like the heretics though, if you can provide a good enough argument, I'm happy to change the rules.

Thanks again Morathi, really appreciated man. If you'd prefer it, there's a link to my PDF (WiP) in the DCM forum. Cheers!

Samus_aran115 wrote:Seems okay. I don't really like what you did with kharne at all. You completely removed his ability to wreck face AND you raised his points for that reason? What?

The entire special character section is screwed up, IMO. You left ahriman completely useless at 230 points, and tyhpus is still overpriced, not to mention there's absolutely no reason to take lucius (Still) without a blissgiver. At least you gave most of them Eternal Warrior, which was the main problem with them.

Reading on...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay! After reading the whole thing, I love everything except kharne. You fixed basically everything I could imagine

One thing.... Could you let havocs take plasma cannons?

Thanks for the feedback Samus, I'm unsure from your auto-append post whether you still have issues with the other characters, all feedback (providing it's reasonable) is appreciated.

Nonetheless, I'd believe Kharn's better than he was before. He's gained eternal warrior and attacks equal to the number of models killed (included betrayed ), whilst yes, he's lost hitting on a 2+, that's all he's lost and he still has a copius amount of attacks and WS7 and now he can also take a powerfist to the face. Looking at it however, I will take his points costs down a bit, but if you could point out what's wrong with him, be my guest. Honestly.

As for letting Havocs take Plasma Cannons; Renegade havocs can (as can chosen and CSM's), but Plasma Cannons were not something available on infantry during the HH and that's why they've never been able to field plasma cannons.

Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, the only issue with the icons/Marks is the fact for the Daemons they are a key thing.

It's a tough one, I do wonder if there would be a way to still make Icons something a unit could take for summoning, and still be worth taking as well.
Maybe do the break ties in CC like Daemons have? I'll consider possibilities, and if anything comes to mind I'll raise it.
Although I do admit it is mainly a personal grumble, I can play the CSM with the rule anyway.

Regardless will have a go playtesting the list, and cheers for the note on the DCM thread, will print one out.

Awesome job, this is possibly the most unique codex I've seen (which isn't saying much, because I've only seen 3...)

Things I might change:
• Black legion being able to take every cult unit with no restriction seems a little OTT, maybe having it up the number to 2 or 3?
• perhaps making the fire frenzy say "Shoots at the nearest enemy unit in LoS twice, if no enemy units are in LoS (out of range counts as in LoS), then dread shoots at nearest friendly unit once." just to keep that little bit of 'I hope it doesn't kill me' mentality that the chaos codex seems to love

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Yeah, the only issue with the icons/Marks is the fact for the Daemons they are a key thing.

It's a tough one, I do wonder if there would be a way to still make Icons something a unit could take for summoning, and still be worth taking as well.
Maybe do the break ties in CC like Daemons have? I'll consider possibilities, and if anything comes to mind I'll raise it.
Although I do admit it is mainly a personal grumble, I can play the CSM with the rule anyway.

Regardless will have a go playtesting the list, and cheers for the note on the DCM thread, will print one out.

Thanks man, I'm thinking more and more about the Marks over Icons now actually. If I do use, I'd likely go for a basic mark with option icon (5pts) which allows summoning/deep-striking. I'll have to give it some more thought and any input on the idea would be appreciated, but I'm saving the rules/wargear in the PDF 'til last so it can be pondered on.
Also what do you mean by the break ties in CC with regards to daemons?

Thanks for the input Morathi, it's appreciated.
Wait... You're in Suffolk?! Where abouts? I didn't realise anyone else lived there!

Computer(Insan) wrote:Awesome job, this is possibly the most unique codex I've seen (which isn't saying much, because I've only seen 3...)

Things I might change:
• Black legion being able to take every cult unit with no restriction seems a little OTT, maybe having it up the number to 2 or 3?
• perhaps making the fire frenzy say "Shoots at the nearest enemy unit in LoS twice, if no enemy units are in LoS (out of range counts as in LoS), then dread shoots at nearest friendly unit once." just to keep that little bit of 'I hope it doesn't kill me' mentality that the chaos codex seems to love

Thanks man, it's appreciated.
I know what you mean about the Black Legion, but I think it should be OK considering it allows the player the most freedom, is no different from the current iteration and actually works counter-intuitive to the free IOCG on the CSM squads, as it encourages you to take both. I know what you mean, but personally I think it should be OK.
As for the Dreadnought, I have been considering that. I'll think about it a bit more and it would make sense. Good idea man, I'll give it some thought.

Cheers for all the feedback guys.

Rendlesham airbase, or what used to be it. Now just plain old Rendlesham, east of Ipswich.

It's what the location 'joke' thing is in my sidebar, the most renowned British UFO sighting happened here years ago.
What, a UFO sighting near what at the time was a fully active US airbase, I'm stunned.


As to the marks, yeah that might work, sorta what the cult troops do now.

The 'Daemon' thing is because I had a wierd feeling 40K daemons had the same advantage that musicians have in fantasy. Although it might just be my brain being scrambled with too many rulesets.


edit - oh and meant to say, have been working on a Heretics squad, once done I'll share a pic.

I really like what you did here, particularly with the warband rules. Nice to see the warband personalities manifest in a fluffy and useful way.
My only beef was that you didn't do anything with the existing chaos psychic powers, which I've always felt are a bit underwhelming when compared to the other dex's. I've always gotten the impression that chaos sorcerers, particularly the thousand sons, would have some of the most devastating powers in the 40k universe

I really like what you did with it. I don't play CSM but a codex like this would almost make me want to.
I wonder if you have gotten any feedback from real play time ...maybe even on Vassal?

I like your attention to both fluff and balance. I was working with a friend at a LGC to revise the numerous inconsistencies in the Tyranid codex (project is on hiatus atm). Its not a complete fandex revision, and we try to not make anything OTT. We have to make them small and simple enough for other players to accept them! However, I'm going to steal some of your methods and thinking that you used in developing this.

My only concern is that more options means more things that will potentially never be used, and more headaches in trying to balance it all. I know its almost impossible to prevent powergamers from gaming something. I think the one thing that irks WH players the most is when the competitive lists are not fluffy at all. I guess I'd like to see some real playtime feedback for final judgment

Just Dave wrote:
I have been toying with removing the auxiliaries rule though, particularly after seeing Grey Knights and how you can make entire armies without... Grey Knights!

I would definitely keep it..maybe even expand on it. I think its an elegant way to solve the problem of including "outside" allied forces..and still be fluffy and balanced. I would make it more flexible and more universal in its wording. A USR like this could be applied to Tau, Inquisition armies, and such

Heres a suggestion in its wording:

I borrowed the Tervigons "The Scuttling Horde" and Poisoned Weapon wording to make this. Again, the idea was to make it more universal and flexible. Not only can it now be used in other armies, but it can be used for units beyond Troops choices ( probably not HQ though...but the possibility is there). Now you can have your Renegade tanks and the like . With the inclusion of the variable fixed number, you can also modify it to more or less depending on balance and/or fluff concerns.

This is great! I was writing my own fandex for CSM, and then came across this, which blew mine out of the water.

Needless to say, my gaming group has already okay'd me using a fandex for my CSM, so I'll use this one!

If you don't have time to create a PDF, I can work on it.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Rendlesham airbase, or what used to be it. Now just plain old Rendlesham, east of Ipswich.

It's what the location 'joke' thing is in my sidebar, the most renowned British UFO sighting happened here years ago.
What, a UFO sighting near what at the time was a fully active US airbase, I'm stunned.


As to the marks, yeah that might work, sorta what the cult troops do now.

The 'Daemon' thing is because I had a wierd feeling 40K daemons had the same advantage that musicians have in fantasy. Although it might just be my brain being scrambled with too many rulesets.


edit - oh and meant to say, have been working on a Heretics squad, once done I'll share a pic.

Feck me! Rendlesham?! That's about 20 mins from my parents, if that. That's really cool to hear tbh, I've never met anyone on Dakka who's from Suffolk. To be fair though, the aliens comment may be more appropriate for Norfolk.

I wouldn't know about the Daemons thing to be honest; not my forte. However, I'll still consider the Marks thing; would make the points costing more awkward, but it would enable me to remove a special rule etc. and it could allow Combat Squads in renegade armies. Hmmm... Will have to think about it. More...

Thanks again for the feedback Morathi.

Tortoiseer wrote:I really like what you did here, particularly with the warband rules. Nice to see the warband personalities manifest in a fluffy and useful way.
My only beef was that you didn't do anything with the existing chaos psychic powers, which I've always felt are a bit underwhelming when compared to the other dex's. I've always gotten the impression that chaos sorcerers, particularly the thousand sons, would have some of the most devastating powers in the 40k universe

Thanks man, appreciate it and your criticism. I know what you mean about the powers, particularly with the power which many of the recent codices have, I tried to be very careful about not making things over-powered, however judging my the feedback I could well up them a bit, I'll get back with a post of potential methods, but any suggestions is welcome thanks.

Tongue wrote:I really like what you did with it. I don't play CSM but a codex like this would almost make me want to.
I wonder if you have gotten any feedback from real play time ...maybe even on Vassal?

I like your attention to both fluff and balance. I was working with a friend at a LGC to revise the numerous inconsistencies in the Tyranid codex (project is on hiatus atm). Its not a complete fandex revision, and we try to not make anything OTT. We have to make them small and simple enough for other players to accept them! However, I'm going to steal some of your methods and thinking that you used in developing this.

My only concern is that more options means more things that will potentially never be used, and more headaches in trying to balance it all. I know its almost impossible to prevent powergamers from gaming something. I think the one thing that irks WH players the most is when the competitive lists are not fluffy at all. I guess I'd like to see some real playtime feedback for final judgment

Just Dave wrote:
I have been toying with removing the auxiliaries rule though, particularly after seeing Grey Knights and how you can make entire armies without... Grey Knights!

I would definitely keep it..maybe even expand on it. I think its an elegant way to solve the problem of including "outside" allied forces..and still be fluffy and balanced. I would make it more flexible and more universal in its wording. A USR like this could be applied to Tau, Inquisition armies, and such

Heres a suggestion in its wording:

Spoiler:

Auxiliary

You can include one Auxiliary unit in your army for every fixed number of non-Auxiliary units taken (usually indicated in brackets) of the same force organization category as the Auxiliary unit.

Example: A Heretic unit has Auxiliary [2] and is a Troops choice. You may choose to take one Heretic unit for every two non-Auxiliary Troops units taken, such as a Khorne Berserker unit and a Chaos Space Marine unit. You may take two Heretic units, if you include four non-Auxillary Troop choices in your army.

I borrowed the Tervigons "The Scuttling Horde" and Poisoned Weapon wording to make this. Again, the idea was to make it more universal and flexible. Not only can it now be used in other armies, but it can be used for units beyond Troops choices ( probably not HQ though...but the possibility is there). Now you can have your Renegade tanks and the like . With the inclusion of the variable fixed number, you can also modify it to more or less depending on balance and/or fluff concerns.

Thank you, I appreciate the feedback. Whilst I don't intend to go quite that route for the wording of auxilliaries, that's definitely a good idea and I'll try and change the wording to suite that, thanks.

Good luck with the Tyranid re-write, god knows they need it and I applaud you for trying it.

I'll keep the auxiliary rule however, as you suggested.
Conversantly however, in making the fandex I've been trying to add character where I can in order to try and separate it more from the existing SM codex. I completely agree that it means some stuff wont be used, but I think as one of the common complaints is that they are simply 'spikey marines' it may be worth it. At the end of this post, I'll list what I've added/removed so far in the fandex so you can see for yourself, but I was certainly reluctant about making it too different or have too many special rules due to my wanting it to be a 'proper' codex as it were. I completely agree with what you're saying of course, however I think the balance is still OK for now at least...

I completely (COMPLETELY) agree with you in regards to the min-maxing thing (eg. Razorbacks/Mech Vet), which I've been sincerely trying to avoid. I don't think it's too easy to do however, especially not like in other Codices at least. You are more than welcome to try and abuse any army-list making and I will too as it is also a genuine concern for me too, but I struggle to see where min/maxing is entirely possible...

Thanks for the feedback.

Keatonic wrote:This is great! I was writing my own fandex for CSM, and then came across this, which blew mine out of the water.

Needless to say, my gaming group has already okay'd me using a fandex for my CSM, so I'll use this one!

If you don't have time to create a PDF, I can work on it.

Thank you very much mate, it's appreciated. You are of course welcome to use it and if you want I can PM you the WiP PDF if you'd rather use that? Thanks.
I just noticed the link in your signature too! Ha! Cheers man, I really appreciate that. SERIOUSLY!

----

As it stands, the changes made in the PDF. version are:
- Abaddon boosts nearby unit morale rather than reduces enemy. MAY possible make all termies in the same army Champions or something similar.
- Raptors can now only take Melta/flamer/grenade/plasma on one in 5 guys, however they may now select a power weapon (15pts) under the above circumstances.
- Predator has access to flamer weaponry
- Chaos Spawn have fleet.
- Ahriman can use one Tome (on himself) per turn.
- Any unit of 5 Terminators that consists of entirely champions (which is now a 10pts upgrade) may select a gift of chaos for certain pts.
- May change the Hellfire cannon to AP D6+1? (Available on Khornate defiler and Predator turret)
- Dreadnoughts will fire frenzy on allies if there are no eligible enemy units.
- Hell Talon's Lascannon's are twin-linked.

All feedback on these possible changes are also welcome of course.

----

Thank you everyone for all the feedback, I can't say how much I appreciate it, but rest assured, it's a LOT. ALL constructive criticism is welcome as I'm trying to make this as good as I can and all positive feedback and playtesting is welcome as it motivates me no-end. Thank you very much everyone. I sincerely appreciate the support.
Dave.

Hello all other supporters!

I've compiled a PDF version that Dave has given me permission to post! It's got everything in the first post, laid out like a traditional codex, if a little cramped.

Feel free to download it and give my PDF-Making Skills critique, lol.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6626237/Just%20Dave%27s%205e%20CSM%20Codex.pdf



Also, for anyone who uses BattleScribe (I very much recommend it! It's a free, open source army builder!) I'm going to make a catalog file that you can use to make a list on your computer.

Just Dave wrote:

Tortoiseer wrote:I really like what you did here, particularly with the warband rules. Nice to see the warband personalities manifest in a fluffy and useful way.
My only beef was that you didn't do anything with the existing chaos psychic powers, which I've always felt are a bit underwhelming when compared to the other dex's. I've always gotten the impression that chaos sorcerers, particularly the thousand sons, would have some of the most devastating powers in the 40k universe

Thanks man, appreciate it and your criticism. I know what you mean about the powers, particularly with the power which many of the recent codices have, I tried to be very careful about not making things over-powered, however judging my the feedback I could well up them a bit, I'll get back with a post of potential methods, but any suggestions is welcome thanks.

Dave.[/b][/u]

Well, I think your tome idea is a good start but I think that they don't go far enough. Chaos powers should feel suitably more, well, chaotic. More high risk, high reward than other dex's powers as is in keeping with the high price their sorcerers pay in order to command the essence of the warp and its denizens.
So I always though that it would be a neat mechanic if all chaos psykers had the option to impose penalties or additonal dangers on their impending psychic test in exchange for increasing the lethality of the spell. For example they might have to test with a negative LD modifier and/or increase the chances they might suffer perils.

Having multiple levels of such risk/reward combos would make it even more interesting (I think two additional levels is ideal). Each spell entry in the codex could list its profile and then have the two, more dangerous levels, listed beneath with the adjusted profiles. A more risky version of doombolt could ramp up the number of shots and increase the strength or range. Advanced versions of warptime might grants bonus attacks or increase the users initiative. Winds of chaos could be boosted to 3+ to wound, etc.
To reflect the great skill of a sorcerer like Ahriman (and the fact he's got the book of magnus), he could perhaps cast high level spells with lower level penalties

Anyways, sorry to hit you with all that. Its just something I've thought might help give sorcerers their edge back.

There is no stat listing for the Reaper Autocannon in the .pdf.

crazypsyko666 wrote:There is no stat listing for the Reaper Autocannon in the .pdf.

That would mean it was not in the main post, I believe.

I'll look again, and if I don't see it I'll add the GW Codex version.

Thanks for the heads up!

I didn't reference the statistics for weapons that didn't change.

For example, the Reaper Autocannon didn't change so I didn't list it, whereas the Sonic Blaster did, so I listed it.

I'll edit the OP to include Keatonic's lovely PDF. later and I shall reply to specific posts and emails later too, as I'm a bit busy atm.

Thanks again, particularly to the incredibly generous Keatonic.

To address psychic powers and bring them uptodate.

1. Sorcerers do not pay for powers. They chose them for free. Can cast 1 per turn. 2 if Tzeentch. For 50 pts the sorcerer can cast 2 per turn. 3 if Tzeentch.

2. Demon princes can cast spells but must pay for them.

3. Sorcerers have an added psychic defence. Call it Conduit of Chaos. The effect is that due to the sorcerer being an essence of the warp, any doubles rolled when performing a psychic test result in a perils of the warp test for the opponent. While not as powerful as a psychic hood or rune staff in negating an opponent's psychic tests. It should be a deterrent going from a 1 in 18 chance of a perils test to a 1 in 6 chance of a perils test.

Overall, while leaving the demon prince as a buff MC that can cast spells, it restores a reason to play a chaos sorcerer being cheaper and providing some passive defense.

Tortoiseer wrote:
Well, I think your tome idea is a good start but I think that they don't go far enough. Chaos powers should feel suitably more, well, chaotic. More high risk, high reward than other dex's powers as is in keeping with the high price their sorcerers pay in order to command the essence of the warp and its denizens.
So I always though that it would be a neat mechanic if all chaos psykers had the option to impose penalties or additonal dangers on their impending psychic test in exchange for increasing the lethality of the spell. For example they might have to test with a negative LD modifier and/or increase the chances they might suffer perils.

Having multiple levels of such risk/reward combos would make it even more interesting (I think two additional levels is ideal). Each spell entry in the codex could list its profile and then have the two, more dangerous levels, listed beneath with the adjusted profiles. A more risky version of doombolt could ramp up the number of shots and increase the strength or range. Advanced versions of warptime might grants bonus attacks or increase the users initiative. Winds of chaos could be boosted to 3+ to wound, etc.
To reflect the great skill of a sorcerer like Ahriman (and the fact he's got the book of magnus), he could perhaps cast high level spells with lower level penalties

Anyways, sorry to hit you with all that. Its just something I've thought might help give sorcerers their edge back.

That's absolutely fine man and I agree with what you're saying. I'm really trying to avoid going to over the top, so something like various levels of power may be a bit much for my liking, however I do agree that the powers need ramping up a bit, particularly if you compare it to the modern Codices.

I'm wondering about a simple change where a Sorcerer (or Prince I guess?) can double the rate of fire for their Psychic attack (albeit this means its only applicable for certain attacks) but suffers PotW on any roll of a double. If under their leadership it's still cast as normal. This can significantly increase damage output, but at risk. It's just what I thought up of now, but it fits with your suggestion of risk/reward and is nice and simple. Potentially, any Sorcerer that dies due to PotW could turn into a spawn also?

I'm also wondering about buffing certain powers too, in order to make it more in line with the power of some Codices in 5th edition. Namely:

- Warptime should be fine as-is. Difficult to change too.
- Gift/Power of Chaos will still instant remove the model, but would benefit from the improved Spawn. Also, would take effect on EQUAL to or higher the targets toughness (I can't recall if this is the case already or not)
- Aggressive Defence could either become -3Ld or stay the same(?)
- Chaos Theory = D6+4 strength or stays the same?
- Doom Bolt stays as is or becomes Str5?
- Winds stays as is, but also penetrates vehicles on a 3+?
- Warp Rift stays as is
- Bolt of Change becomes Lance or Str9 lance? (can't recall what the Zoanthrope's power's like...)
- Nurgles Rot becomes within 12" or is changed to large blast (on model) with poisoned 2+?
- LoS stays as is?
- Warp Flare becomes AP4

What would be your thought on these?
As I've said, I'm very reluctant on making them overpowered however, bearing in mind that Tomes can also take effect on some places etc.
As for Ahriman, he can now benefit from Tomes himself, auto-casts powers and can cast 3 per turn; I think he's pretty powerful now?

Thanks for the feedback Tortoiseer!

DAaddict wrote:To address psychic powers and bring them uptodate.

1. Sorcerers do not pay for powers. They chose them for free. Can cast 1 per turn. 2 if Tzeentch. For 50 pts the sorcerer can cast 2 per turn. 3 if Tzeentch.

2. Demon princes can cast spells but must pay for them.

3. Sorcerers have an added psychic defence. Call it Conduit of Chaos. The effect is that due to the sorcerer being an essence of the warp, any doubles rolled when performing a psychic test result in a perils of the warp test for the opponent. While not as powerful as a psychic hood or rune staff in negating an opponent's psychic tests. It should be a deterrent going from a 1 in 18 chance of a perils test to a 1 in 6 chance of a perils test.

Overall, while leaving the demon prince as a buff MC that can cast spells, it restores a reason to play a chaos sorcerer being cheaper and providing some passive defense.

Well, in terms of buffing the powers, I've addressed this slightly with response to Tortoiseer. However, I don't know if you've looked, but 1 and 2 is already the case under my Codex (except casting 2 per turn is 40pts) and in regards to 3, Sorcerers now have Psychic hoods and come with powers for free, meaning that they are significantly different from Greater Daemons (noticeably in points costs) and also have some psychic defence.

Well, if it's going to be in the codex, I'd reccomend giving it a listing at some point. This IS a WIP, but it shouldn't be a supplementary to its own book.

With my PDF. which I'm still going to make (with help from Keatonic's PDF), I'll include a wargear section (but not fluff), so mine will basically be intended to be everything you need to play a game.
However, this is still a fair while off (June time I'd expect) and Keatonic has still done a brilliant and generous job and personally, I can remember pretty much all the points costs etc. from the codex, let alone weapon statistics.
Reaper AC = Range 36", Str 7, AP 4, Twin-linked, assault 2. But that's just me...


Keep the feedback coming guys!

Will do! I'm just error reporting, (I used to test software plugins at my parent's IT section of the company, habits habits).

Amongst other possible changes and re-writes being done in my PDF version, which is progressing nicely, I have 2 fairly significant re-writes I'd like peoples opinions on and another proposed piece of wargear:

First - Changing Icons to Marks

One of the first changes I'm considering is to change Icons to Marks and allow all units to access a personal icon. This shouldn't have a significant effect in-game, but it should help with the simplification of things by removing the Icons ruling whereby the bearer is the last to be removed. Judging by GW Codices, simplification whilst keeping customisation seems to be a big thing and I think this should help achieve it.
The only real flaws I can see coming from this are the increased difficulty in representing in-game (for example, you can clearly see an Icon being held by the squad, a mark less so) and that it could complicate points costs, but that's for me to worry about.

Furthermore, as an effect of this, Renegade Warbands would be able to form combat squads.


Second - Re-writing the Warband/Legion rules

Another change I'm considering implementing is to change the warband rules, so that rather than you having to choose a warband for each HQ, Icons of [insert warband here] would become (free) options for HQ units. Then, any other unit in the army can be given an Icon/Emblem/whatever of their legion/warband as well. Whilst the effects won't change, this should further help simplify things.
In effect, if a Lord chooses (for example), the Icon of the Iron Warriors Legion, then any unit can be given the same Icon in order to benefit from the normal rules (i.e. Free Meltaguns/Lascannons), rather than simply being allocated. This also shouldn't be too big a change, but should smooth things up a bit.


Finally - A piece of wargear; Gift from the Gods
This would work something along the lines of being a 5pts option for any champion or independent character (except those that are unique of course) and conferring effects along the following lines:

Pre-deployment roll a D6 for each model with a Gift from the Gods (name pending ), the result corresponds with the effects below:

1 - the model is turned into/replaced by a Chaos Spawn
2 - No effect.
3 - The model recieves D3 extra attacks in each assault phase.
4 - The model becomes a Psyker, able to select (and cast) a single Psychic Power
5 - The model recieves the preferred enemy USR
6 - The model may re-roll all armour saves.


--------

Feedback on any of these ideas would be really appreciated thanks.

Took a few days longer to sort than I'd hoped, but here's my first Heretic unit. Hope you're a fan just Dave, going try them out on the tabletop soon.

Wow. They look really nice Morathi, I can't wait to see them painted up. The guy far-right looks almost like he's wielding a pitch-fork, or maybe that's my suffolkness coming back?

Ah yeah, three knife blades strapped to the gun so he can leave a favoured mark in his victims.

Holy Pwnsauce Batman!! I love the Codex dude keep up the good work. I'm definitely on board with the warband oriented special rules and unit limitations, helps keep people honest and fluffy. Maybe if we are lucky GWS will come through with Legion specific codices.


Did have one thing I'd like to point out, though..

Daemon Prince - 270 pts

Daemon weapon, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch (Warptime), Daemonic Speed

This is a 4 wound model, T5 3+/4+ that can charge 18", assault at initiative 10 with at 'least' six attacks and as many as 12, with rerolls if the power goes off. For the points, all of that might even be okay..

The sticker here is between Warptime and the volume of attacks, the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon's rule of rending through invulnerable saves becomes terribly powerful. This guy can drop Kaldor Draigo (4w Eternal Warrior 3+ invul) before he even gets to reply. He absolutely owns close combat. I'd take this fella over Abaddon every time, and he is no push over.

It's not a big deal, but to dot the i's a bit.

In the pdf the Land Raider has 'assault vehicle' while the LR Marauder has 'assault ramp'.

Thanks for the comments guys, I apologise for a lack of replies of late - been very busy, but I should have much more time now. Also, any outstanding emails should be answered soon. Cheers!

Boneblade wrote:Holy Pwnsauce Batman!! I love the Codex dude keep up the good work. I'm definitely on board with the warband oriented special rules and unit limitations, helps keep people honest and fluffy. Maybe if we are lucky GWS will come through with Legion specific codices.


Did have one thing I'd like to point out, though..

Daemon Prince - 270 pts

Daemon weapon, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch (Warptime), Daemonic Speed

This is a 4 wound model, T5 3+/4+ that can charge 18", assault at initiative 10 with at 'least' six attacks and as many as 12, with rerolls if the power goes off. For the points, all of that might even be okay..

The sticker here is between Warptime and the volume of attacks, the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon's rule of rending through invulnerable saves becomes terribly powerful. This guy can drop Kaldor Draigo (4w Eternal Warrior 3+ invul) before he even gets to reply. He absolutely owns close combat. I'd take this fella over Abaddon every time, and he is no push over.

Thanks for the feedback, you make a really good point. I'm not too sure he'd over-power Draigo, however you definitely have a point. I'm unsure what to change however; I think the 4+ is pretty fair IMHO and Initiative 10 may be overpowered, yet it doesn't seem a problem with the likes of Banshees and quicksilver. It may need a change, but I'm unsure how I'd change it. However, from the point you've raised and how GW are seemingly moving away from ignoring invulnerable saves, I think the Daemon Weapon needs a change.

I think they may warrant 50pts on a DP and I'm wondering how to change the MoT Daemon Weapon; possibly making it rending 4+ or on a to-wound roll of 6 places a blast template? I'm unsure however, but very good point. Thank you, it's very constructive.

TiB wrote:It's not a big deal, but to dot the i's a bit.

In the pdf the Land Raider has 'assault vehicle' while the LR Marauder has 'assault ramp'.

Thanks man, that's the same in my version on here and in the PDF a Chaos Champion is also down as a monstrous creature. However, in my PDF this has been changed so they're both assault vehicles. Thanks nonetheless, but this is more of a problem for Keatonic who made the PDF, whilst mine's still under constriction. Cheers.

The definite good side to what you are trying to do in this fandex is the return to options / variety for Chaos units which made the previous editions so fun. But that doesn't mean Chaos should be able to do what everyone else can - like Banshees for example. You gotta come up with something special, something that feels appropriately Chaos and at the same time doesn't blatantly steal from other units or codices. Instead of Daemonic Speed (which is a steal) making you strike at Init 10, maybe turn it into Fleet, or Move Through Cover or something.

As far as the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon goes, I honestly think the original codex had it fine. Str 4 ap 3 d6 shooting attacks is a nice increase to any model's normal shooting ability. It might not be as important to a Daemon Prince as it would be to a Chaos Lord, but still isn't worthless. And giving a DP those extra d6 attacks (being Monstrous) is pretty much worth the points by itself, before any cult-specific abilities. I regularly run a 175 pt Winged Warptime Tzeentch Prince that works wonders - giving him an extra d6 attacks in combo with rerolls and +d6 armor pen would just be sick. On top of that give me d6 ap 3 shooting at BS 5? BONUS.

But the point of a Fandex is to be creative and different, so just leaving it the way it has always been may not be your thing. Which is totally cool and up to you. You are the author and you are doing great as far as I am concerned. With a little balance testing I'd buy your codex over any piece of crap Matt Ward comes up with. Good luck man.

This might seem like a stupid point, but since the Emperor's Children were originally close combat/ short range specialists, couldn't you give them a sound based ccw?

Echo Blade, maybe, counting as a power weapon alone but negating AS and IS if armed with a pair.

Durza wrote:This might seem like a stupid point, but since the Emperor's Children were originally close combat/ short range specialists, couldn't you give them a sound based ccw?

Echo Blade, maybe, counting as a power weapon alone but negating AS and IS if armed with a pair.

Interesting idea... What do you mean by 'AS' and 'IS'?
I never heard of Emperors Children being a close combat orientated Legion, they aspired to be experts of all fields of war but the natural specialisation of astartes is close-range...

Boneblade wrote:The definite good side to what you are trying to do in this fandex is the return to options / variety for Chaos units which made the previous editions so fun. But that doesn't mean Chaos should be able to do what everyone else can - like Banshees for example. You gotta come up with something special, something that feels appropriately Chaos and at the same time doesn't blatantly steal from other units or codices. Instead of Daemonic Speed (which is a steal) making you strike at Init 10, maybe turn it into Fleet, or Move Through Cover or something.

Oh, I agree. But then again, this is only costed at 3pts for Eldar! Nonetheless, I agree with what you're saying about the initiative 10 thing needing changing, however Move Through Cover and Fleet were both things that crossed my mind, but these would have no effect on someone that's part of a unit (eg. Lord/Sorcerer). Maybe a simple initiative bonus rather than 10? Or ignoring the effects of cover when attacking?

As far as the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon goes, I honestly think the original codex had it fine. Str 4 ap 3 d6 shooting attacks is a nice increase to any model's normal shooting ability. It might not be as important to a Daemon Prince as it would be to a Chaos Lord, but still isn't worthless. And giving a DP those extra d6 attacks (being Monstrous) is pretty much worth the points by itself, before any cult-specific abilities. I regularly run a 175 pt Winged Warptime Tzeentch Prince that works wonders - giving him an extra d6 attacks in combo with rerolls and +d6 armor pen would just be sick. On top of that give me d6 ap 3 shooting at BS 5? BONUS.

I'm reluctant to make it a shooting weapon tbh as... well... it's not. I may do so however for the sake of balance, but tbh I'm kind of reluctant to...
I know what you're saying though, the potential bonuses of a Daemon Weapon to a Daemon Prince can be... impressive, to say the least. I originally kept the points the same as they Princes don't gain from the power-weapon status, however I agree with what you're saying so I'll up the cost suitably.
However, as you know, his points cost can really rack up, the increased cost of a Daemon Weapon may be enough to balance it, along with whatever changes occur with the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon.

But the point of a Fandex is to be creative and different, so just leaving it the way it has always been may not be your thing. Which is totally cool and up to you. You are the author and you are doing great as far as I am concerned. With a little balance testing I'd buy your codex over any piece of crap Matt Ward comes up with. Good luck man.

thanks, it's partially intended to be a fully fledged (but not legal) replacement for the CSM Codex as is and my general intentions were to provide the balance between the character of 3.5, but the balance and simplicity of 4th edition Chaos Codices...
Cheers.

What do you mean by 'AS' and 'IS'?

I'm guessing Armour Saves and Invulnerable Saves. But I don't really see why a soundsword would negate invulnerable saves.

Yeah, Armour and Invulnerable saves. I'm just taking the thought of negating invulnerable saves from Eidilon killing the Warsinger in Fulgrim by negating her powers with a Warp Scream, and the Echo Blades could amplify those powers.

I never heard of Emperors Children being a close combat orientated Legion, they aspired to be experts of all fields of war but the natural specialisation of astartes is close-range...

From what I remember, the first company specialised in close combat and the second were short range shooters, later becoming the first Noise Marines.

I love the idea of having a sound based close combat weapon, however i have to ask, how the feth do you take an armour save against sound? the sonic shooting weapons should perhaps be lower strength but with a much better ap, sonic shockwaves move FASTER through solids than air, so armour is actually going to manify the damage dealt irl if these existed, furthur more why not have a strenght bonus against better armour save models, to allow for this? make them slightly more expensive but add a whole new dynamic to the game.

TiB wrote:

What do you mean by 'AS' and 'IS'?

I'm guessing Armour Saves and Invulnerable Saves. But I don't really see why a soundsword would negate invulnerable saves.

Durza wrote:Yeah, Armour and Invulnerable saves. I'm just taking the thought of negating invulnerable saves from Eidilon killing the Warsinger in Fulgrim by negating her powers with a Warp Scream, and the Echo Blades could amplify those powers.

I never heard of Emperors Children being a close combat orientated Legion, they aspired to be experts of all fields of war but the natural specialisation of astartes is close-range...

From what I remember, the first company specialised in close combat and the second were short range shooters, later becoming the first Noise Marines.

Aaaah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. Well, Eidolon's killing of the Warsinger was more akin to a Doom Siren I felt. Nonetheless, GW appears to be moving away from weaponry that ignores invulnerable saves, so I'm going to avoid such weapons (the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon will be changed too) that ignore invulnerable saves...

Nice idea, if you can refine it a bit further I'm all ears...

Well, IIRC the first company was simply the 1st company, therefore having access to the best goodies and weaponry (e.g. Termie armour) which I figure would naturally lead them to be orientated in close combat, as it would be with all the Legions? It doesn't really suggest this to be the case with the rest of the Legion either IMHO.

Tyranic Marta wrote:I love the idea of having a sound based close combat weapon, however i have to ask, how the feth do you take an armour save against sound? the sonic shooting weapons should perhaps be lower strength but with a much better ap, sonic shockwaves move FASTER through solids than air, so armour is actually going to manify the damage dealt irl if these existed, furthur more why not have a strenght bonus against better armour save models, to allow for this? make them slightly more expensive but add a whole new dynamic to the game.

Well, actually most bullets - particularly in modern rifles it seems - move faster than the speed of sound, this may be different with say a Boltshell as it's a much larger projectile fired by a fictional gun, but nonetheless, the question remains...

I agree with what you're saying and how realistically Power Armour probably shouldn't negate soundwaves and I did originally consider making Sonic Blasters Str 2, AP 2 but decided against it in the end for balance issues and the limited use of a strength 2 or 3 weapon for example. The current sonic weaponry excels at anti-infantry and I decided to keep it the same with my Codex, but due to the RoF it can also work well against MeQ's and the like...

why not keep them strength 4, make them ap3 and make them 10-15 ppm?

Because then you've effectively got different Thousand Sons IMHO...

at least give them their ap5 back

Just Dave wrote:Aaaah, OK. Thanks for the clarification. Well, Eidolon's killing of the Warsinger was more akin to a Doom Siren I felt. Nonetheless, GW appears to be moving away from weaponry that ignores invulnerable saves, so I'm going to avoid such weapons (the Tzeentch Daemon Weapon will be changed too) that ignore invulnerable saves...

Nice idea, if you can refine it a bit further I'm all ears...

Well, IIRC the first company was simply the 1st company, therefore having access to the best goodies and weaponry (e.g. Termie armour) which I figure would naturally lead them to be orientated in close combat, as it would be with all the Legions? It doesn't really suggest this to be the case with the rest of the Legion either IMHO.

Tyranic Marta wrote:I love the idea of having a sound based close combat weapon, however i have to ask, how the feth do you take an armour save against sound? the sonic shooting weapons should perhaps be lower strength but with a much better ap, sonic shockwaves move FASTER through solids than air, so armour is actually going to manify the damage dealt irl if these existed, furthur more why not have a strenght bonus against better armour save models, to allow for this? make them slightly more expensive but add a whole new dynamic to the game.

Well, actually most bullets - particularly in modern rifles it seems - move faster than the speed of sound, this may be different with say a Boltshell as it's a much larger projectile fired by a fictional gun, but nonetheless, the question remains...

I agree with what you're saying and how realistically Power Armour probably shouldn't negate soundwaves and I did originally consider making Sonic Blasters Str 2, AP 2 but decided against it in the end for balance issues and the limited use of a strength 2 or 3 weapon for example. The current sonic weaponry excels at anti-infantry and I decided to keep it the same with my Codex, but due to the RoF it can also work well against MeQ's and the like...

The first, third and eleventh companies definitely specialised in close combat, and the captian of the first didn't wear Terminator Armour after the Heresy. Not sure if he did before then.
@Tyranic Marta, sound waves can be reflected off solids when moving into them from air, which would mean armour could possibly stop it from long distances. Going straight into a solid, there wouldn't be a chance of armour stopping sound, which is why echo blades would give no armour save. Possibly have Sonic Blasters AP6 at max range, reducing it by one for every 4" they are within that, so it would be AP2 at 4 inches.

On the echo blades, maybe for every echo blade in the unit, there is a chance the enemy is disorientated by them and can't attack back, eg for one, on a six they can't attack back, with two, they can't attack back if you roll five or six etc.

Thanks for the clarification, it sounds like a great idea, but for the vibraswords, make it that each model with a sword can designate one model in base contact who he is making disoriented and on a 5 the opponent loses one attack on a 6 he may not swing at all

I hate to nit-pick but the PDF file isn't loading at all for me, and I would love it so I could print it off :s

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:I hate to nit-pick but the PDF file isn't loading at all for me, and I would love it so I could print it off :s

Not sure why... Just tried it and it was fine.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6626237/Just%20Dave%27s%205e%20CSM%20Codex.pdf

(Maybe Dropbox was down?)

ALSO, I've caught a few errors in the PDF, so I'm going to fix them when I have time. For example, it says greater daemons have a squad size of 5-10, which is NOT RIGHT. Lol. They're 0-1.

Tyranic Marta wrote:Thanks for the clarification, it sounds like a great idea, but for the vibraswords, make it that each model with a sword can designate one model in base contact who he is making disoriented and on a 5 the opponent loses one attack on a 6 he may not swing at all

I think it'd have to be an attack from the unit as a whole rather than one, since it'd make more sense if it was the person the Noise Marine was fighting at the time that would be getting the full blast. But since you can't designate specific members of a unit (except Independent Characters) it could end up that that guy with a ccw loses two attacks, while the leader of the unit swings his magic Imperium sword five times... Perhaps it'd work better if it could disorientate the whole enemy unit on the first round of combat only, then they function as power swords for the remainder of combat, unless another enemy unit joined the combat, in which case they could be disorientated too.

Echo Blades: Echo Blades are treated as power weapons, but grant a +2 attack bonus instead of +1 if a model is armed with a pair. When a Noise Marine unit with at least one Echo Blade assaults an enemy unit, the enemy unit cannot attack back in the first round of combat on a roll of 5 or 6. Add +1 to the roll for every additional Echo Blade in the unit. When a Noise Marine unit with at least one Echo Blade is assaulted by an enemy unit, that unit strikes at Initiative 1 during the first round of combat on a roll of 5 or 6. Add +1 to the roll for every additional Echo Blade in the unit.

Well, whilst I appreciate the contributions, I'm reluctant to include such an idea unless there's a variant for each of the four gods, to try and avoid imbalance in terms of options and/or preference.
I'd also question the proposed cost of such a weapon. When a weapon can add an additional attack as well as preventing the enemy from attacking altogether (or at In1), I'd expect it to cost a significant amount, particularly if it's a Power Weapon on top of this for example?

20ppm i think, look at a weapon like a thunderhammer for most MeQ races, double strength power weapon, next turn if they are still alive enemy fights at I1, and dont throw the I 1 swings from the thunderhammer bs at me, theres a reason why entire terminator squads can be equipped with them

Right here's a treat for you'll. I've attached my PDF version of the final codex.

Please remember that it's WiP. There's some things that will be changed and obviously it's not finished. It should however give you an idea of the updates I've made to it, the general format for the final product (the format for the army list section is pretty much definite however, thanks Majortom), some things that are set to be changed but will hopefully a clearer idea of the final product.

As ever, all C+C is welcome, as are any proof-reading corrections or suggestions etc. Hope you like it!

Dave.

Right, small update of goings on.

The (Dreadnought) siege hammer has been changed to work as a chainfist effectively - I thought AP1 wasn't worth 10pts.

The (Dreadnought) Scourge Claw - also currently 10pts however I'm unsure about this one's balance - causes the Dread to strike at its base Str6 (but ignoring saves) and allows it to allocate a single attack on all enemies in base contact, as well as its usual attacks. This may seem a but OTT, but this is 10pts extra from a standard DCCW and losing Str10 is pretty significant. As I said however, I'm kind of unsure about this.

Khorne Bezerkers may have a rule whereby they have Rage if there isn't a IC or Skull Champion in the unit - I'm unsure about balancing if Chainaxes stay as they are; 22pts seems a bit too cheap, but I want them to be better than they are currently.

Currently researching the various types of close combat weaponry (in the real world) as I might add another Chaos-exclusive weapon.

Gift of the Gods (my PDF) works as its stated on page 3(?) except that preferred enemy becomes +1 base strength and MoK re-rolls if it gets Psychic Power.

If you really want every cult unit to have a variant, even though Noise Marines are easily the least used, then Berserkers would get their Chainaxe upgrade back, a two handed weapon that always hits on 3+ or better and adds +1S, Plague Marines can have 4+ poisoned weapons and the Rubric Marine aspiring sorcerer can upgrade his force weapon to allow him to re-roll Psychic tests (though Inferno rounds seem to do enough for them as is). I really think that the Echo Blades would just give a use to the +1 Initiative of the MoS, otherwise +1 BS would be more useful.

Tell you what Durza, if you PM me what it is exactly you're suggesting (eg. Power Weapon? 1 hand? effects? etc.) and I'll look into it...

Sorry, I'm being a bit of an ass amn't I?

No, it's fine, I'd just rather discuss such an idea in PM rather than having everyones suggested additions floating around in the thread.

I personally think the rules are coming along fantastic. Can't wait to see the finished product, mate!

Thanks man, I'd be happy to email you the latest PDF should you ever want me too. Hope you're OK man.

----

As ever, all suggestions and C+C is welcome!

Been sick as hell and lots and lots of storms but I'm still kicking. I'd love to get an email of that PDF.

Well at least you're still kicking. Hopefully not any buckets at that. I'll try to send you a copy tomorrow providing I remember.

Ach, all this Chaos makes me want to finish that ever growing army issue I have. I need to get all of that stuff knocked out so I can at least field an army at some point in the next year...

Any chance you could send this to GW and tell them this is how a real Chaos codex should work by the way? I miss the cool stuff.

I think they would implode from the effectiveness/fluff coexistence.

no they would explode messily for our amusement

Or do both at the same time. Somehow.

yes their legs would implode and their torsos and head etc would explode, the vacuum effect of the legs imploding would create an inverted mushroom cloud of gore

You are all very disturbed and that's why Chaos loves you. <3

hahaha exactly

terminator champion and chaos chosen champion have 4 wounds?

i'll roll 4d6 to your one that's a typo.

Yeah, that'd be a typo by the maker of that PDF version. If you look at mine on page four and the non-pdf/Dakka thread content on page 1, you'll see that that's not the actual stat...

You guys hadn't thought I'd forgotten had you?

Later today I'm intending to post up the penultimate version of the PDF which should have the near-finalised rules and near-finalised (but to a much smaller extent) design. When I post this up I also intend to ask if people can design some army lists off it, just so I can get a better understanding of what the 'dex is capable of and any flaws...

Cheers,
Dave.

What do the icons do?

Which Icons? If you're referring to the squad Icons, then they're pretty much the same as their current incarnation except that MoS adds No Mercy! which is detailed on the first page/post under the spoiler.
Everything you need to know will be included in the PDF later however...

My latest (and penultimate) version of the PDF Codex is up on the 1st post. It should contain the latest rules and wargear, as well as containing all the special rules, entries and wargear so everything you need to play a game.

If people could post army lists created from this Codex that would be really appreciated. PLEASE. These lists would help me examine the balance of the Codex.

Of course you are all welcome to use it in your own games and all feedback is welcome, as ever.

I'll post my own army list shortly...

WOW, the pdf is really in-depth! Very cool work

Awesome...

I Love it...


You've done us Justice Dave !

Thank you!!!!

Thanks guys, I appreciate the support! As I said, all army lists are welcome to help me check it's balance etc. Well, not from you 'Tides; you don't even play 40K!

Cheers!

Ah, how I dearly wish this was the actual Chaos codex.

Way back with the 3.5 codex I had the idea for a pure thousand sons force, just got round to borrowing a friends 5ed chaos codex last week, and I almost wept.

Chaos 2000

Hq's

Chaos Sorceror
Terminator armour, Familiar, Deamonic Toughness, Mark of Slaanesh, Icon of the Emperors Children, Lash Warptime, Warp rift
215

Greater Daemon
MoS
175

Elites

Chaos Terminators *5
terminator Champions *5, Pair of Lightening claws *4, Chainfist, Heavy Flamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Daemonic Toughness,
Land raider Marauder, Havok, EA, Twin Linked Bolter, Frag Maw, Combi Melta, Dirge Caster, Dozer Blade
605

Troops

Noise Marines *6
Champ, Power Weapon, Doom siren
Rhino, Open Topped, Havok Launcher, Extra Armour
237

Noise Marines *6
Champ, Power Weapon, Doom siren
Rhino, Open Topped, Havok Launcher, Extra Armour
237

Heavy Support

Chaos Predator
Las Turret, Las Sponsons, EA, Havok
180

Chaos Defiler
Mark of Slaanesh
175

Chaos Defiler
Mark of Slaanesh
175

1999 points






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This is as close to my current army as i could get, and i have to say, i like it, its geared more towards infantry killy but it could still romp through a vehicle line with the deffies and the pred, all in all a strong force, alsoe the GD gives it a late game (hopefully) suckerpunch

Thanks for compliment Jack! That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like people to say! Thanks also for the list Marta! That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like people to post right now!

Here's a list of my own, may go in as an example army list within the PDF, not meant to be overly competitive, just TAC and show variety and the rules...

----

HQ

Chaos Sorcerer - Icon of the Black Legion - 150pts
Terminator Armour, Warptime, Chaos Theory, Guidance of Chaos

Daemon Prince - Icon of the World Eaters - 195pts
Wings, Mark of Khorne


Elites

5 Chaos Terminators - Icon of the Black Legion - 180pts
Reaper Autocannon, 1 Power Fist

Chaos Dreadnought - Icon of the Black Legion - 140pts
Twin-linked Lascannon, Heavy Flamer

Troops

10 Chaos Space Marines - Icon of the Black Legion - 220pts
Mark of Khorne, 2 Meltaguns, Chaos Rhino

10 Chaos Space Marines - Icon of the World Eaters - 215pts
Mark of Khorne, 2 Meltaguns, Chaos Rhino

8 Khorne Bezerkers - Icon of the World Eaters - 236pts
Skull Champion with Power Weapon, Chaos Rhino with Open Topped

10 Heretics - Icon of the World Eaters - 50pts
Lasguns

Fast Attack

Helltalon Divebomber - Icon of the Black Legion - 165pts

Heavy Support

Defiler - Icon of the Black Legion - 150pts
2 Havoc Launchers

Defiler - Icon of the Black Legion - 145pts
1 Havoc Launcher and Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon

Almost 1850pts

Not particularly competitive, but all-comers, combination of in-your-face and shooty and hopefully demonstrates the variety of (new) units available etc.

Just some quick feedback regarding the PDF:
• The Mark of Khorne entry in the Chaos Dreadnaught profile has 1 “and” too many.
• The Biker Champion has a listed toughness of 4 instead of 4(5)
• Clarify if unmarked daemons can be summoned by a marked unit
• Terminator entry is missing personal icon as selectable wargear.
• Possessed entry still references marks as icons.

I've also posted a list as requested. It’s a fun list that makes use of units that have been revamped by this ruleset.

HQ
Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne, Daemon Weapon, Daemonic Visage, Melta Bombs, Icon of the Black Legion and Chaos Warlord. 200pts

Elites
5 Terminators with twin lightning claws, Mark of Khorne. 225pts
Land Raider dedicated transport. 235pts

Chaos Dreadnaught with plasma cannon, missile launcher and havoc launcher. 145pts

Chaos Dreadnaught with plasma cannon, missile launcher and havoc launcher. 145pts

Troops
10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns and mark of chaos undivided. Aspiring champion equipped with power fist and personal icon. 205 pts
Rhino dedicated transport. 35 pts

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 plasma guns and mark of chaos undivided. Aspiring champion equipped with power weapon, plasma pistol and personal icon and. 215 pts
Rhino dedicated transport. 35 pts

8 Khorne Berserkers with a skull champion equipped with a power fist. 201 pts

Heavy Support
Chaos Land Raider. 235pts

Predator with heavy bolter sponsons, havoc launcher, extra armour and dozer blades. 120pts

Total: 1996

Ah, good call Candyman, thanks for the feedback. I have changed the PDF in accordance with your comments and have updated the attached file in the OP. Thanks man, very helpful of you!
Haven't seen you online for a while actually...

Will probably make up an army list for my Iron Warriors here later on, but first I would like to ask how the Hell talons bombs work. It says that you may replace the incendiary bombs with a single warp bomb. Does that mean you may only bomb once the whole game?

Thanks, that would be appreciated. But yes, the Warp Bomb can only be used once due to its power, it should say so in the bombing run entry, however I will also edit its wargear entry to say 'one use'.

Oh I understood that, I just wondered if you lose the incendiary bombs completely if you take a warp bomb (as it says "replace").

Yeah, you do. This is once again to balance out the power of the warpbombs.

I'll try to make a variety of TAC lists based on a few Legions when I get home, to see how powerful a fluffy list can be. Then I'll do my damnedest to make a WAAC list. (Not something I'm good at).

That'll be great thanks Crazy! I'll do the same with the WAAC so don't worry and I'd like to think that I can manage that quite well. I think...

I've always been better at making awful, awful ideas work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like 3rd ed. pure GK Daemonhunters; what a laugh. I'd always blow up every vehicle and decimate my friends in CC whenever I could.

Well, uhhh... some people just have a natural talent, eh Psycho?


Anyways, here's one of the more WAAC lists I can make I think

--HQ--

- Daemon Prince - Mark of the Night Lords - 210pts
Wings, Warptime

- Daemon Prince - Mark of the Night Lords - 210pts
Wings, Warptime

--Elites--

5 Chosen Chaos Space Marines - 175pts
4 Meltaguns, Rhino (Tank Hunters)

5 Chosen Chaos Space Marines - 175pts
4 Meltaguns, Rhino (Tank Hunters)

--Troops--

5 Chaos Space Marines - 125pts
Meltagun, Aspiring Champion w/ combi-melta, rhino

5 Chaos Space Marines - 125pts
Meltagun, Aspiring Champion w/ combi-melta, rhino

5 Chaos Space Marines - 120pts
Flamer, Aspiring Champion w/ combi-flamer, rhino

5 Chaos Space Marines - 120pts
Flamer, Aspiring Champion w/ combi-flamer, rhino

--Heavy Support--

Predator - 120pts
Autocannon Turret, Lascannon Sponsons

Predator - 120pts
Autocannon Turret, Lascannon Sponsons


1500pts

Not really fluffy, but I'd reckon pretty damn competitive. 2 Daemon Princes, 8 vehicles, 11 meltaguns. I'd say it's very competitive actually, unreasonably so or is this no worse than Razorspam?

i worry about this lists capability to cope with swarms

Teleporting Terminators is the answer to everything!

Still working on the army, but I thought I could give a little bit of critique on the writing: I have a bit of an issue with the way some of the Legion rules are written, primarily with the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons. The way it's stated makes me immediately feel like I can take ANY cult unit, and then I'm informed that I can't. I'll give you an example of how I'd word it:

Icon of the Emperor’s Children
 0-1 Limit on Cult Units removed, but you may not select units with a Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Khorne or Mark of Tzeentch, such as Khorne Bezerkers or Plague Marines.
 May not give units any Mark other than the Mark of Slaanesh.

Instead of:
Icon of the Emperor’s Children
 0-1 Limit on Cult Units removed.
 May not select units with a Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Khorne or Mark of Tzeentch.

More wordy, yes, but it seems clearer (at least to me).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, I got me an army list going. It's fluffy with a lot of thought and about an hour of work behind it. Tell me what you think:

HQ:
Kharn, the Betrayer - 180 points

ELITES:
5 Terminators in a Land Raider-- Reaper Autocannon, Power Fist, Chain Fist, Pair of Lightning Claws - 440 points

5 Terminators in a Land Raider-- Reaper Autocannon, Power Fist, Chain Fist, Pair of Lightning Claws - 440 points

5 Terminators in a Land Raider-- Reaper Autocannon, Power Fist, Chain Fist, Pair of Lightning Claws - 440 points

TROOPS:
8 Khorne Bezerkers in a Rhino with a Twin-linked Bolter-- Two plasma pistols, Skull Champion w/Gift of the Gods, Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon. - 246 points

8 Khorne Bezerkers in a Rhino with a Twin-linked Bolter-- Two plasma pistols, Skull Champion w/Gift of the Gods, Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon. - 246 points

8 Khorne Bezerkers in a Rhino with a Twin-linked Bolter-- Two plasma pistols, Skull Champion w/Gift of the Gods, Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon. - 246 points

FAST ATTACK:
10 Raptors-- Two Flamers, one Aspiring Champion w/Melta bombs and Plasma Pistol - 205 points

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Chaos Predator-- Twin Linked Lascannon, Sponson Lascannons - 150 points

Chaos Predator-- Twin Linked Lascannon, Sponson Lascannons - 150 points

Chaos Predator-- Twin Linked Lascannon, Sponson Lascannons - 150 points



2453 points total, intended for a 2500 point game, with a bit of room for equipment upgrades.

The plan is very simple: Land Raiders behind Rhinos and Predators on the flanks. Once in range, unload, charge, fire, whatever. Ram with the Rhinos once that's done, Maim Kill Burn, Maim Kill Burn. I'm not sure if I brought enough Close Combat troops, but I think it's well balanced and could take on a lot of armies.

An Iron Warrior army, based on what models I have or soon will have:

HQ
Aaron
Daemon Prince - 160
Icon of the Iron Warriors - free
Daemon Weapon - 55
Warptime - 25
Chaos Armour - 25
Total - 265

Garnok the Technomancer
Sorcerer - 110
Icon of the Iron Warriors - free
Warsmith - 30
Mark of Slaanesh - 5
Doombolt, Lash of Submission - free
Total - 145

Elites
Chaos Terminators - 90
3 additional - 90
Mark of Khorne - 20
Champion - 10
(With Twin Lightning Claws - 10)
Power Fist, Combi-plasma - 15
Power Maul, Combi-flamer - 10
Chain Fist, Combi-melta - 20
Reaper Autocannon - 20
Total - 285

Troops
Chaos Space Marines - 75
5 additional - 75
Aspiring Champion - 10
(With Plasma Pistol and Power Fist - 35)
Meltagun - 10
Mark of Chaos Undivided - 10
Rhino - 35
Havoc Launcher - 15
Total: 265

Chaos Space Marines - 75
5 additional - 75
Warp Cannon - 20
Grenade Launcher - 15
Total - 185

Heavy Support
Chaos Vindicator - 115
Siege Shield - 10
Combi-grenade launcher - 10
Total - 135

2 Obliterators - 160

Defiler - 145
Warp Cannon - 10
Dreadnought CCW - free
Total - 155

Total: 1495

Note then that this is not really a that tactical list but what I think seem funny, and fluffy for IW:s.

I noted however that the pdf doesn't include the rules for Siege shields, but I assume that is that the vehicle ignores terrain altogether?

Somewhat fluffy IW list
Should be about 1,5k

Sorcerer w/Mark of IW
Vision of Chaos+Doombolt

2x Dreadnoughts w/DCCW+ML

3xFull CSM squads with meltas and Icon of chaos all in rhinos

2xFull squads of heretics with flamers(one squad has Champion with Combi-weapon)

2xDefilers

crazypsyko666 wrote:Teleporting Terminators is the answer to everything!

Still working on the army, but I thought I could give a little bit of critique on the writing: I have a bit of an issue with the way some of the Legion rules are written, primarily with the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons. The way it's stated makes me immediately feel like I can take ANY cult unit, and then I'm informed that I can't. I'll give you an example of how I'd word it:

Icon of the Emperor’s Children
 0-1 Limit on Cult Units removed, but you may not select units with a Mark of Nurgle, Mark of Khorne or Mark of Tzeentch, such as Khorne Bezerkers or Plague Marines.
 May not give units any Mark other than the Mark of Slaanesh.

Thanks for the input Psyko, I always appreciate it!

Well, my reasoning was that if you can't take anything with a MoT/MoN/MoK then you can select as wargear either as your model would become invalid. I will make it a bit clearer with an example like you mentioned however, but I expect I'll largely keep the wording as it is (and it does still allow Chaos Undivided Marks)...
Thanks man!



Thanks again for the example lists guys, it's giving me a lot to think about. It's nice to see gift of the gods being taken (Psycho) as that's possibly my favourite piece of wargear.

Saint, I apologise but I don't have it as allowing Sorcerers to take Warsmith/Legion special rules for any warband other than the TS, I may change this in retrospect however. Also remember that meltaguns are free for Iron Warriors CSM's, so you can cut down points off your 1st CSM squad.

Thanks again for the feedback guys, I may increase the Dreadnought pts by 5pts however...

Working on a Thousand Sons army, and I've got another suggestion, this time regarding format. Wouldn't it be faster for page skimming if the Dedicated Transport section was placed between the Troops and Fast Attack Sections? This way readers don't have to skip through all of the tanks to get to the transport rules and upgrades. It would even be a little better if it was before the Heavy support section, because all but one unit that may take transports is ahead of that section.

Another thing: looking at the Sorcerer's Warcoven, what is this 'bonus' to psychic tests the sorcerer's coven special ability confers?

Oh, darn it. I'll just skip the Warsmith, then. I suppose they are mainly useful with a havoc squad, really. But I still wonder what the Siege shield does.

Have it this way, then:

HQ
Aaron
Daemon Prince - 160
Icon of the Iron Warriors - free
Daemon Weapon - 55
Wings - 25
Warptime - 25
Chaos Armour - 25
Total - 290

Garnok the Technomancer
Sorcerer - 110
Icon of the Iron Warriors - free
Mark of Slaanesh - 5
Doombolt, Lash of Submission - free
Total - 115

Elites
Chaos Terminators - 90
3 additional - 90
Mark of Khorne - 20
Champion - 10
(With Twin Lightning Claws - 10)
Power Fist, Combi-plasma - 15
Power Maul, Combi-flamer - 10
Chain Fist, Combi-melta - 20
Reaper Autocannon - 20
Total - 285

Troops
Chaos Space Marines - 75
5 additional - 75
Aspiring Champion - 10
(With Plasma Pistol and Power Fist - 35)
Meltagun - free
Mark of Chaos Undivided - 10
Rhino - 35
Havoc Launcher - 15
Extra Armour - 15
Total: 270

Chaos Space Marines - 75
5 additional - 75
Warp Cannon - 20
Grenade Launcher - 15
Total - 185

Heavy Support
Chaos Vindicator - 115
Siege Shield - 10
Combi-grenade launcher - 10
Total - 135

2 Obliterators - 160

Defiler - 145
Warp Cannon - 10
Dreadnought CCW - free
Total - 155

Total: 1495

Honestly, you know what's annoying me? How little feedback/views this has got. Chaos players are clearly unhappy with their Codex and I often see them wanting a suitable fandex in the least, and since I've posted the full PDF up I've had what... 8 people comment out of 60+ downloads and this thread has possibly the worst view-to-comment ratio out of any large thread on this board. *grumble*
Anyways, with that 'rant' of sorts out of the way...

-----

Sorry Saint, I'll be sure to include the Siege Shield in the PDF's next update, it should ignore all difficult terrain IIRC though; exactly the same as the loyalist siege shields. I'd actually argue the Warsmith to be more helpful with weapons that can scatter thanks to his BS6?

Oooh, I look forward to this TS list thanks Psyko; the bonus is basically a +1 modifier for each Sorcerer in the unit to any enemy psychic test within 18"(?), I'll try to clarify this in the PDF; good point.
I wasn't sure about the dedicated transport placement; in recent codices it seems to place it/them at the end of the army list, but I think I will place it in the middle as you suggested for ease of reference.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your feedback. Cheers!

Macok wrote:There is just one thing I especially didn't like. There is too much of the stuff in here.
There are 9 warbands. Numerous special rules. 7 Specials, 4 HQs, 7 Elites, 8 Troops, 4FA and 12(!) HS and a rhino. PLUS 10 daemon units. That is almost double the amount what the other codex (plural codex?) have. This is an incredible long wall of text. While having many options is good I think you went a little over the top here.

You are right, but i disagree that it is a bad thing. C:CSM is essentially charged with covering rules for 4 legions, plus undivided heretic legions, plus "renegades", plus demons of all ilks, and the list goes on... It is a big undertaking. Partly why GW has failed so many times with it.

To be fair, I have cut it down since then, but yes, it is, as you pointed out, a squeeze to cover Chaos. However, let me put it like this if this is still a concern to anyone. I'm not saying this because I'm necessarily right, it just add some perspective I hope:

Codex Space Marines:
HQ - 15 (+2)
Elites - 8
Troops - 2 (+1)
Fast Attack - 7
Heavy Support - 9
Dedicated Transports - 3
Total - 44(+3)

My CSM Codex:
HQ - 11(+1)
Elites - 7 (1 exclusive)
Troops - 7 (1 exclusive)(+1)
Fast Attack - 4
Heavy Support - 8
Dedicated Transports - 1
Total - 38 (+2)

Just Dave wrote:Honestly, you know what's annoying me? How little feedback/views this has got. Chaos players are clearly unhappy with their Codex and I often see them wanting a suitable fandex in the least, and since I've posted the full PDF up I've had what... 8 people comment out of 60+ downloads and this thread has possibly the worst view-to-comment ratio out of any large thread on this board. *grumble*
Anyways, with that 'rant' of sorts out of the way...

I was at first hesatant to post here as well, a new codex for an army like csm's was initially not my cup of tea, im the first to admit that there are things that i would like changed about the current csm's but...... idk its like trying to fix something that isnt broken for me, i still win consistantly with the current dex and yeah... anyway i like the new one


oh and some feedback on the list i posted would be nice, or even an acknolegement, not fun to be ignored sos

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

17072

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/13 02:12:23

Post by: crazypsyko666

Hopefully this message will become my Thousand Sons army list soon, but I thought I should mention the names of the daemonic gifts in the wargear section doesn't always match up to what it says in the unit profiles. I can still figure it out, (like Daemonic Mutation and Chaos Mutation) but it should be fixed.


Here it is: Surprisingly easy to make, really. Doombolt and Bolt of change are extremely powerful abilities, one can eat through infantry and the other through tanks. With so many free psychic powers, the choices are really obvious and easy. Flat out to the front, get out behind a screen of Rhinos, shoot everything to death, rinse repeat. SAFH, at your service.

HQ:
Daemon Prince-- Wings, Mark of Tzeentch, Doombolt, Bolt of Change, Icon of the Thousand Sons, Sorcerer Lord - 245


ELITES:
9 Sorcerer's Warcoven in a Rhino-- 2 Force Weapons, 6 Doombolt and 3 Bolt of Change - 405

9 Sorcerer's Warcoven in a Rhino-- 2 Force Weapons, 6 Doombolt and 3 Bolt of Change - 405

9 Sorcerer's Warcoven in a Rhino-- 2 Force Weapons, 6 Doombolt and 3 Bolt of Change - 405


TROOPS:
8 Rubric Marines in a Rhino-- 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (free) w/Force Weapon and Doombolt - 252

8 Rubric Marines in a Rhino-- 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (free) w/Force Weapon and Doombolt - 252

8 Rubric Marines in a Rhino-- 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (free) w/Force Weapon and Doombolt - 252

8 Rubric Marines in a Rhino-- 1 Aspiring Sorcerer (free) w/Force Weapon and Doombolt - 252

2468 points total.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

26204

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/13 02:32:07

Post by: candy.man

@ JustDave
I found a few impressive wargear combinations that might need another one over regarding balance.

Shadow Lord + Daemonic Visage + Vision of Chaos

Terminator Champions + MoK + Twin lightning Claws + Daemonic Mutation + Warlord = 8 attacks per model.

Dreadnaught + Plasma Cannon + ML + Havoc Launcher + Chaos Theory = 5-7 template blasts per turn (9-11 during fire frenzy).


Can you also make it clear in the codex whether Fire Frenzy affects psychic shooting attacks? This seems like something that could be abused with chaos theory.

You also need to make it clear if a HQ with bike receives the” hit and run over” rule. At the moment it looks like he doesn’t and I’m not sure if this was on purpose or not.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’ve also noticed that unmarked Daemon Princes with a daemon weapon can achieve strength 8 (9 including unholy might).

Reply by: Slayer le boucher - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/13 14:37:45

Post by: Slayer le boucher

Just Dave wrote:
But yes, stealing thunder from Daemon Players is an issue I want to avoid.

Don't be afraid, nearly 80% of Deamons Players where allready CSM players.

Plus Deamon codex is the worst possible codex that as ever seen the daylight...

Deamons, as Grey Knights should have stayed a bonus unit in their respectif ally's dexes, i mean its like giving Ratlings or Ogryns or even Snots their own Dex...

I'd rather see in the futur CSM dex, the Deamons as they are, i mean Bloodletters, Hounds, Juggers and my BT,along side my World Eaters, without the need to fill 2 FOC or play Apoc.

A solution would be to limit their numbers by the amount of Cult Units you have.

Example you can't take 4 units of Bloodletters if you only have 2 Zerkers squads in your FOC, you have 2 Zerkers squads?,then you can take 2 BL units or a Bloodletter unit+ a Bloodthirster or Prince or Flesh Hounds or whatever.

Someone mentioned that the Warbands rules wasn't that good and they where too restrictif if someone wanted to play other things alongside.

Personnaly i have 8k points of Zerkers, and nothing but Zerkers and Bloodletters.

Just Add the Undivided Glory rule where a Universal Chaos marked HQ permits you to take a squad of each Cult troops, but they count as Elite.

Also why isn't there any Gods specific wargear for their Cult Troops?, where's the Plaque Swords, Khorne's Axe and Collars?, where's the Banner of Rage or the Pandemic Totem?

For the rest i really like what you did.

If i may add a suggestion; latlely we see more and more characters/units with special ability's that arn't Psychic ones, namely the BrotherHood Champ GK with his Ultimae Warrior rule, or the DE Incubis with their special attacks.

Most of the time Khorne oriented HQ's get the short stick,where they have no powers and just gain an extra attack...

Why not give them the choice between various battle stances or special attacks?, you can only pick one for xxpts but you would have the choice to customize a bit more your HQ's to match your playstyle.

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

17072

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/13 16:16:34

Post by: crazypsyko666

Slayer le boucher wrote:
Plus Deamon codex is the worst possible codex that as ever seen the daylight...

Umm, what?

Reply by: Andilus Greatsword - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/13 17:23:43

Post by: Andilus Greatsword

This is awesome, I'll have to get my Chaos-playing friend to try this out sometime!

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/14 18:35:03

Post by: Just Dave

Andilus Greatsword wrote:This is awesome, I'll have to get my Chaos-playing friend to try this out sometime!

Thank you very much! If he does, then please tell me the results if that's possible? Cheers!

Tyranic Marta wrote:I was at first hesatant to post here as well, a new codex for an army like csm's was initially not my cup of tea, im the first to admit that there are things that i would like changed about the current csm's but...... idk its like trying to fix something that isnt broken for me, i still win consistantly with the current dex and yeah... anyway i like the new one


oh and some feedback on the list i posted would be nice, or even an acknolegement, not fun to be ignored sos

I apologise if you felt... 'neglected', I've constantly repeated my thanks to the supporters of this thread and I did say "Thanks also for the list Marta! That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like people to post right now". I apologise however, I don't really intend to provide competitive feedback on the lists, I could if you really desire, however my requests for the lists is so I can see what can be taken and check balance etc.
But yes, some people like the Chaos Codex, however most veterans do not and it is getting towards its time for an update in some opinions. Was an enjoyable exercise for me at least.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Hopefully this message will become my Thousand Sons army list soon, but I thought I should mention the names of the daemonic gifts in the wargear section doesn't always match up to what it says in the unit profiles. I can still figure it out, (like Daemonic Mutation and Chaos Mutation) but it should be fixed.


Here it is: Surprisingly easy to make, really. Doombolt and Bolt of change are extremely powerful abilities, one can eat through infantry and the other through tanks. With so many free psychic powers, the choices are really obvious and easy. Flat out to the front, get out behind a screen of Rhinos, shoot everything to death, rinse repeat. SAFH, at your service.

Thanks Psyko! I'll be sure to check out the naming inconsistencies; much appreciated!
Thanks for the list, though I'm not sure how SAFH you'd find the TS to be honest; you are still relying on AV11 transports, vulnerable to PotW and short-ranged, hopefully these are adequate balancing factors?

candy.man wrote:@ JustDave
I found a few impressive wargear combinations that might need another one over regarding balance.

Shadow Lord + Daemonic Visage + Vision of Chaos

Would you say it's balanced in that a Chaos Sorcerer cannot get Shadow Lord, whilst Vision of Chaos only affects psykers. I agree, Daemonic Visage & Shadow Lord could potentially be [over?]powerful, but is it unreasonably so and a bad thing to encourage combinations?

Terminator Champions + MoK + Twin lightning Claws + Daemonic Mutation + Warlord = 8 attacks per model.

Would you still argue this to be overpowered when the Terminator Squad alone costs 290pts, whilst needing a HQ, the charge and some form of transport?

Dreadnaught + Plasma Cannon + ML + Havoc Launcher + Chaos Theory = 5-7 template blasts per turn (9-11 during fire frenzy).

Yes, I have been reconsidering the ruling for Fire-frenzy, I may make it so it only affects one ranged weapon, or that the Havoc Launcher doesn't count towards it?
Also note that such a Dreadnought would cost 175pts whilst being no tougher than a normal dread.

I’ve also noticed that unmarked Daemon Princes with a daemon weapon can achieve strength 8 (9 including unholy might).

Much like the others, would you say this is still liable to being over-powered as it (whilst increasing the # of attacks), can hurt the DP itself, costs 215pts (235 w/unholy might. 260 w/ Wings & Unholy might), but is still liable to small arms and still weaker than Carnifex's, Wraithlords, Dreadknights, Furioso's etc?


Thanks for the feedback Candy.man, I do value your opinion so this is very helpful. I would like to point out that I'm not in any way rejecting your suggestions/thoughts, I'm simply trying to point out factors I thought could balance them to see what you thought including the factors I pointed out?

Can you also make it clear in the codex whether Fire Frenzy affects psychic shooting attacks? This seems like something that could be abused with chaos theory.

You also need to make it clear if a HQ with bike receives the” hit and run over” rule. At the moment it looks like he doesn’t and I’m not sure if this was on purpose or not.

I was unsure whether to clarify this for Fire Frenzy; I did intentionally make it so it stated "ranged weapons", I could clarify it further, bold/capatilise weapons or leave it as it is?

Yes, HQ's with bikes do not receive Hit and Run Over (intentionally), would you think this needs clarifying (also?), or best left to the common sense of the player?

Thanks again man.

Slayer le boucher wrote:*snip*

My intentions here weren't to recreate the Chaos factions, but the Chaos Space Marine Codex. The Daemons have their own Codex now and I don't intend to change that and I can't imagine GW will either.

As it stands, your example for the cult units is exactly how it works. Your auxiliaries shouldn't outnumber the core of the Codex, but if you do have 2 Zerker squads then you can get 2 squads of Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster.

When the person made that comment about the Warbands rule, my understanding was they had misunderstood the rule, whilst only the God-specific warbands impose actual limitations and even then they're very minor.

Well each cult troop should hopefully play differently and possess different stat-lines, rules and god-specific wargear. Whilst, yes, these aren't as numerous as you describe, they're still there. My hopes are that there's equal balance between the god-specific and undivided factions?

As it stands, a HQ from each warband can access a unique rule, whilst there are non-psychic powers available also. The Daemon Weapons have been improved, gifts have been added for further customisation also. My overall intentions behind this and the options were to give the players the options they need to make things their own, customise it to a reasonable extent and make it as fluffy or not as they like, whilst not forcing anything upon them. Hopefully I've achieved this. Hopefully.
I believed on of the problems of the 3.5 'dex to be too many options, whilst the 4th edition 'dex had too few options, I hope to achieve the balance between these.

As for special characters, what would you say to the current incarnation of Kharn? He obviously has non-psychic attack and does more than just receive a single additional attack; he receives an additional attack for each (enemy or friendly) model he kills amongst other things!

Thanks for the comments, hopefully I've been able to justify my choices and reasoning, if you still feel that change is needed, then please just say. Cheers.

Cheers for the feedback everyone!

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/14 19:20:19

Post by: crazypsyko666

I dunno, 18" flat out movement, plus another 18" range for bolt of change alone (especially at BS5) is a dangerous combination of speed and power. I hate to suggest this, but you might want to attach a minor points cost to each ability taken. It'll ratchet up the cost, definitely, but I'm seeing a Tzeentch army being deadly as all hell. I'm definitely going to playtest this with my friends when I get the chance, but I stand by my original assertion. This army could be dangerous as hell.

Reply by: Devastator - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/14 19:46:01

Post by: Devastator

Did i miss something, but why would anyone take possessed champion? I mean, he has no war gear options and same stats as normal trooper but is 10 points more expensive.

You also need to re-word the effect of Mos for Possessed due the fact that there is no such thing as rendering USR.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/14 22:00:18

Post by: Just Dave

crazypsyko666 wrote:I dunno, 18" flat out movement, plus another 18" range for bolt of change alone (especially at BS5) is a dangerous combination of speed and power. I hate to suggest this, but you might want to attach a minor points cost to each ability taken. It'll ratchet up the cost, definitely, but I'm seeing a Tzeentch army being deadly as all hell. I'm definitely going to playtest this with my friends when I get the chance, but I stand by my original assertion. This army could be dangerous as hell.

Isn't it 12" (rhino movement) + 18" range? Nonetheless, I think you may be onto something which I overlooked. However, I am now going to edit it so they're BS4 (still WS5), as I'd rather not charge for psychic powers as that's something that is - understandably - being moved away from in 5th edition I think...

Thanks man!

Devastator wrote:Did i miss something, but why would anyone take possessed champion? I mean, he has no war gear options and same stats as normal trooper but is 10 points more expensive.

You also need to re-word the effect of Mos for Possessed due the fact that there is no such thing as rendering USR.

Good catch on the Rendering; thanks man. And yeah, I'll have to change the possessed entry as they are supposed to be A2, with the Champion being A3 and eligible for possession, which would be any motivation to select him.

Thanks man, will edit it in now!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Devastator, I don't know if you're looking at the PDF or not, but on it it doesn't say 'rendering' but 'rending' as it should?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit 2: Right, those changes have been made and will be implemented when I next update the OP's PDF. Cheers!

Reply by: LeBaron - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/15 03:12:43

Post by: LeBaron

Well, mate, it looks like you've been busy tweeking the Codex. I think this has gotten quite a bit of 'fan' fixes too. I've been hella busy so I'll have to download the new PDF.

Reply by: Devastator - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/15 05:22:50

Post by: Devastator

Yes it is rending not rendering.

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/15 05:53:45

Post by: Tyranic Marta

thats ok JD i completely missed what you had said im sorry, and thats all good about the feedback etc i wasnt quite sure what you were wanting the lists for but i jumped at the chance to build one lol, all good

sorry for the inconvienience

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/16 02:13:45

Post by: candy.man

@JustDave
Thanks for your post. Yeah, most of the combinations are counter balanced somewhat by point cost. It’s just that the existence of Thunder Wolf Cavalry throws the idea of point cost as a balance tool out the window. I reckon this is where list building and play testing comes into practice (there’s a lot of cheap stuff in the codex to counter balance strong expensive stuff). In order to find issues, the list building will need to revolve around the strong customisable units such as terminators, princes, dreadnaughts etc.

Out of all the combinations I posted, the only one I would really worry about the most would be Shadow Lord+Daemonic Visage. The idea of a flying prince with a good chance to render most things in an assault at WS1 somewhat irks me. I think if you were to slightly reduce the synergy between these two upgrades, there would be less room for abuse.

In regards to dreadnaughts, I’d say the issues here could be fixed by altering Fire Frenzy. Currently, the 175 point build above would be a better buy than 2 Oblits, a Defiler or a Tri Las Pred. I like your idea of causing Fire Frenzy to only affect 1 piece of ranged wargear. Be sure to add “(psychic ranged attacks do not account)” to the Fire Frenzy entry as well.

In regards to biker HQs, thanks for the clarification. I thought as much but I wanted to double check in case this was a typo.

Reply by: Ouze - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/19 09:32:53

Post by: Ouze

I cannot speak to the balance of this codex, but I really like the concept so much. Good work. I'm going to try this out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey, quick question.

for the Land Raider Marauder: do you envision the Marauder Cannon as being a hull-mounted weapon (like the LR Achilles, or Ares) or as a turret mounted weapon?

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/20 12:48:53

Post by: Just Dave

Thanks again for the feedback candy.man, seriously, it's very helpful and I've seen you provide solid feedback in proposed rules before so it's an opinion I value. I agree with what you're saying though, I shall try to include these combinations in list building. I admit, I'm not usually one to spend a lot of points on a single unit, so I may not be the best person for it, but I'll sure as hell give it a try.

I can understand what you're saying about the Shadow Lord; possibly make it so Visage is an unmodified leadership test or WS1, or simply change visage itself? I agree with what you're saying though, just wondering how to change it...

Well, I've altered Fire Frenzy to not affect Havoc Launcher's or Psychic Powers, which should help balance it at least a bit, but a single ranged weapon may be more suitable, but that might not make 2-ranged weapon dreads (eg. LC/ML) worth it for the risk of Blood Thirst?

Ouze wrote:I cannot speak to the balance of this codex, but I really like the concept so much. Good work. I'm going to try this out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey, quick question.

for the Land Raider Marauder: do you envision the Marauder Cannon as being a hull-mounted weapon (like the LR Achilles, or Ares) or as a turret mounted weapon?

Thanks Ouze, that means a lot, cheers. For the Marauder Cannon, personally I envisage it as a hull-mounted weapon like most Land Raiders. Then again, Turret Mounted could work consider it's based around the Brass Scorpion's Cannon.


Thanks again everyone, I shall update the attached PDF soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rightyhoo, as suggested by candy.man, here's an army list that attempts to abuse the potential number of attacks Khornate Terminator Champions can dish out: what do you think? Too cheap/good for 2000pts?

--- HQ ---

Daemon Prince – Icon of the World Eaters – Mark of Khorne, Wings, Chief Slaughterer, Chaos Mutation – 205pts

--- Elites ---

5 Chaos Terminator Champions – Mark of Khorne, 4 Pairs of Lightning Claws, 1 Chainfist, Chaos Mutation - 295pts
Land Raider – Extra Armour, Frag Maw – 255pts

--- Troops ---

8 Khorne Bezerkers – Skull Champion with Power Fist, Gift of the Gods – 251pts
Rhino Dedicated Transport – Open Topped

8 Khorne Bezerkers – Skull Champion with Power Fist, Gift of the Gods – 251pts
Rhino Dedicated Transport – Open Topped

8 Khorne Bezerkers – Skull Champion with Power Fist, Gift of the Gods – 251pts
Rhino Dedicated Transport – Open Topped

15 Heretics – 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Chaos Undivided – 110pts

--- Heavy Support ---

Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield – 125pts

Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield – 125pts

Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield – 125pts

1995pts



All units bar the Heretics are viable, tough fast-moving threats which intend to cause target priority problems for the opponent and try to help the Land Raider arrive intact in order to deliver its Terminator cargo who - with the prince within 6" - would get 8 attacks on the charge.
Too powerful? No more threatening than Hammernators? What dya think?

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/20 23:53:40

Post by: Tyranic Marta

i think it could struggle with anti tank

but otherwise good

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/23 03:01:44

Post by: candy.man

@JustDave

Thanks for your reply.

I’m kind of stumped regarding the Shadow Lord as well. When I wrote my earlier post, I tried to think of a good easy fix but was unable to. Individually these upgrades are fine, it is only when they are combined, they have a Mephiston esque “Invincible Gaze of Death” type affect lol. Out of a choice between making daemonic visage not stack with other effects or a rewrite, I’d probably vote for the rewrite. This way daemonic visage can be balanced against use with Shadow Lord and Visions of Chaos. Perhaps reworking Visage into a –X amount to WS/another stat rather than a setting WS to 1. This way, if one were to combine abilities, their effects would not be as potent.

I can see what you’re saying regarding 2 ranged weapon dreads and I must say I overlooked that. The idea of Blood Thirst affecting dual ranged weapon dreads has been bugging me for a while now. What about making Blood Thirst count as Fire Frenzy in the case of a dual ranged weapon dread (or Fire Frenzy counting as Blood Thirst in the case of a dual DCCW dread)? The profile might need a slight point increase but this could make Crazed work a little better (and more entertaining) for specialised weapon builds.

In regards to terminators, the below list looks fine and someone balanced. I’ve built a few test lists that weren’t posted here similar to the one below although I used regular CSM and generic lesser daemons instead of Berserkers and Heretics to mitigate the cost of the terminator champion death squad unit.

As a side note, I’ve been trying to think of cheesy combinations and I thought of a list revolving around deep striking terminator champions using both Abaddon and Guidance of Chaos.

Decent of Terminators
Abaddon: 290

5x terminator Champions with combi weapons and Guidance of Chaos: 230
5x terminator Champions with combi weapons and Guidance of Chaos: 230
5x terminator Champions with combi weapons and Guidance of Chaos: 230

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns, power fist champion, mark of chaos undivided and rhino transport: 235

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns, power fist champion, mark of chaos undivided and rhino transport: 235

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns, power sword champion, mark of chaos undivided and rhino transport: 235

Predator with Lascannon sponsons: 120
Predator with Lascannon sponsons: 120
Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons: 85

Total: 2000
The list has its weaknesses but at the same time, it wouldn’t be a fun list to play against lol. 1D6 deepstriking shenanigans FTW!

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/25 16:20:38

Post by: Just Dave

I'm back, been busy recently so haven't been able finish this off, but now it should be able to receive my near-undivided attention and get it finished. Just going to read through it a couple more times myself, wait for a certain person to get back to me on the design and in the mean time hopefully LOTS of people will be able to provide feedback and comments, positive or negative. If people want to spread the word, that'd be grrreat!


@ Candy.man, thanks again for the feedback man. Seriously, it's REALLY helpful.

That's an idea about the Shadow Lord/Visage. Maybe -1 attacks? Many units these days are fearless anyway, -1 WS is a bit weak and -1 attacks could be a bit powerful, but would still be less so than WS1. I was hoping the balance would come from the widespread fearless units and the limited access to this ability, but I do agree with what you're suggesting, glad you can also see how I'm struggling for an easy fix though! I'll give this more thought when I'm more awake, but -1 attacks (doesn't stack, minimum of 1) might be more appropriate?

I dunno, I personally liked the effects of crazed; it helps balance the dreads, or it can help enhance them. I think if it was made so fire frenzy can count as blood thirst vice versa it could require a serious points increase as you'd be twice as likely to get twice as many shots etc! As it is, it adds a bit of randomness to them which can hinder your dread and plans, but unlike before can't hurt yourself or (proverbially and literally) shoot your plans in the foot? Chaos armies always have a bit of a random side to them, it's just it can pay off too. That's one of the reasons I like Gift of the Gods (wargear) so much; it can potentially allow your 150pts character to re-roll saves, or it can turn them into a 35pts Spawn!
as ever of course, your thoughts would be appreciated on this matter...

Nice list man, I was intending to make a similar one! I'm not sure whether I believe it could be too powerful or under-powered? That's probably a good sign I guess, but I'm going to have to look it over a couple more times to see if I can decide. I'm considering adding +5pts to each Terminator Champion power, but they're pretty expensive on top of the 50pts upgrade all-ready.
Thanks again candy.man.

As ever guys, all feedback is appreciated. It's almost finished. Cheers.

Reply by: Praxiss - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/25 18:06:21

Post by: Praxiss

I have just started reading through the latest PDF version. it looks great!!! I will have to print it out and nip to Staples to get it bound to make it easier to read i think.

Regarding the iron Warriors Icon. Does BS6 make the weapon twin linked? So a Basilisk would be able to re-roll scatter?


Quick notes from a quick read (i apologise if some of these have been covered already):


Chaos Lord - according to the list you coudl equip him with a pistol/boltgun, a CCW/power weapon etc AND a combi weapon. Shouldnt the combi weapon be listed withthe weapon options?

Chaos Champion - See above

Obliterator - Must chose 1 weapon from each group. What happend if the unit is out of range of all the weapons in group 2? Does it just not fire? Presumably if you want assault you would have to choose the P.Fist or just not assault?





LOVE the Chaos Theory psyker power. Proper chaotic.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/25 19:44:47

Post by: Just Dave

Thanks man, means a lot! Well, I wouldn't advise getting it bound etc just yet as it's not quite it's final version, but it's almost there!

That's not the Iron Warriors Icon, it's the Warsmith rule, but yes, it would make weapons BS6.

Reply by: candy.man - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/26 04:41:59

Post by: candy.man

I like the idea of -1A. Not overly powerful yet effective enough to encourage its use (especially in the hands of a shadow visage lord holding a power maul).

In regards to Dreads, your current fire frenzy rules are still good. I am just of the opinion that specialised dreads get shafted a wee bit with crazed (in situations such as a dual ranged weapon dread rolling blood rage). I personally reckon that it would still be balanced out as a player could still get fire frenzy/blood rage when they do not need it (resulting in a dual ranged dread doing nothing or a CC dread blood raging after a Monolith ). The bonus crazed confers aren’t particularly game breaking now that fire frenzy only affects 1 ranged weapon (resulting in an extra 1-2 shots at best). CC dreads would be counter balanced by the rage USR (most like involving the dread raging after inappropriate opponents lol) I can see where you’re going at though and I agree to a certain extent. Perhaps make the opposing crazed result count as “do nothing” in specialised dreads? At the end of the day, the current fire frenzy rules are still adequate and I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they were to remain.

In regards to the terminator list, I think it is a case of being powerful in certain situations. What makes the combo good is that Abaddon can re-roll reserve rolls and allow everyone to deepstrike at the same turn. If the terminators were to arrive early enough and melta/plasma key units, it could be devastating. The terminators themselves would still be a threat as each terminator squad is capable of 20 power weapon attacks on the charge and at least 1 squad would be escorting Abaddon. IG and Thunder Wolf Cavalry heavy Space Wolves would probably laugh at a Decent of Terminators list. If I were to offer an analogy, if would be like JOWW heavy Space Wolves rocking face against nids but getting their asses handed to them by a psychic defence heavy list.

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/26 05:27:30

Post by: crazypsyko666

The massive use of Fearless almost makes me wonder why we have a Leadership system in the first place. I approve of the new Shadow Lord/Visage ability. I think there should be an anti-leadership ability, but perhaps not for those.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/26 13:15:57

Post by: Just Dave

candy.man wrote:I like the idea of -1A. Not overly powerful yet effective enough to encourage its use (especially in the hands of a shadow visage lord holding a power maul).

OK, -1 attack it (probably) is. Will think about it a bit more, but it's certainly more balanced than WS1...

In regards to Dreads, your current fire frenzy rules are still good. I am just of the opinion that specialised dreads get shafted a wee bit with crazed (in situations such as a dual ranged weapon dread rolling blood rage). I personally reckon that it would still be balanced out as a player could still get fire frenzy/blood rage when they do not need it (resulting in a dual ranged dread doing nothing or a CC dread blood raging after a Monolith ). The bonus crazed confers aren’t particularly game breaking now that fire frenzy only affects 1 ranged weapon (resulting in an extra 1-2 shots at best). CC dreads would be counter balanced by the rage USR (most like involving the dread raging after inappropriate opponents lol) I can see where you’re going at though and I agree to a certain extent. Perhaps make the opposing crazed result count as “do nothing” in specialised dreads? At the end of the day, the current fire frenzy rules are still adequate and I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they were to remain.

I dunno, as ever I of course appreciate the feedback, but I'm thinking I'll keep it as it is. I currently however have the Fire Frenzy affecting ranged weapons, except Havoc Launchers and Psychic Powers (so more than the 1 ranged weapon), meaning that they can also really benefit from fire frenzy as well as be hindered by it (no control over who they shoot) and suffer from blood thirst (although they are still capable in CC), so I personally think it's pretty balanced as it is, particularly with the changes regarding the Dual-ranged weapon, Havoc Launcher, Psychic Power Dread you mentioned before?

In regards to the terminator list, I think it is a case of being powerful in certain situations. What makes the combo good is that Abaddon can re-roll reserve rolls and allow everyone to deepstrike at the same turn. If the terminators were to arrive early enough and melta/plasma key units, it could be devastating. The terminators themselves would still be a threat as each terminator squad is capable of 20 power weapon attacks on the charge and at least 1 squad would be escorting Abaddon. IG and Thunder Wolf Cavalry heavy Space Wolves would probably laugh at a Decent of Terminators list. If I were to offer an analogy, if would be like JOWW heavy Space Wolves rocking face against nids but getting their asses handed to them by a psychic defence heavy list.

Hmmm... Yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying, it could be very situational. I'll probably try to do some re-balancing with the Terminator Champions upgrade costs, but otherwise I think you're right it should be pretty situational. I'll have a closer look and see if I can alter some points or something a bit more. I can only imagine this tactic happening at higher points costs however, which in itself is a balancing factor of sorts. Thanks again C-man!

crazypsyko666 wrote:The massive use of Fearless almost makes me wonder why we have a Leadership system in the first place. I approve of the new Shadow Lord/Visage ability. I think there should be an anti-leadership ability, but perhaps not for those.

Sorry Psyko, I'm not sure I understand what you meant in that last sentence?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The attached PDF has just been updated with the latest version of the PDF Codex. This may well be its finished state.

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/28 01:41:52

Post by: crazypsyko666

I'd like to see an ability that lowers leadership or makes passing leadership abilities harder, but it would be better if it were a minor ability that could be taken as an extra, rather than one that defines what the legion can do by way of the HQ. Does that make more sense?

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/28 11:44:12

Post by: Just Dave

Aaah yes, I get what you're saying now. It's a nice idea. Well, the Psychic defense is more 'aggressive' than others (i.e. more than a simple nullification) and I know what you're saying, the 'visage' gift works towards that end slightly. It'd be tricky to implement and it could be odd if armies such as 'crons and 'nids were scared, but I will look into it.

Also, I relocated the rhino in the latest PDF version as I think you(?) requested.

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/29 06:32:56

Post by: crazypsyko666

Hell, I thought the whole Dedicated Transports section should be moved behind Fast Attack. If that meant the Rhino and nothing else, then sure.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/29 13:31:15

Post by: Just Dave

Well the rhino is the dedicated transports section, which has been moved to just behind troops.

I'm currently thinking of a way to improve the havocs at all; the Codex Devastators have Signum's, the BA's are cheap whilst the SW's are cheap and split-fire, but I'm not really sure what I could add to the Havocs to improve them slightly. I may just take them down to 70pts base, though that'd look a bit odd.

Reply by: Devastator - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/29 13:42:50

Post by: Devastator

You still have the problem with possessed and MoS.
Currently it doesn't work as intended, due the fact that there is no such thing as rending usr.(Same problem as with Canis)

Just re-word it to something like this:
"Close combat attacks made by possessed unit with MoS gain rending ability as detailed in the rulebook"

Edit: was looking at apparently older version. Point still stands.

Reply by: Clauss - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/29 14:20:44

Post by: Clauss

I just read half of it, I really love the codex. Great flavor, fun units, if this was the chaos codex i wouldn't have stopped playing them. Well done man, I wish this was the real codex. (I hope GW is watching)

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/30 03:49:35

Post by: Tyranic Marta

why not give the havoks a built in cover save? it would really make them more survivy

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/30 13:30:50

Post by: Just Dave

Clauss wrote:I just read half of it, I really love the codex. Great flavor, fun units, if this was the chaos codex i wouldn't have stopped playing them. Well done man, I wish this was the real codex. (I hope GW is watching)

Thank you very much man, the compliment is really appreciated. Comments like that make this worth doing. Cheers.

Devastator wrote:You still have the problem with possessed and MoS.
Currently it doesn't work as intended, due the fact that there is no such thing as rending usr.(Same problem as with Canis)

Just re-word it to something like this:
"Close combat attacks made by possessed unit with MoS gain rending ability as detailed in the rulebook"

Edit: was looking at apparently older version. Point still stands.

Yep, has been changed. Cheers Devastator.

Tyranic Marta wrote:why not give the havoks a built in cover save? it would really make them more survivy

Not a bad idea - other than survivy not being a word - although I'm not sure how this could be implemented fluff-wise and wouldn't benefit those in a transport tbh...

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/30 20:29:28

Post by: Tyranic Marta

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/366288.page
have a look at ghosts, and SS power armour, maybe yopu could implement something similar, i really dont mind if you take the idea

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/31 21:49:24

Post by: Amanax

Quick question -

Have you considered giving Lucius a 4++ instead of 5++ in close combat to represent his ability to dodge and weave during combat? Thinking along the lines of Ragnar from the space wolves and wyches from dark eldar. Everything else of him looks great, for who he is, and I appreciate that someone else also thinks he should be reworked to show his dueling prowess

Now, correct me if I am wrong, or this has already been brought up, but with these rules, would I be able to play Black Legion, and still take the other unique characters (Such as Ahriman, Lucius, etc)? With my quick glance at that section of your pdf, I got some mixed signals, so I would like some clarification

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/05/31 22:11:54

Post by: Tyranic Marta

loving seeing the interest in lucius hes a fav of mine too and its a shame hes not better imo,

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 00:06:43

Post by: Just Dave

Amanax wrote:Quick question -

Have you considered giving Lucius a 4++ instead of 5++ in close combat to represent his ability to dodge and weave during combat? Thinking along the lines of Ragnar from the space wolves and wyches from dark eldar. Everything else of him looks great, for who he is, and I appreciate that someone else also thinks he should be reworked to show his dueling prowess

Now, correct me if I am wrong, or this has already been brought up, but with these rules, would I be able to play Black Legion, and still take the other unique characters (Such as Ahriman, Lucius, etc)? With my quick glance at that section of your pdf, I got some mixed signals, so I would like some clarification

Thanks for the query and compliment Amanax; as it is Lucius has a 5++ in close combat but a 4++ against attacks by Independent Characters, which I hope would reflect his duelling prowess?

Apologies for the mixed signals, as it stands characters (except for Vahlinhurst and Cypher/Fabius) have 'Icon of _______' [I.e. Icon of the Black Legion for Abaddon] meaning that their warband selection required for a HQ (by taking an icon of _______ ) is already selected? Does that clarify things for you?

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 01:56:38

Post by: Amanax

Aha! I must have an older version of your pdf, as the one I was looking at had him as just a 5++.

As for the IC, if I'm reading it correctly, I could then take say, both Abaddon and Lucius and the rest of the army would be able to choose between Black Legion and Emperor's Children, or must your HQ choices be of the same warband?

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 11:37:57

Post by: Just Dave

Yep, you're reading it correctly.
They already have their warband chosen for them, are HQ's and therefore allow the rest of the army to choose between either warband, so yes.

Reply by: Samus_aran115 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 14:05:39

Post by: Samus_aran115

I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 15:11:38

Post by: Just Dave

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Hahaha! Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's great knowing people are using it too; thanks a lot! Thank him for me too!
If you could provide any feedback judging by that battle, that'd be appreciated also, thanks.

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 16:14:44

Post by: Amanax

So, I have been reading through the newer versions of your codex Dave, and I was shocked to see that you have priced Daemon Princes so high. I agree they should have been increased slightly, but to get what we have already, you are looking at a drastically increased price. What about dropping base price down to 130 instead of 160? Or do you feel that the extra 30 points is necessary?

On another note however, on the rework for the possessed. I wish I had the models to test them with... I might need to find myself a play dummy to see how they do


I am, also excited to see the Fabius re-work. I always wanted to run a fabius army, but the HQ slot was a bit much. Great thinking on making him elite instead

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 16:29:21

Post by: Just Dave

Whilst yes, they have had a significant price increase, this is to help differentiate them from being an 'auto-include' type of choice and a result of an improved invulnerable save (they're Daemons afterall). My intentions were that the Daemon Princes could be a significant investment, potentially being rock-hard in that you get what you pay for, but now they hopefully don't over-shadow the Chaos Lord but are a separate option. So yes, I do feel a 60pts increase over a lord is necessary IMHO, for that you get +1WS, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1 Inv. & Monstrous Creature (which has its good and its bad). Does that sound more reasonable to you in that light Amanax? Honestly, I REALLY appreciate the feedback, but hopefully you can understand my decision?

Thank you very much regarding the possessed and fabius, the possessed in particular I'm really happy with; they should be the rock-hard assault unit they're supposed to be, but not cheap and potentially unreliable. Or you can spend extra points to make them reliable but arguably worse...
Thanks a lot man. New (possibly) final update coming in soon!

Reply by: Devastator - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 17:12:13

Post by: Devastator

Just Dave wrote:Yep, has been changed.

Huh? Pdf still has that problem (at least for RaW) /nit-pick.

Btw do you mind if i do an army builder file for excel for your codex?

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 17:13:55

Post by: Just Dave

Yeah, but I haven't updated the PDF with the latest version just yet!

What dya mean?

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 17:43:27

Post by: Amanax

Just Dave wrote: Whilst yes, they have had a significant price increase, this is to help differentiate them from being an 'auto-include' type of choice and a result of an improved invulnerable save (they're Daemons afterall). My intentions were that the Daemon Princes could be a significant investment, potentially being rock-hard in that you get what you pay for, but now they hopefully don't over-shadow the Chaos Lord but are a separate option. So yes, I do feel a 60pts increase over a lord is necessary IMHO, for that you get +1WS, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1 Inv. & Monstrous Creature (which has its good and its bad). Does that sound more reasonable to you in that light Amanax? Honestly, I REALLY appreciate the feedback, but hopefully you can understand my decision?

Thank you very much regarding the possessed and fabius, the possessed in particular I'm really happy with; they should be the rock-hard assault unit they're supposed to be, but not cheap and potentially unreliable. Or you can spend extra points to make them reliable but arguably worse...
Thanks a lot man. New (possibly) final update coming in soon!

That is exactly what I wanted to hear A rational explanation that justified the over the top price increase (Compared to what they were). The extra durability from the 4++ plus the built in psyker rules (With the exception of khorne) for 25 points is excellent. However, I do feel that the psychic powers could be altered. I have always been a fan of paying for the powers (Which is sadly disappearing) as it allowed for a more accurate point cost for the model. A more powerful ability costing more, and a weaker one costing less. However, with the flat cost (Being equivalent to the older "powerful" psychic powers) I wonder if some of the lower powers would ever be used. Have you considered changing it to the older system to give more variety and point options?


Unreliable is... not exactly what I am thinking.
I am hoping to test a squad of possessed with attached Fabius, give them all enhanced warriors (for S6 T6 3+ 5++ FNP) and then mark them with chaos undivided to try and push for the higher rolls... >_> Sounds fun to me <_<

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 20:03:09

Post by: Just Dave

PDF updated with latest version. No major changes, just slight alteration in some points costs and clarification etc.


@Amanax
Thanks, I'm glad it all makes sense to you!
Well, the Psyker rules are to try to keep it in-line with the current trends, as was my intentions behind this; to bring it up to date with 5th edition. I understand what you're saying about the psychic powers costing points, but it can work for balancing also. I know what you're saying however; though I have tried to bring all the powers fairly in-line (of what would be around a 25pts/Warptime mark) as things like Doombolt/Gift have been buffed.

Well, that's nice and everything, but enhanced warriors only applies to 'regular' Chaos Space Marines.

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 20:38:47

Post by: Amanax

Missed the "Note on terminology" >_>

You sly devil you. I see what you did there.

Are you sure the pdf file is updated? I just downloaded it, and it is the same version (according to name) as the previous one. V.12 if I recall correctly.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 22:57:33

Post by: Just Dave

Yeah, it's a different one. I didn't change the name as I had it has V.12 (penultimate), so I figured if I change it to V.13 it's no longer penultimate! Kinda shot myself in the foot there, but still... Never know, it could be the final one.

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 23:09:27

Post by: Amanax

Fair enough

I'll be trying to print up a version of your pdf tomorrow should you be alright with that, and go ahead and give it a test run in the next few nights

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 23:12:36

Post by: Just Dave

Man, if you could that would be AWESOME. Thanks amanax, that's really appreciated and any feedback is more than welcome. Cheers man.

Reply by: Zid - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/01 23:26:16

Post by: Zid

looks rad!

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/02 00:21:24

Post by: crazypsyko666

I think you should keep this project open for a while longer. You never know what playtesting will reveal, and it's still gaining a lot of interest.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/02 12:16:13

Post by: Just Dave

Very true, but I guess I just want the final thing 'published' as soon as I can really... It's definitely in the final stretch though.

Reply by: Samus_aran115 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/02 13:33:03

Post by: Samus_aran115

Just Dave wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Hahaha! Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's great knowing people are using it too; thanks a lot! Thank him for me too!
If you could provide any feedback judging by that battle, that'd be appreciated also, thanks.

Everything seemed pretty balanced, actually. He was running a Night lords army with a bunch of raptors in five man units (with that free champion, no less), and I was running "codex" plague army. He beat me, but it had a lot to do with the improved raptors! That's fine though. They definitely SHOULD be that good.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/02 19:52:00

Post by: Just Dave

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Hahaha! Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's great knowing people are using it too; thanks a lot! Thank him for me too!
If you could provide any feedback judging by that battle, that'd be appreciated also, thanks.

Everything seemed pretty balanced, actually. He was running a Night lords army with a bunch of raptors in five man units (with that free champion, no less), and I was running "codex" plague army. He beat me, but it had a lot to do with the improved raptors! That's fine though. They definitely SHOULD be that good.

Great! I'm really glad that someone's been using it and that you had fun doing so, despite losing! Wonderful! Cheers!

Side note: The 5-man free champion only applies to the unit 'Chaos Space Marines', rather than all units. See the 'note on terminology' at the very beginning of the special rules section. On this note I am thinking of changing the name of the standard Chaos Space Marine unit to avoid confusion...
Thanks Samus.

Reply by: Chaos_Duality - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/02 20:30:23

Post by: Chaos_Duality

Love what you've done with the CSM, the fluff really shows!

I've been writing potential lists from it for a few days & a friend has used it in battle (1500 I believe, against Vanilla SM); he lost one & won the other though he didn't give many details. Iirc he used a previous version but, eh, it proves this fandex isn't an auto-win ;D.

I would like to say however that one thing is poking me in the eye (& only one thing mind!) & that's the Chaos Termies. While a great all round unit, in terms of fluff I wouldn't use them in a Death Guard force. Even though they (used to?) pride themselves on their Terminators, I'd have to take 5 for a Gift...when I'd prefer to run them as 7 for, well obvious reasons.

As I said it's not much but I thought I'd speak my mind :3.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/02 20:53:29

Post by: Just Dave

Chaos_Duality wrote:Love what you've done with the CSM, the fluff really shows!

I've been writing potential lists from it for a few days & a friend has used it in battle (1500 I believe, against Vanilla SM); he lost one & won the other though he didn't give many details. Iirc he used a previous version but, eh, it proves this fandex isn't an auto-win ;D.

I would like to say however that one thing is poking me in the eye (& only one thing mind!) & that's the Chaos Termies. While a great all round unit, in terms of fluff I wouldn't use them in a Death Guard force. Even though they (used to?) pride themselves on their Terminators, I'd have to take 5 for a Gift...when I'd prefer to run them as 7 for, well obvious reasons.

As I said it's not much but I thought I'd speak my mind :3.

Great! Thanks A LOT for the feedback man. Don't worry about speaking your mind, honestly. All feedback is welcome.

In regards to the termies, I think that's understandable, however I fear that they could be in danger of becoming OP at sizes larger than 5-men IMHO. It could also be a difficult rule to implement I suspect. I'd have to recommend that you just go for 5 (which doesn't break the fluff, and potential FNP is pretty fluffy) or just go for a standard unit of 7. Apologies.

Thanks a lot for the feedback man.

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/03 01:32:41

Post by: Amanax

You could always take a unit of five, and then attach two characters to it, making it seven... >_>

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 09:26:44

Post by: Just Dave

Just bumping the thread and showing off one of the more unique army lists - the Alpha Legion.

HQ - Chaos Lord - Icon of the Alpha Legion - Wings, 2x Lightning Claw, Alpha Lord - 180pts


Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Grenade Launcher - Champion w/ Power Weapon - 227pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts


Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts


1496pts


Good? Bad? Too Good? Thoughts?

Reply by: Samus_aran115 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 13:01:25

Post by: Samus_aran115

Just Dave wrote:Just bumping the thread and showing off one of the more unique army lists - the Alpha Legion.

HQ - Chaos Lord - Icon of the Alpha Legion - Wings, 2x Lightning Claw, Alpha Lord - 180pts


Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Grenade Launcher - Champion w/ Power Weapon - 227pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts


Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts


1496pts


Good? Bad? Too Good? Thoughts?

Too good! Four troops choices (totalling 10 melta guns and four flamers), 6 missile launchers, 6 autocannons, and a flying dude! You have absolutely no tank, but then again, you don't really need it. Very nice.

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 18:02:55

Post by: Durza

I dunno, won't the Lord get blasted to pieces with no unit to join? Thinking of fighting GK specifically here, but a Paladin based army would be difficult for this one to beat.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 18:54:24

Post by: Just Dave

Hmmm... I think that the Operatives will need some sort of change made to them; I'll bump up the guns by 5pts each for a start at least. I fear that that list may be too good; I don't want to rely on it being vulnerable to a uncommon build (Paladins), although it may be quite brittle due to low body count...

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 21:16:09

Post by: Amanax

Been play testing a bit here and there (Still haven't actually been able to print off the codex :( )

I like your fix to abaddon, however I was wondering, did you consider making it just so that his weapon won't rebel at all?

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 21:39:18

Post by: Just Dave

Cool, cheers Amanax! Anything to report from your playtesting if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks man. Yes, yes I did. I decided it's more balanced and fluffy if he weapon still rebelled; it's not as bad as most Daemon Weapons, but it does prevent him from kicking the crap out of everyone he meets, also helps keep him below 300pts. I remember a bit of fluff before where Drach'nyen almost got him killed too, so it's a nice bit of character IMHO. I completely understand what you're saying though.

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/07 22:11:41

Post by: Amanax

I haven't found really any post heresy fluff for abaddon, and what I did find he was always in pretty god control of everything he wanted to control, so I figured the blade would be along those lines.

The only reason I suggest it, is exactly for balance issues. The tests we've done have been to see how he compares to other models of his weight class so to speak. So far, he doesn't seem to be earning his 295 points.

Matched up against Draigo, Mephiston, and Nightbringer so far... Personally, I don't feel he is matching up, as he is more expensive then mephiston and draigo. At least his defeat by nightbringer was warnted by being outweighed by 65 points.

I was thinking at least make him equivalent to the Sanguinor from the blood angels (while still keeping him fluffy). he'd lose some things to gain others, like losing out on the 3++ and gain the ability to attach to squads, lose jump infantry statis to gain...? etc etc)

What do you think?

Reply by: Tekeino - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/08 02:44:16

Post by: Tekeino

I love it, very very good, not a huge fan of warbands, but you have dont the best version ive seen of them so far.

Although one of the reasons im bitter about the warbands as it completely wrecks my alpha legion codex!

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/08 03:18:09

Post by: crazypsyko666

All I know is that after the heresy Abaddon lost his arms somewhere on Cadia. Poor guy. =C

Maybe you could let him lose one of his arms instead of taking a wound! That would be fluffy! (Joking, of course.)

Reply by: Durza - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/08 14:24:57

Post by: Durza

He never seems to match up well against the Imperial character specifically made to be better for the same points cost, Mr. Power Fist, either. What if instead of taking all of his attacks in one turn, he could make one with his sword that counted as Strength 10 and automatically inflicted Instant Death/ Armour Penetration. The Strength 10 is just for Eternal Warriors.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/08 17:24:24

Post by: Just Dave

Tekeino wrote:I love it, very very good, not a huge fan of warbands, but you have dont the best version ive seen of them so far.

Although one of the reasons im bitter about the warbands as it completely wrecks my alpha legion codex!

Thank you. I know what you're saying though; I'm not a fan of warbands in that I'd dislike such a large, in-codex rule that effectively splits it further, but listening to feedback of the previous Codices and stuff, warbands seemed the way to go. I did decide however that I wouldn't want warbands to restrict or force the player to do anything; ultimately it's to give them a nudge in the right direction and enable them to be as fluffy on un-fluffy as they like. That's also why I included the optional special rule for each; to allow them to be more characterful to their warband/legion if they wanted, but to not force them too.
I must admit, I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out.

Sorry man, you can just do your Codex should you want to anyway, of course. It could just be fun (if time consuming)!

Amanax wrote:I haven't found really any post heresy fluff for abaddon, and what I did find he was always in pretty god control of everything he wanted to control, so I figured the blade would be along those lines.

The only reason I suggest it, is exactly for balance issues. The tests we've done have been to see how he compares to other models of his weight class so to speak. So far, he doesn't seem to be earning his 295 points.

Matched up against Draigo, Mephiston, and Nightbringer so far... Personally, I don't feel he is matching up, as he is more expensive then mephiston and draigo. At least his defeat by nightbringer was warnted by being outweighed by 65 points.

I was thinking at least make him equivalent to the Sanguinor from the blood angels (while still keeping him fluffy). he'd lose some things to gain others, like losing out on the 3++ and gain the ability to attach to squads, lose jump infantry statis to gain...? etc etc)

What do you think?

Really? Damn. I know when people did 1 on 1's before (with the existing character stats) Abaddon would come out top, admittedly however this was just after the Space Wolves were released, meaning there was no Draigo/Swarm Lord/Mephiston or whomever. I may take him back down to 285pts or I may prevent rebellion as you suggested. Would you mind giving me any more detail on this or doing further play testing if that's not too much to ask man?

I remember a piece of fluff before where Abaddon basically duelled Eldrad Ulthran; he got Eldrad to the floor and was going to finish him off, but Eldrad managed to put the edge of his staff against his neck. The Daemon Sword was trying to get Eldrad and pulled Abaddon towards him; ultimately whilst bringing itself (and therefore Abaddon) closer to Eldrad, it was also pulling Abaddon onto Eldrads spear/staff. In the end, the Chaos Gods effectively plucked abaddon out of there. IIRC this was in a White Dwarf article before which would examine 'heroes and villains'.

Cheers for the food for thought regarding abaddon mate. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:All I know is that after the heresy Abaddon lost his arms somewhere on Cadia. Poor guy. =C

Maybe you could let him lose one of his arms instead of taking a wound! That would be fluffy! (Joking, of course.)

Where did you hear this?!

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Amanax

Yeah, I was going to do a few more character 1 v 1 sometime today, I'll PM you the play by play when I'm done.


Abaddon vs Swarmlord
Abaddon vs Asurmen

Kharn vs Khain (lol)
Kharn vs Grimaldus
Kharn vs Lilith
Kharn vs Eldrad

Should be some good matches

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/08 21:17:05

Post by: Just Dave

Sweet. Thanks Amanax. Much (much) appreciated man. If you could test Lucius against some that'd be good also/instead, as he's actually designed to take out characters, whereas the other two are supposed to take out anything...

Thanks Amanax, I'm not holding my breath for Abaddon vs. the Swarmlord though, I expect he could take the Sanguinor however...

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/08 21:25:30

Post by: Amanax

Yeah... swarmlord is the expected winner in that bout, which is too bad. In my opinion, those two should be on even ground. But his cursed re-roll successful invuln save rule makes that a bit harsh.
Really? I was avoiding the Abaddon v Sanguinor battle because I thought it would be awfully one sided in Sanguinor's side. Maybe I'll have to go re-read his rules to see if I am remembering things incorrectly.


Lucius is planned to go up in the next few days, though I am still not sure who to match him up against. Anyone in particular you want to see if he can handle?
In fact, if there are any characters you want tested out in this fashion against any one in particular, let me know and I'll do my best to fit as many in tonight as I can (Probably will take place early morning for you guys in England though)

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 16:22:08

Post by: crazypsyko666

You don't know? Check out http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Abaddon, it's a wiki for all the crazy fanfic stuff they came up with. Some of it's actually really funny, since it's not actually 4chan, but the good stuff from it. (still a lot of NSFW, though).

Abaddon's probably got the funniest fanfics on the web. They cast him as some sort of comical supervillan who always has some new death machine made out of cotton candy or something like that.

As for the arms, a lot of people have had trouble with them breaking off of the model, since they're pretty flimsy, and they like to make fun of that and RAGE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, perhaps you could illustrate this "saved by the gods" thing by giving Abaddon a 6+ or 5+ FNP-style save for anything once he's on his last wound. This could cancel out rebellions, psychic powers or attacks. It would make him tougher without increasing his attacks further.

Reply by: Praxiss - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 16:36:40

Post by: Praxiss

Something similar to "Bionics"

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 18:29:10

Post by: Just Dave

OK, well judging from some of the feedback, I'm going to change Abaddon's DW rebellion; finding an almost middle-ground between its current status and the idea of no rebellion. I'm going to change it so it can still rebel, but if it does so it no longer causes a wound (but does loose the effects of the weapon). Sound reasonable to everyone?
I may also change Lucius' sword to re-roll wounds rather than Str5.

Thanks for the HQ comparisons again Amanax, I guess for Lucius I'd probably suggest characters of a similar points level and then tougher characters also. I don't expect him to take out Mephiston or the Swarmlord, but the intention was for him to be skilled against IC's, so most should be a reasonable test. Maybe the likes of Astorath/Dante, Calgar/Sicarius, Grimnar/Ragnar, Asurman/Yriel, Vect/Lelith etc. and/or the guys you suggested for Kharn of course. Cheers man.

Reply by: Saintspirit - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 18:43:59

Post by: Saintspirit

A extremely tiny thing, but I though I'd point out that you have written Mark of the Alpha Legion instead of Icon of the Alpha Legion on page 4, at the rules of the Alpha Lord.
Also, you should edit so that Kharns attack rolls of 1 misses if there are no friendly units in the same combat as he is.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 19:17:42

Post by: Just Dave

Saintspirit wrote:A extremely tiny thing, but I though I'd point out that you have written Mark of the Alpha Legion instead of Icon of the Alpha Legion on page 4, at the rules of the Alpha Lord.
Also, you should edit so that Kharns attack rolls of 1 misses if there are no friendly units in the same combat as he is.

Good spot, I shall change that! Cheers Saint, even minor corrections like that are welcomed.

I'm unsure about changing the Kharn one as surely a roll of 1 is a miss anyway, but I'll change it anyways.

Reply by: Amanax - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 19:24:05

Post by: Amanax

Just Dave wrote:OK, well judging from some of the feedback, I'm going to change Abaddon's DW rebellion; finding an almost middle-ground between its current status and the idea of no rebellion. I'm going to change it so it can still rebel, but if it does so it no longer causes a wound (but does loose the effects of the weapon). Sound reasonable to everyone?
I may also change Lucius' sword to re-roll wounds rather than Str5.

Thanks for the HQ comparisons again Amanax, I guess for Lucius I'd probably suggest characters of a similar points level and then tougher characters also. I don't expect him to take out Mephiston or the Swarmlord, but the intention was for him to be skilled against IC's, so most should be a reasonable test. Maybe the likes of Astorath/Dante, Calgar/Sicarius, Grimnar/Ragnar, Asurman/Yriel, Vect/Lelith etc. and/or the guys you suggested for Kharn of course. Cheers man.

Sounds good. As you saw from the two battles I sent you last night, there wasn't really middle ground. He either owned face, or got it torn off. And both of those matches are cheaper than he is, and will recieve even more assistance from bodyguards than Abaddon will from his terminator units.

Sorry I didn't get to Kharn's matches last night, I'll try and fit them in tonight though, and see if I can't do some Lucius testing.

Reply by: Saintspirit - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 19:49:09

Post by: Saintspirit

Just Dave wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:A extremely tiny thing, but I though I'd point out that you have written Mark of the Alpha Legion instead of Icon of the Alpha Legion on page 4, at the rules of the Alpha Lord.
Also, you should edit so that Kharns attack rolls of 1 misses if there are no friendly units in the same combat as he is.

Good spot, I shall change that! Cheers Saint, even minor corrections like that are welcomed.

I'm unsure about changing the Kharn one as surely a roll of 1 is a miss anyway, but I'll change it anyways.

That is mainly to avoid conflicts about whether those attacks would hit himself or not, I guess.

Something else I noticed is that Noise Marines have Power Weaons for free.

Might be unnessecary, but couldn't you add the Slaaneshi Land Raider Dominator (where noise marines have a rock concert on top of a Land Raider)? Or is that one too silly..?

Honersstodnt wrote:Land Raider Dominator - 210 pts

AV - 14/13/12 , open topped

Weapons: TL heavy bolter, 2x sonic lances
sonic lance: single shot: str 8 ap1 lance 36" heavy 1
.............disbursed-shot: str 4 ap3 24" heavy 3 blast (small)

Special Rule: Domination - All friendly units within 12" get +1 initiative (stacks with other bonuses) as they rock out to the sound pounding out of this machine. All enemy units within 12" at the start of their turn must pass a toughness test, or suffer d6 wounds (armor saves apply) as their organs are pulped by the overwhelming bass.

Special Rule: Laser Lights - The noise marines piloting this vehicle show their devotion to the god of excess by putting on a badass death metal concert from the top of the land raider (hence the lower armor), complete with laser lights. Anyone assaulting the vehicle always requires a minimum of 5+ to hit the vehicle, as the lasers blind attackers.

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/09 21:48:23

Post by: crazypsyko666

Saintspirit wrote:Might be unnessecary, but couldn't you add the Slaaneshi Land Raider Dominator (where noise marines have a rock concert on top of a Land Raider)? Or is that one too silly..?

Honersstodnt wrote:Land Raider Dominator - 210 pts

AV - 14/13/12 , open topped

Weapons: TL heavy bolter, 2x sonic lances
sonic lance: single shot: str 8 ap1 lance 36" heavy 1
.............disbursed-shot: str 4 ap3 24" heavy 3 blast (small)

Special Rule: Domination - All friendly units within 12" get +1 initiative (stacks with other bonuses) as they rock out to the sound pounding out of this machine. All enemy units within 12" at the start of their turn must pass a toughness test, or suffer d6 wounds (armor saves apply) as their organs are pulped by the overwhelming bass.

Special Rule: Laser Lights - The noise marines piloting this vehicle show their devotion to the god of excess by putting on a badass death metal concert from the top of the land raider (hence the lower armor), complete with laser lights. Anyone assaulting the vehicle always requires a minimum of 5+ to hit the vehicle, as the lasers blind attackers.

That made me smile.

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/10 03:37:09

Post by: Tyranic Marta

likewise


Automatically Appended Next Post:
likewise

Reply by: Praxiss - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/10 12:20:57

Post by: Praxiss

Love it, someone make the model!!

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/10 16:55:33

Post by: Just Dave

@ Saint: Yeah, I know what you mean, I remember the GW FaQ had to address the issue of Kharn's attacks, so I guess I'll clarify it. Cheers!

Whilst cool, I don't intend to add that Land Raider!

As ever, all feedback is welcome!

Reply by: purplefood - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/10 16:59:03

Post by: purplefood

Shiny...
I like this codex...

Reply by: kenshin620 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/10 21:21:45

Post by: kenshin620

Took a look at this codex, I think its great. Anyone think this khorne rhino rush list is viable? Dont know what to do for the last 50

165-Chaos Lord: Icon of the World Eaters, Chief Slaughterer, Mark of Khorne, Power Maul, Melta Bombs
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons

1949

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 07:38:39

Post by: Tyranic Marta

think that opentopping the rhino's would make it exponentially better, Instant assault vehicles

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 11:40:20

Post by: Just Dave

kenshin620 wrote:Took a look at this codex, I think its great. Anyone think this khorne rhino rush list is viable? Dont know what to do for the last 50

165-Chaos Lord: Icon of the World Eaters, Chief Slaughterer, Mark of Khorne, Power Maul, Melta Bombs
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons

1949

Thanks man, glad you like it. Did you find it easy to use in regards to the Warbands rule specifically?
I think the list looks pretty solid; I think I'd echo the idea of making the rhino's open-topped. You may also consider MoK on the Chosen for fluff purposes?

Cheers Kenshin!



I too have made an army list for what I would have as my Emperors Children army. The beauty of it for me is that every unit is multi-purpose and can perform several different roles.

HQ - Lucius the Eternal - 190pts

Elites - 6 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Hit & Run) - Mark of Slaanesh, 3 Meltaguns, 2 Flamers - Chaos Rhino - 217pts

Elites - 6 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Hit & Run) - Mark of Slaanesh, 3 Meltaguns, 2 Flamers - Chaos Rhino - 217pts

Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Slaanesh, 2 Meltaguns - Chaos Rhino - 215pts

Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Slaanesh, 2 Meltaguns - Chaos Rhino - 215pts

Troops - 6 Noise Marines - Champion w/ Gift of the Gods & Meltabombs Blast Master - Chaos Rhino - 192pts

Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Warp Cannon Sponsons - 120pts

Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Warp Cannon Sponsons - 120pts

Total - 1496pts

Ironically, all the equivalent list in the current Chaos Space Marine Codex is cheaper IIRC.

There's some changes and update to the PDF coming later, anyone with good detective skills and a calculate may be able to figure on of the changes out from the list I just posted...

Reply by: Devastator - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 12:56:16

Post by: Devastator

1k list with Rubrics

Sorcerer w/Master sorcerer

9 Rubric Marines
Rhino

9 Rubric Marines
Rhino

18 heretics
Aspiring champion
2xMelta

18 heretics
Aspiring champion
2xMelta

Predator AC/Sponson LCs

994 p

Reply by: kenshin620 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 17:33:48

Post by: kenshin620

Oh wow I just noticed rhinos can be open topped, that'll make the zerkers even scarier!

Until of course a buttload of autocannons take aim

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 18:15:26

Post by: Just Dave

Latest (hopefully final) Version of the PDF is up.


Few changes, the main ones being:
- Abaddon 285pts and his weapon no longer wounds him on a rebellion.
- Vehicles cannot be open-topped and daemonically possessed.
- Khorne Bezerkers have a new rule (Blood Rage), which is intended to help balance them a bit due to the boost of chain axes.

As ever, please provide feedback and comment. Cheers.

kenshin620 wrote:Oh wow I just noticed rhinos can be open topped, that'll make the zerkers even scarier!

Until of course a buttload of autocannons take aim

You don't get anything for free in this world.

Reply by: Devastator - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 18:19:23

Post by: Devastator

You know, you could just have said that you were not changing the possessed wording rather than treating me like some annoying idiot.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/12 22:08:43

Post by: Just Dave

I honestly thought I had changed it. I'm gonna look over it now to see if it's worth changing/solving, but I honestly thought I had changed it. I can't keep track of everything.
I'm glad you're fully capable of jumping to conclusions however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right, I've changed the Rending rule for the possessed slightly as you suggested. I don't really think there's a need to go further with it IMHO as the intention behind the rule is obvious!

Reply by: Wakshaani - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/13 03:36:44

Post by: Wakshaani

Just grabbed this yesterday for a lookover and ... I'm torn. On the one hand, you've put a ton of work into this and it shows, but on the other, there are some issues that I feel are ... large.

Tomorrow, I'll sit down with a printout and illustrate where I feel you need some tweaks but, ultimately, its your project, so feel free to tell me to jump into a lake.

The biggest issue, however, is one that, I feel, knocks the whole thing off the tracks... Big Four cultmarines as troops. Khorne Berserkers, Nurgle Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and good ol' Emperr's Children (Not all of whom are noise marines, and good on you for remembering that!) should be elites, rather than troops, UNLESS you're playing one of those four cults. This could be dealt with with the Special Character Fix (I know, I know, the Icon system moves away from that, which I understand many players dislike, but, it's the mechanic that they're using, so, it should be replicated, even with a pinched nose.) This keeps the focus on Chaos Marines, and allows a dribble of the cool stuff, or, if you FOCUS on the cool stuff, you get a reward of having your troops be Right 'Ard. Troop selections in fifth are your scoring units, the absolute key to victory, while the other units are contesting ... and the cult forces are better reflected, by most armies, as 'special forces' akin to assault marines or Immortals or Howling Banshees, rather than plunked down like tac marines, basic ork boyz, or imperial guardsmen. They just can't get placed into the usual Troops selection, which should be just Chaos Marines and Heretics.

That's the one, big, glaring problem.

Most of the others are niggling details, like the Daemon Prince's wings being underpriced (Should be 60, akin to the Hive Tyrant he resembles) or psychic powers being a choose one/use two instead of choose two/use one like other forces. But those minor quibbles are better detailed in a longer post tomorrow.

But the Troops issue has gotta be fixed.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/13 16:45:38

Post by: Just Dave

Of course, you're welcome to provide any feedback, positive or negative. I've keep saying all constructive feedback is welcome and I mean it; I'll listen and consider what you have to say; I can't say I'll agree with it as the Codex is in it's final stages and you have some 'large issues' with it, but as I said, I'll listen to your opinion. Thanks for the honesty man, particularly as it's said in such an in-depth and clear way too.

I have to say, although I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying, I disagree regarding the troops thing. I'll explain my reasoning as you have yours of course.
The Cult Units as troops isn't something new for Chaos Space Marines, obviously it's been in their previous Codex and considering 4/9 Legions are based on the 4 gods, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest around 25% of Chaos forces may have these at their heart of the force; similarly, they are also used as the heart of the forces in many players armies. Unless you're based around one of the 'big 4' Legions/gods however, the Cult Unit rules means that they stay rare and not the heart and soul.

I (and many others) find the special characters method very clunky and to me, the force-multiplying aspect contrasts to the egotistical/selfish manner of Chaos leaders (notice how few confer bonuses to other units) whilst also imposing quite specific restrictions. Similarly, the special character FoC unlocks typically only apply to unusual forces that don't actually fit the fluff; for example, armies composed almost entirely of Wolf Guard, Sanguinary Guard and Paladins are VERY rare and can only occur once for each faction in the fluff. Technically, an army composed of 30 Sanguinary Guard is impossible according to the fluff. Armies composed in this manner are rare in game and fluff, whereas armies composed largely of cult units aren't anywhere near as rare.
The other things I see wrong with your suggestion (IMHO) are A) Legion rules existed before, B) the Elites slot is pretty well accommodated as it is, C) Gamesworkshop isn't opposed to large army specific rules these days (it seems), such as Power through Pain, Grey Knights, Faith Points, Chapter Tactics, Phase Out etc.
The Cult troops are too expensive to be too common and numerous, whilst the standard CSM's are a powerful, cheaper and arguably more efficient and effective.; they also get a lot of bonuses themselves.


I do however agree regarding the Daemon Prince; I didn't know how much Tyrants wings costed, however 60pts and the Dreadknights teleporter does suggest the Daemon Prince should have pricier wings; at least it will encourage a variety of builds too.
I'll probably take the Prince down to 135pts, with wings costing an extra 50pts or so. Maybe 130/55 or something. Good idea man.

As I said; your opinion and feedback is fully welcomed, honestly. I'll consider all your opinions/feedback, as I said I can't guarantee I'll agree with them (as I'm sure you'll understand), but I really appreciate the feedback and the depth you're going into. Thanks Wakshaani.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/14 22:19:18

Post by: Just Dave

Here's an example renegade army; focussing on Alpha-striking as I believe a Huron-led army would do:

- HQ - Huron Blackheart - 180pts

- Elites - 5 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (relentless) - Multimelta, 2 Meltaguns - Rhino - 175pts

- Elites - 5 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (relentless) - Multimelta, 2 Meltaguns - Rhino - 175pts

- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 plasma guns, Icon of Chaos Undivided - Rhino - 220pts

- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Undivided - Rhino - 210pts

- Troops - 7 Plague Marines - 2 Flamers, Champion w/ Power Fist - Rhino - 231pts (with Huron)

- Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Cannons, Icon of Chaos Undivided - 155pts

- Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Autocannons, Icon of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

1491pts

Reply by: Zub - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/18 15:26:37

Post by: Zub

Hello, people call me Zub.
English is not my mother tongue, so I apologize for mistakes.
Sometimes I read forum on dakka but I have never needed to make an account here. Until now, when I saw your great codex. As chaos player I am really pissed off for what they have done to CHSM in 4th and it seems that your codex fixes majority of that. You have made a great work here and it would take too much time and space to write all the fings I like on it. I am just very excited to try and play with it.
I put it on our local WH40k forum and discussed it with my friends. Here are my ideas and arguments as well as arguments of other people on our forum.
I know that there is really many of it and I hope that you will not be offended.


Icon of the Iron Warriors
- 5pts is too cheap for lascannons, it would be much better to make all heavy weapons cheaper for them, for about -5pts each, cause they use them too, maybe make them cheaper even for havocs, to encourage their use
- IW could use an option to trade fast attack for 1 more heavy slot to be even able to use all that possible havocs and bassies
- BS6 for one heavy is odd and I don’t see much use for it
- it would be nice to alow IW characters to take servo arms like they used to be
- an ability to take siege dreadnoughts with FA13 (about +20pts?)
- miss ability to take another heavy weapon instead of special one

Icon of the Alpha Legion
- it would be better both fluffwise and gamewise if you remove taking infiltrating chosen as troops and instead offer all AL CHSM (with icon undivided) to take infiltration for 1-2 pts.(as additional veteran skill for chosen), because the way it is now, players would only take chosen and operatives and no normal marines, also AL is not known for a great number of chosen but for ability to infiltrate as the whole force
- also an ability to infiltrate or scout other units such as dreadnoughts would be great
- i don’t know if Alpha lord is worth 30pts, but maybe I just have to give it a try

Icon of the Renegade
- chaos master is really good and if rolled in high number it works like alpha legion icon

Icon of the Death Guard
- Death guardian would be much better if it works for all units in bauble of some less inches

Icon of the World Eaters
- Chief Slaughterer, now this is the first OP I have found, being it only counter atack it wold be ballanced but giving another attack to Khornate marines, who already have enough is way too much overkill

Icon of the Emperor’s Children
- Lord Commander - I really dont know if giving them both fleet and furious charge isn’t too much, maybe let the choose one at the start of the turn

Veteran Skills
- Furious charge is missing :(

Kharn The Betrayer
- people here think, that Eternal warrior is too good for him, personally I don’t know

Typhus
- manreaper - autohit at S5 and instant death, that’s way too much, you kill a bunch of marines and their captain in one swing, maybe s4 and instant death or s5 and autohit

I would consider to add some more characters maybe Zhufor the Impaler and Arkos the Faithless from FW Siege of Wraks

Chaos Lord
- I would let him to take more gifts than just one, in the old book (meaning 3rd ed.) he hat a point restriction, same with champion, which could take less points
- the problem here is that eternal warrior is too good to take anything else
- this will also add more variability and modelling possibilities to to characters

Daemon prince
- this guy is a big problem, it is useless without deamon weapon, because you made him so expansive and extremely killy with it
- in games a played and saw, DP functions mainly as a fire magnet and you made him 50 point more expansive
- with daemon weapon he is ridiculously good, 4(5) +d6 A on S8 with undivided weapon is bad
- I could see him as 130 pts naked with wings for 25 and possibility to take more chaos gifts

That brings us to another problem, which is Undivided DW, +2S is OP, old +1S was more balanced.

Chaos Sorcerer
- I liked more the previous system of choosing powers with different costs for each, because frankly, some are just better then others

Chaos Champion
- nobody would pay 65 pts for this

Chaos Terminators
- that odd think with 5 champs is bad, just let people to take how many champs they want and to kit them with any gifts they want

Chaos Dreadnought
- maybe let him take double aoutocans to make chaos rifle dread or allow it only to renegades
- nurgle dreads should not have FA13, that should be left to IW, you cold maybe give them some pestilence weaponry or permanent 5+ (fly) cover
- it would be nice if we could have some elite slot dread and a heavy slot dread like each other SM have, maybe something like venerabele (ancient) dread in elite and normal dread in heavy, or normal in elite and siege (IW?) in heavy

Mark of Chaos Undivided:
Gains BS5 & WS5
20pts.
- that’s expansive, especially compared to khorne reroll

Grenade Launcher
- this should be renamed to astartes Grenade Launcher to enable cultists and operatives to take normal (IG) Grenade Launcher

Heretics
- why don’t they have heavy weapons, it would make much more sense then HW in operatives
- don’t really think they should scout

Khorne Bezerkers
- plenty people will argue that they are too good with chain rending axes and that they should remain as they are

Rubric Marines
- 20 pts for sorcerer is too cheap (maybe 30 or make him buy his powers)
- 9 guys in a squad should not make sorcerer free but cheaper (because it is more expansive then it other cult squads)
- all is dust is odd, maybe give them 3+ reroll agains shooting and give them 4++ against hits (even CC) that negate their armor but are not twice their T too, it will reflect that smaller gunfire or small holes from power weapons cannot destroy the armor but a hit from a rocket or power fist smashes it apart

Operatives (Alpha Legion Only)
- really miss icon of glory here

Chaos Rhino
- Open-topped - this was the greatest problem that guys I have talked and me too had with this codex
- it is really TOOOOOOOO good to even think about it, why should anybody take non-Open-topped rhino? O-t vehicle are so much better, just imagine it, assaulty units (zerkers) will jump from it and charge (18 line) and they are way too better than orks jumping from their O-t wagons and every other unit that is shooty will buy it as a cheap moving bunker, not to mention chosen first turn charge (12+12+2+6= 32 charge)
-Frag Maw – 5pts – why on rhino?

Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Obliterators
- rules are confusing
- somebody wants his autocanons back, but i don’t see why

Defiler
- you want people to pay for vomit canon, which is worse than battle canon

Basilisk
- why 15 pts more than IG?
- why BS4, IW let always thralls to operate them?
- I miss ability to swap heavy bolter for heavy flamer like IG can

Greater Daemon
- +1 ws doesn’t justify +30 pts

Winds of Chaos
- kill on 3+ is way too good, I would stick to old 4+

Warp Rift
- there should be stated if it means completed 12” or uncompleted 12”
- can be OP if you play TS and give it to all your little sorcs in squads and dreads, you will have a whole army jumping around
- penetration on dread is too much imo, maybe glance?

Bolt of Change
- S10?!??! it should be on par with daemons, which have S8, there were many arguments here against it

Dirge caster
- also many arguments here, -2LD is too good (i know -1DL is too bad)

Gift of the Gods
- there should be stated where the 1 result chaos spawn will be placed
- it would be also fun if a deapstriking terminators turn into spawns, that the spawns also deep strike

Cheers and thanks a lot!

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

39868

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/18 21:07:04

Post by: iproxtaco

Fantastic Codex, is it alright if I use it in friendly games and print the whole thing off? I dunno if it would cross lines or whatever, but I tested it in my local and most of them agreed that it is a lot better than most of the codices GW have made and allowed me to use it in a few games later on.

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

34885

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/18 22:43:14

Post by: Tyranic Marta

Wow Zub that was a massive post,

loving the ideas here and its highlighted things for me that were niggling that i couldnt put my finger on, love it

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

17072

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/18 22:43:30

Post by: crazypsyko666

Does anyone have any battle reports with this book?

Reply by: Asgeirr Darkwolf - click to view full reply 

25798

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/19 16:18:39

Post by: Asgeirr Darkwolf

Dave, you really should apply for a job at GW. Sell your soul to make life better for us CSM players!

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

20867

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/19 17:35:27

Post by: Just Dave

iproxtaco wrote:Fantastic Codex, is it alright if I use it in friendly games and print the whole thing off? I dunno if it would cross lines or whatever, but I tested it in my local and most of them agreed that it is a lot better than most of the codices GW have made and allowed me to use it in a few games later on.

That's absolutely fine man; that's more than fine. That's great and the whole purpose of the thing. I'm likely to make a few changes soon (some possibly as a result of Zub's feedback) so somethings may change slightly, but seriously that's absolutely fine man. i really appreciate how you've been spreading the word within Dakka too and if you could report your experiences with it to me, that'd be wonderful. Thanks a lot man!

Zub wrote:Hello, people call me Zub.
English is not my mother tongue, so I apologize for mistakes.
Sometimes I read forum on dakka but I have never needed to make an account here. Until now, when I saw your great codex. As chaos player I am really pissed off for what they have done to CHSM in 4th and it seems that your codex fixes majority of that. You have made a great work here and it would take too much time and space to write all the fings I like on it. I am just very excited to try and play with it.
I put it on our local WH40k forum and discussed it with my friends. Here are my ideas and arguments as well as arguments of other people on our forum.
I know that there is really many of it and I hope that you will not be offended.

Hey Zub, cheers for the (in-depth feedback), I'm not offended; honestly. I appreciate you spreading this Codex around and showing it to your mates etc. that's really appreciated; if you could give them my response too that'd be great.
Just checking, other than what you've commented on here, I get the impression you're very happy with it otherwise?

I'll respond to what you're saying in similar depth to try and show my reasoning and efforts to balance the rules, to hopefully help you and your buddies see why I've made things like they are. As I said, I'm not offended or rejecting your advice, honestly, but I will respond with my reasoning/thoughts and make changes to the 'dex where I see fit. Thanks Zub!

Icon of the Iron Warriors
- 5pts is too cheap for lascannons, it would be much better to make all heavy weapons cheaper for them, for about -5pts each, cause they use them too, maybe make them cheaper even for havocs, to encourage their use
- IW could use an option to trade fast attack for 1 more heavy slot to be even able to use all that possible havocs and bassies
- BS6 for one heavy is odd and I don’t see much use for it
- it would be nice to alow IW characters to take servo arms like they used to be
- an ability to take siege dreadnoughts with FA13 (about +20pts?)
- miss ability to take another heavy weapon instead of special one

- The reasoning behind the Lascannon being 5pts, is that Heavy Weapons for CSM squads are rarely taken due to their price and inherent drawbacks; with a heavy weapon (as they are unable to combat-squad like loyalists), the rest of the unit works for the heavy weapon, basically making them a 150pts+ weapon platform; they cannot move and shoot, they cannot target other enemies (bolters are anti-infantry, lascannons anti-tank) and they struggle to move onto objectives; few CSM squads take heavy weapons and instead go for a 2nd plasma/melta/flamer, which is still an option here with the cheaper meltagun. Does that make it sound more reasonable to you?
- I never intended tbh to implement the extra HS slot; the Iron Warriors were arguably the most powerful force from their previous Codex which may or may not be a result of this, but IMHO the loss of FA slots isn't really a draw-back as the player wouldn't be taking them anyway. With the Lascannon, you lose mobility, versatility and more, but with the FoC switch, the IW player only loses something he wouldn't use anyway; therefore it's not really a loss IMHO.
- with a BS6, you could potentially have Basilisks, Defilers and Vindicators effectively not have their weapons scatter; their biggest problem. I.e. You're Str10/9 large blast could land dead-on target. Similarly, it would allow Obliterators and Havocs to hit on a 2+. IMHO it's actually one of the better Warband powers.
- I can understand that desire, but IMHO it wouldn't make a big-enough difference to warrant implementing it. I honestly understand, but it would be of limited use and effect in-game...
- Well, you can now get Dreadnoughts with a Siege Hammer (Iron Warriors-ish) and a Dreadnought (and Defiler) with MoN is FA13 for what it's worth?

Icon of the Alpha Legion
- it would be better both fluffwise and gamewise if you remove taking infiltrating chosen as troops and instead offer all AL CHSM (with icon undivided) to take infiltration for 1-2 pts.(as additional veteran skill for chosen), because the way it is now, players would only take chosen and operatives and no normal marines, also AL is not known for a great number of chosen but for ability to infiltrate as the whole force
- also an ability to infiltrate or scout other units such as dreadnoughts would be great
- i don’t know if Alpha lord is worth 30pts, but maybe I just have to give it a try

- That's a nice idea and something I did originally consider. It may make Chosen far too powerful however, being able to take infiltrate and an additional veteran skill (e.g. Tank hunters) would likely be over-powered, but it would encourage the use of CSM's. I decided to leave it as just the Chosen however, as whilst the AL isn't known for their large number of chosen they are low in numbers and this is a simple mechanic to enable the infiltration abilities symbolic of the AL. Originally, the chosen wouldn't enable Auxiliaries, so CSM's would be needed to get operatives, but this has since changed and I can see what you mean about people rarely taking CSM's. Then again, maybe people would use CSM's more now due to their comparative price and the Alpha Lord's ability to help them with an almost-infiltration.
- Speaking of which... The Alpha Lords ability should basically work like Eldrads and add another level of deception to it. If you had a shooty army or were against a CC, you could deploy a unit as far forwards as possible (in spearhead), thereby forcing your opponent back, before shifting your forces as far back as possible, enabling you to get the most turns away from CC possible. It can also cause opponents to deploy with the intentions against a specific target/unit, before the Alpha Lord enables the target/unit move elsewhere; thereby messing your opponents deployment. It can put units from deployment into reserve and last but not least can improve LoS. Say you put Havocs in a corner of the board and your enemy deployed to hide from their LoS; with the Alpha Lord ability you can then re-deploy your Havocs and now have your opponents carefully placed units in clear LoS - e.g. Side armour on battlewagons/rhino's etc.

Icon of the Renegade
- chaos master is really good and if rolled in high number it works like alpha legion icon

Is that 'good' or 'too good'? I tried to balance it somewhat with Scout not being amazing and it's restrictions, particularly in regards to vehicles.

Icon of the Death Guard
- Death guardian would be much better if it works for all units in bauble of some less inches

That's a good idea; I may make it all units within 6" get a 5+ cover save and cover/assault benefits?

Icon of the World Eaters
- Chief Slaughterer, now this is the first OP I have found, being it only counter atack it wold be ballanced but giving another attack to Khornate marines, who already have enough is way too much overkill

I had recently removed the count-attack part of this rule to try and limit it being OP. However, I admit to this being a rule I was worried about, but I was hoping it's limited area of effect would be OK, whilst attack bubbles are nothing new (Sanguinor, Logan, Pedro etc.)? It's also very khornate and rare IMHO.

Icon of the Emperor’s Children
- Lord Commander - I really dont know if giving them both fleet and furious charge isn’t too much, maybe let the choose one at the start of the turn

The idea was to represent Combat-drugs, whilst Fleet and Furious charge aren't particularly powerful and suffer from the same ideas as the Chief Slaughterer IMHO,

Veteran Skills
- Furious charge is missing :(

I did consider adding Furious Charge, but ultimately I decided against it, as unlike hunting tanks, or improved WS, a furious charge isn't really a skill IMHO, but just a state of mind? It also cuts down on options (therefore creating simplicity) and preferred enemy is better IMHO?

Kharn The Betrayer
- people here think, that Eternal warrior is too good for him, personally I don’t know

My reasoning here is that Kharn has been around since before the HH, has died at least once, been severely crippled multiple times, yet goes around the galaxy kicking ass and taking names, rather than getting knocked out by one hit from a powerfist or something. I did increase his points too?

Typhus
- manreaper - autohit at S5 and instant death, that’s way too much, you kill a bunch of marines and their captain in one swing, maybe s4 and instant death or s5 and autohit

I would consider to add some more characters maybe Zhufor the Impaler and Arkos the Faithless from FW Siege of Wraks

Yeah, I can understand that. He was until the last update Str4 as normal, but I feared he wasn't that strong. He can obviously take a beating, but I wasn't sure he could dish one out, hence my making him Str5, to represent the size of the manreaper. He is 225pts after all, so he needs to be good. I may drop it back to Str4, but after that brief explanation of my reasoning, would you still think it's too much?

Chaos Lord
- I would let him to take more gifts than just one, in the old book (meaning 3rd ed.) he hat a point restriction, same with champion, which could take less points
- the problem here is that eternal warrior is too good to take anything else
- this will also add more variability and modelling possibilities to to characters

My thinking behind only one gift, was to enable customisation and character, but to not let it go overboard. When you used to see a character with Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Visage etc. etc. I thought that was too much. With one gift, you've still got the customisation options and can add character, but it's also a simple mechanic and a return of gifts of chaos.
Regarding EW, it's the most expensive of all the upgrades and actually has a limited effect; SW's have a similar piece of equipment and this too rarely gets taken. Personally, I'd very rarely opt for eternal warrior.

Daemon prince
- this guy is a big problem, it is useless without deamon weapon, because you made him so expansive and extremely killy with it
- in games a played and saw, DP functions mainly as a fire magnet and you made him 50 point more expansive
- with daemon weapon he is ridiculously good, 4(5) +d6 A on S8 with undivided weapon is bad
- I could see him as 130 pts naked with wings for 25 and possibility to take more chaos gifts

Ironically, just before you had posted, I had changed him to 130pts base (note: this isn't the version in the OP - YET) but had increased the cost of his wings.
I've heard of people using them as fire magnets, but they are also incredibly powerful, with or without a Daemon Weapon; with 4 Str6, armour ignoring, monstrous creature attacks and 4 wounds with a 3+/4++ and a high WS; a Daemon Prince is very powerful as it is.
Within the current codex a Daemon Prince is basically an auto-included, due to his points and his abilities. Within my Codex I've improved his invulnerable save but made him more significantly different to a Lord, so that players have to choose which to take rather than automatically taking a prince. IMHO a Daemon Prince has gone from an auto-include to an investment. Think of them as you would a Hive Tyrant...

Someone commented on prices with Daemon Weapons before, however I'm still not sure what is so bad about them. They cost 15pts more than the Chaos Lords, but don't provide the PW bonus, meaning they're effectively 30pts more at 55pts. 55pts on your 130pts model already makes it go up to 185pts. This Daemon Weapon, whilst providing some hefty benefits is expensive and capable of hurting your character. You can spend extra points to make him tougher (gifts), but a Daemon Weapon bypasses all of this and can inflict an insta-wound, no matter what. A wound is a big blow on such a big character IMHO - look at Abaddon for an example. Similarly, things like Wraithlords, Dreadknights and Carnifex's are all Str10 or there abouts but they aren't seen as over-powered.
Finally, a Relic Blade costs what? 30pts and adds +2 Strength? For 15pts you get extra attacks, but also a big risk of hurting yourself. Repeatedly. IMHO in that light it's quite balanced. Whereas the +1 str Frostblade is rarely taken.
Thoughts?

Chaos Sorcerer
- I liked more the previous system of choosing powers with different costs for each, because frankly, some are just better then others

I can understand this, however this seems to be a trend GW is moving away from. Similarly, it can really rack up the cost of your characters/models and I've tried to change the powers to be of similar effect.

Chaos Champion
- nobody would pay 65 pts for this

Why?
Originally I had Alpha Lords/Warsmiths/whomever as individual characters, but I chose to make it a special rule and allow the Chaos Champion, allowing you to pay minimum points for these rules.

Chaos Terminators
- that odd think with 5 champs is bad, just let people to take how many champs they want and to kit them with any gifts they want

The idea here is for them to represent the truly-elite Chaos Space Marines; those who can really dish out the pain. With more than 5-men however, they are no longer the truly elite (doubled numbers) and are much more likely to become over-powered IMHO. 5-men is an important balancing factor IMHO.

Chaos Dreadnought
- maybe let him take double aoutocans to make chaos rifle dread or allow it only to renegades
- nurgle dreads should not have FA13, that should be left to IW, you cold maybe give them some pestilence weaponry or permanent 5+ (fly) cover
- it would be nice if we could have some elite slot dread and a heavy slot dread like each other SM have, maybe something like venerabele (ancient) dread in elite and normal dread in heavy, or normal in elite and siege (IW?) in heavy

I had been considering allowing dual autocannons, but I fear if this could be too good alongside Fire Frenzy?
I don't see why Nurgle Dreads should not be FA13 and why IW should. Nurgle's notoriously tough and their Dreadnoughts are too; hence the AV13. Iron Warriors aren't known for fielding more dreads than other Legions and have Basilisks, Defilers and Vindicators and a Siege Hammer; why can't Nurgle Dreads be AV13?
I like the idea of an elite and heavy Dreadnought, I shall have to think about that and see what I can conjure...

Grenade Launcher
- this should be renamed to astartes Grenade Launcher to enable cultists and operatives to take normal (IG) Grenade Launcher

Grenade Launchers seem to be rarely taken in IG armies as it is, I don't think operatives & heretics will miss them too much IMHO.

Heretics
- why don’t they have heavy weapons, it would make much more sense then HW in operatives
- don’t really think they should scout

I find Heretics aren't valued by the Chaos Legions and wouldn't really be trusted with HW's. The Iron Warriors for example have used them as human shields, running in front of the enemy, whilst other Chaos Legions use them as simple tools, whilst the AL values their operatives. Having 20-men run forward with 2 flamers sounds much more appropriate than 20-men sitting back with a lascannon in my mind.
With Scouts, it gives them some mobility and fits their roles within CSM armies; as scouts, meatshields, distractions or whatever.

Khorne Bezerkers
- plenty people will argue that they are too good with chain rending axes and that they should remain as they are

Yeah, I've questioned this myself. I've changed it to re-roll any to-wound roll of one in close-combat.

Rubric Marines
- 20 pts for sorcerer is too cheap (maybe 30 or make him buy his powers)
- 9 guys in a squad should not make sorcerer free but cheaper (because it is more expansive then it other cult squads)
- all is dust is odd, maybe give them 3+ reroll agains shooting and give them 4++ against hits (even CC) that negate their armor but are not twice their T too, it will reflect that smaller gunfire or small holes from power weapons cannot destroy the armor but a hit from a rocket or power fist smashes it apart

My reasoning is that the 20pts makes him effectively the same price as the existing aspiring sorcerers in the unit (43pts), whilst having paid for several Rubric Marines isn't cheap. Your basic squad of nine Rubric Marines and a Sorcerer in a rhino is over 240pts and has problems of its own; lack of anti-armour, weakness in assault etc.

Operatives (Alpha Legion Only)
- really miss icon of glory here

True, but you can get a Ld10 Champion and the Alpha Legion don't really seem to worship Chaos...

Chaos Rhino
- Open-topped - this was the greatest problem that guys I have talked and me too had with this codex
- it is really TOOOOOOOO good to even think about it, why should anybody take non-Open-topped rhino? O-t vehicle are so much better, just imagine it, assaulty units (zerkers) will jump from it and charge (18 line) and they are way too better than orks jumping from their O-t wagons and every other unit that is shooty will buy it as a cheap moving bunker, not to mention chosen first turn charge (12+12+2+6= 32 charge)

Yes, open-topped has always been on a balancing edge between good and OP. I'm going to change it to 15pts, but I may reluctantly take it up to 20pts. Remember that it makes your already fragile rhino weaker and more expensive, whilst only really benefiting assault units. AV11, open-topped and not-fast isn't particularly impressive or hard to take out. Obviously it's good with say Zerkers in it, but when it gets shot, things get dicey IMHO, particularly as this rhino will now cost 50pts!

Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Oh yeah, that's a typo; cheers! Under that typo you'd actually be buying 5 CSM's for 3pts more than usual that cannot score!

Obliterators
- rules are confusing
- somebody wants his autocanons back, but i don’t see why

I'm unsure why the rules are confusing. You simply choose 2 weapons each turn and go from there?

Defiler
- you want people to pay for vomit canon, which is worse than battle canon

The idea is that people would be paying for FA13 and the improved anti-infantry ability (although obviously weaker against tanks). If you have plenty of anti-tank elsewhere in particular, then I'd say 15pts for +1 armour and improved anti-infantry. The Vomit Cannon can still take out vehicles too however.

Basilisk
- why 15 pts more than IG?
- why BS4, IW let always thralls to operate them?
- I miss ability to swap heavy bolter for heavy flamer like IG can

The 15pts increase was due to the specialisation and improved ballistic skill. In retrospect, I'll take it down to 10pts more and add the option for a heavy flamer.

Greater Daemon
- +1 ws doesn’t justify +30 pts

Noted. I've taken him down to 120pts; but he's still a beast in close combat and benefits from the improved mobility and cheaper (or even free!) champions.

Winds of Chaos
- kill on 3+ is way too good, I would stick to old 4+

Well, it's currently 4+ but is rarely taken...

Warp Rift
- there should be stated if it means completed 12” or uncompleted 12”
- can be OP if you play TS and give it to all your little sorcs in squads and dreads, you will have a whole army jumping around
- penetration on dread is too much imo, maybe glance?

The penetration on dreads is to balance the significantly improved mobility. Warp Rift comes with its own problems too; you have all the risks of deep-strike (mishap etc.), assault restrictions, nullification, cost and the ability to kill yourself. Similarly, a TS squad with this would then be unable to take out vehicles etc. I'm going to design an army around this concept to see if it really is worth worrying about.
The rules mean complete 12" btw.

Bolt of Change
- S10?!??! it should be on par with daemons, which have S8, there were many arguments here against it

That's fair enough, but remember that the Nids have a Str10 lance, SW's have LL and JotWW and Blood Angels have Blood Lance and GK have Might of Titan; psychic powers seem to be getting more powerful, whilst a single str8 shot isn't very impressive. I've lowered it's range, but have effectively increased it's cost (all powers would cost around the 25pts mark), whilst bringing it more in-line with 5th edition powers...

Dirge caster
- also many arguments here, -2LD is too good (i know -1DL is too bad)

The problem is that upgrades like Dirge Caster very rarely get taken as it is. How about -1 Ld for 5pts?

Gift of the Gods
- there should be stated where the 1 result chaos spawn will be placed
- it would be also fun if a deapstriking terminators turn into spawns, that the spawns also deep strike

The rules describe them as becoming a separate unit, before deployment meaning that they are deployed separately as a separate unit!

Thanks for the feedback. As I've said, I'm not rejecting your advice and I've already taken a lot of it on-board, but I would too like you to see my reasoning. Cheers.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Does anyone have any battle reports with this book?

I THINK (emphasis as I'm not sure), but some people have reported their experiences briefly and that I know of IIRC the W/L record for my fandex itself is 3 Wins/1 Draw/2 Losses. I recall a guy who had a Bezerker army beaten by Orks (a massive close-combat battle then!) and Orks beaten by Death Guard....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Dave, you really should apply for a job at GW. Sell your soul to make life better for us CSM players!

I'm not selling my soul for Chaos; maybe Space Wolves however!

Tbh I do intend to send it to GW soon, for what little good it'd do.

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

4298

Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/19 20:23:55

Post by: Spellbound

Some comments of my own:

Check out the points cost on chaos bikers. 78 for 5? I'd buy that! I think you meant to say 3 bikers cost that amount.

Doombolt still pales in comparison to the destructive power of a primaris psyker.

Special characters seem to cost a lot for what they have.

The army still suffers from troops handicapping characters - Abaddon, for example, still runs away if attached to his


Chaos theory - wow. Why choose doombolt again? At least give Doombolt a longer range, so players have the choice of "at short range, chaos theory. At longer range, Doombolt".

Your krak grenades differ from the IG krak grenades, at least the ones fired from a grenade launcher. Might want to make it a different weapon, or use the standard profile.

Does a rebelling daemon weapon still ignore armour saves?

Daemon weapon - mark of tzeentch. I hate this rule, rending on a 4+ INSTEAD of being a power weapon. That means vs marines it's a power weapon, essentially, but against a guardsman a roll to-wound of 2 or 3 will allow an armor save. What? Just make it a power weapon that also rends on a 4+, don't replace its armour-ignoring when it rolls a 3.


Absolutely love the scourge claw rules. Very nice and characterful, and makes them DEADLY vs hordes. Have you considered reinstating the "doubles its attacks" on a blood raging dreadnought like in the 3.5 codex?

Something I want to see in the next chaos codex: Either make terminator armour WAY cheaper [because the characters all come with a 5+ invulnerable save stock] or have terminator armour add +1 to the invulnerable save. That makes lords/sorcerers a 5+, terminators lords/sorcerers a 4+, and Abaddon/Tzeentch terminator characters a 3+ invulnerable. Make the options be actual CHOICES, because they grant better benefits. Especially in the case of chaos - do you want to buy chaos armor for 2+ armor, and ride in a rhino, or get the 2+ armor and boost your invul, but prevent sweeping advance and limit your wargear and transport options?

Daemonic mounts - the question with daemonic mounts has always been "now, where do I GO?" Characters with these mounts have a real tough time joining units. They either get slowed down or slow down the unit. They can't ride in transports and there's no other good unit to ride with, meaning that a character on a mount really needs to be able to stand on their own. A bonus to toughness or something probably needs to be considered.

Lesser Daemons - these still take a force organization chart? I can live with that I guess. And if I'm part of a legion, my daemons aligned with my legion cost only 11 points but get all those benefits?

.....S4 T4 rending daemonettes for 11 points apiece? Alrighty! Bit odd specifying they don't gain rending vs vehicles, but ah well. It seems like the Tzeentch daemons get a raw deal for 16 points, though. Maybe make their invul 4+ as well, or increase the gun to assault 3.


Gift of the Gods - Woah, woah, WOAH! I can pay points for terminators, pay points for champions, pay points for gift, and become spawn?

Actually I just read the statline for spawn - alright, not that bad. And it would be a unit of 10 of them? 10d6 S6 attacks eh? I can live with that.


Something I've always wanted to see in a chaos codex, and yet never see it: Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.

Read the fluff. Chaos Marines are itching to fight marines all the time. They'll perform raids and stuff just to get marines out there so they can fight them. They consider guard easy and boring, and they always talk about how well they know their tactics, fighting style, and even ways to get around their armour by hitting them in the weak spots. All CSM should have preferred enemy: Space Marines, and if not all, at LEAST all the elite and HQ units.


Chaos Spawn should be 40 points. Compare them to ogryns. You'll be higher initiative, faster, higher strength but not as good an armor save and no gun. Compared to grotesques, you're faster but don't have fnp. 40 sounds better for those guys. They have a daemon prince statline, except for skills and speed.

Same problem with dreadknights: You say wings make you jump infantry. Clarify for daemon princes.

Greater daemons: Still have the high initiative problem with terrain slowing us down, even the Slaanesh's initiative 8 is a bit of a waste then. No Eternal Warrior, still? Or will the Daemon rule be applied to this codex?

Blastmaster: There is so little variation between single and varied frequency, why should I bother standing still? I'll wound T4 on a 2+ either way, and neither penetrates MEQ armor. S7 isn't very good at killing vehicles. Single frequency has always been a high-powered shot and traditionally a blast. I don't mind the blastmaster's current S8 AP3 48" blast for single frequency, nor do I mind the 2-shot S5. It's just the cost. Either use the statline for the current one and reduce the points to like 10, or keep your 20 point cost and boost up the single-frequency. Relying on noisemarines for anti-tank is pretty much a mistake, so if you wanted to make it something like S7 large blast Ap4, that'd be fine too.


Why are obliterators costing more, but get worse in every way? No eternal warrior [not that they should have it, unless you leave them T4], still S4 T4, and have to pick 2 weapons, so they're worthless in assault if you want an assault weapon and a long-ranged weapon?

I never thought I'd say I want the current oblits back but if that's what it'd change to, ugh. Absolutely not. Bring them back to 70 points and reinstate S5 and T4(5). That's about proper for those guys.


Chaos vindicator still pays same price as marine vindicator and doesn't come with the second gun? k.


What the hell reason do you have for the daemon prince price jump, by the way? Building a lash prince as I have it now is 155 points. Under your codex, the exact same model with the exact same abilities, with +1 invul save, costs 215! And it's not really any harder to kill! How in the world can you justify that?



I dunno, some things I like but on the whole, things seem way overpowered or WAY WAY overcosted. And the marks seem more about restricting what you can take, rather than granting access to mark-only things. What if I want a Slaanesh-marked defiler with I4, but I don't want blastmasters? Why does it have fewer attacks? Why does that upgrade cost so many points? I've replaced the autocannon with a blastmaster [about the same, no twin-linked but 2x shots], and the heavy flamer with a blastmaster [same thing, longer range and strength but potentially fewer models hit and no re-rolling, plus allows cover saves], and lost an attack, but gained an initiative - and can I still trade my weapons for close combat weapons? Assuming I can't, I've traded an attack AND the ability to get MORE attacks for two guns and a point of initiative. If I AM able to trade the blastmasters back in for ccw, why have I paid 35 points?

You need to rethink some of those options. Rather than saying "you get the mark of slaanesh, and this and this, and you lose this and this, period, if you pay x points" say "you may buy the mark of slaanesh, which gives you this bonus. Then you can buy these upgrades". Now, when I'm paying points, I'm getting a BENEFIT [+1 initiative], and I've now unlocked the OPTION to buy myself blastmasters if I like the idea of a dakka defiler running around [though I still can't fire the battle cannon and another gun, which kinda blows. Might fix that, or allow the battle cannon to be replaced], or maybe even allow the heavy flamer to be a twin-linked doomsiren, or make a vehicle-class doomsiren that's S6.

And why do the warbands have such arbitrary restrictions? No bikers for Tzeentch? No Vindicators for Slaanesh? Where's the fluff behind those, or did each legion just HAVE to have something they can't bring?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You buy the mark for a unit for a MODEL in the unit. Does this mean the mark goes away if that model dies? You clarified that if you combat squad both combat squads get the benefit of a purchased mark - so how does that work?

Maybe change it to the UNIT buys the mark. At which point I'd like to suggest maybe taking it back to the old school days and paying x points for the marks for each model, that way a 5-man squad and a 15-man squad pay appropriately for it, rather than 5-man squads being HOSED and 15-man getting off real cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sacred numbers: Don't force small squads on people. Make the max unit size 20 models, and give the free champion to any multiple of the sacred number.

Think of army composition. If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? Blastmasters are mediocre but kind of an unreliable waste. If I go berserkers, they can at least take plasma pistols and honestly their hth attacks are good enough. Plaguemarines take normal meltaguns. Thousand Sons are stuck with the sorcerer trying to pop tanks. Perhaps provide options for the cult units to all be able to take care of armour? Why can't a noisemarine take a meltagun? Why can't a standard noisemarine carry a doomsiren? Only one blastmaster per squad? Look at grey knights for example - paying a lot of points per trooper, they don't depend on taking anti-tank meltaguns in their squads, they have the option to take 2 psycannons to handle anti-tank and anti-horde. Allow noisemarines to take multiple blastmasters and give thousand sons either the option to take a meltagun [seriously, why can't they?] or have an alternate profile for their bolters - instead of rapid-firing the bolter shells, give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range and two units can work together, one popping a transport and the other gunning down those inside, rather than being absolutely FORCED to depend on long-range fire from elsewhere in the army or being FORCED to take regular CSMs for the sole purpose of having some meltaguns.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/19 22:14:54

Post by: Just Dave

Spellbound wrote:Some comments of my own:

Check out the points cost on chaos bikers. 78 for 5? I'd buy that! I think you meant to say 3 bikers cost that amount.

This was answered in the previous post:

Just Dave wrote:

zub wrote:Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Oh yeah, that's a typo; cheers! Under that typo you'd actually be buying 5 CSM's for 3pts more than usual that cannot score!

Doombolt still pales in comparison to the destructive power of a primaris psyker.

Powers such as Doombolt are typically moderately weak, but provide reliable hitting-power. It's still likely to take out 2 Terminators a turn. What's the power of a primaris psyker?

Special characters seem to cost a lot for what they have.

The difficulty is that people are likely (and have) to say otherwise; generally I've improved them but kept them at a similar price. With characters such as this, I also need to try and ensure that they're not a reason to not take a normal HQ. Please give me some specific examples however.

The army still suffers from troops handicapping characters - Abaddon, for example, still runs away if attached to his

True to an extent I'd argue, however Abaddon's typical bodyguard (Terminators) are stubborn, whilst cut units are fearless, IoCU can re-roll leadership tests while this is a problem for all characters like this.

Chaos theory - wow. Why choose doombolt again? At least give Doombolt a longer range, so players have the choice of "at short range, chaos theory. At longer range, Doombolt".

Because Doombolt is reliable? With Chaos Theory you may just get a 5" range, Str4, AP6 and 1 small blast?

Your krak grenades differ from the IG krak grenades, at least the ones fired from a grenade launcher. Might want to make it a different weapon, or use the standard profile.

The grenade launcher as a whole is different; it's created by CSM's and the Dark Mechanicum due to the simplicity, reliability and versatility of the weapon. Plasma/Flamer/Melta weapons require specific and expensive and extensive facilities and production process; grenades can be man-made and easily produced; a necessity for the Chaos Legions.

Does a rebelling daemon weapon still ignore armour saves?

Daemon weapon - mark of tzeentch. I hate this rule, rending on a 4+ INSTEAD of being a power weapon. That means vs marines it's a power weapon, essentially, but against a guardsman a roll to-wound of 2 or 3 will allow an armor save. What? Just make it a power weapon that also rends on a 4+, don't replace its armour-ignoring when it rolls a 3.

It says "All Daemon Weapons are two-handed Power Weapons that add an additional D6 attacks (roll at the beginning of each close combat phase) in combat. On a roll of 1 the Daemon inside the weapon rebels and the bearer suffers a single wound with no saves of any kind allowed.
Furthermore if it rebels the user gains no additional attacks and all bonuses for wielding the Daemon Weapon are lost for the duration of that turn.
Daemon Weapons also confer an additional ability depending on the mark of the character who wields it, as described below:"

Which means they ignore all saves if the weapon rebels and the Tzeentch's rending is ON TOP of the normal abilities.

Absolutely love the scourge claw rules. Very nice and characterful, and makes them DEADLY vs hordes. Have you considered reinstating the "doubles its attacks" on a blood raging dreadnought like in the 3.5 codex?

Thank you; not confusing are they?
And no, I thought that the current worked well enough and aren't game-breaking as it were.

Something I want to see in the next chaos codex: Either make terminator armour WAY cheaper [because the characters all come with a 5+ invulnerable save stock] or have terminator armour add +1 to the invulnerable save. That makes lords/sorcerers a 5+, terminators lords/sorcerers a 4+, and Abaddon/Tzeentch terminator characters a 3+ invulnerable. Make the options be actual CHOICES, because they grant better benefits. Especially in the case of chaos - do you want to buy chaos armor for 2+ armor, and ride in a rhino, or get the 2+ armor and boost your invul, but prevent sweeping advance and limit your wargear and transport options?

The Chaos Terminator Armour is intended to be priced to take this into consideration: it's 10pts cheaper than that of the Space Wolves for example. Think of it like this: Chaos/Runic/Artificer Armour is 20pts -- Power Weapons are 15pts -- Twin-linked Boltguns are around 3pts. That would make the Terminator Armour worth approximately 38pts, but is charged only 30pts, due to its restrictions. You could pay for the Chaos Armour or you could get Terminator armour which looks good, allows deep-strike, provides a power weapon and storm bolter and can allow you to still get Chaos Gifts.

Daemonic mounts - the question with daemonic mounts has always been "now, where do I GO?" Characters with these mounts have a real tough time joining units. They either get slowed down or slow down the unit. They can't ride in transports and there's no other good unit to ride with, meaning that a character on a mount really needs to be able to stand on their own. A bonus to toughness or something probably needs to be considered.

There are currently only 2 beast mounts that prevents them from joining other units; undivided and slaanesh; Undivided provides the toughness bonus whilst Slaanesh provides additional attacks, initiative and WS. I was hoping this would be pretty sufficient.

Lesser Daemons - these still take a force organization chart? I can live with that I guess. And if I'm part of a legion, my daemons aligned with my legion cost only 11 points but get all those benefits?

.....S4 T4 rending daemonettes for 11 points apiece? Alrighty! Bit odd specifying they don't gain rending vs vehicles, but ah well. It seems like the Tzeentch daemons get a raw deal for 16 points, though. Maybe make their invul 4+ as well, or increase the gun to assault 3.

"Lesser and Greater Daemons do not occupy a slot on the Force Organisation Chart (and therefore cannot count as the mandatory choices), but are otherwise treated as Troops and HQ choices respectively"
So no, they do not take up a FoC slot and as the -5pts benefits only apply to models/units with a Warband Icon - which Daemons cannot take - they are 16pts for what you describe.
Also, it states "conferring the ‘normal’ bonuses as well as those listed below" so the Tzeentch Daemons are 4++.

Gift of the Gods - Woah, woah, WOAH! I can pay points for terminators, pay points for champions, pay points for gift, and become spawn?

Actually I just read the statline for spawn - alright, not that bad. And it would be a unit of 10 of them? 10d6 S6 attacks eh? I can live with that.

Not quite; only Terminator Champion units of 5-men can take gifts. Regarding spawn, you would have paid 45pts for each Terminator (and then any upgrades) with Gift of the Gods; this unit however could then become spawn; costing you at least 150pts worth of upgrades and your intentions for the Terminator Unit. However, alternatively your 450pts terminator unit could be able to re-roll armour saves (potentially 2+,3++ re-rollable), gain +10D3 attacks, better strength and more.
The rewards and risks for Gift of the Gods is high.

Something I've always wanted to see in a chaos codex, and yet never see it: Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.

Read the fluff. Chaos Marines are itching to fight marines all the time. They'll perform raids and stuff just to get marines out there so they can fight them. They consider guard easy and boring, and they always talk about how well they know their tactics, fighting style, and even ways to get around their armour by hitting them in the weak spots. All CSM should have preferred enemy: Space Marines, and if not all, at LEAST all the elite and HQ units.

That would really need to be included in the Space Marine Codex, who'd benefit from it significantly less as they don't like close combat. Fluff-wise it makes sense, I agree, however game =/= fluff all the time and this would be very difficult to implement.

Chaos Spawn should be 40 points. Compare them to ogryns. You'll be higher initiative, faster, higher strength but not as good an armor save and no gun. Compared to grotesques, you're faster but don't have fnp. 40 sounds better for those guys. They have a daemon prince statline, except for skills and speed.

I can see what you're saying, but Ogryn's are generally considered a rubbish unit. Similarly, they can actually embark on transports and aren't such a big target. Daemon Princes on the other hand are monstrous creatures and so get all those benefits.

Same problem with dreadknights: You say wings make you jump infantry. Clarify for daemon princes.

Good point.

Greater daemons: Still have the high initiative problem with terrain slowing us down, even the Slaanesh's initiative 8 is a bit of a waste then. No Eternal Warrior, still? Or will the Daemon rule be applied to this codex?

Damn. Swear I had Eternal Warrior in their somewhere. Yes; both Daemons are still immune instant death, I just hadn't written it! Good point again.

----

That's all I've got time to answer to tonight; I'll attend to the rest tomorrow. I will point out the following contradictions in your suggestions:

S7 isn't very good at killing vehicles. Relying on noisemarines for anti-tank is pretty much a mistake,

If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? ...
give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range

Cheers, Dave. Btw Spellbound; what's your general opinion on my 'dex?

Reply by: Grenat - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/19 22:19:43

Post by: Grenat

Hey o/

Nice to see a good work like this one !
I will recomend it to my friend who play CSM.
By what I can read, I think he will be very pleased !
(and we are fond of friendly games with special rules or fan dex, so no problem to test it )

Reply by: Andilus Greatsword - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/19 22:57:00

Post by: Andilus Greatsword

I wanna see some battle reports with this Codex just to see how it turns out.

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Spellbound

S7 can kill rhinos. But wasting everyone's fire and standing still so one guy can fire 4 shots is not very good. If every 1kson had a s7 shot, though, that's a lot of shots going into that tank. Look at what grey knights get for 20 points: 4 strength 7 rending or EIGHT s7 rending if they stay still. Put it in perspective.

11 points seemed like a steal for the slaanesh demons, 16 is a ripoff if they can't rend vehicles. Take off the no-vehicle thing or give them the grenades that codex daemons daemonettes have. Or just use codex: daemons daemons.

And yeah, I got that when it rebels you don't get any saves. What I mean is, does it still ignore enemy armor saves. You said it loses all its abilities, I was wondering if that includes being a power weapon.

And why is a daemon weapon more expensive for a daemon prince anyway? They already ignore armour saves, which is a large part of the daemon weapon's cost. They don't really have any more attacks and they already wound on a 2+, so giving extra strength is mind of a moot point. Other abilities like poisoned 3+ actually nerf the daemon's strength. Sure they get a re-roll, but so would a S4 chaos lord against many things.

And doombolt is not likely to kill 2 terminators a turn. 3 shots, 2+ to hit still leaves only 2 hitting well within the realm of possibility. It wounds on a 3+, so that's still about 2, and most terminators are 3++, grey knight [4++], in cover if they're worried about it, or have their 5++ still. Combine it all you're probably just killing one. FYI, the primaris psyker is like 55 points and his power does 2d6 strength 6 hits.

Lucius the Eternal was the specific character I was looking at. I was comparing him to a typical character that can achieve similar things for fewer points. A wolf lord can be eternal warrior and get the re-rolls on everything, not just enemy independent characters, and have a 4+ invul save all the time, not just against characters and monsters, for cheaper. He doesn't have a doomsiren and WS7 I7, though, which I'll admit comes in handy.

My problem is accepting the costs we have to pay for some of these high stats. The same thing happens in warhammer fantasy, but even MORE often. A chaos lord will pay through the nose to be WS 8, meanwhile something 2/3 his points is WS6 with re-rolls to hit. Sure the chaos lord hits THAT guy on a 3+, but he's hitting everything else on a 3+ with a re-roll, and even against the chaos lord he's hitting on a 4+ with a re-roll, meaning BETTER odds. High stats really doesn't change much. Once you hit WS5, you're hitting nearly every trooper on a 3+ and it never gets any better which is something I HATE about the rule system. Yes WS8 can hit WS7 on a 3+, but he hits WS2 on a 3+ as well, so what's he paying points for? Things like that should be chosen to match the fluff of the character they're given to and in all honesty should be FREE in terms of points, as you're paying a lot for something that will only come up in certain situations. GW themselves show how much they think initiative matters - Purifiers pay TWO points to up their initiative from 4 to 6 with their force weapons.

I think the special characters should have more fancy rules. Not necessarily to make them more deadly - yeah it's nice to get re-rolls to everything for example - but to make them more characterful. Lucius's whip and skill could be made into some sort of parry rule. Take away all re-rolls [though re-rolling to hit for being such a good swordsman would be nice], give him a lot of attacks, and have him basically sacrifice an attack to rob enemy models of attacks. Say Lucius gets 5 base attacks, plus one for two weapons. A chaplain charges and has 5 attacks total. Lucius sacrifices all but one attack, takes away all the chaplain's attacks, and still has one to spare to get in lucky thrusts.

Or go with the old Lucius's rules, which were very nice. Few attacks when dealing with scrubs that don't interest him, and bumped to 5 attacks when his opponent had WS5 or higher. Add in "or is a monstrous creature" if you like. Personally I've always wondered why he doesn't carry a Blissgiver, and whatever happened to combat drugs, anyway? It would be great to have them as a wargear option again, but failing that at least give them back to Lucius. His own "kill me, become me" fluff story could be represented with a Crowe-like sacrificial strike where the model that kills him counts as killed for VPs or whatever - so if a Hive tyrant kills Lucius he gives up his VPs and counts as a kill point, but isn't taken off the field.

Typhus's psychic powers can't be nullified - why? why him? Why CAN Ahriman's powers be nullified? Isn't Ahriman the better sorcerer? I'm fine if both want to pass psychic tests automatically because they're both skilled psykers [though I know at the moment you don't have typhus able to do that] but Typhus just seems to be the better sorcerer here. Also, as a general rule of thumb, compare Ahriman to Njal stormcaller. At the moment, in the current official chaos codex, Njal stormcaller is totally better than Ahriman in every single possible way imaginable - just keep comparing the two until they seem about equal in power, or tone down Ahriman's cost.


Honestly that's just what I keep seeing: Horrible inconsistencies, when I compare your units to other codexes. Daemon prince statline on chaos spawn for cheaper than similar units like Ogryns. Yeah Ogryns can fit in a transport, but spawn are fleet and none of those transports can move and assault, so they don't get THAT much more movement. Ogryns have a gun - but that balances the spawn being S6 and having a 5+ invul to the Ogryn's 4+ armor. I really think your spawn should be S5 or 40 points or something in-between.

Abaddon is the fearless leader of the Black Legion, but he knows when to retreat [he has, many times before now]. Let him choose to pass or fail morale tests for him and his unit. And make his unit have better stats - WS5, even. I'm constantly disappointed that though CSMs have been alive since the days of the Heresy and fighting constantly, they're no better than the new recruits of the space marine legions. Aspiring champions should be WS5 across the board, and Abaddon's bodyguard should be too.

I hear what you're saying about lord mounts. Simple fact: Nobody takes one, ever. EVER. Competitive lists, fun lists, they're just not good. Know what's good? A thunderwolf mount. It makes them fast, it makes them tough, it makes them stronger and deadlier. They also have a better wargear setup so they CAN be more resilient. They can take storm shields, and the belt of russ, and otherwise get better invul saves than chaos generally can, because apparently chaos can't pick up a storm shield. A thunderwolf mount isn't just a bike, it's not toughness 4(5) it's toughness FIVE, which makes a MASSIVE difference in surviving melta shots and missile launchers. THAT is when it becomes worth it, and that's why we see wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts commonly, and yet NEVER see chaos lords on steeds.


And no, your army list doesn't say only units of 5 can buy the gift of the gods. Only units of 5 can purchase one of the Gifts of Chaos, but the 5 point roll on the table can be made for an entire 10-man unit of champions if you wanted.

And yeah after reading the entries for the gifts of the gods, the only one I hate is 2. 1 is..... hit or miss. Yeah, you don't have your terminators anymore. But the unit you now have is ridiculously powerful still, and while the enemy gets the KP for the terminators, they don't get an additional one for the spawn so you can just throw them out at whatever you like. I just hate things that do NOTHING. Chaos seems to be the only army book where you can PAY for potentially NOTHING. Random buff? Sure. Random buff with chance for penalty? ergh.... not... uh-uh, don't really like it. BUT, it's only 5 points, so not that worried about it.


Um....why....why would preferred enemy: Space Marines need to be included in the space marine codex? Marines learn how to use their armor, sure, but they're not studying how to dismantle each other the way chaos space marines do. And CSM can modify their armor to suit their tastes or, often, grow into their armour so it's like their skin. The same rules don't go the other way. It's easy to implement that rule. All chaos space marines [not daemons or vehicles, which are too clumsy to really take advantage of such weaknesses] gain PE: Space Marines. Done deal.

Speaking of dreadnoughts, many times in the fluff CSMs [well, at least Word Bearers] will use dreadnoughts for sage advice. A dreadnought option for a chaos lord would be pretty neat. Just like buying terminator armour, you can buy a walker sarcophagus for x amount of points and it comes with a scourge and a gun. Keep the 5+ invulnerable save and some of the gift of chaos options. That one needs more thought, but it's a neat idea.

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/20 06:17:17

Post by: crazypsyko666

Have you considered rewriting other codecies like Eldar or Tyranids? I think it would be neat to start a fandex team on Dakka, fixing really bad things and sending them into GW to be ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a Tzeentch fan, I've got to say that the Tzeentch psychic powers (especially the Warcoven) is just too powerful. If the squad is large enough I can kill any enemy unit per turn by looking at them too hard. I've been thinking about what you've said about rhinos being too fragile, but they're still fast enough to get the job done. Besides, there are plenty of assault armies that would be destroyed during turns running at them. Consider this: Bolt of change has a range of 18". A Rhino with an assault unit goes flat out, 18". With proper spacing, a skilled player could wreck the transport, kill most of the squad off and send the survivors running. Even if they DO get into close combat, force weapons are 10 pts each. Three carriers properly spread out can attack six units in close combat and insta-gib each of them.

It's not a hard fix, too. I'd reccomend lowering Doom Bolt (which humbles even the most powerful terminators) to Assault 2, lowering the Strength of Bolt of Tzeentch to 9 at the least, making players pay for their powers (even if it's just ten points) OR limiting the number of sorcerers per squad. As it stands, these guys are the most powerful squad in the whole codex. If my guesstimation is correct, they could even take out most of the special character rosters.

A fluffy reccomendation would be to swap their BS and WS. Tzeentch armies are supposed to be squishy and shooty, not tough and choppy.

Another option I just thought of would be limiting them to one squad of warcovens per army. Psykers aren't easy to come by, and despite that the Thousand Sons were known for their extreme number of sorcerers, having more than 20 per army is a little cheesy. It was cheesy when the Grey Knights did it, despite that they had the whole galaxy as their recruiting grounds, and a squad of psykers, each individually very powerful is still cheesy. I was ecstatic when I heard that each Grey Knight squad would be able to use a psychic power, and I thought it was a genuinely good idea to only let them use a single psychic power per turn (which affected the whole squad). This feels like overkill to me. A squad of five sounds like a good number just thinking about it, that's three potential Str 5 AP2 As. 3 attacks, 9 in total and two Str 10 AP1 As. 1 attacks, which has a 2/3 chance to hit/wound and would kill approximately 3 terminator marines for a total cost of 230 (for 5 warcoveners and 3 force swords.) An assault squad of Terminators costs 200 points for 5, meaning that in a single round of average shooting, they're likely to almost make up their entire point value against a force that costs only slightly less.

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/20 07:47:33

Post by: Tyranic Marta

loving that dread idea for the HQ lord, would love to move one of those through the enemy ^.^

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/20 21:25:17

Post by: Just Dave

Grenat wrote:Hey o/

Nice to see a good work like this one !
I will recomend it to my friend who play CSM.
By what I can read, I think he will be very pleased !
(and we are fond of friendly games with special rules or fan dex, so no problem to test it )

Thanks Grenat! Much appreciated! Please recommend it to your friend; I'm about to implement an update, but otherwise it's my pleasure. Please tell me what he thinks of it! Cheers!

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I wanna see some battle reports with this Codex just to see how it turns out.

Me and you both!
From the little reports people have given me it seems pretty balanced and no more powerful than existing Codices.

Spellbound wrote:Why are obliterators costing more, but get worse in every way? No eternal warrior [not that they should have it, unless you leave them T4], still S4 T4, and have to pick 2 weapons, so they're worthless in assault if you want an assault weapon and a long-ranged weapon?

How are they worse in every way?! The only way they are worse is that they cost 5pts more; otherwise they are the same as the current Obliterators (a very good unit) but are actually capable of possessing more firepower.

Chaos vindicator still pays same price as marine vindicator and doesn't come with the second gun? k.

To be fair, that's how it is in the current Codex. Still, it was an omission and has been changed.

What the hell reason do you have for the daemon prince price jump, by the way? Building a lash prince as I have it now is 155 points. Under your codex, the exact same model with the exact same abilities, with +1 invul save, costs 215! And it's not really any harder to kill! How in the world can you justify that?

I've stated my reasoning behind this before. Look at the current Daemon Prince compared to the Lord/Sorcerer and what you get for 10pts more. The Daemon Prince's cost has been changed recently anyway, but as I said I've stated my reasoning behind this several times. Similarly, compare him to the Dreadknight and Carnifex/Tyrant/Trygon.

I dunno, some things I like but on the whole, things seem way overpowered or WAY WAY overcosted. And the marks seem more about restricting what you can take, rather than granting access to mark-only things. What if I want a Slaanesh-marked defiler with I4, but I don't want blastmasters? Why does it have fewer attacks? Why does that upgrade cost so many points?

If you don't want Blastmasters then you just use the ordinary defiler? The -1 attack was due to balance and to focus it on shooting; where you pay points for the 8 Strength 7 shots.

You need to rethink some of those options. Rather than saying "you get the mark of slaanesh, and this and this, and you lose this and this, period, if you pay x points" say "you may buy the mark of slaanesh, which gives you this bonus. Then you can buy these upgrades". Now, when I'm paying points, I'm getting a BENEFIT [+1 initiative], and I've now unlocked the OPTION to buy myself blastmasters if I like the idea of a dakka defiler running around [though I still can't fire the battle cannon and another gun, which kinda blows. Might fix that, or allow the battle cannon to be replaced], or maybe even allow the heavy flamer to be a twin-linked doomsiren, or make a vehicle-class doomsiren that's S6.

I designed the mark-specific defilers to be as they're described in the fluff (look up defilers on lexicanum for an example). If you don't want that flavour of defiler then can you not just use a normal defiler?

And why do the warbands have such arbitrary restrictions? No bikers for Tzeentch? No Vindicators for Slaanesh? Where's the fluff behind those, or did each legion just HAVE to have something they can't bring?

Both. Have you ever heard of The Thousand Sons using Bikers? Can you imagine when they were taken from prospero by Tzeentch he took their bikes with them too? It's seemingly unheard of in the fluff and doesn't suit their playstyle.
Vindicators are a very blunt, crude instrument. Slaanesh and the Emperors children appear to prefer grace and flow; enjoying the pleasure and delicacy of an enemy being methodically picked apart, rather than smashed into pieces. Quite simply a Vindicator doesn't appear to suit Slaanesh or the Emperors Children. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You buy the mark for a unit for a MODEL in the unit. Does this mean the mark goes away if that model dies? You clarified that if you combat squad both combat squads get the benefit of a purchased mark - so how does that work?

Maybe change it to the UNIT buys the mark. At which point I'd like to suggest maybe taking it back to the old school days and paying x points for the marks for each model, that way a 5-man squad and a 15-man squad pay appropriately for it, rather than 5-man squads being HOSED and 15-man getting off real cheap.

That was due to it originally being Icons; I simply replaced Icon with Mark, however you are correct with your observation and this has now been changed to make it the mark for the entire squad as was intended. Thanks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sacred numbers: Don't force small squads on people. Make the max unit size 20 models, and give the free champion to any multiple of the sacred number.

Think of army composition. If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? Blastmasters are mediocre but kind of an unreliable waste. If I go berserkers, they can at least take plasma pistols and honestly their hth attacks are good enough. Plaguemarines take normal meltaguns. Thousand Sons are stuck with the sorcerer trying to pop tanks. Perhaps provide options for the cult units to all be able to take care of armour? Why can't a noisemarine take a meltagun? Why can't a standard noisemarine carry a doomsiren? Only one blastmaster per squad? Look at grey knights for example - paying a lot of points per trooper, they don't depend on taking anti-tank meltaguns in their squads, they have the option to take 2 psycannons to handle anti-tank and anti-horde. Allow noisemarines to take multiple blastmasters and give thousand sons either the option to take a meltagun [seriously, why can't they?] or have an alternate profile for their bolters - instead of rapid-firing the bolter shells, give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range and two units can work together, one popping a transport and the other gunning down those inside, rather than being absolutely FORCED to depend on long-range fire from elsewhere in the army or being FORCED to take regular CSMs for the sole purpose of having some meltaguns.

In answer to many of your questions: balance and fluff.
Noise Marines all wielding Doom Sirens or Meltaguns would be far too powerful for the former and doesn't fit with the fluff for the latter.
The Noise Marines are pretty much as capable as popping tanks as the 'Zerkers; both can take PF and MB's; both can have 4 Str7 shots.
Thousand Sons are uniform and automaton; they don't appear to have specialist troopers other than the Sorcerers.
Regarding the need to take certain types of units to fulfil certain roles; that's the case within almost all codices.

Spellbound wrote:S7 can kill rhinos. But wasting everyone's fire and standing still so one guy can fire 4 shots is not very good. If every 1kson had a s7 shot, though, that's a lot of shots going into that tank. Look at what grey knights get for 20 points: 4 strength 7 rending or EIGHT s7 rending if they stay still. Put it in perspective.

Many units have only a single weapon that forces the rest to just watch (e.g. Psycannons vs. vehicles, Sorcerers vs. Vehicles, Tactical Marines heavy weapons, Grey Hunters vs. vehicles, the list goes on), it's nothing new for Noise Marines, if anything it's less of a problem due to squad size.
In perspective as you demand I do so; the Grey Knights are a completely different army with a different play-style (released after this fandex I might add), who lack anti-tank elsewhere and therefore must fulfil it with the Psycannon which is known as a VERY powerful weapon.
The Blast Master serves to add a greater punch to the Noise Marines; increasing their firepower and even allowing them to take out light vehicles if the situation demands it. The Blast Master is more akin to an autocannon than a psycannon IMHO and autocannons are a well-respected weapons that are used to take out light-vehicles and infantry alike. The Blast Master can possess just as many Str7 shots as a Rifleman dreadnought; what's considered a strong build.
The Blast Master firing 4 str7 shots would also be accompanied by 20 str4 shots; allowing them to work against infantry as was intended.
The Blast Master is primarily anti-infantry, however it can work against vehicles at a push; much like Noise Marines themselves.

11 points seemed like a steal for the slaanesh demons, 16 is a ripoff if they can't rend vehicles. Take off the no-vehicle thing or give them the grenades that codex daemons daemonettes have. Or just use codex: daemons daemons.

The Grenades thing is an idea which I'll consider.
I've also covered in-depth why I'm not porting the entries straight from the Daemons Codex, but basically it comes down to balance.
I can see what you're saying about the rending, but bear in mind 5pts for Fleet, +1 Initiative and Non-vehicle rending is still a good deal; rending alone can be worth those 5pts.

And yeah, I got that when it rebels you don't get any saves. What I mean is, does it still ignore enemy armor saves. You said it loses all its abilities, I was wondering if that includes being a power weapon.

Yep, that would include power weapon status.

And why is a daemon weapon more expensive for a daemon prince anyway? They already ignore armour saves, which is a large part of the daemon weapon's cost. They don't really have any more attacks and they already wound on a 2+, so giving extra strength is mind of a moot point. Other abilities like poisoned 3+ actually nerf the daemon's strength. Sure they get a re-roll, but so would a S4 chaos lord against many things.

Due to feedback; originally I had them at the same price because I thought the loss of power weapon bonus was enough; however feedback has seemed to suggest that with a Daemon Weapon they can become VERY powerful and I have to agree. The +D6 attacks is a big thing, whilst the other bonuses Daemon Weapons are also very powerful. I'd imagine 3+ re-rollable is actually better odds than 2+, whilst I'd also imagine the lord would be 4+'ing most things without a Daemon Weapon.

Lucius the Eternal was the specific character I was looking at. I was comparing him to a typical character that can achieve similar things for fewer points. A wolf lord can be eternal warrior and get the re-rolls on everything, not just enemy independent characters, and have a 4+ invul save all the time, not just against characters and monsters, for cheaper. He doesn't have a doomsiren and WS7 I7, though, which I'll admit comes in handy.

Please described to me such a Wolf Lord...
I'm pretty pleased with Lucius actually; the Doomsiren itself is a powerful weapon, whilst eternal warrior, re-rolling wounds, initiative and WS all make him a deadly combatant, but even more so against characters IMHO.

I think the special characters should have more fancy rules. Not necessarily to make them more deadly - yeah it's nice to get re-rolls to everything for example - but to make them more characterful. Lucius's whip and skill could be made into some sort of parry rule. Take away all re-rolls [though re-rolling to hit for being such a good swordsman would be nice], give him a lot of attacks, and have him basically sacrifice an attack to rob enemy models of attacks. Say Lucius gets 5 base attacks, plus one for two weapons. A chaplain charges and has 5 attacks total. Lucius sacrifices all but one attack, takes away all the chaplain's attacks, and still has one to spare to get in lucky thrusts.

I'd rather just have Lucius be more likely to kill the Chaplain before he attacks than rely on a single attack.

Typhus's psychic powers can't be nullified - why? why him? Why CAN Ahriman's powers be nullified? Isn't Ahriman the better sorcerer? I'm fine if both want to pass psychic tests automatically because they're both skilled psykers [though I know at the moment you don't have typhus able to do that] but Typhus just seems to be the better sorcerer here. Also, as a general rule of thumb, compare Ahriman to Njal stormcaller. At the moment, in the current official chaos codex, Njal stormcaller is totally better than Ahriman in every single possible way imaginable - just keep comparing the two until they seem about equal in power, or tone down Ahriman's cost.

Typhus' powers appear to be more of a result of his corruption and influence of Chaos IMHO; you can imagine the effects of Nurgles Rot or Winds just seeping from his armour and being, rather than being physically/consciously cast. I may change Typhus so his can be nullified however.
Ahriman is the better Sorcerer; he can cast 3 times as many powers and knows all the powers. He also can augment his powers.
I'm unsure why you're comparing the Ahriman in the GW Codex to Njal, when this is about my efforts at a fandex. I consciously made him comparable to Njal in mine. Ahriman is BS5, can cast 2 shooty powers, can augment his powers and can cast more powers per turn, as well as being tougher and cheaper. However, Njal has his own Lord of Tempests rule; the arguably better SW powers and better nullification, yet costs more.

I hear what you're saying about lord mounts. Simple fact: Nobody takes one, ever. EVER. Competitive lists, fun lists, they're just not good. Know what's good? A thunderwolf mount. It makes them fast, it makes them tough, it makes them stronger and deadlier. They also have a better wargear setup so they CAN be more resilient. They can take storm shields, and the belt of russ, and otherwise get better invul saves than chaos generally can, because apparently chaos can't pick up a storm shield. A thunderwolf mount isn't just a bike, it's not toughness 4(5) it's toughness FIVE, which makes a MASSIVE difference in surviving melta shots and missile launchers. THAT is when it becomes worth it, and that's why we see wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts commonly, and yet NEVER see chaos lords on steeds.

I know what you're saying; in retrospect I will likely change Chaos Steeds to be more akin to TWC Lords, although I don't see why some of your comments such as the bike comparison and extra wargear come into account?

And no, your army list doesn't say only units of 5 can buy the gift of the gods. Only units of 5 can purchase one of the Gifts of Chaos, but the 5 point roll on the table can be made for an entire 10-man unit of champions if you wanted.

I know my own Codex! I thought you were referring to gifts of Chaos.

And yeah after reading the entries for the gifts of the gods, the only one I hate is 2. 1 is..... hit or miss. Yeah, you don't have your terminators anymore. But the unit you now have is ridiculously powerful still, and while the enemy gets the KP for the terminators, they don't get an additional one for the spawn so you can just throw them out at whatever you like. I just hate things that do NOTHING. Chaos seems to be the only army book where you can PAY for potentially NOTHING. Random buff? Sure. Random buff with chance for penalty? ergh.... not... uh-uh, don't really like it. BUT, it's only 5 points, so not that worried about it.

And that's the big thing for me. As I said before, you can get big benefits or a loss. Chaos is fickle, but not in such a way where you can't influence it or it will completely ruin your game (compare to the almost entirely random and compulsory Daemons Codex deployment or the old Possessed).

Um....why....why would preferred enemy: Space Marines need to be included in the space marine codex? Marines learn how to use their armor, sure, but they're not studying how to dismantle each other the way chaos space marines do. And CSM can modify their armor to suit their tastes or, often, grow into their armour so it's like their skin. The same rules don't go the other way. It's easy to implement that rule. All chaos space marines [not daemons or vehicles, which are too clumsy to really take advantage of such weaknesses] gain PE: Space Marines. Done deal.

I'm not sure why you're going on about their armour?
Regarding preferred enemy; the Space Marines hate the Chaos Space Marines too; they are a blight on their record; their image as humanities ultimate protectors and the Emperors greatest creation; every Chaos Space Marine is a worthy threat to the Imperium and a mockery of all the astartes once stood for. The Space Marines are staunchly loyal to the Emperor and their heritage; they have every reason to hate the Chaos Space Marines; they are the anti-thesis of what they stand for, the shadow on their past and the destroyer of their nobility. They too would have preferred enemy: Chaos Space marines if the CSM's did.
They wont however; it's a pretty clumsy and unnecessary rule IMHO and as we know the fluff =/= tabletop, in an ideal world that would be the case but it's not and it's not going to be at least in my Codex as I'm not also doing Codex: Space Marines (for now ). Honestly, I would rather not discuss this further.

Speaking of dreadnoughts, many times in the fluff CSMs [well, at least Word Bearers] will use dreadnoughts for sage advice. A dreadnought option for a chaos lord would be pretty neat. Just like buying terminator armour, you can buy a walker sarcophagus for x amount of points and it comes with a scourge and a gun. Keep the 5+ invulnerable save and some of the gift of chaos options. That one needs more thought, but it's a neat idea.

"many times" and "at least Word Bearers" seems to contradict itself. Nonetheless, whilst they may be used as sage advice, it's a significant difference from the leader of a warband (who may go psycho for extended periods of time too). This would require a whole new stat-line and whilst a cool idea I think it's best left to the current dreadnoughts. I am investigating a way to make them a Heavy Support choice also however.
Some of your ideas would seem more suitable for your own attempts at a fandex IMHO, rather than inclusion in this one.

If I come across as rude Spellbound that would be because I'm trying to avoid writing too much (brevity) and it's how you've come across to me. You may notice I appear to much more polite to Zub and Pskyo for example as they are the same to me. It's not intended to offend. It's not that I'm rejecting your opinion - despite how I may have perceived you as saying/intending it - I've taken a lot of it into account, however I admit, I still disagree with some of it.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Have you considered rewriting other codecies like Eldar or Tyranids? I think it would be neat to start a fandex team on Dakka, fixing really bad things and sending them into GW to be ignored.

Ironically I'm currently brain-stormed ideas for the Eldar as I MAY do them next...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a Tzeentch fan, I've got to say that the Tzeentch psychic powers (especially the Warcoven) is just too powerful. If the squad is large enough I can kill any enemy unit per turn by looking at them too hard. I've been thinking about what you've said about rhinos being too fragile, but they're still fast enough to get the job done. Besides, there are plenty of assault armies that would be destroyed during turns running at them. Consider this: Bolt of change has a range of 18". A Rhino with an assault unit goes flat out, 18". With proper spacing, a skilled player could wreck the transport, kill most of the squad off and send the survivors running. Even if they DO get into close combat, force weapons are 10 pts each. Three carriers properly spread out can attack six units in close combat and insta-gib each of them.

It's not a hard fix, too. I'd reccomend lowering Doom Bolt (which humbles even the most powerful terminators) to Assault 2, lowering the Strength of Bolt of Tzeentch to 9 at the least, making players pay for their powers (even if it's just ten points) OR limiting the number of sorcerers per squad. As it stands, these guys are the most powerful squad in the whole codex. If my guesstimation is correct, they could even take out most of the special character rosters.

A fluffy reccomendation would be to swap their BS and WS. Tzeentch armies are supposed to be squishy and shooty, not tough and choppy.

Another option I just thought of would be limiting them to one squad of warcovens per army. Psykers aren't easy to come by, and despite that the Thousand Sons were known for their extreme number of sorcerers, having more than 20 per army is a little cheesy. It was cheesy when the Grey Knights did it, despite that they had the whole galaxy as their recruiting grounds, and a squad of psykers, each individually very powerful is still cheesy. I was ecstatic when I heard that each Grey Knight squad would be able to use a psychic power, and I thought it was a genuinely good idea to only let them use a single psychic power per turn (which affected the whole squad). This feels like overkill to me. A squad of five sounds like a good number just thinking about it, that's three potential Str 5 AP2 As. 3 attacks, 9 in total and two Str 10 AP1 As. 1 attacks, which has a 2/3 chance to hit/wound and would kill approximately 3 terminator marines for a total cost of 230 (for 5 warcoveners and 3 force swords.) An assault squad of Terminators costs 200 points for 5, meaning that in a single round of average shooting, they're likely to almost make up their entire point value against a force that costs only slightly less.

Thanks for the feedback mate!
I can understand your concern; however would you still consider it a problem taking into account:
- Sorcerers still need a 3+ to hit with their nasty powers
- Sorcerers are only marginally tougher than your standard MeQ but cost almost 3x as much
- Sorcerers are very capable of killing themselves through perils
- Sorcerers can be nullified
- Sorcerers in sufficient quantity are very expensive.

As I said, I can understand your concerns; I think the Sorcerers are a fine line between balanced and too powerful. However, I do think they have several disadvantages to them; particularly with the amount of Psyker defence these days and how quickly a rhino could be taken out. I may limit their size or something however.
I must say, I'm unsure where you got your maths from, my simple maths puts them as killing about 1.7 termies in your above example:
- 9 Doombolt shots - 6 hit, 4 wound, 2.7 are saved from the 3++ which equals 1.3 dead TH/SS Termies.
- 2 Bolt of Change shots - 1.3' hit, 1.1' wound and only 0.4 unsave wounds are caused, totalling between 1 and 2 dead termies on average?
Against Tactical Marines this would still only be 5 dead marines I think...

This is all relying on them passing their tests and not suffering perils/nullification too.

Do you still worry about them now Psyko, considering what I've just described?

---

A new update will be coming soon I would expect...
Thanks! As ever, all feedback is welcome!

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/20 22:51:55

Post by: Spellbound

Wolf Lord, Wolf Claw, Belt of Russ, Saga of the Bear - 180 points, re-roll hits or wounds, 4+ invul save, eternal warrior. But his 4+ save and re-rolling are against anything, not just characters. Add in a doomsiren and I suppose Lucius is alright, but I just can't justify spending points for weaponskill beyond WS6....honestly even 5. It becomes so situational.

And the prince is right alongside tervigons in points cost? Sure....but that tervigon can give itself FNP and has 6 wounds, not 4. I'm upset because after spending the points for upgrades I want [wings, mark, lash] I'm at 215 points, and if I wanted to take what I always wanted on my princes in the current codex [daemon weapon] I'm up at 270 points.....and I still die to a squad of bolters rapid-firing just like I did 115 points less before. It's absolutely ridiculous that such an important, expensive model should die so easily. If a wraithguard and Chaplain Cassius can be toughness 6, then so can a daemon prince, and they really need it [and no, I don't mean buy the mark of nurgle - that should make you T7, EXCEPTIONALLY tough, even immune to S3 weaponry]. In order to be survivable at that kind of cost, they've got to put bolters into the 6 to wound range and drop plasma and autocannons to the 3+ to wound range. Meltas and missles would still ruin their day, but that at least puts it in the hands of the player to "avoid those deadly things" as opposed to "just cross your fingers if you're in range of more than one unit of anything, because you're probably dead".

As for the obliterators, it seems like they have to choose two weapons when they're purchased - no? That's not how it works? Then how are they different than currently? Choose two weapons a turn, it says. I see "turn" now and then I wonder.... why two weapons a turn? They can't fire two weapons, can they? If not, then it seems like they're exactly the same except for adding the warp cannon option - so why do they cost more? They became a ripoff when they went up by 5 points and lost all their resiliency in the change from last codex to this one, why have they gotten none of that back and gone up again in yours? I don't understand. Shouldn't those behemoths be as tough as a plaguemarine, at least?

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/20 23:59:58

Post by: crazypsyko666

Well, I'd be happy to help, Dave.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/21 11:58:29

Post by: Just Dave

Spellbound wrote:And the prince is right alongside tervigons in points cost? Sure....but that tervigon can give itself FNP and has 6 wounds, not 4. I'm upset because after spending the points for upgrades I want [wings, mark, lash] I'm at 215 points, and if I wanted to take what I always wanted on my princes in the current codex [daemon weapon] I'm up at 270 points.....and I still die to a squad of bolters rapid-firing just like I did 115 points less before. It's absolutely ridiculous that such an important, expensive model should die so easily. If a wraithguard and Chaplain Cassius can be toughness 6, then so can a daemon prince, and they really need it [and no, I don't mean buy the mark of nurgle - that should make you T7, EXCEPTIONALLY tough, even immune to S3 weaponry]. In order to be survivable at that kind of cost, they've got to put bolters into the 6 to wound range and drop plasma and autocannons to the 3+ to wound range. Meltas and missles would still ruin their day, but that at least puts it in the hands of the player to "avoid those deadly things" as opposed to "just cross your fingers if you're in range of more than one unit of anything, because you're probably dead".

You're only looking at the Tervigon; not the others I mentioned.
Still, it still requires A LOT of Bolters to cause a wound and you can still purchase (albeit not cheap, but such upgrades shouldn't be) FNP or a 2+ armour save to protect against these small arms. Ultimately, it's still durable against small arms, however it's now more durable against the things that would reliably and regularly hit him; heavy weapons. As a Daemon Prince, what would you fear more? A squad of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers or a Squad of Grey Hunters?
Ultimately, I've toned the price down a bit, but a DP is still a very powerful character and something that allows this guy to double his speed (wings) has been increased in cost appropriately. For the kind of punch this guy can provide; he needs to have a weakness but remain powerful. He can still hide behind vehicles too as he doesn't have the size of a Dreadknight or Trygon. I can't make him too powerful/tough as he would be OP. He's not a glass hammer but for balance purposes he needs to avoid being too tough IMHO.
I did consider making them T6 instead of 4++, but ultimately that can arguably make them too tough and with a MoN he would be tougher than even an actual Great Unclean one. Heck, if you can provide a good enough reason to, I'll still make it T6, but as it stands, it's not happening.

Currently, in the edited version which I'm hoping to post soon, a winged Daemon Prince is 180pts. I don't know about you, but I'd still pay for that. Forget that it was 50pts cheaper before, but here and now, that still seems like a perfectly viable purchase to me at the very least.

As for the obliterators, it seems like they have to choose two weapons when they're purchased - no? That's not how it works? Then how are they different than currently? Choose two weapons a turn, it says. I see "turn" now and then I wonder.... why two weapons a turn? They can't fire two weapons, can they? If not, then it seems like they're exactly the same except for adding the warp cannon option - so why do they cost more? They became a ripoff when they went up by 5 points and lost all their resiliency in the change from last codex to this one, why have they gotten none of that back and gone up again in yours? I don't understand. Shouldn't those behemoths be as tough as a plaguemarine, at least?

Well I now realise I forgot to state they could fire 2 weapons, however even without this rule which will now be added, they are still more flexible that their current status.
As to costing more? Obliterators are easily the most competitive Heavy Support option in the Chaos Space Marine Codex; a 5pts increase each (which in itself is minor) represents this and makes them slightly less of an auto-take but represents their arguable position of superiority within that part of the FoC slot. Ultimately they are now slightly better than they were before too.

I really don't get how they are not as tough as a Plague Marine other than their toughness characteristic: they have twice as many wounds, a better armour save and an invulnerable save. Obliterators are more durable than Plague Marines. I can't think of a weapon that is more effective against Obliterators than against PM's.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Well, I'd be happy to help, Dave.

Well, one thing you could help with is... Do you still worry about the Sorcerers Warcoven being too god in light of my previous post?

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/21 12:31:31

Post by: iproxtaco

So I played a few games with it over the last few days and everyone was really impressed, as was I. I played 5, won 3, lost 1, drew 1. The few niggles that I had have actually been raised an dealt with already.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/21 14:15:53

Post by: Just Dave

Great! Glad to hear it went well man. Mind if I ask for more details and what your overall thoughts were on it?
Thanks a lot 'taco!

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/21 14:30:23

Post by: iproxtaco

The two that jumped out were Gifts of The Gods, the risk being quite high for some people, and the cost for the Daemon Prince. There were a few others, I'll get them some time soon, a few were quite big and specific. Like I said, I noticed that the under-costed Daemon Prince and the Gift of The Gods issue have both been addressed.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/21 18:13:44

Post by: Just Dave

OK, cheers man. I look forward to the rest of your feedback! How did you find the Codex as a whole too btw?

Reply by: crazypsyko666 - click to view full reply 

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Post by: crazypsyko666

I'm still concerned. I'll try to test this out with a friend of mine, but until that happens I'm resovled to say that they still aren't balanced.

Reply by: Sharkvictim - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Sharkvictim

Just Dave wrote:TS were tricky. I originally had a 3++ against shooting, however that still makes them as vulnerable against small arms as they all ready are and shouldn't be. FNP would be the simplest solution but risk making them too similar to Plague Marines and an extra wound benefits them in close combat where they should suffer the most problems.
If you could point out the problem with the All is Dust rule, then that'd be great, although politeness would be preferred. Otherwise, I struggle to see viable alternatives...

Based on the fluff you could give them an extra wound and it would be alright. I'm reading Battle of the Fang right now, and the rubric marines are badass in close combat, and current rules do not reflect that. The TS have the upperhand in cc because there is a sorcerer controlling them from the third person. Not only are they seeing the opponent, but they are seeing the rubric marine as well, and can arguably better asses the combat scenario on the fly. An extra would would make them more hearty, showing that they can go toe to toe with the best, or you can give them an extra attack, making them more lethal. An extra attack smacks of Khorne, so an extra wound seems more feasable. Most people will be loath to assault a troop unit with 2 wounds a piece, so this also would reflect how badass they are. Just an idea.

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Spellbound

For 145 points a wolf lord can ride a thunderwolf mount and be 1 wound shy of the prince's survivability. You could argue he lacks an invul save - but he's an IC and not an MC, so can get cover easily and join a squad. I guarantee you if he wasn't able to do those things, he would be MUCH cheaper. He's also got two extra attacks more than a daemon prince and the counterattack rule, as well as being faster and not hurting himself on terrain. Oh, and he has grenades, so difficult terrain doesn't make him a slow as molasses scrub.

Let's compare others.

A hive tyrant is 170 points. He re-rolls 1's to miss in hth, reduces all enemies in base contact to I1, causes instant death if the enemy fails a leadership test, comes with two psychic powers, a psychic defense rule, and an army buff that makes everything in 12" fearless. He has the same strength, initiative, wounds, and number of attacks as a prince. He has an extra toughness, however as well as an extra weaponskill. He's missing eternal warrior and an invulnerable save - luckily he'll be killing most instant death-causing things before they get to strike, since he makes them initiative 1. Since he is so important, he is able to bring along tyrant guard, a single one of which makes him able to easily get a cover save as well as providing two more ablative wounds, without sacrificing toughness. Notice that so far, since these HQ units are so expensive and important, that they are either able to join units or able to spend relatively few points to greatly increase survivability.

A tervigon is 160 points. Same strength as a prince. 1 less attack, way less WS and initiative. Toughness 6, 6 wounds, same armor save. Also makes his army fearless nearby, can extend the range of that, has a psychic defense rule, and can create units.

And honestly you're asking me which I fear more, a squad of grey hunters or the long fangs? probably the grey hunters. Long fangs will have 5 shots, 3 hit, all wound. Probably pass one of those saves, so they do 2 wounds. Squad of grey hunters has 2 meltaguns and 8 guys. They cost almost the same amount of points. That's 2 meltas that are likely to cause 2 wounds, but we'll say between the chance of missing and my invul save that they do 1. 16 bolter shots have a decent chance of doing 2 wounds after shots, saves, etc. come into play. Let's say they just shoot the pistols, though, which causes on average 1 wound. Then they charge. I'm going first, so my 4 attacks will kill 2-3. They are very likely then to get 2 wounds between the 21-24 attacks they have left. A basic squad like this is in most every army, and there's usually multiples of them. It's not hard for two to manage to get shots off. A prince really needs to be made to be more survivable. Hell that squad could have had plasmaguns and at the current way things are, would have killed him just by shooting without any hth needed.

I could almost warrant your high cost if he was T6 base. As it is, though, not a chance. I grimace taking princes even now due to how ridiculously easy they are to kill. Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.

And obliterators - well, if you were able to shoot two weapons then that's great! Two twin-linked plasmaguns at short range would be nice. Why the emphasis on extra offense though, and forgetting their defense? LOOK at the MODEL! Why does a plaguemarine have a higher toughness than that? You keep mentioning his 2 wounds, but a plaguemarine with a meltagun is less than half his cost and could kill him in one shot. But I see we are going to have to agree to disagree here. My opinion? 75 points is too much, without the S5 T4(5) they used to have. 80 isn't HORRIBLE if they can fire two weapons per turn, but it's still high.

Rubric marines need their 2 wounds back. This 4+ invul save they have now is BS. Sure it helps them out in close combat - but if they have 1 attack each, they're still not that great, just very resilient. Being hard to kill doesn't make you "good" in close combat. Being deadly does. You could make them always initiative 1, too.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Just Dave

Sharkvictim wrote:Based on the fluff you could give them an extra wound and it would be alright. I'm reading Battle of the Fang right now, and the rubric marines are badass in close combat, and current rules do not reflect that. The TS have the upperhand in cc because there is a sorcerer controlling them from the third person. Not only are they seeing the opponent, but they are seeing the rubric marine as well, and can arguably better asses the combat scenario on the fly. An extra would would make them more hearty, showing that they can go toe to toe with the best, or you can give them an extra attack, making them more lethal. An extra attack smacks of Khorne, so an extra wound seems more feasable. Most people will be loath to assault a troop unit with 2 wounds a piece, so this also would reflect how badass they are. Just an idea.

Just started reading that yesterday, so don't give me any story spoilers!
The problem with 2 wounds that I see is that it makes them arguably tougher than Plague Marines. How about making them S4(5), T4(5)?
Without grenades etc. they are not a good assault unit, however with S4(5), T4(5), I4 and the Sorcerer, they are a tough unit who would be able to hold their own if assaulted, although they would still have only 1 attack. They would still be definably more 'fragile' than Plague Marines however.
They'd be tough against shooting and assault, and be strong in assault, but more as a defensive, rather than offensive force.
Thoughts on making them S4(5), T4(5) instead?
As I said, I'm reluctant to make them 2 wounds however due to how strong this is for a troops choice and how it makes them arguably tougher than PM's.

Spellbound wrote:And honestly you're asking me which I fear more, a squad of grey hunters or the long fangs? probably the grey hunters. Long fangs will have 5 shots, 3 hit, all wound. Probably pass one of those saves, so they do 2 wounds. Squad of grey hunters has 2 meltaguns and 8 guys. They cost almost the same amount of points. That's 2 meltas that are likely to cause 2 wounds, but we'll say between the chance of missing and my invul save that they do 1. 16 bolter shots have a decent chance of doing 2 wounds after shots, saves, etc. come into play. Let's say they just shoot the pistols, though, which causes on average 1 wound. Then they charge. I'm going first, so my 4 attacks will kill 2-3. They are very likely then to get 2 wounds between the 21-24 attacks they have left. A basic squad like this is in most every army, and there's usually multiples of them. It's not hard for two to manage to get shots off. A prince really needs to be made to be more survivable. Hell that squad could have had plasmaguns and at the current way things are, would have killed him just by shooting without any hth needed.

I'm unsure where you're getting your maths from. My basic maths, suggests that:
2 Meltaguns - 1.33' hit, 1.1' wound, 0.55' wounds unsaved. (with Plasma Guns this is 1.1 unsaved - so he wouldn't be dead just from shooting.)
8 Boltguns - 10.6' hit, 3.5' wound, 1.18 wounds unsaved.
Total unsaved - 1.7.
In close combat:
30 attacks - 15 hit, 5 wound, 1.66' unsaved. No?

I could almost warrant your high cost if he was T6 base. As it is, though, not a chance. I grimace taking princes even now due to how ridiculously easy they are to kill. Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.

That strikes me as odd, as as it stands, Daemon Princes are considered a very good choice, rather than warranting 'grimace' or 'same steaming pile'...

---

I would like to discuss this civilly however, rather than throwing such terms about regarding the T6 on the DP; would you be wanting this on top of, or instead of the 4++?

Reply by: iproxtaco - click to view full reply 

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Post by: iproxtaco

Just Dave wrote:OK, cheers man. I look forward to the rest of your feedback! How did you find the Codex as a whole too btw?

Absolutely great. The best points are the Warband rules, Heretics, Gift of the Gods and Summoned Daemons. I play Word Bearers, very fluff oriented so all these additions means I can actually play my army how I want it. The Warband rules especially, allows me to field a Dark Apostle. Gift of The Gods was hilariously fun to use, especially when you have 3 out 5 terminators turn to spawn in a game. Not to worry though, I use Terminators in all my lists and it only happened one other time out of the 5 games (IIRC) I played. It performed really well. I'm an average commander, but I found the codex very easy to read and understand which actually made me half decent which is a testament to the effort and quality put in to the book. My opposition agrees however, that it isn't over-powered, just very good, like Dark Eldar levels of good on the table, which is competitive but not absolute top and therefore not subject to ridicule like SW or IG. With a little bit of discussion I should be able to post a battle report, my Word Bearers against Orks, and also a detailed explanation of what some people spotted as being a bit iffy.

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Spellbound

For your price, definitely on top of.

And no, princes aren't considered good now. They're considered better than overpriced sorcerers and weak, emo wrist-cutting chaos lords. I honestly liked the old mastery rules, if you kill anyone make a leadership test and if failed take a wound with no saves. They didn't give plus d6 attacks back then though. I'm fine with taking a wound, but all these extra penalties just feels like chaos gets kicked while it's down. Can't the penalty be, after losing a wound of course, that you only got one extra attack?

Hell I just wish they'd copy/paste the old chaos lord entry and put it in the next codex. Perfect customizability back then.

Reply by: Samus_aran115 - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Samus_aran115

Can I just suggest one thing? I like everything in the codex except this.

What about adding a Unit equivalent to "Chaos Venerable Dreadnought"? Lose the crazed rule, and gain a BS and a WS for maybe.... 70 points? I would pay a lot to have a great gun-tote like a venerable in my chaos army. It could be an elites, or maybe even an HQ choice.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/22 22:07:27

Post by: Just Dave

iproxtaco wrote:Absolutely great. The best points are the Warband rules, Heretics, Gift of the Gods and Summoned Daemons. I play Word Bearers, very fluff oriented so all these additions means I can actually play my army how I want it. The Warband rules especially, allows me to field a Dark Apostle. Gift of The Gods was hilariously fun to use, especially when you have 3 out 5 terminators turn to spawn in a game. Not to worry though, I use Terminators in all my lists and it only happened one other time out of the 5 games (IIRC) I played. It performed really well. I'm an average commander, but I found the codex very easy to read and understand which actually made me half decent which is a testament to the effort and quality put in to the book. My opposition agrees however, that it isn't over-powered, just very good, like Dark Eldar levels of good on the table, which is competitive but not absolute top and therefore not subject to ridicule like SW or IG. With a little bit of discussion I should be able to post a battle report, my Word Bearers against Orks, and also a detailed explanation of what some people spotted as being a bit iffy.

Great! I'm glad it seemed to go so well; I'm also really glad you enjoyed Gift of the Gods! It's almost certainly my favourite piece of wargear; you could have a character with 2+3++ re-rollable, or your 180pts character could get turned into a Chaos Spawn! I like the variety of things you used too; thematic and broad to help me!
Thankfully, that's the kind of power-level I was aiming for; 5th edition powerful (as any 5th edition Codex should be), but not over-powered. Basically how I'd hope the CSM Codex to be.
I really appreciate the feedback man; seriously. Thanks a lot man!
Of course, I also look forward to the later feedback, particularly hopefully working out any kinks. I look forward to a potential battle-report of sorts too.
Thanks again man, it's really helpful. Thank your friends for me too!

Spellbound wrote:For your price, definitely on top of.

And no, princes aren't considered good now. They're considered better than overpriced sorcerers and weak, emo wrist-cutting chaos lords. I honestly liked the old mastery rules, if you kill anyone make a leadership test and if failed take a wound with no saves. They didn't give plus d6 attacks back then though. I'm fine with taking a wound, but all these extra penalties just feels like chaos gets kicked while it's down. Can't the penalty be, after losing a wound of course, that you only got one extra attack?

Hell I just wish they'd copy/paste the old chaos lord entry and put it in the next codex. Perfect customizability back then.

uhuh.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Can I just suggest one thing? I like everything in the codex except this.

What about adding a Unit equivalent to "Chaos Venerable Dreadnought"? Lose the crazed rule, and gain a BS and a WS for maybe.... 70 points? I would pay a lot to have a great gun-tote like a venerable in my chaos army. It could be an elites, or maybe even an HQ choice.

Well, that's not in the Codex, so you like everything in the Codex.
I did consider that before, but I was unsure how to include it without creating another unit choice...
I assume with what you're suggesting you also meant the 'venerable' rule? I'm currently also looking into an upgrade that could make them a Heavy Support choice, as suggested by someone else. The easiest way would be to make Dreads a heavy support choice normally then have a separate unit like the one you describe as the elites choice - however the HS slot is pretty well accounted for as it is!
I may make the removal of crazed and adding the venerable rule as the MoCU additions, rather than the current.
What I'm currently thinking is an upgrade which makes the front armour 13 and the Dread a Heavy Support choice. (15-20pts-ish?) Then the MoN would either make the front armour 14, or - more likely - confer a rule akin to venerable?
I guess I could make a similar option to removed crazed and improve BS/WS and maybe add venerable, probably around 25-30pts for that, 60 with venerable...

Thoughts?

Reply by: Tyranic Marta - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Tyranic Marta

I like the idea of having a dread HQ, would field it like every game

maybe ws6, bs5, s6(10), F12, S12, R10, (To represent having a highly defended HQ,

Equipped with a dreadnought close combat weapon, incorporating a twin linked bolter, and a heavy bolter? on the other arm.

May take some different gun choices, (Multimelta, Reaper autocannon, Plasmacannon TL lascannon.) and a DCCW incorporating a twin linked bolter

may exhange one or both twin linked bolter(s) for a heavy flamer for 5points each

give him some upgrades from the codex that make sense and Voila

may also be an idea to allow him to be upgraded to a Venerable sorceror exchanging one of the DCCW for a Dread close combat force weapon and some psker powers

and be given some

Reply by: Spellbound - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Spellbound

Make it armor 13 like a furioso and we'd be good to go.

And hey, I get it. You want daemon princes to be super expensive "just for fun" choices just like flyrants. Fine. Just make sure the options for lords are amazing then, because princes will be a thing of the past.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Just Dave

Tyranic Marta wrote:I like the idea of having a dread HQ, would field it like every game

maybe ws6, bs5, s6(10), F12, S12, R10, (To represent having a highly defended HQ,

Equipped with a dreadnought close combat weapon, incorporating a twin linked bolter, and a heavy bolter? on the other arm.

May take some different gun choices, (Multimelta, Reaper autocannon, Plasmacannon TL lascannon.) and a DCCW incorporating a twin linked bolter

may exhange one or both twin linked bolter(s) for a heavy flamer for 5points each

give him some upgrades from the codex that make sense and Voila

may also be an idea to allow him to be upgraded to a Venerable sorceror exchanging one of the DCCW for a Dread close combat force weapon and some psker powers

and be given some

Honestly, it's highly unlikely I will include a HQ dreadnought option; I don't see the reasoning for it within the background; they can be used as sages, sources of advice and wisdom etc. but I've not heard of them being warband leaders except for the case of an Ironwarrior commander. In the vast majority of cases, they would be more suited for the elite role, or an almost venerable status like I'm working on, but I really don't see the reason for a HQ choice like that; for one thing they're unlikely to be too effective in-game although of course that's something that can be worked on.
Ultimately, you could just counts-as with a DP if you really wanted to.
I may consider it as a special character, but I highly doubt I'll make it a HQ choice tbh.

Spellbound wrote:Make it armor 13 like a furioso and we'd be good to go.

And hey, I get it. You want daemon princes to be super expensive "just for fun" choices just like flyrants. Fine. Just make sure the options for lords are amazing then, because princes will be a thing of the past.

No, I'm currently considering changing the Daemon Prince to T6 and whatnot.
What I don't care for however is you constantly throwing phrases around like "slow as molasses scrub.", "Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.", "emo wrist-cutting chaos lords" etc. what I'm looking for is constructive feedback, not exaggerated vitriol tbh.
I appreciate some of the feedback you've provided; helped me identify mistakes such as the Oblits, Marks etc. but the above kind of comments just frustrate me tbh.
I understand you feel DP's should either cost less or be more survivable, that's all you needed to say.

Reply by: Praxiss - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Praxiss

See, now i want a Dread HQ for my IW army. Will have to look into converting a Venrable with a big feth off hammer.

Reply by: Samus_aran115 - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Samus_aran115

Well, that's not in the Codex, so you like everything in the Codex.
I did consider that before, but I was unsure how to include it without creating another unit choice...
I assume with what you're suggesting you also meant the 'venerable' rule? I'm currently also looking into an upgrade that could make them a Heavy Support choice, as suggested by someone else. The easiest way would be to make Dreads a heavy support choice normally then have a separate unit like the one you describe as the elites choice - however the HS slot is pretty well accounted for as it is!
I may make the removal of crazed and adding the venerable rule as the MoCU additions, rather than the current.
What I'm currently thinking is an upgrade which makes the front armour 13 and the Dread a Heavy Support choice. (15-20pts-ish?) Then the MoN would either make the front armour 14, or - more likely - confer a rule akin to venerable?
I guess I could make a similar option to removed crazed and improve BS/WS and maybe add venerable, probably around 25-30pts for that, 60 with venerable...

Thoughts?

That sounds perfect. Literally ANYTHING that puts it on par with the furioso would make me happy. I'm tempted to say that you could make it a FA choice, just so it wouldn't take up those valuable slots other stuff

An HQ dread would be great, but I don't see a particular reason for one. They're so rare in the fluff... I think there's two that I know of. It would mess around with the banners and what-not too much.

Reply by: Just Dave - click to view full reply 

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Just Dave's Chaos Space Marine Codex - FULL PDF CODEX - With added Drop Pods. @ 2011/06/23 16:13:44

Post by: Just Dave

OK, how's about this (attached) for the 'venerable' dreadnought?
It's not final yet, the name at the very least is pending. If it does go in it'll probably look something like that however. I admit, I'm not too sold on it yet however.

I'll also probably be adding a rule whereby if "Dreadnought has replaced its Close Combat Weapon with a Twin-linked Autocannon or a Missile Launcher then it may instead be taken as a Heavy Support Choice" - but this would not apply to the Grand Dreadnought as they are, of course, Elites.

I'll likely be changing the Daemon Prince to T6, but taking it's save down to 3+5++ again, with the Daemonic Protection gift available to improve it to 4++. This decision was influenced in no small part by the comments by Mannahnin here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/330496.page#2180581
It's cost will probably remain the same.

Thoughts?

1

Filename	Grand Dreadnought.pdf	Download
Description	Prototype Rules for Additional Dreadnought
File size	141 Kbytes

Reply by: woodbok - click to view full reply 

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Post by: woodbok

I like the codex, But I've got confused by something. On the predator profile, it says"Hellcannon". On the summery, it says"hellfire". Was this a typo?

Reply by: Praxiss - click to view full reply 

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Post by: Praxiss

i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.

Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?

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