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(quote inserted by Manchu)
Hey folks!
For those of you who don't know me, I play Dark Eldar. My hope for this thread and what it becomes is to be around for a long time and to be read by people even after I've forgotten about creating it. I've always been blunt, and will do so now: As you read this thread and weigh the value of what I write and compare it to what you may read elsewhere or in contention to my own thoughts, I ask that you consider my successes when contemplating my thoughts. So take the following thread and the advice that I've taken the time to write in the spirit in which it is given: Trying to help other Dark Eldar players emulate my success.
This thread is my attempt at an “Advanced Tips and Tricks” for Dark Eldar players to step up their competitive abilities. I’m not going to talk about fundamental list creation (though I will touch on it a bit), unit comparison, how many lance weapons in an army, what units work best with which other units….those things have all been discussed (or are being discussed elsewhere), and what I’m writing here will be most beneficial if you have already read the following three threads:
Generalized DE Advice Wych Cult Advice Kabal Advice AKA "Darklight Storm"
Some of what I discuss will be a rehash of something I have discussed elsewhere – because some things are important enough to repeat. As the title says, this thread is about winning with Dark Eldar. It does not say, “How to have fun with Dark Eldar” or “How to create an enjoyable game with Dark Eldar.” If you aren’t hungry…if you don’t feel a primal urge to eat red meat with your bare hands and lick the grease from your fingers…if you would rather turn the other cheek when you get hit instead of escalating the confrontation into brutal destruction for your enemy, this guide is not for you.
This guide is five parts.
Part I: State of Mind: This is the first part of being successful with Dark Eldar – starting a game with the right state of mind. My list-creation advice always echoes the same sentiments – things like, “The best defense is a good offensive,” and “Every ablative wound you take is killing power you’re losing.” That list creation mentality of “KILL KILL KILL” needs to effectively translate into your mindset for your success in a game of 40k. Before you start rolling dice, get angry. Not angry and unsportsmanlike…more affronted. It is beneath your dignity to have to mutilate unworthy opponents. They should voluntarily subject their souls for your pleasure, not inconvenience you by making you waste your time taking them.
I write this first because it is the most important. Mentally visualize how every enemy vehicle is going to explode. How you are going to viciously table your opponent without taking a single casualty. Completely focus your thoughts on utterly annihilating your enemy from the table. And they ARE your enemy. For the 2-2.5 hours of the game, your friend/opponent/stranger is NOT your friend. They were rude enough to challenge your supremacy on the table-top, and deserve extinction. Every tank you kill should send a joyous thrill through your temporarily black heart. Every model you kill is your enemy’s just desserts for the sheer audacity in wasting your time. When you enter a tournament, you should be morally outraged that they didn’t just hand you the prize support at the beginning to save them humiliation at your hands on the table top, and trembling with anticipation to repay such an insult with a vengeance.
This serves two purposes.
1. It puts you in the right frame of mind to examine how to cause the maximum damage to your opponent, which works in conjunction with the same effort you should have put into your list, figuring out how to create maximum killing potential. No…you should NOT have five trueborn in that venom if they only have 4 special weapons.
2. It keeps you focused on killing. Every vehicle you lose needs to redouble your fury and desire to wipe the board clean of your enemy. Dark Eldar are not objective campers. They are not reserve or deep-striking utilizers. We do not sit in cover on an objective and waggle our tongues at inferior species. We do not need to do anything other than present ourselves squarely on the battlefield, DECLARE that we own it, and laugh in the face of anyone who has something to say about it. We eviscerate them with darklight, poison and blade. I’ve said this before and will again no doubt, but the answer to “Don’t you think you should take a 5 man warrior squad to camp at least one objective?” is a simple and stark “NO!!” We are killers. If you are a Dark Eldar player, you are a KILLER!
Every point in your army should be focused on killing. Every thought through your head about your army should be focused on killing. For the 2-2.5 hours of that tournament game, every molecule of your being needs to be the antithesis of your enemy, terribly and violently focused on absolute destruction and demoralization of your enemy.
Now, with that said, I again must reiterate that this is not synonymous with bad sportsmanship. You should not growl at your opponent across the table, or bite them, or brandish weaponry. Smile, joke, be friendly. But you must *NOT* be distracted from the razor edge mindset that you’ve willed yourself into that is completely focused on ruin and the suffering of your inferiors. 40k should be, and *is* fun. Winning is fun, and tabling your opponent without losing a single model is absolutely giddy. It is NOT your job to make your opponent have a good game. It IS your job to make your opponent feel like they are being destroyed by a gentleman. Whether their ego can tolerate unequivocal destruction of their ability (or inability) to create a list, and the mockery of their tactical skills on the table or not is NOT your problem. If they are good sports, they will accept the humbling gracefully, and possibly learn something. If they are bad sports, they will grumble, swear, and/or be sullen about the abuse you inflict on them. Again, NOT YOUR PROBLEM. They shouldn’t have affronted you in the first place by making you spend the time destroying them. If they had conceded at the beginning, you two could have gone and had a drink and chatted together. They should have KNOWN that Dark Eldar are indomitable.
Don’t smack-talk. Last weekend my friend was smacktalking one of my opponents on my behalf, and said, “The best kind of smacktalk is the kind someone else has to back up.” It was funny, but in terms of sportsmanship, don’t do it. You must be utterly confident, completely vicious, absolutely focused on killing, killing, killing. I go through this ritual before every single game. I mentally visualize violence, focus my every thought on how lethal I need my army to be and keep that intense focus throughout the entire game.
This section of my guide on winning with Dark Eldar isn’t a be-all, end-all of Dark Eldar tactics – it is meant to prepare you mentally for HOW to play and how to approach each game, not what moves to make in a game.
Part II: Deployment Choices So you’re at the tournament, you’ve been listening to Mudvayne, adrenaline is coursing through your veins, you’re sweaty with it, murder is in your mind, and the corners of your vision are throbbing red with rage. You’re ready to translate that anger onto the tabletop.
Now comes the single most important dice roll of the entire game: The roll for deployment option. I could write two pages on this dice roll, the ramifications it has on your game, the psychology involved in the result….probably more than two pages. My premise of Dark Eldar as an army is as a lethal, horrific force capable of inflicting game ending casualties in the first two turns. Truthfully, most of my games are decided by the first dice roll of the game – the roll for deployment. If I win the roll, the game is pretty much over. If I don’t win the roll, its going to be a real game. With this in mind, I want to talk a moment about lists – Baron Sathonyx adds +1 to your roll to go first. I’d go so far as to call him mandatory in every Dark Eldar army, every iteration. He’s not in my wych cult – only because I haven’t figured out what to do with him in it yet. He’ll end up there. For a Dark Eldar player using a codex that screams “Glass Cannon” getting in that alpha-strike is just that important. Getting the first turn is a boon to the alpha-strike – significantly.
You either won the roll to go first or you didn’t.
If you won the roll: If you've read the threads linked at the top and heeded basic list advice, you have the tools and attitude in your arsenal to murder your opponent. Deploy centrally. Deploying across your deployment zone to have firepower in range for wherever your opponent might deploy is a mistake - deploy centrally with the ability to move straight ahead, left or right towards your enemy. Here's a sample deployment:
I haven't written any battle reports since the new codex came out, but not much changes in deployment style. Centrally deployed so that I can threaten anything on the board as quickly as possible. Vehicles turned sideways are important - with careful positioning they can give cover to the things behind them by obscuring 50% of the facing of other vehicles - which are incredibly narrow profiled and not hard to do - and having a free rotate means that when you move 12" forward and rotate, you get about 3" of extra range - to disembark out of 2" into cover or in preparation of attempting to fleet and assault. With ravagers now having aerial assault and a full 12" move while still being able to fire all weaponry, their central position is not as important - they have 12" of movement and 36" range - I generally deploy one on each flank (utilizing cover if possible) and one centrally - so that I'm threatening the middle and ensuring that an attempt to deploy on a single flank doesn't put me out of range of firing at enemies. In a spearhead deployment, still deploy at the very front. For Dawn of War, everything of mine goes into DoW reserve and comes in on turn one - generally somewhere between 18-24" depending on the board, enough to get a flat-out save, and depending on the amount of firepower the enemy has, far enough back to challenge their Nightfight rolling.
Additionally, choosing sides is critical. The side or quarter I choose is the one that I believe will be *least* favorable to my opponent. I don't really care what is in my deployment zone because I'm coming for the fether across the table hard and fast. I want them to benefit from as little cover as possible to maximize my killing power.
Objective placement: Some people favor placing objectives as far away from each other as possible to capitalize on the DE ability to get to them with greater speed than the enemy in the late game. I don't. Objectives go 12" away from each other (which is as close together as they are allowed), and as centrally as I can get them. I *want* the game happening in the middle of the table, I *want* my enemy deploying with objectives in mind, right across from me. Even if I don't get the first turn, if objectives aren't fixed, they're going 12" apart, in the middle of the table, as close as I can get them. If the enemy puts one in the very center of the table, mine will get 12" from theirs towards my deployment zone.
If you didn't win the roll:
The game gets trickier. There is no standard "Reserve vs. not reserve" answer that I can give here. It depends on two things:
1. Terrain and Placement: If terrain is plentiful, and arranged such that a forward deployment will get me cover for the majority of my army (or that it will give some of my army cover while the rest of my army gets cover from the parts getting cover) then deploying on the table is still a consideration. If terrain is such that you need to deploy mid-to-rear of your deployment zone....such that even if you survive the enemy first turn relatively unscathed your assault units won't make it in on the first turn and your trueborn will be out of range, then reserving becomes more of a consideration.
2. Enemy list: How much ranged firepower they are packing is the other half of the equation. If there is enough ranged firepower to reliably kill 1/3 to 1/2 of your army in their first turn....then reserving is more likely a better situation.
In general, reserving is *not* a favorable situation for Dark Eldar. Trickling in piecemeal onto the table is never the preferred option to bringing the full weight of your army to bear, but if cover and deployment areas, and the enemy list and deployment don't give you the feeling that you can survive well enough to hit back as hard or harder as they're going to hit you, then reserve. The one very positive thing that Dark Eldar have going for them now that they didn't have in previous editions is the range of firesupport. Lances are still 36", but we now also have splinter cannons - which are also 36". When you move in from reserve, you are *still* going to get the alpha-strike, just at reduced capacity to what a full deployment would give you.
There are additional benefits to having such a threatening army on the table. Opponents will reserve *their* armies or pieces of their armies even when their army is not at an advantage to do so. If you're going first, that's two free turns of unequal combat in which a Dark Eldar general with an army and mentality focused on lethality can decide the game in.
Two additional notes on enemy reserves:
1. If your enemy reserves their army and isn't skimmer based, make sure that when their turn 2 starts, your entire army is flat-out, and that *everything* has a 4+ save regardless of its position on the board. Additionally, play around with your vehicles, their contents and a table edge. If you have enough vehicles, you can line their table edge in two turns - at which point non-skimmers are automatically destroyed. While the GWFAQ 1.1 allows players to tank shock onto the board, it also notes that if a unit stops with any part of it off the board, it counts as destroyed. A rhino attempting to ram a skimmer from off the table stops 1" away from the raider to resolve the ramming attack. IE, it has stopped and is still not on the table. Personally, if my opponent fully reserves in this situation and hasn't inspired my ire with a bad attitude thus far (while the game is beginning), I'll tell them what I plan to do after they announce that they are fully reserving, show them the FAQ and the clarification if it comes up, and tell them that I don't want to win like that - so ask them to deploy on the table anyway.
2. If your enemy *is* skimmer based (Eldar and Dark Eldar) you can use roughly the same strategy - except that you flat out your vehicles in a checkerboard pattern *near* their table edge. I don't have a picture of this to show, but the goal is for enemy reserves to not be able to move onto their table edge, and have to fly over you to get onto the table - more than 12", so that they don't get to fire anyway. Alpha-strike denial. If you haven't done this before, play around with your models near a table edge to get a feel for the pattern and unit dispersal you need to accomplish it. Dayve110 added a sample picture on page 2, which isn't quite what I was after...the picture I'm trying to draw would look like a large scale of this:
-- __ -- __ -- __
Basically, picture a wave serpent. 5-6" long? Roughly the same across? Checkerboarding across the enemy backfield is putting your vehicles down in a pattern that doesn't leave enough room for a wave serpent to deploy onto the table and still be 1" away from you. IE, 6-7" gaps. I'd have to get out models and set this up to get exact dimensions...but If you have a wall of vehicles roughly 4" from the board edge, roughly 4" apart from each other(ish), and a second wall offset to the first one several inches behind the first one, there are big gaps between your vehicles, but none big enough to fit a wave serpent while staying 1" away from all your stuff. The second set of vehicles in the offset pattern don't need to flat-out to get there on turn two in most instances, so you can actually deploy infantry to help gap-fill - troops that can't be tank-shocked without ramming a vehicle in the first row....which can dodge on a 3+, and which would remove the wave serpent and its contents from play if it didn't explode your raider. If I'm motivated I'll set this up on a table and take a picture of it in the future. Reserve denial, call it the Dash Denial, whatever.
And that concludes Deployment Tactics. Deploy centrally, maximize your threat capabilities, only reserve (and alpha-strike from reserves) if you absolutely must to survive, and deny the utility of enemy reserves.
If you *do* reserve, don't attempt to seize the initiative. While first turn is preferable, if you don't get it, keep the second turn. If its an objective game you'll have the last say in controlling objectives. In a killpoint game, you'll have the last say in trying to finish off units for killpoints.
Part III: Capitalizing on speed: The best lesson I can communicate here is that theoretically knowing how fast your opponent (you) can move is not the same as accurately anticipating or reacting to it. Knowing that wyches can theoretically reach out and assault 30" away, or that trueborn can reach out 36" doesn't mean that your opponent can eyeball distance and judge accordingly to stay out of range. Alpha Strike! There are four pieces I'd like to talk about.
1. Movement to deploy for alpha-strike: Your raiders and venoms have a 12" movement, a free rotate, 2" of deployment....and then either firing or fleeting to assault. As a general rule of thumb, if exposing yourself gets you a shot or the possibility of an assault, take it. If you can move a vehicle 6" to fire the contents at a good target, take it. If your choices are 6" of movement to fire at a poor target or a 7"+ movement and disembarkation (into cover if possible of course) to fire at a better target, take the latter. While you are exposing yourself, you're creating more targets. A vehicle with trueborn in it that explodes is probably a couple of dead trueborn. An empty vehicle with trueborn deployed in cover 2" away from it is two targets instead of one; better for you by far. The only exception worthy of note...flamers. Hull-mounted flamers, chimeras with flamers in them, immolaters, and Baal Predators (and anything not listed here that can reliably get into range to kill your entire unit while ignoring cover). One of my favorite tactics when cover isn't available on a move (or terrain angle doesn't allow, such as buildings) is to use vehicles as mobile cover. If you have a squad of 5 warriors and one blaster in there...stick the blaster out front to get your 18" range shot, and space the other warriors out at the 2" coherency mark and wrap them around the vehicle so that they get cover in case they get shot at.
If you pull off your alpha-strike and neutralize a significant portion of your enemy, consider getting back into your vehicle the following turn if you can move up 6" to take shots at another target.
2. Fleeting and assaulting: Much as above in terms of capitalizing on speed. While your enemy probably can't accurately assess 30"...YOU can - in pieces. Examine where your enemy deploys in relation to their deployment edge. In turns where you don't have clear-cut borders....you only need to eyeball 6-12". Drop a dice at the base marker of the vehicle you're going to move, and move it up 12" towards your target. Eyeball whether you think you can move it or not. If you're not very good at gauging even short distances like that, then measure out 24". See where it gets you. If you want to assault a unit that you think 24-30" away and haven't learned to gauge distance yet, measure out your 24" flat out movement. You're not required to take it. In a friendly game...while legal it may incur a frown from your opponent. This guide is to teach you to castrate people in a competitive environment. Use the tools at your disposal. With practice, you'll learn to eyeball that last 12" or so accurately.
To try the assault or not: If you don't have to assault through terrain...go for it. Wyches, wracks, grotesques...whatever your assault unit is, get in that alpha-strike. If you're going to have to assault through terrain, make a judgment call. If you need 5-6" to get in the assault, its probably better to flat out your vehicle than to risk an assault you won't make. 4" or less....on 2d6, sure. If you have multiple units going after the same target, then it is situationally worth risking needing a 5-6" on 2d6 with them; someone is going to get in.
Here's an example of using your speed, open-topped vehicles, and profile to get an assault in.
You deploy on the 12" mark in a pitched battle deployment. Your enemy does the basic math. 12" move, 6" assault, possible 6" fleet, 2" disembarkation...so they disembark 3" behind their deployment line just to make sure you can't get in the alpha-strike.
You get a free rotate during your movement phase. Rotating gives a 2.5" bonus!
A 12" movement closes the distance.
You can disembark anywhere within 2" of the hull. My first model gets out as far forward as possible.
My wyches fill in, keeping the 2" disembarkation rule followed - I deploy centrally and forward to get as close as I can.
I roll for fleet...and get a six! I'm 9" from the enemy chimeras, so I need to roll at least a 3+ in order to make it into assault. But if I get even a 3", all my wyches will get into 2" of the first model, so I'll still get all my attacks.
Closest to closest - the middle chimera is my primary target. In hindsight, for ease of spreading out, I probably should have made the right chimera my primary target but I didn't.
Next I declare my secondary target - the chimera to the right, and I assault in, keeping 2" coherency with a model that has already assaulted in.
One wych fills in within 2" coherency of the first model to give me 2" of coherency range to get a tertiary assault. I chose the wych that I did (close enough to provide coherency, but not the closest to my tertiary target) to make sure that I'll be able to get in with my tertiary target here.
And now I hit my tertiary target.
And with all three of my targets assaulted, I fill in however I want - provided that each model I move gets into base contact if it can.
I throw some haywire grenades! The chimera on the left is shaken and weapon destroyed (from 4 grenades), the chimera in the middle is is shaken, weapon destroyed and immobilized (from three grenades) and the chimera on the right is stunned (from 2 grenades).
Not the best results that I could hope for, but I've neutralized two multilasers, immobilized one, none of the three of them can drop hull-flamers on me in retaliation, and if the IG player wants me dead, its going to take more than a little effort to get it done. I've got 6+ armour, 4+ Feel No Pain, and a good chance of a cover save depending on what is going to shoot at me and from where.
Honestly though, you'll find that your opponents either deploy on the line and you won't have trouble making range, or that they deploy far away to be sure (mostly in spearhead) in which case you couldn't make it anyway.
3. Armour facings: This is a big one. When your opponents move and pivot, they're trying to present front armour wherever possible (unless side armour is the same). During your enemy movement phase, take note of what moved, how far, and where its facings are. Do it again at the start of your movement phase. Don't be afraid to use your tape measure or something else to draw a line across the top of an enemy vehicle to check its armour facings. See where those armour facings extend to. If you can move into a facing to shoot side armour (AV11 or 10 instead of 12/13) then exploit it. It is extremely difficult to protect side armour against Dark Eldar, and you must be cognizant of any openings to take advantage of it.
Opponents will typically ensure their front armour is facing your current threats to their armour - there's no choice but to do so. If you're in midfield with a 12" move (or 8-12" of angle changing based on re-embarking and moving 6" with facing utility), you'll find opportunities to fire into side armour.
4. Objectives: The obvious utility of your speed is the ability to move 24" late game and jump onto an objective. I don't need to expound on this, just stay cognizant throughout the game of where your scoring units are in relation to surviving vehicles, and where both are in relation to objectives. As a close combat fighter myself, I prefer to get into an enemy's face and deny them objectives on their side of the board.
5. Physical Roadblocks: A picture is worth 1,000 words, right?
That's 120 points of empty vehicles with 4+ cover saves for moving flat out blocking off the advance of an entire mechanized Ork Army. His choices there are to split his army in half to try going around, to try ramming through (which I'll dodge on a 3+), or to stay there for a turn. Use your vehicles to deny enemy access to units you need to protect. If you're going to try assaulting something with wyches and are worried about them not making it, you can protect their flanks with vehicles. If you're in the late game and running out of troop choices, use your vehicles to physically deny access to objective(s). I've had plenty of games that ended with me having 1 objective to 0 because I had 4+ cover vehicles that need a 6 to get hit on the charge impede the progress of an enemy unit getting in to contest an objective. Drop a raider 1" away from a monolith in front of the portal - it can't pivot until it moves away from you, and will negate the ability to take a second WBB at the start of their turn because the unit can't teleport through. Don't have the tools to take down a blessed hull land raider full of terminators? Flat out three vehicles to each side and in front of it 1" away (and behind it if you can). Nothing is getting out now, and you've got 4+ cover against any retaliatory fire. Obviously you don't want to do this to the detriment of negating your fire capabilities, but remember the ability, and look for opportunities where it might apply.
That's it for my speed segment. One up your opponent on the range guesstimation, exploit armour facings where you can, block their progress, and use that massive speed to help effect your devastating alpha-strike.
Part IV: Target Prioritization This isn’t a lengthy section because much of target prioritization is situational – depending on cover, immediate threats, units in range. I can’t give “Always shoot X instead of Y” kind of ruleset, but I will do my best to help you decide what to shoot. I’m not going to focus on target prioritization for assaults because assaults often come down to “What is available for me to assault” based on the damage your darklight has done, unless we’re talking about wyches with haywire grenades, in which case the prioritization rules for shooting apply almost the same.
1. Evaluate Highest Immediate Threats: When you look at an enemy army, the first thing you should do is go through their list and models, making sure that everything is either WYSIWYG or that you understand the proxying – you *MUST* know where critical threats are to you at all times. If someone is using rhinos as proxied razorbacks with las/plas mountings, make sure it is marked in some way that when you look at it in game, you won’t forget. There will be less of this at tournaments, but I’ve been unpleasantly surprised a time or two. When people hand me a list prior to a tournament game, I tell them that I’d prefer them to walk me through their army on their tray – so that I can visualize it. Looking at a list and seeing that there is an infantry platoon with an autocannon HWT inside a chimera is different than looking at a tray of models and seeing the models and the chimera that they are going to be in.
Targets that deserve the highest priority attention as a Dark Eldar player: Hydra Flak Cannons, Vendettas, Auto/Las Predators, AC/HB Baal Predators, Land Raiders with two or more 25”+ ranged weapons, enemy ravagers, Loota units, Longfangs, devastator squads, havoc squads, rifleman dreads, high-count obliterator units, and foot-slogging IGHWTs.
BLUF: Things that can put out high strength, high volume fire are your greatest threats. There are other threats, but the greatest threats are the things that can reliably kill something every turn.
After deployment, but before you make your first move, you consider every unit the enemy is fielding, including those in reserve, and decide which are the most dangerous to you.
A couple of examples:
Example #1: Enemy Kan-Wall running 2 KFF Meks, 9x Killa-kans with rokkits, 45 Lootas, two deffkoptas (with rokkits and buzzsaws), and 3x20 shoota boyz with 3 big shootas per squad.
#1a: Lootas, highest threat. Very carefully look at deployment to see if there is even a REMOTE chance of getting 1+ Loota unit into assault on turn 1. I’d toss 5-9 wyches at 15 Lootas every day of the week. Win or lose (eventually) the Lootas aren’t firing. Every other non-vehicle weapon is probably going into the Lootas – boyz can wait.
#1b: Deffkoptas can scout and alpha-strike, but this isn’t an army I would deploy on the table against if I didn’t win the roll to go first – because it can reliably kill 5-7 of my vehicles in the first turn. Their threat is either high or low depending on deployment option, but easy to snuff out if they don’t get their alpha-strike.
#1c: Killa-kans: DE have no reliable answer for killa-kans except darklight weapons. And the kans have a 4+ cover and BS3 rokkits. They rate lower on the threat scale than Lootas or deffkoptas because they are *still* slow, can be dealt with at range, and at the end of the day…still only have BS3 rokkits.
Example #2: Enemy SW Player running triple long fangs, 4 razorbacks with grey hunters, three more razorbacks for the longfangs, two rune priests with living lightning, and a scout squad.
#2a: Longfangs, highest threat. More shots, can split fire, those three units can hit 6 targets per turn with high strength high volume fire. Every anti-infantry solution in my army is going to be 100% focused on them until every single one of them is dead. If there are only one or two left and I’ve run out of anti-infantry options, I’m going to lance and blaster them too – even over a vehicle.
#2b: Rune Priests have unlimited range STR7 Living Lightning. Whatever Longfang pack they are with, or whatever rhino or razorback they are in becomes the first vehicle target.
#2c: Still threatening but not as threatening as a full longfang pack are the razorbacks. Las/plas is the most common TAC setup (Single Lascannon along with a twin-linked plasma gun), and I value the single STR9 shot at range as less of a threat than 2a or 2b because it only gets a single shot.
This sort of target prioritization needs to happen at the start of every game – its critical to formulating your overall strategy, which at this point should be focused on a single thought: KILL KILL KILL KILL!
2. Rank Threats in Order: Something that I just jumped the gun on, but after determining what the highest threats are to you, the next order of business is to rank them mentally – from highest to lowest – of the threats to your particular army style. If you’re running a WWP army, you’ll rank threats different from a Hellion army, differently than a Wych Cult or a Kabal.
3. Compare Threats to Targets of Opportunity: Since we’re not playing in a vacuum, you can expect your opponent to expect you to prioritize their high-threat targets. So while that AutoLas Predator might be the highest threat in the army, it might also be hiding behind a vehicle screen to get a cover save. You might be bent on killing longfangs, and your enemy might leave them inside their transport to keep them save – willing to risk only taking two shots out of the hatch in exchange for keeping them alive. Having a list of the most important targets to you doesn’t mean you can go down the list shooting and assaulting them…..it just gives you a list of targets to explore for weaknesses. Can you get into side armour? Does it matter? Will that target be in assault range? How can you maneuver to get the best alpha-strike on it? This is where your generalship will shine on the field.
As you and your enemy move and shoot at each other, look for targets of opportunity. For example, if you’re focusing on some predators across the field and a Furioso dreadnought drops in on you out of a drop pod….your immediate reaction should be to look at its facings, see where it disembarks from, and look very closely for any opportunity to shoot its rear armour. It doesn’t have ranged weaponry, and you can easily stay away from it while focusing on targets across the field…..but if an opportunity exists to get a 3+ to hit, 2+ to glance on its rear armour from a couple of blaster toting Dark Eldar, take the target of opportunity. I wouldn’t waste the ammo on it from across the table until every ranged threat was dead, but if opportunity presents itself to present a target of opportunity, weigh it against the value of shooting at your priority targets. Another example: You wreck a chimera in the enemy deployment zone and 5 flamer toting veterans pile out in front of the chimera, out of cover. You’ve been saving your anti-infantry weaponry for the HWTs toting autocannons in the ruins over there. Which do you shoot at? Personally, I would probably give the flamer veterans a single salvo. Enough to potentially wipe them, or to cause the wounds for a leadership test. That’s a target of opportunity – something that isn’t the highest threat to you, but can be killed with minimal effort expended.
Use these four general rules when pursuing target priority:
A. Get a clear shot. At the expense of all else, get a clear shot. If your choice is to move in cover where your shots will grant cover saves, or to move in the open where you get clear shots, leave the cover alone and go for the maximum chance of killing something.
B. Get a Cover Save. The next priority is to get yourself cover saves. Deploy trueborn in cover if they’ll still get clear shots. Use your vehicles as mobile cover for disembarking infantry, with only a blaster poking around the front to get a clear shot.
C. Get multiple firing solutions. Ideally, you want every anti-tank weapon in your army in range and with clear sight to multiple targets. You should never presume that any given shot is going to be “the lucky one” and explode an enemy vehicle, but you also don’t want to get that lucky shot and have more shots lined up suddenly without an appropriate target to shoot at. Get those ravagers multiple targets.
D. Short range before long range. I generally shoot my close-range anti-tank before long range anti-tank, unless my short range firepower has a clear shot at something I care about that my long range firepower does not – one of the worst feelings in the world is to have a trueborn unit in an advanced deployment position and exposed (but willing to risk it to kill something critical), and for another unit to kill its target….and suddenly the trueborn unit has nothing else in range to shoot at.
And finally, a brief note on assaults: I said that I wouldn’t go in-depth because your assault targets are often a “as available” thing. If you do play a wych cult, or are packing a unit or two of wyches with haywire grenades, aim for high armour targets first, and a multi-assault second. Wyches alpha-striking a land raider or monolith would be the best use, or leman russes, predators, or other high armour targets that you can simply glance on a 2-5, ESPECIALLY squadrons.
And that concludes part IV!
Part V: Abusing Assault Mechanics
Dark Eldar don’t assault like other armies. You don’t have 5-10 terminators wielding thunderhammers and sitting on a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save. Instead, you have T3 models who are STR3 as often as not, generally have 6+ armour saves, and sometimes have feel no pain. Does that mean that my wyches wouldn’t assault a unit of terminators? Absolutely not! Instead, you you have speed, high initiative, and a murderous look in your eye. Tying up or winning assaults against units with better stats than you is reliant on your expert use of the tools you have at hand.
I’m going to insert the assaulting rules here to save you a trip through your rulebook for references.
-Your assaulting unit must move your closest model to the closest model of the enemy unit you’ve declared as your primary target.
-Every other model in the unit now has your assault distance (either 6” or the highest of 2d6) to do anything they want, provided you meet the following conditions:
-Every model that can get into base must.
-You must move into base into base with models not in base contact first.
-Independent Characters move in first when the assaulted unit reacts to an assault.
-Every model you move into assault must retain coherency with a model that has already moved in (except for the first one assaulting in of course).
Defenders react uses the same rules – everyone who can get into base must do so, and unengaged (or models not in base contact already) take precedent. With those things in mind, here are some nifty tricks.
1. Hiding your HQ: So your wyches rolled a 6 for their combat drug for a free pain token, and they have a haemonculi along for the ride. They have feel no pain and furious charge! That is…unless you follow standard thinking and break the wyches off, in which case the haemonculi takes a pain token with him. Or, Baron Sathonyx is about to lead a full beast unit into the assault for 40 STR4 attacks and 24 STR3 rending attacks! The baron gives the beasts assault grenades, and you know that you’re going to win combat, then sit in cover with a 3+ save and defensive grenades so you can laugh off your opponent’s following turn. Except that you know the powerfist is going to take a shot at Baron Sathonyx, and he ALWAYS fails his Shadowfield on the first roll.
Fear not! Just because you're required to move everyone into base who can doesn’t mean that the IC is required to be in combat range. There’s nothing wrong with letting Baron Sathonyx trail at the rear of the unit, such that a 6” assault move won’t get him into base contact. You can also stick him in the middle rear so that he’ll be flanked by beasts – so that enemy pile-in moves won’t make it to him either. The same applies to your haemonculi. If you need a haemonculi with a unit but don’t want him getting insta-gibbed, leave him at the trailing end of the unit. Measure out 2” coherency and stick him at the very rear of where you are going.
Example: 5 terminators are sitting in the explosion marker for a land raider. You roll up with a raider full of wyches knowing that you’re going to need to 2d6 to get into terrain. Bear in mind that this is just an example. The wyches get out on the right side of the raider with the terminators straight ahead – 2” deployment from the raider puts you 1” away from the terminators…but only put your first model there. Since the terminators are going to have a 6” react to contact, you have 6” to play with. String your models out 7-8” with the haemonculi in the back next to the raider…he’s now 8-9” away from the terminators.
When you assault 2d6 into the terminators:
If you roll 1,1 – you get into base contact because you’re 1” away. The terminators have 6” to pile in, and can’t make it the 8” to your haemonculi. But the assault rules *do* make them pile down the line so that the rest of your wyches are engaged.
If you roll anything else: Your haemonculi assaults in first – but he’s further than 6” away so can’t make it. Move him up along the raider 6” (or 2d6 highest, whichever): The pile the rest of your wyches in. You’ve now walled off the terminators from getting to your haemonculi.
The same applies to the Baron or any HQ that you don’t want to risk in CC. Obviously the results for this aren’t guaranteed to keep your IC safe in subsequent rounds of combat, but it can keep them safe on the charge, or in getting charged – and *can* keep you safe in subsequent turns if you have enough models and remove casualties in such a way that 6” pile in with your IC still won’t get them into base contact.
2. Conga Lines and multi-assaults: Who hasn't seen an infantry conga line? A wall of IG infantry protecting HWTs or vehicles. A gretchin unit screening Lootas. A line of marines squeezing between terrain and in a column formation. Look for opportunities to assault or multi-assault a conga line - the 6" pile-in will benefit you if they can only fit in a few models. If there are a line of guardsmen spread 24” across the front of their army, assault one corner of it. Put yourself 6” away on your fleet (or about 5.5” or as close as you can judge) so that on the assault, you get a single guardsman – but the rest of your models will be within 2” of your assaulting model. As he piles down the line to get into combat….only a couple of his models are going to get to hit you back. It will be bloody.
One of my favorite anti-IG tactics is to move my assault units up, disembark, and work on taking down a chimera next to the target I want to assault - if I can explode it, then I try to fleet up 1" away from my target, declare primary on the vehicle I’m going to assault, secondary on the troops in the exploded transport, and tertiary on any other vehicle I can reach. Ideally, I want to put one wych into the infantry unit and the rest of my wyches into vehicles. Boom – if I managed to explode/wreck a transport I’m in close combat and safe from countering fire. Assaulting a vehicle with haywire grenades, killing it, and having the passengers flame your unit to death the next turn is bad. Or having nearby vehicles turn hull-flamers on you – also bad. Drop a single wych into close combat on a multi-assault so that you’re not likely to hurt or wipe the unit so that you can stay locked up for a turn – long enough for you to pile in and wipe them out on your turn so that you can go back out and do more damage.
Another good use of multi-assaults is against hard targets. So the Avatar if Khaine is hiding behind a building, you can’t get to him with your dark lances or blasters because he’s on his hands and knees groveling behind LOS blocking terrain. There’s a big squad of dire avengers next to him. Assaulting the Avatar would be painful because of his WS and toughness. Instead, multi-assault! Drop wych into the Avatar and the rest of them into the dire avengers. Kill 10 dire avengers, lose 2 wyches to the avatar’s attacks, and you’ve won by 8. And the avatar takes 8 wounds and needs to make 8 saves – more than if you had assaulted him by himself. Splinter weapons have made high toughness targets a joke, but sometimes you need assault options.
General rules for this point: If you’re going to assault vehicles, tie into an infantry unit if you can, and assault Conga-lines from an end.
3. Denying attacks: *YOU* can conga-line too, and against the same targets. When you’re making an assault move, you should always be looking for an angle of assault that will let as few enemy models get into base or coherency as possible. I mentioned this earlier, but assault spacing and fleet movements are critical. Any opportunity to assault where you can make your full assault move and only get ONE model into base contact, but the rest of your unit in coherency with that one model while your enemy pile-in moves won’t get much engaged with you – that’s the pinnacle of strategic achievement in assault.
Also worthy of note: There’s no requirement attached to the order that you move your models, as long as you’re not moving through your own models. Pictures would be helpful here but I have none to show at the moment. How often do you get assaulted, and your pile in move brings more enemy models into engagement? Orks live and die by it. You can deny some of this – as you take your full 6” pile-in move, look for opportunities to move troops into base, or piling in where they would block off access of other models of yours getting further down the line and bringing more enemy models into the fight. A 6” pile-in with a wych might get you into an unengaged model of the enemy down the line, but if you block off the wych’s ability to get there in 6” by piling in other models first – to their own maximum 6” and following the assault rules for piling in…you can deny attacks.
Just keep looking for those angles. Use your movement to try creating enemy columns if they aren’t already doing it. Space marines disembarking from a rhino get out in a column half the time from the side. Boom – pull up next to the and park a raider 1” away from them (parallel parking) to block them between their rhino and your raider. Pile out wyches and assault the head of the column. You can pile around your lead two wyches, but the marines are stuck in a column of two, and are going to get 6 marines into the assault instead of 10.
I apologize for my examples, they aren’t the only situations, or even the best ones to use certain tactics in, but they fit the description of what I’m seeing in my head as best as I can make them. Here's an example of the situation I just described.
In this picture, a raider pulls up next to a squad of marines. I check 1" spacing to make sure that I'm 1" away. I could be a bit closer, and I fix it in a later picture; Vassal is annoying to freely rotate models. The wyches disembark below - all within 2" of the raider, but not trying to get up in the marine's junk. Their disembarkation doesn't matter in this instance, but I'm deploying away to show my point of the conga line, which I'll explain shortly.
I roll for fleet and get a 4" movement, and fleet away from the Marines to put myself at maximum assault distance. At least I'm somewhere between 5-6" away, I'm not good at precision eyeballing.
Now I'm ready for an assault. My closest model has to move to the closest enemy model. That's a 6" bubble and it looks like I'm about 4.8" away with my closest model.
And now I've assaulted. Closest model to closest model. I have one more model that can get into base contact, so I do. Everyone else piles into the rear.
Defenders react. With me being 1" away, they pile in the best they can, which is not much. Everyone within 2" of someone in base can attack (see the blue circles) meaning that I've denied 4 marines from getting their attacks. Obviously since I'm I6 I'm going to attack first, and if the marine player takes casualties, he'll pull from the back to mitigate his inability to attack. However, if there's a powerfist or a power weapon back there - something with a better chance of hurting me, bwah ha ha. Suck it Trebek.
Bonus: Disruptive Psychology
This final piece of my article deals with disrupting your enemy’s plans and messing with their heads. Don’t be foolish enough to think that psychology isn’t part of 40k. Your own psychology (if you have followed my guide) is a single-minded unstinting focus on absolute lethality. You know what your threats are in order of danger, you have a plan in mind to deal with them, and you’ve analyzed your enemy’s army, the table and terrain to create your plan for tabling their army and making them question the validity of their existence and participation in the hobby.
Your enemy is doing all the same things you are.
Disruptive psychology is the art of making your enemy second-guess themselves, lose focus and make mistakes to your advantage. You could even call it a facet of social engineering. A smirk at a critical moment can change the course of a game. They key to this is to make comments or facial expressions designed to make your opponent believe that they either just made a mistake, are about to make a mistake, or just did something favorable to you (even if it isn’t). Some examples:
Example #1: You roll for deployment option with your opponent and lose. It is an objective game, and he gives you first turn. You deploy accordingly. Your opponent deploys in response. He picks up the dice to roll to seize, and you look at him with shock and say, “Wait, you WANT to go first? I was figuring you wanted the last say-so on who controls the objectives at the end of the game.” In reality, you know that he’s not going to be alive at the end of the game, and you also know that getting seized on will negatively impact your alpha-strike. You want to go first to make sure you inflict maximum possible damage and couldn’t care less about objectives. Part of the time, your opponent will put their dice back down – they only picked it up out of habit. Part of the time, they will say “I thought seizing the initiative was mandatory” and you can show them them it is not. And part of the time, they will roll anyway. In two of those scenarios, you’ve just gained a significant advantage.
Example #2: Your opponent is playing Mechanized Blood Angels and has six predators. As they’re deploying their Baal predators with flamestorm cannons near the front to scout/smoke and try living through whatever you do so that they can flame your wyches/beasts or anything else they can shoot out of a transport, you look at them with a bit of amusement and ask, “So you’re NOT going to outflank those?” Your opponent will have to think about it. Do they really want to risk losing their baal predator before it ever gets to shoot? It only take a single darklight shot to explode it…and you have SO MANY darklight weapons. Sometimes it will stay out…sometimes it will go into reserve. In reality, whether you could have exploded it or not is irrelevant. With a speedy list of your own, it was probably a turn 2 threat anyway unless you were wanting to move up and disembark trueborn to get shots. If it goes into reserve, its now a threat that you don’t have to worry about until turn 2. Or three. Or four. Until after you’ve had your way with everything else out there.
Example #3: Your opponent deploys a unit where you will have difficulty getting it. Or to it. Or getting LOS to it. Smirk and cover your mouth. Either they’ll think that putting their model there is a mistake and second-guess themselves, or they’ll think that you’re complimenting their tactical prowess. Either way, it’s a shot at stealing some of their confidence.
Example #4: Enemy unit or transport is moving up into assault range – a fight you may or may not win, but definitely not to your advantage to get assaulted. Smile wickedly, chuckle, and say, “This will be fun.” Your opponent will second-guess the wisdom of assaulting you, start crunching the numbers in their head, re-look at their unit locations and yours…
The goal here isn’t necessarily to get your opponent change their mind, but to lose their game-face and second-guess themselves. 40k isn’t just army vs. army, it is also player vs. player. The opportunities that you have to inject doubt into your opponent’s strategy are things you’re going to have to find and exploit, because everyone is different. But if you can tell that your opponent is struggling to make a decision about what action to take…inject some doubt if they make the one that would hurt you more.
And that’s it! The end of my advanced tips and tricks. Your army (via links at the top or other DE list discussions) has the tools to take down any army impudent and foolish enough to take the field against you. Now you have guidelines on how to use those tools to maximum effect, with the added benefit of turning your opponent into a quivering pile of self-doubt and eventual self-loathing.
Go forth now my minions – torture, enslave, and feast on the cattle that come willingly to your slaughter.
*EDIT #29*
So some of the chat elsewhere about how 40k doesn't really have any advanced tactics, its all about luck, its not a deep game, general disparaging remarks designed to dismiss people like me who feel that skill is the supreme deciding factor in 40k instead of dice rolls....well, I don't buy it (obviously). I think I'm pretty damned good manipulating toy plastic soldiers. Everything above is intermediate tactics - not the kind of thing that novice generals generally play at a skill level to incorporate. For giggles, I thought I'd include a particularly advanced tactic.
Shock Prows: Abusing the Tank Shock
Dark Eldar vehicles have a pointy prow. Did you know that you can use that to abuse tank shocks to gain particularly advantageous assaults? For example...9 wyches assaulting into 30 boyz and only two getting to strike back? Here's an example.
This mob of Ork boyz is relaxing after a hard day's work choppin' da grazz with dey choppas.
Dark Eldar Raider tank shocks into the unit - taking great care to avoid the powerklaw. In my experience, Orks wouldn't DoG anyway and risk their powerklaw, especially being fearless, and with you presenting a ripe assault target right on top of them. This requires some precision tank shocking. You need to be able to position and rotate your vehicle in such a way that you push the orks backwards instead of being able to circle around your raider. Remember that a tank shocked unit must take the SHORTEST POSSIBLE ROUTE to get 1" away from the enemy unit - so your tank shock needs to make it such that the shortest route is backwards, and not forward onto the other side of the raider. 1/2" backwards is shorter than 1.5" forward.
At the end of the tank shock, the orks have all moved the shortest route possible to get 1" away from the raider.
Tank shock #2: The second raider neatly bisects the ork unit, still avoiding the Powerklaw. Again - my experience says that Ork players would choose not to DoG and risk losing their bosspole and powerklaw...but I prefer to not take chances.
Again, forcing every ork to retain 1" distance from enemy models while maintaining 2" coherency. There was one ork that was on the border about which side was closer to go to, but Vassal doesn't give you effective tools to minutely move and rotate models. It wouldn't matter either way - if the second ork had come through to the other side, you still could have manipulated the assault to only hit one model (I demonstrated that principle earlier in the thread).
And here's a unit of wyches disembarking from their own raider in preparation for assault. In terms of determining the precise distance if you aren't good at eyeballing 6", I covered that earlier too.
Wyches assault in: One model is in base contact, and one model is within 2" coherency - and the orks can't do anything about it - the gap between the raiders is too small to let further orks through.
Random D6 gives me a 5 for drugs (+1 attack)
Random D6 for the Hydra Gauntlet gives me a 1 (boo!)
A quick roll through vassal with 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound says...8 wounds. Orks roll 6+ saves and fail 7.
In return, the Ork boy strikes back needing 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound and does 0 wounds.
The Ork nob strikes back needing 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound and does 1 wound.
I roll a 4+ invulnerable save and fail.
I won by 6! 5-6 more orks die, and we're locked - with no pile in moves available for the time being - leaving it 8 wyches vs the horde of orks, of which only two will get to attack.
I think that I am the winningest 40k player in the world. I've traveled coast to coast in the U.S.
A good conclusion, assuming that by world you mean the United States of America. Don't be ashamed though: A lot of countries name their national competitions 'World Championships' for no apparent reason except to make themselves feel better.
I've no doubt that this article series will be helpful to new DE players. It's a good read for other people too. Atleast I find the idea of you 'visualizing violence' before every battle absolutely hilarious. You're the ultimate fighter of the toy soldier scene
Look folward to seeing the articles. However, the tactica wont last that long, given GW's continual changing of the the game editions every 3-5 years....might become obsolete when 6th comes soon....
carmachu wrote:Look folward to seeing the articles. However, the tactica wont last that long, given GW's continual changing of the the game editions every 3-5 years....might become obsolete when 6th comes soon....
I don't think so hes writing about things that will never change for Dar Eldar ( if they do were a different army) The mindset behind playing the race. Speed, in your face, low T, usually specialized models and the mindset you need to have to win with those tools.
I'm sure this is going to be a Great Source of Tactical Advice, once it's gets kicked off, as Dash is a great 40k Player.
On that note, Dash, I really wish you could leave out some of the chest thumping. You know that every thread, people are going to come, and pick at it, as it Irks a lot of people. When that happens, your threads start to lose their focus, and the important message and invaluable tactical advice that you dispense. You give great advice, but it really hampers the discussion(And thread as a whole) when people start bickering over your comments about being the "Winningist" player.
You give great advice Dash, I think a lot of it gets lost, and a lot of people get antagonized at some of those comments.
Definitely like the threads you linked. As a soon-to-be dark eldar player, it helped me skip several steps and see how many of the units should work in conjunction with each other. Now it's a matter of learning to put it into practice! Looking forward to seeing the target prioritization threads and how to maximize assault mechanics. I can think of several ways those two tips will be very helpful.
There is some good advice here, the best I can think of for dark eldar players who want to win is... get a new Army! LOL! I do really like some of your units though. Therion or whoever, take it down a notch, the guy is just trying to put something across... now having said that, Dash, you'd find people a little more receptive if you stop coming off so concieted and full of yourself. If you just said, I'm a fairly successful Dark Eldar Player, who finds these things to be successful, people would listen... instead you come off as kind of a jerk, who spends a good deal of time bragging about himself. Just my two cents.
Hmmm guess next time Dash is in the Cali, Riverside area Chaos will have to give his DA a ruff spanking and wegdy. After all the DA do like their spankings, and Dash bashing is only good if done in proper humor and form. Jumpin on the man every post he makes is well....creepy
Bleakz87 wrote:
I don't think so hes writing about things that will never change for Dakr Eldar ( if they do were a different army) The mindset behind playing the race. Speed, in your face, low T, usually specialized models and the mindset you need to have to win with those tools.
Given his witch tatica thread in this forum, good chances are they might change- look at 4th to 5th. Mindset is one thing, but thats only one part of his tactica, one part in five to be precise. Not everything will survive edition change
I will look forward to the articles on how to play DE. Not just for how to play them but learning how others play them will help counter them.
Off topic slightly.
Also I've never heard of you or seen you Dash other than on Dakka Dakka. In Sacramento, CA there is a tourny with 90+ players every other month. So 6 tournies a year, not to mention a 120 players tourny this year in Sept.
Want to see some good players for 40k hit the Sacramento area.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:I will look forward to the articles on how to play DE. Not just for how to play them but learning how others play them will help counter them.
Off topic slightly.
Also I've never heard of you or seen you Dash other than on Dakka Dakka. In Sacramento, CA there is a tourny with 90+ players every other month. So 6 tournies a year, not to mention a 120 players tourny this year in Sept.
Want to see some good players for 40k hit the Sacramento area.
Hey I am from Northern Cali too. That Sac tournament is brutal. If anyone thinks they are a good toy soldier general go to the Sac tournament and you will be humbled. They fill up fast so register early.
Good points on setting up the mentality of a dark eldar player. Having played dark eldar, I do admit that I have a bit of the eldar arrogance when playing but you are correct in asserting to think as a ruthless commander. Besides it is fluffy to do so because of playing dark eldar.
However I do think your statement of winningest player may be false. Marc Parker has won 6 GTs and Greg Sparks has won multiple GT level events all having quality players and that is just to name a few multi national event winners. But a nice try at the boast, if you want to call yourself the best player then you might have some merit in that statenent.
I would love to read your opinions on what are the main weaknesses of dark eldar and why you lost the two games. Your winning percentage is very high and I think very few can make such a claim. Knowing the weaknesses and why you lost a couple games is just as valuable as your concepts on winning in my opinion. I think we learn the most when we lose as it forces us to re-evaluate our choices and decisions.
I actually decided to read the tactics forum again for the first time in months.. Is it possible to get more real tactics and less <Insert all posts after first>?
Im always up for reading actual good advice.. My internal filter can edit out bragging, etc but its hard to filter out an ENTIRE thread
Afrikan Blonde wrote:I would love to read your opinions on what are the main weaknesses of dark eldar and why you lost the two games. Your winning percentage is very high and I think very few can make such a claim. Knowing the weaknesses and why you lost a couple games is just as valuable as your concepts on winning in my opinion. I think we learn the most when we lose as it forces us to re-evaluate our choices and decisions.
In my opinion, the sole and shining weakness of Dark Eldar is getting shot at; thus the phrase "Glass Cannon." Mechanized IG are the biggest threat to Dark Eldar because they can simply outshoot the Dark Eldar at every turn....and it doesn't take much math to compare multi-lasers to Dark Lances.
Three BS3 shots that hit on 4+ and glance on 4+ against an open-topped target vs. one BS4 shot that hits on a 3+ and glances on a 4+. And they have as many vehicles. Mechanized Blood Angels hurt too.
My two losses with Dark Eldar:
1. I lost a game last May during Game 5 of the SoCal Slaughter in Space against Dave Faye. To be honest, I didn't do anything tactically wrong, I was just so drunk (I was expecting to play Hulksmash and had decided to get drunk to lessen the pain) that we didn't get through our game. When the game ended on turn 3-4, I was down by one KP; Dave had two weaponless immobilized rhinos and a single plague marine left from a squad (he had some other stuff alive too) but not getting those KP hurt.
2. In December at the annual "Win an 1850 Army of your Choice" tournament in Georgia, I faced Alan Blakeborough in Game 2. Dark Eldar vs. Mechanized IG - straight up Mech IG. I won the roll to go first, deployed accordingly, and had the initiative seized on me. The game was over before he finished his first turn, it was simply a turkey-shoot.
I don't count local RTTs. I used to, but picked up so much flak for "faking my win record" that I decided to relegate my signature solely to events that were large Metro events, GTs, or drew regional attention (like 'Ard Boyz, and the previously mentioned "Win an 1850 Army" tournament).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mustela wrote: Mr. Mohlie might be a real great player, but I don't see him posting threads...
Indeed. My time on Dakka is pretty much 100% dedicated to tactics and army lists, trying to help coach people. There are a lot of great players out there. Some of them even try helping less-experienced or skilled people gain in ability. I'd wager I'm the only one who is willing to try punching through the morass of mostly garbage to make themselves heard though.
Much of my recent barrage of posting was inspired by this:
Ketara wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:I've been looking over the plethora of threads being created for the new GK, and it looks like people are already going over things and establishing a few key units and strong interactions within the Codex. In general, the same holds true for most other Codices-- everybody who does a little reading can easily know about all kinds of armies used by the other Codices in competitive play, both generically (razorspam or dual-LR armies exist in what, five Codices now?) and specifically-- BA has AV13 spam and DoA, SW has TWC/Long Fang lists, SM has Vulkan mech and bikers, IG has "leafblower," Straken mechvets, and foot horde, and so on. All these lists are pretty well-established and it's not too difficult to find examples of these lists with a little effort. You can probably even pull up battle reports for any of these forces and get a good idea of how they play on the table.
However, I've noticed that this doesn't really hold true for Codex: Tyranids and Codex: Dark Eldar. I know there are good Tyranid and Dark Eldar players out there-- I've played against some, in fact-- but for some reason the general Internet knowledge about what is and isn't good doesn't seem to be there for these Codices. Why is that? Do people just use these armies less out there? Are they just worse in competitive play? I highly doubt the latter is true-- Dark Eldar seem extremely competitive, to the point where probably a strict majority of the new and shiny Grey Knights lists I've seen out there don't have any plausible answer to a correctly-run Dark Eldar army-- but that knowledge still seems to be missing. What do you guys think is behind this?
Because to be perfectly frank, there aren't many competent DE generals out there, and their advice is so drowned out by the waves of mediocre or terrible advice, we just don't bother trying anymore.
Pre-new codex, there was only me and a few others (Clthomps, Thor666, Dash, etc), who actually knew how to play DE well on a competitive level. But that was fine, because requests for that advice were few and far between, and between us, we had pretty much all the different styles of play with the army list down pat.
These days, ever since the new codex came out, any request for help with a DE list is immediately mobbed by a dozen posters, of which probably half of which don't even play the army, three of the remaining six make nonsensical suggestions, and the last three know enough to make a mediocre/vaguely decent contribution, but aren't familiar enough with the playstyle, or listbuilding to be in a position to be attending tournaments, or writing tacticas.
The result being that under such a morass of crud, most of us don't even bother anymore. Thor is barely seen, Dash can't be arsed to compete for the attention, clthomps disappeared as of last year, and I simply can't work up the energy anymore.
I did an initial writeup when the codex first came out, which whilst I now consider it to be wrong on many, many accounts, of decent enough quality in and of itself(which I still get PM's for DE advice and help from). But now I've gained the knowledge with which to go back and write a decent series of tactics articles on the new list, I simply cannot work up the motivation.
In other words, the reason for the lack of decent DE tactics and strategy is simply because pretty much all the quality DE players cannot be bothered to try and shout through the throng of terrible and mediocre players that started playing in the last four months giving their opinions.
Having said that, I've noticed one or two of the newer players beginning to grope their way to the beach of competency out of the pool of general mediocrity, but ultimately what they're lacking is general experience with the playstyle. Give it a year, and I reckon those players will have flourished enough, and the general hubbub over the relatively new codex will have died down enough for the conversation on the codex to become interesting once again though.
Thanks for the feedback Dash. Would you care to expound on that and offer up what you would consider good advice for dark eldar players to beat armies such as mechanized Blood Angels and Imperial Guard? What has worked the best for you?
I write this first because it is the most important. Mentally visualize how every enemy vehicle is going to explode. How you are going to viciously table your opponent without taking a single casualty. Completely focus your thoughts on utterly annihilating your enemy from the table. And they ARE your enemy. For the 2-2.5 hours of the game, your friend/opponent/stranger is NOT your friend. They were rude enough to challenge your supremacy on the table-top, and deserve extinction. Every tank you kill should send a joyous thrill through your temporarily black heart. Every model you kill is your enemy’s just desserts for the sheer audacity in wasting your time. When you enter a tournament, you should be morally outraged that they didn’t just hand you the prize support at the beginning to save them humiliation at your hands on the table top, and trembling with anticipation to repay such an insult with a vengeance.
Spoken Like a true Eldar.
I actually love the way you portrayed the mentality of winning a game in the same way Eldar themselves portray warfare. It is actually quite amusing :-)
Gone a few hours to church and all H*ell breaks loose, dang I like Dash's one liners they make me feel like living each day. DE tactics and such are very usful as Dash is the house expert enough said there. Bashing the Dasher is just as wrong as Elves and Orcs living together, come on "Can't we all just get along" lol. My time to face Dash will come soon enough as everyone knows Chaos Rules and you all Drool". Lets keep everything on a happy note, we are all human and talk a little much at times, lets hear what the Dash man has to say.
So, are you basically taking the mindset that you will be going for the table every time? Are there no circumstances where the enemy may have a strong Troop, in a defendable scoring position, and be protecting it in a way such that all-out assault is uncertain, leaving capturing more objectives a better plan?
Awesome read so far Dash, posting to show you some support, you're one of the reasons I started Dark Eldar.
I've read your topic on Mech IG hard-countering DE, but I'm assuming in your 60+ wins with them that you've played them quite a few times. What are your strategies when playing them, and how do you manage to pull out wins against such a hard counter?
Great thread so far Dash Hopefully it won't get derailed too badly so I won't have to check through pages and pages of people whining to get to the good stuff
As all the good DE Generals have stated, Dark Eldar are unforgiving, especially against a competent or good opponent. If your oppenent dictates the battle, your done, you might as well concede. If you make a mistake that your opponent can capitalize on, your done. Dark Eldar is an army that does not allow mistakes. So for someone like Dash, or Ketara, or Thor, who have taken Dark Eldar, both old and new codex, and won at some of the bigger Tournaments in the 40k scene, they have earned the right to brag about themselves, IMHO. If you don't like it, well hey, don't read what they post. But its a waste of time for a new Dark Eldar player to go to a thread like Dash's, where they could get some really sound advice about building a competitive army, to have to sort through 4 pages of "Dash you shouldn't say this" and "Dash, you shouldn't act like that." If you don't like his ego, you really can do only one thing to change it, and that is beat him at his own game. Take him up on his challenges on VASSAL, or go up against him at a Tourney. Other than that, no matter whether you like his ego or not, its not like he is going to change his ways because you posted that he shouldn't say how winning he is. So why not just leave it alone? Read the advice and comment on that, instead of his perceived "attitude"?
Personally, Dash has helped me tweak a competition list to almost perfection, along with help from Ketara. (Still trying to get Thor to look at it, but hey, I have yet to send him a PM, so that is on me, not him. ) Without Dash's and Ketara's advice, I would still be running things that have no place at a Grand Tourney level, because I was basing all of 40k off my local metagame, and that will hurt Dark Eldar if they only learn whats around them.
I am temporarily locking this thread to clean it out.
Unlocked.
DAKKANAUTS TAKE NOTICE IF YOU PLEASE
As a mod with a specific interest in the 40k Tactics Sub-Forum, I am very protective of threads that offer actual tactical advice. This is one such thread. If you want to post in this thread, please consider that your post should contribute to the discussion of DashofPepper's tactical advice. Any further comment with regard to how truly and incredibly awesome or unbelievably immature and arrogant DoP might be is not welcome in this thread and will be deleted. Consider this a polite moderator warning. Any further off-topic comments will result in suspensions without further warning.
First i'd like to thank you for starting this thread and i'd like to thank Manchu for re-establishing order. I wasn't posting in this thread anymore.
My post comes with a question regarding the PART 1 - Getting the mood straight.
Do you recommend music?
What kind of music?
In my local gaming Club we keep background music for everyone gaming, do you think my "Dark Eldar Mood" can be affected by those?
Greetings!
I've had several people PM me asking if I was joking about the mood, but I wasn't. On the way to a tournament, I try listening to Rammstein. I'd say that the "ultimate" getting your mind right for a fight would be "Determined" by Mudvayne. Check the song out on youtube if you haven't heard it before.
@murdog: Yes, I take the mindset of going for the tabling every game. Glass cannons aren't meant to weather damage while holding objectives, they're meant to annihilate enemies to make it a non-issue. In terms of specifically fighting against Dark Eldar - it has much to do with what I'm going to be writing about in the next segments.
@Afrikan Blonde: Beating hard counter lists are a matter of your list, your tabletop tactics, and precision gaming - and unfortunately, a bit of luck. Not necessarily good luck, but these are the games where you *really* need luck to not F you in the A. The precision gaming bits are going to get outlined in more detail in parts 2-5.
@Dakkafang: I realize that not everyone knows who I am. My forum signature exists to try helping people who don't know who I am assign a value to the advice I give. In case I've caused confusion with my notes about traveling, my intent isn't to hit every big tournament in the country - its to find the best players, and play against them. That isn't a guarantee at a tournament, especially at a big tournament like yours that isn't the Nova Format, which is still no guarantee. I have no interest in flying to Europe to play in tournaments, but I *do* track down people who consistently win/dominate and solicit private games with them. By the same token, attending a tournament in California is of less value to me than knowing who the best players in California are and trying to get in a game with them.
.....And I think that addresses everything people asked questions about.
Dashofpepper wrote:
Yes, I take the mindset of going for the tabling every game. Glass cannons aren't meant to weather damage while holding objectives, they're meant to annihilate enemies to make it a non-issue. In terms of specifically fighting against Dark Eldar - it has much to do with what I'm going to be writing about in the next segments.
Would you say that the only possible way to play DE is to abandon any objectives of your own and just to steal your opponent's? It seems like the tactic is self explanatory in Annihilation games, but in Capture and Control as well as Seize Ground there's a good chance that there'll be objectives in your deployment zone, although I suppose if you really wanted to you could throw them up as close to the enemy as possible, while still conforming to the rules governing the placement of objectives.
I guess that any DE list is going to be fast enough that you don't need to worry about the objectives until turn 5 at any rate, when you can zip by with whatever vehicles you still have left to contest or claim objectives. Of course, if you've tabled the opponent before this it won't be necessary, but there's always the chance that your opponent is tough enough to weather your attacks and deal with you evenly.
Assuming that you intend to murk your opponent on the first turn, how would a list like this hold up at 1500 points?
Haemonculus x 3
Haemonculus x 3
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Nightwatch wrote:
Assuming that you intend to murk your opponent on the first turn, how would a list like this hold up at 1500 points?
Haemonculus x 3
Haemonculus x 3
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
shock prows? seriously? Tankshock and ram them to death?
No power weapons or even venom blades. How are you going to deal with terminators or plague marines. sure they may be tarpitted for a while but you wont win. eventually they will break through.
Nightwatch wrote:
Assuming that you intend to murk your opponent on the first turn, how would a list like this hold up at 1500 points?
Haemonculus x 3
Haemonculus x 3
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Wyches x 9, Hydra Gauntlets x1, Raider, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
Ravager, Shock Prow
shock prows? seriously? Tankshock and ram them to death?
No power weapons or even venom blades. How are you going to deal with terminators or plague marines. sure they may be tarpitted for a while but you wont win. eventually they will break through.
Agreed.
A couple Shock Prows are good tactical additions (although not as much in a list with no Jetfighters/Liquifiers). Nine of them is overkill.
Dash wrote:In my opinion, the sole and shining weakness of Dark Eldar is getting shot at; thus the phrase "Glass Cannon." Mechanized IG are the biggest threat to Dark Eldar because they can simply outshoot the Dark Eldar at every turn....and it doesn't take much math to compare multi-lasers to Dark Lances.
I agree 100%, as a Dark Eldar player I usually get 1st turn (Thank you Baron) and use that first turn to make sure I'm out of range of return fire and I neutralize all my ranged threats. Thats why IG are such a disgusting matchup...they have the same range (or higher!) of my guns, and stupid multilasers are better anti-tank vs a raider than a lascannon.
But personally I listen to Marilyn Manson to get pumped, listen to the song "Tourniquet" from Antichrist Superstar or "The Fight Song" from Holy Wood, always motivational for some killing!
I just listened to The Fight Song (and watched the video) for it.....and it didn't do it for me.
On a sidenote, I'm half-done with the Deployment part. I had a crazy day today at work so didn't get to it. Nuclear construction, owed a customer 1.2 million in invoices for Purchase Orders that we hadn't written yet, running between purchasing and quality and engineering....getting signatures, stuff written, system updates...this week has been very stressful. Taking the day off tomorrow, poker game at my house tomorrow night with friends, it'll get done.
Great thread dash, I'd like to see more "hardcore competitive guides to winning with army x" threads. I think we have a lot of great threads around about random tactics and lists but its great to be able to pick the brain of someone who is pretty close to being a professional gamer. I look forward to reading your future threads on DE
Okay, I can see how your tactic can make you win, but it really doesn't look like a good way to go about it. You speak of being gentlemanly about the whole thing yet your methods are beardy and mentality devoid of any conscience.
Oh sure chalk it up as 'gettin in the mood' but really its a win first fun second approach. IMO any list that spams or any rule bashing that requires you to carry photocopies of an obscure article to wave in your opponents face is just pitiful. Do you play any online FPS games? They have something called Spawn Camping which is a tactic favoured by the 'must-wins' while completely ruining the experience for everyone else, and its exactly what you describe here. Some people do it because they dont care, others because they think if they can they should, when if you want to be a real sportsman and a real general you'll defeat your opponent on their strengths and yours.
People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.
Dicelowly wrote:Okay, I can see how your tactic can make you win, but it really doesn't look like a good way to go about it. You speak of being gentlemanly about the whole thing yet your methods are beardy and mentality devoid of any conscience.
Oh sure chalk it up as 'gettin in the mood' but really its a win first fun second approach. IMO any list that spams or any rule bashing that requires you to carry photocopies of an obscure article to wave in your opponents face is just pitiful. Do you play any online FPS games? They have something called Spawn Camping which is a tactic favoured by the 'must-wins' while completely ruining the experience for everyone else, and its exactly what you describe here. Some people do it because they dont care, others because they think if they can they should, when if you want to be a real sportsman and a real general you'll defeat your opponent on their strengths and yours.
People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.
Wow.
1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.
2. This thread is not about how to create a fun game for your opponent. I established that much in the OP. It is about how to be vicious, how to kill, and how to win. Did you not see Manchu's post? If all you have to offer to this thread is "OMG BEARDY CHEETER WAAC!" Feel free to not post here anymore.
This is not a thread about debating friendly play styles. This is a thread about competitive play. If you don't have questions or comments about the particular tactics discussed then simply move along.
Dashofpepper wrote:
1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.
I think he was talking about the FAQ here, the one that explains the rules for reserves moving onto the board and if they're blocked. I'd say that was more of a rules clarification than an actual rules change though, as the rulebook is blank on that respect and doesn't explain what to do in such a circumstance. Although, the FAQ is by no means an obscure article either, and any competitive tournament has to have some sort of ruling on those issues, whether they use GW's FAQs and Errata or even the INAT.
Dash, have you ever had problems with people over the FAQs? I'm not much of a tournament-goer myself, but I can imagine that there would be a lot of anxiety about that sort of thing, specifically on issues like the reserves one mentioned before.
*EDIT* And of course, I forgot the actual reason for my post: I really enjoyed Part 2, especially now that there are pictures. I'm a little confused about the "Checkerboard pattern" you mentioned earlier though. The way I understand what you said, you rush all your skimmers to your opponent's table edge, and orient them in such a way that it is impossible for the other army to move LESS than 12" to get onto the board, therefore taking away all chances of him shooting later on.
The thing is, how would you be able to do this? if the board is 6 feet long, you're going to need a heck of a lot of raiders and ravagers to accomplish this.
Part II looks good. It again focuses on the fact that the army is build to table and explains in depth the choices you face during deployment when facing an enemy.
I'd like to hear answers as to how an opponent could answer the DE strategy DoP listed.
Dashofpepper wrote:
1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.
I think he was talking about the FAQ here, the one that explains the rules for reserves moving onto the board and if they're blocked. I'd say that was more of a rules clarification than an actual rules change though, as the rulebook is blank on that respect and doesn't explain what to do in such a circumstance. Although, the FAQ is by no means an obscure article either, and any competitive tournament has to have some sort of ruling on those issues, whether they use GW's FAQs and Errata or even the INAT.
Dash, have you ever had problems with people over the FAQs? I'm not much of a tournament-goer myself, but I can imagine that there would be a lot of anxiety about that sort of thing, specifically on issues like the reserves one mentioned before.
*EDIT* And of course, I forgot the actual reason for my post: I really enjoyed Part 2, especially now that there are pictures. I'm a little confused about the "Checkerboard pattern" you mentioned earlier though. The way I understand what you said, you rush all your skimmers to your opponent's table edge, and orient them in such a way that it is impossible for the other army to move LESS than 12" to get onto the board, therefore taking away all chances of him shooting later on.
The thing is, how would you be able to do this? if the board is 6 feet long, you're going to need a heck of a lot of raiders and ravagers to accomplish this.
Answers...
1. No, I've not had problems with FAQs. At tournaments, people generally have their own FAQs, and most tournament goers who aren't a novice to the scene also have a pocket rulebook and either know the main rulebook FAQ clarifications or carry it with them.
2. I *rarely* see INAT in use anywhere. Its a contentious document because it changes rules that were clear to start. As a general rule - you can expect the GWFAQs to take precedence, INAT usually adjusts anyway.
3. Anxiety about the FAQ: This is the sort of thing that you discuss with opponents before the game. I don't like taking advantage of opponents' lack of knowledge for gain, so I always discuss rules that might affect them, and ask if there are any questions about my army that I can answer for them. The biggest affect that particular ruling has is that vendettas can no longer reserve and move combat speed onto the board - there is no rotation that would completely fit them onto the table. It also affects tank shocking onto the table (specifically against vehicles), but it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.
4. The checkerboard pattern: Think about a wave serpent. You don't need to line the board. A raider is...6" long or so? A wave serpent is about 6" in diameter? That means you can be about 6" back from the table edge (maybe 5"). You don't have to line the edge tail to fin, just not create gaps big enough for a wave serpent to move onto the table and still be 1" away from your stuff.
Dicelowly wrote:Okay, I can see how your tactic can make you win, but it really doesn't look like a good way to go about it. You speak of being gentlemanly about the whole thing yet your methods are beardy and mentality devoid of any conscience.
Oh sure chalk it up as 'gettin in the mood' but really its a win first fun second approach. IMO any list that spams or any rule bashing that requires you to carry photocopies of an obscure article to wave in your opponents face is just pitiful. Do you play any online FPS games? They have something called Spawn Camping which is a tactic favoured by the 'must-wins' while completely ruining the experience for everyone else, and its exactly what you describe here. Some people do it because they dont care, others because they think if they can they should, when if you want to be a real sportsman and a real general you'll defeat your opponent on their strengths and yours.
People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.
Wow.
1. Playing by the rules is not beardy. The RULEBOOK is not an obscure article.
2. This thread is not about how to create a fun game for your opponent. I established that much in the OP. It is about how to be vicious, how to kill, and how to win. Did you not see Manchu's post? If all you have to offer to this thread is "OMG BEARDY CHEETER WAAC!" Feel free to not post here anymore.
If you're going to shoot down genuine critique as being some mindless flame then its hardly showing any confidence in your post. Please make your responses respectable by addressing the points raised, instead of exaggerating the enthusiasm of my opinion as an insult to my intelligence.
To take the emotion out of it (which from reading your OP was something I gathered you'd accept) can you offer any tactics which enable you to win honourably? As in, without scraping for inches by tweaking models unrealistically, or threatening your opponent with spawn camping (that is what it is) so they dont play reserve?
Two additional notes on enemy reserves:
1. If your enemy reserves their army and isn't skimmer based, make sure that when their turn 2 starts, your entire army is flat-out, and that *everything* has a 4+ save regardless of its position on the board. Additionally, play around with your vehicles, their contents and a table edge. If you have enough vehicles, you can line their table edge in two turns - at which point non-skimmers are automatically destroyed. While the GWFAQ 1.1 allows players to tank shock onto the board, it also notes that if a unit stops with any part of it off the board, it counts as destroyed. A rhino attempting to ram a skimmer from off the table stops 1" away from the raider to resolve the ramming attack. IE, it has stopped and is still not on the table. Personally, if my opponent fully reserves in this situation and hasn't inspired my ire with a bad attitude thus far (while the game is beginning), I'll tell them what I plan to do after they announce that they are fully reserving, show them the FAQ and the clarification if it comes up, and tell them that I don't want to win like that - so ask them to deploy on the table anyway.
2. If your enemy *is* skimmer based (Eldar and Dark Eldar) you can use roughly the same strategy - except that you flat out your vehicles in a checkerboard pattern *near* their table edge. I don't have a picture of this to show, but the goal is for enemy reserves to not be able to move onto their table edge, and have to fly over you to get onto the table - more than 12", so that they don't get to fire anyway. Alpha-strike denial. If you haven't done this before, play around with your models near a table edge to get a feel for the pattern and unit dispersal you need to accomplish it.
This tactic actually intrigued me... I had never thought of that.
Though I tend to play armies without vehicles, so not realizing that makes sense :-)
So, for Dark eldar, it is basically the opposite of Eldar in terms of weather they like reserves or not? hmmm
You're obviously not a competitive gamer - that's fine. Make a thread asking for advice instead of posting in this one. Even your halfhearted "To take the emotion out, can you offer any HONORABLE tactics" is a sham. If you wish to selectively apply the rules, that's fine. Since all you offer to the thread are insults that I'm cheating, please leave.
If you're going to shoot down genuine critique as being some mindless flame then its hardly showing any confidence in your post. Please make your responses respectable by addressing the points raised, instead of exaggerating the enthusiasm of my opinion as an insult to my intelligence.
That was not genuine critique... That was saying that his post was dumb because it was saying how to win rather than how friendly games work...
Friendly games and games were you are trying to win are not the same thing. At tournaments, would you chose not to take a good unit because your opponent wouldn't like it if you did? Of course not... you would be out game one.
The game in a "for fun" standpoint is far different than a competitive standpoint. A majority of your games will be for fun, and many will be to win.
People play for different reasons and as you have fun doing this then good for you. Go promote your WLD, your wonderful KDR, and have fun stroking that ego. Just remember that someone with mastery of an army doesn't need beardy tricks to win, even for Dark Eldar.
Obviously you have never seen a competitive eldar list huh? "beardy tricks" is how they win...
Really? Why do you even do that? Did I say you cheated? Did I put anything in unreasonable caps? Would it have been so hard to respond normally and politely? I seriously wanted to know; do you know any way of winning without playing that way. Im sure they didn't design the army so that the only way to victory was along those lines.
Its not an unreasonable question, and would you please stop insulting me already. We both made it clear that's not going to fly so drop it. Do you know an honourable way to win with Dark Eldar? Its not bs, its not having a go, you've played a heap of games and maybe you know.
If you dont, "no" is an acceptable answer and I'll look elsewhere. Didn't mean to step on any nerves.
@Dicelowly: You're new here so I am giving you a chance to bow out of this thread without earning your first suspension. Your comments are off-topic here and I know that you could not have failed to see my comments at the beginning of this thread given that they were written in bright red. You can either contribute to this thread by discussing the tactics or you can walk away. Your points are off-topic. If you don't have anything to add then you are in violation of our rules and I will suspend your account.
Dicelowly, read the OP - there are some links there that would be valuable from any perspective.
*edit* This thread isn't about how to play DE, which I think you're after. This thread is about how to refine a solid DE general into a razor edge of competitiveness. The things you're asking for advice on are plentiful around Dakka - from myself and others. Look through the first couple of pages of the tactics forum here for threads and posts by myself and Ketara (Has Thor665 posted anything?). In this thread, I'm presuming that the interested reader already *knows* how to play DE, can build an excellent list, and use it well. Again - this is all in my OP - this thread is "Advanced tips and tricks."
@dice: I do believe we are still in deployment. There really is no tactics save how to give yourself coversaves. The ability to stop your opponent from wanting to reserve is a tactical advantage.
He did in fact say that he warns the opponent beforehand. If the opponent choses to ignore this, that is there fault.
We haven't even gotten past deployment and you are complaining about being unfair because the FAQ explicitly states what happens if you do this.
Hey dice, so taking advantage of an opponents errors to win is 'beardy'? I think this stance runs counter to both the idea of playing to win, and to being a good sportsman.
Asking them to follow the rules is wrong? Again isn't part of being a good sportsman and an efficent general having a firm understanding of the situation (the rules the game operates under) and the best ways to turn that to ones advantage, like take the high ground, don't invade russia in winter, or don't reserve when your opponent can block your entry?
And the offical update to the BRB is obscure? I thought everyone everywhere would want to encourage people to use the most current versions of the rules? Otherwise when playing against a new player one could be in for some nasty surprises.
Dash: With the baron in WC, what have you considered? I see the non situation-specific options as running down a flank, reserving or if beasts somehow found their wa along for the ride =P
Dash: With the baron in WC, what have you considered? I see the non situation-specific options as running down a flank, reserving or if beasts somehow found their wa along for the ride =P
Not sure what you're asking? What is WC? Could you elaborate?
Are people actually allowing you to take cover saves on vehicles with a sideways Raider frequently?
They're so spindly that it's very difficult to actually cover 50% of another vehicle from an opposing unit. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it certainly isn't going to cover everything in your second row of vehicles consistently. Haphazard, but definitely clear shots will be available.
Although, you're still left with 5+ after that. Just wondering how many 4+ saves you're actually getting.
Dashofpepper wrote: He’s not in my wych cult – only because I haven’t figured out what to do with him in it yet. He’ll end up there.
notabot187 wrote:I think WC is wych cult. He is referring to your statement about not yet finding a place for the baron in a cult list. As far as I can tell at least.
Nightwatch wrote:I'm a little confused about the "Checkerboard pattern" you mentioned earlier though. The way I understand what you said, you rush all your skimmers to your opponent's table edge, and orient them in such a way that it is impossible for the other army to move LESS than 12" to get onto the board, therefore taking away all chances of him shooting later on.
The thing is, how would you be able to do this? if the board is 6 feet long, you're going to need a heck of a lot of raiders and ravagers to accomplish this.
Dashofpepper wrote:4. The checkerboard pattern: Think about a wave serpent. You don't need to line the board. A raider is...6" long or so? A wave serpent is about 6" in diameter? That means you can be about 6" back from the table edge (maybe 5"). You don't have to line the edge tail to fin, just not create gaps big enough for a wave serpent to move onto the table and still be 1" away from your stuff.
The following picture should not allow a wave serpent to move less than 12" when moving on from the table edge without coming to within 1" of a raider or having part of it hang off the board.
This is my interpretation... but i think its more or less accurate, or has the basic principles down at least. Although it would change for differeing opponents with differing vehicle sizes/speeds.
This looks like the fine beginnings of a great tactica. Any chance of it being stickied?
Dash, I was curious as to whether or not you have faced the new GK's yet and do you think they will change the meta the way DE lists are built at all? It seems to me that taking Coteaz could be a major thorn in the DE's side since he essentially increases the chance of stealing from 16.6% to approximately 30%. Also the prevalence of dreads and razorbacks with fortitude would mean stunning or shaking them is just not enough and would put a serious dent in the whole alpha strike philosophy.
His ability to seize the Initiative looks better than the Baron's +1
Of course, i'm relatively new, that's why i'm asking.
A main factor would be points, another would be the in-game abalities.
Vext costs a bomb, even without his dias, and for his cost, simply isnt killy enough.
Another consideration is the +1 will effect all your games, where as a 4+ seize will only effect half (the ones where you go second)
The +1 also lets you choose a table edge/quarter, which is preferable to letting your opponent choose one as they would inevitably choose the one thats helps them the most.
Manchu wrote:This is not a thread about debating friendly play styles. This is a thread about competitive play. If you don't have questions or comments about the particular tactics discussed then simply move along.
Indeed. Having said that, all parties need to steer clear of the chest thumping. That wil not be tolerated from anyone (except the followers of Dachshundskrieg of course). Argue the points, examine the merit and remember, there are multiple methods to winning, and this is just one method.
Lets also remember this is toy soldiers. Theoretically being the best player of all time doesn't even gets you a discount on a coffee at Starbucks. Its just toy soldiers.
@Lukus83: It is too early to tell with GK. The codex isn't even out yet. I've only faced them once, in a test list being used by Hulksmash. I took the day, but it was only his first time using them with a test list. Honestly, I think that grey knights are going to be just like every other marine army to kill, except easier.
1. Less long ranged fire support. No lie, triple psyammo rifleman dreads throwing out double twin-linked autocannons at +1 strength 48" every turn and most likely ignoring stunned and shaken results on themselves is brutal against AV10 open-topped. From another perspective, its underwhelming. That's three targets getting shot at. Compared to any other competitive codex it is rather underwhelming in terms of volume of fire.
2. Less models: So every Grey Knight has a Nemesis Force Weapon, psyker powers, and a personal autograph from the Emperor on his chestplate. Those cost points. Lots of them. A small elite army can expect to get overwhelmed by sheer number of dice rolls.
3. Inferior speed: Grey Knights are a 24" army with 48" fire support. That means that at 36-48", there are probably only 3-5 models that even matter in the GK army. Psycannons and stormbolters can be outmaneuvered until the long range battle is done and hopefully won.
4. Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
In reference to Coteaz......again, Grey Knights aren't an alpha-strike army. The initiative gets stolen from you....ohnoes. Deploy well. You'll get cover from ranged firepower, shunt won't get anything important - you have the tools.
@Tavitan: Asdrubael Vect is ridiculously expensive, the Dias moreso, and the requirement to put 9 other models in there is not a benefit. The ability to seize on a 4+ is *not* a benefit. Read my part II on deployment. There are three possibilities.
1. You are going first and don't need to seize.
2. You are not going first, and want to keep it that way so that you have last say in objectives / killpoints...
3. You are not going first, and are not comfortable deploying on the board because of the amount of enemy firepower at range, which is going to force you into reserve.
So....the only situation Vect is useful is #3 - where going second is going to hurt you. Either you're reserving to get a limited alpha-strike in, or you're deploying as if you're going first and attempting to seize on a 4+. 50% of the time....boom, you're going to auto-lose. You set up a turkey-shoot for an opponent able to dominate you through shooting...and banked on a 4+ to turn the table.
I'd rather have +1 to go first and *know* what to expect than to put all my eggs into one basket and bank on a 4+ to seize.
dayve110 wrote:
The following picture should not allow a wave serpent to move less than 12" when moving on from the table edge without coming to within 1" of a raider or having part of it hang off the board.
This is my interpretation... but i think its more or less accurate, or has the basic principles down at least. Although it would change for differeing opponents with differing vehicle sizes/speeds.
Dashofpepper wrote:I just listened to The Fight Song (and watched the video) for it.....and it didn't do it for me.
On a sidenote, I'm half-done with the Deployment part. I had a crazy day today at work so didn't get to it. Nuclear construction, owed a customer 1.2 million in invoices for Purchase Orders that we hadn't written yet, running between purchasing and quality and engineering....getting signatures, stuff written, system updates...this week has been very stressful. Taking the day off tomorrow, poker game at my house tomorrow night with friends, it'll get done.
Lamb of God is better killing motivational music.
That being said, great thread there mr. dash. The deployment denials a little... assholish. But hell, if your playing for all the beans, guess it doesn't matter eh?
Also I found an awesome (kinda expensive) way to get baron into a list:
- Baron rides around with the BM's until they wanna get into combat, then he goes his own marry way
- Beasts can hide in terrain until needed, going to ground if needed to get a 2+ and really piss your opponents off
- Baron rides around with the BM's until they wanna get into combat, then he goes his own marry way
- Beasts can hide in terrain until needed, going to ground if needed to get a 2+ and really piss your opponents off
That's in my kabal list (linked in the OP), but I'm not convinced its right for a wych cult.
*edit* And like I said....unless my opponent is being a douche already, the deployment issue doesn't come up with me personally, because I warn them about what I'm going to do if they do it. However, it is a tool available to Dark Eldar.
Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.
- Baron rides around with the BM's until they wanna get into combat, then he goes his own marry way
- Beasts can hide in terrain until needed, going to ground if needed to get a 2+ and really piss your opponents off
I'm not convinced its right for a wych cult.
I would definitely agree with that, especially a unit that size. A Wych cult army is already going to have fewer squads than an msu kabal list. A 200+ unit of beasts will cut into the number of wych squads and/or your elites to find space, eliminating much needed AT ability.
Also, great work Dash. I appreciate the time and effort that's going into it. It'll certainly help some DE players get off to a good start and hopefully eliminate a lot of trial and effort types of play for competitiveness that older DE players had to go through. Assuming most DE players heed your advice...you'll most likely end up playing a lot more DE in tournaments.
Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.
I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BAFAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.
Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.
I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BAFAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.
The Brotherhood of Psykers rule explicitly states that anti-psyker attacks against units with the rule only affect one model, not the whole unit. This is not ambiguous.
Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.
I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BAFAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.
The Brotherhood of Psykers rule explicitly states that anti-psyker attacks against units with the rule only affect one model, not the whole unit. This is not ambiguous.
Indeed - the Justicar or Knight of the flame.
*edit* I'm creating a YMDC thread to address this, because of some some things that don't flow together. Killing the Justicar with the Crucible would be fine if the unit was then rendered non-psychic - which isn't the case. Additionally, while attacks against the unit that target psykers are resolved against the Justicar, the Crucible of Malediction doesn't make attacks. Nor is it a weapon - so it isn't making an anti-psyker attack; it only causes a leadership check. Anyway, lets keep this to YMDC.
I think we are getting off subject. Dash's statements that you need to be razor sharp and ruthlessly approach any enemy mistake or oversight is applicable to any army. The point is a DE player has to accept the fact that he has THE most lethal for the points spent units in the game. On the downside a DE player has probably the most weak to enemy fire units in the game. That you have to go into it with a killer mentality is a given. As I said, all armies need to go for the throat but the DE through speed and accuracy have the greatest ability to make someone pay for a mistake. The flip side is DE making a mistake get ripped a new one very fast. As a matter of fact, I kind of fear the first meeting with GK with all that S5 and S8 firepower on my naked little raiders and ravagers I expect a bloodbath.
My experience of DE play is the game is usually decided by about turn 3. Either the DE has ruthlessly killed off enough to make the rest of the mission a mop up or the DE has failed - through bad dice luck or by making a mistake - and it is a mop up of the DE.
Last 4 DE games played:
1. Wiped out a necron player. Poison against nightbringer spells doom.
2. Wiped out a demon player. Too much khorne spelled doom as my bikes bladevaned a DP and and a greater demon off the board.
3. Wiped out a marine player. The only thing left standing was one marine and a dreadnought. DE had lost a total of 5 incubi and 5 bikes out of an 1850 force.
4. Got owned by a demon player. Slaaneshi speed was hard to overcome. Also snowballed from two missed reaver bike moves and rather than bladevaning off two keepers of secrets they got charged by two keepers.
Bottomline 3 of the 4 games were good intense and fun matchups for both players. Only the SM comedy of errors and bad dicerolling ( periled a termie squad on a deep strike and failed to hit anything for the first two turns.) was a yawner. I went in with a killer attitude in all the games. I went for the throat in all the games. I was not a snot about it but getting 17 DL shots plus 12 D3 S4 and 6 D6 S6 bladevane attacks on an opponent every turn can be beardy. Poisoned weapons by their very nature seem beardy to any army that depends on toughness to keep them alive.
True. It's especially effective vs. Strike and Interceptor squads, who are more likely to concentrate crucial wargear on their squad leaders, since they have better stats and access to master-crafting. I'm still not convinced the Crucible is an all-comers choice, but it at least puts a certain amount of fear in the enemy.
Fetterkey wrote:True. It's especially effective vs. Strike and Interceptor squads, who are more likely to concentrate crucial wargear on their squad leaders, since they have better stats and access to master-crafting. I'm still not convinced the Crucible is an all-comers choice, but it at least puts a certain amount of fear in the enemy.
In my opinion, if you're already running multiple Haemonculi, you might as well take one in a competitive environment.
I even think it might be worth it to find 5 points to put the "-1 to enemy Ld within 6 inches" vehicle upgrade on that Haemonculus' transport. There's a certain synergy there, and a 25 point combination that has a 1/6 chance to kill any Ld 10 psyker (and almost 30% chance to kill Ld 9 psykers) in the game with no saves isn't terrible.
Obviously, it's significantly better against armies like Grey Knighys and Seer Council Eldar, it still has some use against Space Wolves, Blood Angels, vanilla SM, etc.; all armies that regularly field at least on psyker.
They're so spindly that it's very difficult to actually cover 50% of another vehicle from an opposing unit. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it certainly isn't going to cover everything in your second row of vehicles consistently. Haphazard, but definitely clear shots will be available.
+1
It is very difficult (nigh impossible if you are trying to do it for more than one) to block 50% of a raider with a sideways raider.
I used GIMP to do some image analysis on blocking raiders with sideways raiders (using the old ones because that is what I have and what Dash has from his pictures) and there was basically only one spot that one other raider could claim 50% from done and that was with the enemy straight on from the front.
I am curious about the new raiders, has anyone carefully checked?
With the old raiders, it was still quite possible. A sideways raider is not a flat platform. It has a raised section in the middle, solid flanges out front, and an entire engine/driver assembly in the rear.
I am aware of what the new raider looks like, I was more curious as to whether anyone had carefully (e.g. taking photographs and using an image analysis tool like GIMP) checked for 50% coverage for a raider blocked by a sideways raider.
For general information, when I checked for the original raider i took a picture of a raider from a set distance. I then counted the pixels that the raider took up on the image. Next I placed a sideways raider in between the camera and the original raider. I then counted the pixels the original raider took up on the new image. If it was more then 50% of the original number of pixels it did not get a cover save.
This technique is limited by the size of the pixels, as that is the smallest unit the image can be broken up into, but I estimated that hat should not change the coverage by more than 1%.
Will the Tactica include any strategies for WWP armies? I'm limiting my own army to absolutely no vehicles, but I have not gotten any decent advice from any Dark Eldar players other than 'you need ravagers and raiders'. I understand non-vehicle DE are not tournament worthy, but I am hoping to learn some tricks to make the army as competitive as possible.
It looks pretty brutal with 6 dreads instead of 3. Venerables are just nasty. I would personally refrain from Crowe and purifiers since I really want Coteaz with melta henchmen in chimeras in there. Maybe lose 1 dread for a purgation squad with incinerators and a razorback so you have an anti horde element.
Now that would be 5 dreads and 1 razorback able to hit at range with a reasonable chance of stealing.
I know it IS still too early to tell but GK's don't have to put points into upgrades and henchmen allow you make up for expensive basic troops. In my mind it's not quite clear yet where they will stand.
Anyways continue your work with this great tactica.
Oaka wrote:Will the Tactica include any strategies for WWP armies? I'm limiting my own army to absolutely no vehicles, but I have not gotten any decent advice from any Dark Eldar players other than 'you need ravagers and raiders'. I understand non-vehicle DE are not tournament worthy, but I am hoping to learn some tricks to make the army as competitive as possible.
Greetings. This tactica isn't intended to have any strategies for particular list types (although I have pointed out an anti-reserve tactic possible with a mechanized DE army). Rather, I am hoping that the advice I give can apply to any Dark Eldar general.
On a less positive note, I must point out again that this thread is meant to hone the skills of a Dark Eldar general to the razor edge of competitive destruction - and that I don't feel that *any* WWP list (or any that I've seen yet) fit the base requirements of competitive...so I think that the value you might find here for you is limited if you're running a list that doesn't have the tools tools to capitalize on what Dark Eldar excel at.
So, reserving against you is not a good plan - if one wanted to actually play a game, that is. What do you think a good deployment would be then, if going second against you? I know its hard to say without knowing the army/list, but in general, should one try a speed-bump deployment, to get you to slow up on cheap units out front? Or, depending on terrain, split up somewhat, so that whichever chunk you choose to attack, you are doing so with flanks exposed to the other?
What I'm trying to ask is: what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?
Since it is ranged weaponry that influences your decision to reserve when going second, and this is your least favourable deployment, would you say that ranged armies are generally your biggest challenge?
I dont think a speed bump deployment would work too well. dispossable cheap units MIGHT slow down a well made DE list, but it will also generate alot of pain tokens, wich honestly just make DE better. if anything, i would suggest deploying something, but trying to spam as much long range as possible, and keeping together. make the DE commit to a line of attack, and hope your firepower can bring them down. (hopefully at long range, and before the massed return or alpha fire do BAD things to your lines)
if i was not playing dark eldar myself, and knew i was going to play vrs a DE player, i would use drop pods. it denies his alpha strike, and gives me one, allows me to show up majority of force when and where i need it with pretty good reliability, and with tac/SG/dreads dropping in, enough firepower can be brought up to seriously damage a dark eldar vehicle spam list. plus your t4 / 3+ armor probally has best odds of surviving the massed poison. that and DE anything is pretty much bolter fodder.
just a thought. (also drop pod list works best imho if going second)
DarknessEternal wrote:Are people actually allowing you to take cover saves on vehicles with a sideways Raider frequently?
They're so spindly that it's very difficult to actually cover 50% of another vehicle from an opposing unit. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it certainly isn't going to cover everything in your second row of vehicles consistently. Haphazard, but definitely clear shots will be available.
Although, you're still left with 5+ after that. Just wondering how many 4+ saves you're actually getting.
with 2 raiders blocking another you should be able to get beyond 4+ cover and into the realm of complete LOS denial.
what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?
I can only really give army and board specific advice, and I do when I can.
In terms of general advice....there is none. The game shouldn't even be happening. If you wanted a good time, you should have said, "Eh, I'll give you the game, I don't stand a chance against Dark Eldar anyway. Lets go get a beer." With murder in my eyes and righteous indignation pouring from my ears at the affront of having to play against inferior aliens....cower.
Asking how to make a game out of a match against Dark Eldar is like being in a prison cell surrounded by 10 big horny guys who each outweigh you by 100 pounds and asking "What can I do to make this a good fight?" You're going to get violated, and your best bet is to go willingly to get it over with faster.
In truth, game-face aside, there's no general advice to give except what is repeated often throughout Dakka about how to beat DE.
what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?
In terms of general advice....there is none. The game shouldn't even be happening. If you wanted a good time, you should have said, "Eh, I'll give you the game, I don't stand a chance against Dark Eldar anyway. Lets go get a beer."
I don't think you'd appreciate going halfway across the country to a tourney, roll well on initiative and have the game end there a good chunk of the time with the opponent stretching his hand across the table and conceding the match. Especially since you spend good money for you and your wife to go have a good time, with the game itself being a part of the distraction.
Now I could see it being mitigated for you by winning the whole thing in any event, but I'd feel that a part of me would not want to play the game if all I got was people conceding left and right just because your army went first.
However, I am not you and don't have to worry about that particular facet of the game. But what would you do if your army/you became so fearsome that essentially all your opponents (regular, not the top tier ones), bowed out of your way in any competitive scene?
WarOne wrote: But what would you do if your army/you became so fearsome that essentially all your opponents (regular, not the top tier ones), bowed out of your way in any competitive scene?
1. Less long ranged fire support. No lie, triple psyammo rifleman dreads throwing out double twin-linked autocannons at +1 strength 48" every turn and most likely ignoring stunned and shaken results on themselves is brutal against AV10 open-topped. From another perspective, its underwhelming. That's three targets getting shot at. Compared to any other competitive codex it is rather underwhelming in terms of volume of fire.
I think this is overlooking the very good IMO 50 point razorback with 36" range, three shot, str 6, twin linked guns.
murdog wrote:Since it is ranged weaponry that influences your decision to reserve when going second, and this is your least favourable deployment, would you say that ranged armies are generally your biggest challenge?
What about this?
Dashofpepper wrote:
murdog wrote:what advice would you have for your opponent, when going second, to make a game out of it?
I can only really give army and board specific advice, and I do when I can.
In terms of general advice....there is none. The game shouldn't even be happening. If you wanted a good time, you should have said, "Eh, I'll give you the game, I don't stand a chance against Dark Eldar anyway. Lets go get a beer." With murder in my eyes and righteous indignation pouring from my ears at the affront of having to play against inferior aliens....cower.
Asking how to make a game out of a match against Dark Eldar is like being in a prison cell surrounded by 10 big horny guys who each outweigh you by 100 pounds and asking "What can I do to make this a good fight?" You're going to get violated, and your best bet is to go willingly to get it over with faster.
Ok. Well. I'm one of those wierd guys who keeps getting back up and trying again, in spite of failure and adversity. A person who would prefer to lose to a better player than beat a poorer one. So your murder, indignation, and intent to violate doesn't deter me from putting up a fight. I mean, it is just a game! That's my gameface! (For one thing, you might as well set up - 1/6 chance to steal the initiative and get a game, at least!)
Dashofpepper wrote:In truth, game-face aside, there's no general advice to give except what is repeated often throughout Dakka about how to beat DE.
I'm not really after general advice on how to beat DE, i realize that's not the point of your thread (which is great by the way, and I'm not trying to annoy you with stupid questions, I'm actually interested). With respect, I'm asking you to elaborate just a little on the deployment part. Reserving is out, and there are a few general strategies one could employ when deploying to go second against you, such as: castling; refusing a flank; mutually supporting positions that aren't right beside each other; speedbumps; far back as possible; reserving part of the force; etc... Of course army/terrain/mission will determine the tactics for the opposing commander, but would any of that make any difference to you, or is there an approach you would consider more difficult - ooops sorry - less easy to... to... completely annihilate?.
For instance, I have an army of Guard which is fun and fluffy, but definitely not Dakka-approved. I'm still learning its strenths and weaknesses, and I'm going for a balanced list. (I posted a list recently in Tactics - 2000pt IG Heavy Infantry Company). I've got like a hundred men, bristling with long-rang firepower, backed up by 7 various vehicles (a few transports and pie). If I went second against you, I guess I would deploy my infantry in a classic gunline style, far back to attempt to avoid first-turn charges, mutually supporting yet careful of easy multicharges/raider fly-overs, and a msu style so that hopefully as you smash them, they're gone and your units are left in the open, in front of my forces. With like 12+ anti-vehicle heavy weapons I'm pretty sure I'll do *some* damage to your vehicles, and I have anti-infantry capability in the foot troops as well. Depending on terrain and deployment type I would likely hold the vehicles in reserve, expecting 3 on turn 2. That way they're sure to get a shot off as they come on, and I'm pretty much assured a spot to come on because I can always move infantry if I have to.
I'm not saying I would win, or that I'd even have a chance. If I'm asking for/providing too much detail just tell me and I'll shut up. It's a good thread and I want to push it for maximum info. Thanks!
The speed segment is good. It can easily be applied to mech eldar as well aside from the assaulting part.
@Dash
You should consider changing your DE record to only include games with the 5th ed book. The army changed enough from the 3rd ed book to really be considered a different army.
Instead of Lelith I have haemonculi. Instead of 12" charges I have FNP. Instead of warriors for elites I have....elite warriors for elites. Ravagers are still ravagers.
All that changed in my army was my HQ choices. Same army, same style...
Genglash wrote:I would like to say thanks dash for the time and effort taken to make such a usefull thread! I have learned alot just from reading this.
Dashofpepper wrote:Manimal, my wych cult is still a wych cult.
Instead of Lelith I have haemonculi. Instead of 12" charges I have FNP. Instead of warriors for elites I have....elite warriors for elites. Ravagers are still ravagers.
All that changed in my army was my HQ choices. Same army, same style...
I agree your army changed very little compared to most, but you have to be missing those 5 point blasters in wych squads...
Dashofpepper wrote:Manimal, my wych cult is still a wych cult.
Instead of Lelith I have haemonculi. Instead of 12" charges I have FNP. Instead of warriors for elites I have....elite warriors for elites. Ravagers are still ravagers.
All that changed in my army was my HQ choices. Same army, same style...
I agree your army changed very little compared to most, but you have to be missing those 5 point blasters in wych squads...
Yes....yes those were nice. Two per squad of five. :(
IG w/ Manticores, SW w/ Long Fangs, any razorback spam, DOA. I wouldn't say orks because you would have too many things trying to rush into CC. You would need things to sit back and shoot with maybe 1 deathstar to linebreak while the wyches cover the frontlines.
Tavitin wrote:What are the top 5 better partners for a Dark Eldar in a tournament.
I must assume:
1 Dark Eldar
2 Eldar
3 Ork
4 ???
5 ???
If I can go ahead and just disagree with Ashenshugar and advise pretty much the opposite of him. =D
#1: The absolute best partner for Dark Eldar in a tournament is no one. Two generals on the field are never going to be as competent in making unified decisions as one general would be.
#2: For a team to be successful, someone needs to swallow their pride and be the subordinate. General and Adjutant. An adjutant plays their army, inputs ideas, but the general has overall command of the battle; and if they have two different ideas, the general has the final say.
#3: If you *must* team with someone, the best teammate is the one that is a better gamer than you, regardless of what army they play.
In terms of which codex pairs best with Dark Eldar for a tournament, it depends on points and how the codexes interact. If it was 1,000 point apiece, imagine the Dark Eldar "team" fielding 6 ravagers with flickerfields, 6 units of trueborn in venoms, 4 wych squads, Baron Sathonyx, and a couple of haemonculi - or another Baron Sathonyx if you could stack the +1 to go first. Or fielding Corbulo to reroll your +1 to go first. I'm hazy on all the codexes influence on rerolls and stuff, so don't flay me if that was wrong.
I had a team tournament a few weeks ago; I wasn't intending to go because I'm not a fan of team events - but my friend's partner fell through and he wasn't going to go anymore, so I conditionally offered to step in and partner up - with the condition that he be my adjutant - I'd value his input and listen to him, but if we disagree about something, my decision overrides. He brought his Orks, I brought my Dark Eldar, and since I play both codexes, this is my favorite pairing.
I brought Baron Sathonyx, two wych squads, 3 units of trueborn in venoms, and 3 ravagers.
He brought a KFF Big Mek, two units of gretchin, 3 units of Lootas (15/8/5 or something) and nine killa-kans with rokkits.
Killa-kans are tall enough to provide a cover save to Dark Eldar vehicles, while the kans themselves are getting cover saves from the KFF Big Mek, my wyches were protecting his Lootas from assault, and his Lootas and my firing support were scything the battlefield clear of everything. With all the Lootas on the field, I didn't have to focus my lances on AV11; he did that while I went after AV12 and 13. When one of our opponents dropped 9 wyches off in front of one of our two scoring gretchin units and a unit of my wyches and I realized that he had FNP and I didn't....well, Loota fire STR7 double toughness, and 4+ cover isn't so much. After a volley from his 15 Lootas, there were two wyches left, which I gladly went and snatched a pain token from.
Killa-kans have a STR10 close combat punch much better than tarpitting units like wyches do.
Game 1: We gave up 400 victory points and tabled our opponents (DE + Sisters of Battle)
Game 2: We gave up 0 victory points and tabled our opponents (DE + Blood Angels)
Game 3: We played against Team Twilight (Blood Angels + Space Wolves). The SW player had triple long fangs, grey hunters in rhinos, while the BA player had a drop-pod dreadnought and several units of jetpack assault infantry. All those assault infantry went after my wyches (and killed them) in exchange for getting counter-assaulted by three units of killa-kans (which in turn wiped out the BA player), after I spent two turns firing all my darklight weapons at his dreadnought and drop pod. Boom, then it was 2v1. And that's why you can't have two generals. The SW player told the BA player not to suicide into us, strongly encouraged him not to, but without the ability to countermand his partner, their strategies differed too wildly.
That's my advice. Its more about your partner than the list they bring.
Murdog, I answered you in a previous post to your last one.
This thread isn't a "How to beat DE" thread, but a "How to beat face with DE" thread. To your specifics:
1. I prefer to play against close combat armies because I play a close combat army, and I like being in close combat. You don't have to worry about LOS or range in close combat, you just beat on each other until someone is dead.
2. I don't have a least favorite deployment type. My speed makes DoW irrelevant to me and disfavorable to shooting opponents, and Spearhead and Pitched Battle are pretty much the same to me. I guess I like spearhead the least because it gives the my enemy the possibility of deploying far enough away that it will take me two turns to get there.
3. My job is to help people become better DE generals. My advice and tactics can be used equally by DE generals to improve, or non-DE generals to...improve. Read my advice and YOU figure out the best counter-deployment, the best target prioritization, and your best shot at taking down a DE player. I have no sympathy or urge to help the 54% of 40k players who all play the same damn thing with different colors, and every inclination to help the 4% of people playing my codex who want to beat the liver and onions out of that 54%.
If you want help on how to deploy your IG to beat on DE....that's fine, and I'd even give you advice in a different thread - one about how to counter a DE alpha-strike or something. But I don't want this thread going off-topic - the topic of which is using Dark Eldar to curb-stomp grown men, eat their livers, and send them home crying with dirty stitches in their side and no ability to process the alcohol they would use to drown their sorrows.
My apologies if I'm annoying you - I read your answer and wanted clarification and elaboration. It seems you are misunderstanding my approach, sorry for the confusion. I just feel that by asking about the deployment of the opponent, I can get more information about the deployment of your DE. I was going about it indirectly, you could say. If you talk about what challenges you, then you're also talking about your strategies for success.
As for who it is you're trying to help - that seems very clear. I do play IG, but not what everyone else plays, and I am a new DE commander, which is why I'm even reading this thread. I only related my army to you because you said you needed more specifics, and I put it at the end of the post, under my more general inquiry - like a case study. I'm not really trying to find out how to beat your DE - but wouldn't talking about that strenthen your advice anyways?
I tried to ask some (what I hoped were) intelligent questions related to what you wrote, in as a polite and respectful manner as I could muster. Thanks for answering them, much appreciated. I look forward to the rest of the article.
Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Once again DoP provides amazing tactics and insight into the pointy eared bondage xenos!
I eagerly await more tactics so I can attempt to counter them... As Daemons... Good thing I love a challange!
Actually, Daemons are a hard matchup. Everything has eternal warrior and has an invulnerable save so lances aren't so hot, and you're as fast as me on foot as I can be in my vehicles if I'm staying combat oriented, and agonizers don't do me any good in close combat....not to mention that you generally have better WS, higher strength, and equal initiative.
well my easiest victory was against deamons, because of the huge amount of poison my trueborn squad with splintercannons could pump out into their squads.
Lately I've been wondering if I should drop my DE army to get a new GK army because I've been having issues with the new DE codex and what I'd want to field would make me need to buy lots of new models...
Since I've been doing lots of reading I decided to keep my DE army mainly because of your explicit posts about DE that made me feel like thats the kind of army I want to play... for that I thank you.
Now on to my questions :
1- In the HQ choice would a Duke Sliscus be a good choice in a Wych cult army giving you the 2 dice rolls to choose Drugs or I should really go with haemys all the way, or like you suggest Baron Sastonyx and heamys...
Main reason I ask for this question is that do you think it'd be viable to get a troop of Hellions compared to a troop in a raider... figuring a troop with the Baron could maybe give him more reliability if I dont use beastmaster and co.
2- In a Wych cult army is it wise to cut down on troops to get 3 Trueborn blaster squads on venom?
3- When I read your DE advice on the beastmaster troop I was wondering if in your games you've had more output having that huge troop or simply putting more wyches?
4- Game wise agains't CSM or SW or any generic SM army what do you consider biggest threats because I often play agains't those but they tend to field everything in rhinos and staking them near each other making it hard for me to actually pop the troops out of the vehicules without getting stuck in their rapied fire range after my first assault (figuring I tend to rape the squad I charge before they can actually counterattack)...
The good news it that alot of what you preach here is applicable to other armies. Target priority can be different depending on what an army needs to kill first, but of course this is DE advice, so adding in the obligatory nod towards rape and plunder.
Tmonster wrote:well my easiest victory was against deamons, because of the huge amount of poison my trueborn squad with splintercannons could pump out into their squads.
Indeed, it depends on the kind of DE army you are playing.
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Maximillian wrote:
1- In the HQ choice would a Duke Sliscus be a good choice in a Wych cult army giving you the 2 dice rolls to choose Drugs or I should really go with haemys all the way, or like you suggest Baron Sastonyx and heamys...
Main reason I ask for this question is that do you think it'd be viable to get a troop of Hellions compared to a troop in a raider... figuring a troop with the Baron could maybe give him more reliability if I dont use beastmaster and co.
2- In a Wych cult army is it wise to cut down on troops to get 3 Trueborn blaster squads on venom?
3- When I read your DE advice on the beastmaster troop I was wondering if in your games you've had more output having that huge troop or simply putting more wyches?
4- Game wise agains't CSM or SW or any generic SM army what do you consider biggest threats because I often play agains't those but they tend to field everything in rhinos and staking them near each other making it hard for me to actually pop the troops out of the vehicules without getting stuck in their rapied fire range after my first assault (figuring I tend to rape the squad I charge before they can actually counterattack)...
Thanks
In answer to your questions...
1. The Wych cult link in the OP would be useful reading for you. There's even a lively debate about Duke Sliscus in there - I personally don't think he's worth taking in a wych cult...or probably any DE army for that matter.
2. I'm not sure what you mean by cutting down on troops? Models or troop choices? I think that taking less than 4 troop choices is a mistake in a wych cult - they're both your main army thrust and objective grabbers if you need them. If you're playing at a lower point value (like 1500 or something), then cut your wyches down to 5....contemplate sticking them in venoms instead of in raiders, because you won't have the points (or HQ slots) for both the Baron and 4+ haemonculi.
3. I'm not sure I understand your question about beastmasters. Beasts are a valuable unit. Depending on the wych cult that you're running, I think they lose some value - but in others they retain it. Beasts coming out of a WWP with fleet and a 12" assault is terrifying. If you're running a mechanized wych cult, points are harder to come by for them.
4. The biggest threats in a SM / CSM list depends on the codex it comes from. From Space Wolves, long fangs are the most threatening. Other codexes don't have that ability. As I said in my target prioritization section, the biggest threats are those with high strength, high volume attacks. I'd consider a predator with an auto-cannon and two twin-linked lascannons to be more of a threat than a las/plas razorback every day of the week.
Dashofpepper wrote:
In answer to your questions...
1. The Wych cult link in the OP would be useful reading for you. There's even a lively debate about Duke Sliscus in there - I personally don't think he's worth taking in a wych cult...or probably any DE army for that matter.
Yeah I just finished reading it and realized that the difference in getting 1 extra RANDOM choice compare to an extra +1 on getting possible first turn is quite good... (removed a part here... found the answer in my readings)
Dashofpepper wrote:
2. I'm not sure what you mean by cutting down on troops? Models or troop choices? I think that taking less than 4 troop choices is a mistake in a wych cult - they're both your main army thrust and objective grabbers if you need them. If you're playing at a lower point value (like 1500 or something), then cut your wyches down to 5....contemplate sticking them in venoms instead of in raiders, because you won't have the points (or HQ slots) for both the Baron and 4+ haemonculi.
Well I was looking at it in a view were I could use the venom to give cover to a troop with the venom that is smaller then a raider (sometimes they dont fit the the place where you need to cover) and at the point where I still keep the number of troops high enough depending on the points for the game...
Dashofpepper wrote:
3. I'm not sure I understand your question about beastmasters. Beasts are a valuable unit. Depending on the wych cult that you're running, I think they lose some value - but in others they retain it. Beasts coming out of a WWP with fleet and a 12" assault is terrifying. If you're running a mechanized wych cult, points are harder to come by for them.
I was looking at if you take a fast attack choice with 5 beastmaster, 15 Khymerae and 4 Razorwing Floks that doesn't come out of a WWP (300pts) compared to a troop of 9 wyches with 1 hekatrix, agoniser all HWG and Raider with FF (208pts)
Now in this situation I'm just wondering which of the 2 options are more reliable seeing has I'll have to move potentially alot before I can reach my target with the FA choice... do I risk losing 300pts for nothing
Dashofpepper wrote:
4. The biggest threats in a SM / CSM list depends on the codex it comes from. From Space Wolves, long fangs are the most threatening. Other codexes don't have that ability. As I said in my target prioritization section, the biggest threats are those with high strength, high volume attacks. I'd consider a predator with an auto-cannon and two twin-linked lascannons to be more of a threat than a las/plas razorback every day of the week.
On that note how to fare agains't a pack of rhinos (2-3) with troops inside? If i focus on 1 or 2 tanks I might get stuck in firing range after I potentially wipe the troops that were available to kill...
On another note I was wondering if going to 8 wyches and getting 1 model with hydra gauntlet (potentially more attacks) compared to 9 wyches is the extra number of attacks better then an extra wound? (it's probably already answered but I'm having a hard time finding all the answers )
For your specific list advice, which is what you're juggling, create a thread in the Army list section with a breakdown of what you're running, and what other units you have to substitute. Call your thread "Dashofpepper styled Dark Eldar" and you'll get a butt-ton more views and responses. I promise. Explain what your questions are about unit substitution and what to choose and let the community give feedback, give it a couple days, then send me a link to it so that I can go read what has been said and agree/disagree/etc.
And Part V is done. I still owe an important section on disruptive psychology and its application in-game, and need to see about fleshing out some of what I've written with pictures for the folks who are having trouble visualizing what I'm talking about.
I don't like you giving away all my Dark Eldar rules manipulations...Hopefully only our Dark Kin are reading this thread and not our enemies!
Great write-ups, part V needs pictures though, I understand all of that because I use those same tactics in games all the time, but if a newb were trying to understand this I think you just exploded their heads without pictures.
wileythenord wrote:I don't like you giving away all my Dark Eldar rules manipulations...Hopefully only our Dark Kin are reading this thread and not our enemies!
Great write-ups, part V needs pictures though, I understand all of that because I use those same tactics in games all the time, but if a newb were trying to understand this I think you just exploded their heads without pictures.
Same, pictures would indeed be helpful.
Otherwise, great info so far Dash! Very helpful. Keep up the good work.
Love it Dash! I don't play DE but a lot of the advice and tips you are giving help Eldar as well since we are also fast. Not everything since we play substantially different but certain things. Also your part V section is great for a lot of armies out there!
I need to take some pictures or Vassal screenshots to illustrate some of these tactics, but this is it in a nutshell. My wife thinks I shouldn't be divulging so many of my secrets, but I present them to you to learn from.
Thanks for this really interesting and illuminating guide. i don't play Dark Eldar, but it's been very educational nonetheless.
The psychology of 'playing the man, not the board' is one of the most interesting aspects of gaming -- of all sorts, and one that I think is sadly neglected by many players. I'm glad to see it touched on at the end.
Dash... so that cruel, malicious mindset you speak of at the beginning of your article. Would you say that should be uniquely DE? Or is that an attitude you'd advocate any 40k player adopting?
Belerephon wrote:Dash... so that cruel, malicious mindset you speak of at the beginning of your article. Would you say that should be uniquely DE? Or is that an attitude you'd advocate any 40k player adopting?
I think it was DE specific. Eldar can't do that and tyranids focus on working together as one. DE being so fragile, they have to destroy everything asap.
OTOH, you shouldn't think about focusing on objectives to easily in the game. In an objectives based mission, your opponents scoring units should be on your mind.
I’m going to insert the assaulting rules here to save you a trip through your rulebook for references.
-Your assaulting unit must move your closest model to the closest model of the enemy unit you’ve declared as your primary target.
-Every other model in the unit now has your assault distance (either 6” or the highest of 2d6) to do anything they want, provided you meet the following conditions:
-Every model that can get into base must.
-You must move into base into base with models not in base contact first.
-Independent Characters move in first.
-Every model you move into assault must retain coherency with a model that has already moved in (except for the first one assaulting in of course).
Defenders react uses the same rules – everyone who can get into base must do so, and unengaged (or models not in base contact already) take precedent. With those things in mind, here are some nifty tricks.
You may want to double check this I'm pretty sure independent Characters do not have to move in first during an assault. The "Out of my way" or barge through rule is only for when the defenders react.
For assault shenanigans it's also important to remember that you must move in a straight line, the shortest possible distance for the first model. This means you can force terrain checks with clever placement.
The assault tactics are pretty useful for anyone really... we just don't use and abuse these enough (streching your troop to only get a few in CC and reducing enemy response with vehicle comes to mind).
Good read, and I like the way it was brought up for all.
Just thought I would mention Dash that when making assault moves IC's don't have to move in first (in your haemonculi example). It's only when making pile in moves that they have to do so. For the longest time I thought the same too. Had to have it physically shown to me before I believed my opponent. And when I get home I'm gonna triple check it...
Lukus83 wrote:Just thought I would mention Dash that when making assault moves IC's don't have to move in first (in your haemonculi example). It's only when making pile in moves that they have to do so. For the longest time I thought the same too. Had to have it physically shown to me before I believed my opponent. And when I get home I'm gonna triple check it...
Lukus83 wrote:Just thought I would mention Dash that when making assault moves IC's don't have to move in first (in your haemonculi example). It's only when making pile in moves that they have to do so. For the longest time I thought the same too. Had to have it physically shown to me before I believed my opponent. And when I get home I'm gonna triple check it...
Page 49 is your reference, but I believe it was contentious...so the GWFAQ to the main rulebook clarified it. If there's an IC, you move closest to closest as part of your declaration of assault, then move any IC next. Unless....your IC is too far away! =D
*edit* Nope! I was wrong. I just reread the FAQ. Well, even better then, you don't have to worry about spacing to keep your ICs out of combat.
*further edit* I modified my first post to reflect my error. Thanks for the catch!
*further further edit* I've added my first set of pictures to demonstrate one of the scenarios I was talking about.
wileythenord wrote:I don't like you giving away all my Dark Eldar rules manipulations...Hopefully only our Dark Kin are reading this thread and not our enemies!
Bwahahaha, I am learning all of your dastardly army's tactics.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In all honesty though, this is an excellent thread for advice beyond just DE. Deployment, cover and movement shenanigans are very useful, no matter what army you use.
I certainly give this effort a thumbs up (I'm pretty sure I even recall telling you one or two of these ) But you added a lot of practical application stuff that I've never touched on in anything I've done (or seen explained concisely elsewhere) and I think it is good for new DE players to understand stuff like why some of our deployments look like awkward jumbles of models wedged together. Very cool stuff and well put together.
P.S. I usually listen to Sabaton's Art of War album prior to games - glad to know I'm not the only one who psyches up.
Thor665 wrote:I certainly give this effort a thumbs up (I'm pretty sure I even recall telling you one or two of these ) But you added a lot of practical application stuff that I've never touched on in anything I've done (or seen explained concisely elsewhere) and I think it is good for new DE players to understand stuff like why some of our deployments look like awkward jumbles of models wedged together. Very cool stuff and well put together.
P.S. I usually listen to Sabaton's Art of War album prior to games - glad to know I'm not the only one who psyches up.
Dashofpepper wrote:I'm just the Lord of the Dark Eldar.
For now...... There are always usurpers in Commoragh, Dash, your Incubi cannot protect you all the time....
Oh wait, new codex.....let me try that again!!
There are always usurpers in Commoragh, Dash, your Court of the Archon cannot protect you all the time.... or hardly any of the time for that matter from my playtesting....
There are always usurpers in Commoragh, Dash, your Court of the Archon cannot protect you all the time.... or hardly any of the time for that matter from my playtesting....
Hrm....you must not be familiar with the kind of armies that I play.
Presume that you'll be overrun with wyches, and those whips are NOT for BDSM.
There are always usurpers in Commoragh, Dash, your Court of the Archon cannot protect you all the time.... or hardly any of the time for that matter from my playtesting....
Hrm....you must not be familiar with the kind of armies that I play.
Presume that you'll be overrun with wyches, and those whips are NOT for BDSM.
If their not, you are not using those wyches for some of the things they are best at!!! Makes the soul taste sweeter when they whip the prisoner a bit first!!
Besides, I didn't say I had to come after you anytime soon.... a few millenia from now, when your slower, and not quite as attentive, that is when I will strike!!!
Thor665 wrote:SO...basically at the end of a Morgan binge is what I'm hearing?
Pssh...that's every major tournament. If I'm not swaying at the table by 11:00 AM, its only because I forgot to bring it. If I don't think every word out of your mouth is uproariously funny by 2:30 PM, I couldn't find a liquor store on the lunch break.
Thor665 wrote:SO...basically at the end of a Morgan binge is what I'm hearing?
Pssh...that's every major tournament. If I'm not swaying at the table by 11:00 AM, its only because I forgot to bring it. If I don't think every word out of your mouth is uproariously funny by 2:30 PM, I couldn't find a liquor store on the lunch break.
So what do you do if you forget it at your hotel and its Sunday??? At least its Sunday in a state that doesn't sell alcohol on Sundays, let me refine that a bit.
Whats the alternative? Rubbing alcohol? Listerine? Nyquil??? maybe turpentine??
"You get a free rotate during your movement phase. Rotating gives a 2.5" bonus!"
So in the rulebook it says that "turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." However, in effect you are using turning to increase the move to 14.5" from the original starting point, which is not covered in the rules. I don't feel that this is legal... can one of the Vets direct me to a FAQ on this or something?
Belerephon wrote:"You get a free rotate during your movement phase. Rotating gives a 2.5" bonus!"
So in the rulebook it says that "turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." However, in effect you are using turning to increase the move to 14.5" from the original starting point, which is not covered in the rules. I don't feel that this is legal... can one of the Vets direct me to a FAQ on this or something?
Actually, in the BRBpg. 57, the same part where you read about turning, read the next line or two. It tells you taht pivoting on the spot does not count as movement. That is the answer to what you are asking and what Dash is talking about.
Belerephon wrote:"You get a free rotate during your movement phase. Rotating gives a 2.5" bonus!"
So in the rulebook it says that "turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." However, in effect you are using turning to increase the move to 14.5" from the original starting point, which is not covered in the rules. I don't feel that this is legal... can one of the Vets direct me to a FAQ on this or something?
The pivot trick has been around since 3rd and GW hasn't made any attempt to remove it, its perfectly legal. Its not a huge factor in most cases because pivoting still counts as movement for any passengers, so closed top vehicles like Rhinos don't get anything out of it, and vehicles which are roughly square (most Imperial vehicles) don't get a huge gain from it in any case. The Raider and the Land Raider are the two main vehicles which use it, stuff like Battlewagons can use it, but they don't like being side on to things.
Thanks for taking the time to write all this up Dash I've been lurking and reading throught as you update it each day and have found it really helpful, I've got a few questions though...
Do you still think 3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks is the optimum load out for a beast squad? I've been playing around with them (in theory) for a week or two and can't make my mind up. I'm testing 2 or 3 set ups tonight (one as you suggested, one with an extra khymerae or two and one with a 4th master and 2 more flocks), but can't see how the'll have the killing power to get through a tactical squad or something, or the survivability to avoid flocks geting instasplatted by power fists ect.
Will you be getting pic's for some of the "abusing assault mechanics" section? I think I followed most of it, but I think they'd help if you have the time
Gorechild wrote:Thanks for taking the time to write all this up Dash I've been lurking and reading throught as you update it each day and have found it really helpful, I've got a few questions though...
Do you still think 3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks is the optimum load out for a beast squad? I've been playing around with them (in theory) for a week or two and can't make my mind up. I'm testing 2 or 3 set ups tonight (one as you suggested, one with an extra khymerae or two and one with a 4th master and 2 more flocks), but can't see how the'll have the killing power to get through a tactical squad or something, or the survivability to avoid flocks geting instasplatted by power fists ect.
Will you be getting pic's for some of the "abusing assault mechanics" section? I think I followed most of it, but I think they'd help if you have the time
Thanks again for making the thread!
Uh...I did....add pics....for some of the stuff......like 15-20.
Alright, in terms of beastmasters...
1. They don't get insta-splatted by powerfists because you have 4+ invulnerable saves on one-wound khymerae.
2. They don't get nuked by tactical squads because you have 5 wounds on a razorwing, and a couple extra beastmasters to toss wounds onto.
3. You go first. 4 beastmasters and 10 khymerae....that's 40 attacks at I6 at STR4, a few more from the beastmasters and whatever you've equipped them with, then 24 more from the razorwings at I5, only at STR3, but with bonus rending. You'll do some damage to a tactical squad before they attack back.
I don't think that there's an "optimal" setup for beast units - just whatever you think is the size you need for what you want them for. I think two units would be a good idea - I never did it because I didn't have the models.
loved the article.
the pictures gave clarity to concepts that are alot easier to see than visualize.
the main thing I took from this is this:
be aggressive! I cannot say it enough that when i've lost or come close to losing a game, it has been because i've second guessed myself or chose to "see what my opponent is going to do" and played the counter game.
DE is all about strike first, strike hard, no mercy and all that good stuff. period.
it's nice, dash, that you made it a point to emphasize this over and over in your post. it can't be said enough. waiting around with paper airplanes and toothpicks will only see bad things happen.
Powerguy wrote:The pivot trick has been around since 3rd and GW hasn't made any attempt to remove it, its perfectly legal. Its not a huge factor in most cases because pivoting still counts as movement for any passengers, so closed top vehicles like Rhinos don't get anything out of it, and vehicles which are roughly square (most Imperial vehicles) don't get a huge gain from it in any case. The Raider and the Land Raider are the two main vehicles which use it, stuff like Battlewagons can use it, but they don't like being side on to things.
Had to answer this because it was in another thread wrong also... pivoting only counts as movement for anything embarking or disembarking that turn. Other than that it does NOT count as movement for passengers in a vehicle.
Dash, gotta ask if you ever go on VASSAL and not bet money on the game??? If so, I would love to fight one before I am gone for a year. Just PM me and let me know so we can maybe setup a date aand time for it, thanks!!!
I hardly ever play for money. There are simply too few people with the balls to back up their attitude.
I mostly use Vassal to playtest. I've been on there fairly often the last couple of weeks trying to find GK players so that I can get a feel for what they are like. I'm Dashofpepper on Skype. If you want a Vassal game against me, the best way to do it is to get Skype if you don't have it, add me to your friends' list, and send me a PM to schedule a game.
Dashofpepper wrote:I hardly ever play for money. There are simply too few people with the balls to back up their attitude.
I mostly use Vassal to playtest. I've been on there fairly often the last couple of weeks trying to find GK players so that I can get a feel for what they are like. I'm Dashofpepper on Skype. If you want a Vassal game against me, the best way to do it is to get Skype if you don't have it, add me to your friends' list, and send me a PM to schedule a game.
Great article! If i could get on skype/find the time, I'd play you... but not for money. I've learned that my dice betray me when I do play for money. There IS a possibility I'd play you for booze however : )
wouldn't the marines in contact with the raider have the option to attack the Raider instead as much as wyches hurling haywire grenades into the secondary target, the rhino?
Tavitin wrote:In the picture explaining denial of attacks:
wouldn't the marines in contact with the raider have the option to attack the Raider instead as much as wyches hurling haywire grenades into the secondary target, the rhino?
No. During assault and defender's react, you are allowed to ignore the usual rule that says you may not place a model within 1" of an enemy model. However, you cannot move into base contact an enemy unit you are not assaulting, you may only move into base contact with an unengaged enemy unit BY assaulting it, which you cannot do during your opponent's turn when you are being assaulted.
Make sense?
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frgsinwntr wrote: There IS a possibility I'd play you for booze however : )
Definitely enjoyed this. I may not agree with everything (I prefer Kabalite/shooty and am mostly in friendly games around town) but it definitely helped out a lot. The pictures and explanations especially.
I also completely agree with mindset being an important factor. I ve been doing that for years. I have seen it so many times...you demoralize your opponent a bit...and all the sudden the dice don t roll as well. Or, you have your mindset and confidence in your victory firmly in place, and you get a couple dice rolls where you really need them. Which may also serve to demoralize your opponent.
DraconicGuardian wrote:Definitely enjoyed this. I may not agree with everything (I prefer Kabalite/shooty and am mostly in friendly games around town) but it definitely helped out a lot. The pictures and explanations especially.
I also completely agree with mindset being an important factor. I ve been doing that for years. I have seen it so many times...you demoralize your opponent a bit...and all the sudden the dice don t roll as well. Or, you have your mindset and confidence in your victory firmly in place, and you get a couple dice rolls where you really need them. Which may also serve to demoralize your opponent.
I have some legendary games of bad dice rolls. Playing a KP game against Mech IG where I shoot so badly that I don't kill a vehicle until turn5. 2/26 hits on a 3+ with darklight weapons against full-on Mech BA. I honestly do believe that my mentality going into a game has as much to do with me winning as anything I do on the tabletop.
In endorse everything that was said in the OP, as a DE player since I got the 3rd edition box set from GW circa 1998 or so.
On the mental attitude side, I'd also consider this. Part of fielding any army is the mindset behind running the army. DE's army mindset happens to be not only the one depicted in the background but the one that wins games with them.
Even if you're not playing competitively, Dark Eldar are an in-your-face, go-for-the-throat kind of army. That's how they roll. There's no excuse for behaving poorly to an opponent, of course, but that doesn't mean you can't be affably evil. It's all part of the fun. The Mon'keigh get to pretend they're the last shining hope for the universe and we get to take that hope and grind it under our heels.
I really enjoyed the psycological warfare part of the review...
I play craftworld Eldar, and I often find myself smiling a bit and reminding them that they need to roll 3d6 and perils on a 12+ against my runes of warding when they declare a psychic power
About half of the time they'll put the dice down, and if they aren't casting they aren't using that psychic power which they purchased.
Then again I usually have to tell them anyway because everybody always forgets about warding and they just pick up their 2 dice.
Belerephon wrote:"You get a free rotate during your movement phase. Rotating gives a 2.5" bonus!"
So in the rulebook it says that "turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." However, in effect you are using turning to increase the move to 14.5" from the original starting point, which is not covered in the rules. I don't feel that this is legal... can one of the Vets direct me to a FAQ on this or something?
Actually, in the BRBpg. 57, the same part where you read about turning, read the next line or two. It tells you taht pivoting on the spot does not count as movement. That is the answer to what you are asking and what Dash is talking about.
I appreciate the patronize attitude. It says in the rulebook, and I quote, "pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement. With that said I still don't think it is explicitly clear that this is legal, and in the games I play I have not allowed this. The fact is that a vehicle that adds a 2.5" pivot is moving 14.5" from the original destination, not the 12" it's allowed. Could someone please be more clear about this without talking to me like I'm five?
You say you get a 2.5" bonus pivot in movement, isn't that not true because unless the pivot is a 180 degree pivot it counts as moving moving that 2.5 inches? I read the movement rules off to my Dark Eldar friend at least 10 times every game so that he understands that pivoting as such counts as movement, so I'm pretty sure that it is movement.
EDIT : Sorry it looks like the person right above me already wrote this. Sorry. Guess I got Ninja'd.
Other than this though, this Guide has given me a lot more ideas when playing as and against Dark Eldar. Thanks Dash, though really look into that ruling.
First off, I wasn't trying to be patronizing, so sorry you took it that way. Hard to send any kind of vocal tone through the net, but anyway....
Reread your vehicle movement rules. While it does say that pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement, it also states that a vehicle can turn as many times as it moves, and that turning does not reduce the vehicles move. That is the part that means that you can be parallel to the long table edge, then turn 90 degrees and be perpendicular to the long table edge and it will not effect your movement. So for the guy that reads the vehicle movement rules 10 times, you have been reading them to him wrong if you haven't been doing this. But as usual, you can houserule anything and play it however you want.
Belerephon wrote:First, sorry for thinking you were being patronizing. I have a bad habit of seeing evil where there is none online.
However, whilst the rule does say pivoting does not reduce move, it does not say that it increases move. What about that?
Yes, but a pivot is also just a turn, and you are told to measure everything from the hull, except for assaulting skimmers in which case you can assault the hull or the base, so that is where this instance comes from. You can also do this with ANY vehicle, not just the Dark Eldar's. You can place a Rhino sideways, and in its movement, rotate it 90 degrees, and then measure for movement. It works for all armies, and has been setup this way since 3rd edition. Not saying you should use it in a friendly game, thats your choice of course, but trust me, alot of people will use it in tournaments, as it is perfectly legal.
And its all good about it, Like I said, its hard to read vocal tone and facial expressions through the net!!
Each vehicle has a center. When you pivot and move, the center still has moved only 12". The Prow of your Raider, though, is now a bit further towards the enemy, giving you more effective range for shooting and assault; however, as stated, the movement in relation to the center is completely standard.
Galador wrote:First off, I wasn't trying to be patronizing, so sorry you took it that way. Hard to send any kind of vocal tone through the net, but anyway....
Reread your vehicle movement rules. While it does say that pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement, it also states that a vehicle can turn as many times as it moves, and that turning does not reduce the vehicles move. That is the part that means that you can be parallel to the long table edge, then turn 90 degrees and be perpendicular to the long table edge and it will not effect your movement. So for the guy that reads the vehicle movement rules 10 times, you have been reading them to him wrong if you haven't been doing this. But as usual, you can houserule anything and play it however you want.
I have always read the rule as turning doesn't make your movement go any further down. It doesn't seem to me that it would be fair if a longer vehicle had such an extreme advantage, especially an open-topped vehicle....
I know for certain from reading the section of disembarking troops that if a vehicle pivots 180 degrees exactly the troops can get out as though the vehicle did not move, but if the vehicle pivots any other direction (whether it moved or not) that counts the troops as disembarking from a vehicle that moved. So I guess I assumed that the vehicle always counted pivoting as movement for some reason.
Thanks for a rules clarification, I'll have to apologize to my friend. Sorry and thanks.
However, whilst the rule does say pivoting does not reduce move, it does not say that it increases move. What about that?
Indeed. A pivot has moved 0". You have not increased your moving distance.
Decreasing the range to a target is not the same as increasing your own movement range. Another example: Lash of submission. You lash someone 12" towards you. You didn't increase your movement, you just decreased the distance between you.
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grayspark wrote:
I have always read the rule as turning doesn't make your movement go any further down. It doesn't seem to me that it would be fair if a longer vehicle had such an extreme advantage, especially an open-topped vehicle....
I know for certain from reading the section of disembarking troops that if a vehicle pivots 180 degrees exactly the troops can get out as though the vehicle did not move, but if the vehicle pivots any other direction (whether it moved or not) that counts the troops as disembarking from a vehicle that moved. So I guess I assumed that the vehicle always counted pivoting as movement for some reason.
Thanks for a rules clarification, I'll have to apologize to my friend. Sorry and thanks.
Where are you getting the 180 degree bit from? Disembarkation rules are on page 67 and I don't see anything relevant to that. If a vehicle pivots, it counts as having moved for disembarkation purposes regardless of the number of degrees it pivoted.
Witzkatz wrote:Each vehicle has a center. When you pivot and move, the center still has moved only 12". The Prow of your Raider, though, is now a bit further towards the enemy, giving you more effective range for shooting and assault; however, as stated, the movement in relation to the center is completely standard.
This. Thanks, this is the only way I can really rationalize this to myself.
Where are you getting the 180 degree bit from? Disembarkation rules are on page 67 and I don't see anything relevant to that. If a vehicle pivots, it counts as having moved for disembarkation purposes regardless of the number of degrees it pivoted.
Ah, sorry for wasting your time on this but it ties in to me not understanding the movement rules in the first place. When it says "Pivot On Spot" I used to believe that Pivoting used movement... and the only way to Pivot without "moving" in my sense of the rules was a full 180, because you're in the same spot but backwards. Sorry.
Dashofpepper
Thank you for your excellent guide to Dark Eldar.
Might have to find some time to play you on vassal either with Space Wolves or Dark Eldar mirror.
Gorefiend
I been running the two units of 3 Beast Masters with 5 Kymerae and 4 Razorwing Flocks for my fast attack over a larger unit and I really like them in my MSU list full of venoms and raiders with 3 ravagers. Beasts are quick enough to get where you want even without a webway portal and if you support them with Venoms with Grisly trophies the leadership issue is bearable. I prefer the 2 units because you can be in 2 places if you want and you lose less to a bad leadership roll. If you need to multi assault like against large units of orks you can but the small unit of beasts as long as it didn't take too many casualties is enough to take out the many small units of 5 marines many people are running these days.
Gorechild wrote:Thanks for taking the time to write all this up Dash I've been lurking and reading throught as you update it each day and have found it really helpful, I've got a few questions though...
Do you still think 3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks is the optimum load out for a beast squad? I've been playing around with them (in theory) for a week or two and can't make my mind up. I'm testing 2 or 3 set ups tonight (one as you suggested, one with an extra khymerae or two and one with a 4th master and 2 more flocks), but can't see how the'll have the killing power to get through a tactical squad or something, or the survivability to avoid flocks geting instasplatted by power fists ect.
Will you be getting pic's for some of the "abusing assault mechanics" section? I think I followed most of it, but I think they'd help if you have the time
Thanks again for making the thread!
Uh...I did....add pics....for some of the stuff......like 15-20.
Aah sorry, I can't see them at work I'll have to sit down and re-read it all this evening
Dashofpepper wrote:Alright, in terms of beastmasters...
1. They don't get insta-splatted by powerfists because you have 4+ invulnerable saves on one-wound khymerae.
2. They don't get nuked by tactical squads because you have 5 wounds on a razorwing, and a couple extra beastmasters to toss wounds onto.
3. You go first. 4 beastmasters and 10 khymerae....that's 40 attacks at I6 at STR4, a few more from the beastmasters and whatever you've equipped them with, then 24 more from the razorwings at I5, only at STR3, but with bonus rending. You'll do some damage to a tactical squad before they attack back.
I don't think that there's an "optimal" setup for beast units - just whatever you think is the size you need for what you want them for. I think two units would be a good idea - I never did it because I didn't have the models.
I know the general idea around how to allocate wounds on then, I was just a little unsure about how long the razorwings would last in practice. I've found after reading your lists, that Baron is really helping though.
I don't think I'll be able to afford (£-wise) a second unit of them, even though I got a load of my beasts for free it's still a really expensive unit
Avariel wrote:Gorefiend
I been running the two units of 3 Beast Masters with 5 Kymerae and 4 Razorwing Flocks for my fast attack over a larger unit and I really like them in my MSU list full of venoms and raiders with 3 ravagers. Beasts are quick enough to get where you want even without a webway portal and if you support them with Venoms with Grisly trophies the leadership issue is bearable. I prefer the 2 units because you can be in 2 places if you want and you lose less to a bad leadership roll. If you need to multi assault like against large units of orks you can but the small unit of beasts as long as it didn't take too many casualties is enough to take out the many small units of 5 marines many people are running these days.
I assume you mean me? at he moment I'm running 3 masters, 4 Khymerae and 4 flocks (until I get round to getting more), I'm aiming for 4/5/6 + the baron. I could try splitting these up in two, but I'd need more beast masters and half of them would be loosing out on the PGL and +1 cover, I'm not sure if this is worthwhile splitting them.
Witzkatz wrote:Each vehicle has a center. When you pivot and move, the center still has moved only 12". The Prow of your Raider, though, is now a bit further towards the enemy, giving you more effective range for shooting and assault; however, as stated, the movement in relation to the center is completely standard.
This. Thanks, this is the only way I can really rationalize this to myself.
/Question.
Pretty much this. In the case of a Raider, I move my raider base 12 inches. I then pivot 90 degrees. However, my base will not have moved at all, and will still only have moved twelve inches. Hence, I've moved twelve inches.
It's a kunnin' trick, and one I intend to start making full use of.....
I love that pivot rule. I've used it, plus my Raider's very long hull ram, to get my Archon almost 18" up a table, then dropped a WWP. Getting a table edge 20" or so up from your Raider's start location is great fun, especially when the cloud of Hellions and Wyches come pouring through it.
I enjoyed this tactica immensely and while I do not play Dark Eldar I have found that much of what you talk about is useful for every army. I have two questions for you and one question for any moderator who might be reading this:
Questions for Dash;
1) Have you considered creating a general tactica that is not army specific? why or why not?
2) What are the possibilities that you and the other exceptional gamers you deal with could write similar tacticas for armies that you/they are proficient with (for you I would like to see orks. Hulksmash I'm sure has armies he could write about, etc.), I understand this is a lot of work for you but I have a feeling that the community would benefit immensely from it.
For the Moderator:
1) Can we get this stickied? It really is too good to fall by the wayside.
Thanks,
Luke
*edited because I apparently can't keep my tenses straight*
Grey Knight Luke wrote:1) Have you considered creating a general tactica that is not army specific? why or why not?
Mon'Keigh can die in a fire. I hope every one of them submit to self-flagellation with whips made of sharpened non-Dark Eldar (we're already pointy) in penance for choosing to be part of an inferior species.
I should lock this thread, delete the content and make it available only to those who prove to be followers of the way of pain and torment. Then we can all conspire together to host a GT trap, where we lure Mon'Keigh in with the promise of victory and spoils, then drop half of them into rusty spike traps so that we can waft in the delectable scent of their terror and death while we torment the other half into submission before inviting them to recant their inferiority by feasting on the innards of their living and tormented brethren.
DARK ELDAR FOR LIFE!!
*edit* At least until I get fired about something else.
Dashofpepper wrote: Mon'Keigh can die in a fire. I hope every one of them submit to self-flagellation with whips made of sharpened non-Dark Eldar (we're already pointy) in penance for choosing to be part of an inferior species.
I should lock this thread, delete the content and make it available only to those who prove to be followers of the way of pain and torment. Then we can all conspire together to host a GT trap, where we lure Mon'Keigh in with the promise of victory and spoils, then drop half of them into rusty spike traps so that we can waft in the delectable scent of their terror and death while we torment the other half into submission before inviting them to recant their inferiority by feasting on the innards of their living and tormented brethren.
DARK ELDAR FOR LIFE!!
Eeeeexcellent. <insert maniacal laughter> But why only half, Lord? Save the others for later?
(Btw, Dash...I have already seen at least two quotes stolen from here for signatures.)
The other half are being tormented into submissions (through games of 40k at the GT) until they recant their inferiority by feasting on the innards of their living and tormented brethren, who are screaming pitifully from the rusty spike traps.
And after they have opened themselves to evil by gorging themselves in cannibalism, we would of course rip THEM open and feast upon the innards in the innards of our ....*head asplodes*
While pivoting is done by using the center of the vehicle... moving a vehicle and measuring movement is done from the hull. So in effect, yes, you are moving farther than the vehicle's cruising speed move. In all of my travels, I've never seen someone attempt this because of how you measure a vehicles move from the hull. By turning it as such you've essentially exceeded the vehicles maximum move. The last paragraph under Vehicles and Movement even indicates that in the third sentence. :shrugs:
Besides that little sticking point with me...the article is great and is a wealth of information for people looking to play DE but may have been intimidated not to. Good job!
CaptKaruthors wrote:While pivoting is done by using the center of the vehicle... moving a vehicle and measuring movement is done from the hull. So in effect, yes, you are moving farther than the vehicle's cruising speed move. In all of my travels, I've never seen someone attempt this because of how you measure a vehicles move from the hull. By turning it as such you've essentially exceeded the vehicles maximum move. The last paragraph under Vehicles and Movement even indicates that in the third sentence. :shrugs:
Concur. I believe there have been several YMDC threads about this as well that always end badly.
Also, the picture showing the first Multi-assault against the chimera's isn't quite right, as the second wych that makes it to the second chimera can actually also contact the first, but I understand the intent there. It's a pain using Vassal.
CaptKaruthors wrote:While pivoting is done by using the center of the vehicle... moving a vehicle and measuring movement is done from the hull. So in effect, yes, you are moving farther than the vehicle's cruising speed move. In all of my travels, I've never seen someone attempt this because of how you measure a vehicles move from the hull. By turning it as such you've essentially exceeded the vehicles maximum move. The last paragraph under Vehicles and Movement even indicates that in the third sentence. :shrugs:
Besides that little sticking point with me...the article is great and is a wealth of information for people looking to play DE but may have been intimidated not to. Good job!
I fail to see your issue?
You measure from the hull - yes. You are free to pivot anytime during your movement phase, unlmiited number of times. Pivot the direction you turn, then measure 12" and go. You still only moved 12". Regardless of which way I pivot, I get to move 12" before, after, or during doing so. To be honest, I'd rather have an AV11 or AV12 open-topped vehicle without a narrow front, but I don't. We use the tools given to us.
If you pivot a rhino 45 degrees and move cruising speed, do you only measure 11.3"? No....because pivoting is free.
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whitedragon wrote:
Also, the picture showing the first Multi-assault against the chimera's isn't quite right, as the second wych that makes it to the second chimera can actually also contact the first, but I understand the intent there. It's a pain using Vassal.
Not sure I understand. Having declared a secondary target, models can freely move into base with either (unless another target is declared too). In this case, I'm free to move into contact with the second chimera because I've declared a multi-assault, had range to get to it, was moving into base contact, and kept coherency with a previously assaulted model.
There aren't any rules governing assault that those conditions didn't meet.
I agree with Dashofpepper on how vehicle movement works. It is really stupid and almost feels like cheating with certain vehicles, but that is how GW made the game and they are free to fix it if they so choose (which we all know they won't because GW is full of buffoons).
Belerephon wrote:Dash... so that cruel, malicious mindset you speak of at the beginning of your article. Would you say that should be uniquely DE? Or is that an attitude you'd advocate any 40k player adopting?
I think it was DE specific. Eldar can't do that and tyranids focus on working together as one. DE being so fragile, they have to destroy everything asap.
OTOH, you shouldn't think about focusing on objectives to easily in the game. In an objectives based mission, your opponents scoring units should be on your mind.
I think all armies should be played that way. However the DE due to their cheap and effective offensive firepower and manueverability are uniquely suited to do this. Sadly the DE through their paper airplanes and syphilitic toughness are also uniquely suited to getting the blade turned on them.
Running DE is running a cold calculated surgery on your opponent every turn. Now 4 out of 5 in full fledged match ups. Only problem uncovered is when facing Daemon with a heavy slaanesh theme - too much speed and too many invulnerable saves to take them out quick.
Too many of you focusing on the rotate/move thing. It's not DoP's invention, nor his duty to have to defend/explain it; it's in the rules and he's smart enough to use the rules to their full advantage.
My only question here is why people have trouble with Daemons with Dark Eldar. I've played Daemons many times with DE, it's practically an auto win and usually a tabling. Even against the fastest, shootiest Slaanesh/Tzeentch list, you have so much more firepower, will only get hit on 6s, have loads of splinter fire for MCs... I don't doubt you all, I just haven't seen it. At all. Force them to go first if you can, reserve, and overwhelm what hits the table in piecemeal.
Too many of you focusing on the rotate/move thing. It's not DoP's invention, nor his duty to have to defend/explain it; it's in the rules and he's smart enough to use the rules to their full advantage.
My only question here is why people have trouble with Daemons with Dark Eldar. I've played Daemons many times with DE, it's practically an auto win and usually a tabling. Even against the fastest, shootiest Slaanesh/Tzeentch list, you have so much more firepower, will only get hit on 6s, have loads of splinter fire for MCs... I don't doubt you all, I just haven't seen it. At all. Force them to go first if you can, reserve, and overwhelm what hits the table in piecemeal.
It depends on how much shooting is in the daemon army, what kind of DE army you're playing....and if you reserve, you *also* come in piecemeal, with 3/4 of the daemon army on the table ready to engage your 1/2.
moonshine wrote:This is really great advice. What do you do about drop pod armies though ?, esspecially dreadnought drop pod armies. Any advice would be great. Thanks
Dreadnoughts can't assault the turn they come in, they can only shoot. I covered this in my guide - do the same thing you would do against any other army that reserves up on you. Move flat out with everything, so that the dreads drop in on you getting 4+ saves. They'll hit or miss, and die in return. Restrict their ability to deep-strike and where with your vehicles. Personally, if I was playing against a pure drop pod army, I would flat out up the sides (about 6" in) with some of my vehicles so that when they get 1/2 of their pods on the first turn, whatever comes into play is in range of my whole army from the get-go - I close in, kill whatever is there, and wait for the reserve rolls on the rest.
Dashofpepper wrote:You measure from the hull - yes. You are free to pivot anytime during your movement phase, unlmiited number of times. Pivot the direction you turn, then measure 12" and go. You still only moved 12". Regardless of which way I pivot, I get to move 12" before, after, or during doing so. To be honest, I'd rather have an AV11 or AV12 open-topped vehicle without a narrow front, but I don't. We use the tools given to us.
If you pivot a rhino 45 degrees and move cruising speed, do you only measure 11.3"? No....because pivoting is free.
I just had a thought, if you are free to pivot as many times as you like in a movement, would you be able to do this?
1. Start sideways right against the edge of your deployment zone
2. Pivot 90 degrees
3. Move 12" from the front of the vehicle, finishing sideways again
4. Pivot 90 degrees
This would give you twice as much extra distance, basically letting you disembark 5" further forward than if you had just moved straight without pivoting at all. Is it a legal move?
Since you measure from the centre point (for the pivot) I don't think you are gaining any advantage in movement besides the original pivot. If you miss out step 3 you get the same result...I think.
Right, vehicles can't move sideways, as pictured in step 3. Vehicles can only move forward and back, as specified in the movement rules.
For what it's worth, I'm also of the opinion that if any part of the vehicle has moved more than the declared speed, the vehicle has exceeded its maximum move. This is the way I move my vehicles when I play.
You pivot around the center, but the rules don't say anything about measuring movement from the center. Movement is measured from the hull, which has displaced 14.5" in this example.
But before this thread goes OT again into a replication of the many YMDC threads on this question, I think the important thing to know from a *tactical* standpoint is that the rule is controversial, and a large number of players read it the other way. So if you can't persuade your opponent or if you get vetoed by a TO or judge, you may have to do without this tactic. I personally would allow it (and would follow suit myself if my opponent were doing it), but some opponents may always consider this kind of movement as a form of overmeasuring, and might ding you on soft scores or whatever.
Lukus83 wrote:Since you measure from the centre point (for the pivot) I don't think you are gaining any advantage in movement besides the original pivot. If you miss out step 3 you get the same result...I think.
If you didn't do the extra pivot, the tip of the raider would end up where the side is in pic 3, so you would be getting extra distance......if its legal
If I can go ahead and just disagree with Ashenshugar and advise pretty much the opposite of him. =D
#1: The absolute best partner for Dark Eldar in a tournament is no one. Two generals on the field are never going to be as competent in making unified decisions as one general would be.
#2: For a team to be successful, someone needs to swallow their pride and be the subordinate. General and Adjutant. An adjutant plays their army, inputs ideas, but the general has overall command of the battle; and if they have two different ideas, the general has the final say.
#3: If you *must* team with someone, the best teammate is the one that is a better gamer than you, regardless of what army they play.
In terms of which codex pairs best with Dark Eldar for a tournament, it depends on points and how the codexes interact. If it was 1,000 point apiece, imagine the Dark Eldar "team" fielding 6 ravagers with flickerfields, 6 units of trueborn in venoms, 4 wych squads, Baron Sathonyx, and a couple of haemonculi - or another Baron Sathonyx if you could stack the +1 to go first. Or fielding Corbulo to reroll your +1 to go first. I'm hazy on all the codexes influence on rerolls and stuff, so don't flay me if that was wrong.
I had a team tournament a few weeks ago; I wasn't intending to go because I'm not a fan of team events - but my friend's partner fell through and he wasn't going to go anymore, so I conditionally offered to step in and partner up - with the condition that he be my adjutant - I'd value his input and listen to him, but if we disagree about something, my decision overrides. He brought his Orks, I brought my Dark Eldar, and since I play both codexes, this is my favorite pairing.
I brought Baron Sathonyx, two wych squads, 3 units of trueborn in venoms, and 3 ravagers.
He brought a KFF Big Mek, two units of gretchin, 3 units of Lootas (15/8/5 or something) and nine killa-kans with rokkits.
Killa-kans are tall enough to provide a cover save to Dark Eldar vehicles, while the kans themselves are getting cover saves from the KFF Big Mek, my wyches were protecting his Lootas from assault, and his Lootas and my firing support were scything the battlefield clear of everything. With all the Lootas on the field, I didn't have to focus my lances on AV11; he did that while I went after AV12 and 13. When one of our opponents dropped 9 wyches off in front of one of our two scoring gretchin units and a unit of my wyches and I realized that he had FNP and I didn't....well, Loota fire STR7 double toughness, and 4+ cover isn't so much. After a volley from his 15 Lootas, there were two wyches left, which I gladly went and snatched a pain token from.
Killa-kans have a STR10 close combat punch much better than tarpitting units like wyches do.
Game 1: We gave up 400 victory points and tabled our opponents (DE + Sisters of Battle)
Game 2: We gave up 0 victory points and tabled our opponents (DE + Blood Angels)
Game 3: We played against Team Twilight (Blood Angels + Space Wolves). The SW player had triple long fangs, grey hunters in rhinos, while the BA player had a drop-pod dreadnought and several units of jetpack assault infantry. All those assault infantry went after my wyches (and killed them) in exchange for getting counter-assaulted by three units of killa-kans (which in turn wiped out the BA player), after I spent two turns firing all my darklight weapons at his dreadnought and drop pod. Boom, then it was 2v1. And that's why you can't have two generals. The SW player told the BA player not to suicide into us, strongly encouraged him not to, but without the ability to countermand his partner, their strategies differed too wildly.
That's my advice. Its more about your partner than the list they bring.
I love how you said you disagree with me, and then throw an example completely agreeing with my main point, which was a fire base to the DE assault. Team games in my neck of the woods are always two different codex's, so double dark eldar is not an option. Personally I would contend that the ork half of your army, while shooty, will never be as as shooty as some of the examples I gave. So thank you for completely agreeing with me
As to your points on the "better general" in control (which I had not spoke about in the slightest) I agree to a point. I play chess at the master level, so while I might not be a 40k rules lawyer, I can usually point out strategic mistakes some of my friends make during games. Making sure to point them out so I can learn rules I may be fuzzy on, and find better ways to abuse mechanics that they did not see.
I think the only thing you and I actually disagree on, is the use of beastmasters. You see them as a point filler when you can't buy another group of wyches, I see them as the main workhorse of the assault force, and wyches are there only to support them. You have said yourself you don't have enough models to field two units of the beasts, I can only hope one day you try and field them to see what two full units can do. I have a 1250 teams tournament (with rules like wargear doesn't benefit your partner) coming up in a couple weeks, and my partner will be playing IG (with triple maticores, mech vet). I'm playing with points trying to figure out how many wyches vs beastmasters I want.
@Gorechild: Measure from your starting position to your finished position. I'm not sure how far you're trying to move in that situation. If your starting to ending position is whatever your movement speed is, then it is legal.
Flavius: Rotating doesn't cause a vehicle to move more than the declared speed. Any part of it. To be blunt, I have no further interest (since we've gotten a full page out of it so far) in continuing to discuss with people whether they personally choose to follow the rules or not. There *IS* no reading the rulebook the other way on this, it is explicitly clear.
From a tactical standpoint, you feel like it is important for others to be aware that the rule is in contention and that a large number of players read it the other way.
I'll counter with this: From a tactical standpoint, I've never met another player.....in my travels around the entire country....against whom I could not open the the rulebook, point out the rotating and movement paragraphs, and for them to bow to the rulebook.
There *are* people who read the rulebook to mean that rotating costs you movement distance. There *are* people who believe that disembarking within 2" of the access points means that your models must be entirely contained within that 2" and that the picture in the book is a misprint. There *are* people who believe that regardless of the DoW deployment description about 1 HQ "unit" and two troop "units" with further explanation, that they can continue to deploy troops in transports, and that the transports don't count against their deployment allotment.
1. I don't give a fething heretic.
2. These people generally don't show up at tournaments. They generally consider tournament players to be WAAC anyway, and unfun to play against.
3. Everywhere I've been - from California to Pennsylvania, to Florida, NC, LA, GA, D.C., MS, MI....every major event I've been to in the last year....these "house-rule" viewpoints aren't welcome. These aren't even contentious arguments. There are no conflicting codexes to decide between, just a clear illustration and explanation in the rulebook of how to act.
4. While incompetence rears its ugly head locally, amongst players who don't know better - please do NOT advise that there are a "large number of people" who read it the other way. That is not true.
5. This guide is about how to slaughter and maim. Making an army with my advice and using it with my advice to the point of being able to table someone without the loss of a single model is not something you practice regularly amongst your local group - the kind of people who may or may not hold mistaken beliefs about the rules depending on their knowledge of the rulebook. This is for COMPETITIVE TOURNAMENT PLAY. And deviant interpretations of the rulebook without substantive ground don't stand up there.
On that note, with a page already lost to this pointless argument, drop it. It has been discussed enough, its starting to piss me off, and is ultimately not relevant to the OP.
@Ashenshugar: ......pulling a quote without contextual basis from another thread to insert into a different thread....so that you can reference my disagreement with you about a separate topic and somehow manage to call it agreement with you, despite the fact that the entire post is a disagreement with you, and then go further to advocate that the sole disagreement is in my belief on something that is absolutely not my belief.....your post is a trainwreck of misunderstanding, uncontextual quoting, and nothing relevant to this thread. How did this conversation even end here?
I don't mean to sound angry; I'm not angry at you - this is a thread about being angry being a good thing, and I just had to read a page full of "I don't follow the rules because they are inconvenient to how I think 40k should be played" which always irritates me. I'm going to have to go find your original quote to put my response (and then your response to mine) into context. I additionally find it offensive that you would say something like "Thank you for completely agreeing with me" when I find the very foundation of your strategic insights into the game unstable and counter-productive. At this point, I'm suspecting that you're not actually a Dark Eldar player, but rather something else trying to post misinformation to "help" DE players when in reality you are trying to confuse us.
Ah, there it is. Your advise on teaming with DE.
Ashenshugar wrote:IG w/ Manticores, SW w/ Long Fangs, any razorback spam, DOA. I wouldn't say orks because you would have too many things trying to rush into CC. You would need things to sit back and shoot with maybe 1 deathstar to linebreak while the wyches cover the frontlines.
Too many things rushing into CC with Orks. Triple units of killa-kans rushing into CC seemed to work pretty good for my team tournament. Half his points tied up in close combat units trying to get up in your grille? It worked pretty good. A bit of Loota support behind a Kan Wall with a mobile DE blasterwing....like I said, I disagreed with pretty much all your advice. IG, SW, and razorback spam are sort of uniquely *not* suited to complementing a DE army.
There's a team tournament discussion thread that I created yesterday at the top of the forums here. Why don't you post your DE/your choice ideas there for discussion? That way we can keep this one about...DE tactics.
Dashofpepper wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whitedragon wrote:
Also, the picture showing the first Multi-assault against the chimera's isn't quite right, as the second wych that makes it to the second chimera can actually also contact the first, but I understand the intent there. It's a pain using Vassal.
Not sure I understand. Having declared a secondary target, models can freely move into base with either (unless another target is declared too). In this case, I'm free to move into contact with the second chimera because I've declared a multi-assault, had range to get to it, was moving into base contact, and kept coherency with a previously assaulted model.
There aren't any rules governing assault that those conditions didn't meet.
You don't declare multiple assaults. You declare your target, and then follow the assault rules to make sure you get all models in btb or within 2" of models that are btb. There are several bullet points to discuss how to do this on that page, I believe it's 22 but I don't have the rulebook on me.
On that same page, is a header for "Multiple Assaults". It says that sometimes you may find that you are able to contact multiple units as you move your models. You may do so, provided you follow the bullets in the previous paragraph about moving assaulting models.
Ergo, if you are able to move a model into btb with your intended target, you must, which in your diagram, it shows that the right most wych could do that, but goes to the other chimera instead. A better example would be to show one of the other wyches moving in after that wych had moved, or moving the chimera's a little bit in the diagram to better show the charge lanes and such.
As such, I don't believe your diagram is complete correct the way it's shown and per the way the rulebook describes assaults/multiple assaults.
whitedragon wrote:On that same page, is a header for "Multiple Assaults". It says that sometimes you may find that you are able to contact multiple units as you move your models. You may do so, provided you follow the bullets in the previous paragraph about moving assaulting models.
Ergo, if you are able to move a model into btb with your intended target, you must, which in your diagram, it shows that the right most wych could do that, but goes to the other chimera instead. A better example would be to show one of the other wyches moving in after that wych had moved, or moving the chimera's a little bit in the diagram to better show the charge lanes and such.
Actually, it does not state that you have to move into B2B with your intended unit. If you read the assaults part, it states you must move into B2B contact with ANY enemy model that is not in base contact already that is within reach. So, the way Dash did it and his pictures are correct. Only the closest model must make it into B2B with the original target, after that, the rest of th unit can contact any other unit they want, as long as they maintain coherency and move into B2B if possible.
Whitedragon, might be worth your while to peek at your rulebook again.
As a general request, if anyone wishes to discuss rules, could you go to YMDC? I'm quite familiar with the rules, the tactics I've posted follow accordingly, I can assure everyone that nothing I've posted breaks any of them, but rather follows them to the letter - and I would much rather this thread discuss the tactical value or variations of what I've written, or some Q&A about strategy than be muddled down having to explain rules to people.
That isn't to say that I never make a mistake in a game, or confuse a rule with something else - just that the tactics in this thread are quite cut and dry in the rulebook. Nightmare Dolls, Horrorfexes...PtP prior to the FAQ - those were things not cut and dry. Nothing here is remotely similar.
That's a simple one. No. WWP is too easy to defend against. Move away from the portal and shoot whatever comes out.
DEWWP army goes first:
Opponent deploys over 24" away from the center of board. Does a little moving for optimal fire lanes etc after the wwp is deployed and makes sure they aren't within 24" of the portal and then shoots "everything" at him turn 1. Turn 2, 1/2 of the army emerges, can't get into cc, opponent then shoots everything that's left stuck out in the open.
....or... moves as fast as possilbe to the wwp, surrounding it, forcing eveything to come in from the board edge that can't fly over it.
DEWWP army goes second: Same as above, except the shooting takes place on turn 3, so the game lasts a little longer. The portal carrier gets shot at by everything for 2 turns, rather than 1, so long as something can hit it turn 1.
ThePhish wrote:That's a simple one. No. WWP is too easy to defend against. Move away from the portal and shoot whatever comes out.
I think this might be easier said than done considering how much of the DE are Fleet.
Personally, I have a large cadre of Hellions come through the portal. 12" of movement, shooting, and then 6" assault is pretty far. They've been pretty successful, but I've only been playing in friendly games.
Dashofpepper wrote:
Foo wrote:So, kind of a tactical question then: do you feel a WWP can work in a competitive setting?
Yes, but not so much with a single portal. Two would serve much better.
I only recently understood the implications of Haemis being ICs and didn't realize you could split them up before, but I'm experimenting with multiple portals.
Right now, I'm going try out an Archon in a Venom with Incubi and a Haemi in a Raider with Wracks and see how that goes. I'll have Wyches, Hellions and a Talos in reserve.
I don't really ever expect to be competitive, though. I don't think I have the budget for it!
Dual portals can work well.
Providing you have fast units to come out of those portals.
You cannot deploy them too close as it may get surrounded.
I've had some luck with minimal TB units in venoms with WWP heamys. The TB can alpha strike a vehicle, heamy can detach and get out behind to drop the portal safely where it cant get surrounded, or if in the right area, can drop it out front for the extra range. Meanwhile a second WWP heamy has moved flat-out in a venom (or raider with sails) preferably out of LOS.
TB and heamy most likely die, and enemy moves away from the portal.
Half your reserves show up, while the second WWP heamy drop a portal near/in the enemy deployment zone, ready for your turn 3 reserves to come from behind, or support the initial portal forces.
I'd run ravagers, coupled with TB alpha strike they should cripple some part of the enemies forces and crack open transports.
From the portal preferably use fast units so the enemy cannot get away, wyches with a decent fleet roll, or beasts can do well.
Grenades will be important, haywire and offensive on units that can take them.
An interesting combo could be Baron + Malys.
Baron will help gain the first turn, and he can attach to a BM unit to give them grenades, while malys can shift units around and into/out of deployment. Giving you the perfect deployment in order to get that portal just where it needs to be.
WWP based lists can definitely competitive, but you need two to give you enough flexibility and like any Dark Eldar list you need to build your list to get the most out of your main strategy. There are a number of ways to build a Portal list, for starters you can do 1-2 suicide units in Raiders to deploy them or use Harlies for a slower but safer option. Then you can either go with an all out fast assault force arriving through the Portal (Beastmasters and Hellions), a slower Horde approach (Talos, Grotesques, footsloging Wracks and Wyches) or a combination of the two. I've been playing around with a Portal based list (mostly proxied atm) which has a single Raider for delivering 1 Portal but no other vehicles. 3 units of Beastmasters, 3 Talos (want to see if I can make them work), 2 units of Blaster Trueborn and a unit of Harlies. If you go first you drop 1 Portal as aggressively as you can (with the Raider) and the second with assault range of it with the Harlies. If you do second you only deploy the Harlies (the Raider if you can find a place to completely hide it), spread to max coherency with the Haemonculi on either end gets you 2 Portals about 24" apart. In DoW you use a troop unit and drop 1 Portal turn 1 and the second (from the Raider moving on) turn 2.
@ ThePhish. How are you deploying over 24" from the center of the board? With a tournament standard 6' x 4' this is impossible. If everything is fast then you might be able to manage to dodge a single Portal by moving into the corners, but to be competitive you need two anyway. 2 Portals deployed on the center line (or just past it if you aren't too worried about being blocked) spaced within assault range of fast units and a bit over 24" from the short edges means that unless your opponent can squeeze his entire army into the back few inches of each corner he is going to get by things T2.
@ dayve110. It sounds great in theory, but the Baron + Malys won't work because then you have no other HQ slots available to take the Portals.
I just wanted to take a second to thank you Dash for taking the considerable time and effort it must have taken to post this guide as well as stick around to explain some of the nuances(sp?) of the rules that can be used to a tactical advantage. I am VERY new to 40k (been plaing about 2 months now) and happened to pick a VERY tough first army. I found that your guide was extremely well written, in that it was easy to follow even for someone as new to the game as I am, and it was enjoyable to read. You have tought me a great way to play an army that I was having a difficult time trying to get a grip on.
I live in a small town, but we have a strong group of about 10 players locally that get togather once to twice a week for some friendly play. Several of us, like myself, are still new and have limited model choices. Therefore, most of the games we are playing atm are 1000 pt games. How does this look for a scaled back version of the Wych Cult army?
After reading your guide and thinking about what I'm used to seeing in my weekly games, there is one player whose tactics I can see giving me any issue. He playes Tau and like to line the back of his deployment zone with a hammerhead w/ rail gun and several broadsides with rail guns (which negate my FNP). He will then line kroot and firewarrior teams in front of the big guns to bog down my assult, while the rail cannons and seeker missles blow everything up. What would you suggest I do in this situation? I can't reach the high priority targets for an alpha strike if he lines them at the back of his deployment zone.
dayve110 wrote:You cannot deploy them too close as it may get surrounded.
You actually can - and I think you should.
So far I think the best positioning I used in a match is to drop em on a line perpendicular to the deploying sides, roughly in the middle of the table, and more or less within 15, 16'' each. One of them should be opened by turn 1. With 2 portals you can drop one in the middle of the table, the other in the middle of the enemy's army, and it won't matter where he goes, you'll always be able to assault him. If the opponent does not use an army that is quick to redeploy, you can open the portals more towards one side, and you'll be able to focus on a part of their army, so that he's either forced to move towards you, or to face the assault of all your reserves at once later in the game, with what remains of his own units.
Even if he surrounds the advanced portal, you can still come out with hovering units like hellions, bikes, talos... The others can come out from the portal that is opened in the back, and assault the models that surround your other portal. Flying troops instead (the Talos expecially) can come out of the advanced portal and just assault. In the opponent's turn, the other models will have to move into contact with yours, so the portal will be freed, giving you space to bring in more troops.
Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.
I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BAFAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.
Just chiming in to point out that the Psychic Pilot rule only makes the vehicle count as a psyker for psychic tests and psychic hoods. GW learned from their mistake in the BA Codex (!).
Dashofpepper wrote:Psykers: Dark Eldar have a piece of wargear in their arsenal that can kill every model in the Grey Knight army at once. A single piece of wargear that can table the entire enemy army for 20 points. Now....the chances of the GK player failing all those leadership tests is slim, but it could happen. And it *can* put a dent in the GK numbers. Warm up those suicide haemonculi.
RAW, the Crucible doesn't kill entire GK squads if they fail their test, it kills one guy per squad. It also has no effect on vehicles.
I'm not worried about the arguments. The GK codex is pretty clear on what is and isn't a psyker, and the BAFAQ has set precedence for vehicle psykers.
Just chiming in to point out that the Psychic Pilot rule only makes the vehicle count as a psyker for psychic tests and psychic hoods. GW learned from their mistake in the BA Codex (!).
*sigh*
Yes, because non-psykers can cast psychic powers. Again, please take this to YMDC.
Dashofpepper wrote:As a general request, if anyone wishes to discuss rules, could you go to YMDC? I'm quite familiar with the rules, the tactics I've posted follow accordingly, I can assure everyone that nothing I've posted breaks any of them, but rather follows them to the letter - and I would much rather this thread discuss the tactical value or variations of what I've written, or some Q&A about strategy than be muddled down having to explain rules to people.
It's fair enough for people to want to point out where they think rules in the tactica are incorrect. Extended debate should certainly take place elsewhere, though.
On that note, I feel I should point out that your Tank Shock strategy example is incorrect. Tank Shock only moves models that would actually wind up underneath the vehicle. You can't move other models in the unit to make way for them. So your Raider skimming across the front of the unit would force those Orks under the raider to move forwards or sideways (as there is no room for them to go anywhere else).... not force the whole unit to shuffle backwards.
The general theme of targeting / assaulting stuff is generally kill what can kill you easiest.
Now would you rather assault or shoot a marine army that has a thunderfire cannon?
I would rather assault the thunderfire cannon and shut down the shooting unless it is not in a bolstered ruins. I usually put on the negative ld in conjunction to the shock prows.
Its a good article and a must read for DE novices. For vets, its also a useful tool in relearning an army getting a new book. My only difference is I use razor flails because I like the reroll on both hits and wounds as S3 against T4 doesnt wound much.
so assuming you get the first turn, but your opponent smartly deploys at the back of his deployment zone some 30" away from your units so you will not get a first turn charge.
You move forward 12" and shoot off your alpha strike and prepare for his counter fire. Any suggestions on what to take down, avoid, how to position your models to keep some of them alive. Even after alpha striking some armies can take down a lot of cardboard boxes.
Dashofpepper wrote:It depends on how much shooting is in the daemon army, what kind of DE army you're playing....and if you reserve, you *also* come in piecemeal, with 3/4 of the daemon army on the table ready to engage your 1/2.
To a certain extent, perhaps. It does depend on the build, but also yours. I use 6 Venoms standard; goes a long way towards any infantry-based army like Daemons. Basically, if they are assault-based, I start on the table and play keep away, focusing on anything fast like Fiends and Screamers that can affect vehicles, using assault only on soft, support targets. If they are shooty, I reserve and make them deploy so that I can pick the weakest spot to exploit or make him commit to me. Even in their ultra-shootiest, Daemons just cannot pump out the firepower to really cripple a mech army and I can position myself well enough always have cover saves against anything scary. From there, I can outrange and assault soft targets like Heralds.
Anyway, I've played several different daemon players, including one that's one of the top 2-3 players in the area, and they have pretty much all the flavors of effective daemons represented (primarily Tzeentch shooting and Fiend swarm) and neither has presented a challenge. Last couple games, they have been tabled to a man or there was one lone daemon cowering in a corner to try to avoid the tabling, while not losing more than 25% of my army. It's not intended as a "brag;" I just don't see daemons as a threat. Of course, I learned how to beat them by playing orks for a year, so that might have something to do with it that you can understand.
I've had a game teamed up with some SW against CSM and Necrons and I ran into a problem...
How do you fare against 20 man troop necrons that are warped out of combat by the monolith, cause I couldn't win the close combat and then I'm shot to death or almost...
Maximillian wrote:I've had a game teamed up with some SW against CSM and Necrons and I ran into a problem...
How do you fare against 20 man troop necrons that are warped out of combat by the monolith, cause I couldn't win the close combat and then I'm shot to death or almost...
I suppose that depends on the list you're running....
Maximillian wrote:I've had a game teamed up with some SW against CSM and Necrons and I ran into a problem...
How do you fare against 20 man troop necrons that are warped out of combat by the monolith, cause I couldn't win the close combat and then I'm shot to death or almost...
If you are running a shooty list then you should have enough Splinter Cannon and Darklight fire (you won't hurt the Monolith with them so you might as well) to remove any of the more dangerous stuff like Destroyers pretty quickly, and then slowly chew through the Warriors with shooting.
If its an assault based list then you hit the Warriors with a couple of units of Wyches at once (or Incubi if your feeling nasty), win by a few then watch them fail morale and you just about automatically sweep them (which removes the unit with no chance of WWB).
Powerguy wrote: @ ThePhish. How are you deploying over 24" from the center of the board? With a tournament standard 6' x 4' this is impossible.
Technically speaking... over 24" from the center is easily done. My comment was however not very clearly written after re-reading it and it doesn't make much sense. The point of it was to deploy as far away as possible.
Powerguy wrote: If everything is fast then you might be able to manage to dodge a single Portal by moving into the corners, but to be competitive you need two anyway. 2 Portals deployed on the center line (or just past it if you aren't too worried about being blocked) spaced within assault range of fast units and a bit over 24" from the short edges means that unless your opponent can squeeze his entire army into the back few inches of each corner he is going to get by things T2.
This is for an army going 2nd against a wwp army.
To defend against the portals, don't move, but deploy into 1 corner as much as possible, everything. The portals are great and wonderful for getting fast ground units across the board in a hurry. The thing they also do is bottleneck anything coming out of it since the army is emerging from 3"ø holes rather than an entire board edge. Every unit that comes out of it is in the way of every other unit that comes behind it when moving directly at the enemy. If all of the enemy is in 1 direction, such as a corner, it adds more distance that has to be traveled by the footsloggers emerging from the portal as they have to go around each other. In addition, most of the units emerging from a portal are larger than 10 models to make them more durable, therefore, they take up space.
I understand there will most likely be 2 portals. The above defense for it still works, b/c anything emerging from the 2nd portal, further away from your army in the corner, still has to go around everything else that came from the first portal. If they opt to not deploy the 2nd portal to move it into a better location, then nothing is coming out of it unitl turn 3.
Granted, it's not fool proof, nothing ever is. It limits what can make it into cc turn 1, which is what wwp armies are built for, and they don't hold up well to being shot, which is what's going to happen to everything that couldn't make it into cc.
You got me thinking about the music I listen to before I play DE. I never realized it utill I started thinking about it but I will always listen to "Instruments of Destruction" by N.G.R and "Hunger" by Spectre General. these are off of the "Transformers - the Movie" Soundtrack. The Cartoon form the Late 80's.
@Dash
Your best advice here is the psychological one. Always play your opponent. Very good advice indeed...
I also love the examples you brought how to irritate your opponent.
It is not only what you are doing, it is about how you do it. Being an actor helps a lot to understand this.
thanks for posting the guide dash. well done. i wont touch on your "Attitude" since its been done already. but overal nice guide.
question for you:
how would you trim the list to fit in an 1850 pt tourney? the 3 games i tried this list out in at 2k WTFPWNED, so i think im going to try your "darklight storm" in an upcoming tourney. i believe 1850 is the points. obviously the 3 ravagaers are go, and i like the blaster trueborn in venoms too much to really trim them.. so the question is: loose some warriors or the wychs?
DarthSpader wrote:thanks for posting the guide dash. well done. i wont touch on your "Attitude" since its been done already. but overal nice guide.
question for you:
how would you trim the list to fit in an 1850 pt tourney? the 3 games i tried this list out in at 2k WTFPWNED, so i think im going to try your "darklight storm" in an upcoming tourney. i believe 1850 is the points. obviously the 3 ravagaers are go, and i like the blaster trueborn in venoms too much to really trim them.. so the question is: loose some warriors or the wychs?
I dropped one trueborn from each squad and 1 wych from 3 of the wych squads. Working perfectly so far.
I have a question, in your section on Tank Shock, could you use that to make a unit out of cohesion? - And thus make it do nothing for a turn?
No. The owner of the unit moves them out of the way during the Tank Shock (although he doesn't really get to pick where they go), but they have to maintain coherency throughout.
DarthSpader wrote:thanks for posting the guide dash. well done. i wont touch on your "Attitude" since its been done already. but overal nice guide.
question for you:
how would you trim the list to fit in an 1850 pt tourney? the 3 games i tried this list out in at 2k WTFPWNED, so i think im going to try your "darklight storm" in an upcoming tourney. i believe 1850 is the points. obviously the 3 ravagaers are go, and i like the blaster trueborn in venoms too much to really trim them.. so the question is: loose some warriors or the wychs?
Darklight Storm doesn't have any wyches in it. =p Just warriors in venoms.
Dash, are you played vs new GK's already? If yes vs what kind, and with what result? shunt\purifiers+rifledreads\something with vindicare? (with wyches list)
I have a question, in your section on Tank Shock, could you use that to make a unit out of cohesion? - And thus make it do nothing for a turn?
No. The owner of the unit moves them out of the way during the Tank Shock (although he doesn't really get to pick where they go), but they have to maintain coherency throughout.
Wow that came off harsh... let me retype...
The Bold part is not true as far as i know. I'm pretty sure you can knock models out of coherency with tank shocks
penek wrote:Dash, are you played vs new GK's already? If yes vs what kind, and with what result? shunt\purifiers+rifledreads\something with vindicare? (with wyches list)
I've played against Rifledread spam (6 of them) paired with Coteaz and henchmen (7 psykers + 1 jokero), against Rifledread spam teamed up with GK strike squads, interceptors and purifiers and...paladins I think they were. The two wound terminators. I've also played against Henchmen backed up by Vindicare and Dreadknight, and a mixed razorback/chimera list.
I've managed to win them all, but a couple of them were by margins too close for comfort. I narrowly edged out a C&C game against Hulksmash by killing off his troop choices and hunkering down my remaining troop choice on my objective (that was in 5+ cover) and using my (two?) remaining vehicles to flat out in front of them to give them 4+ so they could go to ground for a 3+ cover save.
It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army.
In general, Vindicares haven't had any luck against me. One game had him miss, followed by a flickerfield save, followed by him being dead. Another game he died in the first turn. There's no point trying to shield-break a 5+ invulnerable save on an AV10 vehicle when you're probably going to penetrate it and 66% chance of it going through the flickerfield.
I'm enjoying learning about them, and have even assembled a couple variants of Henchmen/GK combo armies to play with on Vassal for giggles. Hopefully that's the closest I ever come to using Imperium wimps.
I state the following due to a few recent questions posted above: Models underneath or within 1" of the vehicle tank shocking must not only move by the shortest route BUT must also remain within unit coherency (unit coherancy is spelled out in the rules very concisely). The requirement to stay within unit coherency could result in the models moving a significant distance.
Also it is important to keep in mind that the procedure for Tank Shocking requires you to 1) aim the vehicle (pivot) in the direction you wish to tank shock 2) then declare the exact distance the vehicle will move 3) then move the vehicle straight ahead - no shimmying the vehicle to the side and no further pivots allowed during or after the move. Dash's pincer technique requires alot of finess.
wyomingfox wrote: Dash's pincer technique requires alot of finess.
Yes...it is an "advanced, advanced" tactic. I think I've managed to pull it off twice. Ever. I'm not good enough yet for that kind of range estimation and practice.
GK in general won't be a "huge" threat to DE. You may have to sweat it out with good players like Hulksmash, but that's a testament more to the player than the Codex. The average GK list will be battleforce-y, small in number, and short in range... easy pickings for the DE.
Are Crucible of Maledictions really that good? They seem pretty 'meh' to me...
Too many people consider units in 40k as "Did it get its points back for me?"
Its not awesome, its not wonderful, it rarely does anything, but its worth having in your list because there are situations where it can be extremely potent.
DarknessEternal wrote:Worst case scenario with Cruicible: No enemy psykers: you have a 20 point deficit.
Big deal.
Best case scenario: You kill hundreds of points worth your enemies most important units: you win the game.
Best case scenario is that you lead your opponent around by the nose controlling both his deployment and target priority as his battle plans become fixated on a 20 point piece of wargear.
I'm happy to be the first general to report back from the battlefield with good news.
I've used all elements but the Mind-games presented in this guide and i've wiped the floor with the oponents presented before me. One of those conceded the game right before the Tabling (mostly because he was in a hurry).
I'm not a good actor and i don't think i'll be able to unnerve my oponent with the mind-games, i'll practice nonetheless. I refuse to doubt the usage of every single information found in the first post.
These stuff works, people, its not just a thread to improve one's ego (what some people might think).
I'll admit, i had my doubts at first, mostly because anyone can make sense about anything on the internet (specially on dakka), but this is not the case! This is competitive tactica! Playtested and approved from a guy that played 3 times before reading it and, now enlightened, already beaten to the point of tabling all the competitive players around.
Thanks Dash, and a special thank to all the people that made questions, commented and improved this wonderful thread.
DarknessEternal wrote:Worst case scenario with Cruicible: No enemy psykers: you have a 20 point deficit.
Big deal.
Best case scenario: You kill hundreds of points worth your enemies most important units: you win the game.
Best case scenario is that you lead your opponent around by the nose controlling both his deployment and target priority as his battle plans become fixated on a 20 point piece of wargear.
do you spring for a TGL on 1 raider? 5 points that can really help your chances. And those 5 points might help even if the enemy has no psykers.
Tavitin wrote:I'm happy to be the first general to report back from the battlefield with good news.
I've used all elements but the Mind-games presented in this guide and i've wiped the floor with the oponents presented before me. One of those conceded the game right before the Tabling (mostly because he was in a hurry).
I'm not a good actor and i don't think i'll be able to unnerve my oponent with the mind-games, i'll practice nonetheless. I refuse to doubt the usage of every single information found in the first post.
These stuff works, people, its not just a thread to improve one's ego (what some people might think).
I'll admit, i had my doubts at first, mostly because anyone can make sense about anything on the internet (specially on dakka), but this is not the case! This is competitive tactica! Playtested and approved from a guy that played 3 times before reading it and, now enlightened, already beaten to the point of tabling all the competitive players around.
Thanks Dash, and a special thank to all the people that made questions, commented and improved this wonderful thread.
Bwah ha ha...yes my evil minions! Go forth and conquer the unworthy in the name of the Dark City.
"It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army. "
Dash do not take it so hard. It sounds like you play Hulksmash a lott, so he probably knows a lott of your tricks. Also, while it was the first time for him with a new codex it probably was the first time for you against the same codex?
If IG gunlines have trouble with GK then that is a good thing for the DE as IG gunlines will become less popular.
I am shure you will be polishing the battlefields of warhammer knightly grey with red spots on top once you get the gang of it. :-)
ive been using "mind games" for a while. it can help a bit, ill admit. the whole "mind rage" thing tho... thats a little off for me as im generally a pretty easy going guy. that said, ive now played 5 games using this guide, not the mindset stuff but other info, some of which i knew and some i did not, and as a result ive won my last 5 games. each time my opponennt "called it" after his 4-5th turn - wich i take a result of my tabling him. the most recent victory was a 3000 pt apocalypse game in which i sucsessfully ganked and assploded a reaver titan without it even firing a shot. (i was also fielding a titan, my revenant, which ive re socialized to the dark side)
ive also fought a grey knights army twice recently. both games ended fast, simply because the sheer speed and mobility of the venoms avoided his 24" guns, and proceeded to shred him with splinter and lance fire. even the so called "shunt punt" failed. the trick failed horribly when after his scout shunt move, i revealed my vect/malys combo to reposistion my army to shoot the #$%# out of him, but also steal init on a 4+. "thanks for teleporting your expensive stuff right up into range of me. much obliged! </insert sound of massed splinter cannons shredding dreadknight>
Niiai wrote:"It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army. "
Dash do not take it so hard. It sounds like you play Hulksmash a lott, so he probably knows a lott of your tricks. Also, while it was the first time for him with a new codex it probably was the first time for you against the same codex?
If IG gunlines have trouble with GK then that is a good thing for the DE as IG gunlines will become less popular.
I am shure you will be polishing the battlefields of warhammer knightly grey with red spots on top once you get the gang of it. :-)
qft....
i hope to see an end to the mech guard armies....
I have nothing to offer further to this tactica other than I humbly submit this music for motivation to getting the correct mindset for a competitive game.
Niiai wrote:"It is disconcerting that Hulksmash and other folks using an army for the first time can fight me to a near standstill the first time ever fielding their army. "
Dash do not take it so hard. It sounds like you play Hulksmash a lott, so he probably knows a lott of your tricks. Also, while it was the first time for him with a new codex it probably was the first time for you against the same codex?
If IG gunlines have trouble with GK then that is a good thing for the DE as IG gunlines will become less popular.
I am shure you will be polishing the battlefields of warhammer knightly grey with red spots on top once you get the gang of it. :-)
It wont kill IG mech. This happens with every new codex release, it takes a while for everyone to get the hang of fighting a new army. Everyone adapts and moves on. Dash will keep playing DE and keep smashing face.
I love your OP and especially the part 1 of getting in the right mindset, it really works: my Skimmers prove to be almost invurnable vs Melta weapons.
I just wanted your opinion on the following points:
-Why do need 9 wyches, only for the HWG? I'm typically running smaller squads: 6-8 and still happy with their performance, since I don't value the S3 attacks in CC as much as Agonisers
-I see you prefer not to use Special Weapons for Wyches, personally I always add an Shardnet & Impaler: they help a lot vs PF, Dreadnaughts, IC's and other nasty attack I don't want to hit my wyches to often. I feel it adds to their strength: refusing to die in CC.
-I use Grisley Trophies (GT) and Enhanced Aethersails (EA) on my CC Raiders. I like the GT as a safety for when I fail to win my CC, it happens you roll bad in CC. The EA may be less obvious to use since 24" is already far but I like to be able to show my opponent that he really can't hide. I can reach every corner on the table now with my CC raiders.
-Do you advise to use any HQ other than Heamies? Like an Archon kitted. Per example I now run a Archon kitted to kill of IC's in 2 rounds of combat: with an Electrocorrosive Whip, Blast Pistol, SF, CD and Soul Trap. He loves Runepriest, Priests and the likes. I added the CD for some more effectiveness. Ok I can see this isn't maybe to most point-effective build but I do like his results so far. I see him as a glass cannon: if he is aimed vs the right squads he can quickly move up to S6 and becomes a killing power which hacks through anything. If he can get to S10 vehicles and dreadnoughts fear him too.
Warning: these topics might have been discussed before a lot but I do wanted to question some:
-I my reading of the rules you can't add 2,5" to the movement of 12" before you disembark by rotating your transport. It simply is a 14,5" move which disallows disembarking. I must say I maybe play too much by the rules because in tournaments I typically see people steel inches during lots of movement: for example move the first model 6" and move other models freely up to him, even if they were more than 6" away. Another example is during the pile in 6" isn't measured for every model, they just get moved in BTB.
So my question is: since some of your tactics involve precise movement in inches during counter pile-in: how do you get your opponent to keep move only 6" with every model? Do you measure every model he moves?
-In your diagram of avoiding the Powerclaw: shouldn't the Wyches assault the big block of Orks, instead of the Nob? You need to lock the claw out of combat, right?
Wyches are best served as a counter-attack unit, or to hammer on units specializing in ranged firepower. If I need to tackle a dedicated close combat unit, I'd prefer to either shoot the gak out of it first, or assault it with my beast unit - which at least has rending to go along with the volume of attacks.
Shardnet/Impalers: There are plenty of threads discussing wych weapons and these in particular. Against a halfway competent opponent, they are NOT going to get their utility against your listed targets, with the exception of dreadnoughts. If you're assaulting dreadnoughts with wyches...you have issues.
Grisly Trophies and Enhanced Aethersails. Chances are, if I'm assaulting with one unit of wyches, I'm assaulting with 2-4 units of wyches. Enhanced Aethersails...not so useful. You can reach the entire board by turn two anyway - enhanced aethersails don't let you do anything you couldn't already do. They'd be useful if they were used in the movement phase and didn't count against your movement speed, but....alas, it is not meant to be.
HQs: There's another thread near the top of the tactics discussion at the moment about DEHQs. Give it a read. Also one about Lady Malys where I linked that same thread.
Rotation: Rotating a raider does not count towards your movement. If you have a 12" long and 1" thin vehicle, rotating on its axis does not mean you've already moved 6". The rulebook EXPLICITLY tells you that rotation does not count against your movement, and that it is a free action. Don't tell me that you play by the rules and won't do it, because thems *is* the rules.
Precise movement: If my opponent's movement, reaction, pile-in, etc is critical to my strategy, I have a tactical template. I give it to them to use if they don't have their own. At major events, most players have one anyway. If someone starts to cheat by freehanding their model movement to gain extra inches, I ask them to put the models back and measure it carefully. I too follow the rules and expect my opponents to do the same.
El_Jairo wrote:I now run a Archon kitted to kill of IC's in 2 rounds of combat: with an Electrocorrosive Whip, Blast Pistol, SF, CD and Soul Trap. He loves Runepriest, Priests and the likes.
The blast pistol is a waste, he will rarely get to fire it and if he does its likely to just be another wound that doesnt count toward combat res. Electrocorrosive whip sucks. Why half an unkilled model's strength when you could just ID them with a huskblade.
For an archon there are only so many weapon builds:
Venom blade for low save armies,
Agonizer for cheap,
Djin Blade+Blaster if you want to be able to shoot,
Huskblade for the most leathal CC monster
The only reason I can imagine for an electrocorrosive whip is if you know your opponent has a lot of EW models like daemons, and you shoot daemons or use a venom blade in CC.
Cheers for your answers. It helps a lot to get my game a lot more competitive. Certainly since I'm playing a tournament again this Sunday.
I will certainly check out that DEHQ thread.
I think I see the points you make on Shardnet and other. So far the shardnet is working for me but I can't evaluate if it justifies it's points.
On the 12" move: since everybody is allowing it, I'm dropping my point about not gaining 2,5" during transport to get into CC. I just think if you extrapolate this logic your could say you turn a million times and achieve an 48" transportation with a 12" move ;-)
@Exergy: you might have a point on the weapon outload. I tried it more for reasons to do something different. I must say it works some time: halving S is quite a life-saver. But true, for the points of the Blast Pistol I could upgrade it to the Huskblade but that doesn't wound better that the El W. Since Agonisers don't kill IC's in one turn of CC I thought, why not try something else?
The other point is: it typically the BP kills one marine before combat, that is one I don't have to kill any more during CC. And with one marine it makes it's points back .
So basically I don't use the huskblade because it is too expensive.
El_Jairo wrote:
@Exergy: you might have a point on the weapon outload. I tried it more for reasons to do something different. I must say it works some time: halving S is quite a life-saver. But true, for the points of the Blast Pistol I could upgrade it to the Huskblade but that doesn't wound better that the El W. Since Agonisers don't kill IC's in one turn of CC I thought, why not try something else?
The other point is: it typically the BP kills one marine before combat, that is one I don't have to kill any more during CC. And with one marine it makes it's points back .
So basically I don't use the huskblade because it is too expensive.
As Dash says making your points back is a horrible scale to compare things to. A normal pistol can probably kill a marine yet it costs just 1 point. You dont take things to get their points back, you take things if they can get 10x their points back. A properly kitted archon should expect to be able to mow through marines. A squad with melta guns should be able to kill big tanks that are more expensive than they are. You take 20pts of melta guns on a squad thinking, "Im gonna bag me a landraider!" Adding a blast pistol on an archon makes him 10% more expensive, but it doesnt make him 10% deadlier or any more survivable, most of his deadliness coems from CC. Shooting adds practically nothing.
In order to use the blast pistol you need to position your very expensive archon in a very specific situation where he is right smack in front of a unit you dont think will flee from shooting (if they have combat tactics, NEVER shoot). Its much much better to be more versitile with your archon and be able to fleet to your target and charge. The archon is a CC character, if you want to shoot take a haemi
Automatically Appended Next Post: even with half strength an enemy IC is still a threat. What if he has a force weapon or really high S to begin with. What if he has a posioned weapon(ignores half strength)
Huskblade also helps you vs Nobs, Paladins, Nids. It was made for the soul trap combo. If you are taking the soul trap you may as well spring for the huskblade. If not then you should stick with the agonizer and no soul trap.
El_Jairo wrote:
On the 12" move: since everybody is allowing it, I'm dropping my point about not gaining 2,5" during transport to get into CC. I just think if you extrapolate this logic your could say you turn a million times and achieve an 48" transportation with a 12" move ;-)
No...you cannot. When you measure movement, you need to do it consistently from one point of the vehicle - because your ultimate movement is measured from starting position to ending position. So I measure from the front of my base. I move 12", and can freely spin the raider around as many times as I want - but I'm still only moving the model 12" forward.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:My only query is; why would you use Dark E ldar in the first place?
Well, the choices fall out like this:
Dark, powerful, dominating, speedy, supercool, lethality contained in being that never age because they sip on the tortured agonies of devoured souls..
OR
Light, weak, fragile, rainbow colored, emotionally sensitive, "my race was destroyed by my own lust," tall-hat wearing lisping weaklings who lose an entire craftworld to a being that the lowliest Dark Eldar can destroy single-handedly.
Given a choice between being a GOD amongst the rest of all the inferior species, and being a weak and rainbow colored object of scorn, you can see that I chose the powerful route.
Good solid tactical advice Dash. And a very interesting read! I have been wondering about starting a DE force for a while now and thou this is slightly off topic I wondered if you had any advice for me regarding what should be in my first 1000pts?
I do have a predilection for getting stuck in, up close and personal.
I also wanted to pick your brain on Mandrakes, as all I have read and heard seems to indicate that they are not all that great. The problem being I really like the mini's and wanted at least a squad in my army!
Re. The music part of things, I always try to listen to specific songs before playing a game. 'Better than you' by Metallica has to be one of my favourites!
Thanks again for posting this thread and for taking the time to share your advice with the rest of us.
I think Mandrakes are useless in a competitive army, and in terms of what you should get for your first 1,000 points....well, it depends on the kind of army you want to make - and there are several threads (predominantly in army discussion) where the same question gets asked and answered over and over. Go check 'em out.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I also wanted to pick your brain on Mandrakes, as all I have read and heard seems to indicate that they are not all that great. The problem being I really like the mini's and wanted at least a squad in my army!
D
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I also wanted to pick your brain on Mandrakes, as all I have read and heard seems to indicate that they are not all that great. The problem being I really like the mini's and wanted at least a squad in my army!
D
Count as wracks, so easy....
Or put them on hellion skyboard's and use them as beast masters, takes a bit of work, but they can look awesome.
Great general gameplay tips, but I was hoping the lovely Dark Eldar range of models would lend themselves to more varied lists than spamspammityspamspamspam.
withershadow wrote:Great general gameplay tips, but I was hoping the lovely Dark Eldar range of models would lend themselves to more varied lists than spamspammityspamspamspam.
there are a lot of different list options with a few unit choices. Its better than it was when there were only really 3 competitive choices in the whole dex. They cant fix it all at once.
withershadow wrote:Great general gameplay tips, but I was hoping the lovely Dark Eldar range of models would lend themselves to more varied lists than spamspammityspamspamspam.
There are a lot more varied lists than the three types and configurations that I advocate (Wych Cult, Kabal, and WWP). I'm a tournament player - I expect everyone to bring the most devastating army that they have to the field against me, and the Dark Eldar codex is not made out of 25% cheese, 50% epic win, and 25% units to pass over like certain other codexes. From a competitive standpoint, there are 3 serious builds that work, with differing flavors to them. From a non-competitive standpoint, there are a lot more themes available.
If you fall into the latter category, I announced at the beginning of this thread in the OP that this thread wasn't for people like you. If you fall into the former category, you already know and understand what I just said and wouldn't have been hoping for more varied competitive opportunities.
Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...
I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.
If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.
You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.
wisdomseyes1 wrote:Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...
I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.
If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.
You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.
Am I the only one who realizes that we have a Rules forum for these questions and that this is the Tactics forum? Please take this kind of questions/critique to YMDC.
wisdomseyes1 wrote:Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...
I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.
If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.
You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.
If you move the 12" and then pivot, the point furthest forward on your vehicle is 12" + 1/2 the length of the vehicle.
The vehicle only moves 12", but for purposes of disembarking, you can disembark anywhere within up to 2" of the hull. This includes the 2" from the pivot, which means the guys inside the vehicle have gotten out around 15" from where the vehicle started.
Literally an entire page of this thread was dedicated to addressing that, and I think that there were even relevant links to threads in YMDC, and quotes from pages of the rulebook. Jumping onto the end of a thread to post something demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of the movement rules, while also showing that you didn't have the courtesy to read the thread before posting....not cool.
I presume that you're not a tournament player - movement and pivoting is not a contentious issue in competitive circles because the rules are explicitly clear on it. If you have further need to discuss the issue, check out YMDC forum, and find one of the threads about pivoting. Or, if reading and research isn't your thing....just make a new thread and someone will link you to one of the discussions about it.
I actually was reading the thread... but I stopped at page 6. for the first 5 pages... no one questioned the pivoting. They called it cheesy, but that is not questioning it... just accepting it with contempt. I will find the topic.
And yes... i am a tournament player thank you very much. i have always allowed people to do this until about a week ago, when the rule was discussed on a different site and very good points were brought up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Foo wrote:
wisdomseyes1 wrote:Am i the only one who realizes that you can not gain an extra 2" of movement by deploying sideways...
I understand why people believe this... as i did for a wile. But the rules are pretty clear about how movement works. You measure before you move. You can not pivot and then move.
If you want to try and say, "But pivoting doesn't count as moving!" You would be right... except... that only applies if you only pivot. Pivoting ALONE does not count as moving.
You measure the distance moved before you pivot, so you gain nothing. Unless one would argue that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.
If you move the 12" and then pivot, the point furthest forward on your vehicle is 12" + 1/2 the length of the vehicle.
The vehicle only moves 12", but for purposes of disembarking, you can disembark anywhere within up to 2" of the hull. This includes the 2" from the pivot, which means the guys inside the vehicle have gotten out around 15" from where the vehicle started.
Make sense?
But this is untrue...
you move and then pivot, which means you are moving past the maximum distance a vehicle can move. Like ALL other models in 40k, you measure before you move. Pivoting, when it is the only thing you do, does not count as moving. You measure, then move and pivot as much as you want as long as you don't move past the distance that you measured before you move.
Again... arguing the ability to do this would be saying that vehicles are immune to basic rules of the game.
--------------------------------------------------------------- What does YMDC stand for... people say it all the time but the glossary gives me nothing.
wisdomseyes1 wrote:What does YMDC stand for... people say it all the time but the glossary gives me nothing.
wisdomeyes1: If you will notice, the acronym turns yellow(not this bright shade though), which the curser will reveal, as ShaiAhlude pointed out, is You Make Da Call.
Run a poll in the YMDC forum and see how many people agree/disagree with you about 'pivoting' to gain inches.
Indeed....there have actually already been YMDC threads and polls about it. Pretty unanimous too because the rules are quite clear on pivoting. Especially the part where you are told that pivoting does not count towwrds or against movement. If you want to house rule it in your own games, that is fine. In a tournament, if you start fussing about it, your opponent is going to laugh at you, clip open the Rulebook and give you 30 seconds to get on the same page, or call over the TO who will tell you to stop wasting his time.
First of all, I want to apologize for bashing you in another forum. I had a preconceived idea and was wrong. For that, I apologize.
Secondly, that was a crapton of reading. Reading the advice, reviews and tactics and then this ten page monstrosity... I need to take a break after this.
Thirdly, Mudvayne? You couldn't go more epic like Kataklysm's Ambassador of Pain? Much more fitting in my eyes. C'mon... The song title says enough. I also find the Viking themed Amon Amarth to be an excellent theme for Dark Eldar. I've always psyched up for 40k games. I played a lot of Emperor's Children pure sonic lists before my whole army was made useless.
As for psychology in 40k... It does exist. I've had one or more turns turned to my favor by having a certain friendly buxom lass come and faun over opponent's model at just the right moment. Using psychology and diversions to your advantage? Yes. Dirty? Absolutely? Worth the time and effort for the sex object? You better believe it.
Now for the rest... That was amazing. I've always love Dark Eldar lore, but stayed away from the army due to the hideous first gen models. With the re-release, I've jumped in with both feet and have already amassed a huge army (I love Apoc games). This was a great article. Not only did it change my player prospective, after reading it, I can distinctly recall previous mistakes in past games more clearly.
Personal thought/request: I would love to see some video BatReps.
Finally, Morgan? Have you ever tried Sailor Jerry? That's my rum of choice. Always has been. Always will be.
Woe to my local club. Soon I shall savor the lamentation of their women.
One dick thing I have found out that works really well is that with a trueborn squad in a raider, rather than in a venom can get plenty of side armor shots on vehicles, especially space marine vehicles.
Because of the increased length on the raider, I have found myself getting into range with blasterborn much more often than in a venom. It saved my ass against a grey knight player when I got past a cover save because I could manage a side armor shot.
Other than that, i feel music like this suits Dark Eldar much more than most other types of Metal. When I hear Amon Amarth, I think Space Wolves, honestly.
While true that the pillagers did that, most Vikings were not raiders, most were tradesmen and fishermen if they had anything to do with the water in the first instance.
Xelkireth wrote:To be fair, Vikings (aka the pillagers, looters and rapists of the Dark Ages) fit more into Dark Eldar mythos than that of Space Pups.
Exept that the Space Wolves have a very relaxed relationship to death with grim humour on it like Viking culture had (if we are to belive the mythis) while Dark Eldar are quite squimish about the whole Slanesh draining there soul. Vikings where not vampiers. And vikings did not have a lott of aristocratic thinkering.
But get back on topic. Do not sidetrack with fluff discusion.
Xelkireth wrote:To be fair, Vikings (aka the pillagers, looters and rapists of the Dark Ages) fit more into Dark Eldar mythos than that of Space Pups.
Exept that the Space Wolves have a very relaxed relationship to death with grim humour on it like Viking culture had (if we are to belive the mythis) while Dark Eldar are quite squimish about the whole Slanesh draining there soul. Vikings where not vampiers. And vikings did not have a lott of aristocratic thinkering.
But get back on topic. Do not sidetrack with fluff discusion.
Squeamish? Have you read the codex? We revel in it. We suck your souls out of your tormented body and sup on the substance of your life energy. Our Craftworld cousins are the squeamish ones.
How do any of your Dark Eldar lists respond to having the initiative seized from them?
I don't mean against Vect, Cato, Coteaz, or anything where it's more likely to happen, just the run of the mill 1/6 chance where you thought you were going first, but now aren't.
DarknessEternal wrote:How do any of your Dark Eldar lists respond to having the initiative seized from them?
I don't mean against Vect, Cato, Coteaz, or anything where it's more likely to happen, just the run of the mill 1/6 chance where you thought you were going first, but now aren't.
Well, going by his examples of the two games he lost with his DE, they respond by losing.
DarknessEternal wrote:How do any of your Dark Eldar lists respond to having the initiative seized from them?
I don't mean against Vect, Cato, Coteaz, or anything where it's more likely to happen, just the run of the mill 1/6 chance where you thought you were going first, but now aren't.
Well, going by his examples of the two games he lost with his DE, they respond by losing.
Well that is a problem when you have paper airplanes with squishy T3 guys. You may have a boatload of cannons at the start but when 1/3 of them are dead it kind of sucks.
Seizing is the big problem otherwise hopefully you can place them behind cover or at worse, reserve things. Speed is your ally but the king is getting the first shot.
Not necessarily. It's certainly a problem, but most people don't deploy 2nd and bank on seizing the initiative. Therefore, maybe 9/10 times of being seized on, your opponent can't crush 1/3 of your boats b/c they aren't set up to do it. Also, DE should be deploying the way Dash shows his deployent on page 1, granting cover saves to 75% of the army and let the ones in front bank on a flickerfield save.
DarknessEternal wrote:How do any of your Dark Eldar lists respond to having the initiative seized from them?
I don't mean against Vect, Cato, Coteaz, or anything where it's more likely to happen, just the run of the mill 1/6 chance where you thought you were going first, but now aren't.
Hi! I'm a friend of Dashofpepper. He no longer has posting privileges on Dakka, and is merging into Hulksmash's blog to write his tactical articles and battle reports from. You can find it here: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com/ He will probably get this guide and his other ones moved over there sooner or later and be able to respond and answer questions.
All this jazz http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/370360.page But we arent supposed to talk about members who are not with us at the moment. (apologies to MODs possibly reading this for bending the rules)
Also, he is not banned, just suspended.
If you haven't done this before, play around with your models near a table edge to get a feel for the pattern and unit dispersal you need to accomplish it. Dayve110 added a sample picture on page 2, which isn't quite what I was after...the picture I'm trying to draw would look like a large scale of this:
) Without Dash's and Ketara's advice, I would still be running things that have no place at a Grand Tourney level, because I was basing all of 
Guess I got Ninja'd.
Warning: these topics might have been discussed before a lot but I do wanted to question some:
ldar in the first place?