Love the Grand dreadnought, definitely makes me want to pick up a few FW dreads. Working on that Battle Report and just need some people to get back to me about their problems, should have both sometime early next week.
Praxiss wrote:i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.
Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?
My exact thoughts as well. Aside from that, I like it immeasurably! One thing I noticed...
MON is pretty underwhelming. HBs usually always wound on a 3+ (against marines) anyway, and against guard, tau, DE, etc, it would be a serious handicap (although a smart player wouldn't even take a HB against those armies )
Seems fantastic, although the name is a bit blase Maybe "INCORRIGIBLE DREADNOUGHT", or "IRREDEEMABLE DREADNOUGHT" Something Brutal, yet witty
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Hawk wrote:Im not a fan of the All is dust rule for the 1k sons. I like the 4+ invuln much better. Other than that its pretty cool.
They had all is dust in third edition, and they were amazing. Try it out before you knock it
The argument could be made that the Thousand Sons simply need a +3 invul.
How is it that the Chosen Space Marines of the psyker god can't get a +3, but a storm shield can?
Add onto that that 1k Sons can't get storm shields (or anyone in Chaos for that matter) and it seems kind of silly.
A +3 invul would make them significantly harder to kill, and not make them seems plaguey.
woodbok wrote:I like the codex, But I've got confused by something. On the predator profile, it says"Hellcannon". On the summery, it says"hellfire". Was this a typo?
Whoops. Yep, that's a typo: they're both the same Str6, AP3 weapon; I'll fix that now. Thanks!
Praxiss wrote:i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.
Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?
Whoops. Yep, that's another typo; it's a result of C&P'ing the Dreadnought page. Good catch!
iproxtaco wrote:Love the Grand dreadnought, definitely makes me want to pick up a few FW dreads. Working on that Battle Report and just need some people to get back to me about their problems, should have both sometime early next week.
Cheers man. Thanks for the update too, I look forward to it!
Samus_aran115 wrote:
Praxiss wrote:i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.
Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?
My exact thoughts as well. Aside from that, I like it immeasurably! One thing I noticed...
MON is pretty underwhelming. HBs usually always wound on a 3+ (against marines) anyway, and against guard, tau, DE, etc, it would be a serious handicap (although a smart player wouldn't even take a HB against those armies )
Seems fantastic, although the name is a bit blase Maybe "INCORRIGIBLE DREADNOUGHT", or "IRREDEEMABLE DREADNOUGHT" Something Brutal, yet witty
glad you like it; judging from the feedback it'll probably go in the 'dex in this case.
I'll change the Heavy Bolter then; maybe 2+ or remove that part of the rule altogether...
I'm not sold on the name either tbh, but I'm not really sold on the ones you suggested either! Cheers Samus!
Hawk wrote:Im not a fan of the All is dust rule for the 1k sons. I like the 4+ invuln much better. Other than that its pretty cool.
Cheers. The problem is with the current all is dust (4++) is that it doesn't make them any tougher against Small Arms fire, against which they are supposed to be extremely resilient; combine this with the fact they cost almost 50% more than an average Space Marine and it's a problem IMHO.
Sharkvictim wrote:The argument could be made that the Thousand Sons simply need a +3 invul.
How is it that the Chosen Space Marines of the psyker god can't get a +3, but a storm shield can?
Add onto that that 1k Sons can't get storm shields (or anyone in Chaos for that matter) and it seems kind of silly.
A +3 invul would make them significantly harder to kill, and not make them seems plaguey.
As I said to Hawk, 3++ doesn't make them any tougher against small arms fire which is supposed to be incredibly ineffective against TS. Similarly, combine this with their cost and it doesn't bode well IMHO.
As to the Storm Shield vs. Tzeentch; I think the storm shield manages it on account of being a large, reliable piece of technology...
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Any name suggestions for the 'Venerable Dreadnought'? I know I'm not sold on Grand Dreadnought. Other consideration I had were:
- Lord Dreadnought
- Arch-Dreadnought
- Dreadnought Magnate (probably my personal favourite)
For the mark of nurgle, you can make its heavy bolter a poisoned 3+ and offer a 5 point discount on replacing it with other weapons [since they wouldn't have the rule].
Playtest the Unyielding rule, I think I like it, although in small games when someone has ONE anti-tank weapon, that makes it utterly impossible to kill lest they get lots of glancing hits. Maybe a -1 to enemy rolls on the damage table? Ignore glancing hits? First immobilized result just makes it walk as though through difficult terrain all the time?
Also: 165? Compare to Death Company dreadnought which is also WS5, but has furious charge and ignores shaken and stunned results. Sure it also has rage, but it also has blood talons. It's only 125. Oh and it's fleet.
I'd say no more than 140 base cost, since Unyielding is pretty awesome. Still though, 125 for a Furious charge, fleet, ignore shaken stunned dreadnought, despite it having rage, makes this guy look quite overpriced at 165.
Spellbound wrote:
Also: 165? Compare to Death Company dreadnought which is also WS5, but has furious charge and ignores shaken and stunned results. Sure it also has rage, but it also has blood talons. It's only 125. Oh and it's fleet.
I'd say no more than 140 base cost, since Unyielding is pretty awesome. Still though, 125 for a Furious charge, fleet, ignore shaken stunned dreadnought, despite it having rage, makes this guy look quite overpriced at 165.
I'd say it's more akin to the Venerable Dreadnought, than the Furioso, the former of which it's the same price as. The way I priced it (roughly) was:
+15pts for WS5, BS5 (could argue it's 10pts worthy, in which case I'll drop it down)
+10pts for removal of crazed
+25-30pts for Unyielding (lets say it's 5pts a turn).
I'll probably drop it down to 160 however, assuming it goes in the Codex.
I figured Unyielding is probably on par with Venerable, however in regards to smaller point games, hopefully it's balanced by the number of points spent on such a model alongside it being less durable than a Land Raider, which are also high risk/reward at such points?
For MON on the Grand Dread, why not have it so MON makes all bolter ammo poisoned (3+). That way you can take the Heavy Boltr for weight of fire, but you also know that your lowly TL bolter can wound anything as well.
It might also make more people think about taking the HB when they play armies like Nids with high T models. As it is right now i dont think many people take the B option on dread. I know I never do.
Praxiss wrote:For MON on the Grand Dread, why not have it so MON makes all bolter ammo poisoned (3+). That way you can take the Heavy Boltr for weight of fire, but you also know that your lowly TL bolter can wound anything as well.
It might also make more people think about taking the HB when they play armies like Nids with high T models. As it is right now i dont think many people take the B option on dread. I know I never do.
I dunno if this has been raised or not, but do the bonuses given to Lesser and Greater Daemons through Marks give them the same profile as those in the Daemons of Chaos codex? If so, fantastic, as I didn't think to check before now, if not, did you consider just putting the rules for Bloodletter etc.. in the codex? Also, what about drop-pods?
iproxtaco wrote:I dunno if this has been raised or not, but do the bonuses given to Lesser and Greater Daemons through Marks give them the same profile as those in the Daemons of Chaos codex? If so, fantastic, as I didn't think to check before now, if not, did you consider just putting the rules for Bloodletter etc.. in the codex? Also, what about drop-pods?
Nope, they give the bonuses described in (my) the Codex, regarding a copy and paste from the Daemons Codex, I didn't do this for multiple reasons:
- In their Codex, they are more balanced in that they have to weather a turn of enemy fire upon arrival; with the summoning methods here this wouldn't be the case and therefore you could easily have a large mob of power-weapon toting Bloodletters appear in your face and assault into your lines unharmed.
- The Daemons Codex is their Codex; in a way it would be stealing their thunder per se.
- Greater Daemons have a similar balancing factor above, add to that they have wings and that too is a problem; one of the balancing factors for existing Greater Daemons is their lack of manoeuvrability, take this away and add in the summoning rules...
I also didn't represent Dread Claws as a passenger-killing, rare, target-killing, then taker-offering transport is pretty damn difficult to represent in game IMHO. If I were to make it a normal Drop-pod, then it's just the same as the SM 'pod which again is stealing their thunder per se. and isn't too original IMHO.
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Currently working on the update for the next version. After 'taco's feedback, that may be the final version methinks.
Something that came into my mind is that maybe World Eater armies shouldn't only be unable to take sorcerers, but also all units capable of using psychic powers at all (psyker daemon princes, SC psykers, and the like).
Also, maybe Sorcerers should be able to become sorcerer lords (if thousand sons).
Fair enough, but I am glad that Daemons are field-able in a better way than before, it's very pleasing fluff-wise for me. The Dread Claw is the thing I was thinking of, it would be pretty difficult to represent. Maybe some form of deepstrike turn one jump vehicle with a table, like roll one D6, on a roll of a one some units inside are allocated wounds, on a 6, units can assault the same turn.
I hope to get the report and niggles presented clearly by Wednesday at the latest, some of the guys are pretty slow, and I don't like to pester them at all, lest I incur the ire of the neckbeard overlords.
Both of those are pretty much already the case;
Daemon Princes with MoK cannot take Psychic Powers and if a Psychic Power is rolled on Gift of the Gods then it's +1 strength instead. This means that models in a World Eaters warband can only be a psyker if unmarked.
If you look at the TS warband entry, their special rule upgrade is Sorcerer Lord, effectively providing Guide.
Cheers!
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iproxtaco wrote:Fair enough, but I am glad that Daemons are field-able in a better way than before, it's very pleasing fluff-wise for me.
I hope to get the report and niggles presented clearly by Wednesday at the latest, some of the guys are pretty slow, and I don't like to pester them at all, lest I incur the ire of the neckbeard overlords.
Particularly as a Word Bearers played I'd imagine!
That's fine man, I'm not trying to rush you, just stating my intentions. As I've said, the feedback is appreciated fullstop.
From a personal view, was there a reason that certain warband rules like Dark Apostle, Chaos Master aren't applicable to Sorcerers? I see that Icon of the TS makes a Sorcerer a Lord, but I would have preferred to put my Icon rule on a terminator sorcerer from a fluff perspective. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong.
The Dread Claw is the thing I was thinking of, it would be pretty difficult to represent. Maybe some form of deepstrike turn one jump vehicle with a table, like roll one D6, on a roll of a one some units inside are allocated wounds, on a 6, units can assault the same turn.
Daemon Princes with MoK cannot take Psychic Powers and if a Psychic Power is rolled on Gift of the Gods then it's +1 strength instead. This means that models in a World Eaters warband can only be a psyker if unmarked.
Sure, but you can after all combine two warbands in one army. For example having a second DP as HQ, not from world eaters, be a psyker. Would Khorne allow something like that?
If you look at the TS warband entry, their special rule upgrade is Sorcerer Lord, effectively providing Guide.
Oh I know that. I just thought that usual sorcerers cannot get that upgrade, which I think they should be able to.
Daemon Princes with MoK cannot take Psychic Powers and if a Psychic Power is rolled on Gift of the Gods then it's +1 strength instead. This means that models in a World Eaters warband can only be a psyker if unmarked.
Sure, but you can after all combine two warbands in one army. For example having a second DP as HQ, not from world eaters, be a psyker. Would Khorne allow something like that?
Yes, but then the HQ wont be World Eaters or Khorne aligned. Khorne realizes the need for allegiance to ensure victory, but his servants shun the use of Sorcery. Dave has succeeded in making it so that no Khorne aligned character can use it.
Yes, so long as they belong to a different Warband, which shouldn't really conflict with anything because they can't be affiliated with Khorne regardless.
Only give them 0-1 per army, unit cap of 10-50, Always attack last in combat, feel no pain but on a 5+(OR and that will be back necron thing), slow and purposeful, give them the same stats as a guardsmen, but with weaponskill 2 and cant claim objectives, Get extra attacks the more they outnumber you aswell
And there you have it, doesn't seem over powered, but still remains true to the shambling horde idea. Just have to work out a point cost.
"Get extra attacks the more they outnumber you aswell"
quite liked this idea
also i think they should still have the "Join us" rule, that was always a laugh, kill squad of ork boys... they all come back.... as zombies... which generate new zombies..... lots of fun
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, Always Strike Last, Must always move towards the nearest enemy non-vehicle, Cannot claim objectives, Undead (FNP on 5+),
For every 2 they outnumber you, they get an extra attack
Join us: Roll a dice for each infantry killed by the zombies. On a 1, add another zombie model
Toastedandy wrote:WSBS S T W I A LDSV 2 0 3 3 1 1 1 7 6+
Compostion: 10-50
Unit type: Infantry
Transport: Zombies may never use a transport
Wargear: Rotten teeth and broken nails
Special Rules: Slow and Purposeful, Fearless, Always Strike Last, Must always move towards the nearest enemy non-vehicle, Cannot claim objectives, Undead (FNP on 5+),
For every 2 they outnumber you, they get an extra attack
Join us: Roll a dice for each infantry killed by the zombies. On a 1, add another zombie model
Like it. Although I'll never use them, rules are cool.
If they always attack last in combat, why do they have an initiative of seven? Is that so it makes them harder to mowed down in a sweeping advance?
Side note: Initially the join us rule seemed a little over powered (since they get to swell their ranks) I was going to say, would a stipulation like the Gift of Chaos and Chaos Spawn and the Tervigon be needed? (Like you can't spawn anymore if you don't have the models for it?)
Plague Zombies will not be going in the Codex. Apologies, but they would be a 0-1 choice for a single warband, alongside (arguably) gimmicky rules and competitiveness, as well as being uncommon in fluff, they would most likely be a rare unit who I'd rather not give up another army list slot for.
Furthermore, I now struggle to see what Plague Zombies would add to the army; Death Guard don't exactly need more anti-infantry, whilst you could just get scoring (and potentially Anti-tank) heretics for a similar cost, or more durable and powerful Lesser Daemons who can also score.
As I said, Plague Zombies will not be put back into the Codex.
And mine if you can, its not important though.
From a personal view, was there a reason that certain warband rules like Dark Apostle, Chaos Master aren't applicable to Sorcerers? I see that Icon of the TS makes a Sorcerer a Lord, but I would have preferred to put my Icon rule on a terminator sorcerer from a fluff perspective. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong.
woodbok wrote:Also, Sorry to re-post, but can you answer my earlier question? Quoted here for reference.
Woodbok wrote:Also, does the Rhino have fire points? Or was that deliberately left out so you had to buy Open-Topped?
No worries, man, the re-post is absolutely fine and I REALLY appreciate the feedback, thanks.
I was going to answer it by correcting it in the next PDF update (maybe tomorrow) but basically, yeah, that was an omission/mistake and has been corrected to 2 fire points.
Thanks!
iproxtaco wrote:What about the Dread Claw, could it be workable?
I think it could be barely workable, but even so, it's a tricky implementation, would require an additional model and has it's own fluff issues (such as it's rate of appearance). I'll think about it man, but I wouldn't hold your breath!
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iproxtaco wrote:And mine if you can, its not important though.
From a personal view, was there a reason that certain warband rules like Dark Apostle, Chaos Master aren't applicable to Sorcerers? I see that Icon of the TS makes a Sorcerer a Lord, but I would have preferred to put my Icon rule on a terminator sorcerer from a fluff perspective. Sorry if I'm reading it wrong.
No, you're reading it right. My thinking was that Sorcerers aren't typically the head honcho of a warband as it were (except for the exception, TS), whilst they are obviously a solid in-game choice, it would enable more reason for Lords and the like.
Partially, it's my personal point of view, but also I think it's somewhat justified and shouldn't make a huge impact on gameplay.
Thanks again for the feedback 'taco.
Forge World has a model and rules come to think of it, see if I can find my copy of Imperial Armour Apocalypse.
I can see the reasoning now, I'm not bothered by it, it would have just been a personal preference from my own fluff point of view, but I can see that most other Legions would likely never have a Sorcerer as their leader but just as an adviser, like Sindri.
I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.
HQ Lord, jump pack, 2 Lightning claws, mark of slaanesh, Icon of the emperors children, Chaos armour.
FAST ATTACK
6 raptors, melta gun, champion with power fist.
The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.
Just Dave wrote:Plague Zombies will not be going in the Codex. Apologies, but they would be a 0-1 choice for a single warband, alongside (arguably) gimmicky rules and competitiveness, as well as being uncommon in fluff, they would most likely be a rare unit who I'd rather not give up another army list slot for.
Furthermore, I now struggle to see what Plague Zombies would add to the army; Death Guard don't exactly need more anti-infantry, whilst you could just get scoring (and potentially Anti-tank) heretics for a similar cost, or more durable and powerful Lesser Daemons who can also score.
As I said, Plague Zombies will not be put back into the Codex.
Shame tbh, I'll prob still use this codex, and use zombies for freindly games, they would be fun, but wether they will be competitive or useless, ill have to play test them. Speaking of which, I got a box of choas havoks unopened and 30 pirate zombies un made from the market for 4 euro. Sorted
So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.
A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.
woodbok wrote:I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.
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The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.
You say you used this list already? How did you find it was? The list and Codex, that is...
I imagine you'll do pretty well considering the W/L ratio in your sig!
Toastedandy wrote:
Shame tbh, I'll prob still use this codex, and use zombies for freindly games, they would be fun, but wether they will be competitive or useless, ill have to play test them. Speaking of which, I got a box of choas havoks unopened and 30 pirate zombies un made from the market for 4 euro. Sorted
4 euros?! Is that all?! Damn.
Obviously you're welcome to use the list man and if you play with it then obviously it's a friendly game, so ofc you could use Plague Zombies if you want to! Cheers man.
Slayersan wrote: So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.
A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.
Thanks A LOT for the feedback man and the compliments regarding the 'dex itself.
Are you saying both DP's were set-up in that way? Because that's over 500pts right there; of a 1500pts army! I can understand your disliking it, seriously, that's a powerful combination (bet you love your friend now! ), but then again, as you said, that's A LOT of points. More expensive than even the Swarmlord or Mephiston!
Ultimately, this guy still only has a 5++ (now), so heavy weapons should tear through him, as could many tougher assault units, such as TH/SS termies, beast-packs etc. whilst at 285pts each, their shouldn't be a vast number of other models to help saturation from being targeted in such a manner.
Similarly, the DW can also wound the prince 1/6 times, as well as PotW potentially self-harming him...
He's clearly very deadly, but he's also expensive and flawed.
I'm not sure how bad the situation really is to be honest, however you have clearly provided a genuine and worthy concern, so I'm wondering how it could be balanced.
Possibly a Daemon Weapon could be so the player could not take it alongside a gift of chaos? Admittedly, it wouldn't solve the problem of Psychic Powers & the DW, but it would help lower his damage potential? Particularly charging into cover?
Thanks again for the feedback and play-testing man, I appreciate it!
Toastedandy wrote:I'm going to be testing this list on the weekend against a all World Eaters list, Its going to get bloody
HQ Chaos Lord........................................................................145
Icon of the renegade - Pair of lightning claws - Unholy Might
Greater Daemon of Khorne..........................................................175
Elites
Chaos Chosen......................................................................197
6 Chosen - 1 w/Pair of Lightning claws - 2 w/ power weapons - 2 w/flamers
Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................145
Pair of CC weapons - Heavy flamer - MOK
Chaos Dreadnought.................................................................120
Helfire Cannon - Heavy flamer
Lesser Daemons of Khorne..........................................................110
10 Bloodletters
Heavy Support
Havoc Squad.......................................................................120
5 Havocs - Plasmacannon - Multimelta - Autocannon
1502 points
Great! Good luck man; I look forward to hearing how it goes! Gonna be messy.
2 pointers though:
- Bloodletters (Lesser Daemons with MoK) are 16pts each (they can't have warband Icons and therefore don't gain the -5pts mark cost - I'll clarify this in the PDF.
- You don't actually appear to have a method of summoning the Bloodletters (no icons)...
Good luck man, please provide feedback if you can!
woodbok wrote:I used this list today, And obviously it's really fluffy.
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The amount of fire power this list can produce is Quite high, and performs Admirably in combat as well. The lord goes with raptors, and they counter assault anything that gets near noise marines.
You say you used this list already? How did you find it was? The list and Codex, that is...
I imagine you'll do pretty well considering the W/L ratio in your sig!
Whoops, Ment to say I will use it. I'm playing in around half an hour or so.
Also, the reason I win so much is because I play to win, and don't take crappy lists. (Yes, even necrons can win )
EDIT: I'm playing my brother, and he's using eldar. The list is here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My game went downhill from the start. He had 9 AV12 Vehicles, and with AP- from the blastmasters puts me down. The chosen did fantastical well though, as normal.
Slayersan wrote: So I just finished playing a match verse my friend who was using this fandex. I found it and liked how it was so i gave it to my friend to play. He moans so much about his current chaos codex as he should. He took a bunch of noise marines/defiler/bassilisk and 2 demon princes in a 1500 pt list. It was mostly balanced, my one issue was with the demon princes. Ive read most of this thread on how people compare the demon prince to simliar creatures and they generally seem to want him to be even stronger. His demon princes were setup with the following: wings/ demon weapon(mark of slannesh) /Mark of slannesh/ demonic speed/ Psyker(warp time) for I beieve thats 285 pts. now I understand this is alot of points and he should be good, my issue is I think this is too good. I was a GK purifier type army and to be fair, not a fully optimal list so far. We also played dawn of war and he got to setup first which boxed me on my side and made his demon princes very close to me.
A demon prince with this setup has a threat range of 18 inches and on average 8 attacks on the charge, init 7 means he will go first and warp time means he'll generally get between 6-7 wounds to land. By himself he can easily wipe almost full squads with no chance to really harm him back in asault. Yes you can shoot him before he gets there but hes small enough to hide behind vehicles that move flat out. For his points I think he is a combination of too fast and too killy while being pretty durable. Im not sure what I would change but the combination of the daemon weapon and warp time is just too many attacks.
Grey Knights? Seriously?
So you never charged him [makes him initiative 1], or used psychotroke grenades to possibly make you auto-hit him, or reduce him to only 1 attack period, or make him I1? And statistically a squad or two shooting at him should bring him down, especially if you assaulted afterwards.
Or get in cover? He doesn't have grenades, he'd be Initiative 1 when he charged you. Or cast Sanctuary, making him initiative 1 when he charged? Or throw Crowe at one, so they die if they kill Crowe as long as you can pass a psychic test?
I just....I...I can't believe you couldn't kill them. You realize in the current codex I can take a daemon prince that, while not as killy as that, could still have 5 attacks on the charge and re-roll them all, but I'd also have an extra 125 points of stuff [that's almost a predator tank right there] to use to shoot your army? That's almost 5 noisemarines with a S5 AP3 doomsiren right there, I mean seriously. And my prince would be just as "hard to kill" as his prince.
I think this was a gameplay issue. The fact that if I took my current army list, but used princes from this codex, I'd have just as much prince survivability against most armies out there but I'd be missing 260 points of other troops I would have had using the current codex just seems off to me. They should be more survivable, or cheaper, or both.
Now, as for the dreadclaw - make it a drop pod, but not open-topped, and rather than sit there immobile shooting, make it become a walker after it lands. No DCCW, just give it several S5 or 6 attacks that don't ignore armor saves, but have it able to move and assault. With no fleet and not ignoring armor saves, and no gun, it shouldn't really cost that many more points than a drop pod. Also, to represent the different way it deploys [they are closed when they land, and only open on the bottom] allow the option for the guys inside to NOT disembark the turn it lands, staying in the drop pod as an AV12 vehicle with no fire points but access points all around it.
This gives the chaos guys the option of staying inside in case maybe the enemy has lots of guns, or they got some bad reserve rolls that turn, or want to just sit on an objective in an AV12 protective shell. They can then disembark and move and assault the next turn if they want, or even stay inside while it walks around. It'd be unique - the first walker transport! Also allow them to disembark in the space occupied by the dreadclaw, in case it gets surrounded and destroyed [they just drop out the bottom].
That sounds like a lot of special rules, but it's really not. It lands like a drop pod but stays closed. Guys can get out like a normal drop pod or stay inside. After landing it's a walker [yep a walker transport even]. Has access points all around but they can also disembark in the space occupied by the dreadclaw if needed.
Ooooo, if you want to make things more complicated [I'm basically predicting FAQ questions as I make this thing] they can disembark directly into an assault, if they're inside while it's engaged. That'd be a very unique way for chaos to deliver an assault army! Charge a bunch of AV12 walkers that deepstruck last turn into cc, then next turn disembark directly into the assault. That sounds cool!
The demon prince can have assault grenades through the Demonic speed upgrade which my opponent took. Since the demon prince has wings and can move 12" assault 6" It was far easier for him to assult me then for me to assault him. Lastly, my friend had 2 demon princes, 1 of them crowe took care of but that leaves 1 left. I will agree I should of done better, Ill chalk it up to not really being too familiar with what this fandex can do so I was cutoff guard with some of the moves my opponent made.
I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick
ZephyrRey wrote:I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick
A few problems I have with this idea is that A) it's not actually a walker, B) it doesn't represent it's danger to its occupants and C) doesn't represent the rarity of the thing (i.e. Renegades at least shouldn't be able to use it, rare within Legions etc.).
Amongst other, these are some of the reasons that the Dreadclaw isn't included in the fandex and I don't see it being so...
ZephyrRey wrote:I don't really agree with the ap- value on sonic weaponry. With they way it works in fluff of any kind, it really should have at least the ap5 that bolters do, especially to justify it as the 'anti horde' cult troop option.
Granted, I know that fluff can't be the biggest thing in codices, that isn't how it works, I'd still like to see some kind of ap value on sonic weaponry, otherwise they get the short end of the stick
I think realistically, the Sonic Weaponry should be something like AP2, as it largely appears to bypass armour and mess with the targets innards. The Sonic Weapons are - as you identified - intended for anti-horde, which they should still excel at. I'll do some basic math-hammer as to it's potential against MeQs & GeQ's Vs. existing sonic weaponry and boltguns.
My reasoning behind the AP- was to balance with its RoF, and how it can put out twice as many shots as the Boltgun and fire it's full range at all times.
Now for the maths; if this turns out to make the current weapons look bad, I'll change it.
(10 guns) Vs. MeQ (Heavy variant):
Dave Sonic Blaster - 4.44 (unsaved) wounds
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 3.33 (unsaved) wounds
Boltgun - 1.11 (unsaved) wounds
(10 guns) Vs. MeQ (Assault variant):
Dave Sonic Blaster - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 6.66) 4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 5.55)
Boltgun - 2.22 (unsaved) wounds (total - 3.33)
(10 guns) Vs. GeQ (Heavy variant):
Dave Sonic Blaster - 11.85 (unsaved) wounds
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 13.33 (unsaved) wounds
Boltgun - 4.44 (unsaved) wounds
(10 guns) Vs. GeQ (Assault variant):
Dave Sonic Blaster - 5.92 (unsaved) wounds (total - 17.77)
4th Ed Sonic Blaster - 8.88 (unsaved) wounds (total - 22.11) Boltgun - 8.88 (unsaved) wounds (total - 13.22)
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Judging from feedback then, it does appear that the Sonic Blaster does need a boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does pose a question regarding the Blast Master however, as I'm reluctant for it to be twice as good against vehicles and MeQ's. Chances are it'll be:
- Assault 4 - Str6, AP5
- Heavy 5 - Str6, AP4
Better than it currently is against standard infantry, but worse against vehicles. Flexibility wise, I'm sure many will complain, but then again, it's still capable of taking out light vehicles and frankly Sonic Weaponry should excel against infantry even at the cost of anti-armour.
I agree entirely with your judgements. I didnt notice that the heavy version was 4 shots a piece (skimming loses focus) so i can see why you were hesitant to give an ap value. I personally like the ap at 5 - good as the anti-horde, but still just as effective against anything with a 4+/better
I also like the blastmaster here. Granted, not a big fan of blastmasters in general, but there you go
Um... actually old school forgeworld rules had it as a walker after it landed. The "fins" on the sides are articulate - they have hydraulics at the top that help it move up and down - they could easily move outward as well.
Current forgeworld rules make it able to lift off and count as a flyer, so units can re-embark [even dreadnoughts] and then start flying around.
And they uh.... they most CERTAINLY don't have a shortage of dreadclaws. Battlefleet gothic gives every single ship with carrying capacity has dreadclaw assault boats and basically has an "unlimited" number. If you want to restrict the numbers, then limit which units can use them. But I do think they should be in the codex.
Judging from feedback then, it does appear that the Sonic Blaster does need a boost.
AP- really lets you down when against guard or orks.
Just Dave wrote:
Does pose a question regarding the Blast Master however, as I'm reluctant for it to be twice as good against vehicles and MeQ's. Chances are it'll be:
- Assault 4 - Str6, AP5
- Heavy 5 - Str6, AP4
I prefer this Blastmaster a lot better. Little bit more mathhammer for you.
V GeQ: Heavy
Sonic blaster: 1.19 dead per sonic blaster.
Blastmaster: 2.78 dead per Blastmaster.
V GeQ: assault
Sonic blaster: 0.59
Blastmaster: 2.22
I agree that Dreadclaws would be a nice addition. Still not sold on the them being walkers though. For them to have that and allow units to assault out of them AND be able to haveunits re-embark adn fly away...they would have to be pretty expensive, which means mst people most likely would not take them.
I say mix the renegade rules and the SM pod rules. Have it deploy in the same way as a SM pod (it works and is easy to remember). But keep the rule where units can re-embark. How about this...
If a unit is within 6" of their dedicated dreadclaw at the start of the movement phase (and are not fallign back or pinned), they may re-embark. The dreadclaw and unit are then placed back in reserves as the pod takes off again.
This might seem OP as the unit could then land again next turn and assault. But if it is placed back in reserve then the owning player will have to roll again for it to actually re-enter the game. Thus making re-deployment a devastating, but potentially unreliable option. To further mitigate it you could always add a -1 modifier to the reseves roll everytime the dreadclaw re-deploys or somethgin similar
I didn't mean for it to do both fly away and walk - one version of it had it walking, one version had it able to re-lift off. I personally like the idea of it being the first-ever non-superheavy walker transport. Being not open-topped it can't move, deploy models and then have them charge but special rules allowing an engaged dreadclaw to deploy its cargo directly into a combat it's in would be nice. And since it's AV 12, has no gun, and doesn't ignore armor saves in cc, it most definitely would NOT cost very much. Take a dreadnought. Remove its multi-melta and its DCCW and its storm-bolter. Keep in mind now that weapon destroyed results will count as immobilized, so it's much more fragile.
Since that dreadnought started at 105, how much do you think it's going to be worth now? Transport capacity isn't worth all that much - a rhino is barely more than two marines, and comes with a gun. A drop pod is 35 and is open-topped, but comes with a gun, but doesn't move. I really don't see dreadclaws being worth much more than 50, maybe 60 points to drop in and start walking.
Didn't think I had forgotten had you?
Just been (and still am) busy.
Notable changes:
- Daemon Princes replace T5/4++ with T6/5++
- Lord Vahlinhurst Fluff added
- Sonic Weaponry Changed
- Grand Dreadnought renamed Chaos Dreadnought Magnate
- Daemonic Steeds improved and points increased.
As ever, all feedback is welcome. Please play using this Codex and spread the word!
Thanks, Dave.
----
Regarding Dreadclaws, I sincerely doubt I'll include them after thinking about it. As I've said before; they're described as drop-pods that possess high-strength weaponry on the base, primarily used for boarding operations, can take off after landing, have been discontinued, have errant machine spirits that can cause the death of their passengers. Because of these things, representing them is tricky.
If I were to include them they would probably be along these lines however:
- AV12 all round. Fast Skimmer, Equipped with Deathwing Missile Launcher.
- May transport up to 10 models in power armour. Models in Terminator Armour count as 2 models, Chaos Spawn count as 3.
- Must arrive via deepstrike. When it arrives, roll 2D6 for scatter as normal. Place a Large Blaster Marker where the Dreadclaw will land, any models under this suffer a Str8, AP1 strike, if there are no models remaining after this then the Dreadclaw lands as normal, if there are then it counts as a deep-strike mishap.
- Roll a D6 for each Dreadclaw, on a role of 1 then the Dreadclaw scatters 2D6 inches without the above (blast) attack and the contents of the Dreadclaw suffer 2D6 Str7, AP2 attacks.
- Probably around 45-50pts: high-risk, high-reward strategy potentially.
As I said however, it's an unwieldy method that if it sticks to the fluff - which it should - would be unlikely to be used. Therefore I'm unlikely to include it.,
A quick question, why may Sorcerers not take the special ability conferred by the warband option? Especially for thousand sons this seems odd- I can make a Lord or a Champion into a 'Sorcerer Lord' even though he doesn't have any psychic powers, yet I can't make a Sorcerer into said Sorcerer Lord?
Was this just an oversight, or is there reasoning behind it?
Maybe an easier wording would be 'Any HQ with the Mark of this Warband may take X for Y points' so that you could give the named characters these abilities as well
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aside from that one concern (primarily because my friend and I are going to try a game against each other) here is a list I have written up for this game.
Now, I'm not looking forward to this at all, as I know I am going to be defeated fairly handily, because he plays thousand sons, he plays them well, and it's a shitstorm against MeQs. Especially with this psyker coven thing, which he is far too pleased about
Anyway, here is my Warband of the Night Lords list
HQ Lord Dual Lightning Claws, Doom Siren, Jump Pack, Mark of Slaanesh, Shadowlord 200 points
Daemon Prince Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Psyker (Lash) 210 points
Troops 10 Raptors 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Fist 255 points
10 Raptors 1 Meltagun, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Fist 245 points
10 Raptors 1 Meltagun, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Lightning Claws 245 points
If I have my math right, that's exactly 2000 points.
Now, This is a take all comers list that is going to get it's face handed to it when it plays against the aforementioned Thousand Sons list.
5 man squad is for camping an objective, rhinos can run around making nuisances of themselves by forcing leaderships at -2 (and hopefully in range of ShadowLord) whilst the noise marines cause havoc in the Land Raider.
All and all I tried to make a very fluffy list, which I am so glad I can do now, kudos, JD, I am very pleased with this list. It's just that I'm making an all comers list against an army that is fairly tailored to MeQ...
So keep an eye out for that incoming Batrep, I'll link it from here, and in the batrep i'll link to here.
Thoughts about this whole dreadclaw thing.... If you're going to do it, just make it for dreadnoughts only. There are lots of units in the codex that have astounding mobility (termies, raptors...all of the daemons), and I don't feel like a dreadclaw would really contribute that much besides making our dreadnoughts mobile instead of footslogging.
Or even better, just fundamentally add a 'may gain the deep strike rule for X points' and mention in the fluff that it's possible that they were dropped off my dreadclaw, but the player can make fluff accordingly. But still. It's not necessary.
Well the chances are it's not being included anyway Samus, so it needn't be worried about!
ZephyrRey wrote:A quick question, why may Sorcerers not take the special ability conferred by the warband option? Especially for thousand sons this seems odd- I can make a Lord or a Champion into a 'Sorcerer Lord' even though he doesn't have any psychic powers, yet I can't make a Sorcerer into said Sorcerer Lord?
Was this just an oversight, or is there reasoning behind it?
Nope, this wasn't an oversight. I answered this before saying "My thinking was that Sorcerers aren't typically the head honcho of a warband as it were (except for the exception, TS), whilst they are obviously a solid in-game choice, it would enable more reason for Lords and the like.
Partially, it's my personal point of view, but also I think it's somewhat justified and shouldn't make a huge impact on gameplay."
I for example don't imagine a Sorcerer leading a Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Night Lords etc. Warband, rather than being the 2nd in command or so. Similar circumstances can be seen by the roles played by Sorcerers in the fluff in that most of the fluff I've heard of has them as being subordinate to someone else.
Aside from that one concern (primarily because my friend and I are going to try a game against each other) here is a list I have written up for this game.
Now, I'm not looking forward to this at all, as I know I am going to be defeated fairly handily, because he plays thousand sons, he plays them well, and it's a shitstorm against MeQs. Especially with this psyker coven thing, which he is far too pleased about
Anyway, here is my Warband of the Night Lords list
HQ Lord Dual Lightning Claws, Doom Siren, Jump Pack, Mark of Slaanesh, Shadowlord 200 points
Daemon Prince Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Psyker (Lash) 210 points
Troops 10 Raptors 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Fist 255 points
10 Raptors 1 Meltagun, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Fist 245 points
10 Raptors 1 Meltagun, Mark of Slaanesh, Champ w/ Lightning Claws 245 points
If I have my math right, that's exactly 2000 points.
Now, This is a take all comers list that is going to get it's face handed to it when it plays against the aforementioned Thousand Sons list.
5 man squad is for camping an objective, rhinos can run around making nuisances of themselves by forcing leaderships at -2 (and hopefully in range of ShadowLord) whilst the noise marines cause havoc in the Land Raider.
All and all I tried to make a very fluffy list, which I am so glad I can do now, kudos, JD, I am very pleased with this list. It's just that I'm making an all comers list against an army that is fairly tailored to MeQ...
So keep an eye out for that incoming Batrep, I'll link it from here, and in the batrep i'll link to here.
GREAT!
Thanks man, I really look forward to seeing how it goes and what can be learnt from it. I really hope you enjoy it and I'm glad you can make your almost ideal list. Good luck man.
You'll be at a slight disadvantage in that they don't really worry about Leadership tests either!
Try to place your models so that they only need to face one round of shooting from the rubricae and bear in mind that being TS he'll either have few vehicles; meaning they can be taken out easier, or he'll have no vehicles meaning you can focus weapons that ignore all is dust against him.
Tbh, I have/am trying to think of a way to make it so TS aren't so specifically good against MeQ and short of a Psybolt rip-off I can't think of too much atm. Maybe making all armour saves +1 (2+ = 3+ etc.) however...
I really really look forward to hearing about it, thanks man.
Well, I might have considered taking a winged sorc of slaanesh with warptime instead of the lord, as WT is basically better lightning claws ( I would have used him as a counts as lord ) but I can't. In all honesty, if you cant use a sorc I don't think the champ should be able to get the upgrade either; denies these special rules in low points games, as a small skirmish force isn't lead by one of those 'leaders'
For the purpose of this game I'll probably let him make his sorc the sorc lord if he wants to, if you don't mind.
And also, I fully anticipate him to bring 3 squads of sons, a pred, a defiler (or two) or some oblits, or even a land raider. He has the hq choice of iron warriors, for one who plays ksons...
Also, I wouldn't really change the Ksons, save maybe the asp sorc gets the 4+ instead of the 5+ he has now. They pay their premium for being good against mech, and he doesn't have to take all rubrics, he can use normal marines too, so if he goes all out against MeQ it's his own choice in losing effectiveness against GeQ and the like. (we've been discussing this a lot, actually, as he and I are playing in a team tourny this weekend. Lol)
ZephyrRey wrote:Well, I might have considered taking a winged sorc of slaanesh with warptime instead of the lord, as WT is basically better lightning claws ( I would have used him as a counts as lord ) but I can't. In all honesty, if you cant use a sorc I don't think the champ should be able to get the upgrade either; denies these special rules in low points games, as a small skirmish force isn't lead by one of those 'leaders'
For the purpose of this game I'll probably let him make his sorc the sorc lord if he wants to, if you don't mind.
Well if he's using the TS Warband Rules, then Sorcerers can become a Sorcerer Lord anyway - that bit wasn't an oversight! You raise a good point of the Champs vs. Sorcerers however, tbh I've been considering removing Champions all-together.
I would point out that you could still have the Shadow Lord on your Prince and get a Sorcerer.
If I were you, I would've gone for the Sorcerer for the additional Psychic Deterrent alongside the Lord or Prince...
Also, I wouldn't really change the Ksons, save maybe the asp sorc gets the 4+ instead of the 5+ he has now. They pay their premium for being good against mech, and he doesn't have to take all rubrics, he can use normal marines too, so if he goes all out against MeQ it's his own choice in losing effectiveness against GeQ and the like.
(we've been discussing this a lot, actually, as he and I are playing in a team tourny this weekend. Lol)
Ha! Well you should know in that case.
That's a good point. I'm gonna do the math on the +1 to armour save change, but it's likely to stay as it is.
I know my friend's rolling. He'll never perils except for on a snakeyes. so no point running the sorc when i can run a better, more fire taking prince, that matches my fluff more anyway (my made up sorc character, or the actual dp character kreig acerbus) I like my fluff
Really wish i could use this codex in this team tourny...
Also, this is the entry for the TS lord:
A single Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord or Chaos Champion may select the Sorcerer Lord special rule for 30pts, conferring the following effect: so no, he cant take a sorc with sorc lord :/
Sorry Dave, I promised a Battle Report soonish, but there were a few problems regarding the lists used and what actually happened, and for some reason the pictures were all pixelated. That said, it's being worked on, I hope it provides some feedback when its finished.
ZephyrRey wrote:I know my friend's rolling. He'll never perils except for on a snakeyes. so no point running the sorc when i can run a better, more fire taking prince, that matches my fluff more anyway (my made up sorc character, or the actual dp character kreig acerbus) I like my fluff
Really wish i could use this codex in this team tourny...
Also, this is the entry for the TS lord:
A single Daemon Prince, Chaos Lord or Chaos Champion may select the Sorcerer Lord special rule for 30pts, conferring the following effect:
so no, he cant take a sorc with sorc lord :/
Crud. It at least is supposed to say Sorcerer there for the TS too; so yeah he can! I'll change that now, good spot man.
iproxtaco wrote:Sorry Dave, I promised a Battle Report soonish, but there were a few problems regarding the lists used and what actually happened, and for some reason the pictures were all pixelated. That said, it's being worked on, I hope it provides some feedback when its finished.
That's OK. I'd rather not have to wait as you can imagine, but feedback is feedback so it'll be worth it I hope! Cheers man.
------
What do people think of the idea of dropping Champions altogether?
Also, here's a Daemonbomb list under my Codex:
- HQ - Daemon Prince - Icon of the Word Bearers - Wings, Mark of Tzeentch (Bolt of Change) - 205pts
- HQ - Greater Daemon - 125pts
- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 220pts
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon & Personal Icon
- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 Meltaguns, Rhino - 220pts
- Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon & Personal Icon
- Troops - 8 Lesser Daemons - Mark of Khorne - 128pts
- Troops - 8 Lesser Daemons - Mark of Khorne - 128pts
- Fast Attack - 7 Chaos Bikers - 2 Meltaguns, Aspiring Champion w/ Power Weapon & Personal Icon - 232pts
- Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Lascannon Sponsons - 120pts
- Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Lascannon Sponsons - 120pts
Also, based on how I see the rules here, dont the CSM squads in that list have to have at least IoCG for them to be able to summon the daemons? 'Daemons with any mark (rather than just the same) may be summoned by a model with a Mark of Chaos Undivided' This and this: 'Daemons can only be summoned (or possess) by a model bearing the same Mark of Chaos as the Daemon, however Daemons without a Mark of Chaos may be summoned by any Personal Icon.'
This makes me believe that (as word bearers) you at least need IoCG in those csm squads if they want to be able to summon those knornate LDs.
On a side note, I read through your Primarchs ranking, and I could not like it more, unless you put Konrad up one more slot Nice to see that someone else knows how badass we are...
Overall I'm really happy with how the codex performed. I think that No Mercy! finally gave the MoS (and noise marines) the extra little buff they needed to keep up with the other cult troops / icons.
As a last note, I have challenged my brother to make a 2k GK list to play against this one. So batrep#2 to come once that game ends.
Just skimmed over it pretty damn good, never knew what cypher did adding him gave me an insight. Might actually have to play test with this with a freind of mine to see how the rules go (love the word bearers warband idea) any rate love it and def gonna use it in friendly games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh yea who is that matt guy that every one bitches about and compares to c.s. goto? have only been playing 40k for two years sorry if i am kinda a newb.
oh yea who is that matt guy that every one bitches about and compares to c.s. goto? have only been playing 40k for two years sorry if i am kinda a newb.
Personally, I think the Iron Warriors or Death Guard have the best looking Dread's of the lot, Alpha Legion a close 3rd for me though. GW really needs to make a plastic Chaos Dread kit and IMHO these rules would really support it.
Also, based on how I see the rules here, dont the CSM squads in that list have to have at least IoCG for them to be able to summon the daemons?
'Daemons with any mark (rather than just the same) may be summoned by a model with a Mark of Chaos Undivided'
This and this:
'Daemons can only be summoned (or possess) by a model bearing the same Mark of Chaos as the Daemon, however Daemons without a Mark of Chaos may be summoned by any Personal Icon.'
This makes me believe that (as word bearers) you at least need IoCG in those csm squads if they want to be able to summon those knornate LDs.
You know... You're absolutely right! Who's frickin' Codex is this?!
On a side note, I read through your Primarchs ranking, and I could not like it more, unless you put Konrad up one more slot Nice to see that someone else knows how badass we are...
Overall I'm really happy with how the codex performed. I think that No Mercy! finally gave the MoS (and noise marines) the extra little buff they needed to keep up with the other cult troops / icons.
As a last note, I have challenged my brother to make a 2k GK list to play against this one. So batrep#2 to come once that game ends.
Cracking!
Thanks a lot man; great to have a battle report for the Codex. Good to see it performed well, but not too well. Great report man. Seriously, thanks. I wonder how things may have changed had they been hammernators in that Redeemer and/or it didn't immobilise itself.
Great game man, thanks A LOT.
alabamaheretic wrote:Just skimmed over it pretty damn good, never knew what cypher did adding him gave me an insight. Might actually have to play test with this with a freind of mine to see how the rules go (love the word bearers warband idea) any rate love it and def gonna use it in friendly games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh yea who is that matt guy that every one bitches about and compares to c.s. goto? have only been playing 40k for two years sorry if i am kinda a newb.
Cheers man, glad you like it. Be sure to tell me how your game(s) go if you do, thanks man.
Mat Ward is a games/codex/army book writer for GW; he's well known (and hated by the community) for making rather OTT fluff and in-game rules, which comes across as very immature, although it must be said that his Codices are largely pretty balanced. Lets not start discussing Mr Ward though, eh?
ok fair enough, didnt realize he was that much of a pain in the ass. will do on the game though. cuase the word bearers are gonna kick some ass! oh ya~!
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/380984.page#3032107 Here's another one, dave. Sadly, I got ended by Draigo and my own inexperience with the GK codex.
Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying the codex, as the rhino's with Dirge Casters were pretty much the most effective thing in my entire list.
ZephyrRey wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/380984.page#3032107 Here's another one, dave. Sadly, I got ended by Draigo and my own inexperience with the GK codex.
Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying the codex, as the rhino's with Dirge Casters were pretty much the most effective thing in my entire list.
Another? Crackin' man. Cheers!
Seemed like a good battle again; I think that the Grey Knights were always going to be a problem with power weapons all round so I can't say I'm too surprised at the result; particularly with how quickly the pali's got into close combat.
Would you say the Dirge Casters were effective or too effective? Bearing in mind Purifiers are actually fearless...
alabamaheretic wrote:ok fair enough, didnt realize he was that much of a pain in the ass. will do on the game though. cuase the word bearers are gonna kick some ass! oh ya~!
It's OK, it's simply that discussions about him usually lead to aggression and the thread being locked...
----
Couple of changes I intend to make:
- Khorne Bezerkers & Noise Marines are to go up to 23pts. This is for several reasons:
Noise Marines got AP5.
Bring in line with the other cult troops, whilst not making them an auto-take over CSMs.
Khorne Bezerkers will get Counter-Charge
Noise Marines will get Acute Senses
I love the counter-charge on the Khorne Berzrkers.
I also have to say, it's good to hear that the cult units are getting a price increase, but I think there should be more incentive for taking plainclothes CSM. It's 4:00 in the morning over here in California right now, so I don't have any ideas (yet), but I'll think of something.
Alright, I've come back with a thing. Pinning. Either give basic CSM squads Pinning as a special rule, or give Heavy Bolters the Pinning USR. I've been involved in long and hard-fought threads about what to do with Heavy Bolters, since Autocannons and Assault Cannons are much more effective and worth the price, and the general consensus was PINNING.
It gives the Heavy Bolter a unique role that most weapons don't have. Since it CANNOT compete with more effective anti-infantry weapons despite that it's cheaper and usually free, most people will not take them in favor of the more expensive and effective weapons. Instead of boosting their power to compete with heavy weapons and heavy weapons squads, it's more effective to come up with a role that is usually not filled.
The issue I'm having is that I don't see much of a point to use any army other than the 'Big Four's' legions. They have access to troops that are (to quote MTG terminology) simply better than the competition. They need to stand out, which they don't. This is one point that I thought Dawn of War II (I know what that sounds like, just bear with me) game adressed very well. Heavy weapons squads had a greater fire output, jump squads could move quickly, and tactical squads were tough as all hell. My point is that they filled a very necessary role. They could be kitted out with any weapon type and still fulfill their role, which was to draw fire and hold positions.
I am by no means telling you to make CSM squads tougher, What I'm saying is they lack definition. I understand that the whole point is they can do anything, but in doing so they become less effective at everything.
Just my two cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm also trying to get a game together with my Eldar (Dark and otherwise) playing friend. I'll keep you posted. Which of the two armies I've made would you rather see, the Thousand Sons or World Eaters?
Heavy bolter in no way needs pinning, that would be silly. Plainclothers csm will be taken for the same reason that tacticals are, an that is that they need to bodies to score with on the field. If i hadn't been playing night lords I would have had many more csm with MoS instead of those raptors.
I hadn't played this codex, and my brother only picked the army because it's the hot new thing, not because he had actually read it. Him not knowing rules screwed me over a few times. 'oh yeah, draigo is t5' 'oh yeah, stormravens are assault vehicles' 'oh yeah, i have psybolt AND psyflame ammo'
jeeeeez....
I don't think the dirge casters were TOO effective, but they could maybe be 5 points more expensive. I mean, part of it was Shadowlord, an the other half was he cant roll morale for feth.
My argument is that if you need bodies on the field, this codex has better options, like the cult units. I don't see any reason to take basic CSM squads, because that's all they are. They are basic, and saying 'Pinning is silly' is missing the point. Like I've said before a number of times, the unit doesn't stand out.
Does anyone here play Magic (the trading card game)? In professional circuits, it's common knowledge that if you've got cards that don't work with the deck they're in, They aren't really doing anything. A deck that throws big things around should throw big things and not dick around countering things. A fast deck needs to be mach speed. The CSM squad offers nothing but a blob of meat to me, simple as that. Rubric Marines dish out more firepower, Khorne Berzerkers shred in CC, Plague Marines are tougher, and Noise Marines.... do whatever noise marines do. (I don't use Slaanesh. Too frail for my tastes in the daemonic.) Pinning is just a thing I came up with.
So that's my two cents again. I hope I made it more clear.
Perhaps its because there's a 0-1 limit on all warbands that wouldn't take a large amount of cult units? Because basic marines are cheaper and fulfill a larger variety of roles for their reduced cost? Because they aren't tied to a specific mark?
@iproxtaco: In that case, I'd rather just take the cult unit, which means I'd probably just go with the warband that's with one of the 'Big Four'. (Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Death Guard)
This is part of my intentions to make all Cult Troops 23pts; alongside being (typically) 0-1, the player wouldn't be discouraged from taking your 'average' CSM, who has many benefits in themselves. The standard CSM is almost on par with Grey Hunters who are widely regarded as arguably the best troop choice in the game. The Cult Units fill specialist roles and they pay for this; the standard CSM is much more versatile and much cheaper.
10 Chaos Space Marines, with a Rhino, 2 meltaguns and MoCU is 210pts. However, this is even less so for Black Legion & Iron Warriors, whilst the Word Bearers would get a Champion for free and greater use out of MoCU.
8 Khorne Bezerkers, with open-topped rhino, skull champion with powerfist tops 240pts. They're a much more specialist unit that whist very hard hitting would struggle to fill the roles that the standard CSM can; holding objectives, anti-tank, support etc.
I'd actually argue the unmarked Legions to be amongst the better warband choices due to how they can help trim those extra points elsewhere and round out the list, rather than reducing the overall number of bodies like masses of cult units can.
I'm really quite content with the existing CSM's due to the roles they fulfill within the army; be it support, capture and control, anti-tank, summoning, extra bodies, cheap... you name it.
Whilst obviously I've tried to make Cult Units better than their current incarnation and their CSM counterparts, I still think CSM's form the whole of most forces, as Taco' and Rey seem to also think. If I had Grey Hunters and Grey Knight Strike Squads in the same army, I'd most likely take the Grey Hunters in most cases.
Plague Marines are durable, Khorne Bezerkers rule in close combat, Thousand Sons are hard-hitting and tough and Noise Marines are excellent anti-infantry, but the Chaos Space Marines can do all of this (albeit to a lesser extent) for less.
---
So people are OK with the idea regarding increasing each to 23pts with their relative bonuses?
Regarding who I'd rather see out of TS and WE, I'd probably have to say World Eaters as Rey's intending to cover TS. Although I would wonder if your concerns about the Coven rings true...
ok did not mean to get a wart started about that guy. any way just read the grand dread rules pretty awesome. so what exactly does accute senses do does it give them auto night fight or something?
Perhaps it's just my playstyle. I'm actually okay wtih the CSMs, but they just aren't as interesting to me as the cultists, the same reason I couldn't ever really get into Vanilla Space Marines (or any other Space Marines for that matter).
Dave, I trust your judgement, and I'll leave it at that.
acute senses get to reroll night fighting, I believe.
Honestly I would take CSM over any other troop choice (save for cult troops) in the game, considering they have bolters AND two cc weps, and have such versatility in upgrades with the Marks of Chaos
Updates include:
- Khorne Bezerkers - Cost 23pts and gain Counter-attack.
- Noise Marines - Cost 23pts and gain Night Vision. Blast Masters cost 30pts.
- Chaos Champion removed.
- Warband specific rules (e.g. Dark Apostle, Shadowlord, Chaos Master etc.) available on any unnamed HQ choice (i.e. Sorcerers).
- I think that's about it.
If I may say, JD, I would reword all of your weapon upgrade options to like, 'replace boltgun with X' because as it is (an this is where i noticed it) raptors still get the two CC weapons AND the meltagun or whatever special weapon they take. Granted, that's one or two attacks a squad, but all the other codices do it, so it must be for a good reason, right?
Still loving the codex dave, hopign to play test it in the next few weeks.
One small quibble, more a personal gripe than anything else.
I'm tryign to write a nice fluffy IW list (much easier now that i can field bassies and an ACTUAL Warsmith BTW). It would be nice if there was an option for a Lord to have some sort of long range weapon.
My reasoning being that i see a Warsmith as someone who would be at the back directing the battle and taking shots with something nasty. For example. I played an apoc game and my "Warsmith" was a MoTF on a bike with a conversion beamer. Very fluffy as he dashed around fixing immobilised tanks and firing of S10 Ap1 small blastt shots from the Beamer. Great fun.
I have managed to point up a half-decent Warsmith who is nicely tough but he is just lacking the long range punch.
Maybe an option to let a Chaos Lord (or Termie Lord) carry a Warp Cannon or something? I woudl say make a long range option an add-on for Warsmith (example: Conversion Beamer/Warp Cannon/some new gun for 20 points) but then that's robbing other warbands of the option as well.
Just playing around: Iron Warriors Anti-Tank Spam list
HQ: Chaos Lord - Icon of the Iron Warriors, Warsmith, Chaos Armour, Daemonic Toughness, Daemon Weapon (a hammer, obviously)
Really? I thought that the sacred number was just the number of 'zerkers. Didn't realise it would include any IC's attached to the squad as well.
And i forgot to include my free skull champion in the list!
edit: just checked, the unit entry just says...
...if the squad numbers 8-models then a model may instead be upgraded to a Skull Champion for free.
That is when you pay the points for ther Berzerkers and the IC is then attached at deployment, which would suggest that any ICs added to the squad afterwards would not make a difference to the sacred number bonus.
Could we get a ruling on this Dave?
Also, quick question on Rubric Marines. The basic unit is 5 Rubrics but you then HAVE to spend 25 points getting the Asp. Sorcerer. Why not just make the basic unit 4 Rubrics + Sorcerer with a cost of 140. Then have the option to add 10 more rubrics at 23 points each. Then if the unit number exactly 9 they coudl get (for example) another psyker power for free rather than just reducing the cost of the scorerer.
Praxiss wrote:Still loving the codex dave, hopign to play test it in the next few weeks.
One small quibble, more a personal gripe than anything else.
I'm tryign to write a nice fluffy IW list (much easier now that i can field bassies and an ACTUAL Warsmith BTW). It would be nice if there was an option for a Lord to have some sort of long range weapon.
My reasoning being that i see a Warsmith as someone who would be at the back directing the battle and taking shots with something nasty. For example. I played an apoc game and my "Warsmith" was a MoTF on a bike with a conversion beamer. Very fluffy as he dashed around fixing immobilised tanks and firing of S10 Ap1 small blastt shots from the Beamer. Great fun.
I have managed to point up a half-decent Warsmith who is nicely tough but he is just lacking the long range punch.
Maybe an option to let a Chaos Lord (or Termie Lord) carry a Warp Cannon or something? I woudl say make a long range option an add-on for Warsmith (example: Conversion Beamer/Warp Cannon/some new gun for 20 points) but then that's robbing other warbands of the option as well.
Just playing around: Iron Warriors Anti-Tank Spam list
HQ: Chaos Lord - Icon of the Iron Warriors, Warsmith, Chaos Armour, Daemonic Toughness, Daemon Weapon (a hammer, obviously)
Cheers man, appreciate the compliment and I hope you do get round to (and enjoy) playtesting it! Solid list too.
Regarding the Heavy Weapon for the Lord; it's an idea and does have potential but personally I'm not sold on it tbh. I'd imagine a Warsmith (like any Chaos leader really) would be at the front; smashing the opponents face in with a power/chain fist and whacking great hammer; Storm of Iron (which I'm sure you've read) seems to support this IMHO. For ranged power a combi-weapon could fit the bill somewhat I guess. Also, as you said I'm reluctant to be "robbing other warbands of the option as well."
Apologies man, it's a nice idea and I really did consider it (e.g. Same gun options as termies), but I can't see it being added tbh.
Regarding the 'zerkers and their sacred number, I'll answer it with another (rhetorical) question. If a casualty was taken which reduced the squad to 7-men, would the skull champion then disappear? Basically, as it's before deployment that the sacred number has an effect, it won't change in-game, so yeah you can add as many characters as you want!
Personally, I feel reducing the cost of the Sorcerer is more balanced (and familiar) than adding another psychic power, whilst it also prevents the squad from being 230+pts at all times. Does that understanding make sense?
Cheers for the feedback Praxiss, much appreciated man.
I'm thinking about wrapping this up soon and having a final version of the PDF up; which would then go on other sites such as Scribd etc. by the way guys...
Troops - 15 Heretics - Lasguns, 2 Flamers, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 95pts
Heavy Support - Vindicator - Daemonic Possession - 130pts
Heavy Support - Defiler - 2 Reaper Autocannons - 155pts
Heavy Support - Defiler - 145pts
1750pts
Not perfect by any means, but the general idea is there, although it could be improved on.
You have 4 powerful close combat units advancing in open-topped rhinos, supported by a vindicator. These are all very in-your-face threats that should pressure an opponent.
During this the Defilers advance, draw fire and provide fire and the Heretics camp on an objective.
The Lord is good as he packs a reasonable punch in assault himself, but is able to grant a single unit of enhanced warriors a Veteran Skill each turn; potentially giving you Preferred Enemy on a Str5, T5 unit!
You mean the Fabius Bile who left his own Legion, doesn't worship Slaanesh and sells his services to other warbands but otherwise bears no affiliations, should specifically be part of an Emperors Children Warband?
For some reason after I download the pdf on the first post, all the unit descriptions and abilities and such (pretty much everything besides the statline) are blacked out. Any reason for this?
This codex alone is tempting me to begin a Chaos army. I've always avoided doing one after seeing the current bland codex, but the Thousand Sons are one of my favorite 40k factions. Good work so far!
alabamaheretic wrote:just reread the codex...i feel dumb, didnt he end up going to the black legion any way?
It's all right man. AFAIK he's just his usual mercenary self; probably lent his services to the Black Legion during the 13th Crusade I'd imagine...
He did apparently clone horus so he might not be all that popular with the Black Legion actually...
Hurricane wrote:For some reason after I download the pdf on the first post, all the unit descriptions and abilities and such (pretty much everything besides the statline) are blacked out. Any reason for this?
This codex alone is tempting me to begin a Chaos army. I've always avoided doing one after seeing the current bland codex, but the Thousand Sons are one of my favorite 40k factions. Good work so far!
Really? Weird... Does anyone else have this problem? If not, then I can email you a copy?
Wow, thanks man. Glad you like it; you'd need to make sure with your locals they don't mind you using a fandex (but AFAIK no-ones had any problems in that regard) before you start paying your hard-earned money on the models, but if the Codex can please you and allow you to collect this Chaos Army, then I'm happy to help man, really glad you like it. Tell me how it goes, eh?
I just tried downloading it on my laptop and it works fine there. Perhaps my reader is not up to date on my destktop or something like that. Anyway, I'm sure it would be fine with my local group. My only problem is choosing whether or not to begin a DE Wych cult or use this codex to create a Chaos list.
By the way, how many iterations of this codex are you planning on making before you officially complete it? On the other hand, do you intend on making this an ongoing project and never really "ending" it? As it looks now, I would easily believe this to be a codex comparable to the best 5th Edition codices as far as variety and power (DE and GK being my fav two)
Hmmm, well I guess it's nothing to worry about then. if the problem persists (elsewhere or for anyone else), then please tell me though!
Honestly, as much as I'd LOVE for this Codex to get extra coverage, I think it'd probably be best for you to go for the Wych cult as they have a fully working, fully legal Codex and great models, but that's just me. Go where your heart takes you (cheesy I know), but if that's to a CSM force then I won't complain!
Well, I'm hoping this will be pretty much the last iteration. I know of a couple of people on Dakka that are supposed to be/have using this Codex in games soon/already and will provide feedback on it, but I'm hoping to wrap this up pretty soon tbh. Any changes that occur between now and then will be fairly insignificant however (hopefully) so I wouldn't worry about things changing too much. But yes, as it stands its pretty much the finished article which should be on a similar power level to most 5th edition Codices as you noted, but soon I intend to wrap this up, where I'll publish this on Scribd too, create an article, probably send it to GW somehow and maybe hand it out to a few LGS...
GAH!!! Got my list wrong, i pointed up the lascannons in the havocs as 5 points as per the Warsmith rule, but that is only valid for CSM sqauds. Doh.
re: ranged weapon for the Warsmith. I can see your reasoning behind not making the option available. I guess i just see the Warsmith differently.
One option i did look at was pointing it up as a sorcerer. That way the warsmith gets a kick-ass weapon (Force weapon) and can also have a nice ranged weapon as well (DoomBolt for example).
You get the ranged option but you also take a slight hit on attacks and saves.
iproxtaco wrote:It's already in circulation among the community where I am. Still working on the BR, I'll have it up by Wednesday at the very latest.
Cracking. Cheers man, I look forward to seeing the reports and feedback! Thanks!
Keatonic wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Probably send it to GW
I'd be careful about that. I just have a bad feeling you'd be cease-and-desist'ed, most likely for the images.
I didn't end up playing my CSM that day, and instead played my new DE.
However, I absolutely love the codex and will try to play a game with it!
I can't imagine it'd be a problem; there are plenty of fan-stuff on the web, I've put the legal crap at the end and I'm not making money out of it.
Thanks though, I can't say I blame you for playing DE instead; I love everything about them except fluff and the models are beautiful, thanks though man.
Praxiss wrote:@ JustDave
GAH!!! Got my list wrong, i pointed up the lascannons in the havocs as 5 points as per the Warsmith rule, but that is only valid for CSM sqauds. Doh.
re: ranged weapon for the Warsmith. I can see your reasoning behind not making the option available. I guess i just see the Warsmith differently.
One option i did look at was pointing it up as a sorcerer. That way the warsmith gets a kick-ass weapon (Force weapon) and can also have a nice ranged weapon as well (DoomBolt for example).
You get the ranged option but you also take a slight hit on attacks and saves.
I thought there looked like there was too much there, I was gonna total the points myself but never got around to it!
Glad you understand man; but yeah, I too thought the Sorcerer could be a compromise. You could always go for a Prince instead and get the strength and the shooty; albeit with a bit of Daemonic mixed in...
Coz then you're giving one warband/legion/whatever a specific bonus which other ones wouldn't have. Could be contrued as an unfair advantage.
The codex is balanced fine, i'm just being picky. as i said, now that you can give Sorcerers the Icon of the Iron Warriors you can, in theory have a Sorcerer Warsmith.
Basically, Praxiss is on the money there; it'd imbalance the Legion options IMHO whilst it's also not really needed; I don't see any justification for it in fluff or gameplay and this Codex was intended to provide an up-to-date, characterful Chaos Space Marine army, not to provide for every whim and want tbh...
Just Dave wrote:Basically, Praxiss is on the money there; it'd imbalance the Legion options IMHO whilst it's also not really needed; I don't see any justification for it in fluff or gameplay and this Codex was intended to provide an up-to-date, characterful Chaos Space Marine army, not to provide for every whim and want tbh...
QFT.
Having a ranged Warsmith is just my personal thought. The fluff i have read does support chaos lords, as a general rule, tend to want to eb in the thick of it.
Here si what i woudl personally list for a "Fluffy" Warsmith (and by fluffy i mean the accepted fluff of charging in)
Chaos Lord
Icon of the iron Warriors
Warsmith
Combi-melta
Chaos Armour (for the 2+ armour save)
Daemonic Toughenss (FNP)
Power Maul / Daemon Weapon
Personal Icon (for calling in his Obliterator retinue)
Melta Bombs
This comes in at 175 pointswith the following stats:
WS 6
BS 5
S 4
T 4 (+ FNP)
W 3
I 5
A 4
Ld 10
Sv 2/5
Pretty good deal i think, consdiering the bonus the Maul can gvie you in CC.
if you want to get frisky..
Daemnoci Steed, bumps it up by 40 points but adds +1 S, +1 T and +1 A.
Not a bad idea Praxiss, but there is a problem in that you can't take Daemonic Toughness (read: bionics ) and Chaos Armour as they're both gifts; just go for Termie armour instead if I were you - very Iron Warriors esc too.
I've actually been debating taking a chaos gift with my Night Lords Lord, but just calling it something else, although it still feels wrong, you know?
But here is how I would run a Night Lords commander. (Maybe we should give an example of our preferred warband's preferred leader? seems like a decent idea to flesh out the warbands a tid)
Just Dave wrote:Not a bad idea Praxiss, but there is a problem in that you can't take Daemonic Toughness (read: bionics ) and Chaos Armour as they're both gifts; just go for Termie armour instead if I were you - very Iron Warriors esc too.
Sorry, i can't see where it says the Lord can't take gifts......
ZephyrRey wrote:I've actually been debating taking a chaos gift with my Night Lords Lord, but just calling it something else, although it still feels wrong, you know?
But here is how I would run a Night Lords commander. (Maybe we should give an example of our preferred warband's preferred leader? seems like a decent idea to flesh out the warbands a tid)
Well visage should merge well with Shadowlord too, which is of course a bonus!
My leader in my army list would actually be Lucius or a Prince probably!
Praxiss wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Not a bad idea Praxiss, but there is a problem in that you can't take Daemonic Toughness (read: bionics ) and Chaos Armour as they're both gifts; just go for Termie armour instead if I were you - very Iron Warriors esc too.
Sorry, i can't see where it says the Lord can't take gifts......
Well its listed under "may take on of the following Chaos Gifts", where both toughness and armour are listed, hence...
Here are my impressions, keeping in mind I don't have the codex handy at the moment, so I may get small details wrong.
I really like the idea of warband icons. I was wondering what would happen if my Shadow Lord turned into a spawn from Gift of the Gods, though. Would he still be THE SHADOW LORD?
Overall, I think the characters and HQ's are overpriced for what you get. Abbadon went up ten points and get 2 situational abilities. Let the Galaxy Burn only affects stuff really close to him, and the Terminator Spearhead thing is not all that useful, though really cool I think. It would be nice if Abby had an ability that affected everything on the table like Marneus Calgar or the newer SM characters, though I'm not entirely sure what it would be.
Kharn looks good, but at 180 damn he is expensive. And he doesn't hit on a 2+? Sweet Emperor on a stick! That's his best ability! At least he got eternal warrior back, but I don't know if the large price increase is warranted.
Lucius is even more expensive than Kharn? Yikes. He better be good. Well, he's pretty good. Eternal Warrior and always re-rolls his wounds are very helpful, as that was my main problem with him was when comparing him to Kharn. At 190, he seems very expensive though. Maybe drop him to 180 and put Kharn at 170?
Typhus, Ahriman, and the others look good to me. Ahriman lost the ability to spam Turn You Into a Spawn 3 times in a turn, but that's OK. Huron Blackhearts ability is very useful, I approve. The beast of annihilation demon prince seems very, very expensive. I like your possessed, but I don't know if I would use him, just because he's so points heavy for a DP.
Chaos Lords went up 10 points for no apparent reason. Sorceror's look good, but I take issue with certain psychic powers. Demon Princes are god awful expensive now that they are always T6. Wings for 45 points? I think 30 would be more appropriate. I see no reason to make MC's pay a premium for wings, since MC's are generally expensive to begin with.
And demon weapons ... yeah those are way to expensive. 45 and 50 points for a lord and DP? They still bite you in the butt, and this time you get no save for the wound. That means your demon weapon will take a wound off once per game on average. At least you still get to attack, but you lose all bonuses from the weapon. So I assume you just attack with a CC weapon? That definitely needs a points drop. They are overcosted in the current codex and overcosted in this one.
Lets see. Termies got better with Stubborn, which they need since they lost Fearless. Possessed got a LOT better. I like your ability table and the effect of marks on them. Dreadnoughts are still crazy but you at least specify an enemy unit under the Crazed result. And hey, there's a non-crazy Dred. Cool. Chosen are still awesome, and have even more skills to choose from.
Oh, moving Fabius to Elites is a good idea. He makes a pretty bad HQ in my opinion. Not much of a fighter. The enhanced warriors get +1 T. Sweet.
I kind of glanced over the Warcoven, so I will refrain from commenting on that.
Under troops we still have Cult units, CSM, and now heretics and operatives. It all looks pretty good. Noise marines all get sonic blasters now, which I agree with. The blast master may be 5 points over priced at 30 points. I'm not sure. Berzerkers now have counter attack (Like space wolves!). And yay there are cultists! And there are Better Cultists!
Under fast attack, bikes look pretty good. I laughed when I first read Hit and Run Over. Raptors are a big disappointment. There's just nothing chaos about them besides marks. No option for demonic visage or hit and run? They glorified assault marines, which I think is wrong.
Spawn looked really good until I realized two things. First, they are Mindless which is like Slow and Purposeful, except worse. Second, they are infantry instead of beasts. Really, why put such a slow unit in Fast Attack? It just doesn't make sense. Otherwise they have nice stats and the effects of the marks are good too.
Then in heavy, we have Havocs. They are basically just devastators with icons. An option for veteran skills would be nice, but people would probably scream OP at tank hunting Havocs (with autocannons of course). Oblits look pretty good. They got a price increase but got a nice ability too. I still miss the T5 Oblits myself. I hate losing them to lascannons and melta guns in one shot.
I really like the Land Raider Marauder, and the LR got back its machine spirit. Vindi and Pred are just copies of the loyalist versions with option for demonic possession, nothing to write home about. Um ... I think that's it for heavy. I may have missed something.
Then for demons. The lesser demons look pretty good. You managed to fit horrors, bloodletters, demonettes, and plaguebearers in one entry and did a decent job of it. They still need icons. Greater demons have to possess a champion or character still. That never made since to me fluff-wise, but oh well. My one big complaint here is that the Bloodletter and Lord of Change DON'T HAVE WINGS! Seriously.
That about wraps it up. No, wait, it doesn't. I just remembered there was a flier in the fast attack section. It looked good. The selection of bombs is nice. Hm, oh and I liked the Gift of Chaos table. Nice and random with a possibility of a big power boost, and only 5 points.
And two more things: Visions of Chaos and the new Demonic Visage. Visions of Chaos needs to be something that works all the time. Look at the other races psychic defenses. Psychic hoods, Runes of Warding, Shadow in the Warp, and ... that's about it. Oh yeah the Dark Eldar have a one shot thing that probably won't work because you have to fail a leadership test.
Anyway, the majority of psychic defense work all the time, without tests. Anything you give to Chaos ought to be like that. Most sorcerers can only use one power a turn, why bother using Visions of Chaos instead of something like Warptime or the new and improved Doombolt? The only time I see using Visions is if I'm running Ahriman or a Tzeentch Psyker and I have that extra psychic test to spare. Usually I don't. I'd rather use Warp Time plus a shooting attack I think.
And Demonic Visage only works if your opponent falls a leadership test. Which means it will almost never work. It's a dead ability.
Ok, I think that's all. I may have skipped some stuff entirely, but I covered most of what I wanted. Overall I like the codex. It just has some niggling bits I disagree with. If this were released as the next chaos codex right now, I would feel slightly disappointed. Mainly at what I think are unwarranted price increases on the characters. But I would be pretty happy with most of the other stuff.
Noisy_Marine wrote:I really like the idea of warband icons. I was wondering what would happen if my Shadow Lord turned into a spawn from Gift of the Gods, though. Would he still be THE SHADOW LORD?
Nope. He'd be a spawn without the Shadow Lord rule.
Thanks for the feedback Noisy, it's appreciated as I'm trying to make this as balanced and useful as possible. I'll go through your post and respond to points, explaining my reasoning behind some of then changes etc. Bear in mind that this is only my opinion (but obviously as ze creator it's the deciding opinion), but it should help you understand my reasoning and possibly change your mind on some things.
Overall, I think the characters and HQ's are overpriced for what you get. Abbadon went up ten points and get 2 situational abilities. Let the Galaxy Burn only affects stuff really close to him, and the Terminator Spearhead thing is not all that useful, though really cool I think. It would be nice if Abby had an ability that affected everything on the table like Marneus Calgar or the newer SM characters, though I'm not entirely sure what it would be.
I have been wondering about the cost of Abaddon to be honest, so I may take him back down to 275. However, he has gained some boosts: the ability to benefit leadership around him (which isn't particularly situational I'd argue) aswell as no longer requiring a Land Raider, his usual retinue (Termies) will no longer cause him to run away, he doesn't suffer a wound from his daemon weapon which also allows him to continue fighting with a lightning claw and he's gained an attack. The main problems seen with Abaddon were: A) his price (but that's not really going to change a significant amount), B) his delivery options which have now been improved and C) his reliability in close combat, which has also now been improved.
Thinking about it, I'll probably take him back down to 280/275pts. I'm reluctant to add him a Calgar or Chaos-wing like ability as I believe the Chaos HQ's shouldn't be too big a Force Multiplier to represent their selfish nature as well as the distinct lack of originality of making termies scoring.
Kharn looks good, but at 180 damn he is expensive. And he doesn't hit on a 2+? Sweet Emperor on a stick! That's his best ability! At least he got eternal warrior back, but I don't know if the large price increase is warranted.
He's only 15pts more expensive. For these 15pts over his previous status he gains Eternal Warrior, Re-roll to wound rolls of one and what is effectively saga of the warrior born. Albeit, he loses his 2+ hitting.
A standard lord is 100pts. Eternal Warrior (30pts), Saga of the Warrior Born (30pts), Unholy Might (10pts) and Plasma Pistol (15pts) puts him at 185pts, no? So in addition to these he gains a power weapon, meltabombs, personal icon re-roll to wound of 1's, furious charge, extra D6 armour penetration, Mark of Khorne, Immunity to Psychic Powers and Betrayer. Judging from this, I'd say he's a pretty damn good deal. The other problem facing special characters is the need to not make them supersede all Chaos Lords etc, in that instead of a Chaos Lord and player may always take Kharn/Lucius/whomever, which is obviously a problem I want to avoid.
Whilst, yes, losing 2+ hitting is a nerf, he gained the ability to dramatically increase his attacks number; easily capable of killing 4 Space Marines in one turn; in the following turn he'd then have a mighty 11 Str6, In6 attacks on the charge!
Lucius is even more expensive than Kharn? Yikes. He better be good. Well, he's pretty good. Eternal Warrior and always re-rolls his wounds are very helpful, as that was my main problem with him was when comparing him to Kharn. At 190, he seems very expensive though. Maybe drop him to 180 and put Kharn at 170?
To be fair, I've actually worried about Lucius being too good. He's got eternal warrior, WS7, permanent re-rolling to wound and a power weapon, permanent -1 to enemy attacks, initiative 7 and a Doom Siren. Furthermore, against characters or creatures he gets re-rolling to hits and a 4++!
Like Kharn: a Lord is 100pts. Eternal Warrior (30pts), Doom Siren (15pts), Power Weapon (15pts), Initiative 7 (2x MoS = 10pts). So for the extra 20pts he gains +1 WS, meltabombs, personal icon, Lash of Torment, re-rolling to-wound rolls and potential re-rolling to-hits and 4++. He's capable against elite units, characters, hordes and even monstrous creatures at a push. Under this, I'd say Lucius is pretty damn bad-ass. Maybe not quite 190pts, true, but definitely close. Maybe 185pts?
Typhus, Ahriman, and the others look good to me. Ahriman lost the ability to spam Turn You Into a Spawn 3 times in a turn, but that's OK. Huron Blackhearts ability is very useful, I approve. The beast of annihilation demon prince seems very, very expensive. I like your possessed, but I don't know if I would use him, just because he's so points heavy for a DP.
I too am worried about the price of the DP character, but it's difficult consider all his benefits such as fleet, 4++, additional attack, furious charge, Daemon Weapon (therefore 6+ D6 Str9 attacks on the (fleet) charge) and scoring possessed. I too worry about his points, but I'm finding him difficult to cost/balance...
Chaos Lords went up 10 points for no apparent reason. Sorceror's look good, but I take issue with certain psychic powers. Demon Princes are god awful expensive now that they are always T6. Wings for 45 points? I think 30 would be more appropriate. I see no reason to make MC's pay a premium for wings, since MC's are generally expensive to begin with.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Chaos Lords currently 100pts (GW and here), hence they've not changed? I've not got my Codex to hand either (may have lost it actually!), but I'm pretty sure they're the same. Even so, they have gained an attack.
The Daemon Princes are kind of controversial I know, but again, I'll explain my reasoning. Currently, Daemon Princes are pretty much must-have's with CSM's, leaving Lords and Sorcerers barely considered. At 110pts, they also gain A LOT of benefits over the lord for only 10pts. Now, they are 25pts more expensive than their current version. For this they effectively gain MoN (20pts); meaning their cost has (in a way) only gone up 5pts. Wings, were similarly, a must-take and are MUCH cheaper than similar options for other DP's such as Tyrants and Dreadknights.
Let me put it like this, which is how IN MY OPINION it works out:
- Are Daemon Princes still competitive/usable? Yes.
- Are Daemon Princes still a must-have? No.
- Are wings still a viable option? Yes.
- Are wings a must have? No.
- Does my Daemon Prince still die to small armies fire? Not bloody likely.
- Can I give my Daemon Prince grenades (equivalent), a 2+ save against Missile Launchers, a 4++, Feel No Pain, greater close combat potential? Yes.
As I said, that's IMHO what it is like with the DP now; they're an investment rather than auto-take. They are still worth taking and provide a real punch, but they aren't the must-take they were and now they have options too. Of course, correct me if I'm wrong to believe this.
And demon weapons ... yeah those are way to expensive. 45 and 50 points for a lord and DP? They still bite you in the butt, and this time you get no save for the wound. That means your demon weapon will take a wound off once per game on average. At least you still get to attack, but you lose all bonuses from the weapon. So I assume you just attack with a CC weapon? That definitely needs a points drop. They are overcosted in the current codex and overcosted in this one.
Daemon Weapons are now better and only 5pts more expensive IIRC. Yes, you lose bonuses (although Prince still ignore saves), but they also add some really lethal potential.
For 30pts, you can get a relic blade (considered a good weapon). For these 15pts extra the player gains +D6 attacks but also the ability to hurt themselves. Other Daemon Weapons can do nasty things too, such as MoK being just as deadly, but less self-harmy... Admittedly, I'll take them down to 40pts as I agree that 15pts is a bit much for the attacks but also self-harm.
For Daemon Princes, this is a very tricky one to balance. Whilst they don't gain the power weapon, they benefit A LOT from the additional attacks and abilities, hence their cost. Originally I had them at the same price, but after feedback from a reliable Dakka user, I upped the cost.
Lets see. Termies got better with Stubborn, which they need since they lost Fearless. Possessed got a LOT better. I like your ability table and the effect of marks on them. Dreadnoughts are still crazy but you at least specify an enemy unit under the Crazed result. And hey, there's a non-crazy Dred. Cool. Chosen are still awesome, and have even more skills to choose from.
Oh, moving Fabius to Elites is a good idea. He makes a pretty bad HQ in my opinion. Not much of a fighter. The enhanced warriors get +1 T. Sweet.
I kind of glanced over the Warcoven, so I will refrain from commenting on that.
Under troops we still have Cult units, CSM, and now heretics and operatives. It all looks pretty good. Noise marines all get sonic blasters now, which I agree with. The blast master may be 5 points over priced at 30 points. I'm not sure. Berzerkers now have counter attack (Like space wolves!). And yay there are cultists! And there are Better Cultists!
Cracking.
Noise Marines' Sonic Blaster is also better and cheaper I may add, whilst Zerkers are more expensive but better.
I originally had the Blast Master at 25pts, but with up to 6, Str6 shots at AP4 and pinning; it's a very powerful weapon and IIRC superior to an autocannon against tanks. I MAY take it bake down to 25pts, I'm not sure yet.
Under fast attack, bikes look pretty good. I laughed when I first read Hit and Run Over. Raptors are a big disappointment. There's just nothing chaos about them besides marks. No option for demonic visage or hit and run? They glorified assault marines, which I think is wrong.
Glad someone else likes hit and run over!
For the Raptors, they are 2pts cheaper each and can now equip power weapons on the standard guy, whilst Marks are freakin' nasty. For 200pts you get 40 attacks on the charge, which can then be increased to add power weapons and a champion.
I admit, they're not particularly chaos-y, but someone play-tested with H&R and found it too good, whilst I don't really see the need for H&R or visage personally. I think they're fine game-wise, but I may consider visage. Then again; this then increases their cost!
Spawn looked really good until I realized two things. First, they are Mindless which is like Slow and Purposeful, except worse. Second, they are infantry instead of beasts. Really, why put such a slow unit in Fast Attack? It just doesn't make sense. Otherwise they have nice stats and the effects of the marks are good too.
To be fair, they're fleet too, but yes, they're not that fast. Then again, they have a 1/12 chance of mindless taking effect and being cheaper with better stats, as well as more able to get close to the enemy, I think they're not that bad. I think Beasts is too much, particularly with how they can emerge from power of chaos. Sorcerers can also teleport them up the field too.
Then in heavy, we have Havocs. They are basically just devastators with icons. An option for veteran skills would be nice, but people would probably scream OP at tank hunting Havocs (with autocannons of course). Oblits look pretty good. They got a price increase but got a nice ability too. I still miss the T5 Oblits myself. I hate losing them to lascannons and melta guns in one shot.
I really like the Land Raider Marauder, and the LR got back its machine spirit. Vindi and Pred are just copies of the loyalist versions with option for demonic possession, nothing to write home about. Um ... I think that's it for heavy. I may have missed something.
Predators and Defilers have more options also. I agree that Veteran skills would be too good with Havocs though.
Then for demons. The lesser demons look pretty good. You managed to fit horrors, bloodletters, demonettes, and plaguebearers in one entry and did a decent job of it. They still need icons. Greater demons have to possess a champion or character still. That never made since to me fluff-wise, but oh well. My one big complaint here is that the Bloodletter and Lord of Change DON'T HAVE WINGS! Seriously.
Yep, very seriously.
What are the balancing factors for existing C:CSM greater Daemons: Lack of mobility, requires a sacrifice.
What are the balancing factors for existing C:CD Greater Daemons: expensive, must weather a turn of shooting.
To represent their wings I have granted fleet to these two, but with their own stats and method of arrival I believe wings would be too much. They can arrive very close to the enemy, without being shot and able to charge. If they had wings, then they would also have mobility which would make them far too good IMHO. These are some of the problems with potentially a straight port from the Daemons Codex.
That about wraps it up. No, wait, it doesn't. I just remembered there was a flier in the fast attack section. It looked good. The selection of bombs is nice. Hm, oh and I liked the Gift of Chaos table. Nice and random with a possibility of a big power boost, and only 5 points.
Glad someone else likes Gift of the Gods; probably my favourite item.
And two more things: Visions of Chaos and the new Demonic Visage. Visions of Chaos needs to be something that works all the time. Look at the other races psychic defenses. Psychic hoods, Runes of Warding, Shadow in the Warp, and ... that's about it. Oh yeah the Dark Eldar have a one shot thing that probably won't work because you have to fail a leadership test.
Anyway, the majority of psychic defense work all the time, without tests. Anything you give to Chaos ought to be like that. Most sorcerers can only use one power a turn, why bother using Visions of Chaos instead of something like Warptime or the new and improved Doombolt? The only time I see using Visions is if I'm running Ahriman or a Tzeentch Psyker and I have that extra psychic test to spare. Usually I don't. I'd rather use Warp Time plus a shooting attack I think.
I can understand your qualm regarding Visions and having it as a constant ability is an idea if potentially too powerful. Sorcerers now have a Warp Mask which causes a perils attack on any enemy failed leadership test within 24" - a method of (aggressive) psychic defence. Combine this with Visions of Chaos and it's pretty damn deadly IMHO. I will definitely think about visions however. Also, Familiars can provide extra ability to cast - akin to Ahriman or MoT.
And Demonic Visage only works if your opponent falls a leadership test. Which means it will almost never work. It's a dead ability.
Originally Visage caused WS1 on a failed Ld test, but that was perceived as too powerful, hence it's current state. Nonetheless, whilst many units are Fearless these days, I wouldn't say it was quite 'dead'; it also works very well with a Shadow Lord. I may change it to -1 Ld for taking the test however.
Ok, I think that's all. I may have skipped some stuff entirely, but I covered most of what I wanted. Overall I like the codex. It just has some niggling bits I disagree with. If this were released as the next chaos codex right now, I would feel slightly disappointed. Mainly at what I think are unwarranted price increases on the characters. But I would be pretty happy with most of the other stuff.
Honestly, I'm amazed that you'd feel slightly disappointed considering it's changes to the existing 'dex, maybe that's because I'm not too concerned about the characters pricing. Nonetheless, thank you for the feedback; it's very helpful and something for me to think about and I appreciate you also highlighting positives and providing reasoning.
A standard lord is 90 points. But I see you gave lords 4 attacks base, so that's where the extra 10 points come from. I think you mean for Kharn to have a chain axe? The codex does not specify that Gorechild is a chain axe, but you mentioned him re-rolling 1's to wound.
I noticed Sorcerers don't come with invuls. GASP. But they do come with warp masks. I see what you did there.
I finally looked at the Thousand Son Coven. Looks pretty good. With the free tomes they have the potential to be very devastating. Though I think I would just give them all a psychic power and go for suppa psychic overload. Then I double checked Rubric marines and WHOA they don't have invuls either. Looks like you want them to be a ranged unit definitely. The invuls they have now give them some ability to do well in close combat, or at least not die so fast. And the Aspiring Sorcerers don't have force weapons? Understandable, though one time I killed the Avatar with an Aspiring Sorc's force weapon ... good times.
Another thing about the warcoven, and units of psykers in general. Are we supposed to roll all the psychic tests individually? That sounds time consuming, but it would be a lot of Warpflare shots if all 9 sorcerers used Warpflare in the shooting phase.
I didn't notice the raptors ability to take extra power weapons before. That's pretty nice for an assault unit.
So for spawn, they are mindless, but they still assault 6" without rolling right? Do you intend for them to have fleet as well? You mentioned they fleet in your post.
I gotta say I like the warp cannon. It's nice and powerful with the potential to kill a land raider.
Back to demons, do you think demonettes rending against vehicles is too powerful? Also noticed the lack of power weapons on blood letters.
I think you could lower the point costs of horrors and plague bearers. Plaguebearers lose the ability to wound on a 4+ and have lower toughness. And horrors have a worse save and a worse gun then in the demon codex . Though I think they are toughness 3 in the demon codex.
Back to GD's, I still feel underwhelmed by the Blood Thirster, compared to the others with their free psychic powers and no Perils. Maybe the Thirster could get armor? Or +1 strength?
Oh, and I like the options for the defiler. Especially the mark of Khorne version. (Go World Eaters!)
I read the part about the vindicare's special bullet and am still confused. Do you mean a vindicare can strip the mark of Tzeentch off of a model?
Correct me if im wrong but do not the summoned deamons from codex csm still have to weather a turn of shooting?
So this brings thier "balancing" factors to....
Lack of Mobility
Must weather a turn of shooting
and for the greater Daemons requires a sacrifice
I think one of these should be eliminateed because as you have so eloqently put the C CD Daemons only have two balancing factors. As Daemons are in the current codex i wouldnt take them, as they are in this one i would shy away even more well maybe not the lesser Daemons but definitly the greater, I value my Asp. Champs to much
EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way! If MoN changes the base toguhness to 5 instead of 4(5), then that'll make Nurgle Lords as durable as they SHOULD be-hell, a Nurgle Lord on a bike, T5(6)... <3
Also, you have the Hell talon in there; why not the Hell Blade? Make it 1-3 or 1-5, maybe slightly reduced cost (they've been around for a while now), new weapon options (replace the two twin-linked autocannons wiht a TL multi-melta, TL lascannon, TL plasmacannon, a pair of hurricane bolters, etc.)? The Spehss Muhreens get Stormravens, the Dark Eldar get the Razorwing, the Imperial Guard ge tthe Valkyrie...give Chaos it's own fighter, the one that was designed to hunt down other aircraft! The Locust (a fan-made vehicle) would be interesting as well, has three underslung lascannons.
Kepora wrote:EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way! If MoN changes the base toguhness to 5 instead of 4(5), then that'll make Nurgle Lords as durable as they SHOULD be-hell, a Nurgle Lord on a bike, T5(6)... <3
I was a little surprised so see that Typhus and Ahriman don't have Eternal Warrior. They've been around a LONG time and seen their far share of battles.
Kepora wrote:EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way! If MoN changes the base toguhness to 5 instead of 4(5), then that'll make Nurgle Lords as durable as they SHOULD be-hell, a Nurgle Lord on a bike, T5(6)... <3
I was a little surprised so see that Typhus and Ahriman don't have Eternal Warrior. They've been around a LONG time and seen their far share of battles.
DEFINITELY Ahriman. Also, I edited in suggestions for the Hell Blade seeing as the Talon's already in, and it wouldn't be broken seeing as other races have fliers now.
So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(
ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(
I'm interested in this. I want to see how they do without invul saves.
ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(
Haven't you guys ever heard of Plasma Rifles? or Krak Missiles? Or better yet, Demolisher/Battle Cannons? That's what the invul was for, because everyone nowadays has fucktons of those.
ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(
Haven't you guys ever heard of Plasma Rifles? or Krak Missiles? Or better yet, Demolisher/Battle Cannons? That's what the invul was for, because everyone nowadays has fucktons of those.
Goodluck with that in a necron or a daemon's codex. Not everyone has that luxury, so don't need to be a prick about it. When you have one monolith or little to no shooting at all, it kinda sucks.
Noisy_Marine wrote:A standard lord is 90 points. But I see you gave lords 4 attacks base, so that's where the extra 10 points come from. I think you mean for Kharn to have a chain axe? The codex does not specify that Gorechild is a chain axe, but you mentioned him re-rolling 1's to wound.
Yeah, well they have the exact same stats as a Wolf Lord but with Fearless & 5++ too.
Regarding the Chain Axe/Gorechild, I realised when responding to you that being a chain-axe, Gorechild should re-roll 1's to wound as well, which you'll find in the latest version in the OP as well as slightly edited points cost on Abby and Lucius, as per your feedback.
I finally looked at the Thousand Son Coven. Looks pretty good. With the free tomes they have the potential to be very devastating. Though I think I would just give them all a psychic power and go for suppa psychic overload. Then I double checked Rubric marines and WHOA they don't have invuls either. Looks like you want them to be a ranged unit definitely. The invuls they have now give them some ability to do well in close combat, or at least not die so fast. And the Aspiring Sorcerers don't have force weapons? Understandable, though one time I killed the Avatar with an Aspiring Sorc's force weapon ... good times.
Yeah, I think the Coven can be very hard hitting, but not cheap or particularly tough and prone to killing itself, which makes powers & tomes or just powers a difficult decision. However, with his tomes Ahriman can kick some ass which he should at >200pts.
Regarding the Rubric Marines; I (and many others) believed that a 5++ gave them very little benefit in close combat; with 1 attack they aren't going to do much damage in return whilst a 5++ only benefits them slightly against power weapons however they'd die to any elite unit in CC.
Regarding the Force Weapon; I decided to make it an optional extra and the sorcerer cheaper; you can still insta-kill an Avatar on a rare occasion and for less pts than before.
Another thing about the warcoven, and units of psykers in general. Are we supposed to roll all the psychic tests individually? That sounds time consuming, but it would be a lot of Warpflare shots if all 9 sorcerers used Warpflare in the shooting phase.
The rule in their entry states that they cast it individually, but at the same target. Regarding other units of psykers, I don't know. No others exist in this 'dex at-least...
I gotta say I like the warp cannon. It's nice and powerful with the potential to kill a land raider.
Cheers, I'm a fan too, it's kind of a cross between a psycannon and assault cannon I find. Very hard hitting, but unreliable.
Back to demons, do you think demonettes rending against vehicles is too powerful? Also noticed the lack of power weapons on blood letters.
Yeah, I believed both of those would be too powerful, particularly (with the latter especially) with the summoning rules delivering them straight into CC.
For 5pts you still get:
A) Fleet, Rending vs. Infantry & +1 initiative
B) +1WS, +1 Attack & Furious Charge.
Both of which I think are pretty good deals.
I think you could lower the point costs of horrors and plague bearers. Plaguebearers lose the ability to wound on a 4+ and have lower toughness. And horrors have a worse save and a worse gun then in the demon codex . Though I think they are toughness 3 in the demon codex.
Remember they gain the benefits of the marks too, so they have the same toughness and save as the Daemons Codex respectively. Does that make it sound better to you?
Back to GD's, I still feel underwhelmed by the Blood Thirster, compared to the others with their free psychic powers and no Perils. Maybe the Thirster could get armor? Or +1 strength?
Tbh, I wasn't sure about the bloodthirster either. However, I don't think armour would suit him whilst +1 strength could potentially make him tougher than the Daemon Codex version? I have considered preferred enemy or just 35pts?
Oh, and I like the options for the defiler. Especially the mark of Khorne version. (Go World Eaters!)
Good good! And to think, you struck me as a Slaanesh man... I assume if you haven't commented further on your previous points that you've understood my reasoning/decision making?
I read the part about the vindicare's special bullet and am still confused. Do you mean a vindicare can strip the mark of Tzeentch off of a model?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Vindicare can remove invulnerable saves caused by a piece of wargear. Hence, the MoT doesn't count as being wargear and therefore cannot be removed, no?
Kepora wrote:EW for Typhus, please? You mean to tell me that some no-name Lone Wolf who WANTS to die cna have Eternal Warrior but the damn Herald of Nurgle can still be insta-killed?! But yeah, making him straight T5 goes a long way!
The Lone Wolf has it for game-balance reasons; it'd be a useless choice if it could be insta-killed.
With a base toughness of 5, as you mentioned, Typhus cannot only be insta-killed by very few weapons in the game. This, therefore contributes to less of a need for EW.
I get the impression that much of the reasoning for wanting EW is how long him & Ahriman has been around? Therefore, whether intentionally or not Kenshin has somewhat answered this with his comment of "It seems that almost all the old time chaos SC should have EW!". I don't want to give EW to every character in the Codex and by the reasoning of "They've been around a LONG time" Fabius and Cypher should surely have it too. My reasoning is, none of these other characters need or and don't warrant it as much. Both Kharn and Lucius have pretty much literally died at least once each, furthermore, these are both very in-your-face characters who need it more than say Ahriman would (who should really be kept out of most EW-warranting situations).
I am definitely not adding EW to Ahriman, Cyphus and Fabius at the very least for these reasons.
Also, you have the Hell talon in there; why not the Hell Blade? Make it 1-3 or 1-5, maybe slightly reduced cost (they've been around for a while now), new weapon options (replace the two twin-linked autocannons wiht a TL multi-melta, TL lascannon, TL plasmacannon, a pair of hurricane bolters, etc.)? The Spehss Muhreens get Stormravens, the Dark Eldar get the Razorwing, the Imperial Guard ge tthe Valkyrie...give Chaos it's own fighter, the one that was designed to hunt down other aircraft! The Locust (a fan-made vehicle) would be interesting as well, has three underslung lascannons.
Multiple reasons for this too:
- The Hell Blade is used primarily for intercepting other aircraft AFAIK; whereas 40K is a game of typically ground targets; hence the bomber.
- The Hell Blade wouldn't really add anything new IMHO; fitting into the very small gap of difference between a Pred's and Hell Talon's roles.
ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(
Cracking! I look forward to hearing more about it man. They are a unit which I'm interested in finding out how they've done. Even moreso as you've got a typically CC list! I have also been told about a foot-slog Death Guard list taken to a small tournament too and I'll ask the person about telling others of the results...
Thanks for all feedback as ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZephyrRey wrote:
Kepora wrote:
ZephyrRey wrote:So I just played a couple games against my friends thousand sons list (as promised) and will be getting the reports up here sometime in the next few days. Prewarning; I hate their stupid little reroll shooting saves thing :(
Haven't you guys ever heard of Plasma Rifles? or Krak Missiles? Or better yet, Demolisher/Battle Cannons? That's what the invul was for, because everyone nowadays has fucktons of those.
Goodluck with that in a necron or a daemon's codex. Not everyone has that luxury, so don't need to be a prick about it. When you have one monolith or little to no shooting at all, it kinda sucks.
That and the aforementioned weapons may be directed at other targets such as tanks/princes/termies surely?
Well, I'll write up the batreps after my shift volunteering, but the first one was pretty much like this: (crons vs ksons) 500 points of mine dies first turn to a mishap. woo. Then i wreck rhinos super easy, and then struggle to kill contents.
Daemons was pretty much a scrim for troops. We actually had a problem with Gift of the Gods in that game:
It states the guy turns into a psyker, who can use one psychic power a turn. Does he have all of the psychic powers? That's how we played it, but is that how you intended it?
Well, I disagree with you on the Hell Blades; they fulfill a similar role as a Predator, yes, but they fulfill a totally different army slot-which makes a HUGE difference in armies like Iron Warriors (yes, my preferred army ). And yes, they hunt down fighters-which the Valkyrie and the Eldar vehicles the DE oens are based on were before THEY were made into codex units, the Storm Raven is essentially a Space Marine fighter, and on top of that the Hell Talon has little to no AA capability, being an almost purely dedicated bomber-whereas Hell Blade(s) hunt down enemy aircraft, as well as tanks and infantry foolish enoguh to get out of cover for long enough Plus is just doesn't make much sense to have the bomber wihtout it's escorts (which are actually affordable to most 40k players! )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: 15-man squad caps? Why not even it out at 20?
some small things i would feel op or underwhelming (im a 1K sons player so only commenting on these):
No psychic hood, sorry but this makes the codex uncompetive for anyone using psychic powers.
Warpmask is underwhelming, i would consider following:
Ldship test failed, psychic attack, further more, within 12" of the bearer, psykers suffer -2ldshp on their test, and within 24 -1, that would at least give you an equal edge against the abundance of hoods and rune weapons....
Obliterators are to powerfull: taking 2 TL plasmaguns will murder anything within 12 inch, with a squad of 3 that would be 12 plasmashots...
I do like however what you did with the psychic powers, neat.
1k sons i still think that they are crap with a big C, they are not worth 23 points under this rules, heck i prefer the old ones... if you leave them at this point lvl let them take special weapons...
the sorcerer however is correctly costed, gift of the gods...wtf roll of a 5 he becomes a sorcerer??? you made exception for khorne, there should be one for him to
warcoven is wellthought,fluffy and fun.
Deamons, why not simply use horrors,flamers,screamers and lord of change if your leader is a Mark of Tzeentch dude...
So maybe some harsh comments, but i still feel 1K sons are severely underwhelming to use.
ZephyrRey wrote:Well, I'll write up the batreps after my shift volunteering, but the first one was pretty much like this: (crons vs ksons) 500 points of mine dies first turn to a mishap. woo. Then i wreck rhinos super easy, and then struggle to kill contents.
Daemons was pretty much a scrim for troops. We actually had a problem with Gift of the Gods in that game:
It states the guy turns into a psyker, who can use one psychic power a turn. Does he have all of the psychic powers? That's how we played it, but is that how you intended it?
Cracking. Cheers man! Love that you're still doing the reports. Honestly however, I'm not too sure how much I can gather from the Necron bat-rep due to Necrons being such a weak army (although you & your opponent did agree on some improvements which was nice to see) and you loosing 500pts in the 1st turn! However, it seemed like a pretty good game and I don't know about you but it seemed fairly balanced to me? Look forward to the Daemons one too man! Thanks again Rey, really appreciate the feedback man.
Regarding the Psyker/GotG, I'll edit that in the 'dex, but my intentions would be for him to select a single PP...
Kepora wrote:Well, I disagree with you on the Hell Blades; they fulfill a similar role as a Predator, yes, but they fulfill a totally different army slot-which makes a HUGE difference in armies like Iron Warriors (yes, my preferred army ). And yes, they hunt down fighters-which the Valkyrie and the Eldar vehicles the DE oens are based on were before THEY were made into codex units, the Storm Raven is essentially a Space Marine fighter, and on top of that the Hell Talon has little to no AA capability, being an almost purely dedicated bomber-whereas Hell Blade(s) hunt down enemy aircraft, as well as tanks and infantry foolish enoguh to get out of cover for long enough Plus is just doesn't make much sense to have the bomber wihtout it's escorts (which are actually affordable to most 40k players! )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: 15-man squad caps? Why not even it out at 20?
15-man fits perfectly inside the Marauder, whilst is a more reasonable squad size considering I can't imagine CSM's running around in overly large squads of guys when 2 separate squads is more effective. Finally, I've never heard of anyone using 20-man squads.
Yes, but the Hell-talons fulfil a similar role also and would be in the same slot as Hell Blades; which are used for incepting aircraft. Less than half the codices include fliers and the game itself focuses on ground-troops, which defeats the by-far main role of the Hell Blade. The only 'fighter' in any of the existing 40K codices is the Razorwing; Stormravens are primarly transports, whilst the Voidraven is a bomber.
Honestly, I currently have no intention to include a Hell-blade, I don't feel it's needed gameplay-wise or fluff-wise IMHO.
Valek wrote:Hey, fine piece of work you made there mate:
Thanks man.
No psychic hood, sorry but this makes the codex uncompetive for anyone using psychic powers.
Warpmask is underwhelming, i would consider following:
Ldship test failed, psychic attack, further more, within 12" of the bearer, psykers suffer -2ldshp on their test, and within 24 -1, that would at least give you an equal edge against the abundance of hoods and rune weapons....
That's a far point man; I'll look into making the Warpmask better; although the -1 Ld thing could be too good combined with things such as Shadow Lord and Visions of Chaos, I may increase the range or also grant it a 5+ nullification on top of the existing effect...
Obliterators are to powerfull: taking 2 TL plasmaguns will murder anything within 12 inch, with a squad of 3 that would be 12 plasmashots...
That may be true, although this would leave the Oblits vulnerable as they'd be within 12" (likely through deepstrike), without a CCW and they're no tougher than they currently are but are more expensive. At 240pts I don't think 12 plasma shots is unreasonable personally?
I do like however what you did with the psychic powers, neat.
Cheers.
1k sons i still think that they are crap with a big C, they are not worth 23 points under this rules, heck i prefer the old ones... if you leave them at this point lvl let them take special weapons...
the sorcerer however is correctly costed, gift of the gods...wtf roll of a 5 he becomes a sorcerer??? you made exception for khorne, there should be one for him to
I'm surprised by this; the 5++ is very situational whilst the re-roll 3+ is very effective against small arms, which they're supposed to be very durable against in the fluff. They're now relentless too, meaning they have better range, they have grenades and their sorcerer is cheaper and better. I admit, I too have been wondering of late if they're worth 23pts, I may re-add their 5++ (but not re-rollable) on top of their current rules though.
Regarding the GotG; I'm now about to edit that entry to clarify ZephyrRey's earlier comments, but this would give him an additional power and cast 2-per-turn.
warcoven is wellthought,fluffy and fun.
Cracking. Cheers.
Deamons, why not simply use horrors,flamers,screamers and lord of change if your leader is a Mark of Tzeentch dude...
I don't understand this? If you're wondering why I don't simply include the entries from C then there's been lots of discussion of this in the past, but my viewpoint has always been (and others appear to agree) that this would simply be too powerful.
So maybe some harsh comments, but i still feel 1K sons are severely underwhelming to use.
It's all-right, you included some positive feedback too which makes me more willing to listen to your opinion!
I would not search that far, take 1K sons as they are now in chaos codex, add grenades and make sorcerer cost 15 points extra, 10 points for upgrade powerw to forcew,
1 power, and may cast two powers, autopass ldshp due to tzeentch. that is perfect and not overpowered.
Even if he would come in on his own and only makes entrance through deepstrike in turn 2 he would not be overpowered, ofc again a 0-1 choice
Additionally i would consider psychic hood for sorcerer lords, and surely for Ahriman, the guy was the chieflibrarian, it's not that he threw it away no?
On the deamon thing, i feel that not having your deamons is unfluffy and crappy, i do not see a lord of change would be op considering he even cost 35 points min more as you need to summon him out of a champ. Horrors are fine as are flamers and screamers, you could even limit packs of flamers and screamers to 0-1.
The moment he starts adding real daemons into this codex is the moment that it is no longer a fandex for codex Chaos Space MARINES and starts being a fandex for Forces of Chaos. This was clearly not his intention, and so pushing that issue is just, in my view, imbecilic. It is akin to saying that the current daemons codex is underpowered and unfluffy because you can't take heretics or marines with them; it isn't what the codex is for.
And Dave, no problems on the battle reports, when I play a game, it makes it take all of five minutes longer at worst to write down the occurrences, and then in my boring spare time I can write them up. So you can probably expect more (before I go to back to college, that is)
They get 4 attacks each on the charge (5 for the champ). Against a T3 opponent, they will wound on 2s and reroll 1's thanks to their Chain Axes...
Really? Chain axes can't just go back to being a CCW? How are they so different from a chain sword that they deserve a special rule? I'd think getting counter attack (and thus 4 attacks / model when RECEIVING a charge!) would be enough...
Not to mention the Blade could be given some new weapon options, and the fact the Hell Talon is BIG.
....and I scored a pair of HBs cheap that're just collecting dust XD
Fair enough man, although I can't imagine anyone buying either a Hell Blade or Talon just to use in a fandex! Either way, you're welcome to use counts-as! If you want, I can make you rules for a Hell-blade to use yourself, but sorry they won't be included in this 'dex...
Valek wrote:I would not search that far, take 1K sons as they are now in chaos codex, add grenades and make sorcerer cost 15 points extra, 10 points for upgrade powerw to forcew,
1 power, and may cast two powers, autopass ldshp due to tzeentch. that is perfect and not overpowered.
Even if he would come in on his own and only makes entrance through deepstrike in turn 2 he would not be overpowered, ofc again a 0-1 choice
IMHO that simply wouldn't work: in their current Codex they are considered a very weak choice; they are significantly more expensive than standard Marines but die just as fast to small arms and are much slower. Whereas the fluff suggests they are MORE resilient to small arms than anything else. I REALLY believe that adding grenades would not make them worth taking at all.
With re-rolling armour saves, they are more resilient against small arms but are no tougher in close combat or against heavy weaponry, as the fluff would suggest. This also means they have a definable weakness in game-terms.
Additionally i would consider psychic hood for sorcerer lords, and surely for Ahriman, the guy was the chieflibrarian, it's not that he threw it away no?
No, it's that he never had it I'd imagine. Librarians were outlawed during the Heresy, so they wouldn't be making specialist equipment for them surely. Also, they were significantly less aware of the dangers of the warp then. Similarly, I'd prefer something a bit more original than a simple copy & paste.
On the deamon thing, i feel that not having your deamons is unfluffy and crappy, i do not see a lord of change would be op considering he even cost 35 points min more as you need to summon him out of a champ. Horrors are fine as are flamers and screamers, you could even limit packs of flamers and screamers to 0-1.
I've commented on this several times, so I will answer this suggestion with a couple of questions. By answering these questions - or simply looking at the past discussion in this thread - you should have your answer, regarding the main thing preventing them from being included: game balance.
- What are the main (2) balancing factors for units in the Daemons Codex, preventing them from being too good?
- What is the main balancing factor for the current Codices summoned Greater Daemon and the same reason that the winged prince is a superior option?
- What would it be like if Codex: Daemons Bloodletters could be summoned using the summoning rules and their Chaos Daemons profile?
Then, as Rey has pointed out there are other factors to consider such as the Daemons Codex not being undermined and the Chaos Space Marine Codex staying focussed around Chaos Space Marines.
ZephyrRey wrote:And Dave, no problems on the battle reports, when I play a game, it makes it take all of five minutes longer at worst to write down the occurrences, and then in my boring spare time I can write them up. So you can probably expect more (before I go to back to college, that is)
Cracking! Cheers 'Rey, seriously man, thanks for the feedback, it's a very efficient way of judging the balance and at-least you have fun! Thanks man.
streamdragon wrote:So... Berserkers...
They get 4 attacks each on the charge (5 for the champ). Against a T3 opponent, they will wound on 2s and reroll 1's thanks to their Chain Axes...
Really? Chain axes can't just go back to being a CCW? How are they so different from a chain sword that they deserve a special rule? I'd think getting counter attack (and thus 4 attacks / model when RECEIVING a charge!) would be enough...
I'd like to argue, that they are more expensive than their current incarnation, current incarnation which could easily be considered over costed for what you get.
Whilst yes, they do easily defeat the likes of Guardsmen, I would expect nothing less judging by the fluff. I would hope that a 23pts model can butcher a 5pts model personally? It's also worth bearing in mind that these 23pts models are more costly than a Grey Knight and are no tougher than your average tactical marine as well as being a (typically) 0-1 choice...
The reason for making the Chain Axe unique is that in current Codices, it has been so and many players like that. Furthermore, Chain Axes are archaic heresy-era weapons that could - but then again, they don't have to as you've noted - easily warrant their own rules. Finally, all other cult units receive unique weapons, so I don't think that chain-axes doing so is a problem IMHO, particularly when I've had many others say how they want each cult unit to have their own weapon/wargear.
Personally, I wouldn't really imagine re-rolling to wounds of 1 would be too powerful, whilst as a weapon IRL an axe has greater damage potential than a sword due to it's centre of gravity and design etc. whilst it is more cumbersome.
In light of the desire to add further character, their increased points cost and questionable durability, do you still believe them to be overpowered?
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If anyone feels that I am being contrite or even rude with my answers, please bear in mind I will often answer in a tone similar to that in which I was addressed, i.e. if someone was polite and deliberately constructive, then I would be the same in return and much more willing to consider what they have to say all-together.
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but may be something worth bearing in mind if you feel I'm being rude...
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Here's a 'report' of someones game using this Codex, using a foot-slogging Death Guard list.
Here is the general list, although it may or may not have been changed slightly before the game(s):
Spoiler:
Daemon Prince – 330
Daemon Weapon
Wings
Daemonic Protection
Mark of Nurgle
Icon of the Death Guard
Death Guardian
HQ Typhus – 225
Elites
Chaos Terminators – 265
5 Chaos Terminators
Reaper Autocannon
Mark of Nurgle
Daemonic Toughness
Elites
Chaos Terminators – 265
5 Chaos Terminators
Reaper Autocannon
Mark of Nurgle
Daemonic Toughness
Elites
Chosen Chaos Marines – 438
10 Chosen Chaos Marines
Aspiring Champion
Cypher the Fallen
4 Grenade Launchers
Grenade Launcher
Mark of Nurgle
As you can see, VERY similar setups, the opponent has more heavy potential compared to what I have. Though I have far more survivability ;3.
Loyalists gain Initiative (I count as Loyalist) so I choose to go first. The game is objective based (small board) & on the first turn I manage to sit on one of six objectives. Daemon Prince ends up most of the way up field & I choose to depend on his stat line, a purposeful risk to see what he can sit through.
On the opponent's turn, the Prince took 6 Lascannons to the face & came out with only -1W. Damn impressed with what he could withstand. He then entered a duel with an opposing Daemon Prince...it didn't look pretty AT ALL. In the end though the Daemon Weapon proved far too powerful & the enemy prince fell in a SINGLE TURN. To me this was...well, I wouldn't call it overpowered as it's more than possible to end a Daemon Prince in one turn 'anyway'. The 4+ Invulnerable is all that saved my own Prince from annihalation in the same turn, he walked away with only 1 Wound remaining.
Following turn the bolter fire began but between Plague Marine & Plague Marine very few wounds were caused for the rest of the game. I planted myself on two more objectives for a total of three. The Chosen & Terminators moved up field, the Chosen protected by the Terminators. Close Combat next turn, I expected to be charged by something or other. I was wrong. I flew my Prince back a little to wait for a good moment to strike...with his only remaining Wound.
Opponent's turn, he claims one objective & ignores another one nearby (his downfall!) & bolter hails the Terminators. We're talking over 30 models firing on the Terminators. But between Mark of Nurgle & Feel No Pain? No deaths, no wounds.
After seeing the past couple of turns go by & have nothing fall either side, I get a forth objective then move to cover those four. I flew my Daemon Prince back up to fight the second enemy Prince, I inflicted 2 wounds but his took the final 1 from mine.
After the opponent's next turn & another round, not a THING had changed. 4 of 6 objectives sat on, not even the enemy Daemon Prince could drive the Plague Marines away.
The game was called & Loyalist declared the winner...it's a good thing the game was objectives & not kill points !
Can see your point mate, so if i find somewhere a willing opponent im going to try out the tzeentch stuff and tell you how it went with practial experience.
But again, this is mere ranting on points, you did a nice piece of work alltogether
They get 4 attacks each on the charge (5 for the champ). Against a T3 opponent, they will wound on 2s and reroll 1's thanks to their Chain Axes...
Really? Chain axes can't just go back to being a CCW? How are they so different from a chain sword that they deserve a special rule? I'd think getting counter attack (and thus 4 attacks / model when RECEIVING a charge!) would be enough...
Remember what chain axes used to do? (Murder Terminators!!!!!!)
Anyways, I wasn't factoring marks into the horrors or plaguebearers.
About the Bloodthirster, he can be S8 in the demon codex, too. But preferred enemy would be really useful for him also.
They get 4 attacks each on the charge (5 for the champ). Against a T3 opponent, they will wound on 2s and reroll 1's thanks to their Chain Axes...
Really? Chain axes can't just go back to being a CCW? How are they so different from a chain sword that they deserve a special rule? I'd think getting counter attack (and thus 4 attacks / model when RECEIVING a charge!) would be enough...
Remember what chain axes used to do? (Murder Terminators!!!!!!)
Ork Choppas used to do the same thing, now they're just an ordinary CCW.
They get 4 attacks each on the charge (5 for the champ). Against a T3 opponent, they will wound on 2s and reroll 1's thanks to their Chain Axes...
Really? Chain axes can't just go back to being a CCW? How are they so different from a chain sword that they deserve a special rule? I'd think getting counter attack (and thus 4 attacks / model when RECEIVING a charge!) would be enough...
Remember what chain axes used to do? (Murder Terminators!!!!!!)
Ork Choppas used to do the same thing, now they're just an ordinary CCW.
If I roll a 6 for Gifts of the Gods do I get to re-roll FNP?
Is a rebellious demon weapon still a power weapon?
If I give a DP mark of Tzeentch how many psychic powers does he get?
Oh and do you know you lowered the AP on the havoc launcher by one?
Chaos Spawn: The stats are a nice improvement, but why are they Infantry instead of Cavalry? Fleet may seem like a neat idea, but Spawns need a guaranteed 12" Charge. Plus Fleet is nerfed by the Mindless rule, as the unit moves D6 Rerolled + D6+ 6, for an assault unit with Rage this is pretty terrible. By making their movement unreliable and roughly worse then as before the unit is even less useful then the other choices in FA.
Additionally the 5++ makes their need for reliable charging distances a necessity, the extra wound sure makes them tougher in close combat but shooting them is now easier with their slowed movement
Not to mention that generally they will be moving at the same rate as infantry, with an equal chance to overtake infantry as to barely move or remain stationary versus mechanized infantry.
Something that might bear some interest is giving Spawn Rending. While this does seem like quite a boost, compared to the other units in FA and in general, spawns are kinda soft, then again S6 Rending is quite good, so why not S5 Rending and 35 points?
Valek wrote:Can see your point mate, so if i find somewhere a willing opponent im going to try out the tzeentch stuff and tell you how it went with practial experience.
But again, this is mere ranting on points, you did a nice piece of work alltogether
That's fine man, thanks for the kind words too. As I've said, any play-testing is appreciated so I certainly wouldn't complain!
Cheers Valek.
Noisy_Marine wrote:Anyways, I wasn't factoring marks into the horrors or plaguebearers.
About the Bloodthirster, he can be S8 in the demon codex, too. But preferred enemy would be really useful for him also.
Ah, well there's your problem! Are they OK considering the Marks too?
Regarding the 'thister, I may take him down to (+)35pts, but I'm still going to look for an alternative method of improving him rather than cheapening 'im, preferred enemy may just be that however...
Noisy_Marine wrote:Oh I had some rules questions too ...
If I roll a 6 for Gifts of the Gods do I get to re-roll FNP?
Is a rebellious demon weapon still a power weapon?
If I give a DP mark of Tzeentch how many psychic powers does he get?
Oh and do you know you lowered the AP on the havoc launcher by one?
Regarding your questions:
1 - The rule states "The model may re-roll all saves for the duration of the game", as FNP in a 'save', then no it cannot be re-rolled.
2 - It states "Furthermore if it rebels the user gains no additional attacks and all bonuses for wielding the Daemon Weapon are lost for the duration of that turn." as the Power Weapon status is a bonus for wielding the Daemon weapon, this is lost as-well; I'll clarify this in the 'dex.
3 - 1 Psychic Power & 1 cast per turn. 2 Psychic Powers and 2 cast per turns if he also selects the Psyker rule across.
As for the Havoc Launcher; yes it should be AP6, but it's now also Heavy 2 but not twin-linked.
Eyclonus wrote:Chaos Spawn: The stats are a nice improvement, but why are they Infantry instead of Cavalry? Fleet may seem like a neat idea, but Spawns need a guaranteed 12" Charge. Plus Fleet is nerfed by the Mindless rule, as the unit moves D6 Rerolled + D6+ 6, for an assault unit with Rage this is pretty terrible. By making their movement unreliable and roughly worse then as before the unit is even less useful then the other choices in FA.
Additionally the 5++ makes their need for reliable charging distances a necessity, the extra wound sure makes them tougher in close combat but shooting them is now easier with their slowed movement
Not to mention that generally they will be moving at the same rate as infantry, with an equal chance to overtake infantry as to barely move or remain stationary versus mechanized infantry.
Something that might bear some interest is giving Spawn Rending. While this does seem like quite a boost, compared to the other units in FA and in general, spawns are kinda soft, then again S6 Rending is quite good, so why not S5 Rending and 35 points?
That's a fair point man, the problem here however is that with the various ways to create spawn (e.g. Improved Gift of Chaos, Gift of the Gods), having such a mobile model may be a bit too much IMHO, whilst the chances of rolling a double 1 are quite slim. It's a fair point however, how about letting it run 2D6 (picking the highest) as well, rather than just D6?
Regarding Rending, I feel that may be too much personally; with D6 Str5 rending attacks per spawn being pretty powerful, whilst Str6 is already pretty good.
As you noted however, they are much tougher now, with 4 T5 wounds and an invulnerable save, so even to shooting they wouldn't go down easily. 5 Spawn is just 150pts; giving you 20 T6, 5++ wounds - which would need 20 bolt shots to cause one wound (out of 20!).
What would you think to them being able to roll 2D6 for run, or being 35pts and beast?
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I'm also strongly considering re-adding the 5++ (but this cannot be re-rolled) to the Rubric Marines as I'm not sure they warrant 23pts as it is. Still in the concept stage however.
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Also, are you pleased with this Codex? If so which Codex do you think I should tackle next? Eldar, Space Marines or possibly Tau or Daemons at a push?
On the next codex i think tau need a lift but so do vinilla marines, i think the spawn should be 35 and beasts just my thought on it. i dont use rubic marines so i donno about the +5. oh i have a list almost together to play test your dex will post later.
Aha, now my initial codex with Warsmith sorcerer do work! Very nice that you changed that.
One wish if you are to change the codex in it another time (and I am not being nitpicky, I am just a bit strict) - write so it says Berzerkers instead of Bezerkers.
Ha! Well, although it wasn't entirely intentional, I'm glad you're happy! As for the BeRzerkers, as it's a spelling mistake, I'm more than happy to change it. Cheers Saint.
But yeah, I am liking this fandex a great deal, and I love how instead of just making it a wishlist you're actually incorporating feedback instead of just saying "lolno that sucks why make it wurs?"
But yeah, I am liking this fandex a great deal, and I love how instead of just making it a wishlist you're actually incorporating feedback instead of just saying "lolno that sucks why make it wurs?"
Ha! Cheers man, I appreciate that! I have tried to listen to peoples feedback and I'm certainly willing to listen to that!
Currently looking most like I'll attempt Eldar; I know them MUCH better than I know Tau and I've already done a lot of thinking about them, but we shall see...
I disagree entirely. Eldar still have many means of being competative, whilst Tau really don't. Both Tau and Crons are the ones desperately in need of revists, although with crons it is ridiculously easy, just take out phase out, c'tans, and add rending to gauss weapons, and you're good. Maybe redo points a little bit.
Man. A chaos space marine should not be better and cheaper than a regular space marine. You get leadership 10?? All of them have close combat weapons and bolt pistols and bolters? They are better in every way, it's a little broken. In fact a lot of stuff in here is broken. A dreadnought that ignores a pen every turn??? For 155pts?!?? That's way better than a venerable. Also the dreadnoughts crazed rule has no drawback now. And you've got leadership 10 on like everything. All is dust is waaaay too good too. Same with raptors. Same price as an assault marine with leadership 10 for free. Even two lightening claws are 5 points cheaper. Why? This codex seems intentionally imbalanced.
Iandroid wrote:Man. A chaos space marine should not be better and cheaper than a regular space marine. You get leadership 10?? All of them have close combat weapons and bolt pistols and bolters? They are better in every way, it's a little broken. In fact a lot of stuff in here is broken. A dreadnought that ignores a pen every turn??? For 155pts?!?? That's way better than a venerable. Also the dreadnoughts crazed rule has no drawback now. And you've got leadership 10 on like everything. All is dust is waaaay too good too. Same with raptors. Same price as an assault marine with leadership 10 for free. Even two lightening claws are 5 points cheaper. Why? This codex seems intentionally imbalanced.
You say all of that, get on with your rant. When your finished, I'll start.
Compare everything to space wolves. You have your answer. Space wolves are better than codex marines. Codex marines have ATSKNF. Chaos don't. Same with raptors. The dreadnought that ignores a pen? That's 1 pen. Hit it with 3 meltaguns and it'l drop pretty quickly. All is dust is a 5+ invun. Not as good as it is now, obviously.
Iandroid wrote:Man. A chaos space marine should not be better and cheaper than a regular space marine. You get leadership 10?? All of them have close combat weapons and bolt pistols and bolters? They are better in every way, it's a little broken. In fact a lot of stuff in here is broken. A dreadnought that ignores a pen every turn??? For 155pts?!?? That's way better than a venerable. Also the dreadnoughts crazed rule has no drawback now. And you've got leadership 10 on like everything. All is dust is waaaay too good too. Same with raptors. Same price as an assault marine with leadership 10 for free. Even two lightening claws are 5 points cheaper. Why? This codex seems intentionally imbalanced.
Maybe the opposite is true and the Space Marines Codex is imbalanced? But not in a good way.
The Chaos Space Marine statline is no different from their existing version and you don't hear people complaining about that. Note that the loyalist Space Marines have ATSKNF and Combat Tactics included in their points cost. Chaos Space Marines are veterans that in many cases fought in the Horus Heresy and alongside the Primarch Demi-gods and even the Emperor, they spend their time in the Eye of Terror facing what any sane man would consider hell; I think a high leadership is justified and compensates for the lack of ATSKNF.
The Dreadnought Magnate does have potential to be too good I admit, however all you have to do is penetrate or glance it twice and it's not tougher; for 50pts more. It's like the venerable dreadnought which itself is considered a very dubious choice and is arguably tougher.
The Crazed rule is still a drawback in that you don't have control of your machine. What if your Dread goes running off after a unit of Grots? Starts shooting its lascannon at these grots? Stays still when you want it to be charging? Charging when you want it to be shooting? I don't imagine even Chaos Dreadnoughts being insane enough to shoot their own guys; they could equally shoot at nothing or trees in hallucinations.
All is Dust costs you 23pts on a unit that is no tougher (infact weaker) in assault than a standard CSM. Or, you just shoot them with AP3 weapons. Thousand Sons are supposed to be highly resilient to small arms, this reflects that whilst leaving them with a definable weakness: Assault and AP3 weapons. They also cost more than a Grey Knight.
As for the Lightning Claws; I don't really see many people taking them; hence their reduced cost. Same with Plasma Pistols. It's simply to give the player viable options. Do you think 2 lightning claws for 30pts is too much?!
Raptors don't have Ld10 as standard, furthermore they also don't have ATSKNF or Combat Tactics and Assault Marines are often considered a weak unit; hence the difference. They also don't have any of the benefits that BA's can get.
My Codex may appear to you as intentionally imbalanced, but your statement appears to me as unintentionally naive and ill-informed.
I've said several times I welcome all constructive feedback, particularly if it's polite. I feel yours was neither.
Iandroid wrote:Man. A chaos space marine should not be better and cheaper than a regular space marine. You get leadership 10?? All of them have close combat weapons and bolt pistols and bolters? They are better in every way, it's a little broken. In fact a lot of stuff in here is broken. A dreadnought that ignores a pen every turn??? For 155pts?!?? That's way better than a venerable. Also the dreadnoughts crazed rule has no drawback now. And you've got leadership 10 on like everything. All is dust is waaaay too good too. Same with raptors. Same price as an assault marine with leadership 10 for free. Even two lightening claws are 5 points cheaper. Why? This codex seems intentionally imbalanced.
Maybe the opposite is true and the Space Marines Codex is imbalanced? But not in a good way.
The Chaos Space Marine statline is no different from their existing version and you don't hear people complaining about that. Note that the loyalist Space Marines have ATSKNF and Combat Tactics included in their points cost. Chaos Space Marines are veterans that in many cases fought in the Horus Heresy and alongside the Primarch Demi-gods and even the Emperor, they spend their time in the Eye of Terror facing what any sane man would consider hell; I think a high leadership is justified and compensates for the lack of ATSKNF.
The Dreadnought Magnate does have potential to be too good I admit, however all you have to do is penetrate or glance it twice and it's not tougher; for 50pts more. It's like the venerable dreadnought which itself is considered a very dubious choice and is arguably tougher.
The Crazed rule is still a drawback in that you don't have control of your machine. What if your Dread goes running off after a unit of Grots? Starts shooting its lascannon at these grots? Stays still when you want it to be charging? Charging when you want it to be shooting? I don't imagine even Chaos Dreadnoughts being insane enough to shoot their own guys; they could equally shoot at nothing or trees in hallucinations.
All is Dust costs you 23pts on a unit that is no tougher (infact weaker) in assault than a standard CSM. Or, you just shoot them with AP3 weapons. Thousand Sons are supposed to be highly resilient to small arms, this reflects that whilst leaving them with a definable weakness: Assault and AP3 weapons. They also cost more than a Grey Knight.
As for the Lightning Claws; I don't really see many people taking them; hence their reduced cost. Same with Plasma Pistols. It's simply to give the player viable options. Do you think 2 lightning claws for 30pts is too much?!
Raptors don't have Ld10 as standard, furthermore they also don't have ATSKNF or Combat Tactics and Assault Marines are often considered a weak unit; hence the difference. They also don't have any of the benefits that BA's can get.
My Codex may appear to you as intentionally imbalanced, but your statement appears to me as unintentionally naive and ill-informed.
I've said several times I welcome all constructive feedback, particularly if it's polite. I feel yours was neither.
QFT.
Quite honestly I think we should get ATSKNF considering, well, the fluff that you referred to above, but hey, ld10 is nice too.
ZephyrRey wrote:
Quite honestly I think we should get ATSKNF considering, well, the fluff that you referred to above, but hey, LD10 is nice too.
They don't have ATSKNF to represent that they no longer follow the light of the Emperor and that they generally have their own agenda and self preservation above the greater goal. The LD 10 still gives them a fighting chance of hanging in there.
Renegades have the Combat Squad option to signify that they are only recently turned from the the Emperor, but still hold on to some of their training. I wanted to have Renegades with a cheaper cost and a statline more inline with their Space Marine counterparts, but the issue was how then to incorporate Traitors into it. Do you add the +1 LD and whatever bonus with an increase in points as an upgrade or do you have a separate entry for a Legionnaire. It's one of the ideas I am still trying to work out myself without making it too complicated.
Hey Just Dave, really good looking codex...I have a hard enough time getting a game set up, and I play with people who are leery of fan created army books (with good reason) though I'm going to work on getting to try this out (at least in part).
Just a question, I think I noticed a lack of being able to take twin lightning claws on the Chaos Lord and Terminator Lord, was this intentional?
Also, a game related question:
If I take a PA Chaos Lord and give him say...the mark of slannesh and the Renegade Warband ability, could I take Kharn too, or would that be disallowed? Also can I take a Marked lord with Alpha Legion Warband or is this disallowed?
My current (Alessio/Gav)codex setup has a Kharn count-as alongside a PA Chaos Lord with MoS, Wings and a Daemon Weapon.
Furthermore, would I not be allowed to put the PA, Slannesh marked lord with Khorne marked CSMs? I currently take the Khorne mark mostly because I want an assault heavy army, Kharn I take as a Kaleb Daarke (Malal champion-self hating Chaos worshiper) and the slannesh marked lord because he's supposed to be a psycher, but with them being so unreliable due to all the hoods and debuffs, I get my force weapon and Radical Good Speed inspite of them.
Edit:
Also, just thought of it, if you take the Gift of the Gods upgrade and roll "psyker" what power(s) do you get? Do you pay for them, because it seems like something that you'd do before deployment...and tacking on an extra X amount of points right before the start of the game, or selecting a high priced/powerful spell might be unbalancing (though I'd love to see my lord get something like Doom Bolt so I'd go all Vegeta Voice and scream out "SAD FOR YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!" as I have him blast something)
Also, is the Tzeentch Daemon weapon not the "magic gun" from the current codex, but a power weapon with rending in your book?
Trevak Dal wrote:Hey Just Dave, really good looking codex...I have a hard enough time getting a game set up, and I play with people who are leery of fan created army books (with good reason) though I'm going to work on getting to try this out (at least in part).
Cheers man, glad you like it and are intending to get a game set-up.
I agree though, I completely understand their reluctance regarding fandex's, I would be the same in their situation; this things are usually very dodgy game-wise IMHO.
For what it's worth, it should be no more powerful than any other 5th edition Codex and other people have play-tested it and found it very balanced. It also has a balanced win/loss/draw record for what that's worth too. Ultimately, if I was in their shoes I'd give it a go, but I understand their reluctance.
Of course, any experience/feedback you can get with this Codex would be greatly appreciated but don't worry if you can't!
Just a question, I think I noticed a lack of being able to take twin lightning claws on the Chaos Lord and Terminator Lord, was this intentional?
You noticed incorrectly sir! The PA options list "May replace his Bolt Pistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with" (including Lightning Claw for 15pts), so if he replaces both he gets a pair of lightning claws for 30pts total. It's a similar situation for the Terminator armour. The options there, it's just not listed "may take a pair of lightning claws..." like you may expect.
Also, a game related question:
If I take a PA Chaos Lord and give him say...the mark of slannesh and the Renegade Warband ability, could I take Kharn too, or would that be disallowed? Also can I take a Marked lord with Alpha Legion Warband or is this disallowed?
That would kind of be allowed.
You can take a Lord with any mark and give him Icon of the Renegade/their warband ability.
Kharn however comes with Icon of the World Eaters included, meaning he can't be part of the Renegade warband.
So, you could include them both in the same army, however they can't be in the same warband. So, Kharn and your lord would be in separate warbands in the same army, which means that Kharn for example couldn't join a squad bearing a different warband Icon (so he can't join a unit with the Icon of the Renegade).
Does that make sense? This is all explained in the 'dex itself, but obviously if you're unsure it can't answer the question for you!
You can take a marked Alpha Legion character; there's no real restrictions with my warband methods, except for god-specific warbands and units from separate warbands interacting.
Furthermore, would I not be allowed to put the PA, Slannesh marked lord with Khorne marked CSMs? I currently take the Khorne mark mostly because I want an assault heavy army, Kharn I take as a Kaleb Daarke (Malal champion-self hating Chaos worshiper) and the slannesh marked lord because he's supposed to be a psycher, but with them being so unreliable due to all the hoods and debuffs, I get my force weapon and Radical Good Speed inspite of them.
Nope, he can join a unit with a different mark providing they both bear the same warband icon.
Edit:
Also, just thought of it, if you take the Gift of the Gods upgrade and roll "psyker" what power(s) do you get? Do you pay for them, because it seems like something that you'd do before deployment...and tacking on an extra X amount of points right before the start of the game, or selecting a high priced/powerful spell might be unbalancing (though I'd love to see my lord get something like Doom Bolt so I'd go all Vegeta Voice and scream out "SAD FOR YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!" as I have him blast something)
You can get any power you want following the usual restrictions (e.g. your slaanesh lord couldn't take Nurgles Rot, Warp Flare or Bolt of Change). So yes, your Lord could potentially get Doom Bolt. However, he could also end up turned into a spawn or suffer perils of the warp if he does become a psyker... Does that make sense?
Also, is the Tzeentch Daemon weapon not the "magic gun" from the current codex, but a power weapon with rending in your book?
Yep. Basically exactly that, follows the usual rules for Daemon Weapons (+d6 attacks, rebels, ignores armour saves), but it also rends on a 4+ for MoT.
Well, I figured that of course there would be twin-linked Heavy Bolter Sponsons, just like the ones from the Land Raiders Hull... You could probably find one in the swap shop.
As for the Marauder Cannon, it was inspired by the Brass Scorpion, so you could make it look like that; easily done with the Autocannons from the Defiler for example, or you could use something akin to the Punisher's or Thunderfire's Cannon, or alternatively just the twin-linked Assault Cannon turret would be very reasonable IMHO.
If you do make it man, I'd love to see it!
I'm definately going to do it as i also saw a proposed LR with Reaper Sponsons that i'd quite like to make as well.
It is going to take a while as i can't really afford the bits right now (damn looming redundancy). I have the Basic LR and will paint it in full but leave off the entire sponson assembly so the whole thing can be swtiched out.
So i will need sponson sets for lascannons, TL H.Bolters and Reapers.
Then something to replace the Hull H.Bolter with some sort of multi-barrelled affair.......i'd like to avoid the Assault Cannon if possible, and i think the Punisher or Thunderfire might be too big. i also think it shoudl be in a hull mounted turret like the H.Bolter on the Baneblade. That could look pretty cool and also avoid you having to model some kind of ammo feed for it.
EDIT: I'm now thinkng triple barrelled gun could look good And wuodl also look different enough from the assault cannon to set it apart. I just need to find soem small plastic tubes for barrels (i'm thinking ear buds might work if they're not too flimsy) and it should be pretty straight forward to do.
Ok, just a few more questions before I make an army list:
Daemon weapons: You roll a 1 on the D6 and it rebels, the character takes a wound, no saves allowed but he still gets to make his base attacks (with no bonuses conferred from the Daemon weapon) right?
If so, then a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne and Chaos Mutation Gift would still make 6 monstrous Creature Attacks (ignoring armor saves, etc.) and a Lord would just...punch them (still getting 6 attacks if the same marks and gifts) shouting something rude about Guilliman (or more likely Leman Russ...) or the Emperor or something right?
Also, about Lord Valinqurst(sp) do the Possessed become troops (like the Chosen with Infiltrate under the Alpha Legion Warband) or are they still elites?
Alpha Legion Warband: If I take Chosen (with Infiltrate) as troops, can I still take Elite Chosen with other veteran skills? (I got a Chosen squad that I use as Fallen right now-all plasma guns and bathrobes, I think Mr. Cypher would do well joining them and the unit having relentless)
Edit:
And can the Lord take say...2 power fists, OR a Powerfist and a Daemon Weapon? If he can take a DW and Powerfist, and if the Daemon Weapon rebels (and he can still make attacks) can he use his powerfist? I know that's probably out of left field, but after you answered my lightning claw question I looked at it again while I was at work last night and got to thinking.
Praxiss wrote:I'm definately going to do it as i also saw a proposed LR with Reaper Sponsons that i'd quite like to make as well.
It is going to take a while as i can't really afford the bits right now (damn looming redundancy). I have the Basic LR and will paint it in full but leave off the entire sponson assembly so the whole thing can be swtiched out.
So i will need sponson sets for lascannons, TL H.Bolters and Reapers.
Then something to replace the Hull H.Bolter with some sort of multi-barrelled affair.......i'd like to avoid the Assault Cannon if possible, and i think the Punisher or Thunderfire might be too big. i also think it shoudl be in a hull mounted turret like the H.Bolter on the Baneblade. That could look pretty cool and also avoid you having to model some kind of ammo feed for it.
EDIT: I'm now thinkng triple barrelled gun could look good And wuodl also look different enough from the assault cannon to set it apart. I just need to find soem small plastic tubes for barrels (i'm thinking ear buds might work if they're not too flimsy) and it should be pretty straight forward to do.
Well that's fair enough man, I certainly won't complain! I'd love to see it if you do make it though!
I guess for the Hull Heavy Bolter you could just use the twin reaper autocannons from the defiler and the sponsons on the other variant you're going to make. As I said, the weapon was inspired by the brass scorpion, whose main non-Forge World version looks like this:
Spoiler:
So it may be easier to use a Autocannons so you can switch between using them as a sponson weapon or hull weapon?
I think the triple-barrelled gun could work and would certainly look different. An example of the thunderfire cannon could be Land Raider achilles however, which it's mounted upon. It could provide some reference for the triple-barrelled gun too.
As I said, it sounds good to me man.
Trevak Dal wrote:Ok, just a few more questions before I make an army list:
Daemon weapons: You roll a 1 on the D6 and it rebels, the character takes a wound, no saves allowed but he still gets to make his base attacks (with no bonuses conferred from the Daemon weapon) right?
If so, then a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne and Chaos Mutation Gift would still make 6 monstrous Creature Attacks (ignoring armor saves, etc.) and a Lord would just...punch them (still getting 6 attacks if the same marks and gifts) shouting something rude about Guilliman (or more likely Leman Russ...) or the Emperor or something right?
More questions is absolutely fine, I'd be interested to see your army list when you've made it too if you wouldn't mind?
Regarding the Daemon Weapon, yes you're exactly right. 4 base attacks, 1 from MoK, 1 from Mutation means 6 attacks as you said, so as he gets no benefits from the Daemon Weapon but ignores armour saves as standard, as you said that'd be 6 monstrous creature attacks whilst the ordinary lord would get no benefits...
Also, about Lord Valinqurst(sp) do the Possessed become troops (like the Chosen with Infiltrate under the Alpha Legion Warband) or are they still elites?
They'd remain elites; Scoring =/= Troops. Pedro is the same for example.
Alpha Legion Warband: If I take Chosen (with Infiltrate) as troops, can I still take Elite Chosen with other veteran skills? (I got a Chosen squad that I use as Fallen right now-all plasma guns and bathrobes, I think Mr. Cypher would do well joining them and the unit having relentless)
Yep, that's exactly fine.
It's also worth pointing out that you don't HAVE to take them as troops if they have infiltrate...
Like the sound of the Fallen too; though it may be worth infiltrating so they can close their range? Btw, Cypher also confers Stealth to the unit...
And can the Lord take say...2 power fists, OR a Powerfist and a Daemon Weapon? If he can take a DW and Powerfist, and if the Daemon Weapon rebels (and he can still make attacks) can he use his powerfist? I know that's probably out of left field, but after you answered my lightning claw question I looked at it again while I was at work last night and got to thinking.
A lord can take 2 power fists, yep.
As for the Power Fist and Daemon Weapon, he can take both, but as to being able to use a Powerfist as a back-up I'm honestly not sure...
That's more of a general rules question, which isn't my area of expertise. I would've thought that's fine, but I'm honestly not sure. It may be worth making a thread in YMDC asking as it's something that applies to the current Daemon Weapon too, rather than my version and people would know an actual answer to an actual rulebook...
Sorry I can't be of more help regarding that specific question however...
I always imagined the Marauder Cannon as a really big grenade launcher, so if I made one it'd probably look like the TF or a Vulcan megabolter cut in half, somehow (so only one of the two turrets are used)... Would cost a fortune though, but would be quite fun to build.
@ Just Dave. My only issue with having essentially AutoCannons hull mounted would be that they are so long. From a purely aesthetic point of view i think the hull mounted gun should be shorter. I can see the grenade launcher idea though, maybe have one large bore cannon similiar in look to a demolisher cannon, but smaller obviously. Maybe the try mounting the BA Furioso Dread Frag Cannon on some sort of turret?
Quick question about the Marauder Sponsons. Did you ever think of switching out the H.Bolters for Havoc Launchers? They have the same S and the Havoc loses Ap but gains range and a blast marker. Havocs just strike me as more chaos-y.
Just a thought.
Might have to make some Havoc launcher sponsons as well.....this is getting more expensive by the minute.
Praxiss wrote:@ Just Dave. My only issue with having essentially AutoCannons hull mounted would be that they are so long. From a purely aesthetic point of view i think the hull mounted gun should be shorter. I can see the grenade launcher idea though, maybe have one large bore cannon similiar in look to a demolisher cannon, but smaller obviously. Maybe the try mounting the BA Furioso Dread Frag Cannon on some sort of turret?
Quick question about the Marauder Sponsons. Did you ever think of switching out the H.Bolters for Havoc Launchers? They have the same S and the Havoc loses Ap but gains range and a blast marker. Havocs just strike me as more chaos-y.
Just a thought.
Might have to make some Havoc launcher sponsons as well.....this is getting more expensive by the minute.
That's a really good point about the length of the Hull-guns actually, yeah. Although then again, personally I don't think a single large-bore cannon would work IMHO however as I feel they're more suited to blast, rather than high ROF weapons I'd say. Though something like the Frag Launcher could work well!
Regarding the Havocs, I did consider it when trying to decide on a custom Land Raider, but decided against it for 2 reasons: 1) I don't feel they'd look good on sponsons and 2) I feel they're more suited for a shooty/less aggressive Land Raider, rather than a line breaker like the Marauder. You are welcome to add them should you want to of course however; feel free.
It was never going to be cheap in the 1st place to be fair, your just making it worse for yourself!
Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Also noted that champions cannot take TL bolters anymore. Is this supposed to be this way?
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Saintspirit wrote:Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Well, it's supposed to be able to penetrate armour still, so yeah. Does it make sense under that intention?
Also noted that champions cannot take TL bolters anymore. Is this supposed to be this way?
Kind of... I honestly cannot recall if this was intentional or not when I first did it, considering it's a minor point, but realistically, who ever took TL Bolters unless it was on a Terminator?
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Very good catch sir! I'll edit that as soon as I can, although you can see the intention there!
Saintspirit wrote:Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Well, it's supposed to be able to penetrate armour still, so yeah. Does it make sense under that intention?
Yes.
Just Dave wrote:
Also noted that champions cannot take TL bolters anymore. Is this supposed to be this way?
Kind of... I honestly cannot recall if this was intentional or not when I first did it, considering it's a minor point, but realistically, who ever took TL Bolters unless it was on a Terminator?
Good point. I know I don't.
Just Dave wrote:
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Very good catch sir! I'll edit that as soon as I can, although you can see the intention there!
Yes of course, but what would you say if there where several X:s in an official codex?
Saintspirit wrote:Minor, but: Maybe the MoN on the dreadnought should, instead of making the bolters wound on 3+ or better, be poisoned weapons that wounds on 3+? Just to avoid rule arguments about whether the heavy bolter can damage the tank or not (of coure, if it is supposed to be able to then it shouldn't change).
Well, it's supposed to be able to penetrate armour still, so yeah. Does it make sense under that intention?
Yes.
Great!
Just Dave wrote:
And finally: Why are the description of Visions of Chaos written quite odd?
Very good catch sir! I'll edit that as soon as I can, although you can see the intention there!
Yes of course, but what would you say if there where several X:s in an official codex?
Fair point man! Though, you might prefer it instead of some psychic powers! I've updated the original post with a PDF with an updated version with Visions of Chaos clarified!
I would just like to take this opportunity to thank everyone that's supported this Codex and my creating it.
I've been grumbling that it's got the worst views-to-comment ratio in proposed rules, but reading back through the thread you guys have been really supportive and provided some great feedback so thanks again Dakka.*
Hope everyone continues to enjoy it - though it's not quite finished yet - and finds it helpful.
I also hope I've been an accommodating creator/editor as well! I'm pleased with the final product if I do say so myself!
Thanks again,
Cheers, Dave.
*on that note, I'd also like to just clarify that I don't intend for my (latest) signature to look big-headed or pompous etc, but rather just try to encourage people to take a look, rather than blow my own trumpet...
Cheers guys, again I really appreciate it and I'm glad you all like it.
Thanks for the list too Praxiss, seems balanced to me which is the whole idea in asking for lists; reassures me it's not OP which is the main thing I intend to avoid. Cheers man.
Here's my feedback/suggestions. BTW if you want 'credentials' then i've played CSM's for 10 years and have known three of their codex's off the top of my head. I've run three warhammer clubs and i'm merely 22! So I hope what I throw at you now will be food for thought at least, added or built upon at best. This will be a very long post, I warn you... I don't really do brief but I hope to give you some full feedback and you wrote a codex so I would hope you can take my mountain of words!
Warband Icons.
Spoiler:
So... if I have two HQ's, one Nurgle and one Slaanesh I can take noise marines and plague marines? Now.. I think this is a little uncharacterful for the traitor legions and, if you'll allow me..falling into the trap of the loyalist 'Space Marines outright win' doctrine. You should, in my opinion... make the player designate the 'Chaos Lord', the leader, the army general. This is the head hancho. Now in general terms if he's culted (World Eaters for example) he get's no other marks. If you have a second HQ with a different Icon say Slan... then the army should be allowed 0-2, 0-3.. however many units with THAT Icon and it's rules. It doesn't obliterate your rules, merely limits them to be stricter to Chaos whilst keeping some options open... otherwise why not have all 7 troops choices... five KB squads and two plague marine squads backed up by three havoc death guard. It's only gonna happen in one situation as far as the fluff goes.. and that's if Abby is sitting at the front with Drach pointing forward. So you should make that a benefit of the Black Legion Icon or/and renegades that they don't impose the limitations if they're the general... the second Icon can be anything in all it's true glory.
OR have I got the wrong end of the stick and these Icons are not blanket rules... for example a World Eater Icon doesn't impose the Mark of Khorne? Even so.. the mark limitation is there... so I could have a World Eater Icon and not take the mark of khorne but still be subject to the Icons limitations that come from the implication I am taking the MoK (and rightly so! What self respecting chaos player would be WE's and not take it!). Are there no World Eater noise marines? Berserk Death Guard? There are sorcerous EC's and DG! You catch my drift...as crazy as it sounds, think about this angle. It's crazy, but this is CHAOS.... I whole heartedly think it's a fallacy but the general populance might like the idea of not type casting the legions to their traditional God's marks.
Either way I think they might need a little more clarification in regards to marks or I overlooked something, which is possible.
All CSM Legions from the HH should have the 'Preferred Enemy: Loyalist Marines' in my opinion, but i'll leave that to you. Too powerful?
Special Rules.
Spoiler:
Add the following to Veteran Skills:
Scouts
Move Through Cover
Skilled Riders
(Love the 'No Mercy' rule btw)
Special Characters:
Spoiler:
Abaddon - please. Dear GOD PLEASE. Get rid of the mastery issue with Drach'Nyen. This is Abaddon. Can I just remind you about him? This man singlehandedly united a horde of millions under HIS will to attack Cadia, several times. He's lead 13, yes, 13 crusades against the Imperium and the galaxy (Ghaz has lead two? Solar lead one? The EMPEROR lead two, one on earth, and the great crusade) This guy bested the C'tan, the Imperium and the Eldar to steal two of the black stone fortresses. He's got a ship that can blow planets up and has earned the favour of four of, if not THE most fickle and complicated beings in the entire 40k fluff individually and has turned down Daemonhood. Not to mention.... he's over 10,000 years old. I would hope, i'd pray for the sake of all things holy that I am not the only Chaos or warhammer player that see's this man having mastery issues over a Daemon that's allowed itself to be bound into a blade as being utterly ridiculous. Not to mention... I don't see Inquisitors in the GK codex having such an issue and their blades are in some cases equally as effective.
Finally he's got the heart of chaos. Whatever THAT is you might want to put something in there about that.... let's him re-roll his 4++ or gives him Psychic immunity or something akin.
If anyone thinks any of this makes Abaddon too powerful.. have a glance at the Swarm Lord or Draigo or the Saguanigor (however it's spelt) and tell me the biggest bad ass in all Chaos shouldn't actually be this bad ass for 280 smackers and apparently incapable of fighting any of the above without having to give his sword a 'time out' mid duel. It's embarrasing.
Ahriman - point reduction was greatly needed. He's still really expensive though. One strength 8+ hit and he's done with only a 50-50 chance. I'm talking any nob, warboss, power fist, las cannon, battle canon.. there are ton's of things. I'd be almost tempted to just make his save 3+ invul tbh... it very likely will be in the next codex anyway i've heard... there are so many of them floating about these days afterall... chaos should have at least one perhaps?
As for his psychic test. Don't make him auto pass. He knows his stuff does Ahriman but if Eldrad doesn't auto pass... I find it hard to accept even Ahriman would and he may be tzeentch but there are still three other gods worth of daemons that would have his head. I'd take a different angle on this.. make his psychic test immune to tampering. He always rolls 2D6, just the two, no matter what, and can only ever suffer a Perils on 2 or 12. No equipment (eldar stones) or special rules (shadow in the warp) can effect this in any way.
Raise his initiative to 6 or 7. Ahriman tricked the Eldar and has been hunting them for years. He's escaped powerful attacks, orchistrated genocieds, laid traps for GK's goddamit! He's faster and smarter than the average joe force commander!
Kharn - Awesome. Put his 'hit everything on 2+ because i'm a betraying nails man with a big axe' rule back though.
Typhus - is monstrous! I've got mixed feelings about him tbh. 5 insta death power weapon attacks on the charge is fairly horrible...imagine him vs nids? "Watch my Hive Tyrant go! Oh wait....you hit and wounded me with one attack. My Trygon will handle it... oh... no.. wait a tick... nope, you hit and wounded with a single attack again." I'd consider, but not necessarily reduce his attacks to 3 or his initiative to 4. Maybe even change the blades effects. Power Weapon that does D3 wounds every turn after at least a single wound is inflicted and is poisoned (2/3+).
Lucius - sexy as ever (the tongue does it for me, lmao).
Huron - I find the man a waste of time in any codex.
DP character - he's good man. Though i'd define his legion yourself tbh and give him wings OR do the unthinkable and let him join units of possesed.
For Org Chart:
Spoiler:
HQ's
Lords - seperate them. Give us a Dreadlord, Chaos Lord and a Captain. Dreadlords are like Abby. They're Uber 10k year old monsters. Give them like an extra pt of Initiative and let the person choose WS or BS for the other and throw on an extra 15/20pts. Chaos Lords as shown, equal of their loyalist counter parts and Captains a token 2 wound lesser HQ. We all loved the lieut from the awesome 3rd edit.
DP's - +25pts for a single point of toughness? REALLY? He's only like 30pts off the Avatar you know and in that 30pts you've got to cover initiative, WS, BS and Invul save differences to just make the stat line equal, we'll forget the wailing doom, immunity to flamers, plasma and melta and aura of inspiration. I reckon the extra 5pts (as you said in 'why') isn't necessary, 130pts is still an investment for the basic guy as he's not THAT durable even with T6 and 5++.
Sorcerer - 110pts for two wounds? Are you joking? He cost's that now and you get 3! You need to do something with that I reckon. Split sorcerers up like the loyalist's get the two types of Librarians for example.
Elites:
Posessed - they don't shoot guns anymore? They're not mindless/stupid you know, just posessed and crazed, pulling a trigger is suprisingly easy even if you're manic. XD
Chosen - let us take as many chosen champs as we want. They're chosen... not veterans. Theoretically a bucket load of CSM's are mere veterans. Cypher - ace.
Fabius - agree with his positioning but i'd give him a regen factor carbon copy of the Tyranids (roll end of every turn one D6 for missing wounds and get them back on roll of 6). Otherwise dandy.
Sorcerers Coven - give them BS 5, not WS. They're sorcerers, not maulers unless the WS advantage is a combat deficite mitigation but i'd have thought a power weapon wielding space marine that shoots magic would be enough for most.... Make them 0-1 unit or limited to one unit per HQ with the mark of Tzeentch. Why even limit them to TS's for that matter? Good fluff I suppose either way!
Troops:
Why does my unit of CSM's have to have 10men for a heavy weapon? I never understood this rule at all.....i'd give the abilty to upgrade a squad to Heresy Veterans at like +2pts a model in which case they get the veterans rule.
KB's - Yeap good. No Mercy?
No Plague Zombies or mutants?
Fast Attack
Bikes - hit and run over. Oh how I lol'd at the brilliance.
Raptors - used to be like vampiric nightmares almost. They struck fear and gave like -1LD. Potentially room for improvement, but really they're alright! Still just glorified assault marines though.
Chaos Spawn - needs to be more expensive. 4 wounds, invul save, potential assault range of 24"....cut that down (even with a 1/36 chance of it doing nothing, that's still only likely a single turn according to the odds). 15 of them at 450pts. That's 15 T5, 4W monsters with potentially 7 attacks each, S6 and an average assault arch of 18"...... Just make it fleet and rending or poisoned with D3+1 wounds for 30pts... that'd be an interesting unit, hell i'd use it for some fun!
Heavy Support:
Oblits: Think about toughness 5. They're not invincible even with 2+ armour and 5+ invul but with T4 they're really easy to kill i've found, especially with a wave serpents twin linked bright lance or hive guard. It's just 'boom' insta death every time and 5+ isn't good enough to stop it.
Defiler: The mark of khorne should cost something. Mark of Nurgle should probably cost a little more..
Daemons:
Lesser and Greater. I thought the idea was brilliant actually. Giving them the option to take marks which made them way beefy, but not as good as true forms was awesome. I'd give the greater daemons the option to take wings for like +20pts and give the khorne GD either the ability to nullify spells on a 4+ within 12" or summit OR a 3+ save.
Nurgle GD should have lower initiative probably and Tzeentch GD definitely shouldn't be lower then 5.
Weapons:
Spoiler:
Blastmaster? Why change it at all? I didn't see it in your 'why' section. The blast, strength 8, ap 3 single frequency is one of the current weapons in C:CSM's that is actually unique to chaos and pretty good.
Ether Cannon vs Lascannon? Why bother? You should do something with Ether Cannon like reduce it's strength (8, 7) but give it a +3D6 armour pen or able to ignore invul saves as well... I don't know.. be chaotically creative.
Daemon Weapons: You've lessened the negatives so to speak but still why would I bother taking one? High point cost and a likeliness i'm going to do at least one wound to myself a battle. Meh. The very original Daemon weapons where you rolled a one to wound or hit and it ended up being resolved against you (with the LD) seemed more like playable rules. You could save the hit and there were still mastery rules. Personally i'd give the DW's a complete overhaul. Logically it should be wound-LD related (if it kills anything roll LD test with negative modifier equal to the number of casualties, take difference in wounds, no armour saves...that's still horrible) but I don't know... you're pretty creative so channel some of that into DW's.
Marks:
Tzeentch mark has two properties. Why not everyone else?
Give Khorne +1 attack and +1 WS, strength maybe... or even furious charge.
Nurgle.. feel no pain and +1T, Slan...erm.. acute senses/+1attack and +1initiative?
Praxiss wrote:I'm thinking the FW Contemptor Dread was designed after reading your rules for the Magnate. /cackle.
Those were my thoughts too man!
Semper wrote:I enjoyed this fan dex immensely.
Here's my feedback/suggestions. BTW if you want 'credentials' then i've played CSM's for 10 years and have known three of their codex's off the top of my head. I've run three warhammer clubs and i'm merely 22! So I hope what I throw at you now will be food for thought at least, added or built upon at best. This will be a very long post, I warn you... I don't really do brief but I hope to give you some full feedback and you wrote a codex so I would hope you can take my mountain of words!
Thanks man, appreciate the kind words and feedback. Not to worry though; I'm rarely brief in what I type too, nor do I have any noteworthy credentials; but I choose to let my work speak for itself!
Regarding your - again, appreciated - feedback, I'll try to respond to it as best I can, but I admit, I don't completely agree with some of it as hopefully you'll understand.
Warband Icons.
Spoiler:
So... if I have two HQ's, one Nurgle and one Slaanesh I can take noise marines and plague marines? Now.. I think this is a little uncharacterful for the traitor legions and, if you'll allow me..falling into the trap of the loyalist 'Space Marines outright win' doctrine. You should, in my opinion... make the player designate the 'Chaos Lord', the leader, the army general. This is the head hancho. Now in general terms if he's culted (World Eaters for example) he get's no other marks. If you have a second HQ with a different Icon say Slan... then the army should be allowed 0-2, 0-3.. however many units with THAT Icon and it's rules. It doesn't obliterate your rules, merely limits them to be stricter to Chaos whilst keeping some options open... otherwise why not have all 7 troops choices... five KB squads and two plague marine squads backed up by three havoc death guard. It's only gonna happen in one situation as far as the fluff goes.. and that's if Abby is sitting at the front with Drach pointing forward. So you should make that a benefit of the Black Legion Icon or/and renegades that they don't impose the limitations if they're the general... the second Icon can be anything in all it's true glory.
My intentions here are to not restrict the player but allow them to have the Chaos army they want. Within reason.
I was hoping to refrain from limiting the player throughout and not forcing a theme upon them (even if they choose a specific warband Icon) as otherwise it's not so much their Chaos army or their World Eaters warband, but simply A Chaos army or A World Eaters warband.
Chaos may hate each other etc, but they'd ally to defeat a common enemy. Even so, with having to buy a HQ each etc. it's unlikely they will be able to have 2 complete armies working alongside each other, but rather one dominant force with allies from another. Chaos Space Marines are warbands and focus on what they gain, even if that's from working together.
Ultimately however, it's unlikely the player would have 2 full armies working together, let alone 2 full, fluff contradicting armies working together and my overall intention isn't to restrict the player but let them make the force that they'd like. Within reason...
OR have I got the wrong end of the stick and these Icons are not blanket rules... for example a World Eater Icon doesn't impose the Mark of Khorne? Even so.. the mark limitation is there... so I could have a World Eater Icon and not take the mark of khorne but still be subject to the Icons limitations that come from the implication I am taking the MoK (and rightly so! What self respecting chaos player would be WE's and not take it!). Are there no World Eater noise marines? Berserk Death Guard? There are sorcerous EC's and DG! You catch my drift...as crazy as it sounds, think about this angle. It's crazy, but this is CHAOS.... I whole heartedly think it's a fallacy but the general populance might like the idea of not type casting the legions to their traditional God's marks.
No, you don't HAVE to take anything other than the warband icon itself. Therefore World Eaters don't have to take MoK, but it's certainly beneficial to do so. So no, I'm not typecasting Legions to their typical god marks etc, but if you can find me a World Eaters warband dedicated to Nurgle, I'll give you a cookie. Again, I'm trying to prevent restrictions and allow options. Within reason...
All CSM Legions from the HH should have the 'Preferred Enemy: Loyalist Marines' in my opinion, but i'll leave that to you. Too powerful?
Too powerful IMHO.
It's also unfair on the Loyalists I'd say; they'd still hold a grudge from the HH (e.g. "You killed my primarch!") and I'd rather avoid giving such overwhelming odds against a single army by having a one-way benefit, let alone such a powerful one.
Special Rules.
Spoiler:
Add the following to Veteran Skills:
Scouts
Move Through Cover
Skilled Riders
(Love the 'No Mercy' rule btw)
I'm unsure who Skilled Riders would benfit or who would take Move Through Cover over some of the other special rules. Scouts sounds reasonable but it outclassed by infiltrate IMHO.
Special Characters:
Spoiler:
Abaddon - please. Dear GOD PLEASE. Get rid of the mastery issue with Drach'Nyen. This is Abaddon. Can I just remind you about him? This man singlehandedly united a horde of millions under HIS will to attack Cadia, several times. He's lead 13, yes, 13 crusades against the Imperium and the galaxy (Ghaz has lead two? Solar lead one? The EMPEROR lead two, one on earth, and the great crusade) This guy bested the C'tan, the Imperium and the Eldar to steal two of the black stone fortresses. He's got a ship that can blow planets up and has earned the favour of four of, if not THE most fickle and complicated beings in the entire 40k fluff individually and has turned down Daemonhood. Not to mention.... he's over 10,000 years old. I would hope, i'd pray for the sake of all things holy that I am not the only Chaos or warhammer player that see's this man having mastery issues over a Daemon that's allowed itself to be bound into a blade as being utterly ridiculous. Not to mention... I don't see Inquisitors in the GK codex having such an issue and their blades are in some cases equally as effective.
Finally he's got the heart of chaos. Whatever THAT is you might want to put something in there about that.... let's him re-roll his 4++ or gives him Psychic immunity or something akin.
If anyone thinks any of this makes Abaddon too powerful.. have a glance at the Swarm Lord or Draigo or the Saguanigor (however it's spelt) and tell me the biggest bad ass in all Chaos shouldn't actually be this bad ass for 280 smackers and apparently incapable of fighting any of the above without having to give his sword a 'time out' mid duel. It's embarrasing.
I'm aware of Abaddon's accomplished thanks...
Abaddon may well be that powerful but he still cannot control a Daemon; who can? Daemons are by their nature uncontrollable and rebellious. As I said earlier, "I remember a piece of fluff before where Abaddon basically duelled Eldrad Ulthran; he got Eldrad to the floor and was going to finish him off, but Eldrad managed to put the edge of his staff against his neck. The Daemon Sword was trying to get Eldrad and pulled Abaddon towards him; ultimately whilst bringing itself (and therefore Abaddon) closer to Eldrad, it was also pulling Abaddon onto Eldrads spear/staff. In the end, the Chaos Gods effectively plucked abaddon out of there as the sword would have ended up killing Abaddon. IIRC this was in a White Dwarf article before which would examine 'heroes and villains'."
This has always stuck in my mind and the effects of rebellion have been reduced for Abaddon; it can still rebel but it doesn't hurt him and he still has a Lightning claw to fall back on and at 5+D6 Str8 attacks, he gets a lot from the sword. The Swarmlord suffers from being a monstrous creature whilst the Sanguinor is unable to join squads. I might put some other buff in there but even in the current official Codex he's seen as a real bad-ass...
Ahriman - point reduction was greatly needed. He's still really expensive though. One strength 8+ hit and he's done with only a 50-50 chance. I'm talking any nob, warboss, power fist, las cannon, battle canon.. there are ton's of things. I'd be almost tempted to just make his save 3+ invul tbh... it very likely will be in the next codex anyway i've heard... there are so many of them floating about these days afterall... chaos should have at least one perhaps?
As for his psychic test. Don't make him auto pass. He knows his stuff does Ahriman but if Eldrad doesn't auto pass... I find it hard to accept even Ahriman would and he may be tzeentch but there are still three other gods worth of daemons that would have his head. I'd take a different angle on this.. make his psychic test immune to tampering. He always rolls 2D6, just the two, no matter what, and can only ever suffer a Perils on 2 or 12. No equipment (eldar stones) or special rules (shadow in the warp) can effect this in any way.
Raise his initiative to 6 or 7. Ahriman tricked the Eldar and has been hunting them for years. He's escaped powerful attacks, orchistrated genocieds, laid traps for GK's goddamit! He's faster and smarter than the average joe force commander!
Ahriman still has a 4++ to fall back upon however and this relies on the opponent getting past his retinue and managing to hit him in close combat with something that powerful. Kharn is still seen as a good character despite having a vulnerability to similar weapons, but Ahriman has a 4++ too, as well as typically not being a close combat character.
As for expensive; I tried to compare him to Njal, whose seen as very good character at a similar level. Njal has a 2+ save, WTN, Psychic hood (but better), Lord of Tempests and a Chooser of the Slain. Whereas Ahriman has an extra wound, can cast an extra power and automatically casts. On top of this, he has the benefits of a Sorcerers Tome also. If anything, Ahriman should cost more. He could potentially put out 2 Doom Bolts and Chaos Theory in one turn, re-rolling to hit rolls!
I will however think about what you said regarding not auto-passing although he is favoured by a Sorcerer god and isn't exactly lacking in psychic ability IMHO.
Kharn - Awesome. Put his 'hit everything on 2+ because i'm a betraying nails man with a big axe' rule back though.
Glad you like him; however I don't intend to add the 2+ hitting; he's still WS7 and packs a shed load of attacks. For a small increase in cost he's gained Eternal Warrior and potentially a shed-load of attacks. I'd imagine with all those extra attacks he'd kill more than he would with the 2+ hitting whilst he wouldn't hit a WS10 God of War (Avatar) on a 2+...
Typhus - is monstrous! I've got mixed feelings about him tbh. 5 insta death power weapon attacks on the charge is fairly horrible...imagine him vs nids? "Watch my Hive Tyrant go! Oh wait....you hit and wounded me with one attack. My Trygon will handle it... oh... no.. wait a tick... nope, you hit and wounded with a single attack again." I'd consider, but not necessarily reduce his attacks to 3 or his initiative to 4. Maybe even change the blades effects. Power Weapon that does D3 wounds every turn after at least a single wound is inflicted and is poisoned (2/3+).
Those are fair points. I've changed him to Initiative 4 and the Weapon is now a force weapon rather than inflicts auto-instant-death...
For Org Chart:
Spoiler:
HQ's
Lords - seperate them. Give us a Dreadlord, Chaos Lord and a Captain. Dreadlords are like Abby. They're Uber 10k year old monsters. Give them like an extra pt of Initiative and let the person choose WS or BS for the other and throw on an extra 15/20pts. Chaos Lords as shown, equal of their loyalist counter parts and Captains a token 2 wound lesser HQ. We all loved the lieut from the awesome 3rd edit.
I originally had a Captain option within the Codex, however - like the WGBL - people rarely took him and I can understand why. Ultimately, I dropped him and kept it as just the lord; they are still bad-ass machines, but they can also be cheap if the player chooses them to be. They actually have marginally better stats than a Chapter Master too... Think about it like this; I've gone for the average/median of the 3 Lords you suggested.
DP's - +25pts for a single point of toughness? REALLY? He's only like 30pts off the Avatar you know and in that 30pts you've got to cover initiative, WS, BS and Invul save differences to just make the stat line equal, we'll forget the wailing doom, immunity to flamers, plasma and melta and aura of inspiration. I reckon the extra 5pts (as you said in 'why') isn't necessary, 130pts is still an investment for the basic guy as he's not THAT durable even with T6 and 5++.
I've debated Daemon Prices before and honestly, I'm happy with them as they are. Would you still take them? (I would)
They are effectively immune to small arms for all intents and purposes; they can easily hide behind other models, they can have impressive manoeuvrability and even more impressive hitting power as well as increased durability. I've stated my intentions for them within the 'why' section and personally I feel I've fulfilled that.
Sorcerer - 110pts for two wounds? Are you joking? He cost's that now and you get 3! You need to do something with that I reckon. Split sorcerers up like the loyalist's get the two types of Librarians for example.
No, it's 110pts for two wounds, but two psychic powers also. The current librarian has to pay for his. This guy is on par to Rune Priests and existing Librarians, yet he has a BS5 and In5. Rune Priests and Librarians are the standard choices; the extra 10pts reflects the stats and helps add another level of not must-have to him.
Elites:
Posessed - they don't shoot guns anymore? They're not mindless/stupid you know, just posessed and crazed, pulling a trigger is suprisingly easy even if you're manic. XD
Do they shoot guns at the moment? Do they really need to be able to shoot guns? Do they wield guns on their models? Do they have guns specially designed to have triggers that can be pulled by a claw or a stump, rather than a hand?
Chosen - let us take as many chosen champs as we want. They're chosen... not veterans. Theoretically a bucket load of CSM's are mere veterans.
They're better than the standard veteran. Furthermore, I imagine few people would spend the extra points for them to be Champions considering they're still only as tough as your average MeQ. Personally, I feel they have plenty of options as it is and are already superior abilties to your average veteran...
Cypher - ace.
Fabius - agree with his positioning but i'd give him a regen factor carbon copy of the Tyranids (roll end of every turn one D6 for missing wounds and get them back on roll of 6). Otherwise dandy.
Cheers.
Sorcerers Coven - give them BS 5, not WS. They're sorcerers, not maulers unless the WS advantage is a combat deficite mitigation but i'd have thought a power weapon wielding space marine that shoots magic would be enough for most.... Make them 0-1 unit or limited to one unit per HQ with the mark of Tzeentch. Why even limit them to TS's for that matter? Good fluff I suppose either way!
They originally were BS5, but combined with their shooting abilities that was deemed to be too much, and understandably so.
Troops:
Why does my unit of CSM's have to have 10men for a heavy weapon? I never understood this rule at all.....i'd give the abilty to upgrade a squad to Heresy Veterans at like +2pts a model in which case they get the veterans rule.
Game balance basically.
I have opted to keep them representative of your average traitor astartes who even after all these years typically have similar abilities to their loyalist brethren. Furthermore this keeps the difference between them and the Chosen and Cult units whilst very viable choices.
KB's - Yeap good. No Mercy?
No Plague Zombies or mutants?
Naw, I feel 'Zerkers and Rubric Marines are close to being overpowered as it is, whilst No Mercy remains a Slaanesh-only thing...
Fast Attack
Bikes - hit and run over. Oh how I lol'd at the brilliance.
I must admit, that was one of my highlights when I made this.
Raptors - used to be like vampiric nightmares almost. They struck fear and gave like -1LD. Potentially room for improvement, but really they're alright! Still just glorified assault marines though.
I can understand what you're saying, but I didn't want to add too many unit-specific rules whilst they are still a viable choice and better than your average assault marine; being able to take marks and power weapons should mean they are capable of inflicting some real CC hurt IMHO.
I'll definitely consider Daemonic Vision as an option however.
Chaos Spawn - needs to be more expensive. 4 wounds, invul save, potential assault range of 24"....cut that down (even with a 1/36 chance of it doing nothing, that's still only likely a single turn according to the odds). 15 of them at 450pts. That's 15 T5, 4W monsters with potentially 7 attacks each, S6 and an average assault arch of 18"...... Just make it fleet and rending or poisoned with D3+1 wounds for 30pts... that'd be an interesting unit, hell i'd use it for some fun!
I'd imagine fleet & rending for 30pts is even better than they are at the moment.
You raise a good point about their price however, I'll see if I can think of a way to change that. It's worth bearing in mind people have criticised them when they weren't fleet or not beasts etc. so it's a difficult balancing act for me...
Heavy Support:
Oblits: Think about toughness 5. They're not invincible even with 2+ armour and 5+ invul but with T4 they're really easy to kill i've found, especially with a wave serpents twin linked bright lance or hive guard. It's just 'boom' insta death every time and 5+ isn't good enough to stop it.
I can understand what you're saying, but the existing Obliterator unit is very well respected (and then some), whilst their range and firepower can keep them out of harms way typically, as well as having 2 wounds to fall back upon. I've consider T4(5) before but ultimately I decided they are fine as they are IMHO.
Defiler: The mark of khorne should cost something. Mark of Nurgle should probably cost a little more..
The Mark of Khorne sacrifices effectively all ranged attacks; therefore making it a very large model that has to run up the board; no more tough than a standard dreadnought. They would've been very susceptible to immobilised results also; hence the special rule. I can understand what you're saying, but I would personally have the ranged ability over extra CC ability almost any day for a Defiler...
Regarding the Nurgle, the Vomit Cannon is more specialised than the battlecannon, so the only thing you're effectively benefitting from is the FA13, which I've costed at around 15pts IMHO.
Daemons:
Lesser and Greater. I thought the idea was brilliant actually. Giving them the option to take marks which made them way beefy, but not as good as true forms was awesome. I'd give the greater daemons the option to take wings for like +20pts and give the khorne GD either the ability to nullify spells on a 4+ within 12" or summit OR a 3+ save.
Nurgle GD should have lower initiative probably and Tzeentch GD definitely shouldn't be lower then 5.
thanks man, I really appreciate that.
I've explained the lack of wings in the 'why' section which is ultimately for game balance reasons. The ability to nullify spells for the MoK is a good idea however, I've been looking to improve him and that could be it!
I'll definitely consider the Initiative on the MoN, but for Tzeentch it's simply for game balance, but I may raise it back to 5.
Weapons:
Blastmaster? Why change it at all? I didn't see it in your 'why' section. The blast, strength 8, ap 3 single frequency is one of the current weapons in C:CSM's that is actually unique to chaos and pretty good.
The single frequency option is currently the only option people use in it however and IMHO this isn't worth 40pts. It should be chaotic now, but is viable in both variants hopefully as well as being more of a dedicated anti-infantry weapon. I wouldn't think it's not unique to Chaos now...
Ether Cannon vs Lascannon? Why bother? You should do something with Ether Cannon like reduce it's strength (8, 7) but give it a +3D6 armour pen or able to ignore invul saves as well... I don't know.. be chaotically creative.
It simply improves its anti-tank ability quite neatly; it's not an amazing change I admit; but with BS4 and a battlecannon that's some serious firepower IMHO; it even downed a monolith in a bat-rep!
Daemon Weapons: You've lessened the negatives so to speak but still why would I bother taking one? High point cost and a likeliness i'm going to do at least one wound to myself a battle. Meh. The very original Daemon weapons where you rolled a one to wound or hit and it ended up being resolved against you (with the LD) seemed more like playable rules. You could save the hit and there were still mastery rules. Personally i'd give the DW's a complete overhaul. Logically it should be wound-LD related (if it kills anything roll LD test with negative modifier equal to the number of casualties, take difference in wounds, no armour saves...that's still horrible) but I don't know... you're pretty creative so channel some of that into DW's.
I've heard someone else state Daemon Weapons (mine or otherwise) to be horrible, but personally I don't see it.
For 40pts you get Power Weapon (15pts), +2 Strength or better (15+pts) and D6 attacks (15+pts), but there is a 1-in-6 chance to hurt yourself. I'm not so sure what's bad about them? I'd certainly still take them and they're better than their current versions whilst being no more expensive...
Marks:
Tzeentch mark has two properties. Why not everyone else?
Give Khorne +1 attack and +1 WS, strength maybe... or even furious charge.
Nurgle.. feel no pain and +1T, Slan...erm.. acute senses/+1attack and +1initiative?
I wouldn't really say the MoT has 2 properties; it's just an invulnerable save bonus either way...
Regarding improved marks, I feel this threatens the distinctions of the cult units and causes the Mark price to sky rocket. I also believe this increases complication and makes no mark or MoCU less viable IMHO.
As ever, all feedback (constructive) is appreciated. Cheers.
Saguanigor. I laughed heartily.
I also wonder about the ether cannon. It seems to me to be just a different word for a lascannon, and I feel like giving a defiler that now has BS4 and cant be stunned or shaken an Ether cannon or two is a little OP. I didnt mind it in that game (where it took 3 turns to take out said monolith, because my friend cant hit worth a damn) but I can see where it would get annoying really fast to have a BETTER lascannon, already the second best armor popper from range. (second to lance weapons, ofc)
ZephyrRey wrote:Saguanigor. I laughed heartily.
I also wonder about the ether cannon. It seems to me to be just a different word for a lascannon, and I feel like giving a defiler that now has BS4 and cant be stunned or shaken an Ether cannon or two is a little OP. I didnt mind it in that game (where it took 3 turns to take out said monolith, because my friend cant hit worth a damn) but I can see where it would get annoying really fast to have a BETTER lascannon, already the second best armor popper from range. (second to lance weapons, ofc)
I'm not entirely sure what the problem with the ether cannon is here, if someone could really point it out for me!
- It's too similar to a Lascannon?
- It's too powerful?
Or both?
Regarding the Deciever potentially being OP, I can understand that worry and I too have shared it, but it is also on a 180pts, AV12, LARGE platform which makes it a very tasty - and fairly vulnerable - target too.
The ether cannon was intended to be moderately more powerful than a lascannon and to cement the Deciever as a shooty anti-tank Defiler, which IMHO it has. I always welcome feedback as always however and I would like to know precisely what the criticism is?
------
In other news, I think I've decided on what 'dex I'll do next. More on this another time...
Hello Just Dave, I've been playing your codex for a few games now when a question came up regarding terminator armor. Your codex does not list terminator armor as an armory item so two things came up: 1) This allows people to say the upgrade to 'terminator armor' (in the chaos lords entry for example) does not improve their armor save, and that 2) without an entry listing rules for terminator armor are your codex's terminators allowed to sweeping advance?
Number 1 is of course a just silly raw lawyer'ing, but I had hoped you could respond back about #2 so I can play it correctly in upcoming games. Thanks a bunch for the huge amount of work you've put into this, it really shows! I'm having a blast using your codex and use it every game I can now instead of the official csm dex.
Also the last note, the dreadnaught magnate's unyielding rule seems really strong in low point games (sub 1k) where most armies lack the weapon saturation to put up multiple glances/pens each turn.
Cheers Viper, much appreciated man. How have you found your games then?
Can't believe I forgot Power and Terminator Armour; I'm sure I'd included them. Nonetheless, as you expect, yeah they do all the usual: 3+ for the former & 2+5++, relentless, deepstrike but no sweeping advance for Terminator Armour.
I wish it was as Alf' said and intentional, but admittedly, it wasn't. I may not include for that reason, however, but I may also not be able to fit it in the existing space; I'll try though!
Thanks a lot for the kind words too Viper. Much appreciated.
-----
Bear in mind that my next Codex (below) is going to take me a while to do; I haven't started writing it. Yet.
Just Dave wrote:I'm just going to leave this here...
Wooly asked me a similar question before IIRC. Whilst I check up on it every now and then to see what people feel need changing and some peoples ideas, I honestly don't agree with much of what is said in that thread. I appreciate the work gone into it and I respect all yours choices to do it, but I simply don't believe it's something I agree with for the most-part, Vypers with wounds, Dedicated Falcons, Str5 Avenger Catapults etc. are examples. That and how longs it's taking! As I said, I don't mean to offend and it's not necessarily wrong, but it's simply not something I could work with, although as I said, I check on it every now and then...
One criticism though, Ive not read the official rules, are the points and stats for SCs roughly the same?
They seem undercosted to me. I was just comparing the stats for them with the ones from Codex SM and they seem OP.
Lucius for example is what? 180 points? Him and Kharn are both far cheaper than the SCs in C:SM and it sounds like they would rape their faces without taking a wound!
mattyrm wrote:
Lucius for example is what? 180 points? Him and Kharn are both far cheaper than the SCs in C:SM and it sounds like they would rape their faces without taking a wound!
You cannot just compare their "raw" martial prowess. The SM special characters may be less powerful single-handedly, but it's the abilities they grant to their units that make them deadly.
Sure, Khârn will butcher Vulkan He'stan almost every single time, but while the Khornate warrior will be busy slaughtering his foe, the rest of his army will be shred to pieces by master-crafted Thunder Hammers, and twin-linked Meltaguns & Multimeltas!!
mattyrm wrote:
Lucius for example is what? 180 points? Him and Kharn are both far cheaper than the SCs in C:SM and it sounds like they would rape their faces without taking a wound!
You cannot just compare their "raw" martial prowess. The SM special characters may be less powerful single-handedly, but it's the abilities they grant to their units that make them deadly.
Sure, Khârn will butcher Vulkan He'stan almost every single time, but while the Khornate warrior will be busy slaughtering his foe, the rest of his army will be shred to pieces by master-crafted Thunder Hammers, and twin-linked Meltaguns & Multimeltas!!
^ Have to agree with this. For what they bring to the table, they are cost most appropriately.
Thanks for the compliments guys, really appreciated, particularly coming from you! Seriously thanks - that includes you and your feedback Matty!
As Yggs and jp said, unlike Space Marine characters, few Chaos characters are force multipliers - which hopefully represents their selfish and egotistical nature - so add little benefit to the rest of the army. It's worth pointing out that some of these SM characters are tough Cookies too, such as Lysander and Vulkan both being force multipliers and possessing a 3++ and Str6 power weapon at worst. So many Chaos characters don't have the same durability that their loyalist counterparts may...
Thanks again for the feedback, it's all welcome. Work on the next 'dex has well and truly started too.
Just Dave wrote:Thanks for the compliments guys, really appreciated, particularly coming from you! Seriously thanks - that includes you and your feedback Matty!
As Yggs and jp said, unlike Space Marine characters, few Chaos characters are force multipliers - which hopefully represents their selfish and egotistical nature - so add little benefit to the rest of the army. It's worth pointing out that some of these SM characters are tough Cookies too, such as Lysander and Vulkan both being force multipliers and possessing a 3++ and Str6 power weapon at worst. So many Chaos characters don't have the same durability that their loyalist counterparts may...
Thanks again for the feedback, it's all welcome. Work on the next 'dex has well and truly started too.
Oh yeah, I didnt think about that. As I said I dont play chaos..
The force multipliers of the SCs in the dex do indeed make sense, and the traitors are better individually but do less for the army..
The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.
Changes include: - Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU - Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.
Just Dave wrote: The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.
Changes include: - Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU - Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.
Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.
As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!
Hey, glad to see that... Still sad about the "favoured number" heretics though, but this is more than expected lol!!
Just Dave wrote: The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.
Changes include: - Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU - Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.
Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.
As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!
Hey, glad to see that... Still sad about the "favoured number" heretics though, but this is more than expected lol!!
Thanks again, and good luck on that new codex!
You got pretty much every other request added; make do with what you get man!
Just Dave wrote: The Codex has been updated (V2.4), again, this may be the final version.
Changes include: - Terminator Champion Units may now number 5 or more Terminator Champions and select Gifts of Chaos, which have been increased in price slightly in most cases.
- Raptors may take Daemonic Visage.
- Grenade Launchers and Plasma Guns are now 10pts in most cases, in order to make them a viable alternative to meltaguns (hopefully). Plague Marines & Chosen still pay 15pts for the latter however, due to FNP and quantity respectively.
- Chaos Spawn unit size is a maximum of 3.
- Armoury now includes the rules for Terminator and Power Armour.
- Sorcerers may take MoCU - Greater Daemon with MoK has been buffed slightly.
Obviously, this is attached in the opening post.
As ever, all feedback is welcome. Cheers!
Hey, glad to see that... Still sad about the "favoured number" heretics though, but this is more than expected lol!!
Thanks again, and good luck on that new codex!
You got pretty much every other request added; make do with what you get man!
Hey, but you didn't ask for priorities lol (not that I gave you some, ok)!!!
I'd gladly swap the Chaos Spawn squad size & MoKGD buff for a 7-strong Nurgle Heretics squads!
An article has been created for this Codex, as it is inevitably (and already) going to tumble down the Proposed Rules forum into obscurity, so it can always be found from the Articles section.
So he gain the same rule as one of the SW sagas,wich is nice,but on the counter part he lost his ability to Hit on a 2+,BUT he still retain his Betrayer rule...
I dunno,...seems weird to me,the Betrayer rule was there as a bad excuse to justify the fact that he Hit on 2+,so if he Loose his 2+ to Hit,why still letting him with the Betrayer Rule?
Personnaly i din't had any problems with this rule,the only thing that bothered me is that he lost his Eternal Warrior status,because you see it countless times in the fluff, where he dies to only rise again only angryer then before.
Also where are the Khorne's Axes?,and Collars?
Besides that love how you threated this.
Specially the Lesser Deamons!,its even impossible to understand why Gavin & Allesio din't do something similar from the start,it was only a few lines to add to the Lesserr deamons Page...
Slayer le boucher wrote:A thing i've noticed about Kharn.
So he gain the same rule as one of the SW sagas,wich is nice,but on the counter part he lost his ability to Hit on a 2+,BUT he still retain his Betrayer rule...
I dunno,...seems weird to me,the Betrayer rule was there as a bad excuse to justify the fact that he Hit on 2+,so if he Loose his 2+ to Hit,why still letting him with the Betrayer Rule?
Personnaly i din't had any problems with this rule,the only thing that bothered me is that he lost his Eternal Warrior status,because you see it countless times in the fluff, where he dies to only rise again only angryer then before.
Also where are the Khorne's Axes?,and Collars?
Besides that love how you threated this.
Specially the Lesser Deamons!,its even impossible to understand why Gavin & Allesio din't do something similar from the start,it was only a few lines to add to the Lesserr deamons Page...
Hey man, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I really appreciate the kind words. Cheers!
Personally, i felt Saga of the Warrior Born suits him more; his martial skill is represented by the WS7 whilst Saga can show his raw killing power and bloodlust, as well as the power of Khorne, I felt it's much more characterful whilst I also felt he shouldn't be hitting Avatars on a 2+.
Doing basic/rough maths, his current rules, on the charge v.s Space Marines would:
7 attacks, 5.833' hit, 4.8611' wounds. Therefore, 4.9 (rounding up) Space Marines die.
Doing basic/rough maths, my rules for Kharne, on the charge v.s. Space Marines would:
7 attacks, 4.66' hit, 3.88' wound, with re-rolling one's, 4.537 wound. Therefore, rounding down, 4.5 Space Marines die.
This change in rules means that the hitting power you lose (in this case) is less than 0.4 Space Marines, instead of which you gain eternal warrior, re-rolling 1's and Saga of the Warrior born.
For reference, in the following phase, with his additional attacks, my Kharn would then kill approximately 7.4 Space Marines...
Hopefully you'll agree, it's not a major loss whilst he gains a lot.
Regarding Betrayer, again it suits him and it's existing in his profile before the new Codex IIRC. I think it's a reasonable way to represent his betraying nature, whilst (with eternal warrior) you can afford to send him off on his own/without a squad more than you could before.
Regarding Khorne specific options (and other god specific options that may be lacking), I felt there is plenty that can be used to design a character/model in whichever way you want and to a certain theme, e.g. hitty/Khorne. There are also a LOT more options here than most individual characters, such as Space Marine Captains. That's one of the things I aimed to achieve with this Codex, to bridge the gap between the 3.5 Codex (which IMHO had too many options/complexity) and the 4th edition Codex (which was too simplified IMHO).
Thanks again for the feedback Slayer, much appreciated, hopefully you can understand my perspective now.
Ok so I'm CSM and I want to use a khorne chaos lord with juggy and bloodfeeder, according to what I've read in the codex this would give him max 17 attacks. WICKED! However my friend, who wants to rain on my parade, pointed out that no characteristic may be above 10. I wanna know what the ruling is for this because from my experience if a characteristic cannot be over 10 it would have said A4+2d6 to a max of ten. So is the chaos lord combo as cool as I think it is or what?
The rules are that a characteristic cannot be above 10 as standard, but attacks for example can be increased above 10 by wargear, so yes, he could take full advantage of those 12 extra attacks.
Just Dave wrote:The rules are that a characteristic cannot be above 10 as standard, but attacks for example can be increased above 10 by wargear, so yes, he could take full advantage of those 12 extra attacks.
Hopefully that makes sense? Cheers!
Thanks that makes perfect sences and i have no idea why i didn't know that already. i can't wait to chop him to bits this weekend
Just got finished printing out the codex. I started bulding a chaos army from the bitz box 2 weeks ago with the intention of using a BA codex that i dont use. That codex is going on the shelf and being swapped for yours. This new codex is EXACTLY how I imagined CSM should be. Very nicely done. I plan on geting a few casual games in with it soon. I also put a link of it on my thread:
Just Dave wrote:The rules are that a characteristic cannot be above 10 as standard, but attacks for example can be increased above 10 by wargear, so yes, he could take full advantage of those 12 extra attacks.
Hopefully that makes sense? Cheers!
Thanks that makes perfect sences and i have no idea why i didn't know that already. i can't wait to chop him to bits this weekend
Pretty sure there's been that question asked in YMDC several times, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Good luck, skulls for the skull throne and all that crap!
Strombones wrote:Just got finished printing out the codex. I started bulding a chaos army from the bitz box 2 weeks ago with the intention of using a BA codex that i dont use. That codex is going on the shelf and being swapped for yours. This new codex is EXACTLY how I imagined CSM should be. Very nicely done. I plan on geting a few casual games in with it soon. I also put a link of it on my thread:
Ill def be posting on how the new codex is influencing the project.
Once again, very nice work.
Wow. Thanks a lot man. Seriously, that's a huge compliment, so thanks. The project looks great, never seen Skaven Marines before and they look really cool. Loving the very-Nurgle greenstuff too. I've just subscribed to that thread, so I'll be watching as it progresses!
If I may be so bold, if you make it known in your title of your thread that you're doing Nurgle/Space Skaven Chaos Marines, then you'd probably get more views I'd imagine, just a suggestion.
Loved this bit btw: "Also, that is an RPG that I am going to play as a missle launcher 24" assault 1 no matter what anybody says"; surely it could now be a 'Grenade Launcher'? That RPG does look great though, seriously nice conversion there; I really look forward to seeing how that unit turns out.
Thanks again man, I'll be watching your thread with delight. Cheers!
yeah the grenade launcher fits the bill to a tee and the grey knight psilencer is going to make an excellent warp cannon after a few touches.
I am however becoming a bit skeptical that my friends are going to let me get away with making an entire squad of Terminators T5 for just 25 points. Im guessing they are 30 pts because of the lack of storm bolter and power fist?
I think an extra point of toughness is a lot better than most people think. Maybe the mark of Nurgle could come with +1T AND slow and purposeful to balance it?
Maybe you would have to pay for the mark per model instead of for the whole unit? or maybe it should just be more expensive?
Also the Power of chaos , which happens to be my favorite and most Chaos appropriate, seems pretty strong. People get pretty sensitive about remove from play powers and being able to do it on a 4+ might cause some fuss, especially when it generates a free S6 T5 4 wound creature
Though I do understand it is limited to 6" which is good.
Maybe you would have to roll higher than T only? Maybe a perils of the Warp would result in turning the caster into a spawn? or removing the caster from play? doubles removes the caster from play? or target can get invul saves so idependent characters are less vulnerable? My friend Dave would be pretty pissed if I could remove his archon form the board on a 3+. I on the other hand would find it hilarious.
These are ofcourse rather nit picky things when you compare this codex to Space Wolves or IG.
They are also just opinions on things that would perhaps be looked apon skeptically in my particular gaming group.
Other than that...
1.I strongly agree with your desicion to leave razorbacks and droppods to codex marines.
2.An open top assault style rhino conversion is going to make my day. I always wanted to make something similar to the forge world death corps of krieg centaur. now I can. though i think it should be a hair more expensive than +15 pts. assault vehicles are pretty valuable.
3. Im striving to be the first to make a Land Raider Marauder
4. The heretics! why does the GW codex not have heretics!? Ive been saying this for years.
You obviously seem to have the math worked out pretty well. Ive been pouring over this for the past few hours and am starting to believe that GW couldnt have done better themselves. The freedom of creativity while mainting a logical balance is impressive.
I love the sound of your Warp Cannon; if it's anything like the RPG it'll look awesome too!
I understand what you're saying about the MoN man, I may up it to 30pts in retrospect, but there's balance behind the MoN in that all it does is make your Termies more resistant to small arms, which (thanks to 2+) they are already pretty resistant against; Lascannons, Melta's, Plasma's, Power Weapons and all that will still drop them with ease, but I can see what you're saying. Also bear in mind that an entire squad would be 300pts before upgrades, which is a considerable investment for 10 models.
But yes, 30pts is that a Power Fist is usually 10pts extra, which they don't have. Space Wolf termies are 33pts, whilst ze old CSM termies were 30pts also.
The Power of Chaos is no different from it's current incarnation, except that it works on a roll equal-to or higher (and it has a different name). In the current Codex, it's still not really a well rated power hence my slight improvement. I did originally have it causing instant-death (therefore EW etc. won't be affected) and I may yet take it back to that, as it has benefitted from the boost to spawn.
Regarding the open-topped, it's a 15pts upgrade that whilst it does make it an assault vehicle, also makes it more vulnerable. For an 11/10/10 transport, this isn't good and if an autocannon gets it in its sights, then... I agree that it could be powerful, but it's not without its flaws, particularly with the inherent cost of the unit inside.
I'll definitely think about Power of Chaos and the MoN termies though, they're both good points.
Thanks again for the kind words man, particularly "freedom of creativity while mainting a logical balance is impressive" as that was one of my main intentions here. Cheers buddy and I look forward to more conversions!
Hey there. What a great codex! Basically, this is everything the current codex should have been, but isn't. Really fine job. I've been playing Chaos since the Rogue Trader days and this one really hits the mark. Of course, nothing quite comes to the level of the old LatD/StD days, but, well, the overall game rules were a tad flawed back then, so there is no really going back (though I'm working on it with some fan rules of my own via corrupting the Necromunda rules, but that is another story). Anyway, really well done. Best fan dex I've seen posted.
You asked for some feedback, so here's a bit of mine. I'm still reading thru it, some more likely to follow. I've always been a Thousand Sons fan, so most of my initial comments will reflect that.
I dislike the way you used the current Mark of Tzeentch pretty much wholesale -- even confusingly keeping the fact that it allows multiple pychic powers to be used, but does not save so under the explanation of the Mark itself -- only elsewhere. There are a couple other ways in your codex to allow multiple powers to be used a turn (and I am not opposed to this, on the contrary), but I think you would be better served to adopt the Psyker Master Leveles rules from the Grey Knights codex. These rules are basically a streamlining of what the Mark of Tzeentch was intending in this regards, but more elegant. Plus, the writing is on the wall. This IS how GW will be implementing this sorta thing going forward (write me down for saying so right now), so I'm sure the rule will be added in the 6th edition core rules to prepare the way for powerful psykers coming down the pike (Eldar, Thousand Sons, etc.).
The Sorcerer Warcoven has a few wonky things going on. I think their ability to modify enemy Psykers is a tad too powerful. If I have 9, that's +9 to their roll?!? Ummm... I think too much. I'd say a flat +2 to the roll would be fine, or just give them Warp Masks (but that feels like a cop out). How about +1 for every sorcerer up to a maximum of +3? That seems more reasonable. Secondly, Warp Flare reads a bit weird. Again, its dependant upon the number of the unit, and just seems too powerful unless it is supposed to override the ability of the other sorcerers to use any other powers. Just seems too powerful. Also, the sorcerers MAY select a single power? That feels wrong. If they don't have a psychic power, they should not be in the warcoven. Hey, who asked THAT guy to be in the coven?? Naahh. My suggestion? Give the warcoven the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and the Warp Flare power standard. If they use the Warp Flare, that's all they do. If not, they cast individually as you laid out. Gives them flexibilty and reflects that they each see themselves as a unique, selfish sorcerer, and so are not Grey Knights. Of course, this may need you to cost the unit higher. By the way, the tomes and their effects are awesome, great work there (and Ahriman gets them all. Sweet! What a way to show he really is the most potent sorcerer in the Galaxy (save maybe Magnus, who won't come out to play) without making it overpowering)).
Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.
Things I Love!
The Warband rules. I like. Feels true.
Warp Mask. Just awesome. Fits perfect, not too powerful and just feels really right.
Sorcerer Warcoven ... I love the imagry and I've been waiting a long time for its return.
Chaos Spawn! Now there's something to be feared and finally worth the points.
Ability to Mark stuff! Tears of joy!
Ahriman. See the comments above. And consider this... Only level 3 psyker in the galixy for the win?!?
No Mercy rule. Nice, elegant, not overpowered. Perfect.
All is Dust and the Sorcerer Commands rules. Very Nice. I know you struggled early on with the All is Dust rule, but I think you really nailed in down here.
Again, well done. In fact, I became a member of this site, instead of just lurking all the time, just so I could comment on it. I know you are trying to finish this project up, but it could use a final editing. I happen to have a degree in English and have edited in the gaming industry before, so I would be happy to do so if you'd like. Just initially reading it thru, I think most of my issues/confusion come from that edit being needed. For example, the Rubric marines get Relentless from the All is Dust power, but they already have it. Also, the Khorne Daemon weapon grants an additional d6 attacks that do not attack the owner on a roll of 1, though I presume they don't happen either if the original d6 roll is a 1 (as is stated for all daemon weapons). The wording is a bit unclear.
Anyway, that's all from me for now. Wow, how's that for a first post?
Kazzigum wrote:
Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.
I made this observation to Dave as well, that Lucius should have Eternal Warrior as he is the Chosen of Slaanesh, not due to the abilities of his armour. The current incarnation in the existing codex might be a little extreme, so I made the suggestion of possible treating it like defensive grenades are maybe a -1(I) if I recall.
Kazzigum wrote:
Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.
I made this observation to Dave as well, that Lucius should have Eternal Warrior as he is the Chosen of Slaanesh, not due to the abilities of his armour. The current incarnation in the existing codex might be a little extreme, so I made the suggestion of possible treating it like defensive grenades are maybe a -1(I) if I recall.
Personally, I'd like to see something more along the lines of Saint Celestine's Miraculous Intervention. Say, something like, if Lucious is slain, then each turn the slayer must make a Toughness check. If failed, he is removed from play and replaced by Lucious with one wound. If the slayer is a member of a unit when this happens, Lucious is placed in hand to hand combat with said unit. Will this come up very often? Probably not, but when it does, it will be cool and so, so evocative of the background material. Please keep in mind that's just a rough draft idea -- were I to put the rule to paper, I would refine it and clean the wording up. I'm not really convinced that he should have Eternal Warrior. I could go either way. But the armour should definitely be something like what I laid out above.
Anyway, just my idea.
Hey, how cool would it be if Lucious returned to the field this way after possessing Saint Celestine? Ahhh, I can think of nothing that would please Slaanesh more...
OK, starting to collect the bits for a build of the Marauder. Just wanted to confirm with JustDave to see if these bitx match what he had in mind....
Marauder Cannon:
I'm thinking of using the barrel and bits from a GK terminator Psilencer mounted on the sponson turret from a Baneblade. This assembly would then be mounted where the hull H.Bolter normally is (assuming it fits)
H.Bolter sponsons:
The best (and cheapest) fit i can find so far online is to buy a couple of the TL H.Bolter off the Ravenwing Speeder. That way it is a Tl bolter with a built in ammo feed as well. The main problem with this the only site that have any at all only have 1 set....annoying. Also it is proving expensive to find a spare set of predator or Land Raider sponsons to use.
Kazzigum wrote:Hey there. What a great codex! Basically, this is everything the current codex should have been, but isn't. Really fine job. I've been playing Chaos since the Rogue Trader days and this one really hits the mark. Of course, nothing quite comes to the level of the old LatD/StD days, but, well, the overall game rules were a tad flawed back then, so there is no really going back (though I'm working on it with some fan rules of my own via corrupting the Necromunda rules, but that is another story). Anyway, really well done. Best fan dex I've seen posted.
You asked for some feedback, so here's a bit of mine. I'm still reading thru it, some more likely to follow. I've always been a Thousand Sons fan, so most of my initial comments will reflect that.
Thanks man. Seriously, I really appreciate kind comments like this; makes it worth doing. Cheers man.
Thanks for the feedback too; it's appreciated and I'm definitely willing to listen to it as you phrased it politely, reasonably and included positive feedback also!
I dislike the way you used the current Mark of Tzeentch pretty much wholesale -- even confusingly keeping the fact that it allows multiple pychic powers to be used, but does not save so under the explanation of the Mark itself -- only elsewhere. There are a couple other ways in your codex to allow multiple powers to be used a turn (and I am not opposed to this, on the contrary), but I think you would be better served to adopt the Psyker Master Leveles rules from the Grey Knights codex. These rules are basically a streamlining of what the Mark of Tzeentch was intending in this regards, but more elegant. Plus, the writing is on the wall. This IS how GW will be implementing this sorta thing going forward (write me down for saying so right now), so I'm sure the rule will be added in the 6th edition core rules to prepare the way for powerful psykers coming down the pike (Eldar, Thousand Sons, etc.).
I don't know what the problem is with the basic mark of Tzeentch (5+ invulnerable save), it provides a clear bonus and suits Tzeentch, the only problem with it I find is it's limited application (being an invulnerable save), but I try to counter that by not costing it like many invulnerable saves are and I price it according to the units role (e.g. more for Possessed, much less for Heretics).
Regarding the Psyker Mastery levels, I wasn't sure about that, most of all because I'm not experienced with the Grey Knights Codex (not least because I don't own it), but also because it's only been implemented in the Grey Knights Codex. As you said - and wouldn't surprise me - it may become much more widespread, but then again it may not. If you could provide me more information about the psychic mastery levels, that would be GREAT.
I agree, it's definitely more elegant and simplified than the MoT as-it-is. However, I don't think the mark of tzeentch is exactly complicated either and many codices use the same system without issue. It'd be a improvement (probably), but I don't think it's necessary either... You've definitely piqued my interest however.
The Sorcerer Warcoven has a few wonky things going on. I think their ability to modify enemy Psykers is a tad too powerful. If I have 9, that's +9 to their roll?!? Ummm... I think too much. I'd say a flat +2 to the roll would be fine, or just give them Warp Masks (but that feels like a cop out). How about +1 for every sorcerer up to a maximum of +3? That seems more reasonable. Secondly, Warp Flare reads a bit weird. Again, its dependant upon the number of the unit, and just seems too powerful unless it is supposed to override the ability of the other sorcerers to use any other powers. Just seems too powerful. Also, the sorcerers MAY select a single power? That feels wrong. If they don't have a psychic power, they should not be in the warcoven. Hey, who asked THAT guy to be in the coven?? Naahh. My suggestion? Give the warcoven the Brotherhood of Psykers rule and the Warp Flare power standard. If they use the Warp Flare, that's all they do. If not, they cast individually as you laid out. Gives them flexibilty and reflects that they each see themselves as a unique, selfish sorcerer, and so are not Grey Knights. Of course, this may need you to cost the unit higher. By the way, the tomes and their effects are awesome, great work there (and Ahriman gets them all. Sweet! What a way to show he really is the most potent sorcerer in the Galaxy (save maybe Magnus, who won't come out to play) without making it overpowering)).
Whoops. The +1 modifier per-sorcerer was a typo of sorts; that was actually supposed to be for every three Sorcerers within the unit (therefore to maximum of 3). This also links to the sacred number of Tzeentch (as is the 18" range for Tzeentch powers). This has of course been changed...
Warp Flare I wouldn't say is too powerful personally; again, it relies on your taking multiple 40pts models that are only slightly tougher than your average Tactical Marine. Whilst Str6 is good, the AP4 isn't. If you were to do the maths, you should find that it's flexible/effective against a variety of enemies but doesn't really excel, particularly against high armour saves. Like many things, I'd recommend their psychic powers to be taken in variety; a mixture of different psychic powers enables them to work against a variety of enemies. Honestly, I have no intention to change it as I feel it's balanced but good.
Regarding the optional Psychic Powers; originally it was just all psychic powers however someone commented that it wasn't really a coven, but just a collection of sorcerers with no teamwork; hence the optional tomes. I'm also pleased with the tomes; they provide a genuine bonus and choice between taking them and a psychic power and they are really worth taking (and boost ahriman). I agree, it's odd that some don't have powers, but they're worth not having IMHO.
Lucious the Eternal's special rules for his armour. I dislike and I feel it is a cop out. Do not allow the name of the rule fool you. The Eternal Warrior rule does not reflect the properties of his armour well. Kharn yes (thank you), Lucious no. I'd be happy to explore something later with you, if you'd like.
I knew Pilau would leap upon this!
I'm still not sure what the problem is with Lucius' armour personally. His armour itself doesn't really do much; it's Slaanesh that recreates him whilst the Doom Siren provides the psychic attack and the Lash of Torment acting against enemies in a debilitating manner. The Armour is just a symbol of his resurrection IMHO; as is eternal warrior and hence his not dying.
The problem I personally have with the proposed rules from you and Pilau is:
1) -1 initiative provides little bonus to Lucius; he's already Initiative 7 so very few enemies will strike before him anyway.
2) The removing an enemy is also something I have a problem with. Of course I considered it when 1st making the rules, but there's several flaws with it IMHO. Cyrius' transformation took several days, rather than the course of one or several turns. Furthermore, I have not (currently) included any rules that remove models from play as like many others I don't like this mechanic. Finally, there's a lot of problems that could arise from who can replaced; Unique characters like Calgar, C'tan, Abaddon (who also can have EW) etc. and others being replaced?! Creatures like Carnifex's, Orks, Krootox etc. would turn into Lucius? Creatures hat do not experience please to cause their death, such as Necrons, Tyranids etc?Things that are already dead like Eldrad, Necrons etc? Also, how would something like a Termagaunt or a Grot become Lucius?
I feel that eternal warrior represents how Lucius would be eternally a warrior; Slaanesh won't let him die and his armour represents that. It also helps a close combat and anti-character model such as Lucius; allowing him to excel in the thick of things without having to worry about a hidden powerfist or whatnot. It also means that he can go toe-to-toe with characters such as Lysander, Mephiston etc. as he should be able to.
Things I Love!
The Warband rules. I like. Feels true.
Warp Mask. Just awesome. Fits perfect, not too powerful and just feels really right.
Sorcerer Warcoven ... I love the imagry and I've been waiting a long time for its return.
Chaos Spawn! Now there's something to be feared and finally worth the points.
Ability to Mark stuff! Tears of joy!
Ahriman. See the comments above. And consider this... Only level 3 psyker in the galixy for the win?!?
No Mercy rule. Nice, elegant, not overpowered. Perfect.
All is Dust and the Sorcerer Commands rules. Very Nice. I know you struggled early on with the All is Dust rule, but I think you really nailed in down here.
cheers man!
Again, well done. In fact, I became a member of this site, instead of just lurking all the time, just so I could comment on it. I know you are trying to finish this project up, but it could use a final editing. I happen to have a degree in English and have edited in the gaming industry before, so I would be happy to do so if you'd like.
Thanks again man, seriously, cheers.
I have an A-level in English (don't know what that equates to in the states) and good english, so most of it's good, but yes it could certainly to with proof-reading and I would not object to your doing so in the slightest should you want to!
Personally though, I do feel most of the problems that arise are solved through a bit of common sense - I'm not trying to suggest in the slightest that you don't have it, it's simply my opinion on the rules...
For example, whilst I agree that the relentless/all is dust thing may be odd, there's no problem with it existing twice (it's twice as clear though! ) and all is dust clarifies WHY they have relentless, whilst the special rules listing clarifies that they DO have relentless IMHO.
For the Khornate Daemon Weapon, it states
Just initially reading it thru, I think most of my issues/confusion come from that edit being needed. For example, the Rubric marines get Relentless from the All is Dust power, but they already have it.
For the Khornate Daemon Weapon, the daemon weapon rules state "the user gains no additional attacks and all bonuses for wielding the Daemon Weapon are lost for the duration of that turn." which means that A) it can't gain additional attacks if the 1st roll is a 1. B) it can't roll a 2nd dice if the 1st roll is a 1. The clarification was partially due to the existing Daemon Weapon in the official CSM Codex.
Thanks again for the feedback man.
Praxiss wrote:OK, starting to collect the bits for a build of the Marauder. Just wanted to confirm with JustDave to see if these bitx match what he had in mind....
Marauder Cannon:
I'm thinking of using the barrel and bits from a GK terminator Psilencer mounted on the sponson turret from a Baneblade. This assembly would then be mounted where the hull H.Bolter normally is (assuming it fits)
Sounds good to me! I worry the Psylencer may be a bit small (two would work mind), but otherwise that sounds good to me!
H.Bolter sponsons:
The best (and cheapest) fit i can find so far online is to buy a couple of the TL H.Bolter off the Ravenwing Speeder. That way it is a Tl bolter with a built in ammo feed as well. The main problem with this the only site that have any at all only have 1 set....annoying. Also it is proving expensive to find a spare set of predator or Land Raider sponsons to use.
But thats's the plan.
Both of those, sound very reasonable to me; if you could get it to work then I reckon it'd look really good! Unfortunately, I don't think I have any of the parts you need so I probably can't help you there. Good luck though mate, it sounds like a good design and I look forward to seeing it Praxiss!
I dont think the baneblade turret would be big enough to fit 2 Terminator psilencers on it. But maybe if i upgrade it to the Dreadknight Heavy Psilenser? That's bound to be beefier, surely.
If anyone has any reliable bitz sites (preferably uk based) could they post a link. I'd prefer to egt everything from one place if possible to save on postage.
So far i have tried Bitz and Kitz, Bitz Box and Model Bits. But none of them have all the bits i need (NO-ONE has LR or Predator sponson kits at all)
EDIT....
Found one site that has it all in stock: http://www.letthedicedecide.co.uk 2 Ravenwing Twin H.bolters, a Dreadnight Psilencer, a Terminator Psilencer (just in case) and 2 Land Raider sponsons. £11.00 inc postage. Not as bad as i thought.
Ah! I was gonna suggest asking around in the swap shop, but you've clearly already got them. I think that's a pretty good price personally, particularly as it includes postage.
I look forward to seeing it man!
The heavy psilencer might be even better than the thunderfire cannon, which was what I was planning on eventually using. I didn't know there was a heavy version, so thanks a lot.
Ok, part arrived an hour ago and i couldn't wait. So here's the marauder cannon. Came out quite nicely and the baneblade turret fits on the heavy bolter plate quite nicely too.
Wont be glued down so the turret can move and the takl can be setup as a normal LR for normal games.....
not sure how the bolter sponsnns are going to turn out. The ravenwing TL H Bolters are a little smaller than i thought they would be. Might look a little stupid stuck to the side of a huge LR.
Cheers, really happy with it. might use it all the time as a counts as Heavy Bolter!
i should be able to get the sponsons done tonight hopefully. The most fiddly but is getting the magnets in place so the whole sponson comes on and off nicely.
Just Dave wrote:
I knew Pilau would leap upon this!
You weren't snoring when I was making time to help you with your 'dex Dave . My post was merely pointing out that I had made the same observation regarding Lucius armour to you as well, also with possible suggestions for it.
I agree with your points, we spoke about the -1(I) before, I just don't feel that the armour's been treated right.
Ah. Last time i went in there it was a guy from the Exeter GW running it, and he's beenthere for a while now. Dont know if the normal guy is gone or what (i think is name is Dave?).
Not sure if this has been up already (c'mon, it's 19 pages! ), but you need to add in how to handle counter-attack received by walkers within 6" of a Chief Slaughterer. When it came up during one of our games we simply assumed that you wanted a vehicle to count as Ld 10 for the purpouses of this test.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Not sure if this has been up already (c'mon, it's 19 pages! ), but you need to add in how to handle counter-attack received by walkers within 6" of a Chief Slaughterer. When it came up during one of our games we simply assumed that you wanted a vehicle to count as Ld 10 for the purpouses of this test.
Whoops. Wasn't aware of this problem; thanks for pointing it out man; I'll clarify it in the Codex soon.
It'll be changed so the counter-attack doesn't apply to models with an armour value.
Thanks again for the feedback man, much appreciated. How did your games in general go?
Praxiss wrote:Dont know if the normal guy is gone or what (i think is name is Dave?).
Anyway. Lets not de-rail the thread.
Must be a helluva guy then.
Btw, the Marauder looks really good man! Good luck with the sponsons mate, looking forward to seeing more!
Pilau Rice wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
I knew Pilau would leap upon this!
You weren't snoring when I was making time to help you with your 'dex Dave . My post was merely pointing out that I had made the same observation regarding Lucius armour to you as well, also with possible suggestions for it.
I agree with your points, we spoke about the -1(I) before, I just don't feel that the armour's been treated right.
Hey, you don't know if I was snoring then or not!
I stated my opinion of Lucius' armour here and I still am yet to be convinced of a viable alternative. If a response to my previous post explaining my position could convince me, then I'd change. As it is however, I remain unconvinced tbh.
I'm always willing to listen to feedback, but I whether I incorporate it and am convinced by it is a different matter...
Kepora wrote:And any word yet on my Fast Attack Hell Blades? Maybe some upgrade/variant ideas?
In a word, no.
Apologies man, but I still have no intentions to include Hell Blades as an option. As I said, if you want I could design you some rules for them, but I don't intend to include them in the 'dex itself.
As ever, all feedback and publicity is welcome. Cheers!
Just Dave wrote:
Hey, you don't know if I was snoring then or not!
and there was me feeling valued, cheers Dave, I'll remember not to offer assistance to people again ...
Just Dave wrote:I stated my opinion of Lucius' armour here and I still am yet to be convinced of a viable alternative. If a response to my previous post explaining my position could convince me, then I'd change. As it is however, I remain unconvinced tbh.
I'm always willing to listen to feedback, but I whether I incorporate it and am convinced by it is a different matter...
And I've expressed mine, I know you won't change it unless a good suggestion comes up or the masses rally against you, that's why I've ceased my persistence in trying to get you to change it. I could continue if you would like
Just Dave wrote:
Thanks again for the feedback man, much appreciated. How did your games in general go?
Heh, went something like "Khârn with 3 Berzerkers charges boyz squad, the Klaw whiffs, Khârn kills 7 boyz. Khârn goes on a bloody rampage through the Orkish army, slaughtering everything in his path." True to fluff in other words!
Oh, and we also had a Dreadnought with 8 attacks on the charge running rampant. Not much Orks can do to stop something like that, short of lootas and deffrollas. It went for the BWs first though...
We're gonna let our resident Chaos player keep playing with the Codex, simply because it's more fun to play against and because it's a well-done Codex. Kudos to you, sir!
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Heh, went something like "Khârn with 3 Berzerkers charges boyz squad, the Klaw whiffs, Khârn kills 7 boyz. Khârn goes on a bloody rampage through the Orkish army, slaughtering everything in his path." True to fluff in other words!
Oh, and we also had a Dreadnought with 8 attacks on the charge running rampant. Not much Orks can do to stop something like that, short of lootas and deffrollas. It went for the BWs first though...
We're gonna let our resident Chaos player keep playing with the Codex, simply because it's more fun to play against and because it's a well-done Codex. Kudos to you, sir!
Ouch. I can't say I'm too surprised how things turned out if both Kharn and that Dread made it into the Ork lines like that. I guess things could've been a lot different had the Klaw not wiffed, or Kharn encountered a Warboss or Nobs, or the Dread met some Lootas or Deffrolla's.
I must say, I think CSM's are a hard counter for orks, like Space Wolves; in that they are tougher man-for-man, can out-shoot and even out-assault the Orks.
Although, I think the Dread can only get 7 attacks on the charge at most; 3 base, +1 for charging, +1 for 2 CWW's, +1 for MOK and +1 for chief slaughterer. =7?
If you have more games in the future, particularly against other 5th-ed codices, I'd love to hear how they go! Thanks again man!
Pilau Rice wrote:And I've expressed mine, I know you won't change it unless a good suggestion comes up or the masses rally against you, that's why I've ceased my persistence in trying to get you to change it. I could continue if you would like
I'm fine for you to continue, but - as I, and as you said - it'd need to be "a good suggestion". My previous post stated I struggle to see viable alternatives, but I'm willing to listen if you find one...
Kepora wrote:that's what I meant, the rules for 'em.
Again, great work. Reading your codex has made me pull out my Thousand Sons and tinker with the actual codex and creating some armies. I have not yet done so with your codex, but I'm sure that is next, given my inability to really come up with a list that I really like yet.
Couple counter points.
Regarding the Mark of Tzeentch. I actually don't have a problem with how it functions -- invulnerable save and ability to use two psychic powers a turn. Good. My criticsm is that like the current codex, the section detailing the Mark does NOT state the part about being able to use the two powers per turn -- you need to look elsewhere for that. To me, that is a flaw. All the details should be in the same place. Its funny, but I know this is a flaw through experience. My brother, who dabbles in Chaos (but not Tzeentch) called me on it once, saying where was I getting this two powers a turn crap -- it says nothing of the kind under the detailing of the Mark. I had to comb the book to find the section that detailed it to show him (beginning of the Psychic Powers section for those keeping score at home). As for the Psychic Mastery rules from the Grey Knights codex, it basically just says that each psyker in the book has a Psychic Mastery level associated with it in parenthisis. Blah blah, Psyker (2). The number shown is the number of psychic powers a turn that the model can use. We have not seen another codex to test my hunch, and since Necrons should be next I doubt we will until next year, perhaps with the rumored Chaos Legions book. But I was just suggesting you add pretty much the same verbage regarding these rules to your codex to keep them the same and more universal. The effect is the same -- Tzeetch guys can use more than one a turn. I guess we will see if I'm right about it becoming the standard.
The +3 maximum makes me far more accepting of the effect of the Sorcerers Warcoven. Since you said you don't have the Grey Knights codex, I guess the Brotherhood of Psykers rule comment was moot. I'd still like to see something like that implemented with the Warcoven -- as at that point they would all be pskers regardless of wether or not they had an individual power or not. Still, the overall affect is still something I've been longing for, so I am not overly concerned on convincing you with this. Still, I have a hunch that the next time the Chaos codex is officially redone, something like this will be included, indeed I expect that the next time the Eldar codex is redone as well, that the Brotherhood of Psykers rule will be used more or less wholesale to represent it. In many ways, it is simply the refining of the rules presented for Battle Psykers in the Imperial Guard codex. Again, just a hunch, but I'd wager a lot that this will become the standard.
Ahhh ... Lucious. I see I stumbled upon an ongoing topic. I can understand your hesitation. I too see the -1 I as pointless. The Mark of Slaanesh already grants +1 I, so he should already be faster than everyone else. Plus, what does being faster have to do with the rebirthing properties of his armor? I can also understand your dislike of the powers that simply remove a model. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of them myself. However, looking at GWs trends, it seems a moot point. They do not seem to be bothered by them and they WILL continue to use them. Why fight the power on them? I think they are okay in limited capacity, as we see here. JotW? Yeah, too broad and overpowered I say. But powers like Boon of Mutation from the current codex seem about right. It is VERY expensive and has really short range and STILL requires both a psychic test and a failed T test. Seems fair to me. I really love using it to level the playing field -- this old, plain codex still has a couple interesting and potent teeth.
As for the wonkyness of just who might be reborn as Lucious and how swiftly it might happen in a game, I think these concerns are overblown. Again, as I presented it, it will rarely (at best) happen. In fact, you might further limit it by saying that he must be defeated in hand-to-hand combat only for it to work. Besides, we already make some strange assumptions for the sake of the game. For example, both Daeomons and Necroms can both fall victim to Poison in the game. Makes no sense to me, but at present, its just the way it is. Overall, my main concern with simply giving Lucious Eternal Warrior is that is does not really represent his armor from a game mechanic point of view. Slaanesh does not protect him from death, and that's the point, it just ensures that he is reborn. If anything, he should be more suseptible to weapons that cause Instant Death, as it can be argued that these potent weapons are the only thing that can protect one from his accuresed armor. For that reason alone, I think ihe should not be granted Eternal Warrior. All it does is protect him from not being Instantly Killed. Again, the point is not that he cannot be killed, but that he will be reborn. I simply think the word 'Eternal' in the usr is misleading regarding Lucious.
As for the wonkyness of just who might be reborn as Lucious and how swiftly it might happen in a game, I think these concerns are overblown. Again, as I presented it, it will rarely (at best) happen. In fact, you might further limit it by saying that he must be defeated in hand-to-hand combat only for it to work. Besides, we already make some strange assumptions for the sake of the game. For example, both Daeomons and Necroms can both fall victim to Poison in the game. Makes no sense to me, but at present, its just the way it is. Overall, my main concern with simply giving Lucious Eternal Warrior is that is does not really represent his armor from a game mechanic point of view. Slaanesh does not protect him from death, and that's the point, it just ensures that he is reborn. If anything, he should be more suseptible to weapons that cause Instant Death, as it can be argued that these potent weapons are the only thing that can protect one from his accuresed armor. For that reason alone, I think ihe should not be granted Eternal Warrior. All it does is protect him from not being Instantly Killed. Again, the point is not that he cannot be killed, but that he will be reborn. I simply think the word 'Eternal' in the usr is misleading regarding Lucious.
Considering that whoever kills Lucius will become Lucius - not immediately but slowly - perhaps his "eternity" could be something like that should he die, the model which inflicts the final wound on Lucius counts as dead at the end of the game, even if he isn't? Or, perhaps that Lucius only gives a kill point should the model to kill him also die before the end of the battle?
Odd ideas perhaps, but quite fluffy nontheless.
Ok, finished the sponsons for the Land Raider Marauder and have done a basic first coat of paint on the main chassis (as in i have not done any shading, washing or highlighting yet so i know the paint is dodgy at best). The sponsons are also magnetised so this is just a test fit.
Here are the pics:
Spoiler:
The guns are just the normal Heavy Bolters form the Land Raider kit btu with the ammo belts clipped off. After a little clipping they fit into the normal LR sponson quite easily. I just need some sort of armour panel to cover the side of the guns, some trimming of mould lines and general tidying up, and then off to paint!
@Praxiss. Yes this land Raider Marauder is going to be awesome.
My Chaos Lord on a Demonic steed inspired by and created for the codex. Haha this sounds like an advertisement testimonial. "Dave's codex is amazing! Just look what it did for me! [insert cheesy smile and thumbs up]"
AlmightyWalrus wrote:I just read through the fluff for the Land Raider Marauder and almost sprayed my drink all over my screen. Halmstad, eh?
Give this man a cookie! Yep, that's the place. When I was thinking of it I wanted a suitably industrial-sounding name, and looking in the stores list of white dwarf, I saw Halmstad. Near you then?
It's the same situation with some other places mentioned, whilst Vahlinhurst is similar to a Dakka members name who I though would be appropriate.
Saintspirit wrote:Considering that whoever kills Lucius will become Lucius - not immediately but slowly - perhaps his "eternity" could be something like that should he die, the model which inflicts the final wound on Lucius counts as dead at the end of the game, even if he isn't? Or, perhaps that Lucius only gives a kill point should the model to kill him also die before the end of the battle?
Odd ideas perhaps, but quite fluffy nontheless.
If I were to change it, this may be something similar to what I change it to. Or if you kill Lucius, you actually loose a KP instead of gaining one, or something akin to Heroic Sacrifice where they roll off +Ld, if Lucius is higher than the opponents model is removed.
I will not add a 'remove model from board power' though. I am aware and agree that GW are doing more and more these days, but ultimately, I'm not GW and - like many people - not a fan of these powers. It's Instant Death or nothing here for these kinds of powers methinks.
Judging by the fluff, the only thing that can protect a model from becoming Lucius is NOT taking pleasure from killing him; hence non-sentient beings such as Tyranids, Necrons, Drones, vehicles etc. should be immune as they cannot experience pleasure.
I wouldn't say the concerns of these are overblown personally, I feel they are valid, but as a result, in the fluff Lucius won't be killed by such a character, therefore he will always be resurected within the fluff. Such a thing cannot be guaranteed within the gameplay however.
I still believe Eternal Warrior is reasonable for it. It's in the name; Eternal. He will be fighting forever/for eternity, therefore he cannot truly die, therefore he has eternal warrior.
Again, IF I were to change it, I sincerely doubt it will be in a resurrection fashion.
*Apologies for the short and possibly harsh reply: tired.
Hey dave i just thought of something you might want to add, i do not know if you know that the bt and the gk get blessed hulls for the land raider crusader and i was wondering if you thought about doing a chaos equivilent to stop them pesky lances just a thought.
Cerebrium wrote:I noticed in the changes page, you mentioned giving sorcerers some psychic defence, but I don't see any.
Am I just missing something obvious?
They have the wargear, Warpmask (IIRC); it's under the 2nd page of psychic powers. Effectively, an enemy psyker within 24" suffers Perils on any doubles roll, rather than just a double 1 or 6.
Maybe you could add a new land raider variant, say the Cerberus. Looses assault ramp and forward access points. Gains two twin-linked Multimeltas in the hull. The front is covered with wicked gears and blades. Rules Breaking Drill, May move through impassible terrain however in it fails a dangerous terrain check it is wrecked, Shock and Awe A squad disembarking counts as equiped with defensive grenades for one game turn after it disembarks. Tactic would be put short ranged squad in there drive up and unload into a squad and take the charge. Maybe 265 pts and transport of 12 Termies counting as two. Maybe Fast Attack instead of Heavy Support because its supposed to move fast and flank the enemy instead of shoot. It would be bad because would only have two access points on sides and your units would not beable to assault after moving. Would be hard to convert but would probably look great.
Addicted to Bleach wrote:Maybe you could add a new land raider variant, say the Cerberus. Looses assault ramp and forward access points. Gains two twin-linked Multimeltas in the hull. The front is covered with wicked gears and blades. Rules Breaking Drill, May move through impassible terrain however in it fails a dangerous terrain check it is wrecked, Shock and Awe A squad disembarking counts as equiped with defensive grenades for one game turn after it disembarks. Tactic would be put short ranged squad in there drive up and unload into a squad and take the charge. Maybe 265 pts and transport of 12 Termies counting as two. Maybe Fast Attack instead of Heavy Support because its supposed to move fast and flank the enemy instead of shoot. It would be bad because would only have two access points on sides and your units would not beable to assault after moving. Would be hard to convert but would probably look great.
You should try and organize your thoughts before posting.
Your idea seems great, but it's hard to follow your suggestion due to poor spelling, typos, and sentence organization.
Like :
LAND RAIDER CERBERUS ................................................. 265pts
Type : Fast Attack ?
Chassis : Land Raider
Changes :
- remove Assault Vehicle, Front Access Point
- add Twin-Linked Hull Multi-Melta
Special rules :
- Shock & Awe
...
Etc...
See, it took 3 minutes to write down, and I think it would be more acceptable as a suggestion, while being all the clearer for readers.
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Has anyone gone so far as to playtest this yet?
Yep. Had our resident Chaos player come up with a Khorne-themed list with Defilers, Dreadnoughts, a Chief Slaughterer and Khârn. Jesus effing Christ Dreadnoughts with rerolls to everything and 8 attacks on the charge are silly. Marine armies and similar might not have too much of a problem, but this was unleashed on our Ork player...
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Has anyone gone so far as to playtest this yet?
Yeah, been play-tested several times it seems. I don't think it's been played competitively against a 5th edition army yet though...
ZephyrRey did some bat reps in the appropriate forum, there's a battle report summary(s) here, Walrus' area had a game and someone else played them and won 2 and lost 1 game, albeit using a rule (quite seriously) wrong. Iproxtaco also said he'd play it and make batreps, but I've not heard back on that.
But yeah, it's been played in a few friendly games thanks.
Addicted to Bleach wrote:Maybe you could add a new land raider variant, say the Cerberus. Looses assault ramp and forward access points. Gains two twin-linked Multimeltas in the hull. The front is covered with wicked gears and blades. Rules Breaking Drill, May move through impassible terrain however in it fails a dangerous terrain check it is wrecked, Shock and Awe A squad disembarking counts as equiped with defensive grenades for one game turn after it disembarks. Tactic would be put short ranged squad in there drive up and unload into a squad and take the charge. Maybe 265 pts and transport of 12 Termies counting as two. Maybe Fast Attack instead of Heavy Support because its supposed to move fast and flank the enemy instead of shoot. It would be bad because would only have two access points on sides and your units would not beable to assault after moving. Would be hard to convert but would probably look great.
I'd say that belongs in its own thread, rather than here.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
KilroyKiljoy wrote:Has anyone gone so far as to playtest this yet?
Yep. Had our resident Chaos player come up with a Khorne-themed list with Defilers, Dreadnoughts, a Chief Slaughterer and Khârn. Jesus effing Christ Dreadnoughts with rerolls to everything and 8 attacks on the charge are silly. Marine armies and similar might not have too much of a problem, but this was unleashed on our Ork player...
I think 7 is the max it can get, but yeah, particularly with the klaws failing as you said, Orks struggle with Dreads anyway. I think, had the powerklaws worked, lootas/rokkits/deffrollas got at it or it was an army other than Orks it could've been a radically different story, but yeah, barring immobilisation, it's a tough cookie!
1500 Points of Renegades. Making this list was actually a challenge considering i couldnt spam cult troops fun to make though. Hopefully have a bat rep of it up soon.
If I need to make a suggestion, Rubrics need some reliable anti-tank. I know they can get Bolt of Change, but that's FAR less reliable than, say, a meltagun or lascannon.
Hey sweethomealabama (sorry, that was too funny not to), what is the point in giving a Rhino to a 15-man squad?
Is the Rhino following behind, until his squad gets down to 10- men, so that they can embark ?
Not wanting to troll uh, I've already seen that kind of thing with loyalists (not combat-squad-able) & Razorbacks... but I really just wonder what's the point in that !
alabamaheretic wrote:actually taking the icon of the renegade lets you combat squad so both squads gets broken into a two five man squads and, the ten hop into rhinos
I had a doubt, so checked it on the fandex (and I'm pretty sure it's close in the SM codex) :
Just Dave's Chaos Codex wrote:Combat Squads Any 10-man unit with the Combat Squad special rule may be split into two 5-man units.
So it says 10-man unit, not 10+ units...
Well, at least that leaves you a few points to fiddle with ?!?
Just Dave wrote:
I think 7 is the max it can get, but yeah, particularly with the klaws failing as you said, Orks struggle with Dreads anyway. I think, had the powerklaws worked, lootas/rokkits/deffrollas got at it or it was an army other than Orks it could've been a radically different story, but yeah, barring immobilisation, it's a tough cookie!
Huh, right you are. I could've sworn it was 8.
Just to make sure, 3 base, plus one for DCCWs, plus one for MoK, plus one for charging, plus one for Chief Slaughterer. Did we think of the same boosts?
Cerebrium wrote:If I need to make a suggestion, Rubrics need some reliable anti-tank. I know they can get Bolt of Change, but that's FAR less reliable than, say, a meltagun or lascannon.
I can fully understand what you are saying, but would you say a Str 10 AP1 shot - albeit that must pass a psychic test then hit - is less reliable than a Powerfist, or the Blast Masters Str6?
I may do some math on this...
Yggdrasil wrote:Hey sweethomealabama (sorry, that was too funny not to), what is the point in giving a Rhino to a 15-man squad?
Is the Rhino following behind, until his squad gets down to 10- men, so that they can embark ?
Not wanting to troll uh, I've already seen that kind of thing with loyalists (not combat-squad-able) & Razorbacks... but I really just wonder what's the point in that !
alabamaheretic wrote:actually taking the icon of the renegade lets you combat squad so both squads gets broken into a two five man squads and, the ten hop into rhinos
Your saying that Yggsie (not at all trolling), is a fair point and reminds me I should clarify the combat squading, as otherwise it's just a C&P from the SM Codex and doesn't explain larger squads...
Great points guys, even if you didn't mean to raise it!
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Just Dave wrote:
I think 7 is the max it can get, but yeah, particularly with the klaws failing as you said, Orks struggle with Dreads anyway. I think, had the powerklaws worked, lootas/rokkits/deffrollas got at it or it was an army other than Orks it could've been a radically different story, but yeah, barring immobilisation, it's a tough cookie!
Huh, right you are. I could've sworn it was 8.
Just to make sure, 3 base, plus one for DCCWs, plus one for MoK, plus one for charging, plus one for Chief Slaughterer. Did we think of the same boosts?
Yeah, that's exactly the boost I'm thinking of. Note, the +1 for MoK also relies on him having 2 CCW's as well.
Bolt of Change IS a potent ability, but as you said yourself, you still need to pass a psychic test before you even get to use it. It really makes a mono-Rubric army struggle for anti-tank when they have to pass a Ld check to even threaten a tank.
Oh, and to follow up with some praise: Daemon princes are AWESOME. I have mine with:
Daemon Prince -Mark of Tzeentch -Psyker -Wings -Daemon Weapon -Daemonic Speed
It makes him amazing in both shooting AND assault. Warptime, Doombolt then charge will destroy damn near any infantry in the game.
Sorry Dave, Coudl you just clarify the workign of Corrupted Machine Spirit for me?
"Machine Spirit Corrupted - This vehicle may fire always fire a single weapon at BS4, this may be at a separate target to other weapons. This rule is still in effect even if the vehicle is shaken, stunned or has moved flat-out.
the highlighted bit is waht confuses me. At first the rule reads as sayign the behicle can simply always fire at least one weapon. But the next nbit suggests it can fire additional weapons like the loyalist MoTMS.
Coudl you give a workign example of how this power works normally (obviously it clearly says that if the vehicle is stunned it can still fire).
So if the Land Raider moves 6", normally it coudl only fire one main and all defensive guns. does this rule mean it can also fire an additional main weapon? or does it just mean that, if the situation sayd it cant fireany (if it has mvoe 12" for example) it can actually still fire 1.
Durza wrote:I read it to mean you can fire one more weapon than normal. Probably wrong though.
That's what i thought at first butit supposed to be a "scaled" down PoTMS and beign able to just fire one more wepaon than normal is the same as the loyalist one isn't it?
I think that Daves one basically allows you to fire 1 weapon even if the tank has a: moved 12" or more, or b: is stunned/shaken
Apologies for the confusion there lads, allow me to briefly explain.
I'll address any other issues when I can, but again, I'm a bit busy atm.
The separate weapon part pertains to if it can normally fire multiple weapons; therefore if it's remained stationary and can therefore fire all its weapons, this allows it to fire a single weapon at a separate target.
So the Machine Spirit (corrupted) would always control a single weapon; whether it be to allow it to fire if it otherwise can't, or to fire at a separate target with a single weapon.
So, if it remains stationary it can fire all its weapons and therefore the 'may always fire 1' bit is rendered useless. However, a single weapon may be fired at a separate target.
If it moves so fast - or is shaken/stunned - so it can't fire any weapons, then this allows it to fire one. Considering this is the only weapon firing, in this case the 'separate target' part is rendered useless.
OK, as it stands, Machine Spirit Corrupted is worded as:
"This vehicle may fire always fire a single weapon at BS4 (or BS3 if Daemonically Possessed), this may be at a separate target to other weapons.
This rule is still in effect even if the vehicle is shaken, stunned or has moved flat-out."
This will be changed to:
"This vehicle may fire always fire a single weapon at BS4 (or BS3 if Daemonically Possessed), this may be at a separate target to other weapons.
Therefore, it can have one of two effects; to allow the vehicle to fire a single weapon when it normally couldn't, due to moving at cruising speed, being stunned etc. OR to allow the vehicle to fire a single weapon at a separate target to any other operable weapons"
Machien Spirit Corrupted allows the vehicle to fire one of its normally firable weapons (taking into account movement etc) at a different target,using the vehicles normal BS. It also alows the vehicle to shoot ONE weapon while it is stunned/shaken OR if it has moved more than 12".
No huge changes, as ever:
changed Spawn mark costs so they take into account Marks discounts from certain warbands,
clarified Machine Spirit Corrupted,
5pts discount for TLLC for Chaos Dreadnought Magnate,
some other small changes...
As ever, all feedback and experience is welcome!
woodbok wrote:I will be playing quite a few games with this codex soon, at last. This is what I'll be using.
sorcerer, icon of the emperors children, Mark of slaanesh, lash, winds of chaos
Dreadnought W/Mark of slaanesh, Blastmaster, Twin L. autocannon
Dreadnought W/Mark of slaanesh, Blastmaster, Twin L. autocannon
6 noise marinesW/ Blastmaster//Champion W/doom siren//rhino W/open topped
6 noise marinesW/ Blastmaster//Champion W/doom siren//rhino W/open topped
10 chaos marines, missile launcher//Rhino
10 chaos marines, missile launcher//Rhino
10 chaos marines, missile launcher//Rhino
Pred W/2 Warp cannons
Pred W/2 Warp cannons
Nice list man, characterful and competitive. Nice.
Please tell us how it goes, I'd really love to hear your feedback from your games!
Praxiss wrote:Ah, gotcha. Thanks for that.
Ok so:
Machien Spirit Corrupted allows the vehicle to fire one of its normally firable weapons (taking into account movement etc) at a different target,using the vehicles normal BS. It also alows the vehicle to shoot ONE weapon while it is stunned/shaken OR if it has moved more than 12".
Basically, yeah. Essentially, the Machine Spirit can control a weapon; to allow a weapon to be fired when no weapons should be able to (therefore one weapon can always be fired, rather than one additional), or to aim at a separate target. Again, it's weaker than PotMS but still a useful addition.
Praxiss wrote:I will be playing an apoc game and testing the Land Raider Maraurder on October 13th.
I'll let you know how it goes. It's gonna be packed full of terminators though. /cackle
Cracking! I look forward to hearing about it man! Hopefully it can pull its weight within an apoc game without being trampled by a titan or something! Cheers man!
Someone sent me a PM asking how the Eldar Codex is going...
... Firstly, thank you for the enquiry! Secondly, it's going quite well. Just moved into a new place, so it was put on hold for a while, but progress is pretty good thank you and I'm happy with things so far. I'm going to leave a little teaser of what can be expected, from the latest page I finished. Nothing spectacular to see, but you can find out little hints and teasers from some things there. Note that it's still WIP so the names/costs/ideas aren't final however.
Oh Dave you beautifull man! I love the codex :3 and will be playtesting a list (which i'm about to make) in a couple of weeks.. I'll be updating you on how it'll end :3
Especially liked the customizability you've added to our walkers and that Kharn is EW. Very polished unlike that abomination we call the current codex..
)
Nice to see that someone else knows how badass we are...
PINNING. 
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